FA expected to investigate Holgate-Firmino clash

Saturday, 6 January, 2018 163comments  |  Jump to last

The Football Aasociation are expected to launch an investigation into the allegations of racism against Liverpool forward Roberto Firmino that caused tempers to flare in last night's cup derby at Anfield.

Everton's Mason Holgate reacted angrily to a verbal tirade from the Brazilian after he ended up in the seats following a shove from the Blues' defender as they contested a loose ball. Holgate was seen telling referee Robert Madley that Firmino had hurled a racial epithet at him.

The official was standing between the two players when the incident occurred but took no action against either, although he will have included an account in his post-match report which will be reviewed by the FA.

A Liverpool spokesman said afterwards: "The club and player will fully cooperate with the relevant authorities to ensure the facts are established in a thorough manner if deemed necessary or requested.

"While that process is ongoing, we will not be making any further comment."

Everton boss, Sam Allardyce, meanwhile refused to be drawn on the incident.

“I am here to talk about football and anything outside that needs to be dealt with by the authorities. That is for other areas of the football club. I have left that with the director of football (Steve Walsh).”


Reader Comments (163)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer

Stephen Jones
1 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:36:22
While they are at it, are they going to charge Lallana for deceiving the referee to obtain a penalty?

Funny how the BBC pundits who agreed it wasn't a penalty never recommended that the FA should investigate the incident as they did in the Niasse incident. Nor did they suggest that the FA should investigate Firmino...

John Ronnie
2 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:39:28
Horrible RedShite twats on social media all pointing the finger at Holgate.

Offended by everything but ashamed of nothing.

Horrible vile club.

Steve Ferns
3 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:42:20
The consensus seems to be that Firminio called Holgate a son of a bitch. And that he said it in Portuguese (the language of Brazil) where the word bitch translates to Puta.

Now how anyone can say that with any degree of certainty, I don't know. Maybe these expert on Twitter and the internet are all Kopite lip-readers? And maybe it was said off camera.

I expect this will all be swept under the carpet.

Ash Moore
4 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:43:43
"After the fact" suspensions for so-called simulation resulting in a penalty only apply to Premier League games... no?
Andy Macrae
5 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:50:14
According to a Spanish friend of mine, 'puta' is equivalent to our 'see you next Tuesday' word. I appreciate Portuguese and Spanish are different though.
Michael Ward
6 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:51:09
You clearly see Firmino say 'puta' and that gets no reaction from Holgate. He then says something else that you can't see because Kenny's head is in the way. That is what gets the reaction from Holgate.

I personally think he said it, Holgate certainly thought so. The ref has not made the decision there and then because he knew that the media coverage of it would be massive and he will want to be 100% certain/have evidence of it happening.

It's is the 4th or 5th story on the BBC – it should be the first. I also agree that Lallana should be banned

Paul McIntyre
7 Posted 06/01/2018 at 08:57:38
How exactly was Holgate "seen" telling the ref it was a racial epithet? To be fair, if someone pushed me into the crowd I'd have words, albeit none of them racial.

I'd rather see Lallana charged with deception. If a panel of three need to agree, well it was unanimous last night...

Matt Butlin
8 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:07:25
Holgate has had to delete his Twitter account. Shearer also tweeted last night telling Liverpool fans to Fuck Off as they were threatening his family. What's wrong with people???
Derek Knox
9 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:10:19
Totally agree with those calling for Lallana to be charged too, because there is no doubting that was a pivotal point in the game, by which they got a goal under false pretences.

I have watched the 'incident' several times, and Lallana's reaction was akin to being hit by train.

The referee I thought too was very unfair, in his issuing of Yellow Cards, which only seemed applicable if the alleged foul was committed by a Blue Shirted player.

I don't want it to sound like 'sour grapes' but I think we could have got something out of this game, had it not been for the aforementioned.

James Hughes
10 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:16:52
The RS have form for this, ratboy got banned for racist comments. Maybe a South American trait.

Alice band needs a ban for exaggerating contact to win the penalty and our club should be making a fuss about both incidents.

I thought the referee was generally poor last night and gave them the benefit too often. Maybe he wants to be best buddies with them, just like Twatenberg.

Stephen Jones
11 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:17:28
"Published on Friday, those written reasons of a three-strong panel, chaired by Blackburn Rovers' championship-winning winger Stuart Ripley and featuring fellow ex-players Paul Raven and Marvin Robinson, found Niasse had “exaggerated the effect of a normal contact in order to deceive the referee”.

Effectively branding Niasse a cheat, the commission deemed the 27-year-old's body movement when he and Palace defender Scott Dann had come into contact “were simply not consistent with the amount of force exerted upon him”.

The panel added: “The nature of the contact made by Dann was minimal and would not have thrown Niasse off balance and knock him down in the way he portrayed.”

For 'Niasse' and 'Dann' substitute 'Lallana' and 'Holgate'

Paul McIntyre
12 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:32:38
I'd say 75% of pens awarded involve a degree of exaggeration / deception.
I'm sick of hearing ex-pros say either:

"Ooh, there was definitely contact!" (So what? Would you say that for a foul outside the box?)

"He's entitled to go down." (Condoning cheating.)

Slippy Steve being the worst example of the above...

Lee Mandaracas
13 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:40:48
@Andy (5) The word your friend is thinking of is 'Coño' that translates directly into the word that shall not be mentioned. However, although that is a literal translation from Spanish, it actually is no greater an insult than 'idiot'. Imagine my surprise when my friend's fourteen-year-old Ibizenco daughter called her a coño over dinner before discovering this!

Puta translates from Spanish into English as whore or bitch. Hijo de puta is son of a whore or son of a bitch – the very worst type of insult one can throw at a Spaniard. All that said, Firminho speaks Portuguese but I was just referring to your post re your translation.

Firminho is still a 'see you next Tuesday'!

Brian Williams
14 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:48:23
In the slow-motion replays of the incident and what follows you can clearly see Holgate telling Jonjoe "He just called me a nigger." If he's telling Jonjoe that, it's a fair assumption to believe that's what he was telling the ref too.

I wasn't the only one to have spotted this and was worried I'd made a mistake but others on other threads saw it clearly too.

I recorded the game and watched that part several times and it's clear to me what Mason was saying to Jonjoe.

Jamie Evans
15 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:53:34
It wasn't Firminho. He wasn't even there. The words used were quite clearly seen and translate into the English words for "Hello Mason my friend."

The tee-shirts are being printed as we speak.

Chris Leyland
16 Posted 06/01/2018 at 09:54:51
Norwegian tee-shirt printing factories will be busy this morning.
Rob Halligan
17 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:08:54
Brian (#14), if it's true that Firminho said that to Holgate, then he should be banned for life. A lot of you may think that harsh, but we've all heard of fans being banned for using racial abuse, so why should a player be any different?
Paul McIntyre
18 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:14:27
Cheers Brian (#14).

Missed that so I knew mason had reacted to something significant (feared the worst) but puzzled by immediate allegations it was the N-word. It makes sense though as Mason was heading for at least a yellow for pushing RF never mind grabbing the refs shoulder. Madely heard the N-word and thought... "This is gonna cause a shit-storm if I'm seen to send the lad off when he's been racially abused."

Paul Kelly
19 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:23:39
Well said, Rob. It wouldn't surprise me if they all came out wearing tee-shirts supporting Firminho even if he was charged and found guilty of racism.

That would be the lowest of the low from a scumbag club with scumbag fans... oh, wait a minute!

Brian Williams
20 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:27:28
Paul (#18).

I totally agree with you with regard to the ref's actions. He basically shit himself and, looking at this from a totally unbiased view, Mason should probably have been sent off but the ref took no action for the very reason you suggest, IMO.

With regard to the penalty, they'll just say it's payback for Calvert-Lewin's one in the league.

Geoff Lambert
21 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:28:35
Brian (#14),

I said that last night, I could see him saying to Jonjoe, "He called me a fucking nigger!"

Brian Williams
22 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:37:27
Geoff (#21).

I think it was you I said to "Thank God someone else saw it."

Steve Dowdeswell
23 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:40:12
I have to admit I was puzzled over the Holgate/ Firminho incident at the time. You could see Firmino mouthing something as he saw the ball out of play and then Holgate react to it and shove him into the stand.

If Holgate told the ref he was racially abused by Firmino surely that should be in his report and action taken by the FA.

Also, as the deception by Llanana for the penalty, as this looked almost identical in the amount not contact against Niasse in the Palace game.

Did anyone else think it odd when the players were going off at half time that Milner was discussing things with the ref while covering his mouth – almost as if they were talking tactics for the second half...

We all know nothing will come of the allegations from Holgate and the penalty for the media darlings, so I can't see the club pushing matters too far.

Andrew Ellams
24 Posted 06/01/2018 at 10:53:43
If they get slapped with a second racism charge, the BBC will still crawl over them. Leon probably dreamt about Van Dijk all night.
Brent Stephens
25 Posted 06/01/2018 at 11:11:15
Holgate won't get punished as the ref saw the push and didn't punish it there and then.

And who was a credible witness to whatever was alleged to have been said (and there are all sorts of guesses flying around)? So no action will be taken there.

Chad Schofield
26 Posted 06/01/2018 at 11:13:54
Didn't SewerRat call Evra "Negro" (my.understanding is it's not as extreme as the other word that begins with 'n')...

The way Holgate reacted seemed more likely something like that. Again though, I couldn't actually see what Holgate said was said to him, so simply speculating.

Frank Crewe
27 Posted 06/01/2018 at 11:20:22
One of the drawbacks of having players from all over the world playing in the Premier League is that they can swear at you in their own language and, unless the ref is multilingual, he has no idea what is being said.

As for Lallana, he went down far too easily but, even if he got banned, it would be a price worth paying as they are still in the cup and we're not. They have plenty of players so losing Lallana for a couple of games is no great loss.

The only way to make clubs pay for diving is to reverse the result should the diving player's side win. The whole club has to pay and not benefit from one of their players cheating

Anton Walsh
28 Posted 06/01/2018 at 11:31:17
This is as bad as one traveller calling another a sausage. It's one of the worst insults out there. No quite as bad as calling a sausage a ding-dong.
Jim Bennings
29 Posted 06/01/2018 at 11:34:49
Investigation launched to see how a ladyboy that should be in Bangkok has actually been found impersonating a Premier League footballer, white-toothed ponce!!
Dave Williams
30 Posted 06/01/2018 at 12:05:51
Matt (#8) "What's wrong with people?" – I was asking myself the same question last night when reading some of the abuse of our players on the live forum.

We all get worked up watching these games but I do wonder why some "supporters" think it is acceptable to use the "c" word when referring to our own players. It's not as if it is an automatic impulse as they have to react then type it!

I can swear with the best but find abuse at this level shameful. As Matt said, what is wrong with people?

Charlie Lloyd
31 Posted 06/01/2018 at 12:07:25
Jim @ 29


Ian Cowhig
32 Posted 06/01/2018 at 12:11:17
Holgate is not going to have reacted to what Firmino said, while he was speaking in Portuguese. Most on here had to type the ‘puta' that was clearly mouthed in to Google translator.

So something followed after that. If it was the word that Holgate said he was called to Jonjoe Kenny, then the ref will also have heard it. And should if so tell the review board.

Holgate was stupid and rash with the push into the crowd. It is as dangerous as a two-footed challenge and was a sending-off in my view. And would have let the team down.

The Firmino part needs to be dealt with accordingly, if he is guilty, and not swept under the carpet.

Jim Bennings
33 Posted 06/01/2018 at 12:22:58
Yeah and let's hope they look at the successful deception of a referee by that Alice-banded "Nivea for Men" product puff too!!
Jim Jennings
34 Posted 06/01/2018 at 12:36:46
Steve Ferns (#3),

I can tell you with absolute certainty that he did call Holgate "filho da puta" which literally translates as "son of a whore" and is about as common an insult you'll hear in Portuguese. I could see that without a replay.

Holgate doesn't react to this. What is said after that I do not know because frankly I have not studied it back but Holgate only reacts afterwards when Firmino leans in. He may well have said something else but one thing is for sure, the relatively mild-mannered Holgate was enraged by it.

James Hughes (#10)

Utterly cretinous comment. To insinuate that racist comments are "a South American trait" is in itself a form of racism.

Ray Roche
35 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:05:01
Brent Stephens (#25),

If Madley heard what he regards as a racist comment from Firmino to Holgate and then sent Holgate off, he'd have the world tumble around his ears. I think he went to the 4th Official, Moss, to give himself some thinking time and decided that he couldn't send Holgate off because he'd have to also take action against Firmino... so just did nothing. Cowardly, in my opinion, but we saw that last time he refereed us.

James Hughes
36 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:21:06
Jim , didn't mean to infringe on your territory of cretinous comments, you do have first dibs after all.

I mean looks to me you are calling LLana a puff to me in your post #33. homophobia is fine is it.
I also began that sentence with Maybe not It Is a trait. So you carry on with name calling pal. After all being called a cretin by you is a bit laughable

Oliver Brunel
37 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:34:51
How to enrage RS fans. I was at the checkout at a supermarket and behind me is a guy with an LFC shirt, badges pinned on it and a woolly scarf around his neck. Looked a typical LFC scruff, no style. So I turn round and say ''That was a terrible dive last night."

He says "What you on about, Holgate was holding him.."

"No, I mean Firmino diving into the stands, you bell..."

Jay Wood

38 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:39:29
*** A warning to the sensitive: the following post uses strong 'adult language' ***

Being a fluent Portuguese speaker and following the game on a dodgy stream, I couldn't see clearly enough what Firmino said live last night.

This morning, reading of the claims of what he did say, I have searched out videos showing Firmino's angry reaction.

For me as he rushes towards Mason, he mouths the following in Portuguese:

"Caralho! Caralho! Filho de puta!" If he says anything after that, I couldn't see as his face was hidden by other players.

'Caralho' can refer to a man's penis (so in effect calling someone 'a prick!' or, more commonly, simply means 'Fuck'!

'Filho de puta' simply means 'son of a whore', or, to give it its more accurate English translation, 'son of a bitch'. Again, depending on the context and situation, it can be used as playful jousting with a mate, or really calling someone out as (the English equivalent) 'motherfucker!'

As is now the case with 'fuck' in the English language, depending on the situation and the intensity of how it is expressed, yes, it can be aggressive and insulting, but more commonly, it is used every day by all genders and ages to express mild annoyance to rage.

You bang your big toe against a table leg? "Caralho! That hurt!"

You look in the mirror and see a receding hairline? "Caralho! I'm losing my hair?"

You see Morgan Schneiderlin play another underhit sideways pass? "Caralho Schneiderlin! Filho de puta!"

Two things here:

1) Frimino for me clearly resorts to his native Portuguese in reaction to a very foolish shove into the crowd by Mason Holgate. Quite frankly, it was a completely understandable reaction to a very dangerous action by Holgate.

2) I very much doubt Mason Holgate's Portuguese extends to the above description I provide. Either he misheard or misunderstood what was actually said, or there was something said further I was unable to see.

My reading of the incident may not be a popular one, but I really don't believe Firmino has a case to answer here.

ps: Whilst not condoning Holgate's foolish shove, I have to say I did enjoy seeing the likes of Davies and Baningime getting involved and standing up for their mate, even encroaching on the playing area. We need more of that kind of bottle at Anfield.

Pete Clarke
39 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:44:08
It won't change another defeat to the rich media darling neighbours – no matter how much we scream about racism. It's another defeat in a season that promised so much and is giving us only glimmers of a few young players for the future.

Kenwright, Moshiri, Elstone and Allardyce can all get fucked as far as I'm concerned as they are running our club like pure ammeters. We need people who want to win and not just make money. Give me a fighting football team with aspirations of winning every game at Goodison than a powder puff team run by some gobshite whose sole intent is not to be beaten at a new stadium.

Just for the record. I have played football on the beach in Brazil and Firmino would be saying what he has probably said a thousand times in Brazil. The darker you are, then the more likely your to be called a nigger although this happens generally with the lower classes. I don't condone it at all but, being from Liverpool, I don't know how many times I have been called a scouse twat or cunt on my travels around the UK with Everton and work. It's not nice but there is plenty of give and take in this world.

Oliver Brunel
40 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:52:04
Excellent point, Pete. The BBC/Guardian reading dullards really only consider racism if it applies to black or Asian people.

It's not long ago the signs in boarding houses in the UK read 'No Irish, No Jamaicans'. It's okay to call the Irish whatever you want, or say 'Scouse Cunt' in East London; it's okay because the BBC hate them as well.

Any elementary reading of Anthropology will tell you 'racism' is a cultural construct and really is only made obsessive in countries such as ours because the middle class bores have no proper jobs to do.

Rob Halligan
41 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:54:08
Interesting piece in today's Red Echo about the Holgate - Firmino incident.


If this goes before an independent panel, then that's the end of it as they won't find Firmino guilty. Could be a different outcome for Holgate though.

Eddie Dunn
42 Posted 06/01/2018 at 13:54:34
Brian, if you remember, last night I also mentioned that I had read Holgate's lips – he clearly told Kenny, the ref, and others that "He called me a Nigger".

The BBC MotD panel did begin to discuss this issue at half-time but were probably advised to leave the subject alone later in the show. The Lallana collapse should be punished retrospectively unless (as someone else suggested above) the FA Cup is judged differently than the Premier League. I can't think why as it is the FA panel that sat on the Niasse case.

You can clearly see Firmino saying "Puta" but that wasn't why Holgate lost it. Others must have heard it too.

John G Davies
43 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:03:24
Oliver (#40),

That is one of the worst words in the English language. Don't trivialise it.

Paul Kelly
44 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:08:17
Eddie @42. Clarification of what you saw, IMO, on this link and to anyone else yet to make their mind up:


Pete Clarke
46 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:14:58
These players are in the heat of the moment situations and some handle it better than others.

Tell me how on earth did Eric Cantona not go to prison! How did Suarez not get kicked out of football for life! Probably something to do with the clubs they play for so hence why we will probably see Holgate charged for pushing Firmino into the stand.

I am not one of Wayne Rooney's biggest fans, and a lot of that comes down to how he left us for Man Utd, but, even though he was on big money playing and winning trophies for them, how on earth could he listen to those bastards sing "If you all hate Scousers, clap your hands" at every home game? I have zero respect for him whatsoever.

Last night's incident was nothing but it has managed to cloud over another defeat no less.

Ray Roche
47 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:29:00
Paul (#44),

That link only shows the first part of Firmino's tirade; when Kenny blocks our view of Firmino, he says something else and it is that which makes Holgate lose his rag.

Fran Mitchell
48 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:41:36
Firmino Said "filho da puta" followed by "você tá louco?..." ,

FDP meaning 'son of a bitch' when directly translated, but in the context is closer to calling him a 'fucking cunt'.

VTL meaning 'are you crazy'.

Couldn't see him say anything else. But maybe he did.

Paul Kelly
49 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:47:35
Ray (#44), if your scroll down there is another video of Holgate saying to Schneiderlin “He called me a nigger”, that's what it looks like to me.
Shane Corcoran
50 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:51:12
Pete, what are you on about? Kicked out of football? Prison?

That prick from Crystal Palace deserved what he got. If I was a professional footballer I'd be in the stand every second week with what some the cowards shout from the safety of their seats.

As for your comparison between called the N-word and a scouse whatever, although I see your point, the real difference is the historic connotations attached to the N-word.

Similarly, somebody calling someone me a lanky bastard or a ginger prick isn't seen as bad as calling me an Irish dog.

Fran Mitchell
51 Posted 06/01/2018 at 14:56:57
Correcting myself, he said "você tá louco" first, then follwed with "seu filho da puta" .

Kenny's head then blocks any view of what he said next.

Those saying he said 'nigger' seems at odds with the context, as he was speaking Brazilian portuguese, so to so suddenly switch to English would be odd. But he said something that certainly riled Holgate.

Racist Brazilian portuguese words are more like 'criolo' 'preto' or 'negro + adjective', but we have no way of really knowing.

Brian Williams
52 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:10:55
Fran (#51).

Think you may be referring to me as one of those saying he called Holgate a nigger.

Just so we're crystal clear, and not having a go honest, I said Holgate said "He just called me a nigger."

There's a difference. I was quoting what I believed Holgate said, not what Firmino allegedly said.

Holgate may be wrong, who knows, but that's what he said to Jonjoe.

John G Davies
53 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:15:09

Negao — Portuguese for the alleged name called. Phonetically the same.

Amit Vithlani
54 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:17:45
Paul @ 7

"I'd rather see Lallana charged with deception. "

You'd rather see Lallana charged with deception as opposed to what?

What are the choices you see?

Your post mentions Holgate. What does Holgate's altercation have to do with the Lallana penalty award?

Andrew Oxton
55 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:18:45
Holgate knows what he said (when Kenny's head obscured the cameras view). The ref was in between them both, therefore he also knows what he said.

Holgate asked the ref if he heard what he was called; ref said no. Holgate was shocked.

What a suprise. The ref bottled it. The reason he did not book Holgate for the push (it's a derby, more of that needed please) is because he was trying to calm the situation.

Nothing will be done about this is my guess.

Brian Williams
56 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:20:18
Can Lallana be charged, or is it only in Premier League games that rule stands?

Anybody know for sure?

Phil Bellis
57 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:32:07
So, "deceiving the referee"...

I think we'll find there's a threshold to be applied before submission to the reviewing panel and Lallana's simulation doesn't meet it...

Only if playing for a team outside the Sky pack,

Brent Stephens
58 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:37:54
Oliver #40 "The BBC/Guardian reading dullards really only consider racism if it applies to black or asian people".

Not true.

"Any elementary reading of Anthropology will tell you 'racism' is a cultural construct and really is only made obsessive in countries such as ours because the middle class bores have no proper jobs to do".

Do you have a reference you can cite in evidence of the part of that concerning middle class bores?! Sounds like a very elementary reading of anthropology!

Pete Clarke
59 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:40:17
Let's put it a better way for you then, Shane.

If Cantona had been in an Everton shirt that day, then he would have gone to prison... and likewise with Suarez, if he had been dressed in blue then he would have been banned for life. We are too nice and just take whatever comes our way.

As for the comparison. What comparison? Don't try to tell me that it's worse for someone to be called the N-word because of the racial context than it is to be called a Scouse, Geordie, Brummie cunt because it's generally said in a racial way. I am not one to get over-offended by it because it can be given back so no problem.

One thing is for sure – that the incident is another example of how things get blown out of proportion with TV and social media.

Eddie Dunn
60 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:55:20
Fran, myself, like Brian, are quoting what we saw Holgate say from the slow-mo replay. I did not see Firminio say it, but perhaps he did say it when his head was obscured.
Brent Stephens
61 Posted 06/01/2018 at 15:55:31
Pete (#59), "Don't try to tell me that it's worst for someone to be called the N word because of the racial context than it is to be called a Scouse, Geordie, Brummie cunt because it's generally said in a racial way".

I have been called 'a scouse bastard' and that causes me no more than minor irritation, if that. I'm white so have never been called by the N-word but I'm more sensitive to the feelings expressed by people who are called that word. If I hear somebody else being called by the N-word, I seethe. Absolutely disgusting.

Jim Jennings
62 Posted 06/01/2018 at 16:01:00
James Hughes (#36),

The comment you refer to is from Jim Bennings. Not me.

And what you said at #10 was "The RS have form for this, ratboy got banned for racist comments. Maybe a South American trait."

You are clearly implying racism is a South America trait. Like I said: cretinous.

Pete Clarke
63 Posted 06/01/2018 at 16:24:51
I think I said similar thoughts to your own in my post, Brent. We can dissect each and every post that comes through here and argue forever.

I know how things work in Brazilian society as I have spent time there. I watched a game of footy on a beach one morning and some of the names being thrown about were funny to hear from team mates: ladrao (thief); negao (black man); careca (baldy); malandro (scallywag or rascal) and many more.

These were all mates, by the way, and I then thought of when a gang of us used to play years ago in Liverpool and some of the language was unprintable. I am also sure that this goes on in every society but some are less sensitive.

John G Davies
64 Posted 06/01/2018 at 16:32:19

Call any of my black mates a scouse bastard and they would laugh. Good luck to anyone calling them a nigger...

Oliver Brunel
65 Posted 06/01/2018 at 16:51:35
Brent, I wasn't intending to defend a thesis but there are lots of indigenous communities who would behave in the way you would interpret 'racist'; ie, they have no contact with other groups and have lots of negative vocabulary for the 'other'.

I was implying that the western idea of 'racism' is relative to our culture. I wasn't defending or trying to minimise the appalling thing that racism is – not sure if you get my point but you could read almost any Anthropology of the 20th Century – Geertz, Bronowski etc.

In fact there is an argument (I can't remember by whom) that in an evolutionary sense the effective use of 'racism' was a means of protecting the 'group' from disease, access to hunting/gathering etc.

So, when Homo Sapiens marched out of Africa and encountered Homo Neanderthal in the Levant and then in Europe, they didn't inter breed, read the Guardian discourse, or ban the word 'Christmas' ; in fact we wiped the Neanderthals out. Was that 'racist'?

If it wasn't for a genetic fault we wouldn't have even had language approx 70,000 years ago... then Agriculture... then the State etc – and we would still be picking up berries, mushrooms and unable to call the next tribe 'twats'.

Brian Harrison
66 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:11:21
I don't know what was said but I was surprised by Holgate's reaction and, like the commentator, I just thought it might have been a reaction to the penalty decision. But at half time, when they went to the panel in the studio and started discussing what Holgate had done, Shearer said somethings been said there. They moved quickly on at that point, and that was the first time I thought maybe something was said.

I am sure the FA will ask for the players' version were Firmino will say he never racially abused the player and Holgate will say he did. Then the FA will come out and say they can't make a decision because of the conflicting reports and no further action will be taken.

Remember the stick the other lot gave Evra when he accused Suarez of racially abusing him, but it turned out he was right. Then Liverpool, being totally insensitive, printed shirts for the players to wear in their next warm up game backing Suarez.

Seeing Klopp last week applaud Brewster for raising the subject of him being racially abused, I will be interested to hear his take, although he will toe the party line of "Firmino didn't racially abuse Holgate". But you have to wonder what else could have provoked such a reaction – certainly not being called a prick, as I am sure he has been called before.

Tom Bowers
67 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:13:43
Will the idiots at the FA investigate the ''dive'' by Lallana? Of course not! They allowed Dele Alli to get off scott-free for his awful shinbone tackle a few weeks ago.... Go figure!

The top clubs always seem to escape these incidents most of the time.

Dave Abrahams
68 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:17:18
I was in the Aston Villa players lounge a few years ago with my son, Tony, we were talking to an English international black footballer. He was talking about another English international, they played for the same club. He said as part of the sentence "Oh, he's a proper nigger, him."

Me and Tony just looked at each other but we were very surprised as the lad who spoke was a pretty mild lad. I don't know if that word is common among black people talking about each other.

Ray Roche
69 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:21:56
Dave, from what I can see, it's used fairly widely in Rap music. But only if they're black rappers.
Mark Tanton
70 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:26:24
Dave, was it Tony Daley? Remember him murdering us on ITV Sunday match, in a 6-2 Villa win.
Brent Stephens
71 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:27:35
Oliver, I'm well aware of the social anthropology and the role of social constructs.

Your post #65 doesn't answer my question as to where is the evidence that "Any elementary reading of Anthropology will tell you 'racism'...is only made obsessive in countries such as ours because the middle class bores have no proper jobs to do".

Oliver Brunel
72 Posted 06/01/2018 at 17:52:46
Brent, you are presuming that your question is correct.
Brent Stephens
73 Posted 06/01/2018 at 18:12:49
Oliver, a question is a question! How is it not correct?!
Gordon Crawford
74 Posted 06/01/2018 at 18:15:55
The newspapers are now reporting that Holgate is homophobic. And it's the dark side supporters who have made this public. Let's see who gets the most media dressing down. They really know no depths.
Len Hawkins
75 Posted 06/01/2018 at 18:21:33
Dave Abrahams,

It is common for Afro-Caribbeans to call each other 'nigger' but if you or I did it, it would be racist and our feet wouldn't touch the floor.

My mate was talking to a West Indian woman who worked with his wife; a car went past and someone shouted "Hey Nigger!" and my mate was annoyed that someone should shout that, he looked at the car and it was a West Indian who shouted it – she just laughed and waved.

This is what annoys me – we are racist if we say that but the recipients of the racism are not if they say it. Surely it has to work both ways or not at all.

Barry Williams
76 Posted 06/01/2018 at 18:36:47
Did anyone else find it a bit off that Danny Murphy mentioned benefits in reference to the Everton fan on crutches?
Barry Williams
77 Posted 06/01/2018 at 18:45:57
Just an interesting point. I was teaching in Azerbaijan many years ago, it was on an inshore oil terminal. We got talking about different people around the world and I found out that the N word was used to describe black people quite often in Russian by Azeris.

I really rammed it home to my students that they couldn't use this word in English as it would cause a lot of offence to a black person and they'd more than likely end up on an altercation, or being disciplined/sacked from their job. It took a lot of persuading from me for them to realise the seriousness of using the N word.

Now, would I be racist to suggest that Azeris are more likely to use this word than an English guy? Interesting. I had a similar discussion with a Sunderland friend of mine over the Suarez incident; my Sunderland friend had spent a lot of time in Central America and Argentina. These things go beyond language and also include cultural differences.

However, after travelling a lot, you need to know what is culturally acceptable in the culture you are in. Never pat a Thai on the head, like I did in Japan when play fighting, unfortunately the guy I tapped on the head was the 9 time ex-kick boxing champion of Thailand. Fortunately, for me at least, he was a friend and took into account my possible ignorance on the matter!

Jay Woods

78 Posted 06/01/2018 at 19:20:47
Barry Williams, my wife is Russian and she says that in Russian (or the part she comes from) you normally can't describe anyone as "black" ("Chiorny") as that implies they are covered in filth or dirt, etc.

It's something you would say to reprove a naughty child that has been rolling in coal dust: "te chiorny" ("you're black!")

An exception would be the term "black Americans" rendered through a hyper literal translation, and I think most educated Russians will understand what is meant, but some older ones might think it means Americans in need of a wash.

Many Russians instead tend in common speech to use the term "nyecr" to refer to black people; though it sounds off to native English speakers, it carries no stigma in the Russian language and is used in polite company.

It has no natural root in the Russian language as far as we know, and appears to be the Russified form of the archaic Iberian word.

Accordingly, you can see why Russians with a loose grasp of English might throw the word out (even in its stigmatised English form) and find themselves, through naivety, on the receiving end of censure.

One final note. In Russian, the colour blue can be rendered with one of two words: "galaboy" (which, from my understanding, applies to Napoli blue and paler) and "sinye" (which would be royal blue and everything north of it). If anyone says that you are the former, it's a slang pejorative meaning homosexual. Just so you know (in case you didn't already)!

Jay Woods

79 Posted 06/01/2018 at 19:22:33
Oh, and Barry... never pat a Russian on the head either. It represents humiliation, as if you're calling them an idiot.
Barry Williams
80 Posted 06/01/2018 at 19:32:24
Jay Woods- [LAT]

As you say Jay, literal translations/cultural interpretations can cause a wee bit of a faux-pas, hence my Russian-speaking students initially being a bit perplexed at me saying they couldn't use their 'N' word to describe blacks as it didn't really cross over the cultural threshold too well!

When teaching Japanese the word 'chin', they would invariably raise a smile, 'chin chin' in Japanese is slang for penis! I think my brother had a similar issue teaching Greek students the word money. With his scouse vowels it interpreted to something rather rude, resulting in his teenagers having hysterics. He had a few issues when he spoke Greek accidentally calling people things he shouldn't!

I had a student in Vietnam called Thuat, but pronounced 'twat', and the cool thing was, he really was a Thuat!

Thanks for the heads up! I generally don't pat people on the head anyway, seems a bit weird; I think it was being brought up on Benny Hill!

Jack Convery
81 Posted 06/01/2018 at 19:33:31
Best not to speak or do anything at all.
Alan Bodell
82 Posted 06/01/2018 at 19:46:20
John Ronnie (#2),

'Outraged By Everything, Ashamed Of Nothing', go on the Everton Flags google and that flag is there, its been my desktop background for months.

We had a good go last night so we're going to break this against them next time for sure.

Brent Stephens
83 Posted 06/01/2018 at 20:49:47
Barry, if remember rightly, when Bristol Polytechnic achieved university status, it was suggested it be called Bristol Cabot University, after John Cabot, the Bristol explorer. Until it was pointed out that cabot in Greek can mean condom. That put a cap on that.
Barry Williams
84 Posted 06/01/2018 at 21:04:37
Brent Stephens - 83

'A Bristol explorer' has connotations too!

Definitely too much Benny Hill when I was growing up!

Amit Vithlani
85 Posted 06/01/2018 at 21:20:51
Allegedly, there are tweets on Holgate's twitter account which are homophobic in nature, screenshots of which were shared by RS fans before he deleted his twitter account.

These were made in 2012 or 2013.

So someone has sat on these awaiting the time to bring them to Media attention at the same time as the alleged racist incident is being investigated. Either that, or they had a good scroll through his twitter feed to find something against him.

If the FA investigation does not find evidence of racism, but a seperate investigation finds Holgate guilty of homophobia (similar to Andre Gray) then Holgate could pay a heavy price for his altercation on Friday.

Barry Williams
88 Posted 06/01/2018 at 21:40:44
Anyone got something to say about Danny Murphy's comments on the Everton supporter on crutches celebrating and benefits being mentioned, or is that okay?

I used to, and occasionally do still work for an organisation that is so politically correct it is untrue. However, I heard a lot of anti-scouse 'humour', but nothing was ever said. Selective phobias/isms are always on play and it is rather hypocritical to say the least.

That said, I also think people are looking to get offended these days!

Rick Pattinson
89 Posted 06/01/2018 at 21:44:15
Barry @88 I pissed myself when Danny Murphy came out with it. A touch of wit from such a boring man
John Keating
90 Posted 06/01/2018 at 21:58:00
Barry everywhere I go I hear all that stuff. Go to a meeting all dressed up and guys who have hardly left their pads in Knightsbridge come out with all that shit: "New suit? What time you have to be in court" etc etc etc. I just laugh it off or play along. Usually walk out with their Montblanc or Dunhill pens!

Actually, I was more surprised the obnoxious little man agreed it wasn't a penalty.

Rob Young
91 Posted 06/01/2018 at 21:58:37
It would be interesting to see how LFC react having rightfully given their full support to one of their youth players, Brewster (?), who has opened his mouth about the ongoing racial abuse in football.

Honestly, if it was one of our players I couldn't support him at all after that.

Holgate's reaction said it all, first I thought he been spat at but, as that wasn't the case, he must have said something.

Brian Williams
93 Posted 06/01/2018 at 22:18:55
I just really really hope young Mason wasn't mistaken in thinking what he thought he heard. If that turns out to be the case, things could turn out bad for him.

The Mirror are already running a story quoting lip reading experts who have "found no evidence" of Firmino racially abusing Mason.

Barry Williams
96 Posted 07/01/2018 at 00:30:29
Rick Pattinson – (#89),

I did myself, but it does highlight the hypocrisy!

Barry Williams
97 Posted 07/01/2018 at 01:14:02
John Keating (#90),

Preemptive strikes was and is my way of dealing with the all too predictable anti-scouse jokes that inevitably come your way when dealing with these people who think they are being funny and original. I will give you some, though you may have heard them all!

What do you say to a scouser in a uniform?
A big mac and fries please.

What do you call a scouser in a white shell-suit?
The bride.

What did the scouser get for Christmas?
My fuckin' bike!

Why shouldn't you run over a scouser on a bike?
It might be your bike!

Why does the Mersey run through Liverpool?
If it walked it would be mugged!

And the final all encompassing joke to also include our Irish and Scottish friends.

A Scotsman, an Irishman and a Scouser are sitting in a bar when Jesus walks in.

The Irishman buys him a Guinness, the Scotsman buys him a scotch and the Scouser buys him a Higson's bitter.

After finishing the drinks, Jesus approaches the 3 chaps. He puts his hand on the Irishman's head, says 'Bless you my child'. The Irishman jumps up and exclaims 'It's a miracle, thank you Jesus, my arthritis is cured!'

He does the same to the Scotsman. He jumps up, exclaims a miracle and shouts 'My sciatica is cured!'

As he approaches the scouser the scouser jumps up and says 'Fuckin' back off, mate, I'm on benefits!'

I usually reel these off in quick succession, thus stealing the would-be funny chaps' thunder!

Don't give up the day job etc!

Paul McIntyre
99 Posted 07/01/2018 at 01:25:38
Amit... I think you have answered your own question at 54 in 85..

The Firmino investigation will go nowhere for a range of reasons, including but not limited to lack of evidence, provocation, RS bias. As you say, Holgate may not come out of it unscathed.

Meanwhile, Lallana engages in an obvious deception which fundamentally changes the outcome of a football match. Such acts are a scourge on the game but only safe targets such as Niasse are charged. Dare I say, more of a scourge than the occasional South American half-wit with a foul mouth / twisted mind.

Jack Convery
100 Posted 07/01/2018 at 01:25:55
As an EFC player is involved, it will be us who end up in the dock – mark my words. It will just stoke the hatred up another couple of notches – not that it needs it.

Did anyone see Tom Davies when their fans started screeching at the ref and Holgate – talk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Barry Williams
101 Posted 07/01/2018 at 01:32:33
Paul McIntyre (#99),

He was actually jumping the moment he was touched or just before it possibly. He was looking for a penalty, got a penalty, conned the ref, so should be banned. Will he be!!??

Eric Myles
102 Posted 07/01/2018 at 01:34:48
Barry (#80), and don't forget the Vietnamese name Phuc where the ph is pronounced as an F.
Barry Williams
103 Posted 07/01/2018 at 01:40:44
Eric Myles (#102),

It may start sounding far-fetched now, I lived in an apartment block called My-Phuc in Saigon, thus pronounced me-fuck!

Bit odd saying it to taxi drivers!

Eric Myles
104 Posted 07/01/2018 at 02:12:25
Barry, there's a famous Vietnamese restaurant in London called Phat Phuc's.
Barry Williams
105 Posted 07/01/2018 at 02:22:26
Eric Myles (#104),

Brilliant! Hong Kong has a lot of good ones too, but being 2:20-ish in the morning, I can't think of 'em!

Amit Vithlani
106 Posted 07/01/2018 at 08:35:49
Paul @ 99,

"Amit... I think you have answered your own question at 54 in 85. The Firmino investigation will go nowhere for a range of reasons including but not limited to lack of evidence, provocation, RS bias. As you say, Holgate may not come out of it unscathed..."

1. I did not answer my own question. Read my post again. I said Holgate might find the FA Investigation finds nothing on one hand regarding Firmino but might potentially look into his Twitter posts. Because both are serious matters – Racism and Homophobia are not tolerated at any level of society and so the FA will fully and rightfully investigate both. Where does the Lallana penalty award, which relates to the outcome of a football match as you acknowledge, fit into this?

2. You state as fact that the FA will not find against Firmino. How do you know for sure? Also, what if Holgate was genuinely racially abused but the matter is, as you imply, swept under the carpet by the FA? Should we all take it lying down?

3. Holgate indeed may not come out unscathed but he deserves punishment if he did anything homophobic. However, he would still deserve a fair hearing by the FA on the racism matter, does he not? And also they should investigate allegations of Homophobia should they not?

4. Lallana cheated of that there is no doubt. But back to your post 7, what is this "choice" between his cheating in a football match, and the potentially serious issue of one human allegedly insulting another due to the colour of his skin, or indeed the alleged homophobic tweets? I put to you that we do not know for sure if Firmino did insult Holgate – his mouth is obscured by Kenny when Holgate reacts. That will be for the FA to investigate and find the truth, which it should do in the most rigourous manner possible. I hope you agree?

5. Someone somewhere chose to either sit on the tweets allegedly made by Holgate or troll through his twitter account. This will undoubtedly scar Holgate if he is found guilty. That was the point of my post in 85. However, Holgate deserves to receive punishment if the allegations are true. The fact that the tweets are brought up so many years after being made shows us how social media can be used at specific points /incidents, but it still in my book should mean (a) Holgate gets a fair hearing on the racism matter (b) the homophobia allegations are properly investigated and any deserved punishment handed out.

Steve Cotton
107 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:08:29
The LFC propaganda machine is already in full swing... defending Firmino and dredging Holgate's past. It has tentacles everywhere including sports writers in most papers... if you are big enough with followers everywhere (like the RS) then you can change public opinion quite easily.

At least 3 members of the video appeal panel have LFC allegiance... says it all.

John G Davies
108 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:17:11

Expect a retrospective red card for Holgate and a homophobic charge.
Absolute nap.

Colin Glassar
109 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:17:28
Watching RedShite journo Andy Dunn on Sunday Supplement having a meltdown over the Coutinho transfer is quite funny. The hypocrisy of the man is stunning.
Steve Cotton
110 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:20:51
Probably, John – they always come out of it smelling of roses. They should have been charged with tapping up Van Dijk but somehow got off with it by dropping their interest. 5 months later on, he signs... so they didn't drop their interest – just kept it better hidden. They should be retrospectively charged... guess the outcome!
Alan Bodell
111 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:27:45
Steve, some Blues got a great flag 'Liverpool FC – Outraged By Everything – Ashamed of Nothing', it's on show on the Everton Flag site on google along with 'The redlight district of Amsterdam is the same as Anfield – full of cunts', I went to Rotterdam in '95 and remember that one.
John G Davies
112 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:46:05
Seen a cracker but can't remember where.

"We will never have your trophies.
We will never have your shame"

Steve Cotton
113 Posted 07/01/2018 at 10:50:36
Alan, I hope you mean 85... I was there too mate!

Great occasion; will we ever see the like again?

Alan Bodell
114 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:10:27

No; '95 at the De Kuip when that fuckin Reggie 2 Blinkers and Henrik Larsson scraped it but it was fun arriving back at the city train station with those Alsatian dogs just salivating at the thought of tearing a chunk off your leg and their police were loving it.

I never made the '85 but it was probably just as much fun.

Andrew Ellams
115 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:34:00
I see The Sun is the original source of the homophobia story. Revenge for the fallout from the Kelvin Mackenzie - Ross Barkley story?
Phil Sammon
116 Posted 07/01/2018 at 11:50:29
I wish everyone would stop wheeling out lip-reading experts. Whatever was said was blocked by Kenny’s head.
Rob Halligan
117 Posted 07/01/2018 at 12:01:59
Exactly Phil, and that's the reason why Firmino will get away with it. Unless the referee heard it, it's basically Holgate's word against Firmino's.

The Sunday Mirror reporting that an "expert lip reader" has looked at six different clips and cannot see any evidence of racial abuse from Firmino.

Even at the time, I just couldn't understand why Holgate wasn't booked, which does lead to me believing Madley did hear racial abuse from Firmino.

Keith Harrison
118 Posted 07/01/2018 at 12:13:51
I thought that at the time, Rob, especially as he had gone to the fourth official, who must have seen the second shove.

Bet Holgate gets banned for both the shove and any tweets, and ABH damages paid to Firminio out of the Victims of Crime funds.

Keith Harrison
119 Posted 07/01/2018 at 12:19:05
Barry, 97. I'm not a scouser but do get all the usual stuff when wearing EFC gear in holiday. Missus bans me from wearing it unless watching a match as it can get really arsey.

Unrelated, but I made this one up before Christmas:-

Just been sacked from work on the day we were due to finish for Christmas for profound deafness. I could gave sworn the young girl on reception said "Would you like a quick kiss under the camel's toe!"

Happy New Year all blues.

Jeff Armstrong
120 Posted 07/01/2018 at 12:22:18
Rob, I agree that Madley has not booked Holgate because he has indeed heard the comments from Firmino, not as a tit-for-tat thing but as a subconscious response. He's already had enough crap here, he's basically bottled it and left himself open to all kinds of speculation. I just hope Kenny has heard it too, because I believe if he did, Lallana has heard it as well.
Barry Williams
121 Posted 07/01/2018 at 13:44:47
Keith Harrison (#119),

The best compliment you can get for a joke is if someone uses it, which I will!

Keith Harrison
122 Posted 07/01/2018 at 14:02:47
Patented pal. I'll give you the address for Royalties.

A mate of mine was at Carisle races when a bloke asked him if he would like the winner of the last race.

He said, "No thanks pal, I've only got a small garden!"

Kevin Dyer
124 Posted 07/01/2018 at 15:15:52
Total sideshow this.

Holgate was angry and frustrated at the bogus pen award against him. His ridiculous shove on Firmino was dangerous and could have caused a serious injury.

For that and the reaction he was very lucky not to be sent off. I was expecting and dreading it. Not to be even booked was astonishing. The ref either did him a favour die to the pen and his age, took into account the allegation of racism or shit out and left it to the FA. Take your pick.

The replay of Firmino's reaction you can clearly see him mouthing "puta" (or similar), which is "bitch", saw that first replay. Couldn't see any use of the n-word. Considering how many people were surrounding the two, it's hard to believe only Holgate heard this comment.

My take is that Holgate misheard Firmino, who seemed to be speaking in Portuguese hence his reaction. No way I believe that he was actually abused.

Paul McIntyre
125 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:03:27
Amit – I pretty much agree, although I acknowledge the op suggested a choice (using rather..).

I guess my wider point is that cheating is a much wider problem. Not more serious or worthy of investigation. The FA have shown for years they lack the bottle to sort it.

They will however be very keen to scrutinise Holgate's social media output from when he was a boy...

Chris Butler
126 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:00:05
I don't know how this has gone off to what Russians think the N-word means.

Firmino used an racially offensive word to Holgate during an altercation. He knew what he was doing, a bit different from somebody, in a country where there are no black people, making an insensitive comment.

Andy Meighan
127 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:57:18
Doesn't matter what got said or what went on. We're out the cup and lost to the worst shower of twats going. End of.
Roger Helm
128 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:08:47
So this is what the “beautiful game”, the game of Pele and Moore, Stanley Matthews, Bobby Charlton, Alex Young & Co has come to – discussing whether a heavily tattooed foreign mercenary said 'nigger', 'son of a whore', 'bitch' or some other pleasantry? Sometimes I think I am too old for this game.
Si Cooper
129 Posted 08/01/2018 at 03:54:56
Steve Dowdeswell (23) – the shove into the crowd came before Firminho said something that Mason Holgate interpreted / heard as ‘nigger'.

I have no insight into whether Holgate has heard correctly or not but I seem to remember the Suarez ‘defence' was that he used a word which is supposed to translate as the descriptive ‘little black man' and be, therefore, merely insulting in context rather than racist.

I'm no expert and I'm definitely not judging this situation, but is it possible that Firminho used such a word and would that just be casually insulting (angry as he was) or should it be considered racist?

Eddie Dunn
130 Posted 08/01/2018 at 18:37:47
Wouldn't it be marvellous if the referee confirms Holgate's allegation in the inquiry? He was right in the middle of it all, and surely more ears must have picked-up what was said.

I also wonder what was said between Madely and Moss (the 4th official)? Could Moss have possibly advised Madely to not use any cards so that the FA could look into it? It could have been a bit of buck-passing, but understandable in the white-hot moment where red cards could have enraged all and sundry.

We shall see in due course, but I have little faith in the governors of our game to come to a fair conclusion.

Brian Williams
131 Posted 08/01/2018 at 19:01:04
The more I hear/read, the more I worry that Mason has been mistaken, in the heat of the moment, about what he heard.

I don't think he can be retrospectively punished for the push as the ref dealt with it. I just wonder if it's possible, should Mason come to the conclusion that he was in fact mistaken, for him to withdraw the allegation of racist abuse and make a statement that would "smooth things over"?

Don't get me wrong – if Firmino did say what Mason alleged, I want to see the book thrown at him but, as I said, I fear he may not have said it or, if he did it, was miraculously not heard by the ref, who has already said he didn't hear the word used.

Stan Schofield
132 Posted 08/01/2018 at 19:03:43
I'm not really interested in what was said between two grown men in the heat of a football match. What I am interested in is the habitual cheating and corruption in the modern game. In this respect, I'm interested in Lallana's dive, and whether that will be punished as Niasse was punished.

On the subject of cheating and corruption in the game, it's ironic that so many posts in various threads have commented negatively on Allardyce because of his financial affairs, whilst the game overall is rife with cheating in virtually every match, together with what is effectively cheating by managers like Klopp, who consistently gets in the face of match officials and then spouts such biased nonesense.

There's a term 'bringing the game into disrepute'. Well, these cheats are doing it day in, day out, and the responsible authorities do nothing about it. Because of the power of money, especially for some of the 'top-6' clubs.

Will Mabon
133 Posted 08/01/2018 at 19:21:26
Forget actions. It's all about words now. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will kill me?

Maybe they could fight it out by a shouting match. Hurling insults til the loser is eventually offended to unconsciousness. Behind closed doors of course, in a controlled environment, so no innocents are accidentally offended.

Paul Kossoff
134 Posted 08/01/2018 at 20:38:48
Barry Williams 97, your not a scouser then? Or are you a big Cilla Black fan? Or Jimmy Tarbuck? They made a living out of belittling scousers! Your excuse is??
Colin Glassar
135 Posted 08/01/2018 at 21:23:27
Paul, I think you’re missing the point of Barry’s post. He preempts the wits with his amazing wit.
Brian Williams
136 Posted 08/01/2018 at 21:28:22
That's the way I read it too, Col. Beating the anti-Scouse jokers at their own game sort of thing.
Colin Glassar
137 Posted 08/01/2018 at 21:30:42
Exactly. I think Paul’s got his knickers in a twist over nothing.
Barry Williams
138 Posted 08/01/2018 at 22:25:44
Paul Kossoff - 134

Born in Bootle, see Colin 135/Brian 136!

Beats getting aggressive or angry as then you just play up to people's stereotype of you!

Brent Stephens
139 Posted 08/01/2018 at 22:30:06
Paul (#134) – the rest us of could see what Barry was doing – preemptive, as Colin says. We could see it – your excuse?
Mike Dixon
140 Posted 08/01/2018 at 22:42:36
Stan (#132),

You open a can of worms that no-one wants to discuss.

You are right. While the riches are on tap, integrity will forever be cast aside. We will never see the beautiful game again.

Brian Williams
141 Posted 08/01/2018 at 22:50:45
It's true. Money is the root of all evil. The more money there is involved the more evil things get.
Dan Davies
142 Posted 08/01/2018 at 22:59:02
Check out Mail Online, Martin Samuel, who I'm guessing is a definite RedShite on Mason Holgate.

What a prick. Unbiased fair journalism is alive and kicking, I see.

Stan Schofield
143 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:09:20
Mike@140: Last year I had a red posturing to me about the matter of whether Everton should support Liverpool in banning The Sun. Of course, he said we should, and that I should be supportive as an individual.

I said to him, I'll support you lot in banning The Sun so long as you boycott the entire Murdoch empire including, of course, Sky. That is, provided LFC comes out publically boycotting it, and encouraging reds to not purchase Sky packages, etc.

His only response was was "Don't be ridiculous", to which I just said "Don't bother posturing to me about morals when the morals are financially convenient ones." There's always a way to shut them up.

David Barks
144 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:10:08
Dan Davies,

Martin Samuel is a life long West Ham supporter, but don't let that stop your paranoia. How Holgate wasn't carded for that push was surprising to every single person who saw it.

So to make this easy. No, the media are not all biased against us and supporters of Liverpool. And no, the referee isn't a kopite, or biased against us when we play anyone else.

Barry Williams
145 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:15:41
Stan (#132 & #143),

Speaking a lot of sense, mate. I have been saying similar things for ages, you start feeling like a bit of a conspiracy theorist with a victim complex.

Dan Davies
146 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:19:22
How do you know these things, David?
Dan Davies
147 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:21:16
By the way, the second paragraph came from your brain not mine.
Stan Schofield
148 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:22:17
Barry @145: To me, it's just a case of exposing the hypocrisy and inconsistency of posturing idiots.
Roman Sidey
149 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:22:34
Fran, having slight competence in at least two languages, I know that it certainly isn't out of the realms of possibility or even probability for a person to switch tongues mid rampage, especially when trying to offend. I am by no way saying Firmino said the N-word to Holgate, but him speaking Portuguese in one sentence wouldn't negate him switching to English the next.

In response to those bringing up the Rat Boy incident against Evra, didn't he say "negrito" which is Spanish/Argentinian Spanish for "blackie"? I have very little knowledge of Spanish, but I thought it was explained at the time that it wasn't as bad as the N-word.

Even if it is a racial slur, in my opinion, a native Spanish speaker using a Spanish slur against a native French speaker is not near as disgusting (although it is definitely disgusting) as a native Portuguese speaker using an English slur against a native English Speaker.

Dan Davies
150 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:33:24
David, you must have some very special mental abilities to claim 'every single person'! WOW! What a man.
Barry Williams
151 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:39:37
Stan Schofield – #148,

How much is a Sky package these days? How much is a copy of The Sun? Therefore, which consumer is the morally worse? The Sky subscriber or the Sun reader?

I wouldn't have had a problem with Niasse getting banned for diving if there had been some consistency. Was he really the only one guilty up until that point? And yes, why hasn't Lallana's dive been scrutinized?

I actually hardly ever watch games anymore that don't involve Everton. The game has been massively ruined for me. I was working in Sri Lanka earlier this year and I think Chelsea were playing Man Utd. I was in a bar having a pint and a bite to eat. I didn't stay for the second half as I got so annoyed at the histrionics, cheating, feigned injuries and my plain dislike for almost every player on the pitch!

What annoyed me as much as the players were the officials who bought into it and the commentators who didn't call it out, they even legitimise the behaviour with their comments, like this idea that it is okay to go down in the box if you feel contact. I mean really, that is okay!!!????

David Barks
152 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:45:54

Because you're not the first person to read a journalist saying something about an Everton player, in this case that Holgate's blatant two handed push of Firmino at full speed over the barrier and into the stands, and immediately say “obviously a kopite”. You don't actually know anything about him, but you have no problem making a claim that he's simply a Liverpool supporter and therefore disregard anything he wrote.

So this is from an old piece he wrote about West Ham, just a snippet. Link

“West Ham lost 4-1 and it could have been 24-1. Tbilisi went on to win the tournament.

Of course, it's hard to be wholly thrilled watching your team get pulverised, so my favourite game would have to be April 14, 1976 — West Ham 3 Eintracht Frankfurt 1. Another European Cup-Winners' Cup tie, the semi-final this time, and 2-1 down from the first leg. It never stopped raining, the pitch was a bog, but Trevor Brooking floated across it, scored twice and West Ham won 3-1.

So, farewell Upton Park. There wasn't a terrace I haven't stood on — even the away end after turning up late and following a claret-and-blue scarf through the wrong turnstile when we played Aston Villa — not a stand I haven't sat in, and we did have some laughs. There used to be a bloke who had season tickets behind my dad. He used to eat apples, talk and curse the players at the same time, so he'd inadvertently spit the bits into your hair. His claim was that he had never missed a home game since the war.”

There have been other times he mentioned it, on radio interviews in the past too, but rarely. Because he is a journalist, not lobbying in favor or against one party because of his club affiliation. I often don't agree with him. But I don't disagree out of a belief he is bias and therefor I'll just not read or listen anymore.

Dan Davies
153 Posted 08/01/2018 at 23:54:47
But how do you know, David? I mean West Ham aren't exactly the most successful team are they?

Maybe just maybe Mr Samuel has a soft spot for them?

If it was the other way around and Mason had got gently nudged into the crowd, would he have wrote the same article?

Hmmmm, I wonder?

David Barks
154 Posted 08/01/2018 at 00:02:48
Dan, you're making a fool of yourself. He wasn't gently nudged into the crowd. He was pushed with both hands in the back while running at a high speed toward the barrier. Live in your idiotic and sad fantasy world where Martin Samuel is a secret Liverpool agent all you like.

And in case you haven't noticed, Everton haven't been very successful for three decades either.

Dan Davies
155 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:11:57
Have you read the article? Do you think it is a fair representation of the situation David?

Or would you say it's slanted towards Holgate or the racist South American?

Stan Schofield
156 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:14:12
Barry@151: Similarly, I only really watch Everton games. I'm actually not very interested in football anymore, but I am still interested in Everton. By that, I mean, I automatically look at Everton games without thinking about it, but don't even think to look at other games, unless they just happen to be in front of me on the TV in the pub and I'd have to make an effort NOT to look at them. In short, I suppose I can't really be arsed anymore.

I was talking about this with a Man City supporter this weekend. He's obviously chuffed with City these days, but at the same time he doesn't like all the acting and cheating in the game, including that by City players. This has dented his enthusiasm, but supporting City is in his blood so to speak. So he's similarly minded to me, even though City are being very successful.

Eric Myles
157 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:17:41
Barry (#151), Stan (#156). Ditto from me.
Dan Davies
158 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:19:19
Running at high speed? I thought the reason Mason gently tapped him on the back was because he had slowed down purposely to stop Mason getting to the ball?

We must live in different worlds, David. Must be a Kopite me. I agree with Stan Collymore.

Barry Williams
159 Posted 09/01/2018 at 00:21:58
Stan Schofield (#156) & Eric Myles (#157),

Yes, I fell out of love for the actual game itself some time ago. I still hang in with Everton, blame Bob Latchford and his hattrick against Palace in 1980, my first game at Goodison!

Luckily, I still have the boxing to get me enthusiastic!

Stan Schofield
160 Posted 09/01/2018 at 11:14:54
Barry, I suppose another factor for me is you seldom get a really entertaining game of football, in least when I did watch more regularly.

The City fan I spoke to said he watches ice hockey more than football these days, because you always seem to get an exciting game. I had to agree with him.

I suspect there's as much cheating and corruption as in football, but if it's at least entertaining then that's something.

Roger Helm
161 Posted 09/01/2018 at 12:47:14
Like Barry and Stan, I still support and go and watch Everton, but all the rest of football leaves me cold, for all the reasons given above. I rarely watch a game on TV not featuring Everton any more, which is a bit sad because I used to be mad keen to watch it all. I prefer rugby league these days (also a STH), which is a better spectacle as well as a more honest sport.

Re The Sun — isn't it time to give it a rest? I don't read it myself anyway, and I know it was bad, but the issue in question was decades ago, and all the editorial staff will have changed by now. It’s getting like some Sicilian blood feud.

John G Davies
162 Posted 09/01/2018 at 13:12:35
The Martin Samuels article is at least an over-reaction. Headline "Would the FA act on violence if Firmino had broken his neck?"

Then a few lines down: "If on Tuesday morning Firmino was in hospital with a broken back..."

Next one, talking about the push: "The fact it could have ended his career or changed his life irrevocably..."

Next one: "We hardly need to speculate further about any injury."

In the next paragraph, he changes his mind and "speculates" that Firmino "could have broken his neck."

And on and on.

Clearly a one-sided article from Samuel.

Barry Williams
163 Posted 09/01/2018 at 13:58:17
Stan Schofield (#160) & Roger Helm (#161),

I have heard a few Evertonians lament about the state of the game, but they still watch and follow Everton, me included. The last time I truly watched another club was Hull, just because Niasse was there and I was intrigued as to whether he could actually kick a ball or not!

Yes, boxing for me is corrupt, but the protagonists are everything a lot of modern day footballers aren't. Even the likes of Mayweather, who is quite unlikable, will get the thumbs up from me, why, he has substance and there isn't any play acting/cheating going on.

Charles Brewer
164 Posted 10/01/2018 at 09:23:42
Judging by today's Times, the outcome is likely to be: a 3 match ban with compulsory re-education for Holgate, because he tweeted stuff which Jamaicans say all the time when he was 15.
Brian Williams
165 Posted 10/01/2018 at 15:54:49
I genuinely wanted to find out if it's officially homophobic to call a mate a faggot or a batty boy. I came across a couple of interesting articles. The first involving Rio Ferdinand:


The second was a random one I came across.


The second one caught my attention because the author states:

You don't get to impose your own meaning on words and use them on, or against, other people... at least not while holding the ignorant belief it will go without ridicule — that the context you're using it in is excusable. You can't reclaim something without a thorough understanding of where it came from and the problem surrounding it. And the fact that you use it so carelessly leads me to assume you don't have that thorough understanding.

And yet the homosexual community do just that by, instead of using the term 'homosexual', using the word 'gay'. 'Gay' never used to mean 'homosexual' but it's now a term that homosexuals readily use to refer to themselves. Is that not a case of homosexuals imposing their own meaning on words?

Either way, if Mason Holgate is banned for some ill-advised tweets between friends or acquaintances from when he was 15 years of age, then I despair for the existence of common sense!

Stan Schofield
166 Posted 10/01/2018 at 16:17:52
Brian, I don't know anything about the tweets, but if they were between friends and acquaintances then presumably that's not public dissemination, in which case I would have thought he couldn't be banned.

In any case, it is a separate matter and a diversion from the issue that was actually raised by Holgate.

My take on the controversial events of the game is:

(1). Lallana should either have been sent off for diving, or, given that he wasn't sent off and a penalty was awarded, he should be investigated as Niasse was.

(2). Holgate should have been sent off for the push on Firmino. He was no doubt pissed off with the penalty decision, but he should have kept his head.

(3). What was said between Holgate and Firmino is between two grown men, with no dissemination more widely, and as such is irrelevant.

The controversy had its roots in (1), which is yet another example of the cheating that is ruining the game. Everything else is a diversion from that central point.

Barry Williams
167 Posted 10/01/2018 at 16:58:26
How is it in a match were there was a blatant dive for a penalty against Everton, a possible racist slur against an Everton player and we end up with a player being investigated for something he said as a teenage boy?

Am I being a paranoid Evertonian!?

Willheim 2nd, Hitler, European ban, Niasse banned for diving before anyone else! Peter Johnson! Graham Poll! Everton fined for opposing fans rioting etc!

Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean you aren't being watched!

Oliver Brunel
168 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:19:28
Barry (167) just as there are hegemonic nations, the USA, Germany, France etc, there are also hegemonic teams, ie, Chelsea, Manchester City, Liverpool, Manchester Utd. They create the discourse of the Premier League and provide a lot of the wealth from TV, merchandising etc. They therefore demand biased refereeing, changes to TV schedules, leniency from the FA etc.

Everton are the Switzerland of the Premier League, not really accepted into the club, regularly cheated by referees and the Premier League, ridiculed by the media (Talkshit, The Sun, BBC etc).

As Joe Strummer once said: "You either become a power or you get crushed."

Shane Corcoran
169 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:20:37
What's all this about Jamaica and tweets.

Holgate should have got a yellow for the push at most.

The biggest one for me though is the Lallana dive. Nobody, yet, as told me how this and Niasse's incident differs in any way.

I'm not one for the Sky 4/6/23 or whatever conspiracy theorists come up with to back-up the "exclusion" of Everton but such people are given plenty of ammunition when Lallana isn't charged.

Does anyone know who I might contact to get a reason as to why he wasn't?

Barry Williams
170 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:57:23
Oliver Brunel - 168

It seems the way!

I prefer the Lemmy Kilmister slant on things ''Just cos you've got the power that don't mean you've got the right!''

Shane Corcoran - 169

I am one such person!

Stan Schofield
171 Posted 11/01/2018 at 22:30:03
Shane @169: I don't know the answer to your question, but if and when you find out, I wonder if the procedures (for alerting the authorities to what looks like a dive) include supporters being able to directly raise the matter of deceiving the ref? Someone must have to raise the matter in the first place.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.