Bramley-Moore demand and how to grow it further

We have also seen Spurs overtake us with swagger and reds probably winning the title this year.

It's what I would describe as a supposedly more patient style, less cut and thrust, less in the oppositions face, and mostly less engaging for the spectators?

It seems to be played by most teams now, with the real exception, being over the park, where the crowd seems to have woke up again, after years of people saying the Anfield crowd was a myth?

Back to the thread, and Paul, seems to have done a lot more research than me, because I personally wouldn't go over 55,000, but what do I know?

I'm aware Liverpool is growing, I'm aware Everton will always have the potential to become massive again, but 55,000 just seems a great number to me.

A 60k capacity stadium will put far more financial pressure on us than we will recover from the extra seat revenue. West Ham being the perfect case – they struggle to fill their stadium and reduce walk-up tickets to ٣ in order to tempt people. Our stadium would operate at a loss if we had to discount tickets like that, as we don't have the cheap lease West Ham do.

As for corporate capacity being lower than Liverpool, well yeah. If you worked for a large company wanting to impress overseas clients etc, would you take them to see Liverpool play exciting football, possibly in a Champions League game, or would you take them to see Everton v Brighton on a chilly Monday? Hard choice isn't it.

And walk up capacity is the same scenario. If we build the new stadium and accommodate the 10k waiting list for season tickets, guaranteed a large chunk of that 10k are the current walk-up sales! And again, if you were visiting Liverpool for a long weekend break from Germany, USA or London, and wanted to see a game as a neutral, would you choose Liverpool or Everton?

This guy lives in the clouds!

Juventus are in a 40,000 stadium and its not holding them and Ronaldo back is it?

For me the key thing is the quality/design of the stadium not the capacity.

I personally think 55 will be all we ever need. We will never be the reds, as you say correctly.

The point is that it is fans who create atmosphere but empty seats undoubtedly have a negative effect. Empty seats indicate a lack of interest which is a negative not only for the atmosphere but also for the look and feel of the game for TV and sponsors. One of the many reasons for the decline of the FA Cup is that games are often played at half empty stadia. An example yesterday was at Bramall Lane where whole stands appeared deserted. Some clubs abroad, such as Sporting in Lisbon, opted to use a multitude of different coloured seats to mask below capacity attendances for most of their fixtures

Around a year ago I was very much in favour a 60,000 stadium because I believed with better facilities, sight lines, ease of access and a successful team we could fill it. Paul has described the ways and means by which the club could generate the increase in demand required. The word ‘could' is however different to the word ‘would'. There can be no certainty in any of this. As soon as the perception develops that it is easy to buy a ticket for a decent seat on a ‘walk up' basis the risk is that demand for season tickets will reduce. The club will then be in a vicious circle of having more tickets available in the walk up category and ‘hard to sell' games become even harder to sell.

So now I am in the ‘open to persuasion' camp. The club has yet fully to set out the evidence in support of the 52,000 figure. It would be interesting to hear their arguments in favour of 52,000 as opposed to 55,000 or 60,000.

Using history and Kings Dock stadium plan, the years have flown by and generally EFC has been in slumberland in terms of building plans to take the club forward to the future.

Our greatest chance to move forward and build for the future. I hope the plans get approved for a 58-60k stadium, as to go with 52k, plus 8-10% of capacity for away fans, the potential to attract the up and coming and foreign visitors will be less and my main point is the cost to upgrade/ rebuild the stadium economically to add another 10k.

Surely it's cheaper to build an optimum capacity and keep the costs down?

60k would enable the club to host concerts etc and other revenue generating events, but all considered is their some caveat for the echo arenas, venue potential, that's unwritten?

Until plans are approved I'm cautiously optimistic, but paramount priority is for success on the park.

I hope the 4th round draw is kind tonight to EFC.

The best stadium doesn't have to be the biggest. Some of the NFL stadia vary dramatically in terms of capacity and design but they are all awesome in their own right.

They are massive when it comes to day-trippers, or a weekend away for the foreigners, but you only have to go back to Benitez, before he won the Champions League, or Hodgson getting the sack because only 35,000 turned up for a fixture on New Year's Day, to see that a lot of modern fans, mostly follow the excitement, which they hope will eventually lead to glory?

Nearly 18,000, tickets are sold every matchday at Anfield, says The Esk? I have to agree with John @9, and say Everton, might end up creating a vicious circle for themselves if they had more of this type of ticket.

James #6: Nice of you to simply disagree and not throw insults around. Clearly your arguments are not flawed in any way whatsoever. We'll have a brand new, iconic riverside stadium so why not take clients to a game when Man Utd, Man City or Arsenal are playing in this beautiful stadium rather than Brighton on a chilly Monday? By the time the stadium is built, who knows what kind of football we'll be playing or what competitions we'll be in? You're comparing the here and now but things may well be a lot different in 3/4 years time.

If the club goes for the lower end it will show a complete lack of ambition and begs the question of why are they bothering, at all, as Goodison could easily be redeveloped to this figure for a damn sight less expenditure.

#3 Thanks, Michael, as I'm sure you are aware the point I am making is it is eminently possible to have a good atmosphere in a less than full stadium. However as I have explained at length, there should really be no excuse for less than capacity, certainly for almost all Premier League games if the product, marketing and pricing is correct.

#6 James, what can I say?

Thanks for all the other contributions. I understand many have different views, but I think there's value in having a wide range of views expressed - the club reads these pages, so, in my opinion, the more input from fans the better.

Look forward to more views being expressed, thanks for reading, always grateful for your time in doing so.

I think the club was right to increase the number of season ticket holders, don't get me wrong. I am just making the point that there's a big number of casual fans who may be lured back by the new ground.

Can't wait for the new stadium so that I can get back to going to the game again on a regular basis!

Well for a start. Paul, you can counter what he is saying.

You put together a really interesting article. James may have left a foot in, but if you can put that aside, he too has made some valid points.

Don't give us half a debate. I for one would be interested in your response.

I can't see the flaw in Paul's argument personally. A brand new city centre (ish) stadium will no doubt attract corporate match goers. Imagine if the immediate BMD area has a number of good hotels, bars and restaurants - it will absolutely attract your tourist type fan.

A 60,000-seat stadium does not put more pressure on us financially assuming the extra capital is provided by shareholders, not debt. As a result of the extra capacity, it provides greater revenue opportunities, increasing the net income available to the club. It should also resolve some of the affordability issues that will arise out of a 52k stadium, and it should allow for a greater premium seat capacity (see below).

West Ham is a totally different scenario – essentially, they have their stadium for almost no cost; it is a terrible environment to play football in and to watch. However, because there is no financial burden arising from the stadium they can give seats away which ultimately can devalue all the other seating.

If we have a positive match going experience to offer, we will never have to discount to the degree they do. Any Blue who has attended a match there will tell you what an awful experience it is.

Regarding premium seating, I have consistently argued for a minimum of 10% of capacity. The premium seating product is a suite of products and work has to be done to create a series of experiences to suit different budgets. This requires senior executives with experience of creating demand and maximising yield. There are countless sporting clubs and other businesses that do this as a matter of course. We just need the right people employed to do it in the future.

Regarding walk up – 10 years ago when we had a smaller number of season ticket holders we regularly sold 7-8,000 walk-up seats for every game – most of which offered the wort views and facilities at a price substantially higher than season ticket holders were paying.

To suggest that we could sell 10k walk-ups in a modern, iconic stadium is far from unrealistic, particularly if ticket selling techniques deployed in the US for example are introduced here. There are so many unused marketing and demand-creating techniques in football stadia that are used in every other capacity constrained, time-sensitive service and product-providing businesses in the UK and elsewhere.

I fear the club has become accustomed to a limited view of what is possible, and to some extent that is mirrored by segments of the fan-base.

We are a professional sports organisation in the most popular club football competition on the planet. We have an incredible history, an amazing story and brand; soon (we hope) to be housed in an incredible stadium.

We are well funded – the only thing that limits us is ourselves – it's time to be aggressive and assertive where we are currently weak and submissive. Others have done it this past 30 years, why can't we?

I must have been to Upton Park 20 odd times, but I must admit I have never been to the London Stadium. I have heard some very bad reports about the place, including on here (I think it was Rob H).

To be honest, when I read James's comment about West Ham letting tickets go for a fFiver, I was shocked and alarm bells started to ring. They're a great club, West Ham, and like us, have a very loyal fan base. So if they are having to virtually give tickets away...?

Having heard both sides, I tend to lean more towards your argument. I know most clubs offer concessions of some kind and think it's good that groups like pensioners and school kids are catered for, but I think you're right: we are offering something very different to West Ham and I don't think we need worry too much about other seating being devalued.

Originally, I was in favour of 61,878; now, I am not so sure. I am leaning towards 55,000 with at least 10% corporate.< Until we see the finished plans, everything is guesswork. Maybe the future 10,000 expansion will be mostly corporate, as with Liverpool. According to the latest green guide, the capacity of the safe standing sections could increase by 50%. The build needs to be future-proofed to take advantage of this.

There's a good possibility that the internet giants will be broadcasting all matches in the next few years for far less than Sky and BT charge. Many people will take advantage of this, especially for the less attractive games.

Secondly, remember that an iconic, well positioned stadium, always full, on the River, a figurehead of redevelopment... in other words a very attractive financial proposition for any future sale of the club.

I am sure that is in the very forefront of the board's mind, protection of investment, minimisation of outlay, maximise potential – an insurance policy if you like.

So, it's not all about bums on seats, it's selling a sizzle to fans now, and making money in the future... I wonder the value of a fully subscribed stadium in Bramley-Moore Dock and the waterfront of the Mersey in 5 or 10 years time..

Yes, deliver the goods (a stadium) but always leave them wanting for more, add on the potential for expansion and you have the perfect sales pitch. It's called good business.

Ultimately, we all want the same thing, a successful football team and a great stadium to watch them. All we are talking about is how it is best achieved, but I would say we need maximum ambition, albeit backed by sound logic, research and funding.

I've been sidelined for most of this season and, although it's great to be able to watch the games via the Internet, 90 minutes on your laptop will never compete with going the match for the day.

I've been logging on to the live forum during the games and most on there would kill to be at the match.

It's got to be one of the worst new stadiums I've ever been too. It was great for what it was built for, the 2012 Olympics, but as a football stadium, it's rubbish. The dug outs, as we still prefer to call them, must be a good 15 - 20 yards from the touchline. As you've also probably seen on tv, the stands are yards away from the pitch.

The away section has an upper and lower tier, but the two tiers are miles apart. There is very little atmosphere and, believe me, we've been in the upper tier and cannot hear the Everton fans in the lower tier.

The London stadium is also miles away from the nearest tube station, and after the match, it must have been a good 30 minutes walk to the tube, only to be met by an enormous queue.

So, as I say, great for the Olympics, but shit as a football stadium.

Regarding the Internet, I am talking Amazon Prime and Netflix who, when they start streaming games, you will be able to watch full screen on your TV.

Us lesser mortals are glad we have such free-thinking and thoughtful compatriots as fellow Blues.

Well done. Oh, by the way, I agree with your points!

If they can't get a ticket for the RS, they could come to the 60,000 all-seater riverside iconic stadium at Bramley dock. As I am sure we could fill it with Blues fans... Not.

As a result of your latest post and the comments of the posters above, I have to say that I am persuaded we could probably get 60k perhaps for 5 or 6 games and 50k plus for the remainder of our home games.

I was going to suggest that 55,000 would be a good compromise but, after the comments at the AGM, I think it is going to be 52,000. It appears to me Moshiri has had the sums done and he has been told and believes this is the best option.

The good news is that it now looks certain to happen which is great news for Evertonians and the City of Liverpool.

We must now look forward to seeing the design which I have a feeling is going to be terrific.

I am one of those experiencing exactly the problems detailed by Steve and just in my own wider family there are at least four others who can't wait for the new stadium but fear that this issue hasn't been understood, never mind investigated, and therefore may not be able to go to matches unless they purchase a season ticket.

I agree with your points. There will be many thousands of Evertonians who don't attend many matches but would go a few times a year at a new stadium.

I rarely get to go these days, but would happily make the time and money a few times a year if I could actually see the game. The same goes for my kids (who I've only ever taken to a real game once) and my dad (who says he will never pay 㿔 to sit in Goodison). My dad was a season ticket holder in the '60s and regularly went up until the '90s. He went to the magic weekend at St James's Park a couple of years ago and said he'd never set foot in Everton until they modernised it, after seeing St James's Park.

As for the comparison of a cold Monday watching Brighton... How about a hot summer's day in the heart of Anfield, or a hot summer's day on the waterfront in the city centre? I know which I'd prefer.

Coldest ground I've been in, is Boro on a Boxing Day, and it's probably got something to do with it being by the river, but I often go to my mates garage by Bramley Moore, and it's f.f.ffuckin freezin, during the winter months, and that's on the other side of great Howard st.

Anyway, according to last nights AGM, it's not going to be that long before we see some stadium designs, but if I'm still alive, then I will be going to that big “Outdoor shop” on my way to the match!

Apparently, the club is assuming a 2:1 ratio in those safe-standing areas, i.e 10,000 rail seats convertible to 20,000 standing places (leaving 42k seats). The problem is, if new legislation stipulates just 1.5:1, then suddenly you need 20,000 rail seats to realise 62k capacity (leaving only 32k fulltime seats), or settle for just 57k capacity from having 10k rail seats.

Our problem is that, in relative terms, we charge buttons, and still have only had a waiting list for a couple of seasons. I've had little or no problem forfeiting my usual seats for cup games, and picking up decent seats on general sale in other sections, often almost last minute. Obviously the club have all the data regarding numbers of individual ticket purchasers, supporters clubs, clicks on websites etc going back years. They should have a real handle on our potential in terms of general admission, and have several rules of thumb to help guide them on corporate. This can also be flexible/expandable if sufficient concourse space is provided.

It's true that it's a bit of a walk to and from the ground. It's also true that the stands are back from the pitch, and the dug outs are far from the pitch also, so it's not a typical football stadium in that respect. I was impressed by the atmosphere though. I was expecting it to be like a library, and the West Ham fans made a fair racket throughout.

One thing I remember a West Ham fan telling me is that, when they moved there, they hadn't defined which area would be the family enclosure etc. They were just trying to sell as many season tickets as possible in a ‘pack them high, sell them cheap' fashion. This meant you had fans who wanted to sing and shout mixed in with fans who didn't want to sing and shout, some people effing and blinding mixed in with families with kids etc. Before long, the fans were all arguing with each other – there were fights in the stands between West Ham fans themselves!

I hope the club bear this in mind when we move. I understand we are going to have a big home end, similar to Dortmund's yellow wall. That will effectively be the Gwladys Street. It's important we still have a main stand and a family enclosure when we move, as well as corporate, to cater for everyone.

I don't know why we'd build at one capacity only to occur further costs when we expand, which we plan to do. Obviously they have done their homework and see for themselves an argument for 62,000. Mr Moshiri knows best, we hope. He has his success for a reason.

It is a pain getting in and out of Goodison and the pillars don't help. Taking just that into account we'd have more sales. Demand is growing but we also have to keep improving as a team so the product is better on the pitch.

I'm not so sure that using US marketing techniques would work over here, we are very different peoples. A new stadium will generate a lot of interest, and open up a lot of new doors. I can't wait.

I am definitely one of the group of fans that Steve Ferns mentions. The situation now regarding purchasing tickets as a casual supporter is so bad (ie, only the worst seats at the back available and if I want to take the kids and/or my wife, who are all Evertonians, we have no chance of getting seats together ) that I go straight to Stubhub. Yes, I pay a bit more, but if we are making a 500-mile round trip we want half decent seats.

My children (13 and 7) are from another planet to my generation in many ways. They expect decent facilities and you only have to look at what they do in the school holidays to see that Everton have to ramp up the matchday experience. It's much better at Goodison now, but corporate is too stuffy for them and although they find eating chips and curry sauce in the street a bit of a novelty, that's not actually putting any money in Everton's till.

I think that if the new stadium has decent large family facilities with good seats reasonably near the pitch where you may pay say ٣-㾶 above the cost of a normal ticket you'd see a massive take up and then families arriving much earlier and eating inside the stadium on weekend games. The revenue opportunities for the Club are enormous. Throw in a shopping mall and my wife would be there at 9 in the morning!

It's also true to say we couldn't realistically get to more than about 6 games a season due to where we live, but I think we would definitely spend a lot more if the facilities were there. A Hotel nearby and we might well stay on for a Saturday night and travel back on the Sunday. Surely the Club are planning an Hotel nearby as well?

Finally, I cast my mind back exactly 25 years and a letter I wrote to then Club Secretary, Jim Greenwood. The new Park End was about to be built. After 3 years earlier showing us plans for a 10,000 seat 2-tier stand, the Club were now going to build a 6,000 seat single tier stand. I argued that not only would this not look in keeping with the other multi-tiered stands, a 40,000 capacity would be insufficient.

Mr Greenwood sent a frankly dismissive reply (which I still have) stating that as far as the Board were concerned 40,000 was ‘more than adequate now and for the foreseeable future'. How wrong he was as within 3 years our average crowd had risen to 37,000 from 22,000 when he wrote that reply. It hasn't changed much since because it can't, but now there are so many season ticket holders the fans of the future are being pushed away,

It's that sort of ultra-conservative thinking that has held the Club back since the 1970s. I believe 60,000 is about right, 52,000 will soon be insufficient. It would be another generation or owner that expanded it — if ever. Now is the chance. For God's sake, Build it and they will come. It's about the future, not just the here and now.

They are a shambles off the pitch but they are still selling out and charge 㿨-㿼 for the really big games.

Sure a return on the investment has to come, but over what period of time? It's not a race. What's important is building a fanbase for the long term when us ‘more experienced' fans have departed. Blocking attendance of the younger generation who will be squeezed out by high prices and lack of seats is not a good idea.

I mention this because, on the odd occasion I can't make the game (work etc), my Dad or my younger brother use my ticket. And both have said they will never pay full price for a ticket to sit behind a post ever again.

I'm wondering how many fans do we have with this attitude? I accept the number could be quite small, but I've a feeling it could be more than we think.

Anyway, I'll put my cards on the table and say my preference is in the 57/58 thousand range. Don't worry about the RS giving us stick if we have empty seats – the amount of inbreeding that has gone into their fanbase has negated their ability to make accurate observations about anything.

I live away from the city now but try to time visits 4-5 a year with games. I've found after a couple of bad experiences (posts in the Lower Bullens) that I've just stopped thinking of going.

In the past, I'd check out availability on the website etc; now, with the limited availability due to season ticket sales, I don't even get that far. I don't think I'm alone, plus family members who live locally like yours who just won't pay it anymore.

The capacity should be higher.

When my kopite mate gleefully told me that our new ground would be smaller than that of Newcastle United, I thought he was pulling my leg at first.

I'm sure there are plenty of expensive seats, but I think their gate income only went up about ٠m despite their capacity going up by over 50%. Which sounds like there's plenty of cheaper seats too.

Also, one of the national newspapers printed an article showing "actual attendance" figures at all Premier League clubs. I can't remember the exact figures, but I think West Ham's actual attendances were 12k less than the published ones.

I'm not sure what the breakeven income is for a 𧺬m stadium with whatever naming rights and other financial uplifts but I would've thought it was a lot higher than for West Ham's freeby stadium.

There is a fear of empty seats. I'm intrigued on the safe standing. If the club are relying on a 1:2 ratio to take the capacity from 52,000 to 62,000, can the club operate a variable capacity? One end stays seated instead of standing for certain games thus reducing the capacity.

In my only question to Meis in April, I asked about a variable capacity; he said emphatically "No".

I read that an Evertonian had a “14 to West Ham” on his shirt yesterday, whilst doing the crossbar challenge, and it dawned on me that Everton always used to have the greater support so let's hope that history can repeat itself in the future, and the Esk might just be ahead of the game!

Tom, assuming 𧸖m funding at 5.25% over 25 years (the rate the LCC deal was priced at, although I know Moshiri favours a 40-year deal) and if break even = current Goodison Park revenues plus financing costs, then we need to generate 㿕m per annum from Bramley-Moore Dock in terms of matchday income (before F&B and merchandising).

That equates to ٠m a game (rounding up) as against less than 𧽴k a game currently from Goodison Park.

At 52k capacity (a 30% increase), even after taking into account much higher premium seating revenues, the price of a season ticket or "walk-up" ticket has to increase hugely to generate that revenue.

To date, the club haven't challenged that assumption publicly or privately.

I read somewhere that West ham only added a few percent to their matchday income, despite a 50% capacity increase. Could we suffer similarly given our respective fanbases etc?

Like it or not, we need to appeal to the corporate ‘tourist' match goer. I, like many others, just roll up, take my seat, and get off after the whistle.

We need to see fans attending who are there well before and after if that matchday revenue is so important. Local fans are unlikely to change their habits too much so we need to tap into the lucrative tourist market.

Part of the ground, will have a section of 10,000 seats, with the safety conversion rate at 2 standees for one seat. That gives you your extra capacity as and when you need it. That might have changed to 1.5 for one seat though, maybe I read somewhere!

So 52,000 for your regular games with the expanded capacity for the premium ones. Gets you up to 62,000.

Whilst safe standing has not been ratified, the club I think has worked out it will be. Having the ground adaptable seem a smart move.

I've no idea how the season ticketing will work but I imagine you will be told up-front and certain categories of people will not be able to obtain a safe standing seat; normally predicated on height rather that demographic.

But I'm really putting forward my best guess!!!

From what I have seen all that happens is that your seat folds up behind you, but a rail rises up in front of you to stop you falling forward and any type of crush happening. So the floor space hasn't really changed, just moved backwards.

I can't see how you would get anything like twice as many people into that space. It would be too cramped. I'd be amazed if it added any more than 20% capacity to a stand. I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio was 1:1, ie, no increase at all.

I think this may be a total red herring.

From the outline design plans we saw a while back, it seems that one end of the stadium will have a stand far lower than the opposite end and a big screen hanging from the roof to effectively mask the big gap under the roof. This is where I believe they would expand, if ever, and take down the screen to facilitate that. Problems would be building outwards and it might require some skilled girder designs to effectively rise above a concourse and perhaps even be over water at the furthest point.

In the UK trials, only 1:1 has been allowed at Celtic, but new legislation may change that.

The Bramley-Moore Dock project is our golden opportunity to be recognised as top flight. I am all for a 60,000 plus stadium, a new Merseyrail stop close by and, whilst we are about, it a marina so that our Everton Irish cousins can sail down the Mersey and hop off their yachts close to Bramley-Moore Dock.

Might even consider having a ferry stop for Wirral and North Wales Blues. It's better than catching the 14 bus to Anfield.