An Unforgivable Collapse

Will the now owner have an answer?

He has to go!!!

Dreadful.

I feel so sick inside – my team just does not feel like my team anymore... Gutted, I just want to cry.

Stop the fucking crosses!

Funes Mori seems to enjoy his goalscoring antics but is lacking what he is in the team for which is to stop them scoring.

Next week is the big game – lose that and we will be baying for his head. Possibly the new owner will have reservations about Martinez's credentials for taking this team forward.

Don't think I could sum up today more succinctly. For the first time in a long while I left the ground and wasn't angry/frustrated at what I'd witnessed. How can so many of us be wrong and Roberto so right?

Lennon was constantly harrying, not necessarily getting near them most of the time but forcing them to play the ball. Bilic wasn't far from us and was trying to get his players to calm down, which Lennon wasn't letting them do.

Roberto has plucked a few gems in his time, but first impressions of Niasse scare me. We were playing with 9 men when he came on, no pressure on the ball which allowed Bilic to do what he wanted, no wonder he clapped Lennon when he was substituted.

What is unforgivable is not holding onto a 2 goal lead through inept management with only a quarter of the game left, we had done the hard work by going 2 up.

Martinez should have bought on 2 more defensive minded players and if necessary have gone 6 at the back, seen the game out in our own half and slotted 3 points.

What does he do? Brings on an unfit striker and a midfielder.

No chance of him being sacked before Chelsea put us to the sword but after that... Ta ta and thanks for fuck all.

If this forum was ever read by any of Everton's Personnel, surely a word or two would or should have got to the manager, board or players by now. If this forum is not given any heed or credence, then what is the point of having it.

Perhaps 50-60% is waffle but the rest is from the heart and relevant. Even the underlying comments of the waffling is full of honest gripes.

I am not saying don't get things off your chest on ToffeeWeb, just, what good does it do.

So please continue with ToffeeWeb but treat it as a agony aunt column.

"Thanks for fuck all" is a bit harsh - he has signed us some good players.

We've got a problem, Houston.

All our better players were used and they failed to withstand a bombardment of crosses when WHU brought the big guys on. Jags won a lot of headers but Funes Mori did not get off the ground today. Both fullbacks did nothing to stop the crosses.These are supposedly top players receiving top money and if they can be allowed to hide behind the manager then that is grossly unjust. The mistake IMO was taking Stones off as he could have attempted to clear the crosses which rained into our box.

Our players have repeatedly failed to see out games at Goodison from winning positions and they are the most to blame.

If the fans on this site just want Martinez sacked then so be it, but if our players are wilting after 75 minutes it is up to them to put things right!

The tactic of having three at the back was working very well until Mirallas was sent off.

I could buy Lionel Messi's boots but I'd still be shite in them.

He has delivered nothing but average football bordering on relegation form for the majority of his tenure.

I can't believe some people are blaming Lukaku today. Yes he missed a pen, yes he was through one on one and you'd back him to score from that chance which muscled into himself. Strikers miss chances (but pens shouldn't ever be missed, granted)

But he was excellent overall today all over the pitch and put a massive shift in by the time he was subbed, knackered.

Before people forget, he scored one goal (out of nothing) today, and provided the assist for Lennon too and was a constant threat to WHU defence.

By the way, his goals have carried us this season. Take them away and we would be somewhere not far off Villa, somewhere our incompetent manager and his staff are very familiar with as a League placing.

It's time for action now. If we get beaten next week Goodison will be a very nasty, hostile place for him.

If you think John Stones is the answer to clearing crosses then you either haven't watched much of Everton playing or you just don't see what goes on. He is as poor a centre half in the air as we have had in a long time. His reputation is built on skills on the ball, not defensive ability.

Jagielka was immense today putting his body on the line and Funes Mori also put in a decent shift. The problem was the pressure became too much when Bilic was able to take off a defender, who he had to have covering Lennon, and replace with a midfielder who was able to add to the numbers swamping our defence. We were left with a totally ineffective additional striker strolling round in a daze doing fuck all.

I'm not *blindly* blaming Martinez there, I saw that very clearly and there is only one person responsible for that little gem of a decision, effectively leaving us with 9 against 11. 12 counting that prick Taylor.

Bilic's tactic going into the last 15 minutes: get big blokes on to head crosses into the net. Our tactic: get small quick blokes to stop the crosses going to the big blokes. It was working.

What do we do? Take off one of the cross-stoppers and put on another bloke to run around further up the pitch – not where the crosses are coming from.

What happens next?

Of courses the manager has to blamed, it's happened far too many times now, whatever his problem is with seeing out games from a winning position it's obvious Roberto will never find the answer.

There was a period in the Villa game were it could of happened, if he is allowed to carry on after the season ends, there is no depths we can not sink to next season, be warned!

Stones stunk the place out today first half. Made one decent tackle and that was a recovery tackle after losing the ball with a shit pass. General consensus I got today from everyone I spoke to was get rid.

Go to the match and watch the lad. His body language tells you everything. He either doesn't want to be at the club or play for the manager. Maybe both.

Everton conceding in the latter 15 minutes is because the opposition throw caution to the wind and pump balls into our 18-yard box. It's that simple. We should defend 15-yards more forward and rely on the opposition to score by being precise and clever rather than attrition.

Local Journalists need to ask obvious questions. The Liverpool Echo and Radio Merseyside need to ask questions they hear from phone lines and Twitter. My question to Roberto would be: "As a Manager, why have you had a consistently poor goals-against record and why haven't you addressed this issue with experience?"

Rather than watch two matches on tele whilst his wife watches Corrie in the other half of the room, he needs to swallow his pride, listen to what the fans say on phone-ins and websites. It comes down to one question: "Why do your teams leak goals?" Q2 (But you are too stubborn to consider:) Why don't you address your Achilles heel?

Simply put, simply out of his depth,

Please go

I remember Kendall (Mk III), Walker, Smith... things had been so bad for such a long time before they got the bullet. Everton are 11th and still in the FA Cup and there is no way the board will pull the trigger, particular with the investment in the club still to be finalised. I think we have only seen Part 1 of the plan for new investment.....

I agree that Lennon was our form player today so it was strange to see him get subbed. Maybe he picked up a knock, maybe he was tiring (I'll give Martinez the benefit of the doubt) but not to bring on an experienced midfielder to shore things up was inexcusable. I'll reserve judgement at this stage but Niasse reminds me of Bakayoko Mk II.

Final point, how bad are we at set pieces? we need to take corner duty off Barkley, his distribution from corners is really poor, his free kicks not a great deal better. Of all our corner kick takers I would opt for Oviedo.

Subs:
Besic 5 was with Martinez on this HT substitution, offered little when he came on other than getting fouled and one full on challenge which got the crowd going.
Niasse 4 – Bakayoko Mark II.
Barry 5 must of wished he had stayed in bed.

A more pragmatic approach understands you can only capitalize when you can reinforce your position. The recent W.B.A game is a recent example, it's not pretty but it's effective. Winning is always a blend of both risk and protection, Martinez will not accept that, he admitted it in the recent Guardian article. Somewhere along the line the philosophy might change but it won't be at Everton. I suspect he'd have to hit his nadir for that.

Look closely at this season, look who our wins have been against and the form of those teams. Look closely at his in game management skills. Look closely into his teams abilities on set pieces.

Listen carefully to his interviews and try to pick out the bits where he talks tactically about a game opposed to just waxing lyrical.

None of this is new or surprising and this close inspection of Martinez credentials should have been done by the custodians of our once great club.

Martinez was not, is not and never will be the right choice to be Manager of Everton FC. Please end this farce, ASAP.

1. Get new manager;
2. Get as much money as possible for John Stones (the best young defender in England... really???)
3. Get a new goalkeeper.

I have developed in training a method to help my players understand the importance of shape on a pitch. It's not rocket science but has taken 12 months to get right (they are children, remember) and now, when we lose the ball, I call out "Shape!" and my team duly revert to a compact shape, which is very difficult for teams to play through.

If children are able to take onboard this concept, what the hell's wrong with Everton's players?

Martinez is the problem.

I like him but the telling thing for me is he blames us not converting the penalty when 2-0 up as the deciding factor.

You don't need a third goal when you're 2-0 up! You've got the game won - the key is to not CONCEDE!!!

I respect him for his belief in attack but his disrespect to defending is unforgivable.

But Its inevitable really, Moshiri will want a return on his investment. That aint gonna happen with the current incumbent unless he has a overnight epiphany and changes his game-management philosophy.

Midway through the second half, you could see their game plan: pump the ball into the box. Not one cross was blocked all game.

He took Lennon off and brought on Niasse... Why? WHY KEEP ATTACKING?

Why not bring on Barry and Baines? Double up on the wings and stop the crosses?

West Ham are average... helped by Anthony Taylor, agreed. But helped by Martinez who played into their hands. He cannot defend his home record and has to go.

The club has a philosophy about youth coming through and I am sure that there are other managers that would look at the squad and the youth setup and think "I can really do something here".

#MartinezOut was trending last night; I tend to agree. His position at the club has become untenable.

Playing two up top when we were a man down gave WHU more room in midfield to press and play. Give Niasse a go but take off Lukaku and keep the shape.

Yes the red card was harsh, but having kept West Ham at Bay only to relinquish a two goal lead AGAIN in the last 12 minutes is a joke.
Plus we have the joys of another home game next week to Chelski in the FA cup we better be 4 up in the final quarter to stand a chance.

Please Roberto just go, get you hat and coat and leave quietly.

His team selection to start with was a cop-out, changing the team around to accommodate one man. Then his second substitution was a joke...

What next? Goalie in and out! Sooner he goes, the better.

Capable of the sublime, I understand the continued faith in some that soon we will 'turn performances into results'.

However we are so weak mentally, and physically. When top teams take the lead, the odds are that they will get the 3 points. With us however, even a two-goal lead with 10 minutes left leaves us vulnerable to defeat.

The players feel it, the fans too. We could blame the players, and they don't get let-off completely, but the mantality and stamina of these players is the responsibility of the management team.

Things we don't have:
-the ability to close out games
-mental strength to deal with the periods of a game when the opposition is on the offensive.
-communication at the back
-fitness to keep going for 90 minutes.
-different tactical approaches to different opposition/ moments in the game,
-confidence in our ability to get 3 points.

This is a shocking state of affairs. Surely our new no1 shareholder and soon to be owner will not put up with this.

With this new investment, the current playing squad and premier league wages, we could attract a top manager (and coaching staff).

We are now a couple of points ahead of two of the three teams promoted last year and we are 22 points behind Leicester. Next Saturday's result will either keep the season alive or end it with a full 10 games to go!

If we lose next Saturday, Kenwright should reflect on what he has achieved during his time as Chairman and of course a defeat next Saturday will add other year since Rideout put the ball in the Man Utd net!

If this failure of Martinez isn’t rectified with his sacking – what will be?

I've always wanted Martinez to succeed, I enjoy watching us (for the first time in years) attack other teams with panache and confidence but every time we lose the ball I always fear the worse. Martinez has now had almost three seasons to work on this and it's obvious that he hasn't even bothered. This is gross misconduct in my book and should lead to his sacking in the summer.

I'm sorry Roberto. I've backed you to the hilt in that I always believed you had the potential to be a top manager but your blatant disregard for all facets of the game, and your worse than pathetic substitutions have made me come to the conclusion that you simply aren't good enough to manage a club like Everton. What is it the saying, the road to hell is paved with good intentions?

Surely our new shareholder must be thinking things over as regards a manager? Think about it: Would you entrust your money to RM to spend? Would you??

What's the moral behind this? The games lasts until the final whistle blows, not 80 minutes. Something our lot need to learn and learn fast.

I love Jags as a player with heart, fearless, tough, a great centre half but not in my opinion a good captain. He neither berates poor play, he neither shouts instructions and worse of all he doesn't seem to challenge the manager on behalf of the players.

All of you, manager and players, state the obvious, state we can't cope with crosses, state we don't train to close out games, state whatever is wrong but for goodness sake state we need / will solve the issue. Klopp after a bloody month said his team can't cope with crosses, set-pieces, he went public and shamed them but stated they will solve the weaknesses.

Martinez won't even acknowledge them and becomes instead the clown who all and sundry, supporters, panellists, journalists mock. But it's actually mocking Everton and this has just got to stop, either get rid of Martinez or Bill and Moshiri force the guy to realise the world out there aren't at a circus.

With Duncan and Unsy around Finch Farm I don't know how their influence cant be getting across. Although we could dust Hibbo off (as he knows how to stop a cross coming in). I'm not giving up on Martinez just yet. I believe his ideals work if carried out properly. Retain possession when you need to, control the game - but when you need to throw your body on the line you need to do it!!

It comes to a pretty pass when even if our team takes a 2/3 goal lead we are fearing the worst, even after total dominance, I believe yesterday was a watershed when expectations that our most talented squad for years finds itself short of the recognised 'safety' figure of 40 points when the reality is we should have been challenging for a place in the Champions League.

This Saturday another loss will see our season officially over and our magnificent supporters, especially those who fill EVERY seat allocated to them at away games sold out, disappointed by inept management and boardroom blunders, Everton Football Club and those supporters deserve so much better and MUST be listened to, Enough Is Enough.

Sure in films and fiction it's possible for the worm to turn – for 'the coward of the county' to get off his stool and give it to the Gatlin boys.

For James Stewart to suddenly decide to put down those law books and take on Lee Marvin using the only language he'll understand.

But reality is very different, in reality you either have 'a pair' or you don't (and 'we' don't).

We're weak up here (taps forehead).

We can be (and are) easily intimidated by bigger boys and part of any 'solution' imo is we need our own big boys.

Basically, we need to find the cock of the PL and buy him (not arsed if he can play, we've got fellers who can play and they throw away 2-0 leads).

Until we have a real captain (who..er..'captains') there will be no change.

Until we have some intimidation factor, there will be no change.

Until we get some steel in there – mental and physical – there will be no change.

Until we get a big mouth in there, there will be no change.

Currently (it's seems to me) we have no 'leadership', so when the going gets tough and players look around for someone to inspire, or for a general to to lead a charge (or organise a retreat) we basically look like the 7th cavalry after Custer had been turned into a human hedgehog by Crazy Horse.

Despite appearances, this is not an attack on our players, whatever their strengths and/or shortcomings, none of them select themselves, none of them decide on substitutions and none of them bought themselves.

The truth, as we all know on here, runs much deeper: he's tactically brain-dead, hasn't got a clue about substitutions, and hasn't got the foggiest how to see a game out from a winning position. The biggest mistake would be – and I've said this a number of times – to give this joker a large war chest in the next window... because, believe me, I dread to think what he would waste it on and we'd be no further up the table this time next season than where we are now.

Nothing will change til he's well gone... but that day I'm afraid is a long way off, regardless if Chelsea spank us at home on Saturday.

Why play three center backs in this game? Is Bobby just trying to be clever and accommodate Stones?

I for one just don't understand why modern day managers feel the need to continually change the personnel and the formation. 4-4-2 – it's basic, it's simple and it works – especially when playing at home.

And please don't tell me I'm a dinosaur. It's been around since the dawn of football and in the present day 4-4-2 puts Leicester City at the top of the Premier League. Dear Bobby, please stop fucking around with our squad, our team and our sanity.

We all know that Stones will be going in the summer so deal with it. Stop messin, stop making ridicules substitutions as though you are a Sunday league kids manager where you feel the need to satisfy all the parents and give everyone a game. STOP FUCKIN AROUND or just GO!

Am I a pissed off Evertonian? – you bet!

But what's going on here? The defence hasn't changed much since Moyes day, but the coaching undoubtedly has. Frankly whatever RM is doing, or not doing, has to stop because it's killing us, whilst one has to admire his footballing philosophy the truth is we have not the players to match AND such ideology has to be tempered by pragmatism.

You can play well and score but you have to learn to defend, practise it, over and over again. Without it, like most who slavishly adhere to any ideology, it fails. Once you are found out and don't change then teams will continue to put us to the sword.

Fortress Everton... remember that? Well okay, let's get pragmatic...

Coleman: he be in the opposition six-yard box, great if he gets on the end of something, horrific if he doesn't – the gaps he leaves are scary. That's down to coaching.

Stones: Cannot head a ball in the box to save his life, great footballer but you don't play football in your own penalty area. Coaching but may still be a luxury to this team.

Jagielka: Nice guy, solid, weak in the air. Does not command a penalty area. In fact none of the defence do. Coaching but frankly not a strong enough character on the pitch.

Barry: Solid for an hour. Good brain and good professional. He knows how to be a stopper (yellow card man), but surely coming to the end of days.

Barkley: Wonderful going forward, useless defending. Coaching and attitude.

Lukaku: Has come on great strides since last season. You can see Duncan's influence in how he can now hold and shield a ball. Needs to get better service. Coaching.

McCarthy: Anonymous in games, wasn't missed when injured because of Besic. Too often in second half there are holes in central midfield you can drive a bus through. Needs replacing.

Mirallas: Great player, positive and hungry but he must have pissed RM off badly this season and his opportunities have been limited as a result. His heart does not seem to be in it under Martinez. He needs a better coach and motivator. I would keep but only if RM goes.

Besic: A Tim Cahill type of dynamo, with attitude, aggressive and driven. Oh for a few more like him in the team. Still inexperienced but a great player in the making. Should replace McCarthy.

Lennon: Had my doubts when we bought him, thought he would struggle but proved me wrong and has been born again.

Howard: A great servant who has struggled last and this season and been the butt of all that is wrong with the defence. He isn't, and wasn't, as is clearly being shown now. But he is 37 and it is time for him to move on for his own sake. He has slipped up too often but has had little if any protection.

Robles: Always a fall back keeper, done well since coming in but not the future of goalkeeping for us.

Fumes Mori: I really like this guy, his attitude and ability to score goals but he too is suffering down to little or no defensive coaching. For that reason the Jury is still out, I think he will be great under the right tutor.

Deulofeu: The criticism of him before his return to Goodison was the lack of team responsibility. For me despite his obvious ability, bucket loads of great skill, too often does he lose possession. Period. Coaching again.

We have great players that we are not making the most of. The danger of course is that under the present coaching regime and managers ideology, we never will.

There is no point in selling a team of possibly the best talent we have seen here for many years, at the altar of commercial pragmatism, ideology is always compromised. If he doesn't change Martinez has to go and that is an immediate conversation BK and our new investor should have this Monday morning.

Sadly for Martinez, I think his ability to change or even manage that change is not there and frankly I don't think he believes it is necessary. That is why he should consider his position and that is why BK should if he doesn't.