FA could investigate old Holgate tweets

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2006/oct/02/radio.bbc

The second was a random one I came across.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/casey-cavanagh/an-open-letter-to-people-_b_8011324.html

The second one caught my attention because the author states:

You don't get to impose your own meaning on words and use them on, or against, other people... at least not while holding the ignorant belief it will go without ridicule — that the context you're using it in is excusable. You can't reclaim something without a thorough understanding of where it came from and the problem surrounding it. And the fact that you use it so carelessly leads me to assume you don't have that thorough understanding.

And yet the homosexual community do just that by, instead of using the term 'homosexual', using the word 'gay'. 'Gay' never used to mean 'homosexual' but it's now a term that homosexuals readily use to refer to themselves. Is that not a case of homosexuals imposing their own meaning on words?

Either way if Mason Holgate is banned for some ill advised tweets between friends or acquaintances from when he was 15 years of age then I despair for the existence of common sense!

If he'd tweeted "he's a fat bastard" would he be in trouble with every overweight person who happened to be born out of wedlock?

How about providing decent pitches for grass-roots football that isn't submerged with dog turds or waterlogged due to under-invested drainage!

If racism or homophobia is present then by all means punish the offenders as it is no way acceptable but it feels as if every comment or written word is constantly under censor and scrutiny.

I'm so glad there's no record of what I said and did as a teenager and student.

I am by no means racist but you can't even have a joke or banter with people anymore for fear of falling foul of the rules.

Minority groups are far more dangerous than the average man in the street,.

No mention about either incident at the dung heap last Friday.

Of course, all homophobic, racist, sexist, misogynistic comments should not be condoned. But that does not mean punishing a 21-/22-year-old for comments made when 15.

Insensitive maybe, but not homophobic.

Last time I checked, there's no law against insensitivity.

The word "homosexual", because of it's clinical history, is deemed offensive and mainly, imo, used by people in an aggressive and insulting way.

And finally, I think I was in trouble with yourself for using the name Fat Sam recently which you deemed a derogatory term?

Is it just me or is anyone else in the UK just bored shitless by the liberal inquisition?

I've only worked hard all my life and paid fortunes in tax and National Insurance for all those years and not caused any bother to others or asked for anything.

This country is now a politically correct shithole where people are looking for excuses to be offended.

I seem to remember the Fat Sam thing, yes. So tell me, when are you up in court for that? When does your ban on here begin? How long have you been out of work after being fired for using the FatSam name? See how ridiculous that would be?

There was another footballer quite recently who tweeted or posted in a homophobic manner. He said something about "burn all gays". That's homophobic. Calling someone you know a faggot or a batty boy most definitely isn't. It's not right but is calling your mate 'a fat bastard' right?

Incidentally, a guy I know states that he's homosexual because he considers the word 'gay' (his words not mine) ... "so gay". So, while I respect your opinion, that doesn't mean your opinion suits all situations and, after all, is the view of one person in this instance.

I certainly don't use the word in an aggressive or insulting way. I use it because I believe it's the correct word and not a derogatory one used 40 or 50 years ago.

He should have tackled him like Funes Mori.
.

Only kidding, heard a news story on the radio this morning about the armed forces having to look into other areas for recruits, as they are 'under-manned' – I was half expecting a news item condemning that comment this evening.

There was an incident in my job when a lesbian worker called a heterosexual female a "Breeder". When a complaint was put in, the heterosexual female was told to stop being over sensitive.

One of the uses of language is insult. It is a normal and socially useful function. Which is more than can be said for the totalitarian PC culture which infests our most useless public bodies, such as the BBC and the FA.

The way social media seems to operate these days, unearthing whatever Holgate once tweeted many moons ago could be the work of any bedroom-bound geek who's not seen natural light or clean underwear in weeks!

It fits our narrative of course for a red to have done it, and I'll be as hopping mad as the next man if Holgate is banned for some infantile crap he posted as a teenager – after all, we know footballers aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer on the whole anyway, even less so when they're adolescents!

But to conclude from these rumours that a coordinated Red Shite effort is behind this does seem a little far fetched... doesn't it?

Was Giggs punished for his alleged affair? How far do you go?

Whether it's Catholics vs Protestants, Christians vs Muslims, Capitalists vs Communists, Public sector vs Private sector, Black vs White, Straight vs Gay, Male vs Female, Young vs Old, it doesn't matter, the politicians love it. It takes focus away from the real issues, the really big fish to fry, like corruption in government, arms dealing, drug dealing, and the associated vested interests of the powerful.

And the problem is, a lot of people fall for it time and again, hook, line and sinker.

Firminio is a Brazillian gentleman with a penchant for teeth whitening and occasionally allowing himself to utter words of dubious racial reference. However, he plays for Liverpool and therefore he couldn't possibly be guilty of being anything other than a true professional, who is ever-so-slightly misunderstood.

I will be first in the queue to buy A Firminio T-shirt when Klopp comes out with this bold and original initiative. All we really need is one gigantic collective hug. So, my message is to find your nearest Kopite and give him/her a big hug. Then the world would be a much better place…..Ahem!

We have always be told what we can and cannot say and do. Could you swear at school or in certain social situations? For long was blasphemy a problem? For much of modern history people couldn't vote or compete for certain jobs because of their skin colour, gender etc etc. It is odd that now the grievance is criticising words that have the capacity to hurt people – i.e the normality of homophobic words. And I was at school in the 90s and words like batty etc were commonplace. Anyone outed as gay in my all boys school would have gone through hell. Less masculinised boys were bullied and subject to these terms.

Holgate's words are a product of that – a way of disciplining and regulating people through words and that is changing now. But he was 15 and 16 - it is not the same as saying it when he was an adult and we've all said stuff in the past we'd hate to be brought up for all to see. It doesn't deserve a ban – just the warn him about future conduct bullshit.

My concern would be Holgate risking a red in the first half in our most important game of the season. He needs to mature in that respect.

At least I hope so. God knows what the 'jumpers-for-goalposts' old boys will make of it at the FA, though I only hope that they make a statement to say they have been alerted about it, they have considered it, and they have decided that it is neither a matter for the police, nor is it a matter for the ethics committee.

For an old cynic, reading what I'm just about to post does sound a bit naive though. Sadly I think that common sense won't prevail here.

I too dismiss the argument that all this is "totalitarian PC culture" to quote Charles Brewer. I live in a country that has never been more conservative or bigots more emboldened, and in which the infantile insult is the president's daily style of communication. Yet the awareness of race-, gender- and religion-based abuse is at an all-time high. Basic respect isn't a PC value, it's something that every human being should be entitled to.

That said, I don't believe Holgate should be suspended for the stupid things he said as a kid.

So you appear to support homosexuals who are allegedly offended by being referred to as homosexuals and then proclaim you will continue to exhibit weight based discrimination by referring to our slightly calorifically challenged manager as "Fat Sam."

I'm horrified and feel "third party harassed."

Don't calorifically challenged people have feelings too? :-0

I'm in my late 50s now and am aghast by some of the things I said in my 20s and 30s.

It's all about cultural and personal development.

Nothing to see here move along.

My Netflix appears to be recovering so I'll say goodnight.

"I DO".

Don't think you've said them in your 50s yet.

You are on the invite list.

Dorothy Parker famed writer and critic in the 1930's said, "The do-gooders of the world are the louses of the world".

The do-gooders in today's world are the politicaly correct people who, in most cases, would be better minding their own business. (That is, if no-one minds.)

It's 2 separate issues/cases... they're going to need a lot of boots to jump on everything every stupid 15-year-old says... at that age, you're pretty much the definition of stupid. Some even grow out of it, probably not jounos or FA Officials though.

If the FA decides to make Holgate pay dearly for juvenile jibes that anyone in his bracket did by rote at the time, then shame on them! The male brain is not fully developed until at around 22-year-old. The part dealing with risks and consequences is the last one finished! I wonder how history could tell us that one is quite on the mark?

If the UK would jail anyone for those tweets, at that tender age, then there is nothing we can do! But if parroting any kid's phrases/slang in his neighborhood, is to condemn a more adult individual, then we are all defenseless!

If Holgate is guilty of homophobia based on historic social media then every players history should be investigated and treated accordingly though god knows what punishment could be handed out.

This smacks of the "offended by everything and ashamed of nothing" brigade.

Shearer and his family were getting slaughtered by that crowd just because he disagreed with the pen decision. The whole thing is a joke.

I'd like to say that making the tweets of a 15-year-old kid the focus of any investigation is frankly ridiculous, but I am afraid of stooping to the depth of sheer hysteria I've had to hear from our neighbours ever since the derby.

If I was any high profile person I would not have any social media accounts in case I was persecuted for the rest of my life if I stated something wrong at any time. At times like this, it is good to be a nobody.

Like most of us I despise racism, homophobia, sexual harassment or sexual abuse in any shape or form but these days it's become an excuse for people to retaliate against anyone they don't like or are jealous of and in some cases an excuse to extort money.

Once an accusation is made public, the accused is generally thought to be guilty come what may.

It is time for common sense to prevail but I fear the posting of anything and everything on social media has become a disease for which there is no cure as yet.

This stadium is killing them, they are gonna dig and dig, critiscise, debate, redicule, belittle etc etc just like the playground bully. Its up to us to stick together, promote, encourage, reason, stand tall and hold our ground. We have had a shit 5 months of the season but now is the time to move forward.

When I read that Liverpool fans have spent their time going back 5 years to dig dirt on a young lad that was not eligible to vote, could barely make beans on toast, I felt pity for them, I really do. Never mind the FA getting involved. Shameful to say the least.

Those were the days of the friendly derby. Tough but fair games without any of the hatred we see today.

Correct, Dave. As designed from the very top. "They" will have us totally nailed down in not so many years with words and -isms at this rate. Divide, conquer, and reformat society.

How many "Genders" are we at now in Snowflake world, thirty-odd and climbing? "Gender" is being used as the word, the concept, to blur, separate and pare down what people naturally, biologically are... their sex.

Social engineering in full swing. Sadly, too many are gobbling it up (no specific gender-offending connotation intended). It's going to get worse in the future, you'll need an app to tell you which bathroom room to crap in.

Correct there also, Jay. How did all these minority groups appear in recent decades - just organically grow from committed people's desire to right perceived wrongs: Or was there more to it?

How do they always seem to receive prime media coverage? Why does the "Law" seem to increasingly be on their side? How come they're promoted as being representative of a much larger aspect of society than real life experience would appear to indicate?

Was there a background supporting force behind all this? There was, and there is. A little off-mainstream research will reveal the truth for anyone interested.

What in the hell are you suggesting?

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/top-grammar-school-bans-pupils-called-girls-case-offends-transgender-students-104622401.html

Is this just local authorities "Nannying", copying each other or being "Out of step/knee-jerking/pandering to feelings"... schools and local authorities just simultaneously addressing gender identity "Issues". Or is there something pushing it all?

People sleeping on the streets, a whole generation struggling to house themselves. Disabled people having their benefits reduced. Swathes of the population earning minimum wage. Huge post-university debts. Working in the middle of the night Sundays for single time, minimum wage. Zero hours contracts. And more.

Meanwhile, young people are being "Helped" to question their gender identity. What's driving all this lunacy? Is it just, happening?

Now, was he racially abused by Firmino? Right now nobody except Firmino and Holgate knows. What I do know is that we're getting nothing more than speculation and a witchhunt and that's disgraceful mishandling.

If Holgate maintains he was racially abused then I'd hope to hear something from the club and the FA.

What really needs to happen in this investigation?
- Ask Holgate what was said. If he says it was racist, then go to the next step.
- Ask the ref what Firmino said while his head was turned. Doesn't know? Next step.
- Ask Firmino what was said. Not racist? Next step.
- Check the video angles. Not conclusive? Move on.

Release a statement that the facts cannot be established and publicise Kick it Out.

That could all happen in about an hour.

Divide and conquer? Put everyone in a bracket at a young age, have enough brackets, people are divided.

I live away from the UK a lot, and believe me many communities just don't have a community anymore. When I left my town in Liverpool in 2001, my area had 5 pubs that I would go to depending on the occasion or who I was with. Forward to 2018, how many are left? Zero! Not to be replaced!

Also, at what age should kids be discussing their sexuality!!?? Rhetorical question!

Back to things Everton, yes what is happening confirms my paranoias/suspicions!

Am I allowed to say drag??

All young people should be educated in the proper use of social media and its pitfalls.

The FA should issue a statement to the effect of “the FA are committed to eradicating all forms of discrimination from the game. Whilst we are investigating the alleged comments we would emphasise caution in coming to any conclusion. We have issued guidelines to all clubs regarding education on players in the use of social media platforms”.

15/16 year olds are not always aware of how their actions affect others. An ill advised tweet does not make a child a homophobe, it makes them naive. That is not to say excusable either.

I find it funny that the FA are not interested in the Liverpool player shouting either son of a bitch or whore, depending on how you translate, at another player on camera? Given the current climate surrounding the treatment and attitudes towards women I would have thought that the use of such derogatory terms would be at least worth a rebuke?

Perhaps it would help if an aggrieved fan made a direct complaint?

It's one of their favourites being accused so all kinds must be thrown at the fan to confuse the matter. So what's new?

The nature of Facebook and Twitter has changed since it emerged, the reach of an innocuous comment previous would be your mates. Now it can go worldwide in no time. In this case people have actively tried to find something to pin on the lad and seem to have had some success. If someone managed to find my old school work books, I imagine they would have found far worse scribbled on the inside covers!

The reaction of the RS fans to the incident was shear hysteria. this "He could have killed him" nonsense is typical of your average Kopite. The fact that the young Brazilian didn't have a mark on doesn't seem to have registered.

I loved the way Young Mason stood his ground in the face a player who's rage seemed to be fuelled by the outrage of a couple of thousand RS in the stand... does anybody here doubt they would have cheered if the roles were reversed ?

I wouldn't want to condone Holgate’s actions. No sir, Not me... but if he wasn't my favourite player before the game; he is now.

I'm skeptical that 'fans' dug up the Holgate tweets, and as per usual it was highlighted by the Mirror, the RS mouthpiece. I wouldn't be surprised if the paper was fed this info from the club. The media scrutiny now has basically tarnished Holgate's reputation and labeled him a homophobe. From digging up a couple of tweets made by a teenager, they've successfully questioned his character in front of the national media. Basically, they've gone about discrediting him and turned him into a hate figure. Technically there's proof that he's a homophobe, but Firmino can't be proven to be a racist, so he comes out of it looking good.

It's funny how an off the cuff remark from Morshiri has caused a huge uproar in the media, and even on here. Lyndon covers it great in the AGM thread, but it's amazing how a comment can get blown completely out of proportion. Isn't it funny how it's been twisted now that its a racial comment towards a play of African descent? Conveniently making our owner look like a racist, again directing attention away from other racial incidents. Even the slightly bizarre Joe Anderson/Barkley story makes national news, making us look slightly ridiculous. All these stories have sprung up right after the Firmino incident, coincidence?

The RS PR team have loved this as it's drawn coverage away from the whole Lallana dive. Remember the uproar for the days after the Niasse dive? I believe he was charged either the tue/wed after the game, mainly due to the constant media attention it brought. While 99% of the media said it was a dive at the time, somehow all the other junk that's gone on has overshadowed any interest in that dive.

How many rs pundits are there on radio and tv? How many rs have newspaper columns? How many rs (who are not regular media contributors) are constantly called upon by the media to comment on anything rs related? Tons of them!!!

Ffs, Stevie Me lar is constantly in the papers regarding his work at their academy. Their fucking academy!! What other academy coach ever gets a mention in the press?

Holgate, Moshiri and any other Evertonian is on a hiding to nothing if they ever dare bring LFC into disrepute. In a way, I admit that slimey bill has managed to avoid any controversy with that shitty club over the years. He knows how the cookie crumbles with the media.

Long overdue.

If a single article appears in a newspaper column or on the internet allowing comments, then their supporters fill it with vile and personal attacks immediately…

And another thing while I am ranting, we support them 100% over Hillsborough, it's like we are all one. The next day, they are slagging us off every chance they get. Makes me think about not backing them next time...

It's a "yes" or a "no". There cannot be any grey areas. So get the fuck on with it and let's play football.

Yes, I am peeped off with the whole subject!!!

Just shows how vile and nasty kopites are.

What riles me most is the “holier than thou” attitude these people have who are so offended. I bet they've never said something offensive or insensitive.

My brother is at college and the tutors can't even say “boys and girls” whilst addressing the class.

The pendulum has swung so far left that the right feel the need for a Trump. Divide and conquer.

Anyway, I was in town a couple of years ago and mentioned these wool figures and compared them to be like Robertson's golliwogs. Jesus, I nearly got lynched. Called for everything and initially never realised or understood what I had done.

Obviously a generation thing with no offence made.

Pity that you now have to think so much before speaking...

The way Klopp went apoplectic (and made a fool of himself) after the derby league game contrasts with his attempted diversion after the FA Cup game. This is the problem with the modern games, cheats like Klopp who's showmanship and histrionics are always geared towards gaining an unfair advantage. A very ugly form of gamesmanship, which goes unpunished, and therefore reeks of corruption.

"Rush, you ugly big-nosed turncoat, kopite, Welsh bastard"

I can't have that! He did not have a big nose; he just had a small face.

Yes, there is clear bias, but despite that, they still can't win anything. At least we haven't spent anywhere near them, despite the signings in the summer being questionable, so there's a good reason for us consistently finishing 10 points (on average) below them.

At least there's a chance of us learning and progressing from the experience of the summer window, but they never seem to learn and haven't progressed. Their 'customers' are frustrated even more than us.

The last time I suffered homophobic abuse I offered out the knuckle dragging cretin ‘man on the street' in question, offered to rearrange his face for him and he soon backed down.

That said Mason was 15-16 at the time, has probably grown up and I don't agree with censorship. But this stuff, if you say it, should never go unchallenged in a civilised society. To compare calling someone fat or ginger (or Mancunian or scouse) with homophobic or racist abuse is not comparing like with like.

Joking aside, people don't tend to get beaten up, locked up or murdered for those things and that still goes on all over the world if you're gay or from the wrong ethnic group. And I say that as someone who lives in Manchester, and used to be a tubby kid. 😀 #coyb

ps: An Evertonian is an Evertonian, end of.

Off topic - I remain optimistic that the, hopefully, inexorable path to an inclusive and supportive society that celebrates the entire diversity of human experience and where minorities feel no threat of continued physical or verbal abuse, is supported and understood by the majority of people.

On the other hand, I logged on to TW and thought I'd stumbled onto Breitbart. I hear that Bannon is looking for a new gig, maybe he can cover away games?

Let's check racism, sexism, homophobia at the door, folks, and focus on what unites... footie and EFC.