Everton climb higher in money league

With our fan base and top 8 finish each year we should be more active in improving the squad.
I see lots of teams that consistently finish BELOW us making moves to strengthen their squads.

As I have said ad nauseum...DM has been like Penn & Teller trying and mostly achieving the miracle of turnings sows ears into silk purses.
He creates and the board sell or loan out EVERY season.
He gets a portion of any transfer fee and sometimes none so what does anyone expect ??

We know our salaries are about right in terms of the clubs worth but our spend in the transfer market is woefull and is the primary reason we cannot sustain a challenge.

Moyes has brought in good players and made them better. The clubs policy has been to then offer these players higher salaries. I have no problem with that because we should try to retain our best players, but is it too much to ask the club to but in ready made talent to supplement our team?

Trevor L, my impression with Moyes is that even with a modest net spend we could make considerable strides. Yet again we're seeing other teams, in this case Newcastle, strengthening their squads while we sit hoping for injuries to sort themselves out. The link between money and success is depressingly obvious but I really believe we don't need City or Chelseas level of investment, or even that of Spurs or Liverpool to make a difference.

Maybe im being a bit naive but Im strongly of the opinion that even a modest investment above what we've had over the past three years would see us making a right good go at the top four, and get us above the 'best of the rest'.

We pay our first team players on a par, if not more than Spurs. Fellaini is on a reported £75k a week. Do you think Heitinga would be warming the bench if he wasn't on £60k a week?

Spurs were in the mix for the title last season, and Harry got the boot because they finished 4th, when Levy expected them to finish higher.

Heitinga was bought unapposed and Im certain that if any other club wanted him we would sell him.
He and Bily have proved to be pretty poor acquisitions who no one else bid for.
I have consistently said that in my opinion Heitinga is the worst Dutch international I have seen.

We loan out lots of players each season and lead us to believe it is for them to obtain experience.
Personally I believe its a cost cutting excersise.

Now look at Man U And City and compare their top wages to ours....in fact I imagine their lowest wages are comparable to our highest.

May I challenge this half-assed, 'unambitious 40-point,' theory that you've read about on ToffeeWeb, and subsequently assumed to be gospel..?

David Moyes's points tally in each season he's managed us, reads as thus: 56, 54. 61, 63, 65, 58, 50, 61, 39, 59 & 43.

Now, can we put this idiotic & fictitious notion to bed?

I sincerely apologise if you don't regard that as " being in the mix".

I think they were in with a shout though, as did many ex-pro's and obviously their Chairman, who sacked their manager for such a poor finish.

When you consider the gulf in size between Everton and Fulham, not only in terms of the stadiums, but also fan base and commercial opportunity, you have to pose the question, are Fulham maximising their every opportunity or are Everton seriously under performing financially?! I tend to think it's a mixture of the two but again, serious questions should be posed of our Board in respect to the top line health of the business. Many may point to growing top line revenue in recent years, but its comparative and I'm not convinced we are maximising our opportunities. Ok, we charge one of the lowest Premier League rates for match days, but we can generate revenue in other ways, not necessarily by increasing ticket prices.

The key is not so much as in the absolute numbers, but the relative proportions of each. You can't compare between clubs in different leagues, as the broadcast TV distribution is very different.

What struck me as a Blue was how dependent we are on broadcast revenue as a proportion of our total turnover. Matchday is constrained by the stadium (corporate boxes go down as matchday normally), but commercial is woeful. LFC's next accounts will show their commercial income alone outstrips our total turnover.

The growth of the overseas TV deal in recent years has meant there are multi-tiered sponsorship opportunities to be sold. Now every commercial entity wants a Man Utd, or a Liverpool, but they can't always pay the price. That's where clubs like Everton should be muscling in. Some of these sponsors will do a "try before you buy" approach of sponsoring a lower cost club, seeing if the return on investment stacks up, and decide whether to go for a top tier club, stick with what they have, or pull out.

Man U, as the top commercial performer has, so far in 2013 (which is 24 days old!) struck deals with:
- Japanese paint manufacturer Kansai
- the China Construction Bank
- Wahaha soft drinks, part of the Hangzhou Wahaha group

This hot on the heels of cancelling a 10 year £4m per annum training kit sponsorship deal with DHL, as they realise they've under-valued it!

Now obviously Man U are the top end of the extreme, but I don't accept that in recent years when we had a Chinese sponsor, Thai sponsor, Chinese players (okay they weren't great), the top Australian player, the US goalie and their top player on loan, that we couldn't have done just a little bit better than Bargain Booze or Pukka Pies.

Only in the minds of deluded Spurs fans, the RS were just as much in the mix as them!

Wonder if Liverpool's figure includes any undisclosed payments to Hicks and Gillett.

With any luck this hasn't been taken into consideration and when it is, it turns out they're actually worth about the same as us.

Wishful thinking?

Absolutely...but you rarely hide good news.

And Kevin...how were Spurs in the mix? just because they were near the top of the table for a period, doesn't mean they were actually in the mix...and any football fan or pundit who was deluded enough to suggest otherwise at the time, was off their rocker. They finished 20 points off top spot...and therefore were as close to winning that league, as we were to getting relegated.

And Spurs' wages are not comparable to ours...aside from the size of their senior squad, Adebayor (Reported wages of 80,000-100,000 a week not to mention a significant signing bonus) is bigger than Fellaini's... Dempsey's wages, which were the subject of a lot of speculation in America (after a journalist quoted 90,000 a week), will be around the Fellaini figure. Without looking up the figures of Lloris and Bale and the like....Friedel is also reported to be on around $6.5 million a season. So you are wrong on both counts....

And we should definitely generate more commercial income...our figures are absolute joke. I believe, in the hands of others, we could realistically generate 5million a year..which could be the difference between selling and keeping a player, signing a promising youth, or funding the free transfer of a Demba Ba or Sissoko

In Singapore, Chelsea opened up a representative office for commercial opportunities. That could mean a number of things, but most likely they appointed one of the myriad of sports agents to represent their brand commercially.

You don't need to go to the expense of actually shelling out for an office, employing someone - you just grant one agent / agency the right to represent your brand in a particular area, and pay them a commission on what they bring in.

Clubs use overseas marketing/sports agents all the time. Usually on a non-exclusive basis (which leads to some awkwardness with multiple people pitching the same offer usually at a different price).

I don't know what we've done in the past in the this regard - never heard our name mentioned. I do know how active other clubs have been however in Asia.

So whilst the revenue figures would be depressed slightly, there should be a comparative reduction in costs also? And if they really were losing money on merchandise and catering, and are now getting payment for outsourcing it, then the profitability should be greater?

Although how any football club can not consider merchandise and catering to fans on matchdays as core business boggles this simple mind!

I was only basing the wages at Spurs on a comment Harry Redknapp made after taking over at QPR.

He said the fine to one of his players of £130k (Two weeks wages) was more that any of his players were earning at Spurs, here's the direct quote:

"I fined a player last week and he was earning more than any player earned at Tottenham. You shouldn't be paying massive wages when you've got a stadium that holds 18,000 people."

He probably lying though – and Fellaini is only on 20 grand a week, as long as it suits your argument.

But you go right ahead and make up want you want Jim, just so you can dream up more excuses for darling Dave, a true managerial great.

Also, Harry Redknapp is the most trustworthy person in football...and would never say anything for the purposes of rhetoric.

Unbelievable. Hopefully many of the well reasoned members of Toffeeweb will help you construct an argument over time, that does not rely on a fictional basis.

Then you want to us to believe that Harry is telling porkies, and we should believe an American journo regarding Dempsey?

Jim, I will send you some more straws to clutch at if you want, but it well known that Spurs have a rigid wage structure in place.

In fact, Modric was "reportedly" only on £40k a week at Spurs.

Adebayor on £80-100k a week? Really Jim? Care to back that up with any direct quotes, or did you read that in the Togo Times?

"Modric refused to train on Friday, ahead of Saturday’s flight, and will be fined around two weeks wages, a basic of over £80,000 in total, by Spurs’s new head coach Andre Villas-Boas."

Now where did I put my American journal of English Premier League player contract details??

I know it won’t happen but, if Lescott came back to us on loan, I think it would have had to be something similar. Not bad, eh... City paying the wages of players on other teams. Maybe we can build a strategy from that.

But, here are your sources: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/9490747/Tottenham-confirm-signing-of-Emmanuel-Adebayor-from-Manchester-City-in-deal-worth-9m.html :

Adebayor had been on £170,000-a-week at City and, while that salary has been reduced to around £100,000 to fit Tottenham’s wage structure, he has also received a big pay-off to leave the Etihad Stadium

Several papers reported a similar wage...although tbh, I reckon it is nearer the 80,000 the BBC quoted, as I believe they are the most reputable of all sources: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19334854

Congratulations on quoting Modric's wages though, who is both no longer a Spurs player, and not even under discussion... And do you know why Modric's wages were so low? because he refused to sign a new contract. If Fellaini had refused to sign a new contract... guess what? his wages would have been lower to

Sources enough for you Kevin? or do you want to see his wage packet?

And Kevin... Dempsey scored 17 goals last season for Fulham...they pocketed 30odd million for Modric... and numerous news agencies have reported large wages... I don't understand why the idea of him on high wages is so difficult to grasp.

Let me answer that for you - Yes.

You just don't like to hear any evidence that points to the fact Moyes does have resources, and it is not the miracle of Goodison Road when he manages to finish 7th.

What is your usual spin? We have the budget of a Championship side, If I remember.

Yes, lots of teams in the Championship paying the wages we do.

The simple fact is that footballers contracts are not published, but info leaks out, and in these days of social media total myths can gather legs. I was told by someone who works in football that back in the 70s, even as recently as the early 90s, a footballers contract was a simple 2 page affair. 4 pages maybe if your agent was a moonlighting lawyer. These days it's a multi-tiered contract between two companies. One of the reasons the taxman has taken such an interest in football is the explosion in wages, and the way that clubs and agents have gone to great lengths to hide them.

A player might be paid £40k a week, for instance. But other clauses could see that, over a 4-year contract, get closer to twice that amount. Be it appearance money, bonus for staying, signing a new contract, image rights or combinations thereof.

Just supposition on my part, but I think Moyes realised a few years ago that his owner was not going to be able to provide him with a transfer war chest – after all – the "business" is fundamentally a loss-maker. So I believe Moyes has bought in to the buy cheap-sell high idea, with sizeable investments in players like Fellaini, on the understanding that he'll either move on, or stay for pay and a get out clause.

Wages are a complex issue. Players like Anichebe, Coleman, Osman are on good money here, and could probably get the same or even a bit more at a Norwich or West Brom. They're happy here, so why move? They're still rich! Sadly footballers today are millionaires before they've kicked a ball for the first team, and the celebrity culture that follows is where they feel they belong. Football is just an inconvenience now – I can't imagine why any of them would be so happy to be on the bench, or not in the squad. (Well I can imagine why, but I grew up in an age where if a player wasn't in the starting XI he was hammering on the Manager's door on a Monday. And quite right too!)

I agree that merchandising and catering should be internalised and the club take the responsibilty to make it pay. Isn't that what management is all about?

If we looked at our overall wage bill in comparison to other teams now, we would be around 10th in this division, and probably have a similar relative wage position (perhaps a little higher) in the division over the Moyes era (below, but little difference to, our average finishing position). If you looked at our net spending totals, we'd probably have an average in the bottom 5 of this division. Statistically we have outperformed most seasons, and will continue to do so this season, barring a Tottenham-esq collapse.

And don't construct arguments which I have never made, and then try and fight against them, instead of the reality. It is schoolboy stuff...

I've given you a very legitimate source in the BBC, who have represented Adebayor's £80,000 as the lowest end of my £80,000-100,000 estimated re his wages. Without even factoring in a substantial signing-on fee, Adebayor's wages are higher than Fellaini's. There is also good evidence to suggest Dempsey and Friedel are either around, or above, Fellaini's wages.

Take the overall wage bill of Everton and Spurs, and whose would be higher? Spurs. Take the top 5 earning players at Everton and Spurs, and who would have a higher total? Spurs. Who has a higher net spend in the last 10 seasons? Spurs, by an extra £95million (and £240 million more in gross). They shouldn't not be in our sphere really... that they are is down to good management by Moyes.

Finally Jim... and it will be interesting to get your opinion on this: We have a reported spend of £63.4 million on player wages... do you know what Spurs' wages were in the 2011-12 (Reported to be the same as now)? £91million.

Now £63.4million and £91million... in that lies the difference between resources, which you seem strangely to resist. Interestingly Arsenal's wages are near the £150million mark.

So that's the struggle we are fighting... Spurs completely outstrip us in terms of spending, and have an annual wage bill which is almost £30million larger than ours. Arsenal, whilst spending far more in gross, do not ourspend us in net, but have a wage bill which is over double our own. We are outgunned.

On the plus side, I've bed with no alarm, and hopefully an Everton victory to look forward to now.