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Why Sunderland defeat will actually help Everton's bid to catch Chelsea and Spurs

by , The Mirror | 22/04/2013

I think it's a relief that Everton can finally forget all this Champions League talk and focus on their real goal this season – qualifying for Europe.

© The Mirror
Article reproduced here in its original form or abridged for brevity.

Reader Comments

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Denis Richardson
033 Posted 22/04/2013 at 16:28:49
Please pass me whatever this journo's been smoking. And they actually get paid for this!
Ross Edwards
068 Posted 22/04/2013 at 19:12:40
I hate it when journos write ridiculous crap like this. This defeat and other results CANNOT POSSIBLY help us, they have virtually made Europe impossible. With our squad and safety first, cautious negative manager, I doubt it would've lasted long anyway.
The Doddists may say that we are overachieving and that individual players are our of form and haven't scored enough goals, but if you have a cautious manager who only wants the team to score 1 or maybe 2 goals every game, players like Jela are going to be screwed. We have underachieved massively this season and Moyes is primarily the man to blame.
The going got tough, and as usual, Moyes bottled again.
I'm sure many members of the MOB will celebrate his leaving.
Thanks for everything Davey, but you've had your chances, and you've cocked up each time.
Jeremy Benson
071 Posted 22/04/2013 at 19:42:35
To be fair Ross, individuals players aren't scoring enough goals. To qualify for Europe you need strikers who are in form. How many have Jelavic and anichebe scored between them this season? 10? Not good enough, and whilst Moyes as manager must shoulder some blame as they are his players, we need another (£5m+) striker and that isn't is his fault.

I don't think you can possibly make the leap either that Moyes only wants us to score "1 or maybe 2" per game. Are you saying that if arsenal are 3-0 up against us at half time then Moyes wants us to lose? I'm sure you see the flaw in your thinking.

Given the squad that we have, I think we are about were we could/should be.

Spurs are widely touted as having a deficient strikeforce for where they are at the moment. They have dempsey, adebayor, and defoe. Stronger than our line up at present.

Mark Frere
074 Posted 22/04/2013 at 19:36:39
Ross Edwards

The main reason for our lack of progress is down to players losing their form, injuries and a small squad. Its not down to Moyes being negative like you say. Just look at the first quarter of the season when we were playing some of the most attractive football in the PL, we had some of the best stats in europe also. What do you think Moyes did to change this? do you think Moyes took the players to one side and said "come on now lads, stop playing all this attractive football! you know we only play negative hoofball here". The reason for our demise were injuries to Gibson and Mirallas, then pienarr and osman lost their good early season form. All teams who are challenging for top 4 need a big enough squad to cope with injuries and players losing their form.

Moyes has irritated me with some of his team selections though, our fringe players might not be very good, but his continual faith he has kept with Neville, Naismith and Heitinger is what's annoyed me the most.

Patrick Murphy
081 Posted 22/04/2013 at 20:17:17
This season we have scored 51 goals and conceded 38 with 4 games to go last season we scored 50 and conceded 40 for the full season.
Ross Edwards
082 Posted 22/04/2013 at 20:15:50
If players are out of form, like Pienaar and Osman Mark, why doesn't DM drop them?
Pienaar was the worst player on Saturday by a mile, and Ossie has been anonymous for over 4 games.
I know we have a small squad but he could try some of the youngsters like Stones and Oviedo.
It is cautious and negative tactics that have cost us Mark, such as Norwich and Fulham, and Reading. We went 1 up in each of those games, and we slowly retreated further until we were on top of Howard and then DM decides to put Duffy on v Fulham and Oldham and in both times we conceded in injury time.
If he had any balls or bottle he would have finished those games off, but he didn't, which cost us.
On Saturday it looked like he had no interest in coming back into the game, it was just aimless hoofball to Vic and then Jela. It looked like DM had finally ran out of ideas.
I fully hope he leaves in the summer, and hope that Rijkaard or Poyet comes in as we would see some attacking football and the youngsters being used.
Fortune favours the brave, which is why Moyes hasn't won anything in 11 years, as he is too cautious and bottles in on the big occasion.
Ross Edwards
085 Posted 22/04/2013 at 20:26:24
We have only scored 50 goals or more 3 times under Moyes, in 11 years. We must also be the only team to qualfy for the Champions League with a negative goal difference, having only scored 45 goals in 2005.
I know we have had our 5-0s and 7-1 v Sunderland in recent years but it seems that in recent years DM has become more cautious, which has cost us multiple times.
I forgot to mention in my answer to Mark that if caution from DM isn't to blame, why did he bring Naismith and Oviedo on in injury time against Arsenal at 0-0? Seemed to me that he was trying to hold on for a draw, which is what has cost us so many times this season.
Patrick Murphy
089 Posted 22/04/2013 at 20:38:02
Ross I didn't mean that we should be celebrating I was just highlighting that there is little difference and everybody blaming the strikers for our position are missing the point, it is the way we set up and set out to play that undermines our points total.
James Stewart
094 Posted 22/04/2013 at 21:32:47
This guy is on Bill's payroll.
John Ford
096 Posted 22/04/2013 at 21:01:43
It's a shit January sales which undermined our points total. This combined with below average premier spending. Imagine how we'd have done this season with a Benteke up front. We played Arsenal and they brought on Chamberlain, Walcott and Podolski as subs. How the fuck are we supposed to compete with that? It's fuck all to do with balls or bottle. What a nice romantic notion that is.

We had a run of great football with shitty luck - Reading, Newcastle, Fulham, Norwich. Games to be proud of how our team played. We've taken points off the big clubs and performed well. We dicked Chelsea but they got the breaks , what can you do?

We lack the edge which top players give you, and we leak points because of it.

Mark Frere
098 Posted 22/04/2013 at 21:05:15
Ross Edwards
Its all well and good saying if players are out of form drop them, but Moyes has to have players that are good enough to get into a top 6 team to replace them. Our fringe players are very weak compared to all the teams above us. People keep going on about Barkley as if he's some superstar, just remember he never set the world on fire at sheff wed or Leeds. I would of liked him to get more of a chance coming on for the last half hour of a game, or to of played instead of the dire Naismith.

I agree Moyes could of made better use of his squad this season, but the fact is, Moyes just doesn't get enough backing from our board. I agree with you that Moyes is a cautious manager, but that doesn't make him a bad manager. George Graham at Arsenal was very cautious and look at all the success he had.

I would love some manager to come in and get us playing like Barcelona, but it just isn't going to happen.

I think Moyes did the right thing holding on for a draw against Arsenal the other night, because we were so under the cosh the last half hour and we'd run out of steam. Our best chance was in the first half when we were on top in the game

Mark Frere
099 Posted 22/04/2013 at 21:05:15
Ross Edwards
Its all well and good saying if players are out of form drop them, but Moyes has to have players that are good enough to get into a top 6 team to replace them. Our fringe players are very weak compared to all the teams above us. People keep going on about Barkley as if he's some superstar, just remember he never set the world on fire at sheff wed or Leeds. I would of liked him to get more of a chance coming on for the last half hour of a game, or to of played instead of the dire Naismith.

I agree Moyes could of made better use of his squad this season, but the fact is, Moyes just doesn't get enough backing from our board. I agree with you that Moyes is a cautious manager, but that doesn't make him a bad manager. George Graham at Arsenal was very cautious and look at all the success he had.

I would love some manager to come in and get us playing like Barcelona, but it just isn't going to happen.

I think Moyes did the right thing holding on for a draw against Arsenal the other night, because we were so under the cosh the last half hour and we'd run out of steam. Our best chance was in the first half when we were on top in the game

Dean Barton
162 Posted 23/04/2013 at 10:00:57
I don't buy this negative Moyes BS. When we are a goal ahead away from home with 10 minutes to go you can either play keep ball like the top sides do or sit deep and keep them out. We don't have the players to play keep ball when pressured up high. That was shown at Southampton this season. So that means we have to sit deep and defend well, which is all well and good so long as some dick in a blue shirt doesn't make a stupid error... Coleman at Fulham, Baines at Spurs spring to mind. Moyes cannot plan for errors like that!

I am no avid supporter of Moyes but his tactics have not been to blame this season, individual errors have. We either miss great chances or commit comical errors at the back. Osmans miss at reading when it was 1-0, all the chances missed at Fulham ( Jol said we were like Barca that day and were unplayable ), Chances missed at Norwich, Pienaar miss at Arsenal, Anichebe miss at Spurs. All season we have not been able to put games to bed, sometimes down to bad play but mostly because of individual mistakes.

The other factor has been bad refereeing decisions at crucial times. Take the home game with Newcastle. Ok we concede in the last minute but a poor decision stopped us going 3-1 up. What about the Penalty against Fella at City or the Stoke game where if the referee had done his job we should have had at least 1 penalty from the Fella/Shawcross challenges. Ok Fella should have been sent off, but if the referee gives a pen then that would not have happened!

Moyes counted on Jelly getting 20 goals this season, which if he had we would have walked into the top 4. Look at some of his glaring misses this season, his alone would have gotten us an extra 6 to 9 points.

I know they are his players and he is culpable but he cannot plan for everything!

Robbie Muldoon
184 Posted 23/04/2013 at 12:55:08
Another patronising 'stay in your place little old Everton' piece from a rag not worth wiping your arse on.
Stu Smith
293 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:12:17
I find it strange that there are so many who dislike Moyes.

I remember before he came, every season was a relegation fight. Breathing a sigh relief once we got 40 points.

I don't know about others but I believe that if (and I know its a big 'if') Moyes had been given £25m before this season, we could have won the league this year.

Ross Edwards
297 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:28:47

Expectations are higher every season and DM hasn't matched them. We always get close to achieving something then Moyes bottles it, Semi Final v the RS, Saturday v Sunderland, Wigan in the FA Cup, Leeds in the League Cup.

I know that under Wally we were expecting a dogfight but we expect better and Moyes hasn't delivered. Considering the many quarter finals, semi finals and European campaigns we've been in it's down to Moyes bottling that he hasn't won anything.

If we were Sunderland we'd be delighted with the guy but we're not, we expect better every year and especially this season we have underachieved massively.

Colin Wainwright
299 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:34:39
James Stewart (094). You're probably right mate. Paid for through "other operating costs".
Mark Frere
300 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:31:02
Stu Smith
Don't be ridiculous! 25 million wouldn't of been anywhere near enough! Clubs need to also pay obscenely high wages, as well as a big transfer fee to get the kind of players capable of winning the league. 25 million might of given us a great chance of getting in the CL
Paul Andrews
301 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:50:49
"Moyes and Round were at Anfield yesterday,they saw nothing to scare them"
Oh yes they fuckin did.He will go and play the inferior to you tactics.(AGAIN)
Brendan McLaughlin
303 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:49:42
How have we massively underachieved? At the start of the season the bookies had us finishing 8th and we were by no means favourite to land any of the cups. OK we maybe haven't torn up trees but "massively" underachieved?
Ross Edwards
304 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:53:35
Moyes will bottle it in the derby. He'll come out in the press conference and play the massive underdogs card, or he'll say "Brendan's brought good attacking players to Liverpool, he's done well, even without Suarez, they are still massive favourites" He will definitely say that, it's guarenteed.
He never likes to say "we'll go for it", or make cheap digs like Fergie does.
I actually want him to grasp the inititive and give them a hiding.
The RS without Suarez is like Kim Jong-un without the nuke button, Weak.
Stu Smith
305 Posted 23/04/2013 at 21:59:17
Please can someone explain how Moyes has 'bottled it'??? Im pretty sure in the Wigan game he didnt tell Neville to pass the ball to Mcmanaman. Semi V RS Distin passed it to Luis. No manager in the world can do anything when things like that occur.
League cup v Leeds we tried youngsters who didnt cut it and havent been seen since.
When I said £25m that is purely transfer money nothing to do with wages and wankers fees.
Ross Edwards
306 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:00:23
We have. We look set to miss out in Europe when we should be in 2nd chasing Man U, if half our our draws had been converted to wins.
In the Cups, we missed a golden opportunity to get to the Cup final by losing to Wigan and losing to Leeds in the League Cup.
We started off brilliantly and I thought that Moyes had turned a corner and we were heading for great things but after Wigan Moyes reverted to type and we have missed out on the CL in embaressing style, that Sunderland performance was indefensible and for me that was the last straw regarding Moyes.
Only Man U have lost less games than us and it is caution in big games which has cost us again.
Moyes has had his multiple chances and has come up short each time, time to hand over and give someone else a go.
Rijkaard or Poyet for me.
Paul David
307 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:04:42

In the Wigan he might not have told not have told Neville to fuck it up (he can do that all by himself) but he did pick him ahead of Gibson. That is as big a sign as there can be that Moyes was ore worried about what Wigan could do to us rather than what we could do to them, fucking Wigan.

Stu Smith
308 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:10:49
Or was he trying to rest Gibson bearing in mind he has an injury and at that point we still had a chance of CL football??
Paul David
309 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:14:01
Absolutley no chance. Moyes doesn't do 'resting' unless its the Anfield Derby of course.
Ross Edwards
310 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:11:20
And Stu, even when we were 3 down to Wigan, we still had 10 men behind the ball. That was embarrassing and summed Moyes up. On Saturday he again succumbed to caution by bringing Osman back, who for 4 games has been awful. He didn't take Pienaar off despite him putting in the worst performance I have ever seen from an Everton player. At one point against Sunderland, we had Jelavic isolated in the box and we just aimlessly hoofballed to Anichebe and never looked like getting back into the game.

In the semi final we went 1 up and slowly retreated as Moyes sat back which cost us the game, he did that against Reading, Fulham, Norwich and Oldham, the first three costing us vital points which would have put us securely in the CL.

Moyes has had countless opportunities in 11 years and bottled it each time.

History never remembers the losers.

Brendan McLaughlin
311 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:09:01
Ross #306
Again the unbiased view at the start of the season was that we would finish 8th...we're gonna finish 6th (7th at worst) have we massively under-achieved?
Ross Edwards
312 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:17:38
Absolutely right Paul, never forgiven him for that shameless capitulation at Anfield last season. Showed complete disregard for the fans by throwing away a derby.
Stu Smith
313 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:18:23
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Moyes has brought us along way from the dark 90s.
Paul David
314 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:24:09

He has but in terms of entertainment we're still in the dark ages.

Mark Frere
315 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:19:16
Brendan Mclaughin 311
Ross can't give you an answer, because he's talking bollocks! He wants Moyes gone and that's all there is too it
Kevin Hudson
316 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:13:15
"After Wigan, Moyes reverted to type."

Ross, he went on a 5-game unbeaten run which was undone by Baines's moment of madness.

Plus, we went out of the FA Cup due to 3 freaky minutes.

We ended last season on 56 points, but reached the same number after just 33 games this season, so how you can say he has come up short...eludes me.

"We should be in 2nd chasing Man.Utd."

I agree. We should also be twatting Barcelona 4-0. All it takes is a magic wand.

Kev Prytherch
319 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:28:31
Moyes has built a side that is capable of challenging for the top 4. Once he's built it, he doesn't know how to play it and keeps faith with what has apparently served him so well throughout the years.

Has it though???

The Cahill role.....
When Tim Cahill burst on the scene he was a midfielder who ghosted forward to help the strikers. He was compared to Paul Scholes as he arrived late into the right places. Moyes sees this and create's a 'Cahill role', which is no longer a midfielder arriving unnoticed, but a second striker with limited creativity.

When we were on fire at the back end of last year, and the very early part of this season, Fellaini was a midfielder, albeit an advanced one. He often pulled defenders out of position as no one knew where he'd turn up. Moyes sees this and plays him in the 'Cahill role', a second striker, easy to pick up with limited creativity.

Finally someone with creativity who can play in the 'Cahill Role'. Dropped.

This is one example. Neville vs Wigan, Saha and Cahill, Arteta Right Mid, Yakubu running the wings, etc....

I'd rather have a team that has limitations but a future than a team that should be up there but, largely due to inept tactical nous, that constantly disappoints.

Kev Johnson
320 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:35:16
Kevin - come off it. We did not go out of the cup because of "3 freaky minutes". That is totally rewriting history. We went out of the cup because we we played like utter fuckwits for the whole 90 minutes. That is undeniable.
Peter Laing
321 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:36:53
All the debate is academic in my opinion, Moyes knew what Everton needed before Christmas when he realised that Jelavic was suffering from a huge loss of form and couldn't hit the proverbial cow's arse with a banjo and that was a striker. No funds in January and we have ended the season rueing the lack of firepower, for all his detractors Suarez has ensured that Liverpool have avoided a relegation or mid table finish single handedly with his goal return, similarly Van Persie has won United the title.
Brendan McLaughlin
323 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:39:04
"Moyes has built a side that is capable of challenging for the Top 4"
Apart from your opinion (& Ross's) both of which I respect...who else was tipping us for a Top-4 finish at the start of the season?
Kev Prytherch
326 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:47:08
After the Man Utd game and the way we were destroying teams early on in the season and the back end of last season, I'd say there were quite a lot of Everton fans believing we had a team that could challenge the top 4.

Even when we kept going a goal down, we believed we could win. Slowly though, we got stifled, we nullified Fellaini's goal threat, we persisted with players out of form, we made stupid defensive substitutions and before you knew it, we were back to defending 1 goal leads.

This is why so many people are starting to dislike Moyes, not because he's a bad manager, he's not. But because he doesn't know what to do with a good team. I'd love him to stay, but with a decent coach and tactitioner next to him.

Brian Denton
327 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:55:56
Ross (085) Norwich qualified for the Champions League with a negative goal difference, back in the day. If yer know yer 'istory an' all that......
Kev Johnson
328 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:03:21
Osman had a stinker for Barcelona tonight. Just saying....
Brendan McLaughlin
329 Posted 23/04/2013 at 22:53:22
Kev #326
"we were destroying teams early on"...yeah we started well BUT AGAIN who apart from you & Ross ( & I appreciate it's a school night and he's probably in bed by now)...predicted us finishing as a Top-4 team. I mean it's not difficult Kev...go back to the ToffeeWeb articles at the start of the season and there's not "a lot" of Everton fans predicting we'll finish Top-4.
Brendan McLaughlin
330 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:05:57
Lot of tracking back by Bayern tonight...who'd a thunk...
Kevin Hudson
331 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:06:36

Three goals in as many minutes IS freaky!

Kev Johnson
332 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:18:20
KH - We were utter rubbish that day, as you know as well as anyone. Don't make it sound like it was a completely unpredictable act of nature like a snowstorm in July!

Phil Hamer
334 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:22:48
Ross Edwards

I quote your comment in post 085 "We have only scored 50 goals or more 3 times under Moyes, in 11 years."

Ross, we have scored 50 goals or more in each of the last 7 seasons.

Please explain where you acquired your facts from. Or maybe just admit that you fabricated them just to lend credence to yet another silly rant.

And "we should be in second place chasing down Man Utd for the league" made me spit my cheerios all over my keyboard thank you very much. Its frankly a miracle that we are in the hunt for 5th place when you look at the feeble net transfer spend and wages that we pay as a result of being run by a complete amateur in Kenwright.

Anyway, please advise where you got the stats about scoring 50 goals only 3 times under Moyes or accept that you just...plain...lied.

Kev Johnson
335 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:35:36
Cheerios? It's getting on for midnight. What kind of a night-time snack is that, Phil?
Phil Hamer
336 Posted 23/04/2013 at 23:39:27
They're a) strangely addictive, and b) half-price at the corner shop.
Derek Thomas
390 Posted 24/04/2013 at 11:43:51
Brendan # 329 I was actually predicting 3rd, based mainly on last season admittedly.

But 14 draws and no Jan investment have done for us.

We win 4 out of those 14 and we are 3rd

We spend a bit of cash in Jan and we are 3rd pushing 2nd.

All ifs and maybes yes, but it was there for the doing of.

It was that close.


Andrew Ellams
394 Posted 24/04/2013 at 12:09:53
Brian @ 327, I'm pretty sure Norwich have never qualified for the Champions League. They did have a run in the Uefa Cup in the early 90s when they beat Bayern Munich which I am guessing was the catalyst for Everton offering Mike Walker the job of replacing Kendall Mk 2.
Ross Edwards
398 Posted 24/04/2013 at 13:05:42
Phil Hamer
In each of our 11 seasons under Moyes this is our goals total:

2003-04 :45
2004-05: 45
2005-06: 34
2006-07: 52
2007-08: 55
2008-09: 55
2009-10: 60
2010-11: 55
2011-12: 51
2012-13: 50+

Looking at that, it proves you are correct but from my point of view it shows that in the last 3 seasons Moyes has become more cautious and negative.

He has come in 3 stages, first 3 seasons he was cautious but our teams were poor, especially 2005-06 with 34, then in the next 4 seasons he became more attack-minded, then in the last 3 seasons he has reverted to type.

I want us to be scoring more than 60 goals a season, not scraping 50 every year. Goals meant points, and what do points make? Prizes.

Andrew Ellams
400 Posted 24/04/2013 at 13:20:59
Ross, why more cautious over the past 3 years? Apart from 1 year when we scored 60, the last 3 have been pretty consistent in comparison to the last 7. In fact if we manage 5 goals in our last 4 games then this would be our second best goalscoring season under Moyes. Who knows — we may go crazy and actually catch up with the 60 mark, it wouldn't exactly count as a spree if we did it over 4 games.
Steve King
402 Posted 24/04/2013 at 13:21:08

There's still four games left this season, which could easily see us near 60 goals.
Also we scored 56 PL goals in 2009-10 which shows a consistency rather than a rise then fall.

If we had a goal scorer worth his salt you might find that this season's tally would be a lot higher too, what with Jelavic managing to miss sitters approaching double figures over the last 8 months.

Sorry but I don't see how the correct figures shown show a more negative approach at all?

Ross Edwards
403 Posted 24/04/2013 at 13:30:14
I interpret it Andrew as scoring 60 in 2009-10, and since then our goals have dropped to 50 last season. We could well get over 60 goals this season but it's unlikely.
Dave Lynch
405 Posted 24/04/2013 at 13:48:11
Steve @ 402.

11 years nearly at the club and he cannot find a goal scorer "Worth his salt".

That is criminal in itself, either that or he basically sucks all the confidence out of them with his defend first, channel running ethos.

Kev Prytherch
408 Posted 24/04/2013 at 14:17:47

I took your advice and looked back at a post after the Utd game (one of the only ones with 'predictions in the name). I reckon about 30% of fans either predicted, or believed it was a possibility, of finishing top 4. About 30% said 5th and about 40% said 6th.

So I'd say quite a few fans did believe we should be challenging the top 4, even those who predicted 5th would have expected more of a challenge.

Face it, Moyes has cost us too many points with his tactical ineptness, his poor substitutions, his lack of squad rotation (your not telling me we couldn't have rested Osman or Baines for at least 1 game) and his stubborn persistance to persevere with something that isn't working.

We beat Southampton 3-1, how many more times have we beat a team by 2 clear goals between then and QPR???? Compare that to the back end of last season. The second we look like we're doing well, Moyes wants to score one and defend the lead. We might not do as well under a different manager, but we won't do any better under Moyes.

Kev Prytherch
409 Posted 24/04/2013 at 14:23:09
That should be 'we won't do any better than we're doing now under Moyes', not to be misinterpreted as 'we won't do any better than an incoming manager.' I'd rather take a gamble on doing something better knowing that it might backfire, than sticking with the 'Keep it tight' Status Quo
Andrew Ellams
410 Posted 24/04/2013 at 14:22:41
Well Ross, I interpret as the 60 goal season being an exception when all of the others are all around the same.

And as stated by both myself and Steve King, 60 is a decent possibility. And that is without scoring more than 3 in any single league game.

Andrew Ellams
413 Posted 24/04/2013 at 14:34:32
One of the outstanding stats for me this season is that we have not completed a league double over anybody and the West Ham game in May is the only chance we have left.
Steve King
415 Posted 24/04/2013 at 14:48:53
Dave Lynch

Fair cop! We've spent a bit of money on front men over that time to, so I can't wheel out that old defence....

Richard Dodd
528 Posted 24/04/2013 at 19:13:54
I only hope that Ross Edwards's simplistic criteria is applied to any manager who replaces David Moyes. That criteria seems to be that EVERTHING that goes wrong is down to the manager!

Just consider the strikers who can`t hit a barn door and the defenders who switch off in the last few minutes of each half because that must be down to Moyes's coaching and tactics. He trains them to be like that.... or how else it could it happen?

Oh, by the way, he actually wants them to be 6th rather than any place higher. I fecking ask you, how demented some people are!

Ross Edwards
530 Posted 24/04/2013 at 19:34:02
Doddy, I think you mean deluded. If I was demented I'd be in a home not knowing what my name was or what team I support.
Ross Edwards
533 Posted 24/04/2013 at 19:42:18
He signed the strikers that can't hit a barn door Richard. He could also drop them, and Pienaar, and Osman and not bother playing Naismith as he is the worst player ever to wear a Blue shirt.

Notice the trend here Doddy:

Fulham: 1-0 up and lost 2-1
Norwich: 1-0 up and lost 2-1
Reading: 1-0 up and lost 2-1
Oldham: 2-1 up deep into injury time: drew 2-2.

It's a coincidence in each of those occasions that Moyes caution and sitting back led to those results.
I know you love him and think he is faultless but he is mainly to blame for us messing up every year. Call me "demented" or deluded but that's ironic when you sit in your Davey Fantasy World, in which he is completely absolved from blame or criticism whatsoever, where 7th is deemed successful and getting to quarter finals and bottling is deemed as overachieving.

Richard Dodd
535 Posted 24/04/2013 at 20:06:19
I have a terrible feeling that if he moves on, seventh will seem a bloody miracle.

But we`ll have to see who`s right.

Mark Frere
536 Posted 24/04/2013 at 19:54:50
Ross Edwards
Why have you got such high expectations? The mid 1980's were a long time ago. We need new owners in place before we can start thinking about any manager achieving much here
Brian Denton
541 Posted 24/04/2013 at 20:18:06
Andrew (394) Norwich finished third in 1992-93, but in those days we didn't have four representatives in he CL, so I hold my hand up to that error. But I was making the point that another team than Everton has finished in the top four with a negative goal difference.

Iain Johnston
547 Posted 24/04/2013 at 20:13:48
I know I'm stretching things a bit but, when Moyes arrived, it could only get better... I remember Blomqvist upfront on his own against Sunderland... okay, he scored and we won 1-0 but is was dire.

I believe Moyes's attitude changed after the Newcastle game, we pressed really high and were hammered. Weir and Stubbs from then on lived in the penalty area.

Our defenders have really improved but our ethos hasn't. Round was moved on by the smoggies because they thought him too negative which compounded things when Irvine moved on.

The tactic issue has been there always. Remember the Villa game when a world-class 30-odd-year-old Dion Dublin put them 2 up? Moyes went to 4-3-3, we equalised, reverted back and lost.. Man Utd: 3 down at the break, changed again got to 4-3-3, reverted back and lost...

His half-time talks used to galvanise the team, they don't anymore. I don't want him gone for the sake of it, but, he's never been the Messiah some would like to think. I would like him to stay IF the backroom staff were changed.

Ross Edwards
653 Posted 25/04/2013 at 13:30:24
Mark Frere

My expectations are not as high as you think they are. If I would have said we needed to win the Quadruple next season then I'd understand but I just want us to win a trophy, League Cup would suffice, an away win at the Sky 4, and a top 4 finish next season.

It's not impossible with a manager like Rijkaard next season but, due to Moyes cocking up year after year, we have not achieved this.

John Ford
657 Posted 25/04/2013 at 13:42:58
No one finishes top four outside of the money clubs! Ever! To criticise Moyes for making mistakes yet never recognise that he is the manager more so than anyone to get closest to breaking the glass ceiling is just daft.

Hand picking games we have lost points is equally selective. Everyone drops points and everyone concedes leads. Evidently we lose less than most, but don't let that record distract you from reeling out more carefully hand picked nuggets. There's an argument against Moyes but highlighting a few league defeats just isn't it. It doesn't make any sense.

The problem with these snippets is that they are always overridden by the bigger picture. Always knocked down my a bigger counter argument, more convincing because it's based on a whole season, or seasons. His record in the top division is completely beyond question. Picking odd games won't distract from that. We all know he has weaknesses ( the semi against Liverpool was excrutiating) but ignoring the blindingly obvious makes your argument defunct.

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