Martinez: Hard to explain latest defeat

First and foremost, the goal we conceded. It was basic defending errors, things you learn while playing junior football. Always have a player in front of their first player from the corner, in this case Jonas Olsson. If you allow them to get first on the ball and flick it, it creates massive danger. It was not like Olsson ran into the area, he was standing there all along.

On corners you also have to have defending players on the posts. These two simple actions would each of them have prevented the goal. But RM can't set up the team defensively, that's his biggest flaw.

Secondly, the substitutions. Many were critical over him taking Lennon off, but I don't think that was a wrong call. I thought Lennon looked kind of tired around the hour-mark. However, we were crying out for creativity and pace, and he puts on the two slowest players in the entire squad, Kone and Osman.

I would have put on Mirallas for Cleverley, Deulofeu for Lennon, and Baines for Oviedo. Oviedo was okay, but he don't have the attacking quality that Baines has. I mean Baines has a killer left foot and his tally of assists through the years is a testament of that.

Those simple things would have won us the game, and that Martinez can't see such things is not good enough. I've been patient with him and stood by him, but now I feel he just isn't good enough. I was feeling that already after the Swansea loss, but those three 3-0 wins on the trot made me feeling hopeful again, and I thought, with the confidence back in the team, we could go on to challenge for the European spots. However, with this debacle, he has lost me again... Martinez out!

It's like saying no to that stunning hot date for Valentine's weekend and going out with Cilla Black instead...

With five more Premier League encounters to be played at Goodison Park this season, even if the team scored maximum points from those games against Arsenal, Bournemouth, Norwich, Southampton and West Ham we would surpass the heady heights of last season's home tally by a whole 3 points.

Everton have already lost one more league game at Goodison than during the whole of last season. Everton haven't lost six league games at home, since 2012 and that season saw ten victories for Everton at Goodison.

We will be lucky to see our beloved Blues equal last season's number of home victories as that means we would have to win 3 of our last 5 home games.

One of the most astounding stats I read earlier today was in the last 11 games at Goodison when Everton have trailed (by any score) at half-time our record is W0 D1 L10 that is not the sign of a team going places unless you feel the need to visit the likes of Leeds, Sheffield Wed et al on a more regular basis, time to pack your bags Bobby, if not now, then after Norwich at home regardless of our fate in the FA Cup.

My RM meter swung back to "no hope" today. I'd congratulate WBA for the win but their time wasting and fouling is a disgrace to the game.

Just when you start to think the penny has dropped with Martinez... oh no, hang on!

Put in "this guy is a bigger pillock than Billy Bingham" and you get "su nombre es Roberto Martinez".

Even if we were to win the FA Cup (ha!) this is the Eternal Truth.

I'm also disgusted at his comments on how Evertonians should have more respect for Howard. And you are Roberto???? Who the hell are you to comment on Everton supporters??? You're a no-one, mate, who got a team relegated and should never be in charge of a mega club like ours.

How anyone an stand to listen to what you say or to even be in 5 yards of you is a mystery. I hate Roberto with a passion... Kone & Ossie??? Are you crazy???

Get out of my club now and stay out. One things for sure, no-one else will employ you, just like that other clown the Redshite fell for!

Get out!!!

Those substitutions were the worst he has ever made, and he's made some unbelievable subs. How can you take your best player off and stick with like-for-like? Martinez just has no idea, and he just doesn't have a Plan B.

The fact that we continue to run out of ideas when a side "parks the bus" shows that Martinez struggles with the tactical side of the game.

Lukaku made the mistake of talking about his all-round improvement and was made to look fairly useless by the Baggies' defence.

Roberto made strange substitutions. Removing Lennon was a mistake as he still looked fresh and was roasting everyone down his wing. Surely putting on another winger (whether it was Deulofeu or Mirallas) and keeping Lennon on, would have enabled us to stretch their defence and get in behind them.

Kone tried hard and atoned for some of his poor touches with some aggressive play, but he was plainly the wrong man to bring on. Ossie could well have opened things up with a trademark precision pass, so I could understand the thinking.

Having said all of this, I must add that we did manage to open them up only to blaze the chances wide or (in Barkley's case) on to the post, so we did have the nous to do it, just not the finishing.

Once more though, a poor team (like Swansea) have poked in a soft goal and we have struggled to come to terms with it. Lukaku seems lost in these situations and his game seems suited to playing on the break, with lots of space to work with. He lacks a striking partner to get in close to him to provide a foil for his layoffs Mirallas could have been that man, as could the departed Naismith, but no-one seemed to get near to him apart from the bulky centre-halves.

We flatter to deceive yet again.

He throws out a shots stat, but how many saves did their keeper make? Most of those shots were hopeless efforts that were blocked because we were passing it slowly, dribbling sideways from the wing into the center and running out of ideas/options. So Barkley would have a shot with 3 players directly in front of him that was inevitably blocked.

Lukaku received no service, with no through balls attempted to be played. He was making runs, pinning his man, but the ball never came. So he started coming deeper and wider for the ball, which removed our one striker from the 18 yard box. Meanwhile Barry and McCarthy stood around the middle of the pitch with no forward runs being made.

It's pathetic, absolutely pathetic. We've seen it time and time again with the same garbage spouted by the manager afterward, throwing out possession stats and shots and how they scored from their one good chance. Roberto, that's exactly what their game plan was. They allowed us to pass the ball around in harmless areas. They wanted us to get frustrated and attempt harmless shots from distance with 3-5 mean between the ball and goal. They wanted Lukaku to have to go 40 yards away from goal to receive the ball and pass it back out.

But you Roberto, you had no plan B to counter their game plan. Instead you did what you do every match, which is to say you did nothing. In a match that was screaming out for players who can take on their man to get in behind the defense, you made a joke of a substitution by bringing Kone on. The game was screaming for Mirallas and Deulofeu to be brought on at half time with Cleverly and one of Barry or McCarthy brought off.

If you knew WBA was going to sit back and defend, then why in the hell would you start the match with two defensive midfielders, and persist with that formation for over 80 minutes. And when you finally take one of them off, you bring on the slow Osman, leaving Mirallas on the bench.

This is a joke, a sick joke.

Everton under Martinez will always have some good performances and victories but Everton will never be consistent winners under Martinez because he never laid the foundations on how he wanted his team to be consistent competitors and winners.

In fact, the foundations were already laid by the previous manager and yet Martinez decided to destroy those. If a foreman builds a house without foundations, he will be sacked and never get another job. So why is Martinez still the manager of Everton?

Tactics just stayed the same all through the game. Just shows how limited he is. It was the same last season.

I'm sooooo angry! Especially this season. If we had a little more about us, WE could be Leicester!

Now, the first game fair do's! Game 2? Really should be learning from the first game! Game 3?? Absolutely pathetic tactics! After the first two games you fucking KNOW what's going to happen in the third game!!!

Change your fucking tactics you Nobhead!!

That stat about failing to tott up a single win when trailing at half-time is scary stuff. Although not so surprising. I already knew our record in that respect was bad but didn't really want to know how bad.

Does make you wonder what goes on in that dressing room at half-time though, as whatever words are said sure as shit don't seem to have any galvanising effect.

I'd take that and a little of the consistency that he had with his FA Cup winning team for whatever path lay ahead in that competition, seeing as we are pretty much safe from a relegation battle and are not going to be able to challenge for The Europa League.

West Brom went to penalties in midweek and we still couldn't beat them! You couldn't make it up!!

What has happened to Lukaku????

Thank god for George...

The sooner the takeover gets sorted and this clown gets the sack the better.

Why does McCarthy not have to play cameos to gain match fitness like everyone else coming back from injury? Why has his game never progressed from running around for 90 minutes while only ever playing backwards or sideways under the tutelage of Martinez?

Does Kone have to be involved in every game to justify his new contract?

Why do we never have two wide players who are actually wide players playing at the same time so we are not so unbalanced?

Why did we play 2 holding midfielders AGAIN against a team who had no interest in attacking except from set pieces?

Martinez loves to make excuses, he has certainly had enough practice during his abysmal managerial career, yet he is still the manager overseeing a catastrophic return of points with, in his own words the "strongest Everton squad he has had, England's football diamond, Europe's best ball playing centre half, One of England's best ever midfielders and the best centre forward in European football". It is not coincidence, bad luck or any other bullshit excuse, the rot set in a LONG, LONG time ago and yet here we are on the end of another déjà vu result and performance. Do the honourable and dignified thing, Roberto and practice what you preach in "sin miedo" – print off a letter of resignation and sign the bottom... and don't forget to take the rest of your staff of losers with you.

The only hope is that this takeover goes through and the new owners have enough about them to realise Martinez is out of his depth. If the current board stay in place, then we're stuck with the clown for a good few years yet.

How does he have the nerve to come out after a carbon copy of most Goodison games and say "I don't know how we lost"? If you've no idea of the problem, how the hell are you ever going to fix it?

Sterile crab like possession that was far too slow and predictable. The subs RM made have to be the worst I have ever seen watching us. Took off the best player in Lennon and Kone on the left completely killed any threat we had down that side. Piss poor.

Not good enough for our club and totally out of his depth. Time must be running out for him..

I have accused others of looking at players and knowing all about their attitude but the stats seem to suggest that Martinez is as woefully insipid and uninspiring as he looks. He looks – just my view – like the players mate. A bit like Sven at England. Everyone knew it was shite but it suited everyone to pretend it wasn't.

I don't much care for Joey Barton but I suspect if he was at Everton the pretence would have been over some time ago. We are weak and feeble to often and it is a reflection of the coach. Phil Walling described us as being like Ron Greenwood's West Ham. I agree but we lack anyone with the steel of, err, Trevor Brooking?

I heard such voices on the radio this evening (Radio Merseyside actually with some patsy in the chair), condescending dimwits telling us that Jesus wants us for a sunbeam and that Roberto is an unlucky genius only let down by his faithless fans.

Fuck off, Bobby, there's a good lad. And take that particular numbskull, Jones, with you on the way out.

In the last 33 Premier League encounters on home soil, Everton have won 11 drawn 11 and lost 11 scoring 51 times and conceding on 44 occasions, gaining 44 points from a possible 99 points.

In Roberto's first season he managed 13 victories, two more than his tally for the last two seasons , and his team took 42 points from his first 19 Premier League home games losing just three times on home soil, scoring 38 and conceding 19.

If we are really getting closer to becoming a team that can challenge at the very highest levels where is the evidence?

I agree that Lukaku is the best striker we've had at the club for decades, his goalscoring record proves it, but it doesn't or hasn't as yet created a feeling that we have solved our long-standing problem of being only a player or two away from competing at the top end of the table, and how many really good teams rely on just one source to score the necessary goals?

Barry has been one of our players of the season, Barkley isn't far behind, Del Boy and Lennon on recent form at least, are decent players, and the defence that played today is more or less our best available, yet he we are reflecting on another morale sapping defeat.

Some of the reasons for stumbling in games like today are the constant use of players such as Osman who has been good but shouldn't be anywhere near the team, and Kone who has never been particularly good at Goodison and is unlikely to be anytime soon.

Everton may have dominated the ball today, but they never dominated the game and West Brom for the most part kept us at arm's length and looking less likely to equalise with each passing minute of the game.

At the moment Everton seem to be suffering from an identity crisis, are they the free-running, adventurous team that everybody outside the confines of Goodison believe them to be or are they the hard-working, no-nonsense team that we saw at Stoke?

I wouldn't mind hearing a few more opposition managers decrying the way we play and criticising our style as that would likely mean we are winning more matches at home, listening to the likes of Pulis et al purring over how good we are as he heads back home with 3 points is galling and the Everton manager and players shouldn't be taking any notice of him or anyone else who leaves Goodison Park happy at Everton's expense.

We can't win every game we play at home, but those recent figures at Goodison are not the statistics of a team that's going to be challenging for Champions League places any time soon. If this season peters out in a similar way to last season, I think that Roberto should be replaced because going to a home game should be enjoyable and at the moment it just isn't for many many reasons.

Why do we forever ignore such an obvious tactic when faced with a corner? We shouldn't even have to think about it.

As for the substitutions....

Why when we have the ball do the rest of the team play statues? No movement to make room for a pass?

At home with one striker who I wish he would perform as well as he talks.

Taking off the best player to put the worst on and as all are saying why no Pan B and C?

But Roberto Martinez will go home happy with 74% possession and how unlucky (again) we are; if we carry on, we will be the unluckiest team in the Championship.

Solution!!?? Get in a manager who can motivate the panel of players we have. Get rid of the deadwood at the end of the season.

We forever hope for more and Martinez consistently fails to deliver. I have no doubt that the debate on his managerial ability and these sort of mixed but mainly maddeningly frustrating performances will continue until he's eventually sacked.

I just want to make a few points about today's game. Driving home from the game, I heard a guy on the radio talking about the Goodison faithful being more than ready to blame the manager (wrongly on his view) for our reoccurring cock-ups yet always failing to point the finger at the players.

I want to say why I lay the blame completely at the feet of the manager and not the players. Today, the players performed well but they clearly implemented a strategy that they had been given by their coach and that strategy didn't allow for a variation which could have assisted in a victory against a team like West Brom – and in particular a West Brom who were one-nil up.

This is essentially a really good squad, for which we have to give a degree of credit to Martinez for their assembly. We also have to acknowledge Moyes's role. But Martinez has to take full responsibility for their failure to consistently win games and in particular to win the most winnable of games.

Today, every time we attacked forwards in the centre (as we've seen so many times this season), we always play the same ball – out wide. Clearly the intention is then to swing a ball in at some stage for forwards to attack.

I could live with this happening for some of our attacks but I can't live with this being the approach on every single bloody attack. Nor can I accept this being the tactic against a team like West Brom who have big defenders and get plenty of men behind the ball.

Clearly Martinez thinks if we keep repeating this tactic, we will eventually prevail. Yet, more often than not against a team like West Brom in the past two seasons, we have consistently failed to win with this tactic. It demonstrates a complete lack of imagination from our self-styled footballing genius.

Swinging the ball outside allows sufficient time for a defensively minded team like West Brom to organise their defence. It never allows for a fast penetrative attack. We also, under Martinez, never attempt to, directly from the centre, thrust into their penalty area – presumably because it's too crowded. So we never are given the chance to earn a free kick in a decent area, a penalty, or a ricochet shot.

We can only shoot when we have a clear shot on goal – which, against a team like West Brom, is hardly ever. We are therefore always denied the fine margins that Martinez so regularly refers to. I'm never sure exactly where and in which dimension these fine margins exist. Clearly they are not something which our endeavours on the pitch are able to control!

It goes without saying that we hardly ever attack with a speed which will catch out a team like West Brom because every attack involves too many sideways passes which are easier to make but offer little in the way of real penetration against a defensive team.

Then, of course, every high ball in is easy meat for tall defenders. But without fail, we continue to to repeat this unproductive approach.

Then we need, as we have done so many times this season, to talk about set-pieces. Never have I seen such a consistent repetition of unimaginative lacklustre set-pieces. Leicester is a team which has consistently produced some very clever set-pieces and every time I see one, I wonder why the tactical genius of Martinez doesn't permit the occasional inclusion of one in an Everton game?

For me, most of the things I've complained about above are related to the tactical way we play games and not the performance of the players themselves. None of the above makes reference to the distinctly piss-poor way Martinez makes substitutions in games – either by their poor timing (more often too late), or taking off the wrong man and then compounding the felony by bringing on the wrong player.

Much has also been said about booing at the end of games. It's not something I do myself but I would never criticise those who do. But for my money most (I accept not all) of the booing from supporters this season (when not about refereeing decisions) has been about Martinez's tactics more than player performance.

New owners – could we get Pellegrini?

Martinez, your time is well and truly up. I am making the pilgrimage to Bournemouth next week and I would suggest a Walter Smith moment if he fails.

Another weekend ruined.

It happens too often to be just a blip there is a deep underlying problem that RM can't get a grip of. Then today, to cap it all, the substitutions appeared to be made by someone with no knowledge of football at all!

As most posters have said, three of the worst substitutions to have ever been made.

When playing against shit sides at Goodison we struggle, and it is clear that we need to change the system at home. Or at least change it with 30 mins to go when it's pretty bloody obvious that it's not going to get the job done. We need to scrap the two central defensive moidfielders and have two right up front.

Incredibly frustrating. We could have been hunting down 5th place and quietly wondering if 4th was still at all possible. Instead, we lost at home to utter shite.

Graham Jones may be the one dealing with the fourth official but the manager has to be the one deciding who and when.

Okay he did not get the service but did he put himself about like Rondon did? I cannot believe apart from Lennon that the ball was continually being pumped high into the area for the defence to head clear. Pity we don't have a Plan B for corners as I only remember once that Funes Mori got his head on it first.

The substitutions today just did not make any sense and, as was pointed out above, when a team comes and parks the bus, why do you need two defensive midfield players???

I cannot believe we lost today to a really really poor side.

Pulis set his team up to not concede and try and grab a goal from a set piece.

Your insistence on playing with 2 Defensive Mids every home game kills us. Against weaker teams like WBA, who will play deeper than the likes of Arsenal, means we're not going to be under the cosh too much in open play, so set your team up to play to that advantage.

I personally feel Ross is wasted as a No 10 in these types of games. I believe he's better playing deeper and sacrificing Barry or McCarthy (on current form the latter) and playing another Striker (Mirallas, Niasse when he's ready, or even Koné seeing as he's a striker and not a left winger) up front with Lukaku instead of leaving him completely isolated like he was yesterday.

Your biggest fault though is substitutions; you never, ever leave your stringent 4-5-1 even if its not working and our opponents have sussed us out. Changing the players but keeping the same formation plays in to the oppositions hands as it gives them nothing new to think about.

As I said, Bobby, it's not Rocket Science but will you change? Will you fuck. Quicker you're gone, the better!

I was watching what was going on with the subs. 2nd half, three come out to warm up. Mirallas, Kone and Osman. No sign of Deulofeu. Kone and Osman are never the answer. Only after the Gwladys Street started singing his name did Martinez turn to the bench to order Del to warm up. He stood and watched us pass sideways and backwards with game changers like Mirallas and Del on the bench.

As usual, too little, too late. Replacing Cleverley (who was having a good game) with Kone was a piss-take. Hauling Lennon off when Del finally came on was unforgivable. He's an idiot, hasn't got a clue.

Why does this dunderhead keep sending Kone on to the pitch? He has to be one of the worst players ever to wear the #9 shirt at Everton and I've been watching us for 57 years. As soon as he comes on, it's like we're down to ten men. Slow, ponderous, useless in front of goal... 'nuff said.

Again, the substitutions... crying out for speed and creativity – we got the aforementioned Kone and Osman. I have respect for Leon but there is a time and a place where he can offer something; this wasn't it.

To leave Mirallas on the bench was nothing short of criminal. If there's something personal between RM and Kev, then the manager has to be professional and leave his personal differences at home and do his job as he's paid to do. If that means putting his personal feelings towards Mirallas aside, do it, Martinez. You earn more in one year than most fans will earn in a lifetime and yet you offer us nothing but mid-table mediocrity.

Any other club would have sacked this tactically inept one-dimensional charlatan by now yet he is allowed to go on driving us further into the depths of said mediocrity with not a word from above. Apparently he earns virtually the same as Manuel Pelligrini, soon to be available it seems. Get rid of the clown before it's too late and our best players all request transfers.

Whether Pelligrini or any other top manager would come to us is debatable, as we may have some good players but Martinez may have done irreparable damage to the morale and tactical sense of many of them. I think everyone who loves our great club would breathe a huge sigh of relief if they picked their Sunday paper up tomorrow and saw Martinez Out across the top of the back page.

Niasse, we were told, would be involved today. What happened there Roberto? More lies to keep us happy during the week? Every other club who made signings in January has used them so why not us?

I've truly had it with Martinez,and his 'Book of a thousand and one excuses'. Just go Martinez, go now, please!

Our Roberto was at a loss to explain this latest in a long list of defeats in games in which we had overwhelming possession.

I offer him these few hints on where we went wrong.

1. Our main striker was too early in taking a position in the box. This blocked avenues to goal for team mates.

2. Playing two defensive mids in a home game against a struggling side.

3. Poor substitutions. Anyone other than Kone and Osman would have been better.

4. Dreadful Corner and Free kicks begs the question what in hell do you practice at Finch Farm.

5. Lack of concentration that resulted in WBA's goal.

Finally Roberto you should own up to the fact that once again you were out outmanoeuvred by a wiser manager. You could seek advice from your expert panel on the bench or don't you trust them.

I don't get why we persist with throwing high balls into the box when Funes Mori is the only player that can attack the ball convincingly. I'd rather we took short corners and played to our advantage, and not run the risk of hitting the first man. I know people aren't happy with Roberto, but will he really get sacked anytime soon?

As for done enough to win, how exactly is that? Their keeper didn't have to do anything. All our possession was useless and in harmless areas. All our shots were blocked because we created nothing. We did nothing to win. We couldn't even trouble their keeper.

This is not an isolated incident. It in fact is the trend for going on two years now. Lukaku is the only damn reason we're not in a relegation fight this season.

It was Geri who came on for Lennon. I thought a good sub then too with Lennon looking tired. Unfortunately Geri's usual crossing accuracy wasn't there.

Kone for Cleverley was the blunder.

Fans on here and on Merseyside choose to pick out individual players such as Rom or Ross for our defeat, instead of facing up to the fact that we are forever starting teams that are wrong from the get go.

We have two defensive midfielders for starters, at home to West Brom, can nobody see the problem there.

We have one striker, we have one winger, again at home to West Brom.

Yes, we have won our last few games, never the less, we have struggled for 18 months, do we just forget that.

I can't even be bothered to dissect the sub's as no one on this planet agreed with any of them, no one needs me to explain what could or should have been done.

The fact is Roberto is out of his depth at Everton and out of his depth in the prem.

I've had a season ticket for 25 years and seen some piss poor games, results and players, and I was willing to accept it.

What I can not accept is to see this manager break up a top squad, because he is not anywhere near good enough at his job.

Wtf must Mirallas think when he can get on, at home, behind to West Brom, with no Niasse on the bench and Naisy gone?

Why is he still at us?

He must be either happy to take a wage or a complete barm pot, who is allowing Martinez to ruin him.

Please please please Everton, bin Roberto now, enough is enough.

Wow.

Lennon off in anyone's book was suicide.

He was the most lively player on the park and should have remained on the pitch.

Osman should never of entered the field of play. They had big strong men everywhere and our only way through was with Lennon's pace, Mirallas or/and Deulofeu should have been brought on to save the game.

Lennon could have went to right back as West Brom offered no attack for him to defend, or left to run at there other full back and link with Oviedo.

Cleverley should have been given a chance centrally, especially as Martinez has spent all last week singing his praises.

McCarthy needed taking off earlier, Cleverley central to pass forward and Osman left on bench to ready the drinks.

Kone was signed by Martinez even though he had seen him close up for a full season the year before as his manager.

Simply put awful signing.

There's the problem. By most measures individuals are playing well, and the team is racking up the stats.

But the game is about goals. When we have bucket loads of possession we simply don't score enough. At the same time we look vulnerable at the back when the opposition counter attacks.

So what do we do? We stroll forward with the ball and have more pointless possession. More stats, and some of it even looks good.

There's no point doing that against West Brom. They're a well drilled Pulis team who are going to hold their positions and back themselves to deal with set pieces.

Try something else. Anything else. Draw them out. Play more direct. Anything is better than the inevitable, surely?

But today, we got beat by a freak goal (three clean sheets in the last four games explains this), but it was a game any other manager would be in a position to write-off. Any other day, we would have put a few goals past whoever the opposition was.

Get Niasse in, use Kone less, and let's kick on for a real UNIQUE end to the season. We've still won three in four. Roberto WON'T be sacked. Let's kick on till the end of the season.

Granted their goal was an odd one, but we shouldn't be reliant on teams not getting a small amount of luck.

Absolutely fucking 'incredible'.

Stop rewriting the actual game. The goal was actually rather routine. Ball into the first player who tries to flick it on towards goal and does so. Ball goes to back post, no-one is there. Goal.

Are you saying it was a freak goal to excuse the culpability of those involved? It's all right, go ahead and blame Howard for it. You can be damn sure if he were in there and did what Robles did, he would be being skewered for it, despite the fact that that goal might not have been saveable.

Face it, Everton still have a long way to go to correct basic defending errors. That is on the manager first and the players second, to do what is needed. I am not sure RM knows how to do that and is too stubborn to bring in anyone to help. Fix that and you will have your answer, Roberto.

We know Kone is not a Premier League standard footballer – hell EVERYONE knows he's not – so how come you don't??? That is INCOMPETENCE and that is a sacking offense at a NORMAL club.

But we know you won't be sacked so please resign and put us out of our misery and go away before you turn us in to Wigan for real and get us relegated.

We lost today because... ??? 34 shots, a couple of posts and couple blocked on the line a few deflections inches wide. Strange game. Martinez has lost the crowd again like he did last year but its a culmination of having the worst home record that I can remember and some bizarre game management.

We have the Cup game next weekend to take our minds away from the league... probably just at the right time.

Were we unlucky to concede it? Were we fuck... we should have had a man on the back post, but to blame the goalkeeper is just plain stupid, it's like blaming Howard for Shaqiri's goal against Stoke. The most difficult save for a goalkeeper to make is a hit and hope. No goalkeeper in the world would have saved that goal yesterday.

I believe the person who is popping up on this and other threads, trying to accuse others of "rewriting the game" is trying desperately hard to make a case against Robles by making up a list of perceived "mistakes". It won't wash. Evertonians are not so easily fooled.

Robles may be well below the required standard, but because he has been denied any chance of getting a run, we don't yet know that. What we do know is that the overwhelming majority would prefer to take a chance because the alternative is a complete and utter disaster.

Fair play to Olsson, he got across his man and deserved his luck, but if you gave him a thousand more chances to repeat that header and generate that sort of top spin, putting it in that place... na!

I repeat, NO goalkeeper could have saved that, regardless of the claims made by people who seem to base all their opinions on inaccurate and irrelevant stats dreamed up by a TV channel still trying to get to grips with the game.

Pulis did what everyone who takes the slightest interest in the game knew he would do. He put up his 5&4 banks and challenged us to break them down. We couldn't.

It's staggering that Pulis can still make a living with his primitive game plan... but, then again, it's equally staggering that clubs like Everton employ managers who are unable to overcome it.

And which Evertonians in their hearts really expected us to come back from it? I certainly didn't. But what finally did it for me was bringing on Kone to play off the left. It was the turning point in the League Cup semi-final and did for us there as well. I personally have slaughtered Kone on here, but if he was to come on at all it should have been to replace Rom.

A squad this good cannot be wasted on such a tactically limited manager, so he has to go at the end of the season.

Yes, the Kone substitution was bewildering but sadly predictable. A couple of things, other than poor substitutions, that jumped out at me:

1. We had something like 34 shots. Barkley hit a post (unlucky), Cleverley hit the woodwork with a cross, but other than tipping Lennon's deflected shot over the bar, I can't remember Foster being forced into a save!

2. It was obvious after 20 mins we were no match for WBA in the air yet we continued to put all corners and way too many crosses into the box. We were most dangerous when Lennon got to the byline and pulled the ball back... but he was subbed!

I will probably get slaughtered for this but I didn't really have an issue with the first sub of Deulofeu for Lennon, as I happen to think that Lennon's end product is poor; with the exception of the past few games vs poor opposition, it still is, and was today. So, like I say, no problem with that sub.

It's the Kone and Osman subs that show our manager's ineptitude. Kone is a centre forward, and if you are going to bring him on with Lukaku then that's fine; but, when we bring him on left side, it's absolutely criminal when you have Mirallas on the bench who can give width. The Osman sub is even more mystifying given that he has no legs whatsoever and again, like Kone, narrows the play.

Ross Barkley also showed in this game his lack of football intelligence by trying to thread the ball through the eye of the needle through the middle of the pitch were West Brom had about 8 players instead of constantly dumping it wide like he should have done. Absolutely brain-dead, Barkley is at times... But, then again, he is being coached by Martinez.

In terms of buying players and assembling a squad, I think Martinez has done OK, but as far as coaching them the basics, being flexible, and also being able to change a game with subs, he is the worst manager I have ever seen at Everton, and I include Smith and also Walker in that.

This year the door has been open to do something special. Spurs and Leicester in particular have seized that opportunity. We have floundered and choked. Not sure I will ever be able to forgive Martinez for that. His interviews compound rather than alleviate my frustration.

If we do get new owners, I'm sure they will quickly replace him, but finding a successful manager is the hardest part of any winning formula... best of luck guys!

Why is it that whichever end it is, the first man is never wearing the Chang shirt. We have had our share of lucky or 'flukey' goals but at the end of the day, that goal should have been about as relevant as Newcastle's yesterday. We should've blitzed them.

Our finishing is toothless. We should at least have troubled their keeper. Problems exist at both ends I think. Out of our last 6 league goals (I am not including fucking League One Barnsley against whom 3 is the least to expect) I would only put maybe two down as good finishing and not gifted to us.

I used to travel to Liverpool from Exeter most home games... but now (and since Xmas) I'm not putting another penny in the club until he has gone and we have sold every crap player from Wigan.

He was the easy option when Moyes left as it was cheap. Him and his Wigan muppets have turned us into a Punch and Judy show.

Pulis must have been laughing his head off all the way home.

I know he hadn't played since early December, but he's not injured so should be able to be match-fit in a short space of time, I would have thought.

Most other teams make an investment like that and they're playing the player first game possible. It's now nearly 3 weeks since he arrived, let's hope he's not injured!

RM must have known that Pulis knew exactly what to do, he fucking must've because every blue in the ground did. For me, though, Pulis left his best move for the end, his post match chat. I mean he really took the total fucking piss telling the media that this blues team is a top 4 outfit. But guess what? You can take West Brom to Goodison, do absolutely fuck-all with the ball, get a cheap goal, and just sit there and defend. Of course Pulis is right, I mean every other team comes to Goodison and it's like "day jar view", it's a given that all top 4 sides have trouble breaking down the likes of West Brom.

One of the most baffling substitutions I've ever seen.

No one would have blamed Howard if we had lost that goal and he had been in, despite Mr H trying to claim differently.

We lost that goal because no one was on the post. That is 100% down to bobby and how he chooses to defend.

Bad luck contributed to us losing the game but poor finishing and atrocious substitutions also contributed.

...of course you're right. Too much going on in my brain. I think RM fkd that up as well!

The whole team has defensive discipline from top to bottom, its been drilled into them, rewards for clean sheets etc.

Contrast that with us the 4th worse home record in Europe.

We simply cant defend, Martinez doesn't know how to coach it either.

The bed rock of any successful team is being hard to beat.

I'm hoping these prospective buyers have already drawn up a short list of managers to takeover in the summer.

I'm staging a protest at the next home game and going for a prolonged shit on 77 mins and every home game until this clown is sacked. Who's with me? Although I don't know how many I'd be able to accommodate in my one cubicle. Some of you may need to find somewhere else to hang out.

Second half we ran out of ideas. I can see why he brought Kone on, but couldn't see why he turned up on the left wing. He was also very poor. Lennon looked tired, so I could see why he was taken off. I would have given Mirallas a go, I had a hunch Geri would get kicked out of the game and he was, fading before he got going. I could see why he brought Osman on, for those quick passes that often unlock a defence.

It just didn't happen for us yesterday. In isolation, you'd say it was one of those days. In reality, it's the umpteenth time we've played well, created chances and not won.

This team is less than the sum of its parts and has long lost the winning mentality it had two seasons ago. I find it hard to accept the 'almost there' argument when we were pulling wins out of nothing back then, but can't do it now.

Someone on this, or another thread, made the excellent point that maybe Roberto will be the man who laid foundations for a more successful replacement.

Big game for us all next Saturday. He owes us one and I'm sure the prospective owners will be watching....

Going 1-0 down to a spawny goal, Pulis then parked the bus, and here's the thing - we've done it in games and Evertonians have been delighted with a whole-hearted defensive display when it comes off, but when another team does it to us, we all lose it. Fair play to West Brom in that respect.

I also think we were quite wasteful at times, a lot of shots missing the target, but we did have 34 shots and failed to score which is testament to WBA's commitment to the cause, as much as it is our failure to score a goal. It happens - blaming the manager for the defeat seems like habit to me, more than looking at the facts and the way the game panned out - would Mirallas have scored or changed the game? Maybe. Did Kone himself being on the field mean we lost the game? No.

Pretty much the perfect post in my opinion. The only thing I would add to the sentiments on here is that every single thing about the Martinez style of play is far far too slow and too static. Every single time someone actually does shape to shoot it is after a touch to steady and the opportunity is gone. Split seconds like this make critical differences in the PL. The reason we never trouble opposing goalkeepers is because we are so slow and static in the build up that every team can enact their defensive plan to stop us. What Kone does do (and sometimes this could be useful) is slow the game down even further. We never, ever, ever play fast one twos or the little triangles which is the basis of penetration football, it always, always, always goes out to the wing. That is not how you play Lukaku, whatever people think of his abilities. When he runs at defences he is often unstoppable and we score goals on the counter with him more often than not. Breaking down a packed defence with Lukaku isolated and with back to goal is never going to work, he isn't that type of player. Yet again Martinez tactics make good players look bad.

Oh and, I don't know why people make such basic errors on here and then build cases around them - viz, on the substitutions, I only watched once at the game itself but my recollection in real time was:

Kone on for Lennon - which is why we (including me) were booing and at Martinez and his clowns, nothing to do with the players. Just utterly insane and inept game management;
Deulofeu on for Cleverley (who I thought was having a decent game - an intelligent footballer);
Osman on for McCarthy - the only one that actually made sense to me. McCarthy is a very limited footballer and certainly was not suited to that game where the opposition did not actually want to attack.

Out of thirty odd thousand people in the stadium yesterday, and given almost total consensus in the posts here, seemingly the only ones who found the defeat "hard to understand", were the only ones who could change things, namely Martinez and his inept yes men staff. Everyone else comprehended things perfectly well. How on earth can people still defend the idiot?

Martinez Out!!!!

PS Jim Harding - yes, a gopher burrow in Goodison Park would have been a VERY freak occurrence

The reason people are blaming RM for the results is because he buys the players picks the team and selects when and who to substitute. So as the saying goes the buck stops with the manager, yes some blame can be attached to the players but ultimtely RM has to take the blame. I mean 4 home wins all season and apart from the Newcastle win no home wins since November. I don't know if you are a match going fan but the fans who sit by me have had enough, in fact I don't hear many defending him.

"The reason we never trouble opposing goalkeepers is because we are so slow and static in the build up that every team can enact their defensive plan to stop us"

Errr, where do you get this stuff from? Fantasyland? Only Leicester and Man City have scored more goals than us this season, both with 47 to our 46.

Sorry but lines like that are pure nonsense.

I've been out of the UK for about a year and only just got back, so no, not been at Goodison for a while.

What I will say is that there seems a slightly different perception of what the fan going to the game thinks as to the guy who didnt get to the game. I think this is because any TV coverage can only show players on the ball and not players out of picture.
To be honest I hate watching us on television, for some reason the TV directors want to show pictures of a player who had a shot 20 seconds previous and the game is still going on. I think the most notable time of this happening was we played Liverpool and Everton had scored, and they were that busy showing the goal again when they switched back to the game it was just in time to see Rush running away after scoring.

No-one here is blaming West Brom for parking the bus, we all expected that and fair play to them as you say. Everton under Moyes were often criticised for this (usually by the Sky darlings or their media flunked). It is a perfectly good "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" tactic.

The issue is that Martinez keeps repeating the same inept failing tactics.

On Radio Merseyside yesterday on the way home someone was saying that it was difficult to play against the packed banks of 5&4 as there was very little space.

The only problem with that logic is that given WBA's record this season not many other teams have actually struggled to beat them or score against them. Those other teams did not have the luxury of them being taken to extra time and penalties 72 hrs earlier either.

Peterborough (twice, three goals), Newcastle, Swansea and Bristol City (two goals) have all managed to score goals against the impregnable Pulis defence this year but the ridiculously over rated (by some on here - I could reel their names off the top of my head, there aren't that any of them) Martinez attack could not.

That's not bad luck, that's total ineptitude.

They played very well defensively.

I'm off to watch Leicester hopefully beat Arsenal.

Yes of course we have scored goals. But not consistently is my point. We score goals in gluts where teams toe to toe with us, and usually score more than us because they defend better. When teams. We have one of the lowest points to goals ratios of any team.

The point I make is that when we play teams like WBA who decide to concede possession and let us attack, we virtually never work the keeper for the reasons I describe.

Yes, we might have had 30-odd attempts at goal but Foster never made one save. I'd have more respect for Martinez if he came out just once and told the truth about how we really haven't got a clue how to break teams down once they get men behind the ball.

Everyone in that ground knew when WBA scored what would happen. Yet that cretin just stands there stroking his chin waiting for a lucky break – it's laughable. He insults our intelligence bringing the likes of Kone and Osman on when Mirallas is sitting there... No wonder he had a strop – who wouldn't, hot getting on before them two?!?

I'm sick to death of hearing how weve got a great squad. We haven't – the league table doesn't lie and the home form is some sort of sick joke... I mean WBA and Swansea. Laughable.

On another thread a couple of days ago, someone posted that we are better than Leicester – do me a fucking favour! Six home defeats with probably a couple more to come – you couldn't make it up.

West Bromwich Albion proved that, with proper organisation and decent movement at a set-piece, they can go away and win at Goodison Park.

You need to leave. I can not think of anyone else who can lose to Stoke, Swansea, Leicester & WBA at home and keep a job at a massive club like Everton!

As for the the substitutions? Well I think that's been well commented on already. Bizarre!

Why continue to pump high balls into the box when they defended them well all afternoon? Surely he must have seen that we created more by running at them? His inability to change his tactics has worn thin.

I and many others on this site have repeatedly noticed an apparent lack of fitness in the entire squad for a very long time. The training regime is at the core of that and Martinez has 100% responsibility for it, but from his own mouth in effect he's admitting he's demonstrably poor at that too.

You couldn't make it up.

Disapointing yes, but not the end of the world.

Normally I don't like including Everton in my bets but, after seeing West Brom v Peterborough the other night, I couldn't tell the difference between who was the Premier League side and who wasn't. In fact, it was like looking at two Championship teams and Posh were the better team. So I decided that we would be queing up to score against WBA and this was my banker!!

given all the hype surrounding our successive three-nil wins and after listening to Martinez use all the English bullshit expressions that he learned by heart, I was seduced, or shafted once again. Arouna Kone, with his blonde bombshell hair, actually looks like a negative of a photograph! And a negative negative at that, apart from the fact that he has completely lost his way and is not worthy of the Number 9 shirt or any shirt playing for Everton. So, once again, when it was time to make a substitution, I was dumbfounded when Cleverley (a positive) was changed for Kone (a negative negative).

Sometimes I ask myself, like so many fellow Blues: What goes on in RM's head during matches? his stubborn insistence on negatives instead of positives! Even Wigan would not accept this lot back!! Let's get positive!!!

So if it is the players' fault (presumably for not executing the genius' unfailing masterclass since you imply that there was nothing wrong with that) then - again presumably - this was the case with all the other failures this season. Yesterday, I will remind you, was not a one off. It is a pattern that is consistently being repeated.

Surely then *that* is the manager's responsibility to address that by changing the players if they are at fault? And does the fact that he has not addressed that issue by changing - following your logic - mean that he has failed then? Or is he blameless in that too?

Since you like the simple explanation (I do too by the way, it's usually the right one) is it possible that the simplest explanation, the one you constantly deny, is the correct one?

The one I refer to, based on a very very consistent league performance over several years and at different clubs, is that Roberto Martinez is a manager who falls far far short of the the ability required to be successful in the Premier League.

I am actually saddened for the Villa. They are a good old school and ok club.

Most worrying is this could be us in a couple of years if we do not get our act together. Only about 4 or 5 yrs(?) ago we were vying with Villa for European slots. Sad and worrying indeed.

Roll on the takeover. The devils we don't know cannot possibly be worse than the ones we do.

Planet real world we call it. A lot more objective and based in reality than planet Martinez (cloud cuckoo land).

Yesterday was unlucky sure Raymond, I mean no one without Aguero could possibly hope to break down Wba's world class defence could they. I particularly liked bringing on our slowest players in osman and Kone to pick their lock. Mirallas terrified Chelsea's back line but would have been useless against West Broms class. Martinez really is a master tactician if only we can tie him down to a new contact we might even make the top half next year.

Whose to blame? Players or the manager. You know what, who gives a fuck, it's be going on for so long it's becoming laughable.

Every manager of every team that comes to Goodison raves on about how good Everton are, then they go about giving us a lesson in how to win a game of football. No team has any fear when they come to our place, not one of them, from the top EPL teams to the totally shite teams at the bottom. They all know that we will pass the ball to death, that we are utter shite at corners and that our players will not hound them to get the ball back.

I'm absolutely pig sick at seeing Everton being turned over by shite teams like West Brom. RM can say what he wants but Pulis turns up, with whatever team he's managing and shows Martinez how to go about winning a game. For me RM can't continuously say that we are unlucky or "not in the right moment" when teams continue coming to Goodison and walking away with 3 points. At the end of day all the shit and I mean every single bit of shite, has got to land at the feet of Roberto Martinez.

It's even harder to explain when you consider that after 4 seasons of nearly getting Wigan relegated and then actually succeeding in doing it you managed to get a job at a top 6/7 side. You had a one-off first season off the back of what was one place from the previous regime, we'll call it a blip on your record, and then continued with your totally inept tactics and footballing philosophy that includes lack of player fitness, no closing down, no pressing, no practice of set-pieces, no defensive unit capabilities and an arrogance that is based on not caring about winning a game of football as long as the team plays the way YOU, and only YOU, think the game should be played.

You are a disgrace and totally and utterly out of your depth, but the real disgrace is a board so weak they appointed you in the first place, a board so weak they didn't sack you the very second last season finished and then quite astonishingly has for all of this season allowed you to continue dragging this excellent club and squad down!!!

Just high hopes and low expectations will keep me from feeling like I did last night.

I've had enough of this buffoon... get out of our club.

Chelsea, Crystal Palace and West Brom are all breathing down our necks for that coveted 11th spot!

Martinez has no tactical nous, it seems to me that he just picks a team and just tells them to go out and play, well that's okay in a kickabout but here's the problem: there's an opposition manager trying to stop you doing that.

Martinez plays the same system whether it's Norwich at home or Arsenal away. I mean what the fuck, we've had two holding midfielders every single game I've seen, and don't give me that bollocks it frees up the fullbacks to bomb on. I want my fullbacks to defend first and my centre midfielders to control the game.

The man is a charlatan and we need to let the board know we're not going to put up with him anymore. Someone arrange a mass walkout at the next home game. I'm definitely up for that, we don't have to put up with this knob anymore.

In footballing matters the buck always stops with the guy at the top, and that's Martinez. Not good enough

get it down the wings and across;
thread it through the middle into the box;
not playing the ball fast enough; we need pace;
we need guile, somebody to come on, slow it down and and pick the killer pass;
we need to draw them out, to create space in the box;
we need to bring Mirallas on, down the wing;
we need more height alongside Rom - get Funes in there;
we shouldn't have been playing high balls into the box;
Lukaku not getting the service;
Lukaku needs to get on the end of the good balls into those box;
our main striker was too quick to take his position in the box;
we don't have the good enough players;
we have the players but Roberto has ruined them;
Osman shouldn't have replaced Lennon;
Osman didn't replace Lennon;
Lennon could have gone to right back;
etc etc etc - I could go on.

And that's before we consider the ref, lady luck, the conceded goal, who's not on the bench, Other Operating Costs, etc. Of course, the problems listed above aren't all mutually exclusive, but many of them are; so the point is, the problem is "obvious" to whoever's posting but not to everybody.

It's not hard to explain, Roberto; it's "obvious".

"We've got a good squad in numbers, and Aaron performed really, really well, and just to have a bit of fresh legs when you see a player who is defending for 90 minutes, like the left-back was, and obviously he was booked when you've got a fresh pair of legs," Martinez explained.

"Deulofeu is someone that in one-on-one situations can create something out of nothing, so it's making sure you use your substitutions and the quality we've got in the squad.

"It wasn't anything about the performance of Aaron Lennon, I think he was outstanding for the time he was on the pitch."

Quality?? Arouna Kone??

Interesting stuff from Chris Beesley in the Echo. Comparing Pulis' Premier League record with that of Roberto he writes:
This equates at Martinez: won 31%, drawn 29% and lost 40% with an average of 1.22 points per game; Pulis: won 32%, drawn 29% and lost 39% with an average of 1.25 points per game.

Different philosophies, similar outcomes, both not fit to manage a club with European ambitions?

What I said in my prior post was Howard would have been blamed and has been before. Example: Chelsea's offside goal. Second example: the Stoke game, Shaqiri's lob/shot. It appears to be a bit of a double standard on here but I am sure I am just imagining it, right?

That said, I am glad that the focus is not on the keeper but rather on the defense. The negative posters must now be accepting the fact that it is not the keeper that is leaking goals. It is the defense or lack of organization and basic understanding of defending. The goal scored was a result of execution on one team's part and the failure to execute by another. This lack of understanding is attributable to the manager.

I despair.

How about managers that take established Top 6/7/8 sides and then MAKE them mid-table sides (or worse, I don't think he is finished yet)? Do they get sacked? I would contend that they do, although granted the takeover timing complicates matters.

In terms of bringing his previous record with other sides into the equation, I would also contend that that is entirely relevant when he demonstrates absolutely consistent results and behaviours even with much better players than he had previously.

Your faux, affected despair at the opinions of other posters on here is absolutely insignificant in comparison to the despair I and tens of thousands of others feel having paid for the privilege of sitting through the absolute dross provided by our so called manager, a serial failure in the Premier League.

Brent 144

Good post and agreed some of those posts are contradictory.

I'd have taken any or all of them rather than persisting with the failed tactics that were on offer yesterday. Couldn't have been any worse

You and Bill are now both using his previous record at another club as grounds for his dismissal - that will never happen. That's what my 'faux despair' relates to.

If you want us to go back to being an established 6/7/8 side playing the dullest football seen for years, then great, knock yourself out. Personally I can actually see what Martinez is trying to achieve, despite it not always working.

I too see his failings, his subs yesterday for example - but had we won yesterday, we'd have been 8th, 2 points behind 6th.

Small margins. As someone from Spain once said.

As to which of the list of factors you cite is the key contributor – could be any, as there are some pretty compelling posts on this thread.

What I am absolutely certain of is that finding the solution to our dire home form is what our 3m per year manager (allegedly his pay) is paid to do (and after last season's dismal home record, had to fix).

He has not. The reasons to why are open to conjecture and will continue, so long as he remains incapable of fixing the problem.

Away, we have much more positive support and a good atmosphere – at home it's poisonous and unsettling.

So shoot me.

I never mentioned in my post about dismissal, I simply asked you to name a Premier League manager with a worse home record. My reference to Wigan was, as he was hired from that club, our chairman must have looked at his managerial experience at Wigan during his four seasons there, before hiring him. Therefore talking about Premier League management, as this is Martinez's 7th season in the Premier League it is a simple question to name a Premier League manager with such a poor home record.

Don't despair, he is not going to be fired as BK has to maintain the "plucky Everton" image who do not fire the manager. The reason for this is BK is not the type of person to admit he made a mistake.

Watching a recording of the game earlier today, I saw how the Albion Captain Fletcher? was fully focussed on the matter in hand when he stood waiting to lead his team out for yesterday's game. What was our Captain doing, having a laugh and a joke with their goalkeeper, perhaps not that important in the grand scheme of things but also perhaps an indication of how this current Everton team are prepared for battle?

It's such a shame that Roberto's master plan is being undermined by the Goodison faithful, it wouldn't happen to Arsenal, City, United or Liverpool would it?

Tony Pulis has been doing this for years, that is why teams who need saving from relegation turn to him. Come on, Roberto, you are wasting a good side who should be challenging for European competition. It's currently very, very frustrating.

I do think RM wants to play a certain way, and I do think it fails sometimes – I couldn't exactly defend that could I!

I was also one of those who was not at all happy about him becoming manager in the first place and I don't think he's necessarily going to win us the league either.

What I do think is that the 'fine margins' he talks about all the time are true.

Do we sack our manager because we have only lost one away from home this season?

I too don't want to return to a 6/7/8 side, playing dull football with no future prospects to see develop.

We are certainly in the minority James or appear to be on TW.

If the players who started yesterday (the players everyone on here wanted starting) did their job properly, we would have murdered them. He made 2 bad substitutions yesterday but that's not what lost us the game. Great defending (West Brom), not concentrating, and bad finishing is what lost us the game. It can't be bad management and bad tactics if you create 32 chances to score.

Roberto may well have a point that over time it will bear fruit, but patience has worn thinner with each passing home game, the silent treatment started before Christmas 2014 and has continued, it will not stay silent for much longer and then Goodison will truly be a horrible place for the home team to play. Something has to give and if the manager won't change, we have to change the manager.

You are as bad as Martinez. Don't swap numbers for the big picture. I saw every one of the so called attempts that statisticians counted. I also saw Ben Foster not break a sweat or make a save worthy of the name so I don't really care how much you or Martinez claim that that was an acceptable performance, because it was not. 34 attempts, pretty much every one worthless. Ross hit the post, and Cleverley was deflected onto the bar, but they are both misses as the Opta gurus will tell you.

You are also trying to twist things certainly where I am concerned. I am not saying his performance at another club is grounds for dismissal (although my opinion it is very strong grounds for not employing him in the first place but that is a different). It absolutely IS relevant to look at previous work with a different employer when he repeats the same failings in order to predic where he takes his team now.

Again, you trot out another trite soundbite, that the 6/7/8 side was the dullest football in years, and again that is wrong. I have never been so bored or frustrated watching Everton in over 40 years as I am watching a Martinez side. The dullest football I have seen is now as it is the most predictable. Even more of a crime is that the quality of player is nowhere near the worst I have seen. Clearly, you either didn't watch or have selectively removed the quality of football played in 2007/8 as an example.

Personally, I don't think you see what Martinez is trying to achieve, you only think you do, because ain't happening. Or at best, if that is provocative, what he is *trying* to achieve he hasn't a hope in hell of accomplishing. There is the little matter of an opposing team who my also know what he is trying to achieve and are generally two or three steps ahead in imposing their own game plan in the full knowledge he will not change his. It isn't particularly difficult, and quite embarrassing to be outthought (consistently) by managers like Tony Pulis.

And on the crowd, yeah you're getting slaughtered. Firstly if you think it's not great then they will let you in to change things. The turnstiles aren't wide enough to get an armchair through though.

You can't complain about yesterday though, the crowd was very animated in the second half. Shite substitutions also upped the crowd reaction several notches too. The real problem though is that it is very difficult to get animated or encouraging when most of our precious possession is sideways passes between centre backs, and back to the goalkeeper. The onus is on the team and manager to create an atmosphere to encourage the fans, that's what they are paid very handsomely for.

We're losers, serial losers I'm sorry to say, and this manager fits right in. I thought he was going to change it in 2013-14, as many others did. Seems ridiculous now. If we're honest, you can feel the mediocrity permeating the club, it's there in the stadium and in the waffle about how warm and marvellously good-hearted we are.

I think this is it, actually. For the first time in a very long time of supporting the club, I am starting to feel that we are just full of shit. Whenever it matters, we are cowards. Whatever the Latin is for that might be a new and fitting motto.

There are those who think it is a matter of being positive and waiting for the sun to start shining. Good luck to them, I'm tired of it after 60 years of support.

The fans are the same, the circumstances are different. The attitude of the team should not be different.

Sorry but you're talking bollocks. Where did I say the goal was directly Martinez' fault? Although having a man on the post is a decent argument, I didn't say every single incident in a game is the fault of the manager. Otherwise no team would ever score against us and yes that's bollocks.

The point is when all these incidents add up and cannot be dismissed as statistical means but are in fact systemic and inherently repeated time and time time again, then yes that is the responsibility of the manager if he can't stop them, which is increasingly irrefutable. If that isn't the case then no manager is ever culpable would ever lose his job and that's as big a statement of bollocks as anything I've ever heard.

Now that did make the laugh! I think the stewards on the turnstiles wouldn't let you in any with an armchair- but they don't seem fussed if you wear blinkers (and by that I mean that we're probably all blinkered in a way, me included probably) - or are carrying a big greasy chip on one shoulder.

We did dominate the game again, what we didn't do was get the result we wanted. It's always feast or famine on here, get beat and it a disaster of mega proportions! It's easy to be critical after the event, the subs didn't work so they were bad subs, easy ain't it.

There's 12 games left yet, lets see where we are at the end of the season, if we are still 10th or 11th then Roberto's position will be in doubt.

Some people think it's just our best ever premiership squad that is to blame, not our beloved manager, how sad is that?

The only double standards being applied here are being applied by you. You must think we were born yesterday. Just because you didn't blame Robles on this thread, doesn't mean we missed your snide remarks about being too slow to get back on another.

I'd love you to show me where Howard was blamed for the Shaqiri goal, just so I know you haven't made it up... and Howard was not blamed for the Chelsea late equaliser, he was blamed for his air shot letting them back into the games.

Everyone who watches Everton knows the defence is brittle, but there won't be many buying your desperate claims that all those goals were down to defenders. Tim Howard has been dogshit, and has been far and away the chief culprit.

Robles will be criticised when he makes a mistake. Not when you try to claim he has made a mistake. The reason your guy gets so much criticism is because he makes so many mistakes.

This is not that difficult to grasp. It's very basic statistical maths

We might as well have substituted Robles for Howard!

Seamus was playing in attack. Deulofeu instead? Lennon at right back. Oviedo was playing in attack. Mirallas instead?

Their bus contained 4 centre-halves, and we kicked crosses into the box, from our 14 corners.

Total bloody ineptitude.

Deulofeu for Cleverley.

Osman for McCarthy.

Look, we could go on all night. You think Martinez was at fault for yesterday, I don't. We'll have to agree to disagree

I'm sure Roberto knows his excuses won't last much longer. Sometimes we need to win ugly but we never do.

Does that not convince you we need to try someone different next season?

We have a coach who is not good enough for many and not quite bad enough for some. So here we are, going nowhere.

We did not dominate the ball. West Brom are better without it than they are with it. . so they let us have it.

They sat back in two banks and whenever we tried to go forward they were happy to give away free kicks and corners. They were supremely confident that we would not score from a dead ball situation and they were right

He was a lower league journeyman pro as a player, who had only been a manager for 6 years when he was given the job of managing our great club. His managerial record was nothing to write home about (to say the least) 50% win rate at Swansea, 29% at Wigan. He fluked an FACup win mainly down, ironically, to us (Phil Neville to be precise) and Man City not turning up at the final. Without that fluke he never would have got the job having just relegated Wigan - through stupid over attacking, stubbornness (ring any bells?). The disastrous Arsenal v Wigan match at the end of his relegation season (Wigan got in winning position should have won and stayed up, but lost) being the classic example, which he has since replicated on several occasions as our manager, because he never learns.

Nothing that is happening surprises me, he's a naive, fantasist, casino manager that lives in his own world.

I can't allow you to continue with this line without making comment.

Martinez in the past has mentioned the danger of quoting statistics (and to be fair he's not alone). Statistics as, many of us know, hardly ever tell the real story and can even be used to give credibility to something that is far from the truth.

I'll have to accept that we had 34 shots on goal – I didn't count. Bit I will say that we never looked as though we'd score. We were often blasting aimlessly in to a packed goalmouth when there was little chance of getting through – yet we did this repeatedly.

Some of out best chances, where there were openings, were no more than back passes – such was their tame news! We are one of the teams who don't have players who can rocket the ball in to the net from outside the area except for Ross in rare occasions. The clearest-cut chances fell to McCarthy, who as much as I like him can't hit the broadside of a barn, and Barkley who had a bad day in front of goal.

The real point about our (on the face of it) good 'goals for' record is that the goals have either arrived in gluts (as I think your current adversary Joe Clitheroe – who incidentally is making a real fist of challenging your views – pointed out) or when we've scored them, the opposition has scored an equal or greater number and we've drawn or lost the game! For me, this is not something which causes me to leap about in happiness at the final whistle.

I've also seen a mass of games, both this and last season, where we've hardly had a single shot on target – mainly as a result of passing ourselves into oblivion. The last three games lifted my spirits and I really thought we were on our way. But, to be perfectly frank, we never really looked like scoring on Saturday. Partly because of a bit bad luck but mainly through a lack of imagination from Martinez about how you break down a team who parks the bus, together with a lack of understanding about which of our own players are most likely to achieve that. In that respect, would you put your money in Kone or Mirallas to score against a packed defence? Take your time on that one!

The issue that's consistently galling about Martinez is how he constantly refers to fine margins while he continues to display a complete lack of understanding about how we can play to affect those margins.

This lack of understanding (as with many of Martinez's flaws) stems from his footballing philosophy which dismisses many of the tools that managers who live in the real world make use of to secure a win – particularly in evenly contested games. The debasing of set-pieces is probably his biggest and most consistent crime in this context.

Finally, I want to mention the crowd. Until Lennon's substitution, the crowd were in good form on Saturday. There's no chicken-and-egg situation here. It's always up to the player to get the crowd roaring behind them. The easiest way to do this is to start the game at a high tempo – a rarity under Martinez, which is probably why there is increasing crowd anxiety at Goodison these days.

One final point about Saturday's game: Niasse should have been on the bench for a 20-minute cameo role at the least. Under Martinez the brave – not a chance. We must wait until he's in a good moment. As for the fans and their good moment... who cares!

Bang on. Pulis dragged Martinez hook line and sinker into his game plan.

Jamie I'll correct you in the same way you corrected Trevor. Not all of us wanted the team he put out. I don't agree with the way he puts out two defensive midfielders every single game without fail. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. Usually it does not.

Certainly anyone could see it wasn't working very early in the game yesterday. Tom Cleverley is not a left sided midfielder either. It worked against Stoke, Carlisle and Newcastle were never at the races. But any manager like Pulis who can competently set up a team to defend in an organised way can quickly exploit an imbalanced team.

I like a number of other supporters were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and in his first season was pleasantly surprised,even if at the end of it some of the defensive frailties that are showing up today were there. In his second season a lot of the criticism was overlooked by the games in the Europa Cup being believed to be the cause , even though our results were poor during the period were we had no European games, and I think Tottenham are destroying that theory.

During that period from last season and the majority of this season my take on Martinez was not for him to be fired but to,(a) bring in a quality midfielder that can help to unlock defensive teams and (b) bring in a defensive coach preferably an Italian one were defense seems to be in their blood, to help him in his philosophy, unfortunately neither happened .

Myself and most probably you and a lot of supporters have played or coached in a number of sports and even relating to your employment it does not matter what level you are at, once your performances drop consistently, you are relieved of your duties.

The position that Martinez is in he is able to hire top class people in various aspects of the sport but the people he brought with him from Wigan for his first team squad just do not seem to be up to the task, and these poor results reflect on them as well as him, as they are his coaching team.

I have an video of the history of Everton on which J.Moores says Everton supporters are the best and they disserve the best and by golly I will see they get the best and this is the attitude I believe Everton should be looking at in their hiring, and I do not think we have the best because Martinez is to stubborn to change although at times it looks good he is unable to see that football is not one dimensional it consists of attack and defense and you have to rely on both aspects of the game to be successful .

I do not ask for him to be dismissed as with this board and chairman it is not going to happen , but remember in valuating Martinez, tactics and styles in football are constantly changing and you must be willing to change with it and it is useless in trying something that does not work consistently. As they say (if you live by the sword you will die by the sword ) You can not hope that what worked successfully 2 seasons ago is suddenly going to work again. Remember other managers are paid lots of money to study their opponents and provide tactics to stop them.

As well as on the Live Forum where he was getting slaughtered, which I cannot pull up. Here you go lad from the article "Yet More Exasperation at Goodison Park":
There are several articles from which you may choose.
Anto Byrne
7 Posted 29/12/2015 at 04:19:18
The most galling aspect of the game was when their second goal went in. It was with out doubt pure class and a wonderful goal and right up there for goal of the season. Howard's reaction or lack of it, his positioning off his line that when the ball floated over him he was somewhat bemused by it all.

Then we have in the same article from Eddie Dunn,
Paul, a minor point about the penalty, Howard didn't guess right, he went to his right and Arnautovic put it right where Howard had been, despite losing his footing in his run-up. If Tim had stayed put, it would have been straight into his midriff.

So now we blame Tim again for a PK?

These are two of the nicer ones from the comments.

Then we go to Everton Beaten at the Last in 7 Goal Thriller,

Anto Byrne
5 Posted 28/12/2015 at 15:56:26
Two sucker punch counter attacks and a keeper all at sea, he made no attempt whatsoever with the second as he was so obviously out of position. How much longer do we have to endure this clown in goal?

and,

Oliver Molloy
232 Posted 28/12/2015 at 22:14:38
Howard at fault again for their second goal, what is he doing that far off his line? Why is he palming the ball, taking the pace off it for their third, he should have punched it in my mind.

It isn't double standards. It is a case of your shifting standards. You prefer to call every thing Tim does a mistake by him whether others do or not. You prefer to excuse or ignore wht could be deemed as mistakes by Robles.

Perhaps it is the standards (your standards) that need defining? Yours are more prone to change than the level of beer in my glass, and that sir, I can assure you gets refilled often during these games and discussions.

You continue to blame Howard for everything while I continue to say fix the freaking defense and then judge the keeper.

My point was that it was nice to not see people jumping all over the keeper for a goal by an unmarked man. If you truly believe that had Howard been in goal he wouldn't have been skewered for the goal being caught out and then falling forward into his own goal hopelessly like Robles did, you sir are being dishonest. As for your claim the goal couldn't be saved, well if Robles had been on the line, maybe it would have, but we will never know will we?

In his first home game against WBA - TW reported Overall, it was a fairly flat start to Martinez's tenure on home turf, with a performance illustrative of the argument that you can have all the possession and passes you like, but you still have to carve out enough chances to win the game. It also highlighted the lack of a genuinely incisive playmaker in the centre who can make things happen on a consistent basis. Barkley provided plenty of moments of spark and he was, by and large, the most purposeful of the Blues' midfielders but while he is still learning his craft, someone else needs to be taking the initiative.

One-hundred and twenty-odd games later and it doesn't seem to me that any of the issues that we had at the start of Roberto's regime have been solved and possibly they have gotten worse - but hey ho give him until the end of this season, ten games into next season, until Christmas 2016, until we are out of all the cups, until the end of 2016-17....repeat and fade....

Those who see a future of success under this clown need to cite some games where we've taken someone other than relegation fodder by the scruff of the neck and walloped them.

I'm gutted that our mediocre board were never able to fund OFM like they have the Incredible One. With the teams he built, a proven goal scorer like Rom would have thrived.

Small margins.

As it is we're only 6 points behind 5 spot.

Small margins.

As someone above said, it's always feast or famine on here.

Pochettino, Pellegrini, SAF, Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho et al sit on the bench during the game, listening to coaches opinions. Has RM ever set on the bench? Maybe if he listened to some opinions during the game, he might make better adjustments and substitutions. He has a good fast break plan for road games, but appears devoid of ideas when the other team scores first and then parks the bus at Goodison.

I have not, they make the same mistakes over and over the play is slow they play statues when going forward so who ever has the ball cannot make a pass.

The manager who sets the team up does it the same every game win lose or draw only some of the players on the pitch may change.

Why did he not sell Mirralles? He will not use him but will play Kone who as others have said is a centre forward not a winger. But on the bus coming away from the ground one comment I heard was as a number nine he is a disgrace to the previous players who had that shirt.

I am not a manager have not played at any level but have been an Everton fan since a kid so was brilliant that I could get a season ticket, but if this goes on much more it will be the last one.

If I can travel and turn up I expect the team to Every week, if they cannot why should I.

I can't say the same about Roberto's team apart from that long-forgotten winning streak in his first season. Perhaps, I'm not as naive as I was in my youth, but this Everton team is as likely to lose a match when it's head and shoulders better than any given opponent and it doesn't instil much confidence in many Evertonians even when it's playing well.

That might be a psychological flaw on my part or I have lost that belief over the years due to witnessing so much failure at the club in the last 3 decades, or it could be that the manager really isn't cut out to be an Everton manager and no matter how we dress it up, he has a litany of failure behind him and shows no real signs of becoming a serial winner, but small margins may well be the reason and whoever we have as manager will suffer the same consequences because we unlike our neighbours are just a very very unlucky club.

Winners are always on the right side of the margin, Mr Martinez has found himself on the wrong side of that margin far too often, perhaps an unlucky manager has found an unlucky club or perhaps both the club and the manager are born losers.

Genuinely interested - does anyone have an idea?

Perhaps if he practised defence more and adding pace to the attack we might even get lucky?

How many small margins, bad refereeing decisions or bad luck are we supposed to have before people see the blindingly obvious!?!?! Martinez has had 7 or 8 seasons in the Premier League and has been utter dogshit in all of them bar one, and that was because of what was put in place by the previous management team!!

Probably one of the funniest things I've read on ToffeeWeb.

Joe@200 "Certainly anyone could see it wasn't working very early in the game yesterday."

I thought we played very well in the first half. Just goes to show how people see things differently.
As a matter of interest, I know you say you wouldn't play two holding midfielders (I'm in agreement) When would you have changed it? 10/15 minutes in?

And it was Cleverley that came off for Kone, not Lennon. Lennon came off for Deulofeu.

Andy@196 It was a one off. We haven't battered a team like that and got fuck all for it this season.

Lennon played alright but could you really say him being on the pitch would have made a difference? Well it didn't for the majority of the game!

It just seems to me that we play teams on their terms. If they want an open end-to-end game, we play an open game. If they want to sit deep and counter, we faithfully play our role and have plenty of unthreatening possession. Every now and then we get a team who fancy camping in our half and we drop their trousers.

Why not aim to play the game on our terms? We want West Brom out of their half, right? Well let's come up with a plan to do that. It's got to be better than accepting their invitations to send crosses into the box.

All season we've looked better when we've sat deeper and had less of the ball. And all season we've played a possession game high up the pitch. So I don't give a shit about whether it's Lennon, Kone, Deulofeu, Osman, Barkley, McCarthy... they're all decent enough players. We just have to play smarter; then we can start thinking about the intricacies of individual player selections.

At the moment we're back to being a good sparring partner. We just play out our role based on what the opposition are trying to do.

I have said many times, the chapter on 'How who and when to make substitutions' is obviously missing from Roberto's 'How to Manage to get your team in to the Championship' book.

A strong finish to this season may even see our man improve his win ratio to the 32 per cent required to overtake the Baggy Dinosaur. Keep the faith, won' yus!

Forget the league, for a club like Everton it's not important. We should concentrate on the bigger picture, developing young talent to play for other clubs and make sure we're the most entertaining mid-table club in the Premier League.

I see only two people (out of thousands on here ) really criticising Howard for that goal and both appear to me to be complaining about the accumulation of errors rather than this one in particular. "How much longer do we have to explain this clown in goal" represented the views of the overwhelming majority of those who don't have an allegiance to either keeper, but simply want a decent one.

You failure to see your double standards, is as staggering as your failure to see Howard's blunders.

You howl at the injustice of it all when Howard is criticised for clear errors, yet when Robles concedes under fluke circumstances, you're on it like a tramp on chips.

Fair play to to you, you bided your time, it must have been so frustrating for you that you had to wait for four games to stick the knife in.

I don't recall ever seeing a post from you that wasn't defending Howard or attacking Robles. Broaden your horizons son. Howard's finished.

I would probably laugh too . . if I didn't understand the point

Its' a funny old thing isn't it. Life. Criticism. Judgement. etc.

We post on here, and I have swung both ways, criticising and defending RM. Vilifying and protecting him.

As with most posters since Saturday the exit pols are not good for Bobby – clearly very anti-RM.

I work down south and in the company of mainly Spurs, Arse and West Ham fans. Yesterday my boss (Spurs) started to have a bit of a 'go' at us and RM. I said "Hang on, leave off, that's our man you talking about here."

"Your man?", he says, "a couple of weeks ago you wanted him walking the plank."

"That might be right", says I, "I may have said something like that, but he is our man and we can say what we want. You're Spurs – so save it for Pochettino."

That was the gist of the conversation – a few f's and c's thrown in for good measure – and the usual banter (we do get on ok) , but it makes you realise, does it not, that whatever we are feeling, RM figuratively does wear the Blue shirt, and he IS our man. For now at least.

I don't know how others on here react but ALWAYS find myself stepping up to defend any of our men, or ladies for that matter (won a really top Chinese meal off an Arse fan when we beat them in the ladies fa cup final a couple, or more, years back) who are getting knocked by other supporters – be it Howard, RM, Delboy, Barks, Kone, Ossie, Moyes, whoever – all who get a bit of slating because they are OURS.

I do think sometimes there are a couple of 'sleepers', redshite agents or whatever, lurking around on ToffeeWeb but like I said – funny old lot aren't we. Loyal to the roots most of us whatever we are saying.

And please don't accuse fellow ToffeeWebers of supporting the other side. Wind ya neck in, people have different opinions. Respect it. You could learn something.

Well you've used up almost three seasons, Roberto and where are we? David Moyes at least had us thought of as a perennial top-eight club, but this clown is turning us into a perennial bottom-half club. Whatever good work Moyes did (and even his detractors have to give him credit for a lot), Martinez lived off the benefits of that work for the first half of his first season, since when he's thrown it all away until we now look like one of the Titanic's lifeboats, afloat on an open ocean loaded with a group of brave souls waiting to be rescued.

All the excuses are wearing thin as he trots out the same old rhetoric every week as we slide slowly towards oblivion. Statistics, and we all know Martinez loves his stats, show his win ratio to be slightly less than Pulis's over the last three years, totally unacceptable for a club like ours. Our form and results over the last two seasons are really just one small step from being genuine relegation form.

For God's sake, let the board grow a pair and give potential buyers a positive sign by dumping the Catalan clown and showing them we do have ambition to be better than he is making us appear. Roberto Martinez is slowly strangling the life and the passion from our great club. Whoever replaces him certainly can't do much worse.

We are very much a one man band. Billy Boy may consult with the other directors but at the end of the day he makes the decisions apparently. I remember him being quoted that he deliberated for 2 days before sacking Smith. Earl has only set foot in Goodison twice.

It it down to his lack of vision that the 2 managers he has appointed were from Preston then Wigan.

17 years of treading water.

Do you not feel like sticking up for OUR'S when others are dissing?

Not having a go at you for watching on TV but you do see a better aspect watching the game live. I understand you haven't been able to see the games due to other commitments.

Fan 1 said, "The majority of fans are right behind the manager."

Fan 2 said, "Martinez is building a great squad and we're near where we want to be. "

Fan 3 said "Thousands of fans can see what the manager is doing right, we just need a bit more consistency."

So it's only fans on this site that want the manager sacked. Now I am really disappointed.

He was a good judge of horseflesh and although Martinez has brought some talent to the squad, he did have the funds available. But what is mixing this talent with mediocrity? As long as Martinez insists with this philosophy, we will stay as simple fodder and also rans!

We have never suffered the indignities currently afflicting the Villa and on a modest budget have GENERALLY out-performed the likes of Spurs, Stoke, Southampton and Leicester.

In business and commercial matters, it's a different story and the showman's reign is littered with bad decisions, poor judgement and obfuscation – particularly in his treatment of the fanbase.

In short, Kenwright has run the Club like a sycophant, respecting its history and loving being involved with his heroes. The trouble is that lacking the funds to 'make a proper job of it', it became a survival game and, lets be clear, he's certainly managed that.

I never thought I'd say it but 'now the end is near' I have much greater concerns about those rumoured to replace him!

Fair point mate. You do certainly get a much better idea of everything when you're there, I agree.

I always thought Barry was a shite player till I saw him in the flesh for us the first few times, now I see what a fine footballer he really is.

I do think RM could benefit a lot from watching a few halves from higher up so he can see what we see (albeit not me this season). I've been to loads of games and sat right at the front and it's nowhere near as good as when you're higher up as your perspective is totally skewed and you can't really see what's going on.

RM strikes me as someone who can't really see what's going on.

1. Is it possible that he doesn't want to vocally address the problems to the media, that every-one here can see, because if there's no change after he states the obvious, it gives more reason to sack him? Knowing him, he doesn't know how to change the game or his philosophy up.

2. Is it possible he's embarrassed to publicly state that the majority of his players have been quite lethargic for many of the games? No drive, no passion, no ambition,

3. Besides becoming the Aston Villa that was 7 years ago, can he do anything else to our team? The counter attacking football that Aston Villa was known for didn't last very long, now, did it?

4. The substitutions are so robotic, same pattern over and over... does he even need to be there at the game?

5. Why would he even talk about more possession and controlling the game and what not when Leicester is a prime example of excellence?

6. His players aren't disciplined. Moyes had his players disciplined, not that I liked him very much. The only thing they are disciplined to do is pass sideways and backwards.

7. Subs were alright with me. It's just who he took off that really ticked me off. He should have switched Barry for Kone, he was on a yellow, doesn't have pace if they counter; Deulofeu for Cleverly, and Osman for Oviedo in the last 5 mins. Have McCarthy, Jagielka and Funes Mori at the back.

Players who played well: Lennon, Barry.

Players who played shit: Lukaku, Barkley.

Lukaku was a step too slow today, he won around 3 out of 20 50/50 balls. Never had the desire to score. I would have actually liked him taken off cos he was playing like that £2.5 mill Championship striker of last season. Cleverley crossed in a cross a bit too deep to indirectly tell Lukaku "Move your ass". He was too idle, too slow... too useless.

Barkley besides that shot that hit the post was playing for the other team. He slowed down the game on our counter attacks, never really looked a threat and scuffed the easiest chance of the game.

I've never understood how managers and coaches stand in the technical areas and observe the game from there.

I have sat in the Uppur Bullens for the last 30 years or so and it is the best stand, for me, to watch the game from. Halfway point, you don't miss much and get an excellent view of the match. I hope you get to Goodison soon.

The absence or sacrifice of sound defensive tactics on the altar of attacking, possession-based football has not, and never will, work. Without someone marshaling the defence on the pitch, critical defence coaching is required; however, even that means nothing if you end up with your fullbacks trying to bury chances, consistently in an opponents box. What are they doing there? What happens on a break...???

It comes down to a philosophy, but it is one that has no pragmatic basis. No-one takes responsibility, but crucially neither does our manager. It just is not good enough. We quote the School of Science, but no longer have we men of steel in defence, in midfield.

I doubt Roberto can or will change, which means someone has to tell him to move on. He gave us a glimpse of what could be, but failed to be pragmatic when faced with the reality of our limitations. His failure to adapt, sadly will be his undoing. And that's sad because, on those occasions when it comes together, it's a delight to watch. But so were Wigan.

Why do some posters blame the home support for our current shite displays, then also state that Everton are the dogs bollocks when we play away??

I get tickets for away games quite a bit and have been doing so since the early 80's. At this time most home grounds are quiet and funny enough at the likes of the Arsenal (known as the library), United and at City the away support do all the singing and I mean always, even when we are getting beat and the home support mainly sing when they score. The only grounds I go to where there is constant chanting by the home support are Stoke, the Spuds & West Ham.

Times have changed (immensely) and the Goodison home support is no longer the bulk of working class people who chanted songs, took the piss out of the away end and provided a blue unity primarily in the Gwladys, however if there was a small away support then we could go into the Park End. I can tell you that chanting and singing at Goodison Park would start a good hour before kick off and would continue well after the players left the pitch. By the way, the constant chanting and singing didn't seem to affect the players that much, as we did lose occasionally.

For me, I do not agree that our players are currently affected by the home support at Goodison Park. Do you posters think that Oviedo did not stick to the far post, for the West Brom corner, because the home support was giving him shite or that Kone comes on and plays like a twat because he has the hump with a section of the ground. Fuck no, these players do exactly what RM tells them to do, because believe me there is not a blue supporter on the entire planet, not one, who would put Kone onto the pitch and play him on the right or left wing and then leave Super Kev on the bench.

West Brom had us where they wanted us and Pulis knew that RM did not know how to use the right creativity to break their defence down. Yet every blue around me could see that we should hit them wide, on both sides and drag their defence out.

Pulis said after the game that we have a top 5 squad. We do... but we have a Championship manager. Hopefully the guys that take over look at the stats and see through the sugar-coated BS Bobby spouts and he escorted from Finch Farm.

Bobby comes out with that much BS that the Pundits rub there hands together every time he opens his mouth.

Martinez talks about "bad Luck" well you sir must be the "luckiest" football manager around to still be in a job. Worse record than Walter smith and catching up with Mike Walker at a rate on knots.

On paper, there is not a huge difference in quality between the Spurs team and our own. Of course, Lloris in goal is infinitely superior to our own guardian(s), but I'm not sure you would pick any of their back four from yesterday – Walker, Alderweireld, Wimmer (who?) and Rose – ahead of ours. Not much to choose between Dembele and McCarthy/Barry, and Son Heung-min would struggle to get a start with us.

Yet, as it stands, Spurs are in with a real shout for the title and we are looking nailed on for mid-table mediocrity.

Is their squad better than ours? No. Sadly, they have a coach with tactical nous who understands organisation and game management. We've got Roberto.

We persevered with a mediocre manager for 11 years and it looks like we are going to give Martinez far too much time to go nowhere. It's a shame because we play good football and we have a good team but the reality is we are tactically inept.

I just hope to god we don't appoint a British manager because tactically none of them have a clue (unless you call a manger like Pulis a tactician!).

I have said for the last few games we should have Rodriguez on the bench instead of him, and hopefully Niasse for the next game. And to bring Osman on instead of Mirallas, I just can't get my head around.

What I will say in Martinez defence is that he has built probably the strongest squad I have seen at Everton in many many years, and I love our style of play under him. Against WBA we were in total control and played some really good football.

But if the opposition are going to just park the bus then you have to find a different way to get through them. We should have brought McCarthy and Oviedo off for the 2nd half gone 3 at the back and put Mirallas and Deulofeu in straight away and played with a bit more pace and counter attack. They might have come out a bit more if we sat back a bit and waited.

I might be wrong, I might be right. But we could have at least tried it.

Just finally, we're all entitled to our own opinion on here, so why do some have a go at others for having a different view?

Deulofeu, Barkley Cleverley Mirallas
Lennon Lukaku

Instead Everton ended up with:

Deulofeu Osman Barkley Barry Kone.
Lukaku

At least my selection looks a damn site more hopeful than what Martinez ended up eventually putting out to upset the faithful.

Both fancied their chances of catching us on the break more than they did breaking us down with sustained pressure. And both fancied their chances of defending against our sustained pressure.

We do not seem to have a Plan B when we come across a team like WBA and I cannot see us achieving anything better next season if he is still in charge. Like someone on here has already said, the only hope is either the takeover happens and they can see through him, or BK grows a pair of balls and puts him out of our misery.

It was the same against Swansea, Crystal Palace and more games which I can't recall right now. All these games should have been three points because we were so much better than the opponent. But the silly goals we let in practically makes it impossible for us to win the game. So much energy is wasted on chasing the game.

Around the 83rd minute the TV-cameras zoom in RM and you can see him saying "Patience, patience"... It's the 83rd minute for gods sake!! Get the ball into the area along with plenty of our players at any given moment. That is not the time to be patient. We are a goal behind, it's time to PUSH everything possible into the box to force a goal.

Things as such orders, his defensive (not)knowhow along with those inexplicable substitutions just tells me that he's not up for the job. I have supported him the first two seasons, but this season we have really had a chance to challenge the top, and he has ruined it with his cluelessness.

We have some really good players, and played some brilliant attacking football that could have made us top 4 contenders, but the team's defensive setup has let us down... I'm so frustrated right now, and the only thing I can see will help is MARTINEZ OUT!

And, for all the 'good' signings he has made, I'm not sure he has always deployed them to best use – particularly in their use as substitutes !

Martinez is paid an absolute fortune for his football acumen yet he played right into Pulis's hands.

On that basis, it is clear that Pulis with far less resources was the daddy.

Our chap was confused, bamboozled and with not a clue on how to respond.

I'm a patient man, but my patience with RM is over. He's had his chance, and he blew it.

The unorthodox doesn't fit into Bobbies way of thinking.

Someone keep an eye on the Mersey look out for humpbacks.

When a team parks the bus at Goodison and many teams like Albion do then at least you expect to keep a clean sheet and salvage a point but to lose all three to one sloppy goal is hard to stomach. Yes, they pummeled Albion and save for poor finishing and some bad luck may have won but they didn't and the awful season continues.

The next two games could be the end for Martinez and his lack of defensive strategies. He has run out of ideas and excuses.

Why he didn't leave Lennon on and then brings on our oldest, and slowest, player in Ossie is a mystery to me. He does lack the knowhow to break down teams who shut up shop and his substitutions are usually ineffective but, and I've said this before, he's under no pressure as the club is rudderless, in limbo if you like. There's no one above him calling the shots so we will continue in this vein for the foreseeable future unfortunately.

If we carry on as we are for another season, we will have nobody below us, which is even scarier than having nobody above Roberto – the silence from the club about anything that isn't Everton in the community related is also a bit scary.

The takeover rumours remain just that, as there appears not to have been any formal bids made for the club. When does the Early Bird window begin? Evertonians suffer a death by a thousand cuts both on and off the pitch.

I've been supporting EFC for 29 years and cannot remember a manager being as disliked??

I also cannot ever remember a manager who has subdued the GP crowd as much as RM's Philosphy has??

1. Effective Youth Policy – The number of young players to come through this season is actually very limited. I seem to remember it was a seasonal thing to have at least one youngster make the breakthrough. This season, it looked like it was going to be Galloway but he seems to have disappeared? I love the respect the Club give the 'old guard' of Hibbert, Osman, Pienaar, Howard, but really they do take up spaces that could be used to bring the youth policy forward. The U21s and U18s are doing brilliantly, and the loan policy is looking OK but I would love to see game time for some of the youngsters.

2. Attacking Football – Seems the bees knees at the moment but why do we persist with the two-man defensive midfield posture and never have two wingers on the pitch at the same time? Interestingly Barry, who has been phenomenal this season (and I'm not being sarcastic), seems to be taking on more and more offensive duties with great success.

3. Possession Based Football – The amount of tippy-tappy along the back line, and passes back to the goalie has been greatly reduced from last season and replaced by a willingness to break out with speed. However, this relies upon Lennon and Deulofeu who are both effective. Would be wonderful to see them on the pitch together, but we don't really play a possession based game and we look the better for it.

4. Best Squad in Years – Undoubtedly. However, the team should be greater than the sum of its parts, one of the core definitions of teamwork effectiveness. Why is it not working for Everton right now? Well this is the statistic that damns Roberto's credentials to little more than an overenthusiastic supporter. To openly admit he cannot understand why we are not getting favorable results when the team's performance is better than the opposition then you know he's out of his depth.

5. Wonderful Memories – The bad memories outweigh the good ones, considerably.

6. The 3-year Cycle – Onwards and Upwards... It usually takes a manager three seasons to establish 'His Team'. This is correct and is the norm. However, Everton are reversing the trend and we are losing more games, points and the supporters' trust and respect as we under-perform compared to the previous seasons.

7. Goodison park is a Fortress – Fingers crossed for the FA Cup, and we get drawn away in the next round if we progress past Bournemouth.

I am also new here, I only started posting yesterday. I have been an EFC supporter since I was 10, I am now 59. I, like you, felt that I had to let off steam, especially after the hope we had after three successive 3-0 wins and hoping to keep it up (although I would have settled for 1-0) against a WBA side who stumbled and stuttered past Peterboro the other night.

Well, here comes around another Monday where we want the week to fly past, to our next match and a possible triumph.

People have described us as being like Spurs, but I can't agree. The only thing we have in common is both teams have the best squad in years. Except, Spurs are progressing and are realising their potential; they are well equipped in every department.

Arouna Kone would never walk, into the Spurs team, even on a free transfer, and we are still having potential to have potential!

Interesting point Kim. Probably describes deep rooted bias standing in the way of enlightenment! I have the same emotions regarding Martinez. I find criticizing him leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Why, because I want him to be successful as I want any Everton manager to be successful.

Jack's view sums it up more for me in that we are now seeing real damage Roberto is causing to our club far outweighing the positive things he has done. Speaking out about that, in a thoughtful but passionate way is fine by me. I also like the inconsistent mood swings he brings about in me. Love him, hate him, sack him whatever! Makes me feel alive!

However, I think he brought Ossie on as he felt we had them penned in and needed a neat tidy footballer for intricate passing around the box. Not saying I agree with it, just trying to second guess Roberto's thinking.

Personally, (I'm no football coach), I felt a more direct, higher tempo, selfish player like Mirallas would have been the better option to Ossie. Especially after seeing the joy that Lennon had with his pace.

It's infuriating that we keep trying to score the perfect goal and are fully justifying the Arsenal-lite tag that I've heard muttered around. Our best and most dangerous football this year have been from quick, early and direct passes.

Judging purely on the stats it sounds like we battered them on the day and were unlucky. However, given they'd lost, I believe, five on the trot and every man and his dog knew they'd come here to park the bus AND they always play like that at GP since Pullis took over, I have to say I was not surprised by the result one little bit. The fact they scored off a corner was also all too predictable.

At least the fanciful 'we can still make 5th' and ridiculous '4th is still mathematically possible' statements might finally be put to bed. We will finish around 10th, just accept it.

The league was over ages ago. Hopefully with Bournemouth being away we might get through (and then pray we get an away tie!).

Can't wait for this takeover to happen.

I mean WBA lose on a regular basis so other teams find a way to score against them. Maybe RM could have said that when they do come forward and we win the ball, break swiftly in numbers, get the ball up to the front men early. But, for large periods of the game, on the rare occasions they did attack our build up was too slow.

And yes, we were a little unlucky that either the Barkley shot or the Cleverley cross didn't go in instead of hitting the post. But our failure to put away these teams has been symptomatic of last season and this season, so it's not just luck that is stopping us. It's our coach's failure, especially at Goodison, to beat teams who defend with 10 men behind the ball.

Now we go on about being a top 6 side; well, can you tell me a team that consistently finish in the top 6 who would put up with our league position for last season and our current position this season?

Man Utd are 5th and the papers are full of LVG being sacked, Pellegrini has already been told he his sacked at the end of the season. Chelsea – despite winning the Premier League last season – have already sacked one of the best coaches in football... now if Mourhino wasn't allowed to have a bad season after his record with Chelsea, why are we hanging on to a man whose last job was to get a team relegated from the Premier League?

The truth is, we are an average club run by amateurs and owned by fools. Roberto is good for another 5 seasons if the Moyes era is anything to go by!!!

I think Roberto comes in for way, way too much stick. I'd argue most of it short-sighted.

But to be fair, he completely missed the plot this weekend.

He "did right" in my opinion by keeping an unchanged side.

But the subs... I don't understand them in the least and frankly Roberto just shit the bed.

Football can be cruelly unfair. That's what we witnessed against West Brom.

But Roberto not only didn't help himself and the team with his substitutions, he hindered us from winning. And that's just stupid and unforgivable.

Unless this takeover happens quickly, the lunatics will remain in charge of the asylum.

The problem for me was the loss of momentum in the second half, and then the inability of RM to change things to get that momentum back. In fact, his substitutions exacerbated that loss of momentum and just played into WBA's hands. I find his refusal to use Mirallas in that situation to be nearly incomprehensible, when his preferred option is someone who's struggling to such a degree as Kone.

He seems to be falling into the same trap as Moyes did; with this weird desire to continually play players out of position. Kone is a striker, Cleverley is a central midfielder, and he keeps forcing them into wide positions even when we have actual specialists in those positions. It's perhaps partly because we're heavily stacked on the right side (Mirallas, Lennon and Deulofeu are all ostensibly right wingers), but forcing someone like Kone out there consistently seems just stupid.

The Club are in due diligence. They're keeping their fat mouths shut for good reason and purpose.

The Early Bird season ticket thing... they're probably not publishing anything because if the sale of the Club comes to fruition...

Gulp.... ticket prices are going UP! As soon as the deal goes through you'll get your Early Bird offer – with a 25% increase.

Cynically yours,

Sir James C Crowley IV

With regards to the WBA game, those of you that were at that Monday night last season will see parallels with Saturday's game. The only difference was that WBA scored. Besides that, the two games were dismal. The former game voted the worst Monday game of the season.

So if you are blatantly honest, the same old failures exist for this team/squad. I know many fans that are finding it difficult to be up for a game at GP. That's how bad its become.

We lost because, by the time we had the ball in the other team's half, they had all their players bar one behind the ball.

Lessons to be learned #1: When you have two players like Lennon and Lukaku, you give them the ball as fast as you can and race up the field before the opposition have time to get behind the ball.

Lesson to be learned #2: When you are one-nil up, you defend like West Brom and don't concede three goals to put you out the League Cup.

Lesson to be learned #3: You leave the club you are screwing before the fans become so bitter and disenchanted they start calling for your head on a plate. (Although this lesson also needs to be learnt by the Board if they want to remain being seen as committed Evertonians.)

And the fans are thrashing one another with the lifebelts instead of throwing them to the floundering crew!!!

Yes, Kim, defending Everton to your colleagues is one aspect of being a fan. But that has little to do with what we provide here on ToffeeWeb... for avowed Evertonians.

I guess I need to make the point again that the association Kim made with there being "redshite agents" on here is totally unacceptable ad hominem nonsense. We court a wide range of views exchanged from a wide range of Evertonians. Some Blues will find some views hard to accept. That is fuel for discussion; there is no tolerance for playing the 'redshite' card.

I can clearly remember us saying virtually the same things last season, which surely goes to prove we have made absolutely no progress at all under Martinez. Just hope we don't have to suffer another season with him in charge. Get rid now, please!

What goes on in here and other EFC forums is family business and families don't wash their dirty laundry in public.

You asked for proof, I gave it to you. I didn't pull them all. I can show you similar posts from other games but maybe you should do that bit of research yourself. If you could go back over the comments on the live forum you would also see what I mean.

Howard or Robles was not supposed to be the point. Again, it was that it was nice to see the focus of the criticism was on the defending. However, continue to play devil's advocate or whatever counter-point debate you wish. By all means please, continue to keep sliding the focus of your commentary. You are adept at the "yeah, well... but" style of argument.

My point is fix the defense first before blaming the keeper whether it is Robles or Howard. Stop talking about poor form, or not, of the last player on the defensive side on a team that has a poorly organized and drilled defense. Fix the defense first, then judge your keepers as to what they can and cannot do. Case in point, Begovich, Butland, and now even De Gea are suffering because of the defenders in front of them. Is it poor form or poor defending?

Now I agree he made the wrong subs, and personally I think the game was crying out for a wildcard player in Mirallas (not Kone) but he didn't and we lost thanks to a jammy/flukey goal and excellent defensive unit.

I was never keen on RM from the off when he joined the club, but I do think he tries to play the right way. His problem is his stubborn nature, and lack of flexibility – he just changes like for like players and doesn't really have an effect on the nature of games, and is unable to change patterns of play.

If we win our next game, people will back off, then we lose and people will attack him again – unfortunately as many of us said when he was given the job, he'll win you a few games, we'll hammer a few teams too, but we'll also lose games due to the way he plays and that's exactly what we've got. Inconsistency. It's why he's a good cup manager but will never make a decent league-campaign-manager.

I could pick out quite a few posters as being exceptionally good but I particularly enjoyed # 237 Mike Gwyer's post.

Earlier on there was discussion about the position Managers take up when viewing the game. All Managers stand on the touch line because it's from where they can best get messages to the players. Having said that it seems Martinez only has a one-gesture-does-all approach. A sort of spinning the wheel gesture. It doesn't seem to make any difference to the players whatsoever even if they know what it's supposed to mean!

Anyway the point is fans get a far better strategic view of the game from a higher position than Managers and coaches do with probably the seats around the directors box giving probably the best overall view.

Anyone who's ever been on the pitch at Goodison will know that because of the camber from Bullens Road side to Goodison Road is so great that from where Martinez stands you can only see the heads of players on the far side (wings) of the pitch. Whether this affects his judgement of the game ot his just naturally stupid we may never know.

There is one manager (I can't remember who) who has an aid in the stands with a line to the bench giving him a better tactical view of the game. I'm sure if he was having major success with this stategy we'd all know about it!

I thought this was is one of the few post I've mad where I've not continuously moaned about Martinez from start to finish. But on re-reading I realise I pretty much have. I can't forgive him for the way he's made me feel this week!

As an afterthought: - Is Martinez the only Manager whose name has never been chanted by the supporters and does this indicate a huge lack of connection?

We do sing his name.

He does need to watch from the stands.

He needs to watch from the stands....... as an ex manager.

Never have the club tolerated such a managerial record and backed the man with a record amount spent on signings.

I just hope our prospective new owners have a replacement in mind.

Just a thought, how we laughed in the faces of the old school cloggers when we appointed Bobby. Warnock, Pulis, Pardew, Allardyce, Bruce etc..

They've all managed to outfox Bobby at some point with their "bags of smoke straight down the middle" approach. Each time he has been totally flummoxed. Surely this is the most damning of all.

James, just have to take issue with you again. It's the continuing pattern of Martinez' reign that we are seeing that is wearing people down. It appears that he is completely unable to have the team perform well enough to produce results over a prolonged period – say 6 or 7 games for the sake of argument.

Additionally you cannot ignore the abysmal home form (by which I mean both performance and results) that those of us, at the end of each defeat by small margins; poor refereeing decisions; and sheer bad luck – according to the arrogant one) have had to deal with every time trudge wearily away from Goodison Park on occasions far to numerous for it to be someone else's fault!

Yes we did think and hoped we'd turned some sort of corner after the Stoke game but Saturday demonstrated clearly we hadn't. Let me also ask you whether it would have been reasonable for us supporters to expect him to have drafted a cunning plan to be implemented if we fell to a goal behind against a park-the-bus Pulis team. The answer is, of course, yes but there was absolutely no evidence of this being the case on Saturday!

Many of us were hoping that – with a better standard of players and a proper football loving fan-base – Roberto would thrive and take us to a new level. Unfortunately he can't handle the pressure.

Some of his purchases have been very good; some have been mysterious. On Saturday, when he needed a catalyst to help the team in the last 20 minutes, he omitted him from his squad entirely.

Why did he pay 㾹m for him in the first place or is he saving him to win the Cup Final in May? Nice man, bad manager, same as the Chairman who is also a very nice man.

A few years ago, we had a real young old-fashioned centre-back called Shane Duffy. An old-style centre-half who was a proper defender. Well, Roberto fucked him off and, to be honest, it's been downhill all the way since.

I feel about him the same way you feel about Tim, and I doubt that both of us can be wrong.

If Martinez had put Mirallas, Deulofeu and Baines on taking off Oviedo, Cleverly and Barry and went all out attack taking the risk. Then I would have taken the end result being still 1-0 (or even worse).

But going like for like Lennon for Deulofeu, and the other two substitutions showed exactly where Martinez is as a manager. Nowhere.

You really are something. You repeatedly criticise Robles, even when he was keeping clean sheets.

You couldn't criticise the defence because they where denying you the goal your heart ached for, They were giving you what you claim you wanted, a solid base, but they were doing it without your man . You could have praised them, but all you could do was bleat that Robles had nothing to do. Your frustration became even more apparent when you made the ridiculous claim that he hadn't made a save... did you think the rest of us were not watching? When others were commenting about the improvement in defence, you were embarrassing yourself by criticising Robles for not making any "successful long throws" or enough successful goal kicks ?

Your agenda isn't just obvious, it's unavoidable, other defenders get criticised on here, but I don't see you howling about that

Howard has hardly endeared himself with his arrogance. There's an old Chinese proverb,"He who is arrogant, better not be shite."

Tend to agree with you – I, in fact, jumped ship a couple of seasons ago – did not renew my Season Ticket. Have I missed going the game? Not really, BUT I get just as stressed watching and listening – Live Forum often does my head in.

I really should relax and accept that we are mid table (lower) material especially with the way we are now, I hate to say this, being managed – as I quite like the fellow and think that when he gets his head round the problem, his own stubbornness, he may be quite good.

Whether he is ever be good enough for Everton only time will tell.

I'm not sure what any of us can really add to this conversation any more - it's fair to say we all have a view, and it's fair to say that every one of us raises at least one point that makes sense on some level.

Football is of course a game of viewpoints, which is why it's the game it is - mine may differ from yours, or anyone else's on here but I think that we're all essentially in agreement. The team should be doing better than it is, and though I may appear to be less scathing than many people on here about Martinez, you'll see from my last post that I'm also not convinced and never have been by him either.

For his Goodison baptism against Steve Clarke's West Brom team Everton manager Roberto Martinez said "It's fair to say we were frustrated, if you look at the amount of possession we had and the opportunities we had.

"West Brom were really organised and stayed deep, trying to counter-attack, but we coped with their threat really well.

"We had the chances to win the game, we deserved a win and we deserved three points. We were magnificent off the ball."

Last season's game summarised by the BBC: West Brom had few chances at Goodison Park but hung on and are unbeaten since Tony Pulis took over as head coach.

Everton were in contention for a Champions League place at this stage last season, but following this result they look more likely to be involved in a relegation battle in the remainder of this campaign.

Strangely the referee in charge for the last of those three matches was Mr Oliver.

I accept what you say entirely. We all have our views on Martinez but I think it's fair to say the longer he's here the greater will be the swing against him.

If things continue the way they've been gradually going you may also be calling unconditionally for his head at the end of the season.

I hope for a turn around but fear the worst but I fully accept your right take a bit of a different view at this moment in time.

Everton beat West Brom 2-1 at Goodison on 30 January 2013. The result moved Everton within a point of 4th-placed Tottenham, while West Brom's worrying dip in form continued and they have now claimed just one point from their last five Premier League matches.

Guess the referee.... correct! Mr Oliver 3 out of the last four matches he's been in charge of Everton v West Brom – the other match was refereed by Mr Roger East.

My point was to show the logic in our substitutions on Saturday. It's very easy in hindsight to pick holes, but in my mind at least, the substitutions made sense, so I can't understand the hysteria that they were completely wrong.

I'm very reluctant to jump to your conclusion, that a Martinez Everton can't score against a Pulis West Brom. In the most recent meeting, which therefore must be the most relevant, we scored three at their place earlier this season, with very similar teams on show. West Brom played the same way, especially when they went 2-0 up, but on that occasion, we found a way, largely down to a front four of Barkley, Deulofeu, Kone, and Lukaku.

And anyone with an ounce of football knowledge will tell you that the way to break down massed defence is to get wide and behind them something Mirallas, Lennon Delofeu, Pienaar and Baines are good at except not one of them was on the pitch together at any point in the game.

Martinez is obsessed with playing narrow which is why we have McCarthy, Barry, Barkley, Cleverley, Kone, Osman, and Lukaku all of whom are central players who just end up running into brick walls.

It is not rocket science. Imagine how good Barkley and Lukaku would be if they could play it left or right and get forward for the return ball facing the opposition goal. Nine times out of ten they have to try and hold the ball up, play it backwards or sideways with their back to goal or run into opposition players.

Martinez isn't even good enough for Tranmere let alone Everton.

Lennon wasn't giving us the end product we needed. Why not put Deulofeu on and see if he could do better? I suppose Peters reasons for the other subs are as good as any.

That's not to say I think the others were the best substitutions that could have been made. Far from it.

I wonder if Bob wears brown sandals?

Roberto has already lost the majority of support (a recent survey said 78% wanted him out) and I feel if he came on TW the backlash would be so negative it would not be productive at all.

I am sure he is already well aware of fans concerns and viewpoints but continues to believe he is heading in the right direction.

I think Christine's idea is fantastic.

I sometimes feel MK & LL underestimate their own creation. TW has enormous influence within the ranks, discussions which originated here will often spill into the pubs and clubs, just as talking points at the match will find there way back here. For many TW is the link, especially for the majority who cant actually get to Goodison.

I know through past discussions with players that most read/avoid this site (depending on how they are playing, I guess) the Manager will be the same.

I understand your concerns, this place can get a little hostile and an open forum could could easily slide downhill, but if the questions were vetted and presented in a respectful manner. Martinez just might go for it.

Send him an invite Guys. What's the worst that can happen?

I've just read on BBC sport of Joey Barton's concerns re Roberto's management and the future of our club if he stays in charge. Apparently, his family (all Everton fans) have stopped attending games while Martinez remains as manager. Whether that's a right or wrong thing to do is irrelevant as it simply raises the point, how many more, not so high profile families are doing the same thing?

For me, it's another simple illustration of how Martinez is losing the fans. I feel much the same way. No-one minds losing now and then, it's part of the game, but when losing games at home becomes virtually endemic and the manager appears totally unable to produce any effective counter-measures to halt the trend, then it surely has to be the time to part company before we become perennial relegation strugglers.

Remember that Martinez's win record is only bolstered by his first season's results, when the team in the first half of the season was still displaying many if the qualities instilled in them by David Moyes. We all know how the slide began in the third quarter of that first season, when Martinez's philosophy began to take hold and we climbed into the top four, only to blow our chances with a string of results pretty much like the ones we are seeing now.

From the home defeat to Palace to the end of the season we began to demonstrate many of the faults we are now seeing every week ending up with a Europa League place that perhaps masked the problems that many, not just me, had already identified and mentions more than once, but the apparent success of that season with its record points haul managed at the time to paper over the cracks that were already slowly appearing.

Since then, we have seen all too clearly the narrow-minded, one-way street that Martinez's lack of tactical nous and intractability have led us into. The problem with one-way streets is their lack of an exit at the other end and Martinez has now reached the brick wall at the end of this one, but is unable or unwilling to engage reverse gear to try to extricate himself (and our beloved club) from the situation.

Summing up, poor team selections over a sustained period, playing favourites despite his denials, (Howard and Kone two examples), lack of effective in-game management, incomprehensible in his use (or non-use) of substitutes, and a stubborn refusal to display a shred of accountability for continuous poor results, allied with his inane soundbites which paint a rosy picture as the garden withers and dies around him, all demonstrate his absolute unsuitability for the role as manager of Everton FC.

His overall record as a Premier League manager is hardly inspiring and he would be best suited to managing a club in the lower leagues, but even then, look what he said when leaving Wigan, that he didn't believe he could get them promoted after being relegated. If any statement ever illustrated that the man has no stomach for a fight, that was it. It didn't say much for his loyalty to his employer at the time or the players he'd just helped to relegate.

Somehow, he convinced BK to give him the job of managing a top six club and he has since done a great job of turning that club into a clone of Wigan, fighting to maintain a mid-table position and trying at all times to talk us into believing good times are just around the corner. I think he's been well and truly found out by the fans, and it's almost inconceivable that the board aren't aware of the growing levels of discontent.

As Marie Antoinette once said, being horribly misinterpreted at the time, "The peasants are revolting." In this case however, there's no need for misinterpretation. Roberto Martinez, your time is up, the guillotine is being sharpened and with luck, it won't be long before your head is on the block, and the blade falls, and the good citizens of Goodison Park can go back to their knitting, oops, sorry, back to watching their team playing under a manager who just might be able to instill some pride and some fight into the ranks once again.

Tis time to let loose the dogs of war, but first we must dispose of the great pretender, he has outstayed his welcome!

I would like to see Roberto bring a new team in to support him. Someone with experience who will have his ear. Bringing a team cloaked in failure was a mistake from the start. Roberto is making many mistakes but also building strong foundations.

I look forward to seeing Niasse play this season and the young Swiss lad next season. I also believe that he still has the support of the players. They hint at frustration from time to time, but they still want to play for him.

I'd be happy to join in this, there's plenty I'd like to ask him that journalists seem to shy from.

As for the 'backlash', if people aren't prepared to listen or engage, maybe that says more about them?

Go on, Roberto, join us for a chat!

Surely some of the players feel the same way also. Not only that, a lot of other managers and players from other clubs can see the flaws. We will be even lucky to finish 11th given the usual run of steam from clubs below us at this stage of the season.

Apologies to anyone upset by the final para. That was not relevant to what I was saying – I just stuck it on the end, supposedly in jest and it sounded as such when spoken with the correct emphasis in my mind.

I guess it was just worded in a way that caused it to be misconstrued. It was not intended to be taken seriously and I was not, believe me, genuinely suggesting as it appeared. So – sorry all. My bad.

On to other topics now! Like how am I going to get a ticket for Bournemouth which is only about 2 hours away from me???

Poor substitutions; what does Mirallas have to do to get on? Kone and Osman just did not make any sense.

Surely the deftness and accuracy of Deulofeu's crosses was what was needed against West Brom's defence to give Lukaku a chance. He should have been on earlier. And why not two wingers against a team who show no ambition? Baffling.
Martinez only has himself to blame on this occasion. He has made some excellent purchases in my opinion, but can't sort out the jigsaw. The shine on his brown shoes is starting to be caked in mud.

What do my fellow Blues reckon on this team taking on Bournemouth in the Cup:

Robles;
Coleman, Jagielka, Funes Mori, Oviedo;
Lennon, Cleverley, Baines, Mirallas;
Deulofeu, Barkley.

We need pace & more directness from all over the park, giving us plenty of options as the game goes on.

Oh yeah... Bullshit Bobby OUT!.

We all feel passionate about Everton, it's in our DNA. I seriously believe we can unite and channel that into a force for change. This forum is the forge that can galvanize that.

Bravo, I second that, we all get passionate and frustrated at times. and none more so than now. EFC is like a family to us. and like all families, brothers and sisters can criticize each other. But, we don't like it when outsiders have a go at our family!

Having said that, I think one member of our family has become the black sheep! And I think it's high time now to divorce, or disown him! Gracias y adios, Señor Martinez!!!

Frankly, I would like someone to tell him to have a look at the site and I would hope that he would be perturbed. Of course he wouldn't be because he has an arrogance that suggests he thinks he is a proper coach, in fact a good coach. He is a blight on our club, an utter shameful embarssment, and to have him spew his cretinous shite on here would make me ill.

Contrary to your opinion, I think if ToffeeWeb would offer him the platform to answer our concerns, and to explain his thinking, we might learn something and conversely so might he.

I want the best for our club, so do we all, but our frustrations will only continue until we lance the boil.

I can't add to what has been said a thousand times about him already but I can't see him going. Say what you like about BK but he is pretty loyal to managers; the anti-Martinez sentiment is gathering momentum and hopefully he isn't so stupid to ignore it if it reaches critical mass. I don't support the typical anti-board stuff because it's often just subjective but RM's incompetence is as clear as a bell. I do appreciate the "let's wait and see" stance but this isn't just Everton, it was Wigan too; he surely has no defense now.

If he would just go and look at Leicester and Spurs and get Barcelona out of his mind, they would become Leicester and Spurs if they wanted to win the Premier League. It's about attacking and defensive intensity not flowing attacking football on it's own. RM is good at half the required game and he will never get the other half. While he is here, we are limited to periodic wins and mid-table partial mediocrity (we aren't mediocre but our tactics are).

No matter how long he stays, he always looks like he is occupying someone else's seat!

"I have seen a real consistent performance in our play this season, you can see that in our away form," said boss Roberto Martinez.

"We have a challenge at home and the next five in the league need to reflect being in an advantageous position. Some of the defeats we cannot explain. The performances were dominant but we didn't get the rewards."