Einstein said...

I'm afraid that is all down to the Manager, they don't seem motivated or genuinely upset after too many poor displays, again this is down to the Manager, although they should have some personal pride.

I can draw parallels with Man United, when with Mourinho there, the players seemed to down tools and there were some decent players, but the results were shocking for a team of their reputation and standing.

Then when Solsjkaer first came the results and transformation, with the same players virtually were amazing. Sadly for Solsjkaer the same to be repeating itself, so the players have to be motivated with some sort of system to play to, as if £100K/week shouldn't be enough motivation.

I'm not against Unsworth per se, I think he did an admirable job last time out and should have been given more time. He's done a good job at youth level and certainly would bring enthusiasm and passion to the table.

But I'd be very wary of substituting those qualities for genuine top class aptitude in football management. Just look at what is happening at United under Solskjaer. Lets not restrict ourselves by taking foreign of 'mercenary' candidates off the table. Most of the best professionals in the world work for money. Klopp and Guardiola were not RS or City fans.

Passion and fan approval are factors worth considering in the new man in. But they should not necessarily be the deciding ones to my mind. It really just comes down to whoever Brands/Moshiri thinks is most able to pick up points and win trophies over the next few years. The fans will take to anyone who succeeds and against anyone who does not. Success and progress is key. Wherever the next manager has come from.

I do agree with some of the points made by Sam (6) though, and I'm getting to the point where I'd be happy to see a mercenary manager that can produce results - even if it was someone I didn't like when he was managing somebody else (the FSW is looking like a good idea these days). Even if this was for only a couple of seasons, it could change the attitude of the club and put us in a better position to attract a name that would take us into the new stadium

As long as they can get us into the top 6 and then challenge for top 4, I couldn't give a flying shite about where they are from. Just get the best man available in to sort them out. There's too many players who think they know better and they need someone to look up to, with reverence and respect, and knock them into shape. Someone to stamp their authority. I'm not convinced they are playing all out for Marco Silva.

I would even settle for waiting for that for a few years if we were finishing 7th or 8th and were looking like the real deal. Especially if that was coupled with some good cup runs and a trophy.

As I said before, Mourinho would cost us £25m a year, and want a sizeable transfer fund, so you're talking £300m +. Who is going to pay for that. Allegri is hardly going to go for us, when Man Utd and Spurs are teetering on the brink and Arsenal are only ever a few games away from a crisis themselves. Allegri is living in London and I bet he's after a London job, though the lure of Man Utd might tempt him.

Laurent Blanc is out of work, but he thinks he should get an elite level job. I wonder what he's been up to the in last 3 years, has his backroom staff all got other jobs? Has he kept his hand in with coaching? 3 years is a long time to be out the game. On top of that, he seems likely to go for Lyon over us, they offer European football and the chance to remain in France.

Arsene Wenger is just don't see coming here, being a head coach type and working under Brands. If there was no Brands, then maybe as others have suggested, he could work with Arteta. But Arteta would have to pick the team and Wenger work more as a Director of Football.

Everything points to appointing a permanent manager in the summer. We don't have to wait for the summer to get the deal done though. We could convince Hutter or ten Hag or someone else to agree a deal now and to come in at the end of the season. We then use Silva or Unsworth to see the season out, before the new guy comes in.

For those advocating for Rafa, the Chinese season runs from March to December. So Rafa could be an option at Christmas. I would expect him to see the season out and pick up his fat cheque.

I don't think at any point will there be a candidate out there who all the fans will agree on as I said yesterday! No perfect manager exists. They all have baggage and will all feel the ire if things go wrong (though as you said some may get a bit more leeway than others).

The next permanent manager is obviously a big decision. Brands needs to get it right. How long he is prepared to wait depends on how badly things go for Silva over the next few months. I would not be surprised to see Silva fired in November, Unsworth in for a month or two with a new man starting after the xmas rush but obviously it depends on alot of things.

Or maybe Silva beats West Ham, buys himself some more time and is able to turn it around.

All i'm certain about is that if Silva goes we should not limit ourselves by looking at the staid list of British candidates. It could be that one of those is the right man but lets cast a wide net and trust Brands to find the right man (or woman?!).

Silva isn't responsible for the goals we concede as much as the mess when we try to put an attack together.

Nobody had mentioned Eleven Tag. He is better than Ten obviously... he's one more. I wouldn't mind Unsworth again. He has worked wonders for the Under-23s and should fire them up. Silva is not the answer and that should be obvious to everyone by now by his insistence in formation and tactics.

Even if we turn the corner and play well for the rest of the season l still want Silva gone as he has proven time and time again he doesn't have the acumen to tweak mid-game to win a match. Yes, Marco, we are supposed to win matches, honestly.

Hi-Ho, Silva AWAYyyyyy

Cliff Britton - played for the club
Ian Buchan - no idea who the fella was
Johnny Carey - I believe he only "guested" for the club, so doesn't count
Harry Catterick - played for the club
Billy Bingham - played for the club
Gordon Lee - never played for the club
Howard Kendall - played for the club
Colin Harvey - played for the club
Howard Kendall - played for the club
Mike Walker - never played for the club
Joe Royle - played for the club
Dave Watson - played for the club
Howard Kendall - played for the club
Walter Smith - never played for us
David Moyes - never played for us
Roberto Martinez - never played for us
Ronald Koeman - never played for us
Sam Allardyce - never played for us
Marco Silva - never played for us

So the vast majority of Everton managers from 1948 to 1998 were ex-Everton players. Since 1998, when Walter Smith came in, we haven't had an ex-player. But there's quite clearly a shortage of suitable candidates.

Before '98, the ex-players were not set for life, they had to work and the best of them would go into coaching. Nowadays, few of the better players do go into coaching, they have no need to work and no desire to work the long hours a top class manager has to work. So, you look in the professional leagues and not one of our ex-players manages in the Football League.

If we were to insist on an ex-player, then there's only three candidates: David Unsworth, Duncan Ferguson, and Mikel Arteta. Personally, I would not mind Unsworth or Arteta at all. I would prefer to retain Silva and see if he can break us out of this cycle of good year, bad year. But if he has to go, then Unsworth or Arteta are about the only two managers we could appoint who could unify the fan base. And this for me is a big problem.

When Martinez came in, many of us didn't want him. Myself included. This seemed to count against him when he hit a very bad run of form. Same again with Koeman and then again with Allardyce. Silva was only a few months into his job when the knives were sharpened last season, and they are definitely out now, still only 15 months into his tenure.

A respected ex-player like Arteta would be able to avoid that. Sure, plenty would doubt him; again, myself included. But ultimately, the fans would give him more time than any other manager. The Best Little Spaniard We Know would be immune to criticism for longer. Not just because he's one of us, but also because we'd understand that he's learning the job.

More and more is coming out about what a fantastic coach he is, what great ideas he has, how some of Guardiola's best decisions were actually Arteta's ideas and that seems like something worth taking a risk for, even on a complete novice.

The biggest worry, though, is it seems to be suggested that Guardiola is already planning his exit, and that this exit seems to suggest that Arteta would be left behind and would inherit the reigns at Man City, with infrastructure in place and the opportunity to step into the great man's shoes with a smooth transition rather than having to create everything from scratch here. So, perhaps the Arteta boat was missed when we got Silva in.

The other worry is that the man needs a team. It's all well and good suggesting Cahill, another novice, but Arteta's team should be just that — his team, his choices. I would also prefer to see Arteta bring in a "Jimmy Lumsden type". Some wily old manager he used to play for at Real Sociedad who is like a father to him or something (and no suggestion that such a person exists).

We are in a perpetual cycle. Groundhog Day, someone called it the other day. Martinez did well, then failed, Koeman the same (to a lesser degree), Allardyce was a means to an end, and Silva is going the same way as the first two. Even Moyes had a similar run: 7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th … The first 5 seasons were a yo-yo up and down the table before the base was set.

So, is this what will happen? We will yo-yo for a few years until someone gets time to set a base and build on it? Who will that man be? No idea. It just worries me that whoever comes in will not be given time, that one bad run in the second season and he's gone, and we start again, forever trapped in this cycle and hoping against hope for a miracle.

Rolling the dice and hoping to win big also means running the risk of losing big. Someone might come in, and some may say he's in already, and completely ruin everything and take us down. Relegation for us, right now, with our potential debts if Moshiri does one, would mean oblivion.

Whichever guy comes in will not have the support of the fan-base. We are not getting an elite-level manager. But even Mourinho would have his critics, and I have a load myself.

Allegri has a list of cons to go with his many plusses. Right now, I bet some could come up with a list of points against Pochettino, or Emery. When Liverpool appointed Klopp, his reputation was tarnished and there was marks against him. If Guardiola left Man City without winning the Champions League, you could argue that he's never won it outside of Barcelona and point to all the money he spent, even managing Germany's biggest club won the Champions League recently.

So the only way I can see us uniting the fan base, giving the new guy enough time to get it right, allowing him to have a bad season, is if we go back to the ex-player option.

[Apologies — that's probably a rambling mess. It went off on a mad tangent as I'm doing three things at once!]

I have previously posted and advocated patience with Silva, warning it will take a few windows to enable his players to be brought; adding this will be a bad season as they look set to sweep all before them aside.

I was happy with him taking over and felt the progress he made with a desperately shit Hull and his initial impact with Watford was evidence of potentially great things to come. I read your analysis of his progressive ideas and prior achievements and felt genuine optimism we had the right man.

The thing that has changed my mind completely is the manner of his management; his inability to change approach or have any influence on games and sticking with players who are not performing week after week. It seems to me that, if you can't see a problem and at least make an attempt to change things, you shouldn't be in charge: end of.

There has been nothing he has done tactically that impresses, he had Sigurdsson go into the space behind the wingback against Wolves and that worked but isn't that obvious? Regrettably, I have seen nothing to suggest he has any kind of answers, in exactly the same way I felt about Martinez and Koeman. The same inflexibility and inability to effect change.

All potential managers carry a risk, the guy from Ajax might as well be Neil Lennon for me. I'm not some mad UKIP Brexiteer or anything like that, I just want someone with proven experience of not being shit in this league.

I feel Unsworth would be no worse than Silva and he clearly loves the club. The worry is Moshiri panicked big time when relegation was a very distant prospect and we ended up with Allardyce and Sammy Lee. He is not likely to take a massive punt on an Arteta, even he could get him, so the list is pretty short: Howe or Moyes, perhaps.

I would prefer Unsworth.

Did Allardyce not work out? He chose results over style. Martínez and Silva chose style over results. Our fans want both. Martínez was far superior in my eyes. The fan base simply wouldn't allow Allardyce to continue, same with Martinez as he was saved from attending our final home game of that season.

No excuses left for Silva. He's proven he isn't good enough. Every game is an opportunity for him and he keeps doing the same. He could even keep his favoured (and don't tell me any different) 4-2-3-1 and just play it narrow instead of stretched. Even the most basic change he isn't capable of seeing or doing.

Unsworth would be fine with me as long as he shook up the other coaches and not just promoted his own Under-23 team. Though l would prefer him as assistant to a new boss.

Silva has hit a wall. As soon as we failed vs Villa, the writing was on the wall. In this league you can't wait 2 months for a change as all will be lost. We can't write off another season with 90 points still to play for.

I may be wrong and he may have needed longer to develop his ideas fully, but I could only ever see horrible soul-destroying football and a club with a loyal fan base with genuine aspirations at its lowest ebb having fallen (or maybe pushed) from grace, suffering the indignity of a man not fit to manage our club.

And Sammy Lee.

I agree that a Manager who understands Everton in terms of a traditional English Club, would be better, but that will not sort out the necessary changes throughout the Club from top to bottom.

That's why Silva going is such a problem, because replacing the Manager alone will not sort the problem and what Manager or player would want to see Everton as a good career move. , given its recent history.

At the moment, Everton is a graveyard for managers' and players' careers and this will be reinforced by Silva's departure.

I'm from Liverpool but live down South now, my other half is a Hammers fan and my kids are loyal to dad but are starting to take the mickey out of Everton.

I want us to be the '80s team again and to be that we need a winner, not a prospect, we need a WINNER. I choke on the breath that says it but Moriniho or Benitez are winners, they have won stuff at clubs bar Newcastle for Benitez. I want us to win something, so go on Everton get the best!! Not second-best, not cast-offs, get the best and be winners again.

I could not take Moyes as manager again, if that was to happen I think I'd fall out of love with Everton and maybe become a Canary, because if Moyes is the best, then I cannot see any future in Everton. I want to see my kids proud to wear the Everton shirt amongst the sea of every other top there is down here, I want to feel people tremble at the thought of playing "The Mighty Blues". So come on, Everton, please get it right this time!!!

https://www.evertonfc.com/club/history/players-and-managers/managers/ian-buchan

Now, one thing I know he did say and which is very relevant, is that you have to be very careful in drawing conclusions from particular sets of information. That quote applies to this thread and many other threads.

In this sense, I'm not convinced that we can draw conclusions from examples such as past instances of Everton managers being former players, or managers having any emotional investment in Everton.

We simply need a professional and winning approach from the Everton board all the way down. It's as simple as that.

I was serving in Cyprus [Army 1956-59] when Ian Buchan was appointed, so witnessed none of his Everton career. The phrase 'If you know your history' springs to mind, no offence intended, just a little gentle ribbing. I hope you accept it for what it is, we can enjoy the moment at the next get-together.

Successful managers in any occupation, including football, have to have many skills. The main ones are:
(1) an ability to clearly know the talents of alll the individuals working for you.,
(2) to be able to inspire them so that they really enjoy working for you
(3) to be able to have a plan that makes sense and enables the individuals to work as one cohesive unit.

However, the most important one is to be inspirational. I have only listened to Silva's pre- and post-game interviews and he personally does not inspire me in the least. In fact, he bores me to the point of annoyance. That seems to rub off on the players. They actually look "bored", disinterested and lacking in intensity. However, I still think we have good players.

Having said that I still think he may need a few more games before we take another stab in the dark. If we do have to take such a measure I can only think of Moyes as another temporary measure until the end of the season. Not something I would relish but, unfortunately, we seem to be in one more "Band-Aid" situation. I still think we need a magician. Unfortunately, the rabbit seems to have already decided to jump out of the hat.

What a depressing read that Wikipedia link is for Ian Buchan.

"The reason for Buchan's appointment was a mystery. He was only given the title 'chief coach' so there must have been reservations already and he never gained the confidence of the board. Buchan was sacked after six straight defeats. He returned to Scotland and was killed in a car crash in 1965 at the age of 45."

Steve (12), I don’t think you were doing three things at once, you were trying to do three things at once, maybe that’s where Silva is going wrong, mind you, at the moment, he’s struggling to get one thing right.

If we had the option of moving forward centrally, we would also have the option of bringing wide players in later and with more surprise.

I think it was Einstein who once said that "given enough time, if you surrender central midfield, you are fucked."

The prospect of Moyes returning to do the same job as Allardyce is just about as attractive now as it was when the latter took over a couple of years back. If they decide to terminate Silva's employment, most likely in the November break(?), then, unless there is a lined up replacement ready to step straight in, I struggle to see beyond Unsworth to steady the ship again. If so, he should remain in post until the summer before any further upheaval occurs.

Everton is a conundrum, it's a difficult job, a very hard one to crack. But what's needed next is emotion, fire and connection. It may not work but it has to be tried as the next appointment to get out of this slump of misery and ennui.

To actually look forward and be excited about watching the match would be something. To engage and galavanise the crowd with some belief.

You know, people talk of Simeone. But what had he done in management before A.Madrid took the risk on an ex-player who had a strong connection with the supporters? Not much, no high-level European coaching experience.

Atletico is another club that is/was a conundrum. Difficult to understand from the outside. It needed an injection of emotion and energy, not a well-established manager, like a people are speaking of now, like Allegri or Wenger - they would do fuck all at Everton, and leave with a handsome pay out.

Thank you for understanding.

Personally, I don't want Kenwright anywhere near this decision, which is why I don't want Unsy, Moyes or Neville.

I absolutely do not want Sean Dyche or Eddie Howe although I would put Graham Potter in the hat.

Wenger has already said he would not take another Premier Legue team out of respect for Arsenal and it seems he is being lined up by FIFA for some development role anyway.

Mourhino would be far too expensive and a risk at this stage of his career and I doubt whether Nagelsman would find us attractive enough.

Of the upcoming coaches ,I would favour Ten Hag although Arteta with Tim Cahill might work well.

Whoever we pick (or rather THEY pick) should be allowed to pick their own backroom staff and not have big Dunc, Unsy or anyone else forced on them. It is really important that the coach has his ideas consistently communicated at every level.

It would also help if the players were forced to take English classes every week.

The trend has been that he has done well to a point (eg, getting Ireland to the last 16 of the world cup, promoted with Wolves, Sunderland, getting Millwall in playoffs, keeping Ipswich afloat) then some smart ass comes along and says someone else could do better.

When he is sacked his teams go down hill rapidly. Ireland didn't reach another tournament for over a decade, Wolves, Ipswich relegated, Millwall drifted off into the nethersphere.

He is a good old fashioned northerner and football man. He is wise enough to understand the club, and thick-skinned enough to handle the pressure. Bring in Cahill as assistant and see if he develops into an eventual replacement.

That is trolling of the highest order, my friend.
I’m not going to react to that, much.
I’m just going to say, Mick McCarthy?
Wow, just wow. Mick McCarthy?
Mick McCarthy? I have a mate, an Ipswich fan, who you might want to talk to about that, before you check back into rehab.

Ask your mate how things have gone since Mick left...

We need a smart, articulate, passionate ex Evertonian with an exemplary record on and off the pitch. Someone with experience of the Premier League as well as Europe for when we make the Champions League (my guy also played for Inter Milan).

Someone who would get instant respect due to his performances on and off the pitch and who was universally adored by the fans.

Someone not frightened of the other lot across the park [who can forget that tackle that led to a straight red card for my guy against them in 2006...

International experience would also be a bonus [which my guy has] Someone who knows the pitfalls and mistakes that modern-day footballers can make and can relate to them.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the next Everton manager Andy van der Meyde

ps: As an added bonus he also has experience of being a referee. even if it only was at the Lingerie World Cup!

Actually, I've always liked the Mick Man. He's won more than he's lost at every stop in his career, and he gives great postgame interviews. And he's got a woefully undertalented Ireland side at the top of their Euro 2020 group -- just two goals against in five games. See 'em last month against the Swiss? Very committed, passionate performance.

But no, I don't think he's the guy for us. In your own words, the fan base would go mental.

AVDM?
Nice shout. Maybe Head of Hospitality, first, ease him in.

Lol I know it would be a hard sell but I just feel like if people forget the pre-conceptions and look at his record he'd do well. Maybe, we can avoid this problem by following that show The Masked Singer. Keep the new managers identity secret and have him dress up in a giant Toffee costume on matchdays. See how he does and at the end of the season the big Scooby-Doo like reveal.

Adi Hutter... Eintract Frankfurt. I think he was voted Manager of the Year in Germany. Fast attacking exciting football with tactical changes within a game.

He lost most of his forward line, Jovic & Haller... he tried a number of things and, after a slow start, it's beginning to click again this season.

Stephen, unlikely he'd come to us or that Frankfurt would let him go with two years still to run on his contract. They love him there.

As we're sinking into relegation, fans are invading the pitch to try am rip him black n white striped Everton mint head off.

Or, we win the league, the excitement is unbearable, out of the costume steps... Yes, you've guessed it, Blue Bill.

Did you know VDM begged Drenthe not to join Everton in 2011? Told him there were too many temptations in the city. "Bacardi flows and you can ski on cocaine; and the women, Royston. Oh man, oh man, oh man. Those British women with their short skirts…”

However, that quote is widely used and, more often than not, attributed to Einstein.

If he didn't say it, then somebody did (originally).

Do you know?

If so, please let us know.

If not, then Einstein is as good a guess as any - I suppose.

It certainly carries his touch of genius.

Emotion, fire, ambition, drive and ability — yes!!!! Connection? Why? Pep and The chosen One haven't had connection and they've done OK. There have been a few others too.

He needs to speak decent English to be able to communicate his ideas, views and tactics and that includes the homegrown ones.

Everton is a sleeping giant, I just hope it isn't comatose.

#21/22- Gave me a lift and also what followed. Why is it when we're feeling low we somehow find something to give us a lift?

If it wasn't Einstein it must have been Phil Silvers who said that.

Champions 63 - Managed by former player

Champions - 70 Managed by former player.

FA cup winners 84 - Managed by former player

Champions 85 - Managed by former player

ECWC winners 85 - Managed by former player

Champions 87 - Managed by former player

95 FA cup winners - Managed by former players.

This is how we do it

Irrefutable & circumstantial evidence, as m'learned friends might say.

Of course the other common denominator with those guys was that they were good, or in the cases of Catterick & Kendall, great managers.

That's the main criteria for me. Knowing/getting the club would be a bonus.

Lets just get a good man in - we're due one!

Give the job to Unsworth and he would be overwhelmed by the pressure in my opinion.

We need a big personality, someone who can come in and say "the season starts here, fresh start for everyone. You do the job and your in, you don't and you are most definitely out"
A strong enough personality to leave the big money signings out.

Only one I can think of who fits that criteria.

I wasnt setting out to make a comprehensive listing, or a precise record. I was making a point. I didnt list any charity shields either. the fact is the ones I missed off, merely enhance the point further.

The point is. . ah na, forget it. . If it needs explaining . .

I was thinking about your theory on my seven-hour train journey. I'm too young to have seen Catterick as a player, but Kendall & Royle were both special. On that basis, if your theory holds, it has to be Arteta!

Is it really just a theory ? Or is this the way we as a club roll ?
since the Cat retired retired in 73, we have had about 25 years of non Evertonian manager's. They havent delivered a trophy between the lot f them

I'm not saying appointing ex blues as managers guarantee's will will succeed, but all known evidence going back a very long way would suggest, appointing non Evertonians, guarantees we wont

We just need a good one.

PT, good luck to GT this weekend!!

Harvey may not be the most successful ex-blue to manage, but despite having the team he inherited ripped apart and stripped of world class players. He still got us to a cup final and finished 4th and 6th.
Colin Harvey himself, considered that failure, but Walker,Smith,Moyes,Martinez,Allardyce,Koeman and Silva, would have expected an open top bus to be booked for achieving that.

Good luck at MR. I will be taking a keen interest.

Mike

Giving a list of actual facts has absolutely nothing to do with spouting stats.

Stats are those daft arsed numbers you yanks like to play with whilst demonstrating a total disregard for underlying facts.
These trophies are officially recorded. not dreamed up in some fan boy magazine. We won them. . thats a Fact

I listened to an interview with Pat Nevin a few years back where he was adamant that that team was 'close' to being successful. I'll never forget the thrill of Cottee's debut against Newcastle and the semi win against Norwich, before hearing the news from Sheffield, of course.

Bear in mind with the forecast weather, more likely to be Kempton on Sunday. Doesn't want a chase debut on testing ground.

Good luck

Why would we look at him?

Just a heads up, were in for one of the hardest Decembers we've ever had. I don't think well get relegated but come January 1, opposition Man City, a dig-in and graft couple of months will beckon.

Just a heads up, were in for one of the hardest Decembers we've ever had. I don't think well get relegated but come January 1, opposition Man City, a dig-in and graft couple of months will beckon.

I mean, we are on the pitch at the moment, but I'm hoping that at least changes, at least a bit.

Just saying – I am not arguing in favour of his return!