Please... not this summer

On the other hand, why not replace friendlies with competitive games? Why not use some of our extensive youth outfit to negotiate the earlier rounds?

I agree that we shouldn't let it disrupt our Premier League campaign, but why not have a punt at it like we would with the League Cup etc. What is there to lose?

If we need to rest some of our better players, don't play them. If we crash out because of that, so what? We'll have made more money on our higher league position anyway and it will give some European experience to our younger players.

Does it have to be a poisoned chalice?

And if that means the Europa League then the minimum goal should be reaching the semi-finals, and not saying "I don't want to play in Europe this season because we're in the Europa League".

To me, a qualifying game in the Europa League is going to have more intensity than a friendly with nothing riding on it.

I don't think you can blame the Europa League for Everton playing below par that season. We signed 3 Number 10s, and many other over-priced players who turned out not to be good enough. We ended up with a huge squad who were poorly managed.

I honestly don't think the Europa League had anything to do with our poor form. If we hadn't been in Europe, do you think we'd have finished any higher in the league? I don't.

I actually think the Europa League qualifiers are a great way to get players up to speed for the new season. Playing a competitive qualifier is much better than a friendly away at Bury or whoever.

As well as supporting Everton, I also support Aberdeen. Aberdeen have qualified for Europe for the last 5 years, and it's massive for us. The only problem it seems to have is that quite often we run out of steam towards the end of the season having started the qualifiers so early. Everton have a much bigger squad though, so shouldn't face that problem.

For Everton, being in Europe will help us attract a better standard of player and to be fair, we have a much better chance of qualifying for the Champions League through winning the Europa League than we do through the league.

The Europa League is exactly the type of silverware we should be trying to get for Everton, as we edge our way slowly towards becoming a Champions League regular. I for one will be gutted if we miss out on qualifying for Europe this year.

4 friendlies + 4 qualifiers = 8 warm up games before the season starts.

A normal pre-season would have between 6 and 8 friendlies.

Are you telling me the 22-0 friendly win this summer was more beneficial than a slightly competitive European qualifier?

If we don't have the fringe players to negotiate qualifiers against the 4th place team from Slovenia, then we probably don't deserve to be in the group stages.

Doing something badly in the past isn't a reason not to try to do it well in the future. We shouldn't be signing loads of new players this summer, and the more competitive games we have early on, the better.

Tottenham used their squad really well in the Europa League a few years ago and it was a stepping stone for them to do well in the Champions League. The problem has been Everton's dreadful organisation of pre-season, whether we're in Europe or not, not the Europa League itself. That's an excuse, and fear of it is a small-club mentality that we're desperate to break out of.

The Europa League will be a bonus after a very poor middle section of the season, and being in it, if done properly, can accelerate our development as a club.

Now, if l were Wolves, I'd be losing the next 3 games because, if they do make Europe, I'd be surprised if they make it in the top 10 next season.

I think it's Wolves' 7th to lose at the moment. I have some sympathy for Martin's point though.

We need a win at Crystal Palace to remain in the mix as 56 points will hopefully be enough for us. We need to conjure up a win, win, draw finish.

It is surprising there is still excitement to be had for us with 3 games left and ongoing.

I really enjoyed our Europa League run under Martinez and think we'd be capable of going as far or further with Silva. But there is no denying that a Europa League more often than not results in a poorer domestic campaign, just look at Burnley's drop off this season! I always want us to finish as high up the league as possible but in this case coming 8th or 9th could end up being a blessing in disguise.

As it is I think Wolves excellent result and performance last night puts them in pole position. No match is easy and I'd be surprised if we got a simple 6 points against Palace and Burnley, we have often struggled this season against teams that play compactly and look to counter or move directly so both those teams could cause us issues.

I predict a 9th-place finish.

The campaign two years ago was a shambles but, as others have said, I think it was more the faulty recruitment rather than the Europa League messing up pre-season. Burnley struggled but we have a much deeper squad than they have and much more Europe DNA – which is something we need to develop further if we are ever to do ourselves justice in the CL at some point – we need experience of playing in Europe.

We hardly need to buy ANY new players next summer – if we can Zouma and Gomes, but they are already integrated in the squad. I'd expect only one other first team player coming in – a centre forward, if we can get one (although I'm pretty happy with DCL at the moment). So it will be a completely different scenario to 2017.

I'm hoping Liverpool beat Wolves on the final day!

A draw between Watford and Wolves will leave us needing to beat Palace and Burnley to be certain of qualifying, regardless of the Spurs result.

Wolves beating Watford will almost certainly put it out of reach.

The Europa League is not ideal but it's been so long since we won anything of note that it's become a legend. Bards have written about and it starts: "Once upon a time, there was a great team called Everton..." Sigh.

We need to be in Europe to attract a certain type of player, especially a decent striker but here are some people trying to talk down the Europa League. Did you have the same attitude to the cup winners cup back in 1985? In my eyes, you gotta be achieving 5th and 6th or a cup win a few years on the trot before you can even think about playing Champions League football.

We take a similar attitude to the League Cup every season and look where that gets us. Like it or not, we're nowhere near winning the PL or the CL so why not aim for the next best trophies?

You have 6-8 warm-up matches with the quality of opposition getting gradually tougher... job done.

You seem to be making both arguments. Disagreeing with Martin yet speculating Europa qualification would prevent Wolves finishing in the top 10.

I'm not too sure, myself, as there are pros and cons but on balance I think I'd prefer to swerve Europe and start next season totally focused on the Premier League and early stages of the League Cup (or whatever it'll be called next season).

If we don't finish in a European spot we are at risk of being left behind them never mind the top six. We need to think big and move away from our old thrifty get by attitude.

The Europa league has a group stage of 6 games, a knock-out phase of four, two-legged ties and a final. A total of 15 games.

Burnley finished 7th and played SIX games in preliminary rounds falling at the final hurdle before the group stage. Chelsea & Arsenal didn't play these extra games, going straight into the group stage.

So to win the EL after finishing seventh, you would have to play in 21 games and the prize is a shot at the Champions League the following season.

A 7th placed league finish and entry into the EL looks like a poisoned chalice to me.

That's My Everton... 'nuff said.

There, how's that for detail, lol!

If we hate playing those extra matches then thank goodness we're not in the Champions League. I hate it when I see the midweek fixtures and see Arsenal, Chelsea etc playing matches and we aren't.

There's no greater joy than four beers in your belly at 4 pm, watching Everton, knowing you should be working.

Unless of course you're at the game.. .

I make do with the hand I'm dealt.

Europa League all the way for me.

But will United be sacking OGS in December as they languish in the bottom half of the table? Will Abramovich get a reaction from Chelsea with another new manager and Hazard replaced? Is 2019-20 the season we can, free from Europe on a Thursday night, take a top 6 place, even a top 4 place?

General consensus is sign Zouma and Gomes on permanent transfers and there is no major additions needed (except another goal scorer like Shearer, Lineaker, van Nistelrooy) and so do we need to be "in Europe" to attract players?

I think the last few weeks have shown we have the team, we just need to consistency and the killer instinct 95 minutes a game, 38 games a season - and Cup games and Champions League games should automatically generate a killer instinct!

Obviously if you are in the CL I think that is a big draw for players but i'm not sure the same can be said for Europa. I don't think we attracted better players when we were in it compared to out.

I guess if we were regularly in it that might be something but its more important that players look at us and think we have a shot of winning things and gatecrashing the CL, which is where everyone wants to be.

What scuppered us most last season and ultimately cost Koeman and Walsh their jobs was the scattergun recruitment which left us with an unbalanced squad and burdened us with too many mediocre players on high salaries we can't easily move on.

Martin's OP is littered with emotive language which may well reflect his views, but not the reality of things:

'disorganised disaster'
'pre-season was a chaotic joke'
'disrupting'
'recipe for disaster'
'hastily put together pre-season schedule' (it wasn't. The friendlies were pencilled in just after the close of the previous season).
'an awful mess of a pre-season'
'total hindrance'
'disorganised disaster'

Martin predicts if we qualify for the EL this season, 'the same disruption...will be an inevitable consequence'.

Why? Why the assumption that a different season, under a different manager, with different players, will simply repeat the 'failings' of a previous season?

The 8 pre-season games Martin references - 4 friendlies, 4 qualifying EL - is not excessive. If managed correctly, they constitute a more meaningful preparation for the domestic season ahead as you are playing competitive games from the off, not gentle friendlies with nothing resting on the result.

I will always-always-ALWAYS lobby that we should aim to play in Europe every single season. The important co-efficiency ranking a club attains depending on how frequently and how well they do in European competitions is, for Everton, whittling away to nothing due to our absence from Europe. The higher your co-efficiency, the less likely it is you even need to endure the EL pre-qualifiers. The more favourable 'pot' you are put in for the draws.

Look at a club we can draw direct parallels with: Spurs. We were not just their equals only a few seasons ago. We were their betters. We are trailing in their dust.

They have been better managed both on and off the park, recruited better - both managers and players - promoted homegrown talent, have a superb new stadium.

By being metronome steady, they have usurped 'bigger and better' clubs to initially claim regular EL qualification and now passage to the CL. They are on the cusp of making the final.

Everton can't cherry pick the seasons or competitions to play in Europe. It should be a bare minimum for Everton to qualify every single year to compete in Europe. It's down to the board and management, thereafter, to ensure we have the resources to compete on all fronts.

Isn't that what ambitious 'big' clubs do..?

I'm not a fan of Silva, don't think I'll ever be however he will plan and have a strategy for playing Europa League.

It's more than likely since most of his managerial experience is in Europe we might negotiate the games well?

For Everton to get to the top 4, it's going to require us over-achieving because we don't have the funds to do it. The Europa League is an avenue to get you there into the Champions League. It's an opportunity, grasp it.

One important point is that by not being in Europe we don't gain European points for the seeding. We are currently 84 in the ranking below Krasnodar, Plzen, Malmo. Which means that if we qualify for the CL we would be bottom seed.

Every chairman / owner in the premier league wants to finish as high as they possibly can anyway, because the higher you finish, the bigger the payout at the end of the season.

As I've said on another thread, a club the size and stature of Everton should be playing in Europe every season, be it the CL or EL, and if the players can't handle a few extra games each season, then they don't deserve to be professional footballers.

Finally, what makes me laugh the most, is people saying they don't want to qualify for the EL, but would love to win one of the cups, which in turn, takes you into what? Answers on a postcard please!!

I would imagine that training needs to be adjusted to allow for midweek matches, so that players are not overworked. They must have a regimen that atones partly for the additional exertions of the midweek games. Maybe more study needs to be done on that.

We have a promising few youngsters coming through so any senior who is not 100% could be rested to allow one or two of the u23's to shine.

The reason why fans want to win a cup is because its a trophy, thats the reason not because it qualifies for the Europa league. Even UEFA think its a nothing tournament, just look at the difference in prize money between their 2 competitions.

Champions league
Winners 86.6 million euros
Losing Finalists 81.2 million euros
reaching group stage 12.7 million euros

Europa League
Winners 8.4 million euros
Losing Finalist 4.5 million euros
semi finalist 2.4 million euros

The Champions league has 32 teams, the Europa League has 178.
So more games more travelling for a pittance compared to Champions League. The Champions league played on a Tuesday or Wednesday as not to disrupt weekend league games,has all the excitement and buzz and the Europa is relegated to a Thursday, with no buzz and television hardly bothering with early rounds, even channel 5 could afford to show games.

We failed in Europe before because we had a crap squad and manager.

The Europa league offers a route into the Champion's League. This is a lot more realistic target than breaking the top 4 at present.

I can't understand any blue that doesn't want Everton to be in Europe where we belong.

Around 58 teams play for just 6 places in the group stages, one of those 58 is the English team who finishes 4th.

And people wonder why big European teams are viewed as being anti competitive. Get them all playing knockouts, with the 32 who survive the knockouts going into the group stages.

Unfortunately I think Wolves will make it a moot point, but if we can overhaul them for 7th, like almost all here I will be delighted.

I think the potential benefits of making the EL far outweigh the risks.

You can register different players between the rounds too. It's only for the group that you need to register your 25 and stick with it. So no worries about squads here and registering the likes of Sigurdsson. We can use Sandro, Mirallas, and Bolasie. Get them in the shop window and sold. I'm sure silva could put a decent enough side out whilst still resting the older players like Sigurdsson, Gueye, Baines, and so on.

I'm actually quite excited to see if we've got what it takes to qualify now!

This depends on the following:
Squad depth
Squad age
Experience
Premier League pedigree

Each team in the top 6 has enough squad depth to compete on all fronts; we don't.

Our squad age is fairly young... naturally so as that's what our recruitment policy has been like. This helps with exposure, growth and experience. They also heal quicker. They aren't in their prime and are still relatively raw.

Our players can't last a whole Premier League season and are still in the process of reaching that point.

Players need time adapting to the Premier League and it's been evident with Gomes, Bernard, Tosun, Calvert-Lewin, Mina and Richarlison.

Our most played player, Sigurdsson, is Premier League proven and can last a whole season, and he's turning 30. He's probably the only player who can play 50 games a season easily but would you want to risk your best player in these games which could halt our progression in other domestic games? I wouldn't.

Gana might not be here so I'm going to avoid speaking about him.

That's half our starting line-up still adjusting to the Premier League and there are some people still wanting them to add more to their already challenging feat.

Travelling to Eastern Europe is taxing on the mind and body. Having games 2 days after coming back from Ukraine or Russia is arduous. Traveling by flights back and forth in one night takes a toll. It's completely different to the Mickey Mouse cup as players are on a bus and don't travel thousands of miles to reach a game.

Also, the body needs time to adapt to the cabin pressure. Jet lag is also gonna deteriorate our players body clock. Not saying they won't be able to play but we won't be getting the best of our players and will risk injuring them. We already have a very thin squad and we don't have replacements in every position.

I'd rather we let europa league go this season and challenge for the coveted champions league squad. I honestly do believe we will be able to reach it with our last two months of performances.

Liverpool came 8th during Klopps first season and honestly it was a blessing in disguise because it propelled them to the champions league by focusing solely on domestic games.

Next season our players will be closer to competing with Europe's elite. There's a good chance we could be the dark horse in the top 4 race and that's something I want to bare witness to.

So no, I don't want to see us sluggishly get through the Premier League next season when we can compete with the best. I'd hate to take on a top 6 side after a big Europa League game. Knowing Sky, that's how they'd line us up. If the last two months are anything to go on, which honestly did shock me, we are ready, barely ready, but ready to have a real go at the Champions League spot and terrorise anybody who comes to Goodison Park. I wouldn't give that up for a slight chance of having a good run in the Europa League. NEVER!

Loads wanted Silva out not so long ago, loads probably still do, and in this unforgiving world of football, I think the smart money, might just be on the manager taking the sensible option, which might just be the best route long-term?

Any other year I'd want Europe, but Arsenal, United and Chelsea, all seem to be going backwards, and if Liverpool end up empty handed (PLEASE GOD) then who knows what this could do to them?

Wishful thinking maybe, but if Everton can clear some more deadwood, and recruit as good as they did last year, then its possible that the Phoenix might just be about to rise from the flames, but maybe I'm just too much of a dreamer, when it comes to Everton FC?

In short what it means is that if they're in, I'm behind them, and if not I'm behind them. I'm prepared to accept whatever hand I'm dealt, and after all my feelings won't affect the outcome one way or another.

We should be aiming to get into competitions, and then aiming to win them. Europa League competition offers both the potential of a trophy, and the potential of Champions' League qualification.

It's so unambitious to argue against it. What, we should never aim to finish above 8th unless we can finish 4th? Is that the plan?

As the transfer window approaches expect Man Utd to be linked to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

It's lazy journalism.

For unambitious read realistic!

For me, I just don't trust too many players in our squad to perform adequately, never mind well, when they're burdened with the extra workload of going to Rezumberok and the like, meaning they miss another night out with their/someone else's stellar missus. The poor millionaire loves just don't have the stomach for it. We call them "our deadwood" and we have a helluva lot to get rid of before we can start ambitiously looking at horizons overseas.

Maybe when the EL changes format after next season, but not now for me.

One key to making Everton a top 6 club is keeping our best younger players. The sharks are already circling Richarlison, and after another season like this one Digne is going to be a hot commodity on the world market.

And if you want players like these to stay, you have to be able to offer them European competition. Or somebody else will.

And they'll be gone.

This is a scoop for ToffeeWeb, me and Brian Williams are currently making a huge banner between us DOWN WITH THE EUROPA LEAGUE, me and Brian are keeping this a secret, I can trust myself to keep this secret, not sure about Brian !!!

When the top clubs come calling and the player fancies the move, then I am absolutely certain us being in the Europa league will have no bearing on the players decision. Kante and Mahrez both had Champions league not Europa league yet they both moved, when someone offers to treble your wages and it comes from a club that is regularly in the top 4 its an easy decision.

Liverpool while riding high in the league and competing in Europe still lost Suarez to Barca and Torres to Chelsea. Man Utd couldnt keep Ronaldo out of the clutches of Real Madrid. There is a pecking order in football with both Spanish clubs at the top then both Manchester clubs, then Juventus, PSG,Chelsea, Liverpool and maybe then Arsenal. Sadly we don't come anywhere near the top 20 clubs in Europe so we are always at the mercy of the big boys

Please take into consideration that it's Marco Silva's first season and it takes at least 2 summer transfer windows to get the manager's players in. It'll take another 6 months to gel them in. By the end of next season, my ambitions will be the Premier League title and nothing short of Champions League football. Not 8th. It's a slow and steady process and Europa League will be an unnecessary distraction right now from reaching that goal.

Repeat as necessary.

This is a stat which shows premier league results with European football

1. Man City – PPG: 2.1
Played: 20 (CL 2016-17, 2017-18)
Won 13; lost 4; draw 3
Points: 42
Points per game after Europe: 2.1
Average Premier League PPG: 2.34

2. Arsenal – PPG: 2.04
Played: 21 (CL 2016-17, CL & EL 2017-18)
Won 13; lost 4; draw 4
Points: 43
Points per game after Europe: 2.04
Average Premier League PPG: 1.81

3. Tottenham – PPG: 2
Played: 16 (CL 2016-17, 2017-18)
Won 9; lost 2; draw 5
Points: 32
Points per game after Europe: 2
Average Premier League PPG: 2.14

4. Man Utd – PPG: 1.8
Played 21 (EL 2016-17, CL 2017-18)
Won 12; lost 7; draw 2
Points: 38
Points per game after Europe: 1.8
Average Premier League PPG: 1.97

5. Liverpool – PPG: 1.5
Played: 14 (CL 2017-18)
Won 5; lost 6; draw 3
Points: 21
Points per game after Europe: 1.5
Average Premier League PPG: 1.97

6. Chelsea – PPG: 1.13
Played: 16 (CL, 2015-16, 2017-18)
Won 5; lost 8; draw 3
Points: 18
Points per game after Europe: 1.13
Average Premier League PPG: 1.57

Most of these teams have two starting line ups. When you have a great bench like Ozil, Mikky, Auba, Sane, Jesus, Lucas, Sanchez, Martial, Cech, Pedro/Willian, Shaqiri, and many more, it's easier to rotate the squad and get the desired results. Yet even with the squad depth these clubs have, playing in Europe has had an adverse effect in the Premier League.

Also, all these clubs have two strikers who are premium forwards who can be rotated. We just have one: Calvert-Lewin.

Or maybe, win a cup but tell the FA / UEFA, thanks, but no thanks, we don't want to enter the Europa league because of the extra games (and money) we will have to play, putting all that extra strain on our super fit professional footballers.

Most continental clubs would kill for the money we fritter away on rubbish and many do far better on a fraction of what we waste. Stop making excuses.

The justification for not competing in Europe is that Burnley struggled because of it. And yet people.on here lament that the media don't treat us and the top 6 as equals.

Football is much about experience as anything else. If we avoid all.European competition because it will have an impact on the players we should avoid it? The logic being? What, so we perform.better in the league and then. fail miserably in Europe the following year?

The EL is actually a competition we should be looking at and saying "we can win this".

People lament getting knocked out of the FA Cup, even though our chances of winning are slim. Our chances of finishing fourth are slim, too.

For me, EL should be our no 1 target over the next couple of years.

And you presume I was joking?

And I disagree, as again I believe most here would, that we have a chance of us qualifying for the Champions League next season by finishing 4th. We do not yet have Top 4 talent or anything close to it. We are rebuilding and improving, and I can realistically see the possibility of a significant move up next season. I do not see us improving by the 20 points necessary to hop over Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal into 4th.

And Man Utd has a reported summer transfer budget of over 𧶀 million. Just a bit larger than ours.

Unless we pull a one-year Leicester, we won't be passing them anytime soon.

Yes, Everton need to be in Europe; however, it still maybe a season too soon, but no doubt Europe attracts players, especially those who like to collect their air miles to use for their summer hols!

Everyone has their own opinion, but sometimes people dismiss others with their own opinions, and I just feel that if we haven't won a cup for 25 years, then saying things like "We might as well just pack it in If we don't want Europe" is being way too dismissive imo.

You don't know whether you're ready for most things till you're actually doing them. Let's qualify for it and deal with it.

I happen to think that our rather strange but lovely manager is running a version of this stuff although, I grant you, he tends to look a bit anxious from time to time in a non-Taoist fashion; not joking though: "turn off your mind relax and flow downstream it is not dying" - rather the reverse.

I seem to remember we won our PL games around the EL games and our season really fell apart when we were out of the EL competition.

Of course, all of this will depend on the selected referee and assistants, how many off-side moves of RS they miss etc etc . and (TIC) what instructions they are given by the EPL management team!!?? (I still believe Diana was murdered!!) 🧐

I think the point some are trying to make Paul is that we/they don't feel as confident in our squad YET to be able to go any distance in the EL should we qualify this season.
We may not have Zouma or Gomes and don't know who we WILL have bearing in mind there's possibly 18 players to try to get rid of in order to bring in 6. (possibly 8 if Zouma and Gomes don't stay).
The feeling from the anti ELers seems to be; let's get the squad together that we're hoping to have in order to have a good go and take it from there.
A disastrous run in the EL, similar to the one Eddie Dunn highlights will (IMHO) do extreme damage.
In short I, for one, and a number of others too, believe we're not quite ready to give it a good go.
Now that's an opinion, not saying or claiming that I'm right and the pro ELers are wrong so I'd ask them not to point out that I/we are completely wrong and lacking in ambition and try accept that our opinion is just that, but is as valid as any of theirs.
I want to see us go into competitions with a good chance of winning them. I honestly don't think we have the team/squad to do that in the EL (yet).

I like being involved in the EL, but it would definitely have a negative impact on our domestic campaign. It always has done! Martinez, Koeman (cough) and to a lesser degree, Moyes all saw it occur.

If we can play like we have recently on a more consistent basis we could surprise a lot of people - I can't see that happening with the distraction of Europa football.

Because if we do get 7th, I don't think the club is going to tell the EL, "No thanks, guys, give our ticket to Wolves."

So if you don't want us in the EL, you've gotta cheer for Palace today.

How do you do that? I'm serious now. I couldn't.