Club form could dictate Stones's Euro2016 hopes

Of course, fans pay their money and have the right to do what they like, I know that, and it's no doubt a highly cathartic experience for the fan giving the abuse. Ultimately some self restraint (of the negative shit) can only benefit the team though. The classic frustration/aggression theory is alive and well at Goodison Park.

I await the abuse (just see it as another way to release those frustrations folks). But please, just give this some consideration, is it really that unreasonable?

John Stones and Ross Barkley have had amazing support from the Goodison crowd. What have they done to repay the crowd? Well Stones decided to try and play Hari Kari in front of the Park End in the last minute if a nail biter against Spurs, a game we had done surprisingly well to actually get back into. He actually got away with it that time, however there have been many occasions when he has been caught out with his overplaying.

That can be forgiven. What sticks in the throat is when he has the temerity to have a go at the Park End for being concerned he may have given a goal away. As I've pointed out, if this was an isolated incident, then it wouldn't have been a problem. As it was, he has been caught in possession many times with his casual nature and it was entirely understandable the crowd got edgy when he tried that.

If he can't understand why the crowd responded like that then god help him if he goes to the Mancs or Barca or Madrid and does that and is responsible for losing a game. It will make Goodison seem like kindergarten.

As for Barkley, he has had more leeway than most in the Everton team. He is lazy, gets away with not competing for 50/50 balls, and watches as defenders waltz out of defence with him in their wake.

Now this isn't a post to slaughter two young players. It is just to remind you, Andy, that we are meant to be a competitive team, striving to do our best. We see players either getting away with not putting a shift in or trying to be too clever and resulting in near heart failures when it leads to opposition goals or near misses.

Now none of that excuses abuse (however, where I sit at the ground, there is little or no personal abuse that I hear) but conversely, it also shouldn't mean the crowd should accept mediocrity or players more interested in trying to look like Beckenbauer rather than making sure no mistakes are made and conceding soft goals like we regularly do.

Stones's assertion that crowd abuse is stunting the players form is nothing short of ridiculous and you are more the fool for believing it. The Goodison crowd will extol any player willing to fight for the blue jersey. However, these bad performances haven't happened overnight. It has been happening for 2 years.

The crowd haven't all of a sudden decided to turn and show displeasure completely out of the blue. The crowd have been tolerant for a significant amount of time and finally enough is enough. If the players show they care and leave everything on the field and get beat then fair enough. Sadly they just don't do that and the crowd have every right to show annoyance.

Your generalisation that we abuse the players just goes to show you either don't go to the game and/or are prepared to believe an over-hyped player's poor excuse for playing consistently poor. We are the Neanderthals who don't know how to express ourselves without mindless abuse. How could the player be wrong when the scum in the stands are abusing this poor boy?

Oh sorry, Andy, have I dented your argument by disagreeing with you but not using a stream of 4-letter words? Jeez, we fans can never get anything right!!

He's also very naive if, when he dicks about with the ball in the six yard box at a crucial time in an important game, he doesn't expect to hear something of the ilk of "just clear it you effing knobhead"...

That's football, that's supporters. If it's a bit too upsetting for him maybe he should consider a career in the theatre.

Getting a bit pissed off with some of the excuses coming in the wake of bad performances. Evertonians love their players, they show that love, and have done towards Stones in particular... but if they feel as though one of those players wants away and can't be arsed, or isn't giving 100%, then woe betide them...

As my old mother used to say! Man-up, Stones....(she didn't say that like).

Never have I seen a player written off in three immortal words 'He is lazy'...referring of course to the best midfield player on our books, Ross Barkley. I'm not sure what makes a fan call a player 'lazy', but it seems that when he or she, gets it into their heads, heaven and earth isn't going to make them feel any different, no matter what that player achieves.

Some players can run all day, but offer the team very little else ie the vastly over rated James McCarthy, but because Ross doesn't have it in his locker to 'chase back' or be a real box to box player like Stevie G, he's then 'lazy'.

Do you recall a couple of season's back away at Newcastle, Barkley picked up the ball in his own half and ran the length of the pitch , beating a couple of player's before slotting it in the net, another 'lazy' example of Barkley.

I tell you what, if he ever becomes available for transfer, watch the number of clubs wanting to take him off our hands, despite being a 'lazy' player?

Well if you ever need a job, you'll get one as Martinez's PR guy. You can save Martinez making the excuses for him and his teams incompetence. Let's just blame the crowd this week.

At least with this week's international break you and Martinez can work on next weeks pitiful excuses.

No doubt you are happy to sit there during home games happy to watch the shite we see served up, some of us have greater expectations

What on earth does "Ross just doesn't have it in his locker to chase back or be a real box to box player" actually mean? That he is incapable for some medical reason that he can't be fit enough to do that? Absolute nonsense.

Anybody who excuses his lack of workrate is just giving license to players to do what they want. Oh the defender is running out with the ball... oh let someone take care of that, I just don't have it in my locker to chase him!! I would much rather just do the fancy stuff, I can't be bothered to do the hard yards. Again, absolute nonsense.

Just to highlight this issue. Suarez, Neymar, Messi, even to use your example, Stevie me, all highly talented players who can change the game in a blink of an eye. Do they just canter round not bothering to harass the opposition and let defenders coast past them? No, they are all committed to the cause of getting the ball back off the opposition as soon as.

Now they are not the best tacklers in the world, but they don't have to. They just have to make the opposition make a decision to release the ball and not let them canter past them. Ross doesn't/wont do this on a regular basis. Now maybe its his fault, maybe its the managers fault for letting him get away with it or maybe he is just not fit enough (scandalous enough in itself given he is only 22).

However, the outcome is that when the opposition have the ball, the is a gaping chasm in the middle of the park where he goes missing. That is just too important a position to not do the hard yards. It allows the opposition the opportunity to build attacks without a commanding presence in front of them. Anybody who cannot see this is just putting the blinkers on. Lukaku gets plenty of stick for apparently being lazy, why should Barkley get away with it?

There is an immense player waiting to get out of Ross Barkley. Will he ever realise his true potential under Martinez? Very doubtful. I am desperate for a proper coach to get hold of him and actually get him to realise that potential, hopefully at Everton.

He can be as good if not better than Stevie me, no matter what you think of the RS twat, he was undoubtedly a quality player and a match winner. Letting Ross coast through games is doing nobody any favours, not the club and least of all the fans. I guess I must be watching a different game to you if you think Ross is at his maximum potential.

Like him, I accept that every player cannot have the stamina of a Bally or whatever but there's a big problem when guys no older than 22 feel unable to get in the face of opposing players from the kick-off, and that's our unacceptable reality these days from just a few of our lads. It must infuriate those "lesser" (we're asked to believe) talents who strive to give their all for the entire match.

Stonesy at times seems to believe all he has to do is turn up this season and God knows the faithful have shown him and Ross, and Rom, and Del, huge support when they've been on the ball, literally and metaphorically, but there comes a time when the truth will out, and Rom coming out with his idea of the truth deserves to be countered by the truth others, with decades of football know-how, believe in.

In short, the team are insufficiently physically, and in some young cases, mentally, fit and it shows. They are under the sway of a consistently dire manager. It shows in performance and it shows in results. Rom's a young man with no such need as ours. He knows he's loaded for life whether he's the star in a soon-to-be "big" team or one of the many "stars" getting piles elsewhere sat on a bench most weeks........ask Christian, or Wilfried, or even our Kevin.

The guy is 22 years old,not sure I'm aware of any central midfield players who have reached the heady height's at 22 years old.

What I do know though, is that players of that age lack consistency throughout the season.

I still believe he isn't 'lazy' either, I just don't need to write 500-600 words to justify my opinion about an individual player.

Seems you have made your mind up already.

You are right, you didn't actually say Ross has reached his maximum potential. I just read between the lines in your staunch blind defence of him and made an assumption.

How was Messi, Neymar, Suarez, Rooney, Stevie me, the all conquering Man Utd team of the 90s doing when they were 22 years old? Hmmm just a thought.

Just a thought...

Barkley has the capability to do the same given a decent coach but seemingly just doing it once every blue moon is okay with you? If I didn't think Barkley is capable I wouldn't mention him in such company, but he is and he is wasting his talent at the minute by coasting through games.

If he ever has designs to be the top player that he should be then he needs to start putting in more effort than his meagre offerings currently. But I guess by your assessment, we just let him coast for the time being as, let's face it no one reaches any kind of excellence by the tender age of 22 do they? Hmmm... guess we shall have to agree to disagree on that one.

Your correct in the fact that all those players played for their respective clubs, but Suarez at Ajax won the dutch version of the FA Cup (big deal), and Stevie G never won the much coveted Premiership title, both players hardly were awash with trophies at 22 were they?

That's my point, player's of their calibre simply don't mature at that age. I'd like to know which current Everton players are constantly performing well, week in week out?

I'm simply defending Barkley because of your perceived perception, wrongly in my view, that he's simply lazy.

As I've said previously, the one consistent fact about young players is their inconsistency. I remember Houllier dropped Gerrard on many occasions in the early part of his career.

I remember the same label was put on Le Tissier many times, don't remember him chasing back and making too many last ditch tackles.

There's little to come physically when a footballer is already 22. Some lesser footballers may develop significantly from there in a mental/psychological sense, but the "greats/goods" ain't generally amongst them (Ball, MotM in the 66 World Cup final at 21; Cruyff winning 3 European Cups from the age of 22; Messi, Pele, Maradona..... don't even ask – and I quote the last three because I really believe that Barkley and Stones have that sort of potential but for the muppet hampering their development).

If it's unfair to our lads, I apologise, but nobody with eyes can fail to appreciate, with the possible exception of Vardy alone, that top notch footballers have for decades not established themselves without years of grounding in top-notch clubs before they got there.

Of course our groundings are within the personal control of Bobby Bullshit.... Enough said.

Having just read a comment by Glenn Hoddle about John Stones mentioning how he is struggling because the Goodison crowd, although an audience that appreciates good football, are somehow affecting the young player's performances due to their anxiety. We should be willing to accept his mistakes as he learns his trade. I would have thought it was up to the player to make sure he does the right things at the right time but obviously I am a dinosaur in footballing matters.

I don't think anyone is looking for excuses with Stones. He plays a certain way - it's high risk but there are rewards too. The rewards are the reason that Chelsea were prepared to pay big money.

From what I've seen of Stones and his character, I think we'll see him back to his best and I hope he doesn't resort to hoofing it every time. Bringing the ball out could make him a great; hoofing it might not even elevate him to 'good'.

It's a real shame that Hoddle's views stopped him in his tracks. He's such a good thinker when it comes to football - could have changed the English game.

Would like to see the Barca fans reaction on your comments as you seem to have the gist of what Everton fans want!

I would personally like him to leave and show what he really can do and how he really will improve, just like Romelu. Then you "fans" will have a real gripe.

You look at the top defenders in world football right now. Kompany, Hummels, Ramos, Pique, Silva. Now I cant recall all of the games I've watched of these guys, however I don't see them dribbling around there own six-yard box. If Stones is so good on the ball why isn't he a midfielder?

A defender's job is simple. Defend like your life depends on it. Give a simple ball to the midfielder then get back into position ffs simple simple stuff. But hey it must be our fault that the lad cant defend eh. Martinez got one thing right and that was benching him.

On the Ross debate the lad has everything in his locker but he won't make it to the very top if he does not take control of this team. He should be taking all free kick-kicks, pens, running at defences driving the team on shooting at every opportunity, bringing others into the game and every now and then getting a yellow for a dodgy tackle.

That's the Ross I want but I just don't think it will happen hope I'm wrong.

Because we appear to be run by an idiot who is coaching young players that it's alright not to do their jobs properly, these players errors are perhaps magnified by a dire team performance, and are bearing the brunt of a more general frustration.

Understandable in some ways maybe.

Messing around at the back when it should be in Row z is not acceptable. Gerry is as much to blame also, Chelsea game he should have ran that ball to the corner flag. Not piss about and cost us a goal.

Of course we want our defenders to play great football, but sometimes it means Row Z! A combination of the two will come to Stones as he matures.

These are professional footballers who earn tens of thousands of pounds every week and have an army of advisers and PR agents telling them how to behave and what to say. Nevermind sports psychologists and other 'experts' at their disposal.

Message to John Stones, and any other pampered pre madonnas, man up and DEAL WITH IT. If they're crying about a little stick from the stands how the hell do they think black players feel when they get racist abuse! Do these players sulk? No, they try to play even better and don't let it effect them. (Please don't start with the 'he's just a kid' crap either. These 'kids' have been professionally advised since they were teenagers and he's been playing in front of large crowds for at least 4 years already.)

If you can't handle the heat get out of the fucking kitchen! If people play shit or start dicking about on the edge of the area, of course the crowd will let them know how they feel.

Sorry but if any player is feeling hard done by or 'put under pressure at home' then they can go and find another home IMO.

It's also not exactly coincidence that the crowd is a bit less forgiving with him when he put in a transfer request 6 months ago! We should have bitten Chelsea's arm off when they stupidly offered £37m – that golden train ain't going to come round again.

He may end up eventually being a top defender but it 100% guaranteed won't happen in the near future with Everton.

Sell in the summer and move on. Just fed up with this shite – if a player can't accept stick when he makes a mistake then he's in the wrong career.

Under a different manager, Stones would be a better player. He needs more discipline. He will not get that under Martinez.

They need to grow a feckin' pair and stop whinging.

Behave!

As for Ross, I don't think he is lazy at all, I think he is playing to instruction and being ruined at a key stage of his development by no-marks who think they are football geniuses.

And lastly, on the crowd stick thing, it is more libellous, untrue, rubbish from armchair fans who couldn't find the ground with Google maps.

Stones may get the odd groan or shout from the crowd but that happens to all players all the time everywhere. There are 40,000 in the ground ffs, they aren't all going to agree. "Crowd against a player or the team" ie, en masse, is something I have witnessed before at Goodison and it isn't pretty. It isn't happening now and nothing like that has happened for years.

Hopefully the apathy will end soon against Martinez though, and the crowd can really let people know what they think, since our Chairman still seems to delusionally think he has employed a great manager rather than a total chancer who will destroy not only the club but also formative careers given enough time.

In my opinion, of course.

In the meantime, he should study the journey of a certain Joleon Lescott, and where it led to...

If Martinez didn't give him a telling off after that game he shouldn't be in charge of the club.

As for Barkley, in the Chelsea game after we had gone ahead, a Chelsea player put the ball over Barkley's head and run round him, amazingly Barkley just let him go away from him, his own pride and ego should have made him chase after him and put a strong tackle him.

Praise Barkley by all means, I do, but don't be blind to his faults, the people who criticise Barkley and Stones are helping them by pointing out their mistakes and lack of effort; they might just learn from them.

Problem is our manager isn't the one to help him make the right choices. Martinez's philosophy is play the same way no matter what the circumstances are.

Compare it to Leicester, 2 or 3 players get a licence, but still put a shift in. The rest know their jobs. Ours stroll around making it easy street for the opposition – McCarthy has been really poor, whilst the side has added in Cleverley and Lennon to up the work rate at the expense of guile. And still it doesn't work.

Barkley doesn't tackle and doesn't work back. He's a talented lad, but a complete passenger. Our manager can't see it, and why he continues to leave him on in the most of the last 10 when he disappears, rather than take him off and close up shop.

Can't really give Stones much of a comment. He's hardly played. He's is a weak link at set pieces like the rest of the team bar Funes Mori, but is a talented lad on the ball. Playing him in a back 3 might be an option, but he needs to be playing in the middle, not finding his way stuck at right back.

The key to coaching expressive players is to encourage their flicks and tricks – but EDUCATE them when and where to do it and play the game on its merits. This starts when they are juniors.

I never advocate "just get rid of it" and I ask parents and other coaches to refrain from using such phrases with my players. However, if they lose the ball and it costs us, I explain to the player why it happened and HOW to make sure it doesn't keep happening.

The best way, I've found anyway, is to get your team to play quicker ALL OVER the pitch as this gives you more room and players refrain from "dawdling" on the ball. There will still be mistakes, but the difference is your team will be in a better shape and more concentrated – thus 10 times more likely to win the ball back quicker after a mistake.

I have no issue with all outfield players being expressive and interchangeable, to a degree, but this is not enough to win games on its own. The muck and bones of the game must be addressed and as the old boys used to tell me often when I was a young lad playing senior football, "Use your noddle a bit there lad." Priceless advice and guidance from those who had been there and done it.

Our coaches are rubbish at Everton, talk in riddles and NEVER send the players out with clear instruction. They need a man in charge who gives it to them straight and helps them to eradicate their mistakes. I wouldn't trust our lot with my Under-9s!!

Lots of teams are playing badly at home now; could it not be that sections of the crowds are irrational in what they expect? It's a fairly modern thing for me and stoked up by social media; I preferred it when we were supporters rather than amateur critics.

We can be the 12th man but we really aren't when it's needed, rather than the extra man at times we're like having a man sent off.

Or are you suggesting our match-going fans should suffer whatever is fed to them in silence? The players certainly don't hear me because I don't go anymore but I hope all who criticise those who do are regular attenders themselves... Some chance of that!

I don't really understand what "rewards" there are in game terms in defenders taking high risks in front of our goal? Sure I can see the point in attackers taking risks and losing possession for significant potential rewards but I don't see the same at all at the back when surely the whole point is to minimise risk at all times? Take risks in front of the opposition goal (by the way, we don't – we attempt to keep possession at all costs there) but don't dick around in front of ours. Pretty basic stuff in my opinion.

This is the main complaint I think about John Stones. He takes risks when it is inappropriate to do so. If it comes off, he makes an attacker look a twat for a brief moment, but if it doesn't, he looks a twat himself for a lot longer. It is one thing to showboat when 4 or 5 goals up, another thing entirely in the last minute when it can cost you the game.

I fail to see that that kind of decision is anything more than personal ego gratification and, if it failed, the team writes the cheque to pay for it. I applaud the raw arrogance and talent to be able to attempt and do so but that is a clear example of a failure in coaching around the decision-making process. Something I guarantee his next employer, whoever that is, will make a No 1 priority.

Absolutely clear further evidence to me of Martinez and his crew's inability to turn out a TEAM for a team game rather than a bunch of individuals.

A player can get a balance between running all day and not running enough. True, McCarthy is vastly overrated but Barkley doesn't do enough like pressing which he should as part of a team.

Look at Messi and Suarez who understand that there is another side to the game in addition to all the Roy of the Rovers shit. This is why Hodgson is hard on him and maybe rightly so. He'll never be the player he can be until he adds that to his game and he probably never will with the idiot he's got managing him now.

You're living in a Jumpers for Goalposts fantasy with rattles and blue and white hooped scarves if you truly believe your last paragraph.

Spit-flecked ranting terrified me as a small child in the early 70s and it was far far more apparent when there was standing as like minded individuals congregated and fed off each other.

Even with a change of manager with a "get stuck in" philosophy, I don't believe our Ross would be relishing that type of game plan. He just seems to have no stomach for the 50-50, and it must be a psychological problem from his leg breaks.

Stones will come good again because he is class, he's not a total defender, he's a sort of attacking defender in that he waltzes out with ball so gracefully. If we want players like Stones, we need to accept that sometimes these young players are going to get it wrong.

The Goodison faithful have been much more supportive of Stones and the likes than negative, and that will always be the case. However, when Stones moves on, we should be prepared that he will blame the crowd etc for his drop in form and I would say he is probably right. You can see he has lost a bit of confidence.

I was at the Arsenal match and whilst I didn't boo an individual, I did voice my disapproval at some of the lacklustre performances, but I was told to shut up and get behind the team. I spent the remaining part of the game – most of it – sat in silence because there was nothing to cheer. It was in stark contrast to the previous week, where I and most of the Goodison faithful, were able to shout ourselves hoarse to roar the team on to victory.

Rule number one for anybody in the entertainment business: get the crowd onside. Rule number one for a football team: at least look as if you care about the result and don't give up at the first setback. It seems that the players and the supporters would prefer to be anywhere else rather than at Goodison Park, who's to blame for that?

At least we don't behave like Kopites, demanding and protesting at the drop of a hat, we are better than that aren't we? But here's the rub, by being so passive, we are not helping the club to realise that it has taken a wrong turn, which if it is allowed to continue could be catastrophic in the long-term, but hey who expects little Everton to win all but the odd game here and there?

We should be thankful that the club has knocked a few bob off the season ticket prices and accept whatever the manager and team provide with good grace and a doff of the cap. We should sit idly by, as our better players move on to clubs whose supporters are far more understanding and where they will increase their chances of winning trophies, which little Everton m– no matter how much money they have – are not worthy of.. mostly due to the unrealistic expectations of their supporters. Really?

The only person the crowd should be getting on the back of is the manager. I like to watch Stones play it out from the back and he should be encouraged to do so. Occasionally he overdoes this but I'm sure he will improve on his decision-making.

He has started a number of moves which have led to goals. I think his biggest problems are his positioning and his defensive discipline. Those are things the coaching staff should be drilling him on and improving on but I see little evidence of this.

We should take a leaf of the kopite's book and start protesting. As a collective they have achieved a lot, as a collective we've done nothing other than tacitly accept the tenure of Kenwright and 3 years of garbage from Martinez.

We may not like them but do you think the kopites would accept what we put up with?

On the other hand, I've almost never booed the team or individual players at Goodison. I'm sure it's partly a personality thing, but getting on players' backs is ultimately counter-productive and I want to see us have the best chance of winning irrespective of the "I've paid my money and have the right to shout what I like" mantra.

Of course, spontaneous reaction to particular things (like Stones doing his defensive dribbling) is inevitable and often justified. But does anyone really think that getting on Barkley's back doesn't have a negative effect on his game?

By the way, the comment in the thread that Barkley has been 'a complete passenger' this season ranks as probably the daftest of the year (and the competition is stiff). That would not be counting his goals and assists then?

He's 22, doing very well and improving all the time. He also doesn't seem to have a big head that gets carried away with the odd wonder goal.

Stones has had a poor season in comparison and seems determined to show case his ball control in really daft, unnecessary situations. Yes, it makes the home crowd nervous because they've seen so many stupid goals conceded.

Talking of managers, what about Pellegrini?

The games at Goodison are watched in large parts through silence, because only fleetingly do this team give us anything to get excited about. Even when we do go in front, most of us are thinking, "How long before we concede?" Even when 2 or 3 goals up, this team have done it so often that no fan is confident of winning even with a 2-goal lead.

I've said before over this problem that Bryan Robson broke his leg three times as a young player with WBA and was able to get over the problem, and I realise that everyone is different and react differently to the same problem.

When I first heard of Barkley, when he was 14 or 15, the coaches were going overboard about this kid, how he could run all day, up and down the pitch and come off at the end of training as though he had just started, so maybe it's still on his mind, the injury.

If he doesn't sort it out, he will never become the brilliant player he could be.

When he his on his game, Stones is the player I like watching the most for Everton. Agree that he's got to learn how to find Row Z sometimes, just like his forward passing has also got loads of improvement, in it as well.

But, when you do bring the ball out from defence, you definitely need movement in front of you, otherwise you dwell, and get caught out, and can be made to look very stupid.

I hope Stones regains his confidence, and stays at Everton, because if the right manager gets hold of him, you are talking about a kid who could become as good as anyone in his position.

We have some great young players at Everton, who are on the biggest learning curve of their lives. I think the biggest crime, is that after getting a chance to learn their trade, they will then be sold to other clubs.

I realise that football has never been any different, but hope that with Moshiri's money, things can change, because all the best teams, usually have a few kids of there own.

I think he is a fantastic player and I personally love the way he dribbles out of the box and tries to plays his way out of trouble but I think the relationship with the fans is too damaged for him to stay.

If he plays in the Euros I bet he won't try anything too fancy but will still look the most talented player in the England defence. And then leave by the end of August. What a shame it all ends in tears.

We say Ross doesn't tackle as though it's a weakness of his but it isn't and he can tackle. Dele Alli doesn't tackle as a major part of his game and neither does any other midfielder of their type. Ross will be doing exactly what he is told to by the management and coaches and the idea that he is somehow a big boy who daren't tackle or that tackling like Howard Kendall would improve his game is nonsense.

The game has changed since HK's days, in modern football even defenders and defensive midfielders tend not to tackle unless it is the only option. Tackling is contact and the people who run the game are committed to make it non-contact.

Criticise the lad by all means but not for the myth that not tackling is a serious weakness of his game. He's a magnificent player whose introduction against Germany won England the game. He is a key player for Everton in terms of assists and goals and he is quickly eliminating his genuine weaknesses such as poor decision-making as he nears the opposition goal.

Aaron Lennon does everything you say a player like him should and is expected to do. Ross doesn't even breathe on them, there is a big difference. If you are are happy with the way Barkley plays, good luck to you and him. I'll continue to say what I see.

If I was playing with Ross, I'd be down his ear throughout the game, praising and having a go at him in equal measure, the same as I do when I watch him.

Dele Alli doesn't tackle?

I must be watching a different player with the same name.

Why do you say that, after his introduction, Ross won the game for England? I am curious for the following reasons:-

1. I haven't seen the match.

2. I'm a big fan of Ross.

3. I hate the BBC who are always putting Everton and their players down – no matter what shirt they wear.

4. Deli Alli is flavor of the month and can do no wrong... according to the media.

5. The ratings and press coverage of Ross's contribution were extremely poor (especially when compared to Alli.

6. What is being missed by the media.

I'm not being sarcastic here, I genuinely want to find out and what the game and the respective performances were like, but you can never believe what you read!

http://www.theguardian.com/football/1999/jan/30/newsstory.sport7

Those posters that hear this apparent continual booing and slagging of the players.

Do you actually go to the games??

If so where do you sit??

It's all a mystery to me, maybe I'm deaf??

One major problem: The Manager.

When Barkley came on, the commentators had been raving about Delle Alli all game and for me he did little except for miss two glorious chances.

Ross came on, looked comfortable on the ball, and played simple passes including the build-up to the goal.

It looks to me like Delle Alli is believing his own hype because the lad definitely has an attitude problem.

Ross could do with a bit more bite to his game though, including being taught to press the opposition instead of letting them glide by and passed on to another player. This is symptomatic of the Martinez way where we allow other teams to have the ball instead of getting in their faces.

John Stones also needs to learn when to press a player and when to stand off. I think a large amount of the criticism of the youngsters stems from poor training and advice from our Wiganesque management.

"Stones's assertion that crowd abuse is stunting the players form..."

And Brian @3,

"Sounds to me like Stones is looking for excuses for poor form..."

Am I missing something? What exactly has Stones himself said on the matter. I thought these comments came from Hoddle?

Somehow I don't believe our manager bothers with this side of the game; it does not appear to be in the philosophy and woe betide any player bold enough to speak out. Do I know it for a fact? No, but does anyone here know for a fact it isn't?

That said, I can understand the nervous reaction of the crowd for 'that' moment in the Spurs game when he took an unnecessary risk in his own 6-yard box, so close to the final whistle, with the game still in the balance.

However, I don't condone him as some do for his pretty harmless 'calm down' gesture following that play.

I'll repeat again, John Stones is destined for a mega career. I just hope for a few more years yet it will be with us.

Oh! And for any one continuing to pedal the nonsense that the home crowd is somehow responsible for our poor results, if anything they have been extremely patient and restrained and more often reduced to mute silence rather than continual booing as some claim.

On the question of the home crowd, Just recently, 4 Portuguese players who played their group matches at Goodison Park in the 1966 World Cup, made a return visit to our great stadium, 50 years on since playing there.

This very nice video reports on their visit. Pay particular attention to the words of Antonio Simoes describing the incredible 5-3 quarter-final game at Goodison Park against North Korea in which Portugal had to recover from trailing 3-0 after 25 minutes to the minnows.

Simoes speaks warmly of just how knowledgeable the Goodison Park crowd were in response to events unfolding before them. A trait, I believe, that continues to this day.

Link

Evertonians in the city really took to Portugal in the '66 World Cup. The semi-final with England was scheduled to be played at Goodison Park, but the FA persuaded FIFA to switch it to Wembley.

I've always wondered, if the game had been played at GP, who the crowd would have supported as Portugal was kinda adopted as 'our team.'

John Stones is unique. English football has not seen his like before. The pace of the the Premier League means centre-halves dare not try to play. They know a Jamie Vardy will be breathing down their necks, so they are taught to find "Row Z". (What a fucking horrible phrase!) Or "Clear their lines". (Another horrible term.)

We've got a gem of a player, one who cannot only play, but who is brave enough to do it. Unlike every other big lump in the league, he does not do hoofball. He has probably seen our national side systematically turfed out of tournament after tournament because our defenders launch long balls straight down the throats of more sophisticated defenders who can play.

He's here – right here – not making a name for himself with San Paulo... and we have got people bleating???

I have to rub my eyes when I see some of the garbage written about this boy. He was the greatest thing since sliced bread earlier in the season, Goodison Park roared it approval as he dealt with top strikers with contemptuous ease... but since the exceptionally stupid Paul Merson tried to get a few cheap laughs when giving us his half-witted analysis, a tide of criticism has come Stones's way. How easily lead can you get?

Stones's mistakes have lead to all sorts of goals to listen to some – I would really love one of his critics to put up a list. He has played half a game in each of our last two league games and – although we concede five goals – none of them were conceded when he was on the pitch. If he's a liability, what does that make the rest???

I always believed Evertonians were proud of our tradition "The School of Science" we call ourselves... but some need to make up their minds: What is it they want? Do they want a big dependable solid lump who will hoof it all day? Or do we want a player who may get caught occasionally because he wants to play? Do they want football played to the highest scientific order?? Or the sort of percentage dross we have moaned about for the past 15 years???

Hoddle is basically branding our fans Philistines.... Unfortunately, in some cases, he would be right.

Give me a team full of talented players like Stones, Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barkley any day over a team full of honest, hard working stiffs like Shawcross, Dann and Williams.

The same Glenn Hoddle who used a Faith Healer when in charge of the national side and who got sacked for his shocking views on the disabled etc..

Yeah.. I really listen to your opinions Glenn.. Now kindly pipe the fuck down.

Yes you would think, if there is a "fear factor" or whatever with Ross in tackling, the club would be addressing that; maybe they are already but, as I said, I think Martinez isn't the the type of manager who encourages that type of game.

I acknowledge your point regards Robson, but he had it in his DNA to play football and get stuck in at the same time.

I think we all have to accept that Ross just isn't going to be a player that will put himself about.

The question rather is why there is poor home performance, it's both players psychologically underperforming at home and the crowd helping drag down the squad. People/players both just waiting for something to happen rather than ignore frustrated people.

Jay,

Did you mean to say you don't 'condemn' him for making the gesture?

He will also recognise that whilst his 'best ever' defender is out of the team, his value drops by the day. £25M would be a great price now.

It will be interesting to see how he plays for England. Too many errors in the international spotlight and no top team will be interested.

Darren, it does seem at times that some people would willingly put one nut in Nickey Santoro's vice and scream "tighter, tighter" if it meant they might see a more solid, straightforward defender such as Ryan Shawcross or Robert Huth slothing their stuff in an Everton shirt.

Whilst the old fashioned 'get fucking rid' type certainly have their virtues, I wouldn't be looking to bring one in at the expense of a defender the very likes of which people have spent decades lamenting that the English game seems incapable of producing.

A big, brick shithouse prepared to put his boot through it is ten a penny. If the current manager really wanted that sort of player, he could pick one up with his eyes closed. Thing is though, he clearly doesn't... and even if he somehow, accidentally, did end up with one, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Martinez would soon have him falling about on his arse trying to play a style of football totally alien to his natural instinct.

Look at Jagielka. Whilst not the best in the air, he's still one of the most natural, no-nonsense defenders we've had at the club since Dave Watson departed. Yet, for the last couple of seasons he's looked nowhere near the pure defender he once was. Rather than being left to concentrate fully on the primary part of his game, he's instead forced to perform with the manager's 'possession is paramount' philosophy at the forefront of his mind. It must be like playing under a self-imposed handicap half the time.

With Stones it's slightly different. It's not that he is the 'wrong type' of defender, it's that he's a relatively inexperienced defender currently operating under instructions that amount to 'just do what you want, when you want'. It's not that Stones needs to stop looking to play his way out of trouble, but more that he needs to be coached to do so at the right moments.

His raw talent has been sufficient enough to attract strong interest from the giants of the game. The fact that talent has not yet been honed and expanded upon won't have those same suitors saying 'hang on a minute' and taking a wary step back. It'll just be giving them a little wet patch in their jeans while they rub their hands together at the thought of what a player he could become with some proper defensive coaching under his belt.

It's one thing to see events on newsreel hours and days after the event and quite another to witness it up front and in person with your heart in your mouth!

It's only this season I've realised that as, after 50 years of match attendance, my overseas residence means that I am reduced to screenbites and the sacred Forum. The only thing that's improved is my blood pressure. I no longer 'live' the experience.

I would think John Stones will cost more than £25 million if he moves.

The money is why he will be soon back in the team.

I've heard them talk about the atmosphere at Goodison, but to me that's a factually correct statement rather than apportioning blame. Of course, they'd all do themselves a favour by admitting that they would help the atmosphere by playing with pace and purpose.

The league table and quality of play on the pitch for the best part of two seasons is enough to warrant a change. This 2 +2 = 5 stuff won't convince anyone.

I was about 15 yards from the incident against Spurs, I'd have still enjoyed it if I was 15,000 miles away.

If your heart was in your mouth, maybe you should be seeking a milder form of entertainment.

Crown Green bowls doesn't look too stressful...

As for credit due to Roberto for seeking better defensive cohesion... which one of the five goals and umpteen chances we gave up in our last two league games made you feel he deserves that credit?

I used to think we craved good football and footballers. I'm not so sure these days.

Roberto Martinez reckons his Everton players play with doubt and fear at Goodison Park and has suggested “we need to make it comfortable for our players”. Everton have only won three games at home all season, and when asked about their defensive mishaps against Swansea, he replied: “It happens at home more than anywhere else. I don't think we have that sort of doubt and fear [away from home].

“We're a team who knows exactly what it is doing. We've got really good individuals with fantastic character who care about what they do but our defensive record at home this season is not good enough.

“It doesn't go along with what we are as a team and doesn't go along with what we produce away from home. It's clearly something we need to work on.

“We have six games left at home and they're vital games for us. We need to make it comfortable for our players. We need to make sure we find a way to perform at Goodison.”

At the tail end of the 2014-15 season Roberto was asked if Goodison lost some of its fear factor earlier this season, Martinez told the Echo: “Yes, it is fair to say that and as a football club we need to understand what we are very powerful with and the atmosphere at Goodison is one of the biggest threats we have.

“Going through November and December we were so, so disappointed with our results that we started creating doubts as a football club and we weren't as hostile for the opposition as we should have been, but in 2015 we have changed that. “First, we got in a position where we all felt together and we all felt we were helping each other and now that fear factor has come back.

“We should never lose that because having that is the backbone of any successful team and to that type of home performance we have shown since the turn of the year.” Everton have lost to Crystal Palace and dropped points at home to Swansea, West Brom and Hull this term whilst also suffering a heavy defeat to Chelsea and letting a two-goal lead slip against Arsenal.

Even during a 3-1 win over Queens Park Rangers in December, the Goodison faithful were restless with Martinez's decision to substitute Mo Besic greeted by boos from the stands.

“Everything we do is to make our fans proud and sometimes you can understand the frustration” Martinez added.

“The players and the staff are the first ones to be frustrated when the results are not coming through but the attitude and the character and the pride of representing Everton is in our dressing room. “I do feel there is something special building but we need to be patient and we need to help each other build that winning team."

I would say that Roberto knows that the supporters are important to the players but I also think that he doesn't know how to inform his players that the crowd responds to what they do on the pitch.

Delle Alli had a great game Saturday (he is the real deal I think), as did all of the Spurs contingent, massive respect for their manager too. When Ross came on, he looked very good and, as was clear, he was the catalyst that changed the game and he slotted into the team smoothly and simply.

He will surely play Tuesday and be part of what looks like a very fine team. I see a lot of Paul Scholes in him how he distributes the ball and Scholes couldn't tackle to save his life.

As you say, for the mainstream media it will always be Delle Alli and Spurs but Ross is a true diamond. We have to remember that he came back from a terrible leg break; for sure he's not developed as fast as we'd wanted but he was messed about a lot by Moyes after his one mistake (disgusting for a manager) and Martinez would make Messi a squad player.

Dave@59, constructive criticism of any player is healthy. For me, it isn't about being happy how somebody is playing because they can always do better. I just don't like the insinuation constantly made by some that tackling is a massive weakness in his game. I tracked him all of the way through the Chelsea game; he made 6 or 7 good tackles and he is becoming a true box-to-box player with a very free role.

I will agree that closing down and tackling aren't his strongest point but then it isn't for many, many creative players. That doesn't make it a stick for us to beat him with. If I have a criticism of him, it is that he is prone to switch off for periods later on in the game and giving the ball away, that is a weakness but he is overcoming it.

I agree with you about Lennon by the way, he's one of our best buys ever but look how often Ross is threading almost perfect balls through to him.

That should read "I don't condemn' him for making the gesture.

Thanks for the correction!

We are very good away with a wonderful following that is supportive rather than critical and we are very vulnerable at home. There has to be a connection. My own feeling is that we need to be much more supportive at home.

However, in fairness, you always appear to, at least, put forward your views and back them up. Have to say, I do not always see it how you do, but, hey ho, it is a forum.

Regards Ross, I unequivocally, support you. The days of the bone crunchers in no particular order, Souness, Keane, "Chopper" (I ask you, ffs) Harris, Bremner, even our Peter Reid are long gone and the resultant lack of injuries caused by these types is much reduced. People who live in those times need to stay there.

The modern, fast flowing game is different and though the tough guys have their place, I for one do not want Ross going at a hundred miles an hour into 50:50's with Henderson types unless it is absolutely necessary, and by that I mean in a defensive position, I hope that he is not even in that position. I much prefer he is more forward and doing his defensive duties by closing and harassing opponents, to be fair, from my seat, something he could improve on.

While I am at it, people who compare him to Stevie me, or Robbo, or whoever they have heard of, or seen on MotD, should support our player, our diamond, and appreciate that he is still learning.

Those that say he should stop learning need to have a think, nothing stays the same, you are either going forward, learning, or not, and going backwards.

He gets abuse, I mean abuse from the area of the ground I sit in. When I say abuse, the beauts who give it will know who they are.

I understand he supports Everton, great, like Stones the players will hear the abuse and it is not limited to "Ross you are rubbish", but once another team comes in and offers fame and glory along with the associated money, and he goes, then those honest enough on here will have to hold their hands up or will they turn to another player to pick on while they play the "keyboard warrior" games?

Thanks for reading and also, again, thanks Martin.

I know who I blame for that, but it's only my opinion. I'm sure nobody among the 32,000 Evertonians at Wembley will be on the players' backs either and who knows they may just spark the team into a fantastic performance I hope so.

Honest to God, every time I see our glorious "Away" fans on the tele, for example at Carlisle, it brings a tear to my eye, those people live and breathe Everton and also "support" the club in its truest sense, by spending their hard earned on the cause.

Cheers, Ian

Ian @91, many thanks. I try at all times to justify the points I make and I'm also happy to be challenged as long as it's fair and even to have my mind changed. I'm also very pleased to see that you understand the massive changes that have happened in football since 'Chopper' Harris. :-)

Name me one set of supporters who would be happy watching their team win so few home games in an 18-month period? Moyes's record at Old Trafford was poor but his away record was better, does that mean that the fans at Old Trafford were responsible for his team failing to perform at that venue?

Likewise our neighbours this season have probably won more away from home than at their home ground – do their fans get the blame for it?

Football has changed and the paying fan has become less important than TV revenue but, if anybody deserves their club to do well, it's our wonderful fans.

When Stones twisted and turned against Spurs, Phil, I was there, and never felt the kid was ever in real danger. I honestly think the Martinez tactics exasperate a lot of the crowd, but if no-one wants the ball, what should the kid have done? Kick it in the crowd, when he never really felt under pressure?

I left Goodison that day, and everyone was talking about it, but my only thought was that if Stones had played for Spurs that day, I'm sure Hugo Lloris, would have made a much better angle than Howard, who did absolutely fuck all to help the kid out.

However, I stand by my other comments regarding Stones. We all know he is a talented young man and will probably go on to be a top player. It appears, reading some of the comments on here that he is an untouchable, someone who has so much talent that we should all just stand back, let him do what he wants and if he loses possession or gives a bad pass leading to a chance for the opposition then so be it. Don't say anything, he may leave!!

Regardless of Darren Hind's glowing assessment of young Stones, he has made many mistakes this season. Many have not lead to goals, some have. The incident against Spurs was a culmination of many mistakes by many players which has blighted us for 2 seasons now. We had done remarkably well to get back into that game and if Stones (and others on this site) couldn't understand why the crowd were edgy then god help us.

Allied to that young Stones told the crowd to calm down. Has he not been aware of the calamities that has befallen us this season? It was like he was taking the piss given how dire we had been and how many games we had given away.

There is also the assumption that a player is either a ball-player or a "hoof it into Row Z" player. That is very simplistic. On occasion, a player needs to understand when to just get rid of the ball. Think of all the great centre halves who could actually play, including one of our own, Kevin Ratcliffe. He knew when to play out yet he also knew when to get rid.

Now I understand that Stones is young and needs to learn, but our glorious manager is doing him no favours by not actually teaching him when these moments are. It's all very well for Hoddle, Ferdinand etc to spout utter nonsense saying that he needs to be allowed to play his normal game but they are just assuming that we are just a feeder club who will let him develop his playing side, making mistakes along the way, so a Man Utd or Man City or Madrid or Barca can come along and hone his talents when he is ready. Well to be honest that just doesn't sit well with me. I don't give a rats ass for any of the aforementioned clubs.

I expect each and every player to give their all for Everton. To learn from their mistakes and endeavour not to make them again. It's no wonder we never have any aspirations of troubling the top clubs anymore when fans are ridiculing any fans who have temerity to criticise any of our young players who seemingly don't learn and then take the piss when we get on edge in the last minute or so of a vital game when he fucks about with the ball in our own area. No player is bigger than the club that they have carte blanch to do what they want when they want. We are really struggling for any form, we have done for nigh on 2 years now. Is it any wonder the crowd is edgy?

As I have said earlier. None of this excuses any and all personal abuse he and the other players have suffered. I have not heard any of that from my seat but I guess it must happen given other posters opinions. To shout personal abuse at players is just not necessary. However, again that aside, it doesn't mean that players aren't immune from any kind of criticism just because they have talent.

The team and players have got off lightly considering how awful they have been for 2 years. The manager has, rightly, taken the lions share of the criticism. He has lead badly and done an awful job of guiding the younger players along. But if/when any of our younger players leave for pastures new, do you think any of the so-called big clubs and their fans will tolerate the mistakes and casual attitude shown by some of our players when they are making the same mistakes week after week? It will make Goodison seem sedate by comparison. It's all very well defending players to the hilt forgiving any and all mistakes, but just remember how awful we are. Remember that we are close to a record low points total at home ever in a season and also a record low number of wins at home ever in a season.

Let's start demanding some excellence from our team and players otherwise we shall get what we deserve, mid table mediocrity with players who only play when they feel like, pandered to death by supporters who feel we are so fortunate to witness them in a blue shirt. Shouldn't it be the other way round? Shouldn't it be that they feel so fortunate to actually wear the royal blue jersey? Well it was once upon a time!!

It's just the way it is. You are well outnumbered and that in itself brings out more togetherness than the masses of the home support. Win lose or draw, you just stick together.

Every away supporter is also a home supporter. Unless something happens during the game or someone says something before the game to get the home support riled, said home support will sit back.

There are obviously a few exceptions. This season Leicester fans are screaming from the first minute due to their position. If we were top of the league, guaranteed we would be the same.

I still don't know where these posters who reckon we are booing and continually getting on the players backs sit because I'm not hearing or seeing it. If the managerial clown we have got his team to give us something to shout about, Goodison wouldn't be the mausoleum it has become.

Get Martinez out and it will be like 'Leave them alone and then they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them!!'

What I can't understand is why Martinez seems to love "ball-players" but insists on having McCarthy there, when he contributes nothing in that department.

I won't defend Stones's worst moments except to say that mistakes are part of the learning process. They're still mistakes though, and he's made plenty of them.

He needs to show that he's improving his decision making. A couple of years ago that was the main criticism of Ross. This year it's not so obviously an issue. It's improvement by a guy in his early twenties. It can happen with John too and I hope he finds that right balance.

Lumping the ball every time is as much a sin as dicking about at the back. In fact it might be worse – with a mentality of "I've done my job, fuck what's right for the team, at least when we lose they can't point at me".

If we work on an assumption that Stones is trying to retain possession for the good of the team then he makes himself very accountable. That's not ego – that's bravery and leadership.

Look at Dele Alli. Bags of talent and works his socks off. A quote from Danny Blind after watching the England vs Germany game;

"Dele Alli was very special. He's a good player, technical, has a good shot, but he's also aggressive, he will win a lot of tackles, so he's a special player."

As for Stones. He is great player who needs to be playing now. I feel that in a year or so he will be one of the best English centre-backs we have seen for some time, but not under Martinez.

It is nonsense for posters on here to try and separate the home and away support. Read John's comment again as it is exactly how it is.

Undoubtedly Martinez and his sub-standard management team bear some responsibility for this. Ultimately however, if Stones fails to make the England Euros squad/team he can blame no-one but himself.

After briefly seeming to have shrugged off the disappointment of being told to adhere to the multi-million pound contract that he himself had been only too willing to sign, he has subsequently betrayed us fans (who pay his wages) with his childish attitude and consequent poor performances.

My problem is most of the criticism levelled at Stones simply isn't true. "Stones`s assertions". were made by Hoddle – as John Daley felt the need to point out to you.

It's not about players being untouchable; if a player does something foolish (like Mirallas getting sent off) then he should be slaughtered... so should any player not giving his all... but what is Stones's crime? He told a few panic merchants to calm down?

Lets be very clear here, Stones did NOT make a mistake in the incident that has you frothing at the mouth, that`s another misnomer. He was cool and in command, so much so the frustrated Spurs player resorted to fouling him... pressure off.

I'm also a little tired of challenging people who say Stones has cost us all these imaginary goals to list them. Like you in post 101... they can't!

Funes Mori and Jagielka have been rinsed in our last two home games. Mistakes by one of them lead directly to five goals... so why aren't you exercising your fans-have-the-right criticism of those two???

Of course we have the right to criticise (I'd have been barred from Goodison 50 years ago if we didn't ) but we also have an obligation (especially to younger players) to make that criticism legitimate.

Take Bournemouth FA cup game. They started fighting with themselves knocking a poor woman over...

I think the difference is the team play with more intensity away from home and as the away side are not really expected to get a result. Whereas at home we are.

Now I know some of those failings can be attributed to players in other areas not putting in a shift but few of us have felt comfortable with things 'at the back', whoever was in goal and whether Stones was playing or not.

My first reaction was just that as he's said that he wants to take Wilshere to the Euros even though he hasn't played all season!
Obviously my second reaction was "too right, he does"... And that's how it should be. If you play well, week-in & week-out for your club, you get the chance to play for your country. It shouldn't be down to reputation (Cahill, Welbeck, Sturridge, Lallana) – it should be down to whether you're performing (Kane, Dier, Alli).

Stones hasn't been performing and hasn't been playing so shouldn't be considered at present so he needs to step it up. However, when Hodgson says things like he did about Wilshere and picks others that have been out injured or not performing, it makes the process a farce. After all he didn't pick Baines as he's been out injured even though Bertrand withdrew. Typical International football.

To have two of our defenders in the England squad with our defensive record is a bit of shock as it is...

Read my post properly and you will see the Spurs incident was a culmination of catastrophes by players this season; if you can't see why the crowd were edgy, then I guess we will never agree.

I have stated that all players have been making mistakes – not just Stones – so you can hardly say I am picking on Stones. However, this article is about Stones so no point illustrating every other players faults, of which there are many.

I also stated that I was replying to post #1 when asserting about alleged comments attributed to Stones and I only referred to it once, but I guess in your state of frothing at the mouth and perceived injustice about your favourite boy, in your haste to fire off a reply, you neglected to actually read previous posts properly, and you may see other points about Stones's failings and not "just the crime of telling the crowd to calm down".

I did not say Stones had not made mistakes and therefore I'm not rewriting history – you just made that up. What I didn't say is that he has played for two seasons and there is no "list". The fact that you can't even name one in two seasons of Premier League football kinda endorses that... some liability.

Martinez did not take Stones off against West Ham for "consistently giving the ball away". You've made that up too. In case you didn't notice, we had a man sent off and it was a tactical decision – a wrong one, as it turns out judging by the mauling Jagielka and Funes Mori took.

Stones is not my "favourite boy" – you made that up too. He's not even my favourite Everton defender. I just don't like the nonsense the people of a nervous disposition spout about him.

You go on to talk about "Stones's assertions" – not your own... you were one of those who were doing the alleging.

If the School of Science ever is reconvened, I'm guessing there will be a few empty spaces. The faint-hearted will probably have already enrolled in the School for No Nonsense and Agricultural Defending.

I prefer he stay at Everton and wish he'd be getting more support as a talented young player. How bout a little "Money Can't Buy Me Stones"!

I will personally be very sad when both he and Rom leave this summer.

I can't name an incident? I just named two: in the Swansea and City (cup) games. Throw in the penalty against Stoke and the cast-iron penalty against he got away with against City in the league and you have a few... just off the top of my head.

Darren, you also asked what is Stones's "crime" and also asked what mistakes he made. Now I am not an overly educated person but by questioning people's criticism of Stones's mistakes then I was assuming you are of the opinion he doesn't make them; otherwise, I guess you would be listing them yourself.

Stones made a lot of errors against West Ham and you are summising that Mirallas was the only reason he was sacrificed. Many people at the game were glad he was taken off as he was a liability in the first half and it's still debatable why we lost that game. Yes Jags and Funes Mori had a dreadful last 10 minutes but the game was lost when Martinez brought on an attacker for Lennon, totally upsetting the balance.

You seem to think I'm anti-football. I'm not. I love football played the right way. Again if you had read the original posts you will have seen that I think Stones is a very talented footballer who, like others, is not being properly coached and, in my opinion, believes he is better than he is at this point in his career.

Again, I wasn't alleging, if you read the posts you would know I was responding to a previous post.

I like your opinions, Darren, and like the healthy debate but its a struggle when you don't read my posts correctly.

Steve Hogan, don't just jump on somebody else's post, if you want to have a dig read all the corresponding posts before you waste my time.

Yes, he looks good on the ball, but he's a defender first and foremost, and he has failed to impress in that role. How many times has he and the other defenders been stood like lampposts and conceded goals when there's been dead-ball situations? That's where we've conceded a lot of goals, our defenders never seem to get off the ground.

As far as Stones is concerned, it's been a case of 'look the kings got no clothes' for a few months now... and, of the pair, I would much prefer to keep Lukaku.

I'm not down on the lad, he will become class, but I think too much was expected of a player that was thrust into the Premier League when he was very inexperienced.

Stones in a year or two will prove he's a star, I've no doubt; would I make him a first-choice centre back in our team? No, not at this time.

'I said sell Stones at the last window when Chelsea wanted him.
Of course the response was that I'd flipped my lid.'

'I'm not down on the lad, he will become class...Stones in a year or two will prove he's a star'

Talk about having your cake and eating it, Raymond.

The people who told you you'd 'flipped your lid' are those who were also saying he'd be a star in the future.

Frankly, we didn't need to sell Stones so we made the right decision. He has a lot to learn, but he'll come good under the right manager.

And you'll, of course, be back on here saying 'I told you he was gonna be a star'.

I'm saying at this time I wouldn't put him as first choice in our defence, would you?

Vardy showed in 5 minutes why you should pick form over the perceived old faithful. Rooney should watch the Euros on TV, there is no place for him in that side.

Trouble is that they are all still a bit raw and we need a sturdier supporting cast. Ultimately the stats don't lie... but I wouldn't write off Martinez just yet. Patience is nearing an end.

Don't be surprised if we revert to 3 at the back on the weekend so I expect Stones to get his chance... he needs to be playing. And the players need to learn to close down for the whole game while playing with the intensity require to win games and see them out.

So what's your opinion? Not your attempt to be a comedian.

How the fuck could a man with so little talent get away with so fucking much? Un-fucking-believable!

Dave gave you an example but here is another of not just one but two goals which can be attributed to Stones. Stoke in December and this is from our own matchday report, so not my words:

" Not for the first time Stones, who, frankly, had an uncharacteristically awful game, delivered a forward pass straight to the opposition and Bojan returned it with interest, a through-ball that dissected the home defence and put Shaqiri in the clear. The Swiss audaciously clipped a half-volley on the run that sailed over the hapless Howard, and spun almost in slow motion into the top corner of the American's goal."

(And:) "Stones looked to have got a decisive knick on the ball with his out-stretched leg to deny Arnautovic as he tried to power towards goal. Clattenburg initally seemed to agree but after a moment or two's hesitation he pointed to the spot and Arnautovic clattered it down the middle with Howard gambling to his right."

This isn't only about whether he should clear the ball or play it out but rather there are numerous other examples over the last two seasons where Stones left a huge gap by being too far forward or too wide, left his man, lost his man, or just plain didn't jump and contest the cross. You can look them up or just continue to ignore that they exist, because that suits your argument.

Whether he clears to Row Z every time is not the point; the decision-making and lack of other skills needed is. He doesn't mark well, doesn't clear the ball when he should, and (West Ham game aside) doesn't jump to contest crosses. In the same Stoke game, he actually pulled away and ducked from the ball and the Stoke player on a cross. Stones's best tackles are made like a midfielder coming back and making desperate slides. These look good but are the result of being out of position. They also lead to penalties (see above).

Currently, going forward he looks very good, like a midfielder with the ball at his feet, but he does not use the actual defending skills needed for a centre-back. Most of these are learned before you reach 18. If he learned them and is not using them, why? If he didn't learn them, then he is not a great defender and again one must ask, why he didn't learn them?

This is apart from the "defensive system" used by Martinez which puts additional pressure on the back four and further exposes Stones's deficiencies. He needs to move on or we need a coach that will make him play like a centre-back or move to midfield.

Erm... that it's a much higher form of wit than slapstick?

Actually to answer your question properly, I suppose it depends on who 'they' are...

If it's an intelligent 'they', they'll probably think in the right hands it's a great way to make a point. Or that it gave Oscar Wilde his reputation. Or that many of the most memorable characters from politics, film, TV and literature are memorable because of their sarcasm.

Of course a less intelligent 'they' would be different. They would probably resort to a parrot-fashion repetition of some unproved, unfounded and lazy mantra along the lines 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit' (an adage no doubt conceived by someone regularly unable to produce a comeback).

Anyway, never mind what 'they' say; what do you think?

As for my opinion on Stones, it's like my opinion on Martinez – I've already given it on other posts recently – Link – and don't feel the need to repeat it every 15 fucking minutes.

Agree completely, although in the case of Robson, I always thought there was a lot of truth in a comment George Best once made (during a pundit period when he was cleared-eyed, sharp and off the ale).

'Robson has great energy, gets goals but he doesn't know how to tackle properly.'

I thought he was spot on, much of the last 5 years of his (Robson's) career, he seemed to spend recklessly flying at opponents with his studs on show (then he'd curiously berate them as they lay in a distressed heap).

Yes I see the one where your attempting to take the piss out of yours truly, plus the follow up. I did happen to post the views that Stones was not living up to the hype months ago and we should sell at the fees that where being quoted.

I'd say that view was correct at the time.

I always though that the sarcasm cliche did not refer to the quality of humour rather than the moral associations. Sarcasm is therefore 'low' because it is usually belittling – not because it is unintelligent or unhumourous.

But can you not see a recurring theme here, ie a contributor stating that you don't quite tell the truth?

I just don't need a 600-word diatribe to recognise it.

So what role was he performing when he impressed enough to have Chelsea desperately trying to chuck over £30m Everton's way and a large number of supporters opposed to a sale at any cost?

If just 'looking good on the ball' is worth that much alone, then I'd love to know what those circus bears cost. They balance on the bastard whilst wearing cute little hats, shirts and even have a go at spinning plates and shit.

Link
"Do you really think I give a toss if Ringmaster Robbie say's you're the best thing since Gentle Ben and you have to perform to his instructions in a big fucking circus? Bears should be out protecting their cave and going absolutely radge at people like the one out of The Revenant......Don't wave your paws at me in a clumsy 'calm down' gesture, you posing prick"

As for touching a nerve, not really; I just don't have patience for people who want to take uneducated cheap shots without them reading each and all posts. I can quite happily have a healthy debate about differing views regarding our club but for you effectively call me a liar, "don't quite tell the truth" is a bit much as is criticism of how much I write. If you feel that superior then just bypass the post without trying to score cheap points.

Just a thought.

My take on him is that, at this time, it seems foolish to make him a starting defender. His form prior to him being dropped was not good enough.

Its a tricky situation for Martinez, but I think for now he should stick with Jags and Funes Mori.

I appreciate that it's not doing his Euro chance or his valuation any favours... and, as I say, it's a difficult decision for the manager.

I did read your post, but you haven't read mine.

I said two seasons of "Premier League" football, I recognised you were talking about mistakes in cup games where weakened teams were played or when he moved out of position, but I'll give you those gladly... you clearly can't name any in the Premier League let alone a list.

I don't claim Stones doesnt make mistakes, he's a risk taker and has made hundreds. What I do refute is the constant claim from those of a nervous disposition that he has cost us lots of goals with his style of play and that he is a liability. It's utter nonsense.

Don't forget, Stones has played with Tim Howard behind him for his two seasons, seasoned internationals have struggled with that.

Your clam that many people at the West Ham game were "glad to see him taken off, as he was a liability" made me laugh out loud... did you not see what happened after that?

Jim Hardin

You need to take another look at the goals against Stoke. Stones did not pass straight to Bojan. He actually did what the faint-hearted are screaming for him to do – launched it. Bojan picked up the the defensive clearance from the edge of Stoke's area – a simple look at YouTube kinda makes a mockery of your claims.

Yours is exactly the sort of false claim I am talking about.

Wanna try again ?

It wasn't 'correct', it was just your (to use your word) view and the fact that you believe your own view doesn't make it anymore correct than the view of the person who believes the complete opposite.

So to then add 'told you so' with the same certainty as one might had they informed us yesterday 'the sun will rise in the morning' is practically begging for a little gentle sarcasm.

Continuing.

Re my link, you add – 'Eugene, the thread is about Stones, I don't see any contribution on the subject from you. The link you gave was more about your views on our full backs!'

Yes, rather than mentioning any other player than Stones, I mentioned our full backs as (in a natural progression of a discussion starting with Stones) I believe them to be at least as problematic as our centre-halves. My (also stated) opinion was that, though a close decision, I'd go with Funes Mori (nb: over reintroducing Stones) until the end of the season as I believe/d there was a better chance of getting a couple of goals from him.

I realise that this opinion wasn't as insightful as 'he's up his own arse' or 'he believes his own hype' or 'sell the nob-head' but there it is.

Sam – 'I always though that the sarcasm cliche did not refer to the quality of humour rather than the moral associations. Sarcasm is therefore 'low' because it is usually belittling not because it is unintelligent or unhumourous.'

Moral associations?

Eh?

Well ok maybe, but as the cliché doesn't come with terms and conditions attached, we'll never know for sure. So I'll go with my own notion that it originated from someone lacking the wherewithal to come up with a decent response to a point that had hit a nerve.

Anyway, I believe if you entirely remove sarcasm from the armoury, you might as well put down a mat with 'Dolts and poltroons welcome, please spout ill-considered opinions – guaranteed no comebacks.'

I hope he gets more game time and gets to play in the Euros, enhancing his value before he leaves.

I'm not trying to make out he rubbish – far from it; and as for constant claims that he is consistently costing us goals... well, this is the first time I personally have highlighted his mishaps and I'm certainly not of a nervous disposition.

We all want the Blues to do well and they clearly aren't and haven't done for a good while. Defensively they are a shambles and I'm afraid John Stones has to take a share of the blame along with Coleman, Baines, Funes Mori, Jags etc. The fact that this article is about Stones means that he, unfortunately is being highlighted. If we had this discussion about any of the other defenders, then I guess the tone would be somewhat similar.

The fact that a lot of people are trying to exonerate him (yeah I know you have said he makes mistakes) and the fact that people are vehement he hasn't cost us goals (imo he has... along with others with his overplaying) means that others like myself will refute that as I have spent so many weekends dismayed at how we have ballsed up so many games.

We will have to agree to disagree about the West Ham game and I put my reasoning in my last post.

John Stones, as I've already said, can be a fine player; however, given how frail we are defensively and how easily we give away goals, it is remiss of him to overplay when we should be more defensively aware, given our current malaise. A not unreasonable request from a concerned fan from a team that is wasting yet another league season.

It affected his game, he made mistakes and his confidence suffered. <{P>He wasn't the only one: Howard should have been dropped earlier; Funes Mori against West Ham was abysmal; and Martinez's tactics, three-man defence, and playing him at fullback, was totally wrong, and he ended up as the scapegoat.

Interestingly enough, there was actually a study undertaken a while back, the findings of which indicated sarcasm makes you smarter. It was found to encourage creativity and stimulate the generation of ideas, whilst promoting insight and innovative solutions to problems.

This was so for both those using sarcasm and those on the receiving end. By comparison, a control group of cloth-eared gits and those participants who were privy to only 'sincere' comments, were found to be shockingly pish at problem solving.

So, rather than belittling and 'low', you could instead think of it as being 'beneficial' and a catalyst for cognitive growth. I mean, how the fuck else do you think Baldrick ended up on Time-Team?

We'll have to agree to disagree. I realise now you were talking about the penalty against Swansea. I blamed Howard myself for not moving toward the ball, but It was Stones who played the ball back to him so I guess that's open to interpretation.

I still think I Stones is getting very unfair criticism. I'm sure I can name more mistakes from just about every other defender, but people are going by perception when discussing Stones.

The safety-first approach other defenders have adopted has been far more damaging... IMO.

I see you couldn't resist without a parting shot of reference to 'dolts and poltroons' as if you are some superior intellect. If you can't discuss a difference of opinion in a civil manner, I would suggest you don't bother.

I think he was left out to give him a break at a time when I believe he has been struggling mentally rather than there being any doubt about his ability. He is being blooded back but unfortunately we've played a back 3 as a result. We don't do back 3... just like Wigan didn't.

He is class and he'll make it to the very top. If you think about it, Martinez couldn't drop his skipper and Funes Mori is proving to be undroppable, even with a clown as coach.

Rather than brown shoes, I reckon Roberto should wear clown's shoes.

Maybe we should start a thread on the shortcomings of all the defence and not just one individual. I'm quite sure that others would get a far worse panning than Stones has had.

I did watch the game and went back again and if you are claiming Stones is not culpable, then you win the blind mouse award.

I said it at the beginning of the post. Not my words, but taken straight from the article. Still, I understand your superior ability now. Ignore all facts, dismiss others, and blame Howard (as I noted you did in your response to Dave) or someone else. When does the out-of-position, dicking-around-on-the-ball, centre-back get his share of the blame Darren? When?

To excuse Stones's performances is comical. You basically in a response indicated it is Howard behind the centre-backs that is causing them to make mistakes? Yet you then want Stones to play the ball back to Howard who isn't good enough in your expert opinion?

Does that make sense that, if the centre-back has no confidence in the keeper, that he would play the ball back to him when both are under pressure or would he then just kick the ball out to safety less than 15 feet away? which is it Darren, you cannot have it both ways?

The fact is when a centre-back fails to clear the ball, when and where he should, and it stays in the third and a goal gets scored, are they not at least partially to blame?

You asked for a list of games; I gave you one from just a few months ago. You then chose to blame Howard for the second goal. Take off the Stones-coloured glasses Darren. I will add another for you. England versus the Netherlands. The announcers called Stones's slip a catastrophic error. They seem to be under the impression that Stones falling or slipping was a cause of the penalty resulting in a goal. Not my words again.

I can't help laughing whenever I read your posts. You didn't give me an example; you tried... but you failed. Anyone who can be arsed can take a look at the Stoke game and see how desperately you are clutching at straws. The ball was headed out of Stoke's defence and travelled 90 yards via Bojan... yet it was a "Stones mistake"?

Now just for a minute put down your "soccer" manual... stop reading about successful long-throws, and I'll educate you about proper football.

John Stones did slip tonight, he did what every centre-half in the world has done at some stage; luckily enough, he did his one in a meaningless friendly. However, there was one moment of sublime skill (besides the England goal which he was instrumental in). It was when Stones came sauntering out of defence down the wing, looked up and threaded the best pass of the match through 12/13 players right onto the boot of Walcott. A fully fit striker would have scored with his eyes shut.

How many centre-halves in world football could have done that ? ... Here's a hint – don't think plural.

BTW; I have never wanted anybody to give the ball to Howard... not ever. I didn't need an "announcer" to explain the consequences, I just kinda knew...

Either way, I'm a fan of it like Oscar himself but do think it often has a cruelty to it.

Don't you find it a little strange that at least two people have questioned the validity of your 'posts' in such a short space of time, both on the same theme, ie, misrepresenting people's views in order to prove a point or give your argument some legitimacy?

Just another thought.

As to it having an element of cruelty to it, well maybe cruelty is slightly overstating things (certainly in the context of TW) but if it is the case, fine with me.

Certainly imo valid for people criticising players as though their criticism is fact, then getting all hurt and self-righteous when their criticism is criticised.

Think of your all time favourite ball playing centre back.Would that centre back try to take the forward on when he was last man?

I have said it for a while now.John Stones does not,at the moment,have the defensive awareness and ability to be a top class defender. He would IMO make a top class holding midfielder.

Anyway, no matter. I will tell you one last time, so pay attention this time. Darren managed to pick it up so if you pay close attention you may too. I was responding to the first post who alleged that Stones had made comments. Just go back and have a read, all you need to do is hit the page up button!! Whilst responding to that I took it as read that Stones did make those comments. Maybe that was wrong of me? Possibly. However, it wasn't the main crux of my point anyhow. Maybe you should pull up the first poster and correct him? Oh wait a minute, that doesn't support your argument so bit pointless really.

So to your argument. Not entirely sure what it is. You like Barkley and Stones and they can do no wrong (I think given how much you've chased me on this post alleging I tell untruths) and erm that's about it. No reasoning, no healthy debate... ah yeah that's right, you can't be bothered to type more than a few words as you constantly have a go at the length of my posts.

Leaving yourself open to debate is what most people do on this site, that's why we have healthy DEBATES!! Well maybe if you had any kind of opinion other than just point-scoring then you may be able to join in at some point when you feel confident enough.

Just a thought.

And despite your arrogance, I will try and pay attention.

This is what he needs to focus on, not beating 3 men bringing the ball out from the back or hitting a 50-yard worldy to set up the strikers.

He needs to get back to basics and stop believing his own bullshit.

You are defender, son, so bloody well defend.