Mayor: Everton can finance new stadium

On the location. It has to be a docklands/waterside location. It will give the club a huge profile and branding boost if the stadium is the first football ground that visitors to the city will see.

Exciting times indeed!

As to location, its got to be the docklands. I was massively against Kirkby and out near the East Lancs road is equally as bad. A grand stadium for a grand old team, sounds great to me.

Oh and Mike Hughes #1, another great bonus as you said, the RS will be spewing bile with envy. As I say, win win!!

I imagine the preferred option will get wrapped in red tape if LCC aren't given a slice

This pads out even more the earlier report from Joe Anderson.

Yet more building evidence (whilst also acknowledging NOTHING has yet changed at Everton) that Farhad Moshiri may just prove to be the serious game-changer we have been longing for.

But why whenever are we discussing things Everton do some of us always bring our neighbours into the subject matter?

But as its been mentioned - I wish we could do what they are doing - have you seen the monster stand they are building? Talk about dominate the skyline - you can see the fucker from New Brighton.

My preferred option is to develop Goodison but nobody in authority seems to want that do they?

I suppose I am an old fogey now but a sensible and progressive development of our home would suit me fine. I know the old lady is fading fast but many on here have put forward pretty realistic plans to show it could be done!

The extra revenue that putting the ground on the waterfront would be huge for the city though wouldn't it? Probably a million matchgoers over the course of the season, many of whom would go out after the match, use hotels, restaurants, pubs etc. Build it out in the sticks and it'll be in / out / bugger off.

Hopefully there's enough in favour of the waterside plan to pull it off. But then is it going to be a compromised plan if in the city but a monster outside if the council are going to give us the land....?

Why put a negative on an essentially good news story?

Quite clearly Joe, a bluenose himself, and the club are in extremely close communication over this matter.

It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that it was mutually agreed by all parties that Joe would be the one breaking the news.

All part of the negotiating game. Allow elected politician, looking to be re-elected, look good in the eyes of his electorate.

Further down the line, Everton call in favour to said politician to smooth the way to their goal of building a new stadium.

Not everything related to the club needs to be treated with suspicion.

Either way I am sure the design will be top draw and the ground will be located within the city limits . Here's hoping the docks but great news either way.
The last 7 days have been the most positive for a long time.

Just need a top draw manager unveiling tomorrow now !!!

Maybe (as people have already said on another thread) if we choose Crocky, it will be down to Farhad, but if we go for the docks, then his major Russian friend might just be coming on board?

Garry (#8), that's why I'm worried Anderson, has chosen to speak.

Pat (#15), I've stopped taking the kids to New Brighton, because of the new skyline, but hopefully it will only be a short-term thing!

I wish we could do what they are doing - have you seen the monster stand they are building? Talk about dominate the skyline - you can see the fucker from New Brighton.

Great! They'll be able to see our new place from there. (snigger)
Perhaps when they are at home we can have a giant inflatable one-fingered salute rising from The Dixie Dean Arena on the banks of the royal blue Mersey.

And our new chant :
The city centre's all ours, the city centre's all ours.

Just opened a bottle of IPA to celebrate.
Only at Everton can things seem so much brighter now the season is over ......

Maybe the council option is just in there to show Peel we have other more convenient, lower cost options and they don't have us over a barrel.....

Or maybe the Peel option is in there just to show us how much the dream would cost compared to what's realistically affordable....

Or is it that Croxteth is nailed on but they know if it's put on the table alone it'll get rejected....but make it a beauty contest, show why the docks won't work and we are left with only one option left so we take it.....

Talk about making our new managerial appointment yesterday's news!

The alternative could be a potentially world class location. I just know what I would bet on given the calibre of the personnel making this decision.

Weren't you the subject of transfer window speculation a couple of years back?

Did anybody know we were all trying to outbid each other for someone who is...in his early 90's? At the youngest...?

"Way out of the city in an area that you really wouldn't want to leave your car in, lousy public transport, with absolutely bugger all of interest to visit, view, eat or even drink in and by the way don't forget to wear your body armour."

Well of course you could be describing Liverpool 4 which has been our home for 138 years.

I'm sorry but it makes so much more financial sense to the city and the club to go the docklands. I don't feel Croxteth would raise our profile as a club at all, new stadium or not. Let's have a massive monster of a stadium on the docks that all the city can see. Imagine just the increase in revenue from stadium tours from tourism alone?? Huuuuuuuge potential!!

Still... it could be worse, he could've posed for pictures digging a hole in Walton Hall Park!

Railway stations?? Well it's about a 40 min walk from the Merseyrail station.

Pubs?? Well it has pubs, probably best described as 'of the traditional variety'

Buzz?? Well that's one way to describe it.

Look I love Goodison Park, but to get all shirty about Croxteth as a destination when you are from Walton is a bit strange, even if you do really want one of those dockside apartments.

How can you know it makes more financial sense?

You don't know what the relative costs, the relative time frames or the potential revenues.

Unless of course you would like to share your assumptions?

It's an attraction just as an imposing building and the turnover in money for the local area is massive from whatever event they put on there.

Everton should not underestimate the potential the docks Stadium has, if it's possible, do it. They won't regret it.

C'mon Farhad make it reality! Everton need it.

Geez when I saw the name now also a blast from the past!

Its got to be the Water Front, the other site is just residential and industrial, LCC will want the Money and Visitors in the city centre.

Transport is a relatively easy thing to sort out if the site is the right one.

The important thing is the commercials.

Look if it works of course I would like a marque city centre location, I just suspect the numbers will suggest a different thing.

Looks like Croxteth, with everyone else though in wanting the docks.

I'd happily stay at Goodison if they a) take every post away b) improve leg room c) improve concourses. Doable? New stadium it is then.

Kev can't track back because he's got creaking knees and was apparently born during the First World War.

I am just sick and tired of seeing him in Hello magazine with his new 30 year old missus while living it up down the British Legion. Always flaunts his fame.

On second thoughts: wasn't he a red?

Waterfront will be immense and could easily put us on a powerhouse standing, I think securing that location will easily see mr moshiri get his outlay back if he wanted to aswell so win win all round

It's such a relief to have positive news not just bullshit to hold off the fan base

I drive past the Stonebridge Cross site regularly and although there would be supporting leisure facilities built, it wouldn't come close to a city centre location. For instance, the value of any hotels / accommodation would be hugely more lucrative for any developers in a city centre location than they would in Stonebridge Cross.

It's a no-brainier for me, unless Peel want to rip-off the club by placing a premium on the site because they know there are very few central locations available to build a stadium.

Just an obvious question. Who are you going to sell a 50000 seater stadium located in Trafalgar Dock to?

What a difference a week has made.

Potentially though, I would have though anything closer to the waterfront / city centre will have a better chance of success compared to Croxteth.

Moshiri alone certainly doesn't. Not unless he divests all his holdings for cash and goes all-in on the Club. He could, of course, but I guess that unlikely.

Usamov's business is steel; Russian steel. His personal wealth has dropped 5 billion over the last 3-4 years (The poor dear). Russia isn't going to get another Olympics/World Cup exacta awarded again. Who's buying his steel then in that crumbling economy?

But the big-league footy industry in England is booming. Why wouldn't he move a chunk of dough into investment in Liverpool real estate? He and Moshiri have been business partners for 20 years at least.

And here's the city's Mayor confident of Everton's future a few months after publicly mocking Elstone's comments about the future.

Things are rising so fast you could almost get the bends.

But, yer never know! May just be a bright new dawn after all! If we get the docks, I'll go the game in my 'pants' and throw a chunk to charity (worked for Lineker!)

Ok so why is a club with a new ground in Trafalgar Dock more attractive than Croxteth?

I was looking at retractable seating systems and came across this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURGnpwOR3I

Pretty dam amazing.

Graham #54 - Your right Money talks, So put your Business Head On and as they Say " Think out side the Box"

Croxeth : Is a logistical nightmare for Visitors for any event. So Money that the local area would (LCC, Local Business and Everton) would be on Match days this is a "locked ROI"

Water Front : you have Match days, festivals , athletics (golden League etc) , Go cart events, Bloody Top Gear the list is endless
ROI is High as the stadium can be used year round and when Everton Play away from home. This means that the local area and the city will benefit from increased revenue stream from visitors.

If any Investor is going to Invest in a project which one do you think they would choose?

So for me it has to be Trafalgar Dock as the preferred location and as it's to good a location to miss out on. I wouldn't care too much if the Kirkby cowshed was built but I would prefer something that looked like a white UFO with a retractable roof.

That may well be the case, which is why I assume any decision will be based on a financial evaluation.

I understand the natural fan reaction is to favour a high profile waterfront location, that would be my preference.

However my property experience makes me think an out of town option is likely to work better. And I think Moshiri is here to make money not pump up his ego.

It has to be the riverside stadium although it can get quite windy at times. It would have to be a bowl type stadium.

But if they have spent more and the financials are less attractive then not neccesarily so.

Look I don't know the numbers, I just suspect Croxteth will stack up better financially.

Therefore before I pin my colours to any mast let's see what the man who is going to sign the cheque thinks.

If Graham is in property he should know about ROI.
Buy to Lets are completely different from Commercial Property.
If you was going to build a hotel in Liverpool where would you put it?

"If any Investor is going to Invest in a project which one do you think they would choose?"

I don't know, I know they will take the most commercially viable option, I suspect Croxteth will be the preferred one.

Cost to Build? ROI? Long Term or Short Term Returns? Will the Property be put into a REIT?
Bottle necking income? Or expanding income possibilities?

When starting a project you don't just look at the cost to build you look at the long term ROI unless you intend to Flip even then out of the 2 The dock is the better investment. You could build a world class stadium on the outskirts of any City and a bog standard in the city. The City stadium will always be worth more because of locality. I used to sell off plan Student accommodation to investors, Guess which properties in the same city sold for more and faster? You guessed it the accommodation closer to the university.

One thing which I think could be crucial is Moshiri has just left a club with a state of the art stadium built in a very built up area of London. Having invested a year after they moved (interesting?) I wonder what his view is on the Emirates and it's location?

I wonder if he'd prefer it there or on St Katherines Dock, overlooking the Tower of London, Tower Bridge and the Thames? Or maybe in a field near Stevenage?

I'm not 'in property' although I once managed to blag a job as Director of Property for a major retailer.

I do know about ROI however and your example about locating a hotel in Liverpool is a good one to discuss.

So if you were looking to locate a hotel in Liverpool you would look at a number of things to determine your ROI.

What's my turnover?

What are my operating costs?

What's my capital investment?

It may be that a location in the city centre gives the highest turnover but when I look at my costs and investment give me a lower return than an alternative scheme with lower turnover but lower capital and costs.

In the end we are not privy to those numbers, however the investor will take the decision that works.

I'm definitely not a business guru, I like to think of myself as a chancer who has managed to fool a lot of people for a long time.

But I do know my way around a P+L and balance sheet.

You know as well as me that Retail is a different animal again as people will travel to a Cheshire oaks outlet or Bluewater for a day out.
Cheshire Oaks Had 2 nightclubs when it opened both have now closed even though they built a hotel.

This is a football stadium on each event it could have 50000 people plus, You would want this as often as possible, so you are going to look at the investment plan which would you choose?
I stadium that a drive away or somewhere that easy to get to and people will spend money stay the night spend money in the city? Spend money in the local area (your rent paying Businesses) If it just a stadium on the outskirts people will go the event and come home.

Because enough income couldn't be generated to sustain them.

Just pick the one that will generate more income than the cost to finance and service it.

Or redevelop Goodison.

I used to sell Shadow Capital allowances into these companies, Which strangely were allowed to be a PLC too.

I feel your pain.

At the end of the day money talks and billionaires can sniff where the best deal is overall. My money is right next to the Mersey. It might cost more but as they say-

Location, Location, Location!

Not sure what your explanation of REITs does but you sort of get to the nub of the financial assumptions in your previous post.

Does a stadium on the Waterfront versus one in Croxteth generate more revenue for the football club?

I suspect they probably do, not from me because I'm going one way or the other.

Does this extra revenue compensate for the increased capital costs and operating expenditure?

I'd be surprised but if it does, happy days.

Anybody that claims they have the answers to either of the above questions are just kidding themselves. They just have a view like I do.

The land would cost more but the building would be worth more.

I don't understand.

It depends on the deal that's done. If you take a lease on the land, and develop the site yourself the opex would be higher. Certainly that's the model Peel have used. Keep the freehold and lease out.

But it's a moot point. Whatever way you look at it the total cost of a stadium in Croxteth will be lower than on any waterfront development.

It's whether the upside in revenue makes it worthwhile that is the crucial factor. We will see because I do suspect for the first time there is something in the offing.

It seems that LCC want to make a serious move for the 2026 commonwealth games, if Everton built on the waterfront with no athletics possible in the stadium, this would mean that LCC would have to build their own stadium for games which would become a massive white elephant.

Peel haven't started the waterfront development because their has been no demand during and since the recession. A new stadium could be the catalyst for it all.

Throw in some retro fitting athletics facilities, then this would get LCC on board and everyone could be a winner.

Sounds too simple!

I don't know just a guess. Apart from the initial cost of the land and build, the actual operating costs would be similar? The turnover similar?

I just think it would be financially more beneficial for both the Club and the City to have that waterside location.

And I know sweet f a about property.

Peel haven't started the waterfront development because there has been no demand during and since the recession. A new stadium could be the catalyst for it all.

Throw in some retro fitting athletics facilities, then this would get LCC on board and everyone could be a winner.

Sounds too simple!

It's not the Kings dock but its probably the next best thing. Miss this chance and it will forever be unforgiven. As Chairman Bill Kenwright has a chance to redeem his biggest failure by influencing the decision. He has the opportunity to leave a legacy after all. It just better not be Croxteth! (an I was born there!!) too close to old wounds to be viable politically.

Given the choice it has to be "Trafalgar Park" scene of many an epic battle?

What a waterfront view for Liverpool, for a Commonwealth games bid. If we are to leave Goodison Park then an iconic location would suffice.

What makes you think it is a more viable scheme than say Croxteth?

So, Trafalgar Dock, potentially iconic location. Purchase of land from Peel Holdings could be problematic. Communication issues - better train links, could be huge traffic issues? Would be a huge boon to the city centre economy and enormously raise the profile of EFC as a Liverpool based club sitting on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey (cue the chant). So all in all there really is only one option worthy of consideration, albeit the docks option will be the more difficult of the too.

With regards to the Commonwealth Games, don't really give a toss tbh. We want a football stadium, not an athletics arena, though I appreciate running tracks can be removed and replaced with seating. Be nice if they could have a retractable roof too... get one over our lovely neighbours and the Mancs and London grounds.

All to be achieved in 3 years? Wont be holding my breath on that one. Nice to see things moving though, with a bit more purpose than the previous disasters.

No no sorry can't mention Usmanov on TW. Maybe he's got other wealthy friends who can see a viable project to make a big profit.

Or it could be ' pure invention '. Lol.

The Emirates wasn't built in a 'built-up area of London' as such. It's in Ashburton Grove (I live nearby) which was a shitty old rubbish tip, and industrial estate when they bought the site. It wasn't residential, or built-up to be fair.

80% of that site was council owned (the tip) and the rest was sold to Arsenal by Sainsburys (and others) I think. The new site is only about half a mile from Highbury, and while at the time there was loads of opposition, it appears to have worked out long-term.

That said, it's rubbish to get in & out of for supporters on matchdays, and the area is a no go zone when Arsenal play at home due to the crowds, and road closures. It snags up half of north London whenever there's a match on.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that comparisons with London grounds, and Liverpool grounds just don't add up due to the size of London, and the infrastructure/how close together the houses are down here. Liverpool has way more room than we do, and probably more brownfield sites (and definitely more green-sites) to offer a developer.

Now I am just a individual example but I wonder just how many people would be thinking along the same lines .
Do you see how outside investment could flow into the city ?
Not only is this a massive decision for the club but for the city itself but my big fear is as Graham Mockford has pointed out dealing with Peel Holdings maybe the stumbling block and they want to screw the club for every penny knowing they have a rich investor .

It's all about dollars & cents folks but for my money the dockside stadium makes more financial sense in the long run .

Guaranteed footfall of 50k every other week could attract interest from hotels, of which there's a shortage in the city, restaurants etc. Then there's other revenue sources that would attract customers.

So it could be an attractive proposition from their side to kick start the development.

If LCC want to use the ground for Commonwealth games and other athletic events they can chip in with the costs of conversion techniques like retractable seating and the track.

Otherwise LCC will have to build a stadium of their own which is more costly for them and what would they do with it afterwards? Well by 2026, there might just be another team in the city looking for a new stadium on the cheap??

"John is also an avid fan of Liverpool Football Club along with his family members."

Hopefully he's a businessman first and foremost, you'd think so from his track record, and he won't let that cloud his judgment....

its is from 2009:
Posted by Beechside on October 13, 2009, 7:38 am
swampy

first I've heard of this:
summary of the link in case it doesn't work.....

Expect an announcement by Peel Holdings (owners of Liverpool Waters scheme land) and the NWDA regarding Clarence Dock in the new year.

The old Mersey Docks & Harbour Company who owned the land before Peel went to the extent of hiring stadium designers to see about it's feasibility.

The CEO of MDHC said it was not only feasible, but also desirable saying that there needed to be a landmark building there that wasn't just more apartments, to kick start investment.

Planning documents for Liverpool Waters in late December.

It would be a multiple agency enablement including NWDA money. Peel would construct the stadium.
Clarence Dock is the dock to the left of Princes Dock (which is left of the Liver Buildings).

It's a brownfield site that is 30 acres larger than Kings Dock. Room for hotels, tower blocks and a supermarket.

Peel are looking at what the Melbourne Docklands development, where a stadium was used as a driver to get investment down to the docks, which had been unused and fell into disrepair since the 1980's due to containerisation taking the trade away.

The stadium at Melbourne attracts 2 million people a year and was a key driver to getting loads of companies to invest (Sony Erickson, Axa, etc).

Another great site would be between the two cathedrals. Now that WOULD dominate the city.

"There's been several comments over different TW threads implying Moshiri is Usmanov's front-man. Don't know about that. Nothing researched indicates it. But that they've partnered for decades"

If that is the case, which I think it is, I am pretty sure Usmanov while he has a financial interest in another EPL Club Arsenal, cannot be seen to have any direct financial link with Moshiri regarding his stake in Everton. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Christin # 111 - here is the dream to sell to Bill

"Bill can you imagine it - speeding up the river and through the dock gates at the helm of your big blue speed boat to you own personal jetty outside our brand new "Mersey Arena".

White locks trailing in the breeze from underneath your Captains hat with the "EFC 1878" badge on the front. Just imagine it Bill."

Link

You are correct about the impact the Docklands development had on Melbourne. If anything you have understated it. The development of the Melbourne Docklands (and Southbank) continues to this day.

The amount of jobs and wealth it created (is creating) is staggering.

Melbourne is a great city but I can assure you that development on that sort of scale would restore the City of Liverpool to its former glory.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if our great club was the initiator of such a thing.

There I go again dreaming - light the blue touch paper.

I worked in Islington for about five years so know it relatively well. I also have the experience of the matchgoing fan at both Highbury since the ‘80's and the Emirates since it was built.

Your description of The Emirates being built on a “shitty old rubbish tip, and industrial estate” is absolutely correct.

I would challenge that it's not in a built up area though, and you seem to contradict yourself when you say “it's rubbish to get in & out of for supporters on matchdays, and the area is a no go zone when Arsenal play at home due to the crowds, and road closures. It snags up half of north London whenever there's a match on.”

My words were never “residential” (but the surrounding area is to be honest) and it is “built up” – it's in the middle of North London as you say yourself.

Arsenal had to make compromises in order to stay near to their spiritual home – we could equate this to redeveloping / staying near Goodison. They could've moved out to “a field near Stevenage” to alleviate some of these issues (a bit like us moving to Croxteth) or might have preferred a world class location (a bit like us moving to the waterfront, or them by the Thames) but they stayed put as this was deemed the best solution based on all the criteria at the time.

My point is, Moshiri invested in Arsenal in 2017, a year after the Emirates was opened. Was this partly because they had a shiny new stadium? Does he think that unless we build a shiny new stadium he will struggle to make good on his investment in future (i.e. attract people like him when he wants to sell). Having invested at that point in the curve previously does he wish he'd got in earlier before the Emirates was built (which is potentially why he's bought Everton now and has the drive to build a new stadium), and having experienced all the problems you document so well at the Emirates would he have done it a different way?

If we had the answer to the above we'd probably have a good idea of which of Croxteth or The Docks is the preference of the man with the money ("staying put" sounds like it might be out of the window).

And if he has more options in Liverpool than London as you believe then he's got a bigger magic wand to play with, hasn't he?

Multi purpose - used for every type of a event. Looks amazing

I have been in that roof during its construction - the company I worked for supplied the scaffolding to the project. I have watched it being closed also. It is an amazing piece of engineering.

I have seen Man Utd play their, England's RU team humiliated their, and the Australian 50 over side play their. It is a fantastic stadium.

The Aussies, as well as being good at cricket and most team sports, know how to design, construct and upgrade stadiums.

Melbourne is a hot bed for sport. If you can go on to Google Earth check out the Etihad and its surrounds,

The MCG from Batman Avenue (for an engineering challenge)

The Rod Laver Arena and its surrounds.

AAMI Park

People come from all over the world to attend sporting events, rock shows etc at these stadiums. They spend a lot of money in Melbourne while they are here.

While we are all thinking big - here is a mind boggler.

Mr Moshiri and his "associates" could buy all the land off Peel, build us a new stadium, and develop what is left over.

I agree that it should be a better stadium than anfield but I think you are getting over excited if you think a stadium is going to be biolt between the two cathedrals given that the university's own most of the land and you have the Phil, Everyman. The docks will do just fine!

London is so spread out, that it's kind of a perception issue when you're talking about inner-city London, versus what some see as the suburban areas, and then further out to the real 'burbs' as they're known.

As a Londoner, I see 'built-up' areas as the inner-city, central London - not North London which is way less built-up than the centre of town (obviously) and less built-up than say the East or West of town. North London is probably the leafiest part of residential London in it's entirety.

Anyway, I agree with everything you're saying about Moshiri getting involved ahead of the curve this time - he knows what he's doing due to the previous experience you allude to with Arsenal, so I firmly believe we (Evertonians) should trust his judgement on this one.

He's clearly a smart man, has made vast sums of money, knows the football industry, knows the pitfalls of building a new stadium, knows business, and you can be damn sure he's future-proofing his investment which can only be a good thing for us.

Personally I'd be amazed if we end up with anything other than a shiny new ground on the riverfront that brings in great revenue for Liverpool as a city, and helps push Everton on for future generations. Goodison is a relic, and we need to let it go for the future of the club and the supporters to come long after we're all gone.

Link

Nil Stadium Nisi Optimum

Rather understandably, Evertonians see the arrival of Farhad Moshiri as the dawning of a new era, an era where Everton can, once more, compete with the very best in the Premier League. A potent symbol of the status of a football club is their stadium, and, sadly, there has been no greater symbol of Everton's status as the Premier League's perennial paupers than Goodison Park.

Bill Kenwright's search for a wealthy investor has spanned sixteen years and once the understandable euphoria over Mr Moshiri's arrival has subsided the enormity of the task facing him needs to be understood. He inherits a team that has finished in the bottom half of the league, it requires significant investment and a new manager. Off the field, Everton's commercial performance, in relation to their perceived peers, also requires considerable attention but perhaps the most enormous task facing Everton's new investor is that of addressing the stadium.

Whilst players, managers and owners may come and go on a regular basis a new stadium can exist throughout the lives of generations of Evertonians to come. The decisions on subjects such as redevelopment or location and design are complex; it is simply not the case that a stadium can be built on any piece of available land or because it fulfils the needs of others, as was the case with Kirkby which KEIOC vehemently opposed. Everton need a stadium for the benefit of Everton and nobody else, nothing but the best will be good enough this time.

One of KEIOC's expert witnesses at the Kirkby public inquiry was architect Trevor Skempton . Apart from being an avid Evertonian, Trevor was Consultant Urban Design Advisor to Liverpool City Council and is currently a Lecturer at the University of Liverpool School of Architecture.

Here we've invited Trevor to outline the criteria for a successful stadium solution and we would invite you to consider this brief document when potential sites and designs come forward.

Everton – Eight Criteria for a Good Football Stadium

1. Inner-city or City Centre location. The stadium should be easily accessible by public transport. The city centre is by far the best place for this as public transport capacity drops exponentially with distance from the city centre. Matches are played at the weekends or in the evening, when there is plenty of spare parking capacity. The stadium can contribute to the overall image of the city, alongside theatres, cathedrals and civic buildings. The inner-city is the next best thing.

2. Scope for Incremental Development. Football Clubs need to be able to develop continuously. The case for incremental developments is that they can change with time. A one-off completed design can quickly become an out-dated straight-jacket. But fixed historic elements can complement a changing context.

3. Core Capacity of 48,000, with potential for further phases to take it, at first to more than 60,000, then – ultimately – to the appropriate size to be able to stage the Champions League Final (at least 80,000). Supporters must be able to dream of the ultimate goal, in their home stadium, as they do in terms of their team.

4. Just half the seats should be of a generous ‘premium quality'. The other half should be of a contrasting traditional ‘atmospheric quality' – that is they should be tightly-spaced and close to the pitch, ideally with an element of ‘safe standing'.

5. Closeness to the action: This is of great importance in regular club football, both for the experience of the spectator, and the creation of a good atmosphere in support of the team. Distance from the pitch is every bit as important as sight-lines. That is why this notion the idea of sharing with athletics in a club ground has fallen out of favour (as against occasional big International games or Cup Finals). Despite ingenious attempts, nobody has yet come up with a satisfactory solution.

6. Eight days a week, the stadium should exert a continuous presence in the eyes of the supporters in particular and the public in general. There should be many activities every day – concerts, museum, club shop, restaurants, hotels, etc.

7. Aspects of ‘atmosphere' must be given serious consideration – just as in the design of a theatre or opera house. Match atmosphere, or being a ‘fortress', has long been regarded as the accidental by-product of a cost-conscious engineering approach. But team performance, and the attractiveness of a venue to television audiences are vital factors, and both are directly related to the stadium design.

8. History. Football is an emotional business – the accumulation of trophies and the accumulation of memories. Many of these emotions are bound up with the stadium, and a move puts at risk (in business terms) these ‘unique selling points'.

Conclusion: An expansion of Goodison Park, retaining and incorporating the best aspects of the famous old stadium, done properly, is not the cheapest option, but it can be done incrementally, and respond to ever-changing requirements.

Any alternative would have to capture some extra-special unique magic, through its location in the city centre or on the waterfront. Just to follow unimaginatively in the footsteps of Bolton, Wigan, or Derby (to a ‘business park'), or even Arsenal, Manchester City or West Ham (to a leggy superbowl) will not be good enough.

TRS/ for KEIOC / 17th May 2016

Previously, Peel had no plans to incorporate a stadium into the development, probably because with the financial confidence around when they bought the land they believed they didn't need anything like that....but now they do.

A stadium that pulled in a guaranteed 50,000 people every other week at least would encourage bars , restaurants, clubs and a sundry other recreational facilities to move into the area. This says nothing about the advantages of a facility that could be used all year round for concerts, other sports etc. The area would become busy and 'Buzzy' instead of it being dead and deserted as it is at the moment and this would encourage residential development and this in turn would further encourage other businesses to move into the area too. Liverpool Waters would be underway and EFC would be a part of it and in a sense, a 'facilitator'.

It just makes incredible sense to me and all for the price of maybe paying Peel an annual leaseholder rent to them as the freehold landowner. I am very confident that the docklands will be the next home of Everton Football Club. Croxteth might provide a very fine stadium and could be a little cheaper but that would be a false economy because the future of Everton Football Club would be assured in what I am sure would be the finest, most iconic and most desirable football stadium in this country....and maybe anywhere.

Go for it Blues....please go for it.

I guess on a post that appears to be full of unbridled optimism, 60,000 state of the art waterfront stadium leading a £5bn regeneration scheme consisting of residential, leisure and office skyscrapers, I'm just posting a note of caution.

Let's be honest who wouldn't want it, but these things are driven my numbers, hard cold investment decisions. That applies to Peel and I'd be amazed if it didn't apply to our new investor.

Without be privy to such financial information it is impossible to see the tangible financial return and therefore the viability of any options.

St Kilda and Hawthorn played there.

It is now a training ground for Hawthorn surrounded by detached and semi detached houses built by Mirvac Developments.

St Kilda now play at the Etihad - Hawthorn at the MCG.

Hopefully your line of thought, is just because we have been getting dragged down off your alias for years!

Just imagine sailing from New York, just to watch Everton, whose ground will be a ten minute walk, from where the ship berthed. Stretch your imagination, and dream.......!

From little acorns Oak trees grow. Every development on this scale needs to be kick started and nothing so far has managed to do so since the land was purchased by Peel Holdings. The initial development that encourages progress might not be the biggest in the final analysis nor even the most important but it can and often is the facilitator.

If you doubt that, look at the Liverpool southern waterfront today. Not very long ago there was desolation from Mann Island to the Dingle. Improvement began with a Garden festival which, although now gone at least demonstrated how the environment could be improved and desolation transformed into something for the public good. This led to the willingness to develop the whole of the Toxteth docks area including the gem itself, the Albert Dock.

Do you think Liverpool One would have been built if the Albert Dock it overlooks had been as it was when an episode of 'Boys from the Blackstuff' was filmed there in 1982? No it would not. Do you think the Museum of Liverpool would have been built where it is, or the new apartment blocks, the old White Star building turned into a hotel, the Leeds-Liverpool canal extension? No, they would not.

From desolation to one of the most iconic waterfronts in the world and none of it would have been likely if it hadn't been for the permanent improvement provided by the temporary garden festival. All this was obviously more piecemeal than the plans for Liverpool Waters but a new stadium could do very much the same for the desolation of the north end docks.

We all thought Kirkby was a done deal a few years back, the Kings Dock was believable at the time circa 1996 as a lot of clubs were redeveloping or building stadiums then so why not us I thought.

Now the Walton Hall Park venture didn't surprise me that it never got off the ground what with our past record and Kenwright's failure to deliver anything at the helm of the club.

We are slowly running out of cards to deal on the ground move so I'm not holding my breath at the very least until the builders have started laying bricks on site.

That all could be true but just wanting it to be true doesn't neccesarily mean it is. As I said I'd be really happy if it is but I will start getting excited when someone puts a spade in the ground.

Tony

I can't see your New York to Liverpool match week special by boat catching on, but nice thought.

Better wait until the topping out party.

Or should it be an unknown like De Boer, who may or may not keep us there and risk loosing 3 years of TVs revenue?

Anyone?

Also, as part of Moshiri's (and friends) investment did they insist on something in place in terms of a stadium plan on a different site to Walton Hall Park before making their initial investment. Basically a guarantee that they can add extra value to their investment by increasing their net assets.

If it's a yes, to all of the above then that makes the timescale of 3 years sound doable. The statements from Joe Anderson seem so cock-sure that it sounds like he is privy to some pretty concrete evidence that spades are going to be in the ground very soon. How long does a decent stadium take to build/plan? I'm presuming it'd be more than 2 years, which means we'll be starting 2016 and an announcement cannot be far off.

Kenwright may not have managed us well over the years and took god knows how long to find investment, but i'm pretty sure he and his ego would like to feel he has contributed to a legacy that would be of benefit to Evertonians for generations to come.... and a spanking great 60,000-seater, waterfront stadium (am I dreaming?) would fit that spec.

I personally believe Usmanov, or other very rich associates of Moshiri will join us (just a gut feeling) as his own personal wealth is not enough for the initial investment,

Thoughts?

PS: as a footnote I noticed on this Link a quote 'The offshore takeover vehicle used by Farhad Moshiri, Blue Heaven Holdings, was setup eight months ago, in August 2015' ....which would suggest they have had plenty of time to sound out the city Council, Peel and other land owners as well as stadium contractors

PPS: There is no way these guys are going to pass up the opportunity to build on the waterfront (if it's definitely an option). They want the control they weren't given at Arsenal and they want to make a statement. Unlike the past I don't think cash is going to be an issue!

I also found a comment which says (regarding Arsenal), "Usmanov, who remains a major shareholder, states that he has no intention of selling his shares".

Ideally we need a 55000 seater where the closest seats to the pitch are just a meter away and the stands have a steep incline that keeps the noise in. I love the stadium Valencia have where the noise is something else.

Russian businessman Alisher Usmanov has become the owner of the club of the English Premier League, "Everton". This "Championship" said a source in the English Premier League close to the deal. Usmanov also owns part of the shares of the London "Arsenal" (about 30%), but because it is not a majority owner of the "Gunners", that has the right to be the owner and other clubs from the same national league. Usmanov became a shareholder of "Arsenal" in 2007, by acquiring 14.58% of the shares. As for the "Everton", this team after 26 rounds is located on the 11th row in the Premier League table.

This has been translated from the original Russian text... I don't know how old it is though?

David #172, Moshiri has an agreement in place to take his share ownership to 75%, the 25% extra may be coming from Usmanov if he sells his Arsenal shares, who knows? We'll have to wait and see.

Kevin - 145 thanks for the Link;
David - 147 - thanks for the posting;
David - 149 - thanks for a terrific post.

Fascinating stuff; enjoying every post.

Indeed it does point to the fact that Mr Moshri has been planning ahead, You would not expect anything else from a accountant.

If 25,000 others did the same - that would be £400m. Enough to build it. Add corporate hospitality and sponsorship = cost to run it covered.

Too simple, surely?!

Debenture seats would be a quick way to raise money towards funding a new stadium even if it seems the funding is already there.

As Ray pointed out though you would need large numbers taking them up to raise substantial amounts of cash and for some it's not possible.

Saying that a shiny new Docklands stadium might tempt people to invest in them!

FM is a billionaire. He's likely arrived at EFC with a plan already more than half-formed in his mind. The waterfront sounds mint - and could catapult us back in front of our noisy neighbours in one go.

But this is EFC, please don't fuck it up!

Come on Sevilla pump them gobshites tonight!

Bit like "Devastated Bill" mortgaging our advance gate receipts.

Moshiri must know that retail is all about location, location, location and therefore the dock site is a no brainer unless Peel are looking at an exorbitant sale or lease amount.

The cost of building the stadium will be about the same no matter where it is located so the enabling conditions will be the deciding factor.

Clarence Graving Dock on Regent Road
And
Collingwood Dock

I think that the site In Croxteth just might be a smoke screen.

I don't know the docklands that well what are you thoughts?

'Just along the waterfront' comes the reply - visitor heads of down past the Liver buildings on his way to the stadium.

'Get the bus from Liverpool to Croxteth, take a left, then a right and you will be nearly there' comes the reply - visitor heads of to see if the WackerQuacker is back, up and running.

It's great that we now have some indicators that Mr Moshiri is beginning to take over at Goodison Park. It looks like we are going to get the best manager available to us. There are signs that the politicians are now beginning to think of supporting Everton at last, in terms of finding a suitable site for a new stadium.

However, what happens regarding Everton's future if it involves a new ground, will have a massive effect on the area of Kirkdale/Walton.

I regularly walk round Stanley Park/Anfield Cemetery/Walton Church and County Road and think what iot would be like if EFC made their new home in Stanley Park.

There was provision, I seem to remember, for LFC to build a new 60,000 seater ground in the Park, on the site of the old sports centre and it's car park.

I also seem to remember that there was a plan developed by the two sets of supporters, for a Footbal Village and museum, of football to sort of link the two stadiums.

I'd hope, before the City Council get carried away with the rush to generate the business/retail opportunities, a new ground would bring, that the Club and the Council, think about what effect the move (if indeed the club decided to move, rather than re-develop Goodison Park) on the area.

Some might argue that' it's no concern of EFC what happens to the area but I think it should be a major consideration of the Council's thinking should a new ground be the way forward.

Put simply, a lot of small businesses would likely die along County Road/Walton Rd?City Road, in what is already a deprived area. The deprivation would likely increase with the closure of those businesses.

I would hope that included in the thinking of the Council, is a new Stadium in Stanley Park for Everton Football Club, with the ensuing benefitsfor the area that of a football village/museum, would bring.

It looks like the Council are providing the site of the proposed stadium in the Park, as a sort of processional way to the lfc ground. Before it is too late, I hope the the club look at the the long term benefits that a stadium in the park would bring before rushing into the area of Clarence Dock or Croxteth.

For information. There is absolutely nothing in the way of facilities in Croxteth eg pubs, food bars, , although there would likely be some development of these, it would I think, be only whatever was in the ground.

There is nothing in the area of Clarence Dock either; although, again, retail outlets are probably likely and there would be space for a hotel included, I would think.

Transport to/ and parking at or neart both sites are limited as the East Lancs Road and the Dock Road are the only major routes to/from the two sites mentioned.

So, although it might seem a great idea at the moment, and the hope of the Council to bring the Games to Liverpool might be part of their thoughts; to me there is a lot more at stake for the club and the area, than the Mayor's desire to see those games in Liverpool.

As for us, then I can see that it is an argument that the supporter's main thought is go the match and see our club successful again and not be concerned about local considerations. But I see no harm in considering both.

I think you can take it the we will not be interested in moving to Stanley Park, nor will we be thinking of redeveloping Goodison Park.
There seems according to Joe Anderson a straight choice between 2 sites, and the speculation is its either the docks or Croxteth. Yes it will seem very strange not going to Goodison but times change. But Goodison and the surrounding area has had its day, but I do hope the community will be given some help by both the Council and the club.

"1892: Goodison. 2014?" Link

If you ignore the sunny optimism concerning the manager and his performance in 2013/14, I think the rest of the article still holds true. A move to the northern docks, to a state-of-the-art, 60,000-seater iconic stadium in the heart of the city, would give the club a massive, massive boost. The point was that in 1892 the club aimed big, emerging from the fallout at Anfield to build the country's first purpose-built football ground. We need that same level of ambition now.

Interestingly, a lot of the comments at the time were along the lines of "sure, sounds fantastic - but impossible without a billionaire buyer".

Enter Mr. Moshiri!

Last summer there was a music festival on the site and a temporary drive-in cinema was also erected. I know that the council are keen to see the area between Leeds St and the Stanley Dock in-filled with new developments, but the problem for the city is that the land 'over the dock wall' is all owned by Peel and this is where they have their permission to build Liverpool Waters.

Since securing planning permission on this scheme, Peel will have been working extremely hard lobbying potential foreign wealth funds to join the vanguard of this development, and I think that all that can be said on that front is that it has been 'quiet'. This will have tested Peel's resolve to see through what even they claimed is a 30 year plus project.

Their experience of the last 3 or 4 years may just encourage them to reconsider the scale of the whole project, and to think about what the benefit a large scale sports stadium project could do for their ambitions, albeit curtailed ones. Much of the high rise stuff would have to be sacrificed to make room for the stadium.

Personally, I think Peel will be pragmatic. I think they would rather have a large slice of a scheme in the bank, rather than all of something that will never happen.

A new station between Moorfields and Sandhills could serve a ground at Collingwood, Trafalgar or Clarence Dock – the station could be built in the scrub north of Sherwood Street, where there is loads of space for sidings for shuttle trains running into Moorfields on match days. A 5-minute walk from where the new stadium would be.

Could also build a big underground multi-storey car park into the station to cater for those driving in from north.

It looks like the perfect spot –- in desperate need of regeneration, with potentially excellent transport links; on the waterfront and in the heart of the city.

New Manager
New Stadium
New Owner
Money to spend

What a day that could be!

I live not far from Twickenham and that Stadium also beats Wembley – possibly by virtue of being a short(ish) walk from the Thames.

If there is going to be a ground move, we will go for the most shortsighted, cheap and nasty option. An iconic ground on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey near the centre of a city that has become one of the leading short break tourist destinations in Europe? Or a flat pack in a cultural desert on the East Lancs, handy for Gillmoss and... er, that's it.

If there is a major sea change in our leadership we may have a chance of the first. Me? I remember once there was a rumour of Widnes, for Chrissakes !

Rogue visitors to TW Mark ...?

In an age when Premier League clubs don't have to rely upon gate money for a big part of their income, when the bulk of the money is now coming from TV rights to screen matches live within the UK and rest of the world.

Let's hope the powers that be are taking notice of both this poll and the Liverpool Echo poll.

With their income, I'm sure they could afford it, it's just a matter of whether the business case stands up. They seem to have decided it doesn't. It may do for us given the poor state of our current home.

The 'Widnes rumour' was actually the old Cronton Colliery site which is very firmly in Knowsley. Tarbock Island junction M62/M57.

As for being able to see it from New Brighton, so what? You can see the roof of the Main Stand at Goodison from there as well. I'm looking forward to when passengers on Cruise Ships will be able to see our new stadium, especially if they arrive at night when there's a night game on and blue lasers are spelling out 'Kopites are gobshites' on the clouds.

Can't wait.

Naughty. But nice.

Any stadium development plan would need to jump through at least 600 hoops before construction can start.

Plus I've yet to even see Moshiri even open his mouth never mind design plan and fund a new stadium.

It's all pie-in-the-sky bollocks as all EFC stadium plans have been so far.

When I see the stadium, only then will I believe it. In the mean time lets have a whip-round to re-paint Goodison Park.

I've been thoroughly enjoying this thread for 2 days, losing myself in the excitement of the posters and the thought of what could be – until your miserable post!

After reading about our neighbours pre- and post-match antics they could build a solid gold stadium and they would still smell of shame. What an embarrassment to the city some of that lot are.

I'm beginning to think Moshiri cant speak – we've heard nothing from him.

one really good thing is that your nemesis KEIOC are back on watch.

Those lads will ensure those responsible for moving forward on any stadium issue are well "advised"

I am sure you will join me in welcoming them back on the scene – not that they really went away!

If this is indeed true I can imagine BK is wetting his pants trying to keep his trap shut and not start spouting off his usual OTT crap.

KEIOC are a tiny and irrelevant minority group that is neither needed nor wanted by Evertonians, they have no relevance to the real problems that the club or fans face at the moment.

And I would like to know about the 'unreal' ones too while you're at it.

Thanking you

I like the fact that he seems to be just getting on with greasing the wheels of our forward progress. I would far rather a silent man of action than someone who talks a good game but is never actually able to do anything.

But before I can get excited about 65,000 capacities and laser lights it would be nice for Moshiri to just actually say something about what his future plans are for the club and what's in development.

Maybe I'm a cynic but after Kings Dock and Destination Kirby I'll believe it when I actually see it.

Patience is a virtue and all that!

I have been a supporter for almost 60 years but despite the ups and downs over that frightening period of time, this is something to really get excited about, which is the general consensus on this thread over the past couple of days.

Surely if there was anything in the pipeline, the usual suspects would be shouting it from the rooftops, but we have been fed a morsel and made a stadium on the docks out of it... madness has ensued... long summer ahead!

Meek and mild, that is what we are...