Another big derby let-down

A 4-5-1 formation was necessary to crowd out Liverpool's midfield. Pennington shouldn't have been playing ,

Holgate should have been given a simple right-back job and told to do his best. Barry should have started instead of Calvert-Lewin to increase tenacity and experience in midfield, and to refuse space for Mane and Coutinho.

We still may have struggled, but the set-up above makes more common sense to me. We could maybe have snatched a draw at least.

Once more, it is so blatantly obvious that the difference between the quality of Mane or Coutinho and Barkley is frustratingly huge. Our finishing and lack of quality assists is always the difference when we play the best teams, and the way some of our players offer themselves in the derby is pitiful.

But what really wound me up was Koeman using the word 'proud' after the game. He obviously doesn't know what this game means to the club. Koeman picked a bad team, played the wrong tactics, and was slow to change the game when it was obvious we had players struggling. Disappointing!

When it comes to the Premier League, Everton make up the numbers. Beating teams like Hull and Bournemouth are as good as it gets...

We are hopefully coming out of the worst period in our history, it's just going to take time. During that time the 6 above us have eclipsed our transfer budget so it's no wonder we struggle against them.

A team with old average players and kids are not going to do any better.

The performance smacked of insufficient preparation.T oo much time and energy spent on incidentals (the spat with O'Neill re McCarthy) and not enough on the approach to a potential history-changing game?

We have got some tough games coming up... I just hope we can hold on to the 7th spot in the table.

Looking at the table this morning, we're on level points with Arsenal and only three behind Man Utd. I know they have games in hand but they have to win them.

We have to get yesterday out of our system and concentrate on the games that we still can do something about rather than yesterday's debacle which we can't do anything about.

Take out the frustration and pain on Man Utd on Tuesday – that's what we have to do.

I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and start attacking the selections, I didn't see too may dissenting comments before the game.

One of the drawbacks of not being able to get to a game is you have to listen to twats like Gary Neville. I was sick of hearing him say Barkley and Calvert Lewin were too advanced. They weren't. The problem was at the other end.

Once again, Williams and Jagielka were too frightened to get up the pitch. Their fear of being done for pace kills us every time we play one of the better teams. While the RedShite moved as a unit, pressing high and defending high, we were strung out like a fucking washing line.

We must have three of the worst central defenders in the Premier League. Funes Mori and the two caravan pullers who played yesterday may be okay when they can sit deep against lesser teams, but the top boys have more about them. Chelsea, Spurs and the RedShite all have players who will expose the space in front of them and go right for the jugular.

We need a clear out at the back: Robles, Stekelenburg, Williams, Jagielka and Funes Mori are just not good enough. Baines isn't getting any younger either. We couldn't even play hoofball yesterday, how many clearances were shanked?

Keep Seamus and hope for the best. Keep Holgate, but if any of the others are getting a game next season, you can kiss goodbye to any real chance of breaking into the top six.

I hope all those who have been shouting about clean sheets and a "massive improvement" now understand just how far away we are.

1. Williams is not the answer at the back.

2. We need to bring in 3 defenders, not 2, this summer.

3. The world won't end if Ross and Rom are not around at the start of next season once they are replaced.

4. Our younger defenders need protection from the defensive midfielders – not forthcoming yesterday.

5. Are Galloway and Browning, who both coped quite well when both Baines and Coleman were out a couple of seasons ago, not options to be considered in the short to medium term?

6. The manager and owner have had almost a year to assess the situation; decisive action is needed during the summer.

A lot could be forgiven with a good positive performance on Tuesday. Our frailties were very obvious. As long as we attain better class players for next season, then I will except we have moved on from last season.

However, I disagree with your call on Neville's calls. There was indeed issues at the back but I do agree that Calvert-Lewin and Barkley weren't narrow enough when we didn't have the ball. The ball into Liverpool's midfield was too easy.

Liverpool, we know, have tremendous attacking options. Surely we all know as well that they are very very poor at the back, as they were yesterday on the few occasions they were even slightly threatened. Then, was it too much to dream that we should have attacked them from the start?

I really thought Lookman would start yesterday and I could see him tearing their poor defenders apart or at least throwing some confusion int here.

Too many of their poor defenders had easy days yesterday; Lovren, who had just come back from injury, was not threatened at all by Lukaku (I've had enough of him – see my post on other thread). Milner strolled around like a training session, and Lucas... my goodness... incredibly average.

Give the new ground and all that is attached to it to the "Administrators" – get the "football" men in to getting it right on the pitch.

I wonder if Koeman has made his mind up about this season and (I hope) is seriously planning and ready to make big changes for next season.
Time for change... big change... big thinking... big decisions... big hearts... big beliefs.

We froze, again, pure and simple. We backed off Coutinho as though he had the plague. Gave him far too much space with the ball to do as he wished. He must have thought it was Christmas.

For me, Neville and Redknapp were talking sense. Barkley and Calvert-Lewin weren't helping back and Barkley and Lukaku just don't do enough if anything to change the course of a game when needed. Not top drawer I'm afraid.

Completely different playing West Bromwich at home to playing a proper game against one of the top 6 away. Be interesting to see who is the suitor for Lukaku in the summer after that showing.

The garbage he spoke after the game yesterday was an insult to every one of those fans who paid good money to watch that shite. I thought he was meant to be straight talking; I didn't see much evidence of that yesterday. It may as well been Martinez talking after the game.

Personally I don't think he's any better or worse than the Spaniard or Moyes and I'm dreading the summer transfer window. Because to me he hasn't got an eye for a player. We need a midfield schemer, a top keeper, two full-backs, two centre-halves and two strikers to replace Pele... er, sorry... I meant Lukaku – that's going to take some spending and some cute acumen.

I can't wait to see who he gets in. Oh, I see Man Utd struggled yesterday. Don't worry, boys... the remedy club, Everton will cure that for you on Tuesday. Expect more of the same... I do.

However I did want Lookman rather than Calvert-Lewin and its mystifying why Lookman doesn't get a look in. Calvert-Lewin to me doesn't add anything; I can't see what Koeman sees in him.

Maybe we hyped Pennington up too much as he also didn't look up to it; however, it's his first game of the season. Maybe just rusty?

In hindsight, Holgate should have played right-back. Lookman for Calvert-Lewin. Pennington replaced by who? Mirallas maybe. Shows how much we missed Schneiderlin already.

We're building a team and at the moment they aren't a top 4 or maybe 6 side. Close but not there yet!

We're doing better than anyone in 2017 and still people are unhappy!

The consensus seemed to be that going with a back four with Williams and Jagielka, with Barry in midfield, would have been nothing short of suicide against Liverpool's pace. Probably would have made more sense, in retrospect, to make Holgate the third centre-back and deploy Lennon as right wingback Are you Everton supporters or trolls? Odd that he didn't even make the bench, over Kone no less.

In the end though, I feel like the match came down to the fact that Mane and Coutinho conjured moments of individual brilliance and Barkley and Lukaku didn't. I don't really buy into the general criticism of Lukaku, but those griping that he basically padded his goal tally with a meaningless brace in extra time against Hull but was a complete non-factor in a crucial match against our hated arch-rival do have a bit of a point.

We show them too much respect and seem to always be slower in the mind. We need to sign a decent sports psychologist as well as a goalie, centre-back(s) and Number 10 in the summer!

We need big-name signings from top clubs around the world. Otherwise, same time next season, it will be the same shite we are spouting. Get world class quality in this side. End of.

Swansea (and others) did exactly this; Spurs went toe to toe and lost.

Koeman, I think, had half an eye on this and put out, through no fault of his own, in terms of personnel, a half-arsed team. I think he sent them out to make the best of what they had... hoping it all came right on the night, as it where.

This resulted in us playing a half-arsed system that was neither rope-a-dope, catch them on the break, nor all-out in-their-faces attack.

Not only was it a half-arsed system – we didn't play the good half of it well anyway.

Who was actually right-back? Did we have a back 5? Or did Pennington (who took his goal well; it'll be a nice memory of his time at Everton, shame is I don't think have he'll too many to go with it... hope I'm wrong for his sake...) and Holgate take turns in fucking it up – well, why not? Everybody from Koeman down did.

It's said Barkley won't tackle, the truth is he can't tackle... and you don't see him head much either. The only bit of Koeman's pep-talk that had effect was the bit where he told Barkley to get stuck in. He took that and ran with it, pushed the envelope? More like stuck a stamp on it and sent it round the world.

This resulted in Barkley being everywhere – except where he should've been – in midfield with Davies and Gana.

Calvert-Lewin did nowt – except go neck and neck with Lukaku on who will get his shirt least sweaty.

Lukaku: bottles the big games or starved of service? We have a chicken-and-egg thing. The whole Club bottles big games this season and, for 95% of the last 20-30 years, has bottled them. This results in Lukaku looking shite – not that he helps himself in the on-field and off-field perception stakes.

Oh and Baines, Jagielka and Williams should be pensioned off, like Hibbo, Osman, Gibson et al were.

Any way, George, I meant just to give you a short comment in basic agreement – turned into a rant. That's derbies and Everton for you.

Keep it cool, keep it cosmic and always keep Blue.

I didn't read any of the comments immediately prior to the game, but I'm surprised if people didn't have serious doubts about the team Koeman was sending out as soon as they clapped eyes on it.

Starting four kids, one of whom hadn't had so much as a sniff all season and another with about an hour and a half under his belt, and spreading them throughout each third of the pitch, in a game against our local rival, at a ground we haven't won at since Noel Edmonds and his squawking pink schnook were told to pack up their evil House Party and piss off, 'sharpish'?

I'm all for putting faith in youth, but there's 'faith' and then there's just throwing them into a fiery pit and crossing your fingers that they somehow make it out miraculously unburnt, like that 'Mother Of Dragons' sort from Game of Thrones.

Regardless, it wasn't just Koeman's initial selection that was misjudged, but also his baffling persistence with it when it became pretty apparent early doors that he'd played straight into the dastardly hands of the gum-diseased Hans Gruber.

Leaving things exactly as they were when clearly onto a loser? He may as well have gone full fucking 'Die Hard' and sent his men out for the second-half with a "Ho, Ho, Ho" note slapped on their shirts.

Take note of how many times Spurs have won at Arsenal since starting to seriously invest in their squad (or beforehand). It isn't going to happen soon, but it will happen.

The first half of the season was a ''getting to know you process'' and then they went on a half decent run until the Spurs and Liverpool games. We can make excuses all we like and blame certain players.

I believe the Liverpool game would have been different had we had Seamus and Morgan as those two have been playing tremendously well making the defensive side of things looking more competent despite the aging, Jags, Williams and Baines.

Obviously replacements are needed and it remains to be seen if the current squad has those replacements or if Koeman has targets in the market for next season. Always the biggest disappointment to lose derby games and 2 in one season is a little hard to take but every dog has it's day so we live in hope that it won't be soon.

One additional note, Ross should have been red-carded for what he did as that is the kind of tackle which is becoming all too common in today's game.

Let's face it, we simply do not have the quality or strength in depth to mix it with the top Clubs. And we are fooling ourselves, if we think we can reduce the deficit of points between us.

We had a good run of form, a!belt against teams who had not quite found their form. Our main objective now should be to hang onto 7th, spot by tooth and nail, until we reach the Transfer Window/s, whereby, not only do we need to hold onto our best players, who are few, but find an additional 6 or 7 top players who could walk into top teams.

That would give us cover on the bench and withstand injuries. Failing to do this, we will continue to amble Zombie-like from mediocrity to abysmal.

When Lukaku has played poorly, has he ever been subbed?!

The only thing I would have done differently would have been putting Holgate in the back three where he belongs. I'm hoping we can get both Keane and Maigure (or another better one) in the summer. I'd also have a look at Robertson from Hull, who Martinez should have bought when he played up here – he watched him enough.

It's hard to win a tough game when your defence is scared of its own lack of pace and your creative midfielder has a brain freeze.

Summer shopping list:

Keeper
2 centre backs
Proper midfielder with an eye for a pass and goal
Quality striker
Left back

Walsh is going to earn his money this summer. And hopefully Moshiri will spend his.

I am a big fan of Koeman, he got it wrong yesterday.
I posted several times during the week how we would come unstuck with a back 3. What happened is exactly what I thought would happen.

He compounded that by playing only two in central midfield causing us to be constantly outnumbered in the area where Liverpool's main attacking threat comes from.

In my opinion, he went with a side that was too attack minded. Going with three high up the pitch was always going to leave us short in the most important area of the pitch when playing against them. After the first goal, he should have dropped Ross in to form a three. It obviously wasn't working.

Teams who have had success an Anfield thus season played a narrow back four and packed the space in front of the back four.

Bad day at the office for Ron.

I can't understand, however, the talk about Coutinho and Barkley. Coutinho has been pretty shite until yesterday but Barkley has been on form. To me, it seemed he was the only one having a go at trying to make something happen, but in the end had a mare.

It is sickening how Koeman and his team roll over and give in when facing the better teams. Man City aside, the performances in most games since the turn of the year have been patchy but anytime we face teams with a decent manager, Koeman is found wanting.

If we are going to push on, we need major upgrades in many areas of the team but the mentality of the team also needs to be questioned.

Lukaku is a goal poacher but never a game changer, this is why the real top clubs won't be in for him at the stupid price levels being bandied around and his anonymity and shite attitude surely demoralise the team leading to the sort of capitulation we see in every big game.

It has been said many times – we don't have a leader anywhere in the team, or apparently in the management, if he is 'proud' of that performance.

For whatever reason, when it comes to the RS, we seem to be beaten before the whistle goes. We could be top of the league and the RS bottom and we would still get beat – there is just something wrong mentally.

Joe Royle and Howard Kendall seemed to be able to get it sorted but, as for the rest, it's just the same old shit.

For instance 1970 we won the league with ease yet managed to still lose 3-0 at home to them, our only home defeat of that season.

Fast forward to 1987, which was our last title winning year, yet we still managed to lose to them three times in the said calendar year, once in the league cup and twice in the league.

Look at all the latter stage cup matches we have had against them, we have lost two fa cup finals to them, one league cup final and four FA Cup semi finals beginning in 1950 which was long before they were an established top club and I haven't even mentioned that awful Super Cup final defeat of 1986!

You would have thought we would have outperformed them and fluked at least one of those big matches, but no – it has been incessant failure against them largely since World War 2.

I sympathised with his situation, I believe Schneiderlin would have been central to his plans and losing him would have put a proper spanner in the works.

I did what we all do before the game and wrote my own selections, but I was worried about them too.

My team would have included Jagielka and Williams too, simply because we don't have enough recognised experience at the back, I keep hoping we will get one big fuck-off swansong from them, but it's not going to happen, is it?

Just off the top, that's Hazzard, Mane, Coutinho and Harry Kane, all gone straight to the heart of our defence and going through like piss through snow.

Doesn't really matter who you pick elsewhere. If the opposition know they easily have the beating of your center-backs,. you've had it.

There have been plenty of posters all season and on the eve of the game saying Barry should not be a starter. Similarly, plenty have constantly been calling to give youth a chance. A good few during the week called on Koeman to be bold, play 2 up top and pack the side with local lads. They got their wish.

On the eve of the game, I commented he could well be tempted to play Barry from the off to have a tried and trusted wise old head on the pitch in the heat of the derby battle.

Before kick-off, I respected and admired his selection in 'going large' on youth. As it proved, the Pennington, Holgate and Calvert-Lewin axis down the right proved an inexperienced and vulnerable alignment.

Pennington, together with his fleeting appearances last season, does not look ready for this level (and I wonder if he ever will be).

Holgate had some very bad moments yesterday, but he also had some very good ones. There is a cockiness and confidence I like about this lad, over and above the skills I believe he has.

Calvert-Lewin was totally ineffective, but evidently – given how quickly Koeman promoted him to a starting position on his return from injury and in preference to Mirallas and Valencia – the manager sees something in him.

Still, I'm not going to get on the youngsters' case too much. There were more senior players whose performances left more to be desired than 4 rookies playing in their first derby together.

Plenty also wanted us to go 'gung-ho' and have a go at them. I was not convinced by this strategy as Liverpool have shown they prefer teams to come on to them, then play through them. They struggle more against teams that sit deep then hit them on the break. That is at present our best strategy. It worked like a dream in our best result of the season to date, the 4-0 tanking of Man City.

That said, like many, I was disappointed Koeman didn't make changes to the strategy, formation and players at the interval. I felt he could have gone with a flat back four, withdrawn Pennington, played Holgate at right back and reinforced midfield with the wise old head of Barry.

There was probably a case to replace Calvert-Lewin with either Mirallas and Valencia at the same time and have more width across the pitch and make the side more compact.

As it was, we were actually starting to get a toe hold in the game for the first time with Barkley (when he could stay on his feet) starting to have some influence and impact around their area.

That was blown out of the water on the hour mark when a succession of poor plays by Pennington, Holgate, Gueye, Williams and Robles – half the team – contrived to gift them a 3rd goal.

Only then did Koeman make changes, and one of them came in the 80th minute when the hapless Calvert-Lewin was taken out of his misery and the much livelier Mirallas came on.

Both manager and players will have learnt a lot from yesterday's game. As good a run as we have been on, the squad still lacks near psychopathic mean bastards who just hate to lose.

Until and unless that is addressed, Everton will remain a 'best of the rest' team who will never genuinely challenge for the title, let alone a top 4 finish, and our miserable, disgraceful, pathetic recent record against the pinkies will continue to shame us.

Tuesday night's selection and tactics are going to be interesting.

What Carragher says in the last 30 seconds of this interview probably indicates a large part of the problem.

Even if we try to use the same tactics and 'park the bus', our current 'defence' will be destroyed by their speed and real talent in passing and creativity.

Lukaku, if he's not benched, needs to show why he thinks he's still good enough for Champions League football after yet another insult of a performance, as did most of the team, yesterday.

I can't really disagree with the fact we have a defence that can be gone through "like piss through snow"... particularly when the manager makes the task even easier by unzipping the midfield and leaving it wide open for a load of cocks to push through at will.

nb: I'm (kind of) hoping the capital 'H' in "Hindsight" was a typo, rather than intentional...

...but if it wasn't, I have to ask:

Did you name your house 'Hindquarters'? 

Koeman was hiding behind Ireland and O'Neill the whole week... get on with your job, Ronald, which is Everton – controlling your players, like Barkley's stupid tackles, Lukaku not breaking sweat.

I heard Mark Lawrenson say on the radio yesterday that he knew the Everton team Friday night; says he was talking to a friend of Baines – so what's going on there, Bainsey???

Sort out your own house first, Ronald.

First, the heavy blame on Gueye is profoundly misplaced IMO. Idrissa was alone back there as a defensive mid – Davies was trying to push forward and did not help. Gueye couldn't be everywhere, but I didn't see anything "lazy" about him and there's no shame in being beaten off the dribble by Coutinho, who is as class on the ball as anyone in the Premier league.

Second, the "precious little logic in withdrawing Davies in favour of the veteran Gareth Barry" became glaringly obvious to me from the first moment Barry was on the field. His passing significantly changed the picture for us immediately. Davies, meanwhile, had been totally ineffective.

Obviously we had players who didn't perform very well, but this one is all on Koeman IMO. Giving Pennington his season debut at Anfield of all places was idiocy, especially in a back 3, which Pennington has never played. He was in hopelessly over his head, but I don't blame him, I blame Ron for putting him in a position where failure was inevitable.

Playing Holgate in the attacking wing role was a mistake… he can be good overlapping in space as a right-back, but he lacks the necessary midfielder's skill set under pressure and around the box. His passing was awful and he was caught out too many times. He should have been right-back in a 4-man backline, which would have been the obvious choice.

As has been said by others, starting four of the kids was too many. They were overwhelmed by the occasion and there was no steadying hand there to guide them, especially with Barkley out of control and Rom largely AWOL.

John (#24) is correct that perhaps Koeman's biggest failing was not making his substitutions at halftime when it had become obvious that we were courting disaster with the existing lineup. Barry, Valencia and Mirallas all came on too late, at 3-1 instead of 2-1. It's on Ron.

Paul Tran (#29), somewhat agree with your shopping list except I'd put goalkeeper at the very bottom of the list... I'm satisfied with Joel and I haven't anyone we could afford who is better... and I believe Galloway should be given a chance at left-back before we go shopping for one. (Off-topic, hoping to meet you when I come up to Scotland after the Leicester game – let me know how I can get in touch!)

Christopher (#11), I have the same questions regarding Browning and Galloway, and I'd add Callum Connolly to the list based on how well he is doing on loan at Wigan. I'd also like to see Holgate be given a real shot at centre-back before we start buying centre-backs in threes. I think he will do very well.

The only issue I had was Calvert-Lewin starting ahead of Mirallas – I don't really understand why Mirallas was on the bench. Otherwise with no Coleman, Funes Mori or Schneiderlin, it was going to be tuough going at the back.

You do learn more in defeat and if one thing's been shown by yesterday's game, I think it's that on current ability, neither Calvert-Lewin nor Pennington are ready to be starting at this level. Pennington is 22 so not sure if he's ever going to be ready.

We need a quality replacement for Jagielka and we need to plan on a replacement for Baines. Add the usual creative centre-midfielder we've been missing for years and a replacement for Lukaku (I really don't see him here next season), it's going to be a big summer for Koeman and Walsh – but at least they have the whole transfer window and no international tournament this year.

I expect (hope) to see a good 5 new faces in the first team squad next season with Barry and Jagielka having started their last games for us this season.

Re Barkley, I think it's in the best interest of the club and player for him to try somewhere new. If Spurs put in a big bid, we should take it. Buy Sigurdsson as a replacement.

We played decently second half and Barkley had a real go.

We had 4 lads under 20 at Anfield! Blues fans need to get some perspective. We will get a result at Old Trafford.

We need to buy players who have enough technical ability to do the basics, like pass to one another on a football pitch that resembles a carpet! (How hard can it really be?)

The gap in class between Ross Barkley and Coutinho was massive, especially in the latter's reading of the game – Ross still thinks he's playing football in the playground (blinkered, no vision of what is happening around him).

With the loss of our international players, it was always going to be a struggle, but unfortunately the youngsters are not yet ready so time to get the chequebook out and forget about the stadium in the short term.

We are very limited in stoic players and including injuries, Koeman was dealt a dire hand.

I would like to think that Koeman's after-match comments were an attempt to get up the Werewolf's nose, rather than admit being outplayed, in response to his Baboon chest-beating antics and constant berating of the officials.

I can't honestly remember a more irksome manager of Liverpool. He is the embarrassing uncle who won't leave the party, spends his time trying to be kool by listening to the Cure or The Happy Mondays... Fucking embarrassment!

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I still can't pick a winning team for yesterday.

Apply the old thought experiment... imagine Barkley in a team that had personnel that covered for his deficiencies and he could do what he's best at.... a bit like Sheedy in the '80s.

I think he'd blossom into what he threatens to become in the right side; I hope that's Everton.

When will these ''so-called'' coaches learn that you have to cover each goalpost?

With our injury list, I can't find a win either. But I can see a 4-2-3-1 that could have gotten us a point.

I agree about the young lads. I remember Fergie fielding a young team that got smashed by Barcelona... some time after Hansen's famous remarks.

Everyone was saying "These kids (Butt Scholes Beckham etc) are not good enough for this level; Fergie needs to buy a bunch of big names."

At a big club he would be in his final weeks already but here he will continue to be indulged only to prove himself as a Moyes-like tactician and a Martinez romanticizer!

That's twice in... how long? Does this make us kindred spirits?

Lukaku never produces in big games and bangs on about playing Champions League. He is not a team player as the likes of Costa is and he isn't in his league and doubt if he ever will be. That man would probably kick of if he lost a game of tiddly winks.

Lukaku doesn't seem arsed half the time. Take the money if anyone is daft enough to pay 㿨-70 mill. 㿊M for Barkley. Could build a new team with that kind of cash. I'm sick of the pair of em. Get rid.

Barkley had a poor game as did Lukaku. Barkley looked as though he cared about the result, Lukaku looked as though he didn't.

Lukaku blew his last big transfer push when he proved in the Euros that in big games he doesn't exist. If you want goals against Hull, Rom's your man, against the big teams he just hopes. The reason he came 503rd out of 503 Premier League players in the OPTA statistics for movement is because essentially he's rather lazy.

Thank God I'm old enough to remember Colin Harvey master-minding a 4-0 win at Anfield. I can't see it happening again in the near future.

Koeman's selections were bizarre and I'll leave it at that. We need central defenders and a front man who'll run.

However, Sigurdsson averages double digit goals and double digit assists every season, and that in a poor Swansea side.

Barkley, for all the hype, has yet to get that consistency. And he also plays in a (supposedly) better side. To be honest I'm bored of waiting for Barkley to 'come good'. The guy's had about 4-5 seasons now and is still 'one for the future'. Coutinho is only one year older and twice the player and yet Barkley is supposedly worth more?

Cash in on Lukaku (wants away anyway) and Barkley (massively overrated IMO) and use the £100m odd to bring in quality replacements who play for the team, are hungry and not 'ones for the future'. My humble opinion anyway. Barkley has the talent but not the footballing brain to go with it.

We have grown so good at the excuses. Some are reasonable. We were harshly done by during the international break. We were badly exposed losing Morgan, Seamus and yes, James M. But how you deal with the "excuses" is what matters most. Koeman's response to a pitiful first half was beyond unacceptable. It was an arrogant misjudgement which may have cost us any chance of a fight back. He's paid £6m a year not to get the basics wrong and his failure to significantly alter the formation and make at least two .and I was screaming for all three .substitutions is just unfathomable. Arrogance. Maybe. He's so bloody full of himself. I want him to succeed but frankly will be surprised but pleased to say I was wrong if he does yet I don't see it happening.

Much of this defeat was already an accident waiting to happen as two miserably poor transfer windows left us very short of quality cover, or just quality, in a number of positions. We needed a good second striker like Gabbiadini and without question we should have moved for a strong centre back when it was becoming clear that Williams wasn't quite the player we felt him to be. As for cover at right back? Another poor piece of judgement not to see this as a priority.

It's gone now, any outside chance of building the momentum and surprising a lot of people. We threw it away thanks to another glaringly obvious mistake by the manager at Spurs. Then yesterday's combination of poor mgt and a terrible showing by the senior players and schoolboy mistakes from, well, schoolboys I guess, or close to it. Excuses will be made for Pennington and it's harsh I know but he's got a mountain to climb after that performance, however hard it was for him in the scenario he was faced with. Yet there was Robles performing like he'd never played before. Williams putting in a dire showing that let everyone down. Gueye playing like he wanted everyone to know that his brief excellence was a total sham. And the hapless Barkley playing into the hands of everyone who has ever criticised his often terrible decision making and habit of running down every rabbit hole he can find. So Pennington shouldn't be too embarrassed.

Oh and then there is the leading scorer in the division who so many Everton fans seem to want to drive from the club. He doesn't seem to do well against the so called top clubs. The fact that the entire team, and in particular the manager, contrive to not turn up in almost any big game we play, that's just ignored and instead we fall back on his lazy look, his failure yomein a game on his own or his poor trapping of the ball. He was poor yesterday in the few moments he had the ball, got a pass that didn't sail over his head or had any Everton player within ten feet. He failed yesterday. But only at Everton can we find ways to dismiss his goal scoring record rather than look carefully at the whole team as a unit, the formation set up, the general style of play and frankly a transfer approach that leaves you wondering whether there really is the money behind the club we all hoped for ?

Nothing left but to move on and see if we can cling on to the holy grail of a seventh place finish and hope that the irritating Leicester City don't win the CL. Football remains a crazy game and a win at Utd, tho a lot less likely than another humiliation, is not impossible. Kenny at right back because, he's a right back. Williams dropped. Holgate alongside Jags. Gueye and Barry back together (sigh) and Ross and Tom given another chance to link up effectively and Kevin behind Rom. 4-5-1 and a lot of prayers. We deserve something back after another pathetic outing at Anfield.

If it's to change, we need to be very busy in the summer transfer market. We need a clear out of most of our squad of older players and buy 7 or 8 new ones that are a level above what we have now.

It's going to take some very serious money but it's the only way we will have a chance of being better than 7th next season, in my opinion.

Yes, for years they might have had better players, but that's not all it takes to win a derby. You need heart, you need to believe in yourself and in your team mates. Sadly I don't see any of these attributes in many of our first team players.

This summer, we are going to need to a major overhaul. Need to bring in a few winners. Whether we want him or not, if Rooney had of been playing yesterday, then he would have worked his balls off.

As others have said, the pivotal moment yesterday was after the equaliser. They had given away another shoddy set-piece goal and we needed to ram that home; not by going gung-ho but by keeping control of the tempo of the game and managing movement and space.

Instead – and this is what we do with sickening regularity – we congratulated ourselves, slackened, gave up space and invited their second goal. It's as though we practise it.

Schneiderlin might have made a difference but the absolute priority is to get someone on the pitch (and, ideally, off it – if that isn't asking too much of our manager and coaches) who can sense the way in which a game is going or likely to go, and react accordingly. We show no sign of understanding ourselves and our weaknesses at all.

Tough, clever players. Get them in. I hope Ronald, Erwin and Duncan can find the same qualities in themselves.

Unfortunately, dropping players lowers their value so the manager needs to get to the end of the season playing the players he wants money for. It may not win us games but it will reward us with better players next season.

We have some quality players in Coleman, Gueye, Schneiderlin and maybe some of the young kids will come good... but, IMO, the rest of the team needs rebuilding after watching the derby on Saturday.

Whenever we lose like this because of bad tactics, there's inevitably the TW posts of 'Barkley was shite, get rid', 'Lukaku couldn't be arsed, get rid', and similar 'get rid' comments about other players.

Perhaps it's the Prima donna manager who is the problem. Lukaku and Barkley perform well enough at home, when the tactics are right. Koeman's away tactics are truly shite, and he's either too stupid to realise it, too stubborn to do anything about it, or too busy having petty feuds with other millionaire prima donna managers to think about it properly.

Sometimes, managers can get in the way of an organisation working well. In fact, it happens often. It seems to happen a lot in football.

I think perhaps Moshiri and the board need to assess the situation very carefully, look at what they get for ٤M/year, and perhaps consider appointing someone with less tendencies to hanging their dirty washing in public, less tendency to publicly criticise players, and more tendency to focus on decent tactics aimed at getting a truly winning mentality that aims to win each game regardless of the opposition. How about David Unsworth?

As for some of the other comments on here, like 'get rid of McCarthy', well why? He is the most influential player at the club. His first full season and we had a record points total; the next season I remember he missed a game through injury and many on here were saying how much they never realised how important he was until he wasn't there.

It's no coincidence how our form nosedived while he struggled with injury, but our clueless Spaniard played on his desire to play every game (a la O'Neill) and he's never had the chance to recover properly. Just like the Goodison derby, I think he would have run the show on Saturday.

I am as angry with him as anyone here but he's younger than Gana and Schneids, meaning time is on his side, and if we're looking for a leader, then a fit McCarthy next season should be made captain.

Koeman did cock up big time, but one incident gives me optimism, and that's the spat with the meths drinking pikey: I've never seen Koeman act so passionately, and to display the same feeling as us fans gives me hope that he will simmer, then channel his anger into a positive force for the good of this club.

Martinez lacked this passion (2 x 4-0 defeats didn't stop his stupid smile), but defeat at the house of horrors looks like it put a spark into our boss.

And I also hope he now realises that a team can only carry one non-competitive luxury player at a time, and having a 'proper' squad, instead of relying on inexperienced or Zimmer-reliant players is essential, especially when competing with the top sides at the business end of the season.

What was evident on Saturday is we have no leadership whatsoever.

If we can get Rooney for a couple of seasons, whether he's not as quick, what he does still process is a footballing brain and a never give up attitude.

He could be the Andy Gray/ Peter Reid in the side, rousing the other players, he will rollick players for hitting a pass 30 yards astray,instead of putting his thumb up.

If not Rooney then someone who can be a leader on the pitch, can give other players a kick up the backside.

I am sick of seeing players put their thumbs up to another player who has wasted a pass, it's time that team had a good look at themselves, believe in the ability and play as a team, battling for their team mates.

I would have tried to frustrate them by defending deep, and I'm sure they would have started pushing up their fullbacks, which would have left us space to get it forward early, to get our forwards working the channels. But instead we got a team that had too many players, playing in no man's land once again.

When a team plays with 3 at the back it should enable 2 defenders to come to the ball, safe in the knowledge that they have got cover in behind, but the way we conceded the first goal, showed us that we just hadn't done enough homework to make this work because our defenders were all running away from the ball except Williams, who was just too deep,to begin with?

The reason I was happy with the team was because I think kids play without fear but, if the tactics aren't right, I suppose it just doesn't matter. Organisation and Brains win football matches, but we were sadly lacking in both!

We need men in the team.

People with mental strength – Gough, Southall, Gray, Van Den Hauwe, Reid – players of this ilk. Please note, apart from Southall, they were not world class but they had world class hearts and the RS never worried them. "They need to worry about us" – that was their motto. We need to get back to that mentality. Until we do, we may as well subtract 6 points after 10 games next season and that will tell us where we really are.

Rather than over reacting by trying to sell the whole team (or just Barkley and Lukaku who seem to get an unfair amount of criticism), let's park this one and hope Koeman has learnt his lesson.

I'm not sure whether our Ronald will learn the lessons but a win to-morrow would go some way to dulling the pain. Another Keystone Cops performance and the taxi will be waiting!

I don't think it was a one-off, Charles, I'm afraid. It was the exact opposite, it was what we always do.

I think it's going to take a remarkable character or characters to reboot this club and I don't think they've arrived yet.

We will pay big money for the likes of Bolasie, Williams and Schneiderlin. No disrespect to them but they have come from lower to mid table Premier League teams and in the latter's case was not a regular under Mourinho. These are players who are not tuned in to going to big teams and expecting to win. Playing for Everton will be as good as it gets.

Those type of players are out of our league, even with the supposed new money. Like you, I can't see our choker mentality changing any time soon.

Following Lovren's verbals at Ross, about his challenge, I see Wijnaldum has now hit out at the Everton following some of the challenges on Saturday.

I know these are relatively new to the club, but a bit of research wouldn't go amiss before spouting off about poor challenges.

Gerrard's two-footed assault on Gary Naismith's chest. Kuyt's two-footed lunge at Phil Neville. Rat boy raking his studs down both Mirallas and Distin.

I'm sure there are others but, as they say, what goes around comes around.

I also see Sadio Mane could be out for the rest of the season with a knee injury. While nowhere near as bad as Seamus, but will be a big miss in their push for a Champions League spot. During his absence due to the ACON, I don't think they won a game!! Here's hoping.

I bet they're regretting their sick song about Seamus now.