The Good Son

Whilst it maybe fair to say the OP goes over the top in saying Son was effectively play acting at being upset, I can’t see how you reckon he was after the ball. It’s a shit challenge made with no chance of winning the ball. That’s where the ire comes from, it’s not to say he isn’t generally a good lad, but in this instance he has got it wrong.

Fair to say spurs have framed it well from their side, but I am not sure there is much Everton should be doing? There will be times it happens the other way round, and really on the day the advantage of having the extra player told.

They are telling the big lie, repeating it...and getting believed.

Fernandinho does similar fouls every week, to name but one player.

Fouls and injuries are part of football unfortunately. These things happen, vary rarely thankfully...

I cant even think of a manager weve had (lncluding Moyes) that would of Foghorn Lagorned at the FA/ref/ any fuckin’ thing or one that gave us any grief.

Ive given up me personally bein arsed because if they,and that includes the team aren’t arsed why the fuck should i/we be ??

Anyway get well soon Andre,and heres hoping you don't come back to face life in the championship.

I think Richarlison, if he is going to carry on with the diving, needs to get it right, he is too amateurish at the moment, Mane and Salah do it to perfection, practice it, wouldn’t be surprised if they go dance lessons to get cheorography lessons, going down in perfect graceful stages,you see the referees admiring the way they fall before pointing to the penalty spot. I never expect the referee to give them a yellow card, rather a big white one, with an eight, nine or even a ten on it.

I believe the guidelines have changed away from intent to outcome.

A pull back on the shirt is a yellow card, a block off can be a yellow card, a hand ball also. Fairly innocuous acts. So when a player takes another player out with little intent to actually win the ball there needs to be some degree of discretion on the referees part to assess the severity of the outcome before deciding on what action to take. This was not a mistimed challenge. It was a deliberate act to impede an opponent.

Not one utterance from the club or manager defending Richarlison from a number of media 'darlings', quick to point out the silliness of the forward.

Regarding the 'Son' incident, even more gross neglect, we have a soft streak running right through the club at the moment, starting at the top and ending up with a manager talking about 'respect for the laws of the game'.

No wonder were a 'soft touch' in games.

I blame Marco Silva. He speaks the same language as Richarlison. For him not to have sorted this out is utterly ridiculous.

I expect no complaints from the present chairman or CEO, wouldn’t be nice would it, typical Everton.

If that tackle was on Salah it would be a totally different ball game right now.

In fact I'm sure the Red Scum would have burnt his house down by now and the Police charged son with GBH. Son would also have received a season long ban.

I agree with Steve Hogan from the get go in the press it quickly turned into poor old Son, poor old Spurs, and the injustice of it all.

I was even reading that Son might need counselling For fucks sake. No mention of poor old Gomes laying devastated in hospital, in pain and emotionally shattered because of a snidey petulant premediated cynical tackle by Poor old Son.

But hey he's not a bad lad.

I believe the rescinding of the red card not to be unwarranted although I would hope at least a yellow stays in place, and trust Son has learnt an important lesson from this. He's not going to be getting a particularly warm welcome from crowds around the country for a while I reckon.

Must add that the worst team for cynical 'take one for the team' fouls allowing them to break down and get organised after a counterattack are ManC.

But, ultimately, why do we bother? What do Everton gain from Son being banned for 2, 3, 5, or even 10 games? We don't go to Spurs until April, so what does it matter to us?

I agree with the people who think it was a red, and that Son should be banned. But the argument has gone now, it's happened. There's no point arguing any further.

But deep down I will never forgive & forget what Son Heung-min did to one of ours.

I’m disappointed too by the visit to the dressing room. Yes I understand that there is a human side to all of this.

But one of our own had just been hobbled, wreakening our ranks. An asset temporarily destroyed.

I wouldn’t mind making an enemy instead, because it is us versus them and a game of winners and losers.

I hate the offence that ‘professionals’ take (because only they really know the game) at being accused of hurting another player. You often hear the pundits saying ‘you never set out to hurt another professional...it’s his livelihood’ etc etc.

Wel I don’t buy it. The world is rife with people looking to do one over on each other in win lose situations.

You only have to drive your car for a few miles and see people cutting people up, racing at lights etc.

It’s human nature. And to say that professional footballers are programmed not to do this is a complete fallacy.

He knew exactly what he was doing and was completely wreckless as to whether he raspberried Gomes.

Some of the decisions that have gone against us could cost us a relegation and yet the club does not stand up for itself.

We are doormats and whipping boys for the fa.

Silva will probably lose his job this season and yet can't vent his spleen about decisions that have put his head on the block.

Even when we appeal there is more chance of bringing the frivolous rule out and an extension of punishment than us overturning anything.

I am fed up of us being walked over, I want a manager with balls that can fight our corner.

I want the club to threaten banning the use of VAR for home games. I want to see us fight our corner more.

Too many people at the club have agendas other than making the club successful.

Replace Gomes with Salah and how many Liverpool players would have ran up to Son and consoled him on the pitch and then sat with him in the dressing room?

There is a good will that runs through EFC but there is also weakness and a passive meekness to almost everything.

All I can say is if that Son had done my team mate I wouldn't have even wanted to look at him never mind hug him and sit with him. Maybe I'm not a nice human being and there are better men than me?

But as others have said the club is nothing but a door mat for every team in the premier league to wipe their dirty feet on. I just want EFC and its players to grow some balls.

Daniel I agree. And from my example above, I wonder where the fighters were. I would have expected one or two of our guys to be pulled away from Son.

No mention of Gomes, but "Sonny" is ready to play.

Upon reflection I say "good on em" they have played it brilliantly and to heap blame on them just deflects away from our own piss poor response to not only this occurrence but many previously.

Digne was our only player on the pitch losing his rag, that alone was enough to warrant him keeping the captains armband.

Silva at the post match press interview was directly asked about the tackle, he didn't condemn it. Imagine Klopp, his head would have exploded.

The last time I remember us actually challenging "the officialdom" was the video we sent to FA (I think) showing how many times Andy Johnson had been kicked up in the air in the box and nothing given.

Big shock after that, Johnson started to be awarded pens.

Niasse, retrospective diving ban, we took that up the sphincter and most of the season I've heard Silva saying we should support the referees in the implementation of VAR.

It means nowt, we still get the 50/50 decisions given against us.

The Brighton farce, the Dele handball does anyone in our club actually have any balls. Do they actually care.

Son great player but I look forward to the dogs abuse him and Aurier get next time we play them.

Silva should spitting blood on interviews so if any other 50:50 decisions go to VAR then the ref will think "shit Everton have had a few shockers lately I better give them this one or I wont hear the end of it". He had 2-3 genuine reasons to be kicking off big time but almost apologetically said nothing.

With Niasse we should have sent a legal challenge asking why our player has been the only retrospective ban when there have been 10-15 incidents for other teams since but...…….. nothing but silence.

Again passive weakness we just shut up and take it.

Sums the club up,

"His team are an image of him as a player. Cold, calculated snidey bar stewards"

So what doe that say about passive Silva...…..and his passive team with zero fight. An almost mirror image of him.

Scratch that, it was Unsworth.

Th reason being we are the meek and mild premiership no marks that can be pushed around.

Brighton he didn't, Spurs he didn't and remember his passive shrug and remark about Klopps OTT derby winner celebration...…...said nothing.

Silva is not passive and he's not soft. If you want to disagree, then fair enough. great how this is all Silva's fault when there is zero he could do about it. The court of public opinion was influenced by those on TV. Wasn't it two blues? Cahill and Saha? By the time I was on twitter after the game I was getting hammered by neutral fans for suggesting it was a red card. There was no persuading them. Minds were made up.

Our manager should manage the team, not be on TV raging like a lunatic. It doesn't help anyone. Moyes got angry all the time, what good did that do us? Mourinho could have been managing us and do everything you wanted and more, the outcome would be the same.

But after the match and when interviewed he has a calculated and measured chance to defend the club put his aggrievances across. All top class managers that are sore losers do it and so should SIlva.

LAW 12: FOULS AND MISCONDUCT
IFAB Laws of the Game 2019-20

Link

SENDING-OFF OFFENCES

–A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off:
denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)
denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent whose overall movement is towards the offender's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick (unless as outlined below)
–serious foul play
–biting or spitting at someone
–violent conduct
–using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
–receiving a second caution in the same match
entering the video operation room (VOR)
–A player, substitute or substituted player who has been sent off must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area.

SERIOUS FOUL PLAY

A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

We are a nicey nice club with zero ambition and zero aggression.

The Son tackle and Gomes injury took the headlines, and it covered up the shambolic VAR decision when Dele Alli handled in the box, his hand held up high above his head, the ball striking it clearly from every camera angle. Will Everton kick off about that? No. Will Everton demand answers from the FA after two shockingly inconsistent decisions have both gone against us? No. We'll just take our smacked bottom like a good little Everton and stay quiet.

It infuriates me.

There was no excessive force or brutality.

"In my mind, I wanted to see him [Coleman] and apologise, but I remember Roy Keane came out, and he was great with me. He said, 'Listen, I’m not someone who can lecture you on tackles, with the history of my career. It’s football, it’s what happens, you have to take what comes with it now and answer all the questions. The only consolation I give you is that Seamus is a player that gets fouled all the time'."

Martin O'Neill is a fiery character himself. He did not condemn Taylor either. Was he being called passive? This is all just another stick to beat Silva with for ridiculous reasons.

The reaction is the norm. Our concern is our player. We don't care what happens to Son. It should have been a red card. He should be banned. He isn't. But it has no effect on us. So what does it matter? If one of the games he was banned for was against us, then it's a different story, but that's not the rules. Our concern should now be Gomes and him getting back to full fitness as quickly as possible.

But his recovery is long, arduous and lonely. I expect this will not be the last operation he has on the ankle, and the club are taking an overly optimistic view, in order to boost Gomes' spirits. Gomes needs to be surrounded by complete positivity, and no one should be talking about anything but best case scenarios. The reality is there is always complications with ankles, and most players need 3 or 4 surgeries to fix serious breaks. Didn't someone on here say they had a similar injury and had 8 surgeries and never regained full range of movement?

The fact that the sending off has been overturned can be argued about, and I am sure that if you ask people who don't support Everton or Spurs they would be split down the middle as to whether it should have been rescinded.

Brian, I was on twitter after the game, and I did not see one neutral agree with me that it was a red card. The phone in on Talkshite (5 Live had the F1 on) concluded that it was a yellow, with only one blue saying it was a red. Adrian Loudmouth took our side, but he is Mr Contrary, and there was at least two Blues who said it was a yellow. I think split down the middle is a stretch. I think the public at large think it was a yellow by an overwhelming majority.

Well everything is alright in the world then...……..poor old Son

All we need to do now is help Gomes with his recovery, and focus on Southampton away...

We see loads of similar tackles every week.

Let's watch the Southampton game and see if there any similar tackles and see how many players get sent off.

As mentioned in a previous thread. Had Son made that tackle and Gomes' studs not caught in the turf but hurt his knee and carried on and scans after the game shown he'd be out for the next 6 weeks, would Son have been given a retrospective red card ?

Nowadays blaming poor decisions is most managers get out of jail card, its the first thing they mention when interviewed. Very rarely do you hear a manager being interviewed after the game blame his own inefficiencies. Far to easy to appease his own fans by blaming referees decisions, that way he shifts the blame from his shoulders.

I have as many issues with refs as everybody else, and even with VAR which was brought in to try and eradicate these mistakes it hasnt helped at all. But seems these days the blame culture that seems to have invaded all walks of life is to frequently used as an excuse.

This article is superbly written, and I agree with the overall premise.

I've read on these pages that our Club is "too nice" in the past. I simply discounted those comments, thinking whomever wrote them were a bit over the top.

In this instance, Everton were entirely too nice. We allowed Spurs to drive the narrative, and we really said and did nothing, other than release an update on Gomes' surgery.

There are so many reasons Everton's approach and lack of leadership and action are not acceptable in this instance. If I get into it too deep, the post will run on forever, so, buzzwords: lack of leadership, not protecting player, not protecting their interests, pacifist approach to justice, spineless, cowardice, etc.

I've really never been overly critical of the Board or Everton hierarchy. But they have failed miserably in how they've handled this situation.

Great article Martin. Someone had to say it, and you've done so marvelously.

However I had previously sent them an email after the Brighton shambolic decision. I sent another email on Sunday plus another one when the red card was over turned yesterday.

By the way you can grade them, my Brighton email was strong, borderline abusive, on Sunday, it got stronger and yesterday more-so.

No swearing but naming Mason, Taylor (VAR) idiots, Riley as well, should be sacked, the PL management either corrupt or morons - so now you have my tone & drift.

I have just received (to be fair an unexpected) reply to my Brighton email, (don't think they will respond to my two subsequent missives).

Actually had I received the reply below before Sunday my further emails would have been even more abusive when I see the use of the phrases "high bar" and how its content seems to 100% contradict actual recent decisions.

Thought it might be of interest:

------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your email

We understand there are a range of views on VAR and we appreciate you taking the time to contact us.

The use of VAR in the Premier League is guided by the IFAB protocol, which can be viewed in full at the link below:

https://www.theifab.com/projects/vars/background-scope

Match officials sometimes make mistakes which can impact the outcome of a match. While VAR will not achieve 100 per cent accuracy, it has been introduced to help lead to more correct, and fairer, judgements. It’s important to note that its use was also unanimously agreed by our Clubs.
The VAR is constantly monitoring the match but is only used for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents, in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity.

To help maintain the pace and intensity of matches there is a high-bar for VARs to intervene in subjective decisions. No two incidents are the same, and so each is subject to its own unique interpretations by both the on-field match officials and the VAR. The high-bar philosophy is designed to ensure VARs will intervene only if, in their judgement, a clear and obvious error has been made. In all cases, the final decision will always be taken by the on-field referee.

Factual decisions such as offsides are not subject to the clear and obvious test. If the VAR sees an error has been made in such a situation they will intervene, regardless of how marginal the decision is.

You can read a great deal more on use of VAR in the Premier League at the link below:

https://www.premierleague.com/VAR

We understand the need to ensure supporters in stadiums are aware of VAR interventions and their outcome. The referee will point to their ear to indicate a review is in place, and gesture with a ‘TV signal’ when the process is completed, before communicating the final decision. Premier League graphics are displayed on big screens and information can also be relayed over PA systems. If VAR has been involved in changing a decision made by the on-field referee, then the Club can also show a definitive video clip to help explain what has happened.

VAR was introduced following rigorous testing. It is a significant innovation and so naturally we will continue to review all aspects of its use and to consult with match and club officials, players and supporters. Analysis will help us to understand its effectiveness and to evaluate any potential changes. We cannot comment on specific incidents, but please be assured that we do share all supporter feedback with our Football Relations team and update our Executive. We will also be discussing VAR regularly with our Clubs over the course of the season to understand their views and to help shape any further developments Thanks for taking the time to contact us, and I hope this helps to explain our position.

Kind regards
Tommy

Pointless for Silva to come out foaming at the mouth, as it will change nothing.

Take a leaf out of the Moyes book and send a copy of all the atrocious decisions that have gone against us with VAR, penalty decisions etc, make it public that we've done it and request a response from the FA.

Happened after Wenger called Johnson a diver and lo and behold a few games later we get a pen.

Never a red and it's irrelevant now, as we got the benefit of the red. Son went off and they were down to 10 men and we equalised.

2/3 or even a 10 match ban benefits no-one else but the teams Spuds face, not us.

Move on.

What MP/Beckham incident?

I remember he was left in the wake of Michael Owen in the Argentina match in 1998 before the latter scored that goal if that's the game you mean?

I'm not defending MP and his players. They have a history of ill discipline and cheating which, because two of the culprits are English, the media give a free pass.

Although I did laugh when someone above said the winners get to set the agenda. Spurs haven't won anything recently, the last time I checked...

My main fear other than for Andre is not about Everton being too nice. It is that this will usher back one holding midfielder who, somehow, manages to get into the side by hook or by crook and it never bodes well.

Lets just sit and take it and move on, good little Everton.

I swear the people saying, "this type of tackle happens all the time", and "it's not a red card", etc.

Were they alive prior to WWII, they would have voted for and supported Neville Chamberlin.

"Nothing to see here." [wasn't that bad of a tackle, no intended harm]

"If you punish Germany for invading Poland, you'll need to punish half the world. Countries invade one another all the time." [those types of tackles happen all the time]

"Putting up a fight and going to war could prove challenging. Best not to fight back." [Everton's approach post-event, and everyone accepting the tackle wasn't heinous with a tragic outcome]

On Sunday I posted but one comment and no more and didn't return to TW until the following day:

"Grateful for the equaliser, but a horrible game in so many aspects. No appetite to comment further."

Primarily this was due to the sickening injury to Andre Gomes. It's about 40 years on now, but whilst playing park football a team mate and dear friend suffered a compound fracture. Players from both teams and spectators reacted in the same way as players from both teams and nearby spectators reacted at Goodison on Sunday.

NOTHING prepares you to witness at close quarters such an horrendous injury. You cannot fake your reaction as some have suggested Son did to gain leniency from the referee.

Each and every time I see such an injury in any game - be it an Everton player or not - the psychological scar of what I witnessed 40 years ago immediately resurfaces. I felt it when Seamus broke his leg. When James McCarthy did likewise. It returned again on Sunday.

Each time I was overwhelmed by nausea and dizziness. I have never - and never will - sought out or looked at a replay of any of those incidents.

It's the prime reason why I haven't entered into the discussion of how culpable Son was and whether his red card was merited or should have been overturned as it has been. I simply haven't looked at a frame-by-frame replay of the incident to determine who did what when, or how and when exactly Andre broke his ankle.

I understand the outrage and sense of injustice. I understand that Andre's injury and long term loss to the team compounds the sense of injustice many feel about the poor referring and the VAR decisions that went against us in the game.

What I don't understand is the opening post using all of the above AND the good gestures by our players, in particular that of our skipper who himself knows only too well the impact of such an injury, to berate the club for 'poor PR' and allowing Spurs to 'control the dialogue'.

To me, it is hugely ironic that Martin's opening post closes with the words: "The club really needs to get its priorities right."

Well excuse me, but I rather took a lot of pride in how the Everton players reacted in-match and post-match. The non-playing Seamus on the touchline immediately saw the severity of the injury and frantically called for the medical staff. Any number of Everton - AND Spurs players - covered their faces, turned away, stood in shock. In the background, spectators did likewise.

Cenk Tosun in particularly was huge, cradling Andre's head in his hands, talking to him, in the same way as the teenage John Stones stood out and did the same when Bryan Oviedo broke his leg at Stevenage.

Seamus is being criticised for comforting Son onfield and going into the changing room again post-match. I consider that indicts Seamus' accusers rather than the player, that he is condemned for displaying compassion and basic human decency. Or do his accusers think he wasn't concerned for Andre at all and expended all his sympathy on Son and Son alone?

As someone pointed out on another thread, there was a game last season when a player came flying into Baines down the left flank in a seriously dangerous challenge. Seamus charged across the width of the field to grab the offending player and lay down the law. He knew exactly what he saw and just how dangerous is potentially was for Leighton. If memory serves me right, this was close to half time and Seamus continued to give the opposing player grief as they left the pitch.

I think it's reasonable to assume Seamus would NOT have so readily excused Son or empathized with him as he did if he thought for one second there was malicious intent in what the Spurs player did.

In conclusion, I personally don't give a flying feck on whether Everton 'controlled the dialogue' or 'won the PR war' with Spurs since Sunday.

Of much deeper concern to me, understandably forgotten and overlooked due to the inevitable debate about the injury, the officiating and the VAR calls, is that this was yet another poor performance by Everton and now extends to 22 PL games under Silva in which we have conceded the first goal and failed to recover to win.

It hides that the win v WHU has not proven to be a 'turning point' as some boldly claimed at the time. It hides that we have taken just 4 points from a possible 21 in our last 7 games (5 defeats) against largely modest opposition. It hides that there has been no discernible improvement in results or performances this season, only regression.

It was already proving a challenge for Silva. Both long-term and niggling short-term injuries are now threatening to seriously deplete our squad in key areas.

If things were already challenging for Silva with a full squad to pick from, it's going to be even more challenging for him now. Conversely, it may force his hand to promote fringe players, or young players from the U-23s, to the first team.

It often happens that by accident, rather than design, a struggling manager forced into changes gets lucky and the team's fortunes changes.

Here's hoping that may happen now for Silva and the team.

"Existing evidence is divided on the outcome and post-surgical recovery for ankle fracture-dislocations. Some large studies of ankle fracture-dislocations have reported a good to excellent outcome in 82% of patients during a 2 to 6 years follow-up period.

"While ankle fractures show a significant improvement in function in 6 months to 1 year following surgery, the combined fracture-dislocation (particularly if it is an open injury) considerably delays the full functional recovery (potentially up to 24 months).

24 MONTHS potentially to full recovery. Is Gomes going to "move on?" We have a debate about the passivity of Silva and the club, but many of the fans are the same. Son put in a challenge to get his own back on Gomes and may have destroyed the career of one of our players. Then we have our fans on TW threads rationalising away the tackle and the rescinding of the red card. No wonder we are regarded as an easy target by the Permier League and patronised by the media.

Everton, nice passive club and fans - if we need to make an example of someone for diving, we have Niasse. If we want to prove VAR can overturn a penalty decision, we have Keane. If we don't want to penalise Champions League club too harshly, we forgive Son.

People talk about the 1984-85 team quite rightly as one of our greatest ever. On another thread, someone says that the current squad should be locked in a room and forced to watch the film. When Brian Marwood ended Inchy's season with a disgusting tackle in that season, Peter Reid ended his. Show that clip to the team and the likes of Tony J Williams. Stop being so reasonable and nice and we might actually stop getting treated like fools and earn some respect.

Rant over.

He should agree with the Spurs manager, and tell him to ask the league can we play those minutes again with equal numbers on the pitch, as long as the snide bastard accepts that first Everton must take the two penalties that were wrongly turned down.

The only thing I would comment on was that these tackles do indeed happen all the time.
Obviously not all with those consequences but all have the potential to cause serious injury.

Now if the referees deal with every single case the same and send off - as per Nicks train of thought - every culprit of a similar tackle then fair enough, however, as mentioned I doubt any game, including ours will finish up 11 a side.

We can argue all day, and nobody is more pissed off then me, but the fact remains. Similar tackles do indeed happen most games.
Unlike the Second World War, nobody has yet died.

5Live this morning, sport bulletin, 5am, I was disgusted.

Pochettino: “I was confident,” he said. “We were all confused after the game, I was talking with different people and the referee too.

“There was confusion, but now it is completely fair that in the end he is not going to be suspended.

“But we cannot change the result, playing with 10 men opened the game for them and we ended losing the two points.

“But the good news is Sonny is going to be available.”

Silva can’t keep quiet now surely, Poscetino has just gave him the perfect ball to be hit out the ground for a six?

Although I'm inclined to agree with what Jay Wood said, and having seen one of my friends break his leg in a match, I would say that no one is thinking. You're in shock and on auto-pilot.

Tony, shouldn't we have all the motivation we need for Southampton. "Doing it for Andre", "doing it for Marco", "personal pride", etc, etc. We just need to focus on ourselves, get ourselves prepared and ready for Saints and play our best game, because if we play our best game, injuries or not, we beat these.

My reference you're taking out of context entirely.

It's the link of pacifism and acceptance of wrong-doing between the mindset of Chamberlin, and those who feel it's not worth the fight to challenge the overruling / protestations of the red card / FA.

It's valid, and only offensive if you have the constitution of a Neville Chamberlin fanboy.

I didn't compare the atrocities of war - death, injury, dismemberment, destruction - to anything having to do with this instance. Only a nutter and a fool would.

It's the pacifist mindset link - that and that only - to which I bring up Neville Chamberlin and the similarities of those people not wanting to challenge a single thing about this decision and tackle. Pacifism, lack of fight, failure to protect their own.

Not the atrocities of war. Good Lord, man. You can reference characters and events within and surrounding the era, without a direct comparison to the fallout from war itself. Surely you're intelligent enough to recognize that, and see the difference?

Pacifism. That's where the link starts and ends.

Atkinson pulled a yellow then after a delay a red. Presumbaly either because a)the VAR told him it was a red. or b)he saw how serious it was and decided on a red.
After the game the PL issued a statement saying it was the correct call. Now it was apparently wrong.
So, based on the aforementioned I have to ask. Why have VAR over ruling refs if a second set of VAR people (third adjudicators in all) can over rule them after the game? Why not then add a fourth and a fifth set of panelists to rule and re-rule?
If Atkinson changed his mind because of the extent of the injury, if that shouldn't be part of the equation then why doesn't an EPL ref know the rules?

Is laughing stock a bit harsh or are we just a soft touch just a soft touch? phew, was worried a bit there for a minute.

Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp ALL have in common the tactic of using both media and sideline antics to bully officials anybody who thinks this doesnt effect the refs calls are living in la-la land

Sean Dyche has taken it upon himself to "try" to discuss the cancer of diving in the game and he is being fobbed off as doesnt fit the agenda and beside how else will Mane ,Salah be able to instigate a late pen when needed if not for the good old dive

For the refs they don't want to be watching the "wrong" calls they have made been put under microscope and made to look foolish, Self preservation is a most base human instinct

The point of VAR is it puts SKY/BT Jamie (spit in your daughters face) Carragher now in control of the outcome of games - Simple

You can even see it on a weekly Basis , Klopp raises a complaint about a VAR call one week ,,next week we ALL agree is not a free

I'm sure there's plenty of counter-arguments and contrarian works defending Chamberlain.

As I'm sure there's many pieces written on how the Americans were too slow, failing to act too late, sitting within their borders as an isolationist stance was the thinking of the day.

We've all been supporting this Club through thick and thin forever

Some of us fought tooth and nail against the disgrace of Kirkby. Were part of those who marched and were slagged by fellow Blues and accused of Kopite behaviour trying to get rid of Kenwright and his mob.
Probably a lot of those supporters who accused us of Kopite behaviour are those saying we should be more like the RS and not accept our present situation !

It wasn't a red card, simple as that.
However much we might want it to be red unfortunately it wasn't

They made it worse by changing the yellow to red at the time and giving that daft excuse why they decided it was a red.

After a couple of days when things had calmed down a bit, the red was appealed and the appeal upheld.

We are all totally pissed off with everything that happened on Sunday but of everything, unfortunately, the red card was the easiest one to sort out.
Accepting that isn't pacifism it was just the way it is and has always been.

The biggest travesty is that all this shit has deflected issues like the shite performance of team and manager

I think football has already gone too soft, with the cheats and the divers already ruining our sport, and as bad and unfortunate as this was for Gomes, then the next step is only going to take us to a game without contact imo.

Think about it? Everton never got a penalty on Sunday because they said Mina had put Deli-Ali under pressure, from a fuckin corner kick of all things, with the blind definitely leading the stupid, and I hope Silva definitely responds to what Pochettino has had to say because of this.

You say:
It wasn't a red card, simple as that.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

There's a thread going on right now congratulating Lyndon and Michael on 25 years of TW.

I'd tell you now, your submissions, my responses, Steve Ferns injections, all of the debate around this Gomes injury, much of it stated with passion and yes, some controversy, is why TW is heroine for me. This is the aspect of TW I adore - the differing opinions and viewpoints of all matters between posters / members. In particular, how I view something, and how that is viewed by folks from a different country, with a similar but unique and different culture.

I learn from it. I take it all on board.

Evoking the name of Neville Chamberlin and assumed pacificism as you describe it into a footy debate is putting the jackboot, as it were, on the other foot when people use the Reductio ad Hitlerum ad hominem argument (playing the Hitler card, if you like) as a means to undermine the position of another by effectively calling them a Nazi who supports all the evils that are associated with that movement.

Try maintaining a bit of perspective, Jamie.

effectively calling them a Nazi who supports all the evils that are associated with that movement.

No. You're taking a step that's too far. You're inferring and making an assumption.

Again, the pacifist link. That's it.

You're entitled to your opinion, albeit out of place and misguided.

My perspective is just fine, for me, thank you.

Surely it would be telling Posh to pipe-down and show some respect to a football team, who showed some proper humanity to his player last Sunday, (because I’m not sure every other team would have reacted like Everton?) and also to tell these refs, that it’s about time they stopped cheating his own team, because they are getting away with murder at the minute.

He can say what he wants to his own players Steve, but sometimes it’s about showing the outside world that we’ve had enough of the bullshit, and who knows? It might even lead to a few of his own players suddenly developing a bit more bollocks on the pitch? (No puns)

With teams 18th & 19th to play next the reality needs to be focused on that. The events of Sunday and the article above have merit so does the discussion on VAR. They are a distraction.

We are 17th lads. A manger drowning, a team rudderless, a director of football who hasn’t uttered a word on our position. An owner who now seems paralyzed to act following his previous decisions.

This is were the club is failing, not waging a phoney PR war or berating journalists for trashing our best player.

We’ve been sat in the bottom half nay bottom six for weeks. It stinks down in the basement.

Whatever the intent was, Son did not want Gomes to get a serious injury, but the action caused a major injury, and that was not beyond the realm of a possibility that it could have been a career ending injury.

As people are saying Son is not that type of player (whatever that means ) he deliberately tackled Gomes and the consequences of the tackle was what the referee gave the red card for and it should have been upheld.

This decision along with VAR and the influence of Skye is the reason supporters are being dissatisfied with the modern game, with some no longer supporting it.

Dont complain you get nothing is what I say

Also i agree we need to move on , there will be plenty of time to ponder VAR, injuries, passivity when we are in the Championship

Ps just because you are in tune with your perspective, doesn’t mean you are not fucking nuts, I just need to get off T/W, and watch Mac-Murphy taking them all out to sea!!

I haven't accused you AT ALL of playing the Nazi card.

I quite clearly state that YOUR evocation and introduction of Neville Chamberlin and his assumed pacifism into the debate is, in effect, the polar opposite of playing the Hitler card and all the negative associations with Nazism.

The heavy implication of your words in post 71 is that Everton as a club and any supporter who takes even a moderately balanced view to the claims of the opening post are yellow-backed, white-flag-waving surrender monkeys.

It's not me offering a 'misplaced and misguided opinion' or lacking perspective in my posts in this thread, Jamie.

We need more squeaky wheels on the field, on the training ground, in the dug out, in the offices, in the boardrooms and on the terraces.

Staying passive is an invitation to get continually Shat on.

I hope supporters are not going on Leicesters game against Southampton as yardstick for us this weekend as I watched that game and it was pouring with rain with a gusty wind and after Leicester went 1 up Southampton had a man sent off, a goal down and this plus the weather just knocked the fight out of Southampton players

I suspect if Silva says anything in response that he will be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. That apart, I'd rather the joker focus on coaching the team as they need his full attention

I've made plenty of noise this season that we might end up in a relegation scrap if something doesn't change soon.

The next 6 games will give us the answers I think, then if Moshiri is determined to leave Silva in charge for the whole season come what may, I think as many others do, the outcome will of been self inflicted.

I spoke to me dar, he was critical of Everton on Sunday, and although I understood his point of view, I thought that was the best defensive shape we had played with all season, and felt we would have won the game if Iwobi, hadn’t helped to give away that stupid goal.

His argument was that Spurs were not really attacking, but that was the only positive thing I took from Sunday, and the next couple of games will show me if I’m right or if I was wrong.

I know goals win games, but clean sheets are so important especially when you are at the wrong end of the league, but I do worry about the fragility of some of our players, and that’s why I hope Silva speaks up.

Also is just the way other factors seem to be pilling up to make as bad a season as Koeman/Allardyce, As you say we will know by Xmas

Either way Silva is not the man to lead us to BMD that destiny I believe lies with Eddie Howe but let us see

@Tony

I agree we were very much in the game against Spurs but dont forget they are having an awful season and no kane and we are at home ,,at present for me the only team we are bettter than is Watford for what thats worth

Somebody made a great point about Silva on the forum that not only is he a poor manager but even worse an unlucky one ,,a lethal mix

I know it won’t unite the crowd though because too many people have already made up their minds on Marco Silva, and I don’t think anything he does or says will help pull everyone together, I only have to read T/W to realise this.

"non of our recent managers including Moyes would have done anything about this" too soft, bad PR etc...

Well thats not entirely true is it?

One man was as cynical as all the top guys. One man would have practiced and trained his players on how to get the best out of VAR.

One man would have twisted the Richarlison narrative in our favour rather than let mr Atkinson play the tough guy. They way klopp or sollksjaer would never allow Atkinson to do it if it was mane or rashford who was getting kicked everywhere.

And you all know which fat c**t it was. The fat c**t you all chased.

When given are current stature he was exactly the type of c**t we need. And he wouldn't have needed a smart arse DoF on loads of money to waste £100's of millions on promise.

And is the football any better? Well I know one thing. We'd be conceding less, getting more decissions and probably have a goalscorer up front!

Anyway just saying. I wouldn't want Silva getting any of the blame this season after the hand he's been dealt but, there is lot he can learn from the gravey swigger.

There's even more our fans could learn as well imho. No matter who takes over our great club, even if its Tony pulis, I think they all deserve to be judged on their performance from day one here, with a clean slate. Not by what the blag media painted them to be. And they all need to be judged with some perspective, evidence based reasoning rather than clichéd preconceived notions and bandwagon theories.

i.e. the debacle the fat one inheritted.
The shambles of a window and the injury crisis for silva.

Maybe the board don't have a great PR team in place? But were was brands? Surely that incident made him run downstairs to discuss matters with our coaching staff pre presser's?

I believe the board are ultimately responsible for the lack of professionalism, small club mentality and soft arsed nature.

Glad to see a number of posters have attempted to put you straight. Sad to see no hint of a retraction.

I'll help you: step back and admit that invoking 'Pacifism' – and specifically your characterization of Neville Chamberlain – was well off-base and completely inappropriate to the discussion.

Everton: current form projects us to 38 pts
Southampton: current form projects them to 28 pts
Norwich: current form projects them to 24 pts
Watford: current form projects them to 15, yes 15, pts

One may not like the excuse that we're likely safe because the table is awful this year, but it's still a fact. Unless of course you're so pessimistic that you believe the bottom 3 teams will greatly improve while we get somehow worse.

Who knows amongst this lot how much weight is put on stats, but Everton's indicate that we should be around 7th-8th, which points to a number of things. Poor clinical finishing is an obvious one, but (un)luck certainly comes into play. I can't even remember all the posts or bars we've hit, but a simple law of averages would mean at least a couple of them would bounce into the goal! We're talking a matter of inches here.

The analogy and link of Evertons reluctance to take a strong stance in relation to Neville Chamberlain was a poor one, and a reach.

I apologize for any offense.

When a moderator tells me I’m out of line, I will always listen.

Apologies for any offense.

If he turns it around I’m sure the fans will get on board. At this point, I think he’s an unproven joker but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. It would be much easier to build on what we have versus ripping it up and starting over. If we beat Soton it’s a step in the right direction.

As for Seamus, as club captain, instead of going to the Spurs dressing room, he should have gone straight to the hospital to check on his team mate and not worried about someone who had just committed a vengeful snide tackle from behind, which everyone knows is dangerous.

Even Atkinson, who sent off Rodwell for being in the vicinity of Dracula, saw the seriousness of it.

I also go along with Jamie Crowley's passionate version of Everton's reluctance to get involved with a defence of the way we were/ are treated by those in charge of running the premier league, he has apologised for using the Chamberlain bit, we are treated like an irrevalence and it definitely time for someone at the club to stand up and ask why we are treated this way. We fans care so it's time for Everton FC to show that they care.

I myself would have to work extremely hard to find anyting "offensive" in what you posted but if you feel the need to apologize that is up to you

For rigth or wrong Chamberliain will always be a metaphor for tepid apeasment in favour of facing down imminent threats, and futility thereof ,,this is the analogy you used you didnt say or even imply that anybody was acting like Nazis ,is my 2 cents

Anyways more important the WW2 is our iminent threat of relegation :(

@Alan 117

Very funny post i really enjoyed reading and you do have a point ,,but didnt we have something like 2 shots on goal in 6 of FS last PL games ?? His big mouth on the sideline is all we should be missing though

I've just seen the picture for the first time on the GoT page which shows Gomes' studs in the ground, foot twisting and Son steaming in from behind, his leg clearly impacting with Gomes' foot. I had thought that the yard dog Auriel had exacerbated with his momentum, but seeing that photo, if the FA were to view it, makes the card rescinding outrageous. It's obviously not deliberate but his intention to hurt looks pretty transparent.

Clear red.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157931023655337&set=p.10157931023655337&type=3&theater

And then you go and criticise Seamus for his response to the incident. I don’t want to insult you, but the thoughts in my head are not very complimentary right now. After everything that happened you think that the appropriate thing to do is to come on here and have a go at Coleman for showing compassion to the other team and criticise Son for not shedding tears?

TY for supporting my submissions.

Jer, you say:

I myself would have to work extremely hard to find anyting "offensive" in what you posted but if you feel the need to apologize that is up to you

For rigth or wrong Chamberliain will always be a metaphor for tepid apeasment

When one of the founding Fathers of TW tells you your comments are, "totally fucking stupid and asinine", it's time to apologize and give up the fight. I don't have the guts or bravery to argue with Michael. I think it's best to just reel it in, call it a day, and hope to play nice moving forward. I find it difficult to take on a behemoth of TW, and just want us all to play nice.

I wish I had the courage to stand my ground, but alas, I don't. It's easier to take a pacifist stance moving forward.

But I do appreciate your comments.

, ,I kid of course :), , is up to you how you wish to proceed
You can agree to disagree with Micheal and move on, ,I fail to see how you set out or indeed managed to offend anybody by what you said is all

Its funny how so often the people so quick to take offence "on behalf" of the fallen, forget for what exactly it was they paid the ultimate price ( ie the freedom to express ideas without fear of recrimination ) This is not a dig at Micheal or TW as what I am talking about is a bigger sociatal issue that everybody is aware of which has no place on a footie website

Now as far as I am concerned you have the right to be offended and the right to change channel if you don't like what you see /hear and thats it, ,, but thats just me and probably why I don't run any websites :)

Onwards and upwards we have a relegation dog fight to concern ourselves with

To his credit, Jamie - on the prompting of Michael - has apologized and acknowledged the analogy he used was a poor one.

I don't see anyone being 'offended' by Jamie's (in the editor's words) 'stupid and asinine' post. Just a few comments on how bizarre the analogy was to throw into the Son-Gomes debate.

Lest we forget (you may or may not get that reference), just last week Jamie himself spoke with wholesome pride on the club's initiative to offer benefits to Evertonian service men and women.

He also shared with us the extremely moving story of his own kid brother's experience and resultant traumas serving with the American military. He was warmly praised by many a TWer, including myself.

Lest we forget, it is estimated anything between 70-85 million died worldwide as a result of the 2nd World War. 3% of the global population at that time.

Jamie's reference to Neville Chamber and to the 2nd World War in association to the Son-Gomes-Club PR topic of this thread wasn't even fanciful. It was crass.

It would have been crass at any time of the year, but it is all the more crass in this month, at this time. Or did either you or Jamie fail to note the absence of the pre-match siren on Sunday? The representation of the Armed Forces on the pitch before kick off? The playing of the Last Post in tribute to the fallen? The players' shirts bedecked with the poppy motif? The coaching staff and spectators in the crowd also bedecked with a poppy?

Personally, I am not comfortable with any glorification of nationhood or war. Analogies have their place. But to make the linkage Jamie did between the topic of this article to the deaths of tens of millions of people during the 2nd World War..?

As Jamie himself now acknowledges, "it was a poor one, and a reach."

@Jamie 131 Your Worse than Chamberlain ffs!!!

Hmmmm. 🤔

Thankfully you can't know what's in my mind, any more than we can know what was in Son's mind when he made that tackle.

Example : I quote
"But to make the linkage Jamie did between the topic of this article to the deaths of tens of millions of people during the 2nd World War..? You see Here is the problem

Jamie didnt do that YOU did ??????? Please explain where Jamie did this ? YOU just did it there, ,he just made a point of the pasivity of Chamberlain and the same traits in our club, ,if you CHOOSE to take offense on behalf of everybody that died in WW1/2 well that is YOUR choice

As Jamie himself now acknowledges, "it was a poor one, and a reach.
"

Thats his choice he didnt set out to offend anybody and didnt, Jay you chose to take offense on behalf of millions of dead soldiers, I am sorry we have to disagree on this and you can use as many corpses as you like to try to win an arguement I am well aware of the brutality of war and conflict

Anyways I have said my 2 cents on the subject and Jamie please check yourself before posting anything that "may" cause offense to anybody for anything

Just move on. I'm sorry - now just as much for the diversion as I am the reference.

Michael -

I think your prior post to me should read in it's original form:

"totally fucking stupid and asinine"

And not the edited version now appearing as:

"...Jamie, what an asinine post at #71."

It didn't offend me in the least, and I'm rather surprised it was changed and toned down, dropping "totally fucking stupid".

Your site, do what you want. Sanitation is totally fucking stupid in this instance, but whatever.

Getting back to EFC. It appears that one of our better players suffered what was almost a career-threatening injury on Sunday but as is the way of the world now the nation is in sympathy with a Sky team. Their players were so upset. They'll probably resort to litigation against Gomes for distress caused.

If ever, EVER, there was a chance for this team to say a collective Fuck You to Sky, BT, MotD,it is now.
I was brought up on the School of Science in the 60s but I want to see us fight, gouge, dive, cheat, win penalties, and generally make referees lives hell for the rest of the season.

No-one likes us anyway, seemingly, so let's cowboy up and kick some arse.

Rant over. Peace and good will.

There’s a lot of frustration and anger and rightfully so.

Accepting that there’s always major incidents in every game and terrible fouls, in most games, and in context, of EFC, it doesn’t get much worse at the moment.

Steve Fearns is right and we must channel our energies, and feelings into beating Soton, and bracing for the onslaught of tough fixtures the next two months.

But the injustices of football as in life are tough to take, and we grow stronger, but when at the end of some day will EFC, first team start playing good consistently and be challenging, genuinely for trophies? That’s the reality and is the killer.

It’s feeling like we are just making the numbers up, and going through the motions again, as another season is compost, before Chrimbo.

Yet again the most common cliche of recent years and the Soton, game is massive, but for the wrong reasons.

Lose on Saturday, we are in big trouble, but we lose and get mauled, I see the door being left open for the manager and coaching staff, to depart a Finch Farm, on Sunday.

The lives and times of a Evertonians, is these days the road to no where.

BMD or not, the club, is in a very difficult position. It will be interesting to see if we can progress by Leicester and try and dig out a good FA Cup run.

That’s all that’s left, to try and win, but staying up for me is more important. Let’s hope the starting team v Soton, get right in and turn them over for 95 mins.

Make Evertonians proud at least for the day, as the supporters do deserve a good day, for a change.

It is contended that his alleged "pacifist" stance bought the UK a year to build up its military strength. So maybe he was not the appeasing fool history has portrayed him to be and therefore it would be imprudent to use him as a cowardice analogy.

The gist of my post was, it was May 2020, Spurs and Everton are 17th and 18th respectively. Only separated by Tottenham's superior goal difference, which was enhanced tremendously through the month of November 2019 by Son......

@Tony 150
Part 2 is best, Jeff Beck is some man on the Axe

Don't ask - don't get.
Ask - don't get.
Never ask - Never get.

As to fined a weeks wages, that would be a real punishment for me. If I was on Silva's money, more a minor inconvenience...I'd be inclined to get my money's worth, fortunes would be told and Industrial language might ensue.

Even if it is in Silva's, Moshiri's or anybody else's nature, we all know it won't happen - just like Son is not that sort of player (being red-carded for something similar last season) so he actually is... we're not that sort of club.

You could have a reign of terror at Everton with a balloon on a stick.

Don't want to be a doom-monger, but I suffered a displaced ankle fracture in a student footie match [against a team of bloody Doctors, would you believe?! - St. George's Hospital, London]. I still have some pain and discomfort in the ankle … forty years later!!

Spare a thought for poor old Cenk Tosun … comes on as a late sub. immediately scores a decent goal and nobody anywhere has said a single word about it!

Red card or not... that's baffling.

I personally don't give a flying headbutt what you think of me as I don't know you but, after listening to Sky news about how Son 'has put a difficult few days behind him to help his team to victory', I feel vindicated: the 'man' looked like he never wanted to play again, yet just 3 days later, he's having the game of the season!

Seamus is one of my favourite players, but being the club captain, he should have been more concerned with his team mate, and not somebody who has just committed a nasty foul in revenge, and then gets all the sympathy. Coleman was not even involved in the game and not so long ago, suffered a terrible leg break himself, so answer this: who should have been more important to the Everton captain, the victim or the perpetrator?

Strange that 'taking offense' was brought up. It was never about giving or anyone taking offense. Jay's analysis @133 is spot-on.

I can only assume it was Lyndon who changed my post — he's gone all McFarlane and stopped me from fucking swearing. I am now offended!

The difference to me in this situation between the Coleman & McCarthy breaks is that they were clear accidents. You could see it was a freak occurrence in a contact sport but all players involved were honestly playing for the ball. In those instances all involved deserve attention.

Son deliberately played the man.

That to me automatically disqualifies him from any sympathy, any consoling, any "nice guy" tag.

I agree he could not predict the severe consequences but by deliberately playing the man he unnecessarily opened Gomes to injury.

I'm sick of seeing & hearing the media sympathising Son "coming through a couple of tough days".

The red card should have stood and he should be vilified by media, fans and pros alike not lauded for his "fortitude".

He played the man.