Distin robbed as derby ends all square

I thought Osman was a lot better than usual and Pienaar showed good flashes. Gibson was good but his passing was dire while Mirrallas, Anichebe and especially Fellaini looked like they didn't want to be there.

Looking down on the RedShite, we're looking down on the RedShite

He did nowt wrong, just another bullshit decision from a ref at Analfield.

Commentators on Sky Sports said it was harsh, vut didn't make too much about it as they were clearly rooting for 'our jamie' in his last derby! They were so biased it was embarrassing.

What a shite match that was. As usual, I winced the entire way through. As usual Stevie Laaa' was a cunt, the ref made a bollox.

Low point was when a ball was played through to Jela and he was on the right wing with no actual striker in the centre. What the fuck was that?

Saying that, I'll take a draw here anytime given the usual uphill struggle against 12 men, but still, for fucks sake it was dire.

Finally, Fellaini was lucky he didn't get a red today, I have no idea why he feels the need to randomly elbow or lash out at opposition, but its very, very dodgy.

Liverpool midfielder Steven Gerrard: "Everton have improved a lot. They are a good team and hard to beat." Fuck me that shows what a wierd derby that was... next Osman will be on complimenting Gerrard's haircut.

I must admit I wasn't that bothered about whether DM stays or goes earlier in the campaign but I don't think him staying will do much to advance us especially away from Goodison. I think that was our 7th point in seven away games, and we have failed to score in 4 of those, not good enough to challenge for Europe.

Get some some pace into that team. ASAP!

Lets hope we find a Shankly before they do!

A decent team would have railroaded them. The RS lack of ambition at home against us is something I think many will miss out on today; this is not the end of the RS – they have been in decline for years. But this result and the manner in which the RS went about taking Everton at home confirms their mediocrity.

Where is the sense in dropping free kicks into the keepers catching zone. Everyone bar our players and coaches know the slightest nudge on the keeper will be penalised.
Those free kicks should be dropped elsewhere or fired in low with some zip.

A very defensive, Moyes type performance against a crap Liverpool team.

I would take an offer for Fellaini now and use whatever surplus cash that may be available to buy a creative midfielder in the mould of Cazorla.

Pienaar stank the place out, and Anichebe proved that he can't cut it at this level. No movement, doesn't have a 6th sense where the ball will be either that or won't play percentages, and that's probably down to lack of mobility. passing veered between abysmal and woeful. All in all a piss poor game and if I had been a neutral, I would've switched over to cash in the attic or some other shite.

Apart from Jagielka and Distin who were immense we were poor. The shape was all over the place and we offered nothing what so ever in their half. Hell we barely even had more than 2 players in it. Attacking additions are sorely needed. Fellaini was poor and would not be misssed if sold. I think we would actually play better stuff without him.

Inability to finish teams off is our Achilles heel. Lack of pace throughout the team also has to be addressed. Not holding my breath though and expecting more of he same next season. Let's hope I am wrong!

We thought we'd beat Villa and Wigan etc at home. Liverpool will likely beat Fulham and QPR and have a better goal difference.

I've never watched a derby with less sense of fear or anticipation. It was just a numb affair. Even the disallowed goal – the whistle was blown before Distin headed it. I was mid conversation saying "why do players do this? The ref always fuckin blows as soon as the ball comes in". The decision was wrong but it was obviously going to be given. Just keep out of the fuckin way until the ball comes in.

Doesn't matter that it wasn't a foul, officials will continue to give it, remember it was another non existent foul of his that caused Osman's header to be disallowed at Upton Park.

Plus he's a big unit and should be trying to get on the end of a header himself.

To improve, you have to get players who are better than the ones you already have. My original post was merely stating where I would start.

There are lots of players we have who do need to be improved on but Coleman isn't one of them.

Personally, I think we need a striker similar to benteke(i.e. big, powerful and quick), and two good all round midfielders. Osman is too lightweight and immobile and Gibson is decent, but nothing more. Pienaar is also too inconsistent. If we can find someone with pace, like Mirallas, for the left side, then we'll be fine.

The biggest problem with the team though is not the players, but the tactics. Our build up play is slow and laboured and we don't commit enough players into the box, except during set pieces. How often have we seen our striker doing the crossing and maybe 1 blue shirt vs 4 in the penalty box? That's not a way to score goals or win games.

I was surprised the ref gave us more than I though he would, usually wearing a completely red shirt but today it was purple! How many bad decisions have cost us this season! The FA should review that goal like they do fouls and give us the match! Oh I'm sorry we ARE Everton after all!

I suppose at least we didn't roll over as per... But on the bright side aren't the RS a mess! Keep it up, Brenda, and we'll win at Anfield yet!

Really hope we can sell Fellaini for good money, get rid of Anichebe too... he's a 'thick' footballer and his moaning and demeanour puts him on the wrong side of referees and hinders us.

Also am I the only one who is sick to death of co-commentators being ex redshite, and always leaning their way? Every 50/50, every blue indiscretion highlighted and red one dismissed... it was Beglin today, and although not the most biased, he had me screaming at the TV.

Player of the season ? Either Jags or Distin, as again they were head and shoulders our best performers today.

A lot of nonsense talked about Gibson. He is clearly not 100%, and a good pre-season (and possible operation) may get him right for August. Given his injury record though, I'd favour a big percentage of the Fellaini money to be spent on another centre mid, along with a bona fide goal scorer.

Fellaini to go ? Certainly, along with Heitinga. Reduce the wage bill, promote Duffy to "first reserve centre back", and let's see what Barkley can do, given a run in the team.

"Transition" seems to be the new buzz word in football, and as was evident today, we don't have enough pace in the attacking positions to hurt teams on the break. Mirallas now has one season under his belt, so the understanding with his team-mates will only improve. Throw in a nippy new goal-scorer who can play off the last defender, and we won't be far away next season - I certainly can't see the bookies offering odds of 5/1 again for us to finish Top six, as they did at the start of this season !

Who to? Did the Kop know something that we didn't? It comes to something when this season we score and I always have to look to the ref to see if he allows us the privileged of a goal.

We had the majority of the first half and it was equal in the second, with both defences solid so I don't get the views above.

Plenty of pre-match 'we won't show up' bollocks, but we did and out played them in the majority and scored a perfectly good goal. I doubt the ref can answer to that one. He must have decided Vic was fouling even before the incident... but not to worry, both teams aren't near the top 4 so the press won't give a shit.

Not sure what the comments above mean about certain players not cutting it at this level... playing 7th? Fellaini, Coleman have done wonders against teams much higher up.

Also, that 'thanks' rubbish took the sting out of the match, its just a shame the refs have well and truly screwed our season over. Every team can point to harsh decisions but I've never known a season like this.

So we should have won away to a 'top 4' side today, which perpetuates a well known stat of arguable relevance but its the first time Everton have done double seasons over the shite for eons.

Europe is now gone. Depending on Europa or top 4 qualification that's either a good or bad thing. Only thing left is to put our league position to bed against West Ham and review a season that fell inches short of success.

So, another year chalked off without progression. Guten tag, David Moyes.

Kudos to a hard working Ossie today; his best derby shift for a while. Midfield, however, was poor and lacking creativity for the most part; how many final balls went astray today? Gibson was a sore let down. Thank Heaven for Distin and Jags. And whatever happened to pace?

He may be 100% correct on that, but you can smell desperation and double standards for Mr G la as he joined in the hoofball.

For me, the point earned made it more than likely that Everton will gain 6th position and `the best of the rest`title. With those clubs above us all working off massively greater incomes, Mr Moyes has again made a bid for Manager of the Year but, more importantly, put the RS in their place AGAIN.

It should be enough to ensure he sees his future with us even if it is only for another year.

Good day, all round!

H constantly bitches that his squad is not seeing enough but if we do,not give the youth the chance we will never know.... FS itonlymtook a lifetime for Barkley to get a chance against the arse to play well and get dropped agains the mackams.????? Once again WTF!!!!!!!!

Ah Nick, either very good sarcasm or you've finally come to your senses Sir. Hopefully it is the latter.

Yes Doddy. Moyes should be manager of the century if you like mind numbingly boring consistency and failure every year.

And don't for one second believe that crap from Gerard that finishing above Everton doesn't matter. It matters a whole lot to them than they let on. So well done to Moyes and the boys for keeping us above that lot.

Now let's do West Ham next week and put 6th place to bed. Another season with Everton finishing above Liverpool will knock their confidence even more.

If we were allowed the cutesy of having our goal allowed, we'd be all saying sold performance, did what was required.

In truth it seemed a very tactical derby with both teams wary of mistakes but not a performance to criticise by any means... even if it shows we DESPERATELY need a striker.

As for best of the rest. Seems we're always best of the rest, better than the rest below us any way, whether that be 14,15 or 16 .

You can go on about why it wasn't a great display of passing football but, apart from Arsenal, no-one's done that to them at their place this season. Villa and West Brom did them on the counter after having largely been battered and the two Manchester clubs got mauled and were lucky to come out with results of any sort. They're not as bad as we like to think and we're not as good as we like to think, what we got today was 6th v 7th in the league.

Wy do people say every derby is always going to be like this under Moyes? The last one was an end to end 2-2, the one before that in the league we got tonked 3-0, the Anfield one before it was another 2-2 thriller. You can't say these games follow the same pattern all the time. I can understand not being happy with the result but does every game in some way have to be extrapolated to try and prove something about the Moyes era?

All it showed was what everyone already knew is that we don't have the right players and formation to play well consistently away from home. Liverpool are rubbish whenever they have to try and take the initiative in a game. Refereeing in the Premier League is of a ridiculously low standard.

Manager of the season? Probably go to Ferguson as Swansea have tailed off and Clarke isn't so high profile. Moyes would have been in with a shout with a place higher up, definite shout if it were two. But Fergie will have it.

Come on don't post nonsense.

That said, I reckon we'd have sat back on that lead, conceded and then drew anyway had Distin's header not been ruled out.

Well, you do surprise me at times Nick. I thought you would take Chris's post and say that Moyes would have been the ONLY manager to do this and that underlines that we should never let him go and that the MOB will regret wishing his departure etc.

Obviously not.

Considering what they've spent and where they've come from they've done worse than QPR.

Our best players were Distin & Jags, says it all about our attacking style. 14 years & counting...

PS Moyes still to win at Anfield.....can't think of anything remotely funny about that fact!

Have to say Gerrard hit a few great long passes today!

As usual, we had a perfectly good goal disallowed. Please don't say it chalks off the goal Liverpool were denied against us earlier this season. That one just chalked one off against the previous 50 dodgy decisions against us!!

We just did not have the vision in midfield to create that moment of magic.

We're stuck in

Problem is you need to spend in excess of £20 million to help turn us from top 6 to top 4, and that is the reason why the manager is considering his position. I am sure if he had the money to spend on a very good striker as well as a top wideman I think we could break into the top 4.

You can give Phil neville all the stick you want (most of it he usually deserves) but him and OSman had control of the midfield at Goodison and gave us a platfrom from which to win the game. In this game, similar to the semi final, Gibson and Fellaini just didn't have the mobility to trouble Gerrard and Lucas. We need to be using players against teams they'd be sutied to and tailoring the formation when we're playing away not just putting the same 11 out every game and playing the same way. Everyone knows it works very well at home regardless of the opposition but away from home it just doesn't cut it. I thought Moyes has wisened up with Barkley playing in the last two big away games but Sunderland and Liverpool have shown that he perhaps has not.

We played well defensively, but I am always happy to see Jelavic come on... I still believe he has class and will overcome. Anichebe is a decent target man... but no more. Each player did there job defensively... but in attack we really seemed to lack something. And for me, it was that Pienaar was no where today which meant Baines was also ineffective going forward.

Osman I thought actually had a good first 45, then became quiet. As a whole, the team did look like it needed freshening up... which is what was needed in January.

But I'm rambling now... so goodnight Blues.

But typical end of season game none the less.

WHU...maybe we might win, but who knows.

Chelsea; Will we be up for that? I wouldn't bet your life on it, would you?

So ends the season, not with a bang but a whimper.

We may well be in and around the top 6 or 7 for years to come but it's just so boring. It's terrible to go through the same rigmarole every week watching shite football.

I have said many times before that I don't expect Everton to win anything but I would like to be entertained and shown some new stuff and players. Moyes is a plodder and it's painful and predictable.

Do you really want another billion years of this crap??

Of course Anichebe gets booked for questioning why a legitimate goal was ruled off (couple more negative points for us there) but captain marvel doesn't get anything despite his foul mouthed tirade. It will be nothing more than a corrupt joke if that shower get into Europe via the fair play league.

Wigan has been built by Martinez, they are his team. He bought those players, and avoiding relegation is the very best he can do with them. Similarly, Everton's team have all been brought in by Moyes, and with his coaching they punch way above their weight and market value. Similar financial restrictions, very different results.

Just don't understand the mentality of some on here. My kids always want more, but like some of you they also don't seem to understand the value of money.

BTW, anyone else heard rumour about Rafa being Moyes's replacement? His record is first-class and imagine how it would piss them off. He still lives on the Wirral.

Whelan turned the cash off when Martinez arrived and he has to sell his best every year, bearing in mind the geography and rugby background of the club it's remarkable he keeps winning these big games.

Miles better than Moyes.

The figure that is always trotted out is no wins on his watch, but perhaps more relevant for Tony's take is that we have scored a mere six goals in a dozen derbies at their gaff since Moyes slipped into the hot seat. Six goals! That might say a little something about the tactics, mind-sets, line-ups and formations that we have brought to this game over years that now add up to somewhere in the region of one-seventh of an average human life.

He'd have no money and he's nailed his colours firmly to the mast of the Dark Side and worst of all he stuck us with the label of being a small club.

I just can't see it happening.

While many elements of the game today are difficult to judge in a split second, considering the speed that the cheating often occurs, it is these sorts of incidents that confirm the dreadful standard of many of today's referees/linesmen. They simply exude no genuine authority whatsoever.

That no action was taken tempts one to throw the towel in as regards any hope that discipline and authority will ever again be the elements that determine the players' approach and the referee's officiating of football matches.

With regard to the match itself the performances of Jagielka and Distin were immense and an enormous credit to them. Could we lay to rest the idea that Anichebe has anything really to offer as a first rate centre forward? And how Pienaar could hold his hand out and expect to be paid for that performance is beyond comment.

Sell Felli in the summer to the highest bidder (he's overrated). If Wigan go down, make a bid for Callum McManaman.

I'm totally in the camp of getting rid of Felli over the summer for sponds yes but also he is a nasty piece-of-work when all is said and done (not exactly Sewer-rat level but bad enough) and is becoming a real liability and clearly takes little notice when warned about his elbows.

Champions Man Utd - 3pts... Even with them (bothered about GD).
Man City - 4pts... Came out on top against them.
Chelsea - 0 pts.... Likely to come off worse.
Arsenal - 2 pts... Even
Spurs - 4pts.... Came out on top.
Liverpool - 2pts.... Even.

Off the 6 teams around us in the 2 games against them we came out on top against 2, even with 3 and it seems that only one will better us.

As for the 11 years nonsense and never having won at Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd etc well I seem to recall that before Moyes we hadn't beaten Leeds Utd away since the 1950s and hadn't won at Spurs since the 80s (we then won 3 on the spin at WHL).

Moyes has in many respects done what many others before him have failed to do but just because he hasn't won anything it is held against him. Besides one FA Cup we hadn't won anything in the 11 years before Moyes so why the huge expectation now?

Distin's goal should have stood but still a draw was a fair result. Jagielka, Distin & Howard were excellent. I thought big Vic did a good job holding the ball up but we really lacked much creativity in midfield.

What happened to Barkley? – I heard he went home "sick". Wouldn't surprise me if he was being saved for U21 playoff on Tuesday?

Here are the facts Ian:away games at the so-called big-4 under the gaffer's wing, P-45, W-0, D-18, L-27 Pts-18 - that's 18 points out of a possible 135, 18/135!!!!!
I'm not someone who trots out the no win/big-4 (A) stuff as a rule, but your post and its defence of DM is so wide off the mark. And how can 'fact' be 'nonsense' mate?

I'd sooner have Rafa if it was a toss-up between them. I don't care if I get shit for it. He may have bossed THEM, but he's won major trophies everywhere he's been.

He may have worked over there but so did Kevin Sheedy. So did Alan Harper. So did Peter Beardsley.

So let's not dumb this down: his failure to win is a massive indictment of his overly cautious defensive mentality that dominates almost every game. It is this that translates directly in an inability to win when it matters. Instead, we have a plethora of draws that we are meant to get excited about.

You can play the stats all day long: the sad fact is that he has bottled it in big games on far too many occasions for it not to be painfully true. if he does leave this summer, that will be writ large on his epitaph.

It's both; it's easy.

But the buck stops with the gaffer who:

watches them all week
researches the opposition
talks about the opposition to the players
decides the weak and strong points of opponents
thinks about the best way to win the game weeks ahead
chats with his picks watching the opposition
thinks long and hard about line up
thinks long and hard about selection
thinks long and hard about tactics
thinks long and hard about formation
talks to the boys 10 mins before kick-off
game on - watches the gamer foild
keeps a particular eye non who is making mistakes and not playing well
thinks about how his Plan-A is doing as game unfolds
reacts constructively to what opponents are doing
tries to outfox opposing gaffer
as half-time looms mulls over team-talk
delivers uplifting and constructive 1/2 time talk
makes subs at 1/2 time if appropriate
watches 2nd half unfold and reacts appropriately
mulls over constructive subs to sort anything that needs sorting out
ahead - drawing - behind - at 70 is now thinking about tactics and subs
makes the right choices
gaffer can sub people below par/making errors
he reacts to our performance as well as opponents
gaffer with 10 to go has to get it right
HOPEFULLY WE WIN

Players/gaffer? The most important person there for us is our very highly
paid gaffer who is highly paid for all the above.

The line oh can he be blamed for A doing this is a, forgive me, kop-out.

He has to respond on the spot to what is going on in the pitch. Yes, A does
that silly thing and we go 1-0 down but Mr. Moyes sis paid all those sponnds
to respond in measured and constructive manners.

nature/players, nurture/Moyes? Both, needless to say.

But there's a real good reason why Moyes earns so much, He is in charge and
the decisions at the end of the day, each one, are his. And I think that he has
the integrity to stand and fall by that.

Tactics can be rightly questioned but you are screwed if you creative players don't turn up. Added to the fact that we haven't got a forward of any note Moyes can only do so much.

I have often said Moyes should do one, he is never going to get any financial help and January should be the final straw.

Couldn't agree more about the gaffer doing one; if you go back through my (endless!!!) posts I have always commended the gaffer's decency, dignity, and commitment, even when in scolding mould. He should go IMO for 2 reasons, one I think you will share: (1) we need a change (2) DM deserves an opportunity somewhere else where he will get appropriate financial clout away from this minge-bag board to put his full imagination/nous in place. He does. And I for one will applaud him when/if that happens.

We've had our chances – we've led at least 3 times at The Emirates in recent years, a late RVP free-kick, a late Rosicky goal in injury time and another game where we capitulated after Osman put us one up.

My point about it being a nonsense is that it's not as if we were winning away at these clubs all the time before Moyes came in so, with an injection of about £1.5M a year since he's come in, where does this expectation come from?

As for the Spurs/Leeds comment that was just simply pointing out that in the scheme of things 11 years isn't actually that long and all sorts of records come and go.

Michael Kenrick - how much has Moyes spent and where have we gone from since he joined us? He moves us from relegation fodder where we were beaten by most teams to challenging for Europe and now, all of a sudden, he's a bottler – see the games this year, we've done better than our rivals head to head. If you cite too many draws in big games then you're redefining the term 'big games' to include Norwich, Newcastle, Villa, Fulham, Swansea etc.

It's those games that have cost us and I wouldn't suggest for one minute that they're big games, they're simply the ones that we should've done better in.

You can have as big a wage packet as you like but if its not matched by a transfer budget then it's irrelevant isn't it? And you said that you didn't want to dumb this down?

He says they're the best... let's see it. Not just on the odd occasion, after they have really fallen well below the level we all know they can produce (eg, Wigan followed by Man City). But with more consistency and above all a desire and belief that they can win. That comes from the manager... or, in this case, not so much. All we seem to have is a burning desire to play out a brilliant defensive draw. That for Moyes defines a good result. To me, it's two points lost. Two points you can never get back.

Tony, you are forever beating about the players, and not Moyes. I firmly believe the way the team performs is a direct reflection of the manager's input, preparation and personality. Then there's all those things Paul said. That for me is why it always comes back to the manager. If players are not producing, haul them off and make a substitution. Drop them if they are off-form. You know as well as I do Moyes is poor in these regards, although his supporters have a litany of excuses they can call upon.

Absolutely couldn't agree any more about that twat Gerrard.

My kids watching it on telly pointed it out to me about what he said without me bringing it up, but that c**t didn't even have a word said in his ear, fucking terrible,disgusting, and there is no way the ref did not see/here it.

One rule for them or him and one for everyone else. Fucking joke.

Should I feel pissed off about the goal that never was or the fact that only a few players namely Jags, Distin, Howard, Afro and Osman turned up at the races today.

Whether you agree with me or not on who I thought performed individually you can't deny the fact that since Moyes has been with us we have been nothing less than disgraceful at that shit hole.

11 years. 11 years without a win and the only thing I can take from yesterdays game is the fact that they are worse than us. That shouldn't be the highlight of any derby for any Everton fan.

Maybe my next comment should be for a topic for discussion on another thread but am I deluded thinking that this same bunch of players who used to pass teams of the park, have untold shots on goal,( at the beginning of the season) second only to Barcelona in respect to those stats ( I think ) go missing.

It baffles me, those T**TS were there for the taking and that bunch of players couldn't/didn't raise their game.

They ( the players ) can do it, it's been proven, so why ain't they doing it now Moyes?

First rule of management ' EVERYTHING STARTS AT THE TOP '.

We haven't finished higher because MONEY is needed to break the glass ceiling. It's bloody obvious. I'd love to see Davey given the money he deserves. Much rather that than the media favourite Martinez, who's wonderful side is in a permanent relegation battle cos there so good and play great football apparently.

We were the better side yesterday and in the words of Mourinho in the same situation a fews years back, 'we won'.

It's been proven (Paul Abel analysis 26/4/13 on TW) Moyes gets more out of his players than any other manager. The expectations that we should win the league are just bonkers. Achieving top 4 for Everton would be a much greater achievement for any manager than winning the league for Man U or C. Our club is handicapped each season by its lack of money. Don't blame Moyes or the club, if you must get angry about it direct your anger to the football authorities who's lack of action over the past few years has ruined our league and turned it Into a billionaires toy.

But whats happened? Same players, different mind set, tactics, there is no way " on gods given earth " that that same bunch of players haven't been told to play differently.

What's happened, different mind set, different tactics, thats what.

Moyes went the extra mile at the begining of the season then reverted to type, he's capable of so much more but it will never see it on a permanent basis.

Don't expect anything less.

And as for the ' murderers ' chant, well if that's all they can bring up, shows yer how desperate they are.

Personally I don't think they are and it's more to do with Moyes being a "Trainer" rather than "Coach" but until he goes we won't know.

On a side note what has happened to Baines' set piece ability? Gerrard landed 2 or 3 on the ehad of Agger that looked dangerous each time. Despite having multiple chances Baines put in one good ball the entire match for Distin's header. So many over hit free kicks looped up into the air for Reina to catch especially at the end when we were putting some pressure on them. I know towards the end Arteta had a tendency to hit the first man but Baines is going in the opposite direction.

My brother(a red c**t) stated on face book that Fellaini should of recieved a ten game ban for "elbowing" a red t**t.

I thought he should of got an OBE. (or something)

But boring? Yes. Yesterday was. Funnily enough the same team had created third most chances in the Premier and had the highest possession% in the final third of the entire Premier League in January (couldn't find any more recent stats): http://www.eplindex.com/24264/possession-creating-chances-goals-epl-stats-analysis.html

If only Jelavic hadn't completely forgotten how to play or if the shysters (better known as "the board") had actually given Moyes some real money (Monopoly money is not real) in Jarnuary we'd be still in the race for a CL spot (this would also apply without some shocking refereeing decisions).

It's painfully obvious that some people hate Moyes so much that they either don't watch matches or they spend the entire time moaning that they don't actually understand what happens on the pitch.

.

And it it's so easy to win PL Manager of the Year like Moyes has done THREE times then why can't everyone do it?

I'm just staggered by the amount of myopia that some ToffeeWebbers have. I can understand some criticisms, but most of it is both ridiculous, cimpletely unfounded and totally wrong.

Everton have the same problem now as what Joe Royle had with his decent side. Goals on the pitch and coming off the bench. We have always been reliant on a Ferguson, Stuart, Speed or Barmby type. All fine players, but we never have a prolific striker, or impact subs that can change the game. Just a solid starting XI. We have enough good players to make a good game of it in some games at the top sides, but not enough over the course of the season to maintain it when the games need grinding out or a bit of magic.

Mirallas is the type I am talking about. He seems to have a bit of magic. Sadly we only have one, whilst others have 3 or 4. Moyes frustrates the hell out of me, but I would have liked to have seen what he could have done with a decent bench to draw upon. This would have exposed him or propelled him.

In the way that they are the worst red shite side i've had the pleasure to witness in recent years.

Without an ageing Gerrard (should of crippled the c**t in school) first half anyway, there shit.

Forget there home record, we should look at our away record instead, because it's pitiful, the Moyesiah your defending is in charge of this lot, fuck their league form, it's ours that matters.

Woeful at best.

Don't expect us to go there and win 5-0 but my son hasn't had the pleasure to see US win and feel the pleasure I have when we last did, and without a great tatical analyis it's wrong. (he turns 11 soon).

An end of season game between 6th & 7th ( or 10th & 11th etc ) where, even if one team wins, nothing much is going to change with a 5point gap and 2 games left, Derby or not, is still and end of season game.

Pienaar, daft as it may seem, since he quit International football and cut his dreds off has been gash.

As has, compared to 2012, Baines, why, he's carrying an injury, he's running down the clock until his move, even he can go off his peak, he's been doing the biz game after game since he got in the team.
Maybe finally people have twigged him and Pienaar are a threat, more than likely all or many of the above.

The 'goal' this is symptomatic of the PL / FA's reluctance to police the WWF push and shove in the box.

As I saw it, Anichebe might be built like Tarzan but he is by attitude a bit more Jane like, a Mr Nasty Fashanu-esque he is not.

The reff(s) I think have been 'told' that unless the keeper ends up on the ground, the whole push and shove is just in the ' too hard basket ' to do anything about or we will end up with 6 a side by half time. etc

Reina ' seemed ' to fall over when Anichebe and his dancing partner moved to the side a little and he had nobody to lean on...reff sees keeper fall, blows, while at the same time Distin heads in, yet again, going back to Clive Thomas ( no relation* spits ) they all thought it was a legal goal.

The game; when it was played at 100mph at the start of each half they looked more likely. When it slowed a bit we could play and looked good value, not likely to score but good value ( where's the money Bill )

QED; Lack of pace

So, not Moyes fault per se.But I still think that after 11 years we need a change of direction...and some pace.

Difference is that unlike most of the seasons since that under Moyes Everton isn't a perennial relegation candidate. What's the difference between the late 90's and now?

One stat Moyes bashers seem to conveniently forget is that we have lost just once at home this season. Last time the club managed that was in the 80's. And we have only lost SIX matches all season. If only some of those draws had been wins (couple should have, like Newcastle at home).

But anyway, the point I was making was it doesn't matter what team we play away, good or bad, we need to improve our away form( no matter who we play) and regardless of form (for the home team) we should be up for a derby fixture.

Hope that makes sense?

Answer to your first question. Beginning of the season and a few weeks after.

Just want it to happen again.

Ain't likely though.

(sorry didn't read #582)

You can't say 'without an ageing Gerrard' because they weren't wihtout him. Its like saying without Messi Barcelona are rubbish, it might be true but Messi plays almost every game for them the same as Gerrard does. IF you want to focus on our league form then fine but you'll fidn its been better than theirs for two seasons, or do you only want to focus on the league form that brings up the most negative stat, our away form?

We have more consistency than they do at home because we have better technical players and in my opinion a better manager. They are more streaky and have better form than us on the road because they have the money to buy quick strong atheltic players that give you the mobility to get wins on the road on a more consistent basis. The downside is they lack the ocnsistency to break teams down at home. Every side has its strengths and weaknesses, ours at the moment is our away form. That's why you take the whole package into account by looking at the legaue table and it shows the two teams close together with us having a slight edge. Surprise surprise there's been two draws int he games htis season. The extreme of 'they're there for the taking' just isn't true, equally the one that says we just bend over for them all the time isn't true, the results just don't show this.

His words (or something similar).

The point I'm trying to get across is our results at that shit hole.

You say that our weakness is our away form. I agree ,but at analfield it always has been under Moyes and again as is the latter part of this season. Yes we haven't won many away this year but this WAS A DERBY, and what some of those players don't realise is those capital letters I just typed.

Its up to the manager (whoever is in charge) to make them realise (if they don't understand) what it means to this club and us fans, if they can't, they can fuck off.

As for the Gerrard comeback I was just pointing out that they'd be alot worse without him, as for saying without Messi, Barcelona would be rubbish, did you see them play Bayern Munich?

And I doubt Argentina would of won the word cup without Maradonna.

And I'm sorry for going on but 11 years is to long.

Start with the bench on Saturday. The only players even remotely capable of playing forwards were Oviedo and Naismith. We can dismiss the latter, I don't think anyone wanted him on the pitch. Moyes did swap underperforming Mirallas with Jelavic, his only real option.

People tend to play too much Football Manager or something because they don't realise that a nice dummy as the sub in 85th minute doesn't mean the player will transform a team. Oviedo did a few nice things when he arrived but I don't think you have seen in training any more than I did. What has he *actually* done? Barkley played in two of the important matches of late - that he got sick yesterday is hardly Moyes's fault.

Duffy: which one would you replace, Jagielka or Distin? Duffy is a centre-back and the only way to accomodate him is basically to replace one of the defenders (you could also move Jags/Distin to fullback). Funnily enough, with Heitinga in the team, the stats are excellent. You also want to replace a Dutch international with a totally unproven player (or, more precisely, someone who has looked out of his depth & is even slower on the turn than Heitinga)? How do you know Duffy woldn't cost us more points? How many matches have you seen him play & how much do you watch him in training? Do you know he is not being turned over in training all the time? They play training matches there, you know that?

Vellios has scored couple of goals but apart from that I haven't seen anything to suggest he would be more useful than Anichebe. Except he's slower and doesn't put him around as much. Jelavic has shown he has class and what Moyes is hoping is that given time on the pitch he refinds himself. Vellios is not a top class striker and I would bet he never will. Jelavic showed he has the potential to be one.

You make the false assumption that since some players on the pitch are not playing well there must be better player in the reserves. There really is nothing to suggest this. I think the problem is that some people really think they know more about tactics and football than a professional manager because they won the league with Everton on some version of FM.

There is also the fact that Moyes likes his team to play to plan. I suspect part of the reason why it takes time for players to be picked is because it takes time to teach them the playing style.

Ultimately one off stats can be painted anyway you want. David Moyes has presided over Everton's biggest win against Liverpool since the Catterick era. 2 of the last 3 Liverpool managers have failed thus far to beat David Moyes' Everton side. In the premier league era only under David Moyes have Everton finished ahead of Liverpool. Only under David Moyes have Everton finished ahead of Liverpool for consecutive seasons in the post war era. Liverpool have won less than half of their home games against Everton when David Moyes has been in charge.

All of the above are true yet I know as well as you do that we've got a bad record against Liverpool especially at home. I just don't understand the fixation on the away record. If Kuyt had missed that pen two seasons ago and we'd come away with a 2-1 win from a rather off key bizarre game would it make it any better that we had one 'w' in the column. Would Moyes be any a better manager if Distin's header had been allowed? Would he have been if Andy Johnson didn't miss that sitter against them? Or if Reina hadn''t denied Fellaini wondrously when we were battering them but ultimately lost thanks to their one foray at goal through Kuyt? Moyes could be sat here with three wins on his card if luck had gone his way but would he be any different a manager?

You only normally get one chance a season at their place, for a lot of those seasons they have been better than us, a couple of times we've been screwed over by refs, a couple of times we've been injury ravaged. Circumstances can happen and before you know it you've got an 11 year itch to scratch. If we played them 11 times in a row now I would guarantee we would record some wins. I am in favour of criticising Moyes for his away form in general, not so much against the top sides but against the lesser lights of the league. I think he needs more tactical variety and different player selection. These runs are all over the place in football though, look at Sundelrand or Fulham's at our place. Moyes is a victim of his longevity in that he is personally blamed for any bizarre stats that come up in 11 years, but other clubs who chop and change their manager have just as bad records at these away grounds its just their managers are never around long enough for it to become a monkey on their back.

I'm on about yesterday's game and if your saviour is as good as he's made out to be (with the best team he's ever had) he would of beat that pile of shit,oh I don't know, maybe once in a managerial career.

EVERYONE knew we needed two players in in January. Do you think Moyes chose not to bring anyone in?

There isn't a fixation in general about our record at analfield, it's always been shit, but no win in a million years is terrible and the problem is our mentallity and tactics under Moyes.

"......Moyes could be sat here with three wins on his card if luck had gone his way but would he be any different a manager? "

To answer that paragraph? Yeah he'd be a winner.

How many teams in the Premier play exciting football that you seem to want? The top teams have spent more on a single forward than Moyes on the team roughly speaking and I don't usually see them play that exciting football either.

By January Wigan had created a full 50 chances less (that's roughly 25% less) and scored 11 goals (about 30%) less than boring Everton yet people want Martinez?

Personally I still think despite what Moyes says the 07/08 team were better. Arteta was miles better than anyone we currentl yhave playing in the team ow. Cahill was in his pomp. Yakubu was getting 20 a season. Lescott and Jagielka were one of the top pairings in the league and Carsley and Osman had a better mifield balance than the numerous pairings we've tried this year. The football was better and we had a better blend of power and graft in the midfield that is sadly missing now.

Moyes moaned a couple of years ago when Arteta left on the last day of the transfer window, thereby giving us no chance to sign anyone. We should not allow him do the same to the club. Sign or get out should be the ultimatum to Moyes.

So 6th place is now best of the rest? Didn't it used to be 5th? Or was that the magnificent 7th?

You may not see it, but your comment highlights to me how we are sliding whilst those around us move on. The only saving grace from yesterday was that Brenda's "Project" has a few more years to run I think.

Thank God we have a Chairman who's "one of us" tho eh?

After the Wigan game, a lot were predicting we'd finish 7th and thus be best of the rest behind the moneyed 6. In my eyes, 6th is nowhere but are we now part of a big 7?

Or will people just shift the barrier to one place higher than wherever we come? Is it a big 5 now that we're not in the top 5?

Phil Jagielka, The Sunday Times - 05/05 /13.

Maybe this comment explains why don't win at certain grounds?

Imagine you are sent out against Liverpool, and your primary objective is to disrupt the way the opposition plays, that is why we find it so difficult to win.

We all hear we are a top six side under Moyes, and how good he is, but there are always the same ready made excuses whenever we fail in big games.

We are far too nice by the way, they were in the ref 's ear from the first whistle, we never said a word, this needs to change if we want to go to the likes of Anfield or Old Trafford and actually take all three points.

I think that as it is our last home game of the season on Sunday, DM could announce his departure during the week so he can say a final farewell to the fans at the end of the West Ham match.

This new manager would sell some of the better players to generate some funds. These signings would be far worse than Moyes's record (which is excellent, so it's unlikely the next man is as good). In three years time we'd be worrying about relegation again and some of the idiots here would be happy because at least Moyes isn't manager. Some of the suggestions (like Martinez) sound like it doesn't matter who the manager is as long as it's not Moyes.

How many managers in the last 11 years have managed to turn a almost certain relegation team to top 6 without any funds? Name the names. You lot would be happy if our manager comes from a team that is narrowly escaping relegation every year and has basically done fuck all so far. Might even get relegated this year.

Also, someone points out that we didn't have much success before Moyes arrived so why the expectation now? Well that's why you take on a new mangere to improve things and to win things!

Moyes has improved things if mid table mediocrity to top 8 finishes is the measure... but has won nothing.

Correct me, but aren't those teams at the top of the table because generally they don't loose many games a season against anyone (except maybe other top teams)?

Fellaini + Pienaar out. Need new Midfield masters + leaders + someone to score. Plenty of summer dream time ahead.

Manchester United have lost three times at home this season: against Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham (last September).

Manchester City have lost just once at home this season: against Manchester United.

Chelsea have lost twice at home: against QPR and Manchester United.

Arsenal have lost three times: against Manchester City, Swansea and Chelsea.

So, a total of 9 losses at home for the top four. Out of these all but two were against other top four teams. They have played a total of about 4*17 = 68 matches.

So for any team outside the top four the probability of winning away against the top four is about 3%.

And just as a sidenote: Everton have lost just once at home this season.

If it is indeed the manager who has kept us in a false position in the table then we will find out how false that position was in the coming months and seasons. Some posters believe it is the players who should get the blame for our ‘false’ position others say it is the manager, I just know that the football we have witnessed over the past few months, especially away from Goodison is not good enough for most PL clubs and if it continues we will be back to where it all started fighting for our lives near the bottom rather than the top of the league.
At least then we can get rid of the tag of overachievers which is a misnomer if ever I have heard one, what exactly have we achieved, record goalscorers, numerous cup finals, the entertainers of the top-flight, no, just our continued existence in the top-flight no more no less, if we don’t have the ambition or the drive to achieve more then maybe we will become more like Wolves et al than we would wish.

Please. How about you watch football instead of just moan about it? This is my main gripe about anti-Moyes people: you don't watch the games (or fail to understand what you are watching) but have the nerve to criticize.

It's a funny thing. Very few would criticize a CERN physicist about his work. You have about as much knowledge about football as physics (assuming you didn't sleep in school) yet you think you more about tactics and personnel selection than someone who has been named manager of the year three times.

I don't come to this site often anymore because of people like you. This site has gone to the sewer because no matter what happens, it's Moyes's fault. Unless we win, and it's not thanks to him. Reading the diarrhea on these comment sections would make you believe he's the worst manager in Everton's history and any crappy manager like McLaren or whatever laughable suggestions there have been would be an improvement.

Of course you know more about football than the Premier managers who have chosen Moyes manager of the year THREE TIMES. Sure thing. You also know that Vellios, Oviedo and Duffy are better players than the ones he picks ahead of them. And you could teach him about football tactics with your vast knowledge about Football Manager. You could also tip him about how to do transfers based on the same knowledge.

Facts are, no matter how you look at, that Moyes is an excellent manager who is widely respected. He makes the club overachieve compared to the resources and those three manager of the year awards prove that his fellow managers agree. You can only criticize him by nitpicking or by talking absolute shite. He started at Everton with a shite team he inherited from Walter Smith. Remember what it looked like? He has spent an average of 800,000 pounds per season on transfers and has turned a team that looked certain for relegation into a team that bar a few bad refereeing calls would still be with a chance of qualifying to CL.

You can't dismiss these facts so instead you choose to ignore them and pick out a bad result like no other teams have them or stats that are complete BS.

So yes. I have the bare faced cheek to say these things.

We have a board where some board members are completely absent from the club and the rest couldn't set up a piss-up in a brewery. That's the problem. Financial results are a joke and the only reason the club is still in the PL are the higher than expected final standings. Without the millions in prize money I would almost bet the club would now be in lower divisions. We were heading that way before Moyes took over. Remember how well the team played during the last months under Smith? What the squad looked like? Kenwright got lucky as Moyes wasn't even his first choice (the others would have been disasters).

Name a manager with as good a transfer record as Moyes, for starters.

Could you also list the teams that never play poorly since it seems Everton is the only and it's all Moyes's fault? Moyes's team lost lots of points last autumn after battering the opposition and conceding easy goals. Or because of refereeing mistakes. Remember the Newcastle match? What sort of defensive crap was that?

And I repeat: watch the f*cking matches. You can't be watching if you think Everton in 2012-13 plays the same way as Everton 2003-04. Honestly, it's impossible for anyone to make that claim seriously.

Plus, anyone who has followed the team remembers one summer when Moyes tried to make the team play fast one-touch football. Unfortunately it became clear the players weren't up to it.

You keep repeating the same shite over and over and it doesn't make it fact. Just because the team occasionally this season has played poorly doesn't mean that's what Moyes wants.

As for poor away form, Everton have still gained 7th most points away from home.

And negative tactics? Do you know how many 0-0's Everton have played this season? Four if I calculate correctly and all have come after the years end. So not a single 0-0 in Autumn. It's painfully obvious that the team needed some fresh legs in January but the board failed to deliver. Some key players have dipped in form and that's why we have seen four goalless draws since January 12th (against Swansea, in-form Southampton, Arsenal and now Liverpool).

Let's just look at the start of the season:
1-0 against ManU

3-1 against Aston Villa

0-2 against WBA
2-2 against Newcastle (and we completely battered them)
3-0 against Swansea
3-1 against Southampton
2-2 against Wigan
1-1 against QPR
2-2 against Liverpool
2-2 against Fulham
2-1 against Sunderland
1-2 against Reading
Three 1-1's against Norwich, Arsenal and ManC
2-1 against Spurs
1-1 against Stoke
2-1 against WHU
2-1 against Wigan
1-2 against Chelsea

Looks like results for a team that doesn't try to score? Plus, only one match lost at home & only one 0-0 at home.

You just spout shite because there are absolutely no facts to support you this season. He has been more cautious in the past but there is no way you can call him cautious this season. Unless you haven't watched the matches.

Quite an achievement from a team that doesn't even try to score!

Are you seriously suggesting Moyes tells his players not to score in a one-goal lead? And if I recall correctly it was more often the case of chasing a game last Autumn than sitting on a lead. I remember Moyes being criticized when he brought on a defender (Duffy at least on on occasion, on the 85th or so minute - we then conceded) and for not bringing on a defender on some other game.

Or are you seriously saying most teams keep attacking like there's no tomorrow on a one-goal lead? I would say that more often than not in such situations, when the teams are at least nearly even, the other team tends to score instead. It's a completely different situation when the Manchester teams are in the lead. Their players are technically so good that they can keep possession even under intense pressure. Which you tend to get when the other team is chasing. Our players have shown in many situations they don't have the skills for this. I remember many occasions when players have surrendered possession needlessly in the attacking third when the team is leading with poor passing.

As for doing subs: have you actually looked at our bench? As I mentioned, if Moyes brings in a defender to defend a lead, that's bad. He has actually at least once this season brought a forward in for a midfielder when we were leading. Contrast yesterday when Rodgers brought in a defender for a midfielder.

On the face of it, he seems like a very average manager in which Wigan are always in relegation battles; however, when you look at the numbers compared to Everton, he is doing a great job at Wigan. Wigans wage bill is £38M, Everton's is £63M in season 2011-12. Also, Wigan's average net transfer spend per year is £339,167 compared to Everton £2.8M.

Looking at those figures, he could definitely keep Everton in 6th/7th position plus his teams play much better football and always produce when the pressure is on at the end of the season which is a criticism of Everton under Moyes.

'I just know that the football we have witnessed over the past few months, especially away from Goodison is not good enough for most PL clubs and if it continues we will be back to where it all started fighting for our lives near the bottom rather than the top of the league.' Come on Patrick, if the football wasn't good enough for the majority of the premier league why would we be 6th in it? We've absolutely mauled some teams this year and even during dips of form have had more than enough to see off a whole lot of teams at home. 14 teams in the premier league would swap their results for ours. The rest of the league would bite off our arms for a home Manchester double.

I know our football isn't Barcelona or the German teams but have you seen the rest of the premier league including some of the teams around us? They're absolutely diabolical some of them. Decent mid table teams like Fulham can barely string a pass together whilst others are so bothered about trying to do so that they've ploughed themselves into the relegation zone on their sword of ideology (Wigan, I'm sure their fans are loving the boss football - if getting tonked in every match from September to March counts as good football). That's before you even get into the murky world of the North East teams and Reading and QPR. As we saw on Sunday Liverpool are no great shakes either.

There is aboslutely no indication that if we continue with Moyes we will end up as a relegation side. Since he's taken over the value and talent of the squad has arguably increased each year, why would it suddenly start to decline? If anything we're becoming more consistent, look at the home form, that is consistency. The results against the top sides are picking up (not the ridiculous expectations of some on here but a lot better than they have been and a lot better than the team immediately below us). You can make an argument for the board driving us to stagnation but to suggest Moyes will do based on your opinion of the football we've played is wrong. There is a decade of premier league tables showing you that you are wrong. How long should we wait before this inevitable relegation nosedive starts? 12 years not long enough?

However, great managers are only judged and remembered by those big shiny silver things.

I won't be sitting my grandkids down and remembering how we gloriously finished 6th, when we should have been mid-table.

That has nothing to do with anyone 's opinion on here either.

Loss against Norwich. So what should Moyes have done? He changed Jelavic to Mirallas and seemingly everyone's favouriter Oviedo was brought on for Pienaar. Obviously in the hope for a quick counter. What should he have done? You know, it's not completely unknown phenomena that the team that is loosing rallies. We dominated that match up to the point they got an undeserved equaliser.

Reading: we should have had two penalties. He also put on both Vellios and Oviedo on as substitutes with kind of shows that just playing these fringe players isn't the answer. Coleman made two bad mistakes and our players couldn't convert from a host of chances. Neither which are Moyes's fault I think you agree? And we definitely didn't sit back after our goal.

Fulham: wouldn't say we just sat back in this game either. It was really bad luck that with Distin in we conceded in the next set piece. This sometimes happens, but do you really mean to say that swapping a defender in in the last minute when the team is leading is uncommon?

Tottenham: Everton contained them very well but for that moment when Baines lost his man and they got lucky (the ball fell straight to Sigurdsson). Spurs are a quality side and anyone would have been happy with a draw before the match.

So no, I still can't see your point. Unless of course any team that doesn't always win after going in front is ultradefensive and their manager is shite. What about the many matches we went behind and rallied to get one or even three points? Or the matches were we held on and won?

This is the poorest PL for years and we may well finish 6th, that says more for the standard of the competition rather than the ability of Everton. I would expect a top 6 side to do well at home but I would also expect us to register more away wins too.

If we are destined to miss out on Europe and fail to win trophies I would prefer to watch a team that looks like it might at least have a few attempts at goal even if it means sacrificing a few places in the league.. Our wins on the road in the last two season were at Swansea on two occasions Blackburn, Fulham , West Ham, Aston Villa, Bolton and Newcastle. Two of those clubs have been relegated and two are fighting for PL safety. I realise that we have lost fewer games but that doesn't mean a great deal unless the points per game improves and it hasn't - well not away from Goodison anyway.

He's got us, on scarce resources, to average whatever position it is during his tenure (average 6/7th??). Comparisons with other other teams / managers shows he has punched above his weight.

Against that, he has at times made decisions we find strange - selection, substitutions, tactics, when other decisions might have got us even higher in the league, punching even more above our weight than we have.

So he is what he is - better than many others with more resource at their disposal, and / but leaving us feeling "if only he had...".

So, overall, I'm appreciative of where he's got us and frustrated we haven't done even more. That's what the man is. But I have no feeling of entitlement to trophies or even top 4 finish.

And I expect no other manager who realistically will join us (realistically) to achieve anything more.

If he stays, he stays, and I expect no better than what we've done. If he goes, he goes, and I will view with some trepidation what his replacement will be able to do.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJmO5IiCcAEW4kO.jpg:large

Why does everyone have an obsession with blowing teams away? People say they don't care about the result its the performance that matter but then criticise if we only win 2-0 or 1-0 despite a dominant performance. Man U have just built a title challenge on the back of 1-0 wins. Arsenal are street fighting their way to fourth on the back of 1-0 wins. Chelsea ground out a few titles this way. It'd be great to have big wins, but that is the modern game, even at home you're not going to blast teams into oblivion, funnily enough we're not the only team that has ever played well and can make things difficult for people. Why do people expect that we'll just win home or away against lower sides (sometimes better sides as well), as long as we 'go for it', yet fail to comprehend that these other teams are perfectly capable of going for it as well and are often better equipped, especially attheir own home ground. Liverpool have the odd huge win then are getting turned over by absolutely terrible sides at home and away, do you want to swap our league position for a few big wins? We beat QPR and Fulham 1-0 but in reality did they even pose us a threat? No, yet some people aren't happy. We destroyed Newcastle but ended up drawing 2-2, the performance didn't get credited because the result wasn't there, but in games when the result is there but the performance wan't all you hear is why wasn't the football better.

Patrick its a bit sly using the 2013 stat for away games. We beat Newcastle to start it off but the only times you can really say we messed up was Sunderland (bad performance) and Norwich. The other games (cup games aside) have been Man U (outclassed), Tottenham, Arsenal and Liverpool. These are the top sides in the league, the performances agianst the first two were very good but we just couldn't get the goal. We didn't create a hatful of chances but do you really expect us to away at the top teams? No one does. In just the same way we expect to win at home against anyone, the other top sides expect to win at home against anyone including us. People make out like its a bad thing that we didn't create a load of chances agianst Arsenal Tottenham and Liverpool at their own grounds. Welcome to the modern day premier league. Even Man U were hanging on at Tottenham and at the emirates and were battered at Anfield by ten men alhtough they got a pen for the winner. You are living in a delusional dream world if you expect us to go to these sides and dominate with free flowing football and create a host of chances. A wigan or Swansea may do it the odd time because no one is bothered abotu them. When we roll into town it is a big game for these sides so you'll never get a complacency gimme,

Take a chill pill, relax.

I dare to dream and I'm tilting at windmills. I don't give a fig what Chelsea, Man Utd, Brentford, or Stoke, or anybody else does; I don't care how they play or how much money they have or don't have — we are a team of plodders who sometimes rise to the occasion and I'm sick to death of trying to watch it.

Do we really want to compare Royle to Moyes because there will only be one winner, and he won't be ginger!

I think the problem is some people are simply getting bored with football and maybe Everton. They are blaming Moyes because if anything, he has turned the club into a safe one: usually fighting for a place in UEFA cup (which isn't nearly as exciting as a CL) but far from relegation. It was much more exciting when we had the Wimbledon and Coventry matches where we needed a result to stay up. Right? Would explain why some people want Martinez as our next manager...

@Sean: Let's be honest here.We had just had the worst manager in the club's history, Mike Walker and that Wimbledon match. This was also the time when there was no top four yet. Arsenal was still struggling, Liverpool had problems and there were no Russian oligharcs or megarich arabs anywhere to be seen. Blackburn of all teams were the champions that season!

Next season we finished sixth. Sixth. With Kanchelskis on the side. That's the position we will likely end up this season, and this is not Moyes's best finish, more like bog standard. And on the next it all fell apart and the most dismal period in club's history in my lifetime began. And why did it fall apart? Because Royle couldn't handle the loss of two key players (Hinchcliffe and Parkinson).

And as for the football: Royle played Horne, Parkinson and Ebbrell in many matches. Even when he had two exciting wingers in Kanchelskis and Limpar in the team he usually only played one of them (Kanchelskis). And it was actually a good team he inherited: Southall, Watson, Unsworth, Ablett, Stuart, Parkinson, Hinchcliffe, Rideout etc. It was much better than the team Moyes was handed. Yet Moyes took his team to 4th right away.

Blackburn
Manchester United
Nottingham Forest
Liverpool
Leeds
Newcastle
Spurs
QPR
Wimbledon
Southampton

Chelsea finished 11th, Arsenal 12th, Manchester City below us at 17.

Everton was able to sign one of the best players in the league that summer. Imagine if Moyes could do that, he could go and sign, say David Silva or Santi Cazorla. Royle did that.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to point any of these facts out so those who would like Moyes to leave at the end of this season do have more than just the "no trophy" angle.

And at the risk of sounding petty, Man Utd did the double the year of the Wimbledon last gasp survival, Blackburn won the year after, when we won the cup.

If Moyes's game was the dullest you obviously slept through Walter Smith's time. What was it, seven defenders and Steve Watson as a forward at one point?

Before Moyes, Everton finished in the top ten only once, 6th in 95-96. Since Moyes took over (excluding the first season when he arrived in March), Everton have finished outside the top ten twice. Average league position is way, way higher.

He also has the highest goals scored in a season, tied with 95-96 (64).

Apart from the FA Cup win in '95 Everton has by definition chocked every season since -87. So has most of the other clubs as well.

Besides, yes, he was defensive. I have never said he WAS attack-minded. It's just complete BS that he has been like that this seson, which lead to me assuming some people haven't watched the matches. This was re-emphasized with the matches where we apparently went ultradefensive and lost points because of that (which I proved was a false accusation).

'And so it came to pass that the Moyes defenders will go as far to protect their hero as to re-write history and attempt to denigrate Joe Royle and his brilliant achievement in winning the FA cup. ' Rewrite history Sean? Which FA Cup final were you watching? I watched the one when we scuffled one in off the bar and then Big Nev kept us in it as we got battered. Great to win it but let's not make stuff up hey. No need to say anything about the rest of Royle's tenure, he had good derby wins but his league form wasn't as good as Moyes'. Check the premier league tables.

Once again though its just easier to offer forward a patronising argument as though Moyes is 'my hero' and band in anyone else who is remotely in favour of Moyes not being immediately fired with my personal point of view. Nice one.

Don't "calm down" anything. Great stuff.

You overestimate your intelligence and show a very high opinion of yourself in that post.
Misguidedly it has to be said.

I met him when he was Everton's PR guy for a while. Great guy and built like a brick shithouse (he was much more imposing live than I ever realised watching him on the telly).

Hinchcliffe of course busted his knee when he run into an advertising board and never was the same again.

Like the semifinal against Man Utd? Or maybe the matches against Villarreal where we might have been robbed a place in the group stages by Collina? Villarreal of course got into the Champion's League semi-finals that year.

We are not the only team to lose matches in the FA Cup, you know.

I did and do watch the 1995 cup win quite often and it was a great result and one of the happiest days of my Everton supporting life, you are taking one game in glorious isolation but I am talking about the entire cup run which was tremendous from start to finish.

As we are asking questions did you watch the semi final against Spurs?

What would be your earnest thoughts on that perchance, one team was battered that day and they weren't wearing blue.

Compare and contrast that with the dismal effort that Moyes offered in his cup semi final.

You remember the " all conquering United " line up from that day.

James

That is where we differ I can see your way of thinking but Everton will never get back to the elite until/unless a billionaire rocks up Walton Way. Look at Spurs and how much they have spent but they will still not get in the top4 even with the player of the year.

I concede it is unrealistic to expect a top4 finish on buttons of course but winning a cup is a realistic aim of this team and its budget, defeats to lower league teams should not be either excused or tolerated.

Joe's record:-

14 Mar 1997 Slaven Bilic West Ham Utd £4.5M
16 Jan 1997 Claus Thomsen Ipswich Town £900,000
30 Dec 1996 Terry Phelan Chelsea £850,000
29 Oct 1996 Nick Barmby Middlesbrough £5.75M
1 Jul 1996 Gary Speed Leeds United £3.5M
1 Jul 1996 Paul Gerrard Oldham Athletic £1M
9 Mar 1996 Marc Hottiger Newcastle United £750,000
3 Nov 1995 John Hills Blackpool £90,000
25 Aug 1995 Andrei Kanchelskis Manchester Utd £5.5M
30 Jul 1995 Craig Short Derby County £2.4M
1 Jan 1995 Earl Barrett Aston Villa £1.7M
1 Nov 1994 Duncan Ferguson Rangers £4.4m

Thanks, Ian, I've just read your list, the chances of a good nights sleep have just evaporated. . I shall no doubt have nightmares now. What a load of garbage. With a 3 exceptions, Speed, Kanchelskis and Ferguson, who would all walk into todays team..

As for consistency, pretty much every team in the league this season apart from Utd and maybe Southampton will be lamenting a lack of consistency as the reason they didn't do better – City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool for sure. What's makes it that Everton have to be unlike all others? The Wigan game was one match, get over it!

If you really believe that Moyes transfer budget isn't a factor then I really don't think that its worth me engaging with you any further – that isn't me trying to be rude/abusive etc – we're just on different planets if you really believe that.

I also think that you have ability and belief confused – United don't normally beat us because they have more belief, it's because they're better than us. Part of the reason for that is that they can spend £24M on a forward and £20M on a goalkeeper. We can't do that!

Marko, "I am stating facts" have a look back through your abundance of posts on this thread and see if you still believe you are stating facts.

Mark Frere, "go on Marko you have destroyed everyone".....blah blah. That is sycophantic and childish to say the least.

Short, in my opinion, was, at best, average. But he pissed on his chips when he was less than gracious about Everton after leaving.

Don't know where he came from, this Marko. But a breath of fresh air.

Ebbrell and Horne were the journeymen in midfield, for me.

Heheh... if you know your history, MarKo co-founded ToffeeWeb before it was called ToffeeWeb 19 years ago.

He's not had much to do with the site for many a year now but popped over from the People's Forum to add some balance to what many feel is a relentlessly anti-Moyes bent from some of TW's most frequent commenters. :)

Hell, Moyes gets it in the neck just like any manager does from supporters. All in the game.

My view is that Moyes or anyone, our ownership remains. So, we're fucked. Add to that Moyes is one of the few who makes a difference? We're double fucked.

Anyhoo, Marko, you breath of fresh air (may I call you "The Breath"), keep em coming.

Looks like Distin wasn't the only one robbed by Liverpool.

File under the ever-growing file titled 'Outraged by everything, ashamed of nothing'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn?INTCMP=SRCH

At least I hope you were drunk.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but hey, I'm just trying to fit in with those who want the site to feel a bit more positive – and if you want you can remove David Moyes name and insert Bill Kenwright's it works just the same.

I don’t expect Moyes to replace Distin or Jagielka with Duffy – but he had opportunities when they were injured. So Heitinga is a Dutch International (you have the wrong tense – he was a Dutch international). Now I frankly don’t rate him. Before you quickly tap into your vastly superior banks of knowledge on player statistics, I am referring to the 3 or 4 games when he lost us points due to his inability to defend.

You assume we’re all ‘playing too much football management’ – and you dismiss our reserves and bench as not capable of playing to the standards required in the Premier League. You state that Vellios is slower than Anichebe. No doubt you have a manual of footballer foot-race speeds. I have actually seen enough of Vellios to dispute your assertion. Vellios is a much quicker and agile performer. You haven’t seen enough of Vellios to justify his selection for the simple reason that he isn’t given a chance.

I don’t know if you have ever participated in any team sports, or been involved in management of a team at some level, but let me repeat your unsatisfactory answer to my original question: “You make the false assumption that since some players on the pitch are not playing well there must be better player in the reserves. There really is nothing to suggest this.”

Your arrogance is staggering! How can you judge a player when he is given two or three 5 minutes spells as a substitute? If these players are not good enough, then they shouldn’t be on the bench. When the opportunity arises, they should be given more playing time in the first team. What is achieved by bringing on tried and tested under-performers like Naismith, Neville and Jagielka?

Let’s look at Jelavic. He began playing badly. Each game he got progressively worse. The alarm bells should have started ringing, but Moyes didn’t hear them. He continued selecting the man, which began to seriously dent his confidence. Moyes should have put him straight in the reserves after 3 or 4 bad games, and got him scoring goals again. I appreciate it would have been against inferior opposition but it would have boosted his confidence – this is a no-brainer. Moyes did eventually drop him to the bench – but that didn’t work. Moyes failed the player badly – and this is where he lacks basis man-management skills.

So Marko, you infer you have an inside knowledge of our bench, and are familiar with our reserves’ playing ability. My God you get around! You suggest that many of the contributors to this site don’t know what they’re talking about, but with your superior knowledge, and armed with you statistics, you do.

Apart from half a dozen games this season, we have been playing absolute rubbish. You are obviously happy watching rubbish – I am not. I’ve watched the greats over the years, going back to Roy Vernon, Alex Young, Colin Harvey, Labone, Ball etc. There was a reason why we were named ‘The School of Science’. Sadly that does not apply to our team today, and I put this down to our manager. Your support for him is touching, but misguided – but if you’re prepared to watch that garbage, week-in and week-out, then you really do know nothing about football.

You also think you know how to boost a players confidence. Funnily enough, Moyes recently said in an interview they have tried everything to get Jela's confidence back. But I'm sure you know more about this than Everton and the entire backroom staff at Everton. Hey, it's a "no-brainer" for you so you should really be in management – you'd make millions a season if someone like Moyes does it. By your reckoning you are much better than him so the sky's the limit, right? While you are at it, you should tell the CERN guys what to do with the Higgs particle...

Interestingly a club like Chelsea kept playing Torres when he was blatantly not in form. And that's a club that can splash out 20-30 million on a new forward. Moyes had someone who was fantastic just six months ago, someone who has never been profilic and a total unknown to choose from. And remember he sees these guys every day in training. Yet you think you know better than Everton's or Chelsea's staff what should be done.

And I'm arrogant?

Max in any case proves that he lives in the past. Everton have last played great football before Premier League was invented. It is silly to think that changing the manager will change this 25-year-old fact. None of the managers before Moyes in the PL era had the team play exciting. There were blips like the semi against Spurs, but I could point to games where Everton have played fantastically during the Moyes era and I know you would say it doesn't matter.

You seriously compare the Mersey Millionaires with today's paupers? The Everton managers at that time could sign players like Alan Ball - the hottest young prospect in the isles. Moyes on the other hand, was forced to sell the hottest young prospect of his generation, Wayne Rooney to keep the club afloat.

Don't you think you are a bit unrealistic? Other clubs in PL spend hundred of millions on players yet somehow Moyes should recreate the 60s team with no money (something that Catterick didn't have to do thanks to Moore).

The simple fact is that by laws of probability, a managerial change will lead to at least some sort of decline because by large league positions in modern PL are defined by turnover. Good managers like Moyes can overachieve, bad managers underachieve. Everton do not have the 6th highest turnover, so by that fact Moyes and Everton are overachieving and it is more likely that whoever is appointed next will do worse. Logic: if about 10th is on par for Everton, then 50% of managers will do worse and 50% better. But since gaining positions above 10th gets progressively more difficult getting from 10th to 9th is easier than getting from 7th to 6th (or higher).

If it is so easy to appoint a good manager, like some of you take for granted, then why has Lerner failed? He has at least pumped a lot of money into Aston Villa and look at the results? With such appointments Everton would be going down because the managers wouldn't even had any money. And Lambert was, after all, the flavour of the month when he was appointed - and many Everton fans wanted him to replace Moyes. Or maybe it was Pardew? Remember someone saying we should have someone like him as the manager. Again, Newcastle have spent much more on players and wages than Everton (they could gamble on Ba for instance, Moyes couldn't).

Let's see where the delusion lies this time next year without Moyes. Of course, you won't care, long as the manager's not Moyes, yes?

We'll see.

"Marko Poutiainen, what a man! I think it is funny the Moyes-haters telling him to calm it down, relax and not take himself so seriously. Pot, kettle and black springs to mind..."

Yes, another fallen for utter delusion. Us MOBs are criticised for being deluded, yet Marko is praised for his complete arrogance, his personal rants against others for having a different view to him.

Marko is the new Dodd. He fails to see that Moyes has a fault at all. Sad to see.

"I think it is funny the Moyes-haters telling him to calm it down, relax and not take himself so seriously."

At least we don't launch a personal attack and accuse people of never watching a match, just because we have a differing view.

Similarly, our hopes for Moyes's successor will no doubt be somewhat tempered by our awareness of the situation at Board level & the constraints any manager at the club has to operate within. Whilst Moyes's new contract remains unsigned, there is bound to be speculation & debate regarding the position, both from those who hope he leaves & those who hope he stays.

Furthermore, it is hardly surprising that people will discuss the manager's performance now that we have reached the tail-end of the season. Why would you be flabbergasted that folk are discussing a situation that may be about to change, rather than one that looks as though it may never change, ever?

Silent!?

Ha ha ha!!

You must be fucking kidding!

Yeah THAT'S what Dodd, Entwistle et al are - silent.

Fact: Like a cheap suit, they're all over any post containing the name Moyes.

In fact in some posts that just mention the name Moyes, they leap in with (what they hope will be) a preemptive "Oh this is not going to become another..." etc blah.

And James, if you have an opinion, why not express it rather than sanctimoniously telling us your 'part of the silent majority'

(oh wait, in a round-about way, you HAVE so in fact NOT that silent yourself).

Often wondered why so many who are pro-Moyes, hint (or actually state) they possess some kind of innate reasonableness (and by implication, those with a contrary opinion, an unreasonableness (is it because frothing-at-the-mouth wild dogs that dogs that they are, they would like a change in manager after 11 years)

The reality is people post on Moyes (pro/against) and 99% give reasons as to why they think he should go/stay and all the 'MOB' 'Moyes-haters' bollocks simply smacks of deflection (which I personally will always put down to lack of argument).

I don't lack ambition but I'm realistic and accept that without investment we ain't going higher.

What I find interesting is the lack of alternatives the Moyes knockers offer as his replacement so please tell me Eugene who would you like in charge next season?

True, absoultely true....and?

Sorry but (deliberately or not) you miss the point/s.

Their opinions (as I clearly pointed out) generally don't also come with the 'I'm dead reasonable me' tag attached.

In other words, they aren't stupidly voicing their opinion THEN referring to themselves as the silent anything.

You state you are part of the 'silent majority' yet you're not THAT silent as we all know your opinions – a contradiction?

(nb: NOTHING wrong with expressing your opinions, I'm all for it, but to want us to also buy into some idea that you're Mr Reasonable who sits in silence while Moyes is attacked is plainly bollocks).

You finish – "what I find interesting is the lack of alternatives the Moyes knockers offer as his replacement so please tell me Eugene who would you like in charge next season?"

Well as this question has been asked (and answered) four krillion zillion times over the last few years (figures from The University of Please Yourself, California) I'm tempted to say 'go through the old TW Moyes links – you'll find plenty of suggestions for alternatives (you won't agree with them but those who see Moyes as irreplaceable rarely do).

However, just to show willing – I'd be more than happy with (a winner like) Laudrup.

Find it on t'internet and watch it, you'll only need to watch the first 45 minutes after which he was hauled off.

Then come back and tell us how wonderful he is.

If a minority are anti Moyes, as the recent poll might suggest, then to hear quite a bit from them is par for the course. As ive mentioned before, friends who don't use ToffeeWeb do raise this image thing - about the site being anti Moyes. My view is that it isn't.

The one thing I don't really get is why sometimes the same point is made repeatedly by the same person in a thread. I get the point the first time - why address every 'pro' post and also those with no preference indicated with the same argument?

Not sure how myself or Dodd as mentioned by Eugene can be over any post that merely mentions the name of Moyes - 'raghhh! must have more of the status quo! raghhhh!' - unless there's been something posted where we would feel the need to defend his Holiness

The pre-emptive stuff was quite funny as the absurdity of Ross Edward's to jump in first and link any story to his MOBisms in the past couple of weeks went from being a joke to actually being a joke.

Joe Royle won the FA Cup and what an amazing day/week that gave us but you can't seriously say he was a great manager because of that? Rafa won the biggest cup going but couldn't hack it in the league with all the money he was given so was he great?

I'm not a stato so can't remember who it was but didn't Birmingham win the League Cup and get relegated... was that another great one?

Can't help yourself can you - 'lay off him'!?

Eh?

I have rarely laid ON him (fnaar).

Go on have a look for my hateful anti-Moyes diatribes.

My opinions on Moyes are of a very none-personal sort and I'm on record as saying (many times) I think he's a good man and I don't think he's a shit manager.

But for the same reason as I'd change my wallpaper after 11 years, I'd change Moyes.

Why?

To spell it out (as it seems I must) because I think things/people (understandably) get stale.

I also think he's a philosophically a presbyterian so has an in-built safety-first mechanism.

A great thing to have in a sorts of areas in life, but not imo something that will or does produce winning football teams.

Oh and your looking to criticise managers who HAVE won trophies is desperately weak particularly (re Birmingham) the implication that to win a trophy we must embrace relegation.

Finally, the deflection - "Joe Royle won the FA Cup and what an amazing day/week that gave us but you can't seriously say he was a great manager because of that? Rafa won the biggest cup going but couldn't hack it in the league with all the money he was given so was he great?"

Did I say Joe Royle was a great manager? (or even mention him)

No.

Did I mention Rafa?

No - sorry but you're now desperately inventing nonsense.

You say you laugh at my suggestion of Laudrup as a winner?

Well laugh all you want, he's WON a trophy, he IS a winner (nb: so is Rafa, so is Joe Royle).

Moyes...isn't.

(maybe Marko could provide you with the trophies won stats?)

Some on here think Moyes is a very dour,safety first manager.A manager who refuses to take a chance to turn a draw (15 of them this season)into a win in case he turns it into a defeat.A manager who repeatedly refuses to go for the killer second goal but instead takes forwards off and replaces them with hard running grafters.

And some think he plays wonderful football and overachieves every season by finishing around 6th,and by repeatedly getting knocked out of cups by weaker opposition.
Each to their own.

However, if you did you might find it's not much of a debate as you may well be preaching to the converted. Just take a look at the debates relating to Blue Union. Even if support for BU is not universal, support for the Board is almost entirely conspicuous by its absence,

I'm sure that if one of these take-over rumours turned out not to be groundless then the prospect of imminent change in the Boardroom would spark much debate. As it is, we're just about at the end of the season under a manager who has not yet committed his future to the club - surely it would be a bit more flabbergasting if Moyes were not a focus of debate on TW.

So is Moyes what Nick - a winner?

Well fine but I was (as you can see by my use of the word 'trophies' and 'trophy') referring to managers like those mentioned by James (of the the not so silent majority) who have picked up a domestic or European honour.

Your use of winner (I'm guessing) is more like that of a teacher at a school sports day for infants who tells them 'you're ALL winners', rather than someone (like Laudrup) who has ACTUALLY won something

(to be fair though, given so much of today's football is about money, Moyes's incredible wages suggest he's DEFINTELY a winner in that regard).

My original post was just to say that Marko's input was a breath of fresh air as to be honest whilst there is some pro Moyes stuff on here the negative stuff comes over a lot lot stronger (not a criticism just an observation) and is very predictable – just like Moyes's football I hear you say!!!

Also apart from an unknown European punt that I wouldn't have heard of due to my lack of Euro knowledge I'd take laudrup as my choice if Moyes departed... but would he come without the investment we need or wait for a bigger ticket? – who knows.

My view is Everton and Moyes are like marriage: sometimes dreary, sometimes great... but divorce is a fuck of a risk unless you have something excellent lined up as replacement!!!

Does it need to be listed again - spend, or even net spend (compared with most other teams in the league), average number of points achieved, league placings, a comparison with our Premier League form pre-Moyes, the opinions of virtually all (no...all actually) commentators and independent pundits (i.e. people who have actually played and managed the game to a high level), how many other teams have fared in the last 11 years etc and bloody etc.

And in return what do we get.....Oh I know, he hasn't won a cup. How many cups have we actually won in the last 60/70 years because I'm assuming that you must have some kind of benchmark that establishes that the last 11 years have been some sort of unusual period for Everton. As much as it pains me to say so I watched such periods in the 70's and the 90's and people before my time witnessed it in the 50's. I'm simply saying that it's nothing unusual except that the football in those decades (can't speak for the 50's) was rubbish.

This is the best team that I have seen at EFC since the mid 80's and before that the 60's, and this in a period when all the cards are actually stacked against him.

So, assuming we don't get a change of ownership or an injection of cash (and I presume that none of us is predicting that) where is the evidence that a change of manager will improve our lot?

Last week, we were accused of being in a cult, by a MOB member who suggested Anichebe should play in midfield!

I think it cuts both ways.

Gary - thanks for replying to Ross - its been pointed out many times why the majority want him to stay but some people don't do a lot of reading do they!!

Now you, Kevin Hudson and t'others - what's your idea?

BTW Moyes had Vic left midfield the other day!

Well firstly, that's not the case, Ferguson's father was Church Of Scotland, his mother was a catholic and he himself married a catholic.

Not important or relevant though as if you had READ what I wrote, you'll see I didn't actually say Moyes was a presbyterian.

I said he's PHILOSOPHICALLY a presbyterian (figure out the difference yourself).

As for the wallpaper, well if it works and continues to make you happym like say a nice Ferguson anaglypta that never goes out of style - keep it.

If however you're stuck with a Moyes chipwood that just looks a bit tatty and depresses you, probably time to change it.

You add - "my original post was just to say that Marko's input was a breath of fresh air"

Amazing, what a coincidence, same opinion as you and it's a 'breath of fresh air'

(and here was me thinking it was just some anti mob stuff).

What I WILL commend you on though is your sense of the surreal.

Four posts already - you're now officially the loudest member of the 'silent majority'.

You know, what having won something...

How could using Anichebe in midfield wipe out our debt? Unless you sold Fellaini and didn't reinvest any of it. I'm sorry but Anichebe has never shown the sightest inclination that he'd be able to play in midfield. Controlling the ball is a challenge for him, passing it a few yards is also a challenge. He is absolutely atrocious out wide offering nothing more thanoccasional work rate. The only position he is of any use in is up front and even that is open to debate. Do you think Anichebe in centre mid would improve the football? Who would he partner? Barkley? Oviedo on the flank. So a midfield of Oviedo Barkley Anichebe and one other? I can see why Moyes sticks with Gibson and Pienaar to be honest.

My plan is one that I've always made abundantly clear. Sell Fellaini for whichever idiot is stupid enough to pay the most for him, and use the money to buy a real creative midfielder (in the Arteta mould) and a wideman so that Mirallas could be used behind Jelavic. That would result in a fluid footballing three slotting balls into Jelavic backed up by Gibson and one other who would distribute forwards quickly. Football would be better and we'd have a crack at getting the top 4 relieveing us of soe of our debt issues.

I would have had Moyes down for the sea shell artex pattern that everyones ma had on the ceiling for about 40 years.
Fashionable at the time but out of style now

Trophies are almost the exclusive preserve of money - compare the league and cup winners of the last decade with any decade prior to the premier league and the stats speak for themselves.

Oddities like Swansea are rare. Most of the small number of non money teams to have won trophies have sank out of sight. If it came to a choice I wouldn't swap their single trophy for our consistency, our ability to put the shits up anyone coming into a raucous Goodison thinking they're going to get it easy.

It's shit that we don't win trophies but the evidence for why that is the case is completely overwhelming - pay to join the party, or sit in the kitchen like the quiet girl everyone likes because shes no threat to the fit birds.

One of the other arguments against Moyes is that we don't play good football. Again please show me a team in the last ten years who've played consistent good football outside of the money teams. It just doesnt happen. Teams get highlighted on TW from time to time but it's only ever a short spell, like Swansea this season before they fell down. Sunderland twatted Chelsea at SB two years ago, were in the top six, then fell apart. Blackpool did the same, Bolton about four years ago, Newcastles season last year ( joy...please let them go down!) We even had some bullshit about that Facist loving dick at Sunderland being an example. Jesus talk about short termism. They're crap, all of them.

No one plays good football consistently without the money to pay for it. It never happens. They're fodder for the pretty boys. We're leading the fight to buck the money trend , to stick one on the rich boys and their expensive cars and straight teeth. Yet again we've finished closest. Just imagine if Jelavich had held last years form for even half of this season. Boy oh boy. Fuckadoodledandy just how happy would we all be, right now

Next you'll be telling me it's because he's a Taurean. (He is btw)

But this is football, it's all about the dream, we would never go to a match again if we looked upon pounds per highlights, or goals scored against what we invest, emotionally and financially.

The fact is, we may just find the next Mourinho, Ferguson, Kendall, Wenger. It may a 100/1 chance, but he may be out there, waiting for a big club to trust him- as we did with Moyes. The support is in place, FFS, we sell out every away game. We have a top 8 squad at the minimum, with a few bob to spend the summer.

To me, it's just surrendering if we are told we have to settle for 6th/7th/8th, or never to win a trophy again.

Maybe I'm a Presbyterian, airing on the side of caution.

And that, Kevin, is the danger, by definition. 100-1 against. You've said it yourself. Long odds against but WTF let's have a change.

I don't get this... we don't have to do anything. I don't think anyone settles, least of all Moyes of 6th, even 5th... in fact he or we wouldn't settle for 4th because we always want more... in fact we want everything.

Hey Martinez, here's 15 decent players, you've got no transfer kitty, you can only have zero net spend in 2 out of every seven windows so forget about buying anyone, now go out there and keep up with the European champions, the two richest clubs in the world, the biggest club in the world, and in case you think you can keep up with Arsenal and Spurs, you haven't got a Bale, 60,000 seats or champions league to draw in equivalent players. But play Barkley ahead of Osman and you'll be fine...

Just beat lower ranked teams in cup competitions, is that so hard?

Clearly for Moyes it is like crawling up Everest.

We won't mention what he did in the FA cup because we all know it was just luck!

Ah yes Nick, maybe I should have specified won a trophy for a Premier League side (I assumed that's what people would automatically think but there's always one person desperate to 'win' an argument).

I now realise the confusion there could be using YOUR understanding of the word winner and hope I have cleared things up

By the way, given your use of the word (ie: 'someone who has won something'), I myself could be considered a winner, having hit a coconut at St Margaret Mary's summer fete in 1970 and won a goldfish.

Now just point me a that £15m contract!

What ambition. What a bleeding future.

I'm on Mersyeside. Not telling you where - you might come and get me, mate!

If you wanted to say Wigan have done great under Martinez then at least one midtable finish would have been alright, but they reside in the relegation zone forever and a day.

and that word is

INDEFENSIBLE

we can talk about budgets and turnover all you like and offer as many excuses as you wish but to try to explain away his lamentable attempts at winning big pressure matches is folly

Just can't see how anyone can seriously give Wigan any chance they're effectively Tranmere.

I dunno Sean, QF in the FA Cup isn't indefensible.

So money counts.

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/wigan-athletics-unlikely-survival.html

If people think Moyes has it bad, because of his meagre transfer kitty, this shows Martinez doesn't have it so easy.

Wigan operate on about 2/3rds of our wage structure, and Martinez has run a transfer surplus in the last couple of seasons.

Yes, they may go down this season, but he's managed to keep them competitive against clubs operating on FAR bigger budgets for many, many seasons.

Also, people shouldn't just focus on net spend. Its because we have shite like Neville, Hetinga and Naismith eating up cash and leaving us with no money in the bank that Moyes often has bugger all to spend. Selling those 3 alone would probably give him the option to buy a few very good, young players.

It makes virtually no difference if we finish 6th or 12th. Qualifying for european competition would be something. Moving the club to a sound financial footing and remaining competitive in the PL would be a real achievement. Getting to a final would be nice, and winning something would be great.

What we need is a manager with a sustainable long term plan which has some chance of making us competitive with the big boys. Moyes only plan is to blackmail the club to spend more than it can afford in an effort to keep up with Sheik Mansoors billions. Then he'll fuck off to celtic when the club ends up in administration and the idiots amongst our fan-base will finally wake up and realise that we were only ever a vehicle for his personal ambitions.

Sorry, but I think we need someone with a bit more bloody common sense at the helm. Someone who is prepared to actively sell his best players for mega-bucks and promote from the youth squad. That is the only way that in the long term we will be able to improve the squad sufficiently to get close to competing with the top 4. We won't do it by trying to compete with City and Utd for the finished article or giving players 70k / week salaries.

We go on a run and get to the semi's, and qualify the next season. We are now on a roll, and an attraction for some top talent. We sign three or four top youth prospects from around Europe, all getting their chance in the first team. The stars align and our youth system throws in a couple of young players from the academy ( Five of the first team from Dortmund came through the academy )

It's not as far away some would have you believe.

Yes, by the same token 6/7th in the Prem is a long winded way of saying zero.

The question for me is how well DM has performed overeall, in the league and the cups, season in and season out. And what I see is preferable to being in the shout for a cup but facing a relegation struggle.

No doubt they're well run, but Martinez hasn't even come close to doing anything but a slow death having the likes of Burnley, Wolves and Hull to finish above it was a shame he didn't have one more such club to compete against... well he did but they seem to have finished top half...

Your point about DM shows, perhaps, how good he can be.

All teams occasionally twat a team above them. But as things stand, who is in the better league position? Who has demonstrated long term an ability to avoid relegation - sorry, do much more than that.

I know it suits you and the other Moyes pals to claim this simplistic guff but it's fiction.

Moyes has consistency, I'll absolutely give him that, but we've hit a ceiling and there is no way up given the way Moyes wants to move the club forward, which is to play the big boys at their own game. Even treading water is looking increasingly difficult as clubs like the RS and Newcastle who have higher turnovers than us will no doubt have a good season at some point.

Also, I don't think you could describe wigan as a failure. Their ability to consistently survive over the years on one of the smallest budgets in the league all the while not playing shite football....not to mention a possible trophy this season, is a testament to Martinez and Whelan

Finally Brendan, none of us are saying that if Moyes were given more money we wouldn't do better. The key thing is we can't give DM more money without risking the clubs future. Its simply not an option. We need a manager who is happy to take us forward as best they can with what money we can safely spend.

I had this comparing like with like stuff before with someone else - what's going on?

That, to my mind, unfortunately is Martinez's biggest failing. You can bring in wage structures, net spend, or whatever you want but the simple fact is that even with better players and better football Martinez has not improved Wigan's league form in all the years he's been there. Say what you want about Moyes but he rocketed our league form upwards from being relegation fodder to finishing behind the privileged few. In terms of the realities of the 21st century premier league by the only measure that matters in this league (league form) David Moyes has improved Everton and Martinez has not improved Wigan. And for a manager who has been there as long as he has that's not good enough.

The hardest position to jump in the premier league is from fifth to fourth. We bashed our heads against it for ages and so are Spurs now. Conversely even if we finish 6th or 7th I think most would argue we are closer to the top 4 than we have ever been even when we were coming 5th. It takes a lot of work to bridge this gap without serious money. It does not, however, take that much work to go from the bottom of the premier league to lower mid-table. Lambert and Rodgers did it in their first seasons, Laudrup has come in and pushed it further (depsite selling all his supposed best players). Even Pulis has made the transition whilst Big Sam has come in and managed it in his first season. Yet there is this manager with the benefit of longevity and experience over nearly all of these managers continuously struggling to get Wigan away from the bottom of the league. Do people not seriously question why they haven't improved?

Moyes is consistent. It annoyes some people and osmetimes it annoyes me as well especially when he's consistent in his failings. But I'll never get tired of watching Everton sides that know how to defend properly, that know how to implement a tactical plan and play to formation, that play to a consistently decent standard most weeks of the season (sure the odd itme we'll be diabolical, the odd itme we'll be brilliant). Wigan pre-April every season are an absolute shambolic mess often getting tonked home and away by the fodder of this league that we're putting away most weeks. They barely have any notion of how to defend, or any sort of motivation or desire not to get beaten. There's been times they've come to Goodison in the league and we haven't even played that well and strolled comfortably to three points agianst a team that could barely function in any department. After the amount of itme that Martinez has been there that should not be happening, they should not be that hapless regardless of their wage structure. There is no team ethos there, there is no tactical plan, there is no idea of how to go about winning premier league games either at home or away.

What Martinez can do is for the odd occasion fire up his talented side to outstanding levels of perfromance when they aboslutely have to give it. Perhaps we'd win a few at Anfield (if it was late in the season of course) but for me that is not worth traidng for the prospect of turning up at Goodison knowing that we oculd easily be absolutely battered 4 or 5-0. Top sides don't do that. We have lost one at home all season this year and didn't even deserve to lose that. Based on his past performance Martinez is never going to be capable of that type of record.

If he was a top manager Wigan would not be going down, it really is that simple. Martinez's side don't play good football. They play football that consistently loses premier league matches. That is never good, its never fun to watch, and I certainly don't want it at Everton.

Hmm there is one team that doesn't fit that rule, Brent

Off the pace tonight mate

Moyes rings him up saying "can you believe this gig I've got here???"

Where in that is the "Not the only bit" thingy you talk of?

Can't you see that you're excusing Martinez on the basis of lack of dosh, but wouldn't do that for DM.

Maybe I'm getting tired.

Stuck betwixt football dynasties with little to no fanbase corrupted further by rugby, they don't have the name, history or pedigree to call upon.

Imagine a decent young player comes along and the choice is us or wigan ... it ain't just the cash!

You did NOT say it was not the only thing. You said "read the bit about..." No use now trying to say there was a hint! Talk about off the pace. Jeez.

It would be foolish to claim there is no risk in making a change of manager. However, unless we employ another Mike Walker, I can't see any reason for us to drop below mid table. Who can tell whether another manager would be successful in cup football until it happens? But I am confident that Moyes won't be.

I wouldn't claim my view is necessarily entirely rational. After all football is an emotional matter. The desire to see your team winning silverware regardless of the factors that may diminish your realistic chances is probably totally irrational. But when Moyes goes there'll be a queue for the job, despite the likelihood of failing to even match his performance.

Personally, I'd take Moyes any day. I'm confident that, if we got some investment from somewhere, Moyes would take us forward...because he has progressed this football club, and our, and his weaknesses, are few. A top striker, and better squad depth, and another top cm would do take us into the top four, at least atm. But there is a limit to what we can do whilst spending 10-50mil a year less than those around us.

My point was locality and history being factors additional to finance!!!

Brent... please read post 090, it's in there - not that it matters a jot.

How slow are you boys tonight?

First you countered by trying to say the hint (!) was all in the ref to Tranmere. Now you're trying to say it was all clear - in a later post! Couldn't make it up!

Now on to other threads about U21s and Fergie Moyes to Old Trafford?!)

Moyes has done an excellent job in transforming the playing side of the club; getting rid of deadwood and bringing in some real quality throughout. I, like us all, am disappointed he has never won us any silverware in the last 11 years. At the same time, however, I feel he has created a side that — with retention of our best players, the right manager and the right additions — can really hit the heights next season.

What concerns me at the moment, though, is that — should the media be believed, our outgoing boss appears to be having/possibly having an influence over who will be coming in to replace him. After the Chelsea game, Moyes is gone; we thank him and move on. The thought of Moyes advocating Neville as our next manager does not appeal to me, nor does the thought of the new Manchester United boss having a say in our club.

I've always had a lot of time for Neville but I do not want a Man Utd connection taking over the reigns. Should Neville take over, I already envisage deals involving the likes of Nani, Anderson etc, not to mention any of our own players. I want a manager who has nothing to do with the Mancs; someone who is willing to come in and not just take it to them, but take it to all the top teams (particularly in away games).

Who the new man is to be, I do not know (personally I'd like Martinez), but I just hope it isn't Neville for the above reasons.