The Good Son

Martin O'Connor 06/11/2019 150comments  |  Jump to last

The fallout from the game against Tottenham Hotspur on 3rd November and the Son Heung-min - Andrei Gomes incident has been staggering in how the club lost the narrative and allowed Spurs to set the agenda. In no time at all, Tottenham had set the parameter of the debate, making Son Heung-min out as some sort of victim who needed sympathy and, of course, his red card now rescinded.

Let’s get this right: no-one thinks that Son intended to cause Gomes to break and dislocate his ankle. But Son intended to leave (as they say) “a bit on Gomes”. It was a tackle intended to hurt. That is clear from seeing the incident in the ground and watching it back home on the television. After he has fouled Gomes, the reaction of Son holding his hands up in a “Sorry, ref, never meant it” gesture, shows he knew a card was coming, be it yellow or red. It is only when he looks at what has happened to Gomes that the tears start to roll.

How much these are real or partly because he knew he was now in big trouble is a matter of conjecture. We have so-called pundits coming out saying it should have been a yellow card. The answer to that is, “Don’t be stupid”. Son meant to hurt Gomes, but just not as badly as happened. His reckless tackle caused the injury, wrecking Gomes’s season, and he deserved to be sent off.


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It is what follows which is ridiculous. After the game, we have Tottenham Hotspur putting out a statement hoping Gomes makes a quick recovery, never wanting to see this happen to any player etc. Ben Davies and Dele Alli are wheeled out to the television screens to say they hope Gomes makes a quick recovery but Son is not that sort of player, would not hurt a fly, a great person, and he is really down and shaken about what has happened.

Next, in the post-match press conference, Pochettino spouts the same thing. He continually calls Son, “Sonny”, trying to make him sound such a nice young man or, as I would put it, a planned way of talking about him from the Tottenham PR Department. Once all this buttering up of “Sonny” had been done, Pochettino ends the conference saying they will appeal the red card.

Meanwhile back at good old Goodison Park, no mention of the tackle being reckless or the red being justified is mentioned. Instead, it’s “We accept Son never meant to cause the injury”, while good old Seamus goes round to the Tottenham dressing room to speak to good old “Sonny”.

By late Monday, all this syrup poured out about good old “Sonny” sees the red card rescinded. Next day, Pochettino – speaking at the Champions League press conference before they played Red Star Belgrade – says that “Sonny” is in the squad for the Red Star game.

"Now after a few days, everyone is available to play. He is in a very good way. He feels sorry like everyone, but he is in good form."

So much for the crocodile tears and the really down and shaken “Sonny”…

One has to say it was exemplary PR by Tottenham Hotspur to so quickly set the agenda, turning Son into the victim of the incident and even managing to get the red card rescinded. Meanwhile, Everton lose one of their main players, yet never once does the Club question the reckless nature of the tackle, but basically plays a part in and supports the poor “Sonny” tale.

Another outcome of the game on Sunday is the branding of Richarlison as a diver, although he was kicked around by Tottenham Hotspur throughout the game and was fouled in the box, for what should have been a penalty. No defence of Richarlison from Everton, in contrast to the shower across the park were Klopp comes out straight away defending Mane against accusations of diving from Guardiola on the same weekend.

Yet again, we are seen as a club to nice. We even gave support to "Sonny" while losing one of our main players, and we can't even defend our own player against accusations of diving.

The club really needs to get it priorities right.

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Reader Comments (150)

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Kevin O'Regan
1 Posted 06/11/2019 at 07:26:03
Martin, I respectfully diasgree on both accounts.
Son is no Roy Keane and very few are. Pretty sure he intended to tackle - yes maybe it was reckless, but so are many other tackles which happen - only many get away with it. There are lots of risks being taken going into a tackle as there are unknowns as to who gets ther first, and what way the other person will turn, slide or move. As a contact sport that's part of the course. What went on in Son's head is something only he can answer.
Richie seriously needs to get off the floor - yes, he does get kicked quite a bit, but he over-reactions are childish and damaging. And that's why the refs will not go out of their way to protect players like him and his buddy or idol Neymar.
Dave Evans
2 Posted 06/11/2019 at 07:31:03
Good old Everton.
One eye for history, the other for seeing both sides.
And a mind set to lose.
Ken Kneale
3 Posted 06/11/2019 at 07:31:22
Such as approach would require competence - sadly as iregularly pointed out, this is lacking at Everton on and off the field
Jeff Spiers
4 Posted 06/11/2019 at 07:36:31
EFC is turning into snowflakes. Start concentrating on the football side. More leaders with a bit of fight. No more pantomime theatrics. No more goody two shoes. Speedy recovery Mr. Gomes
Jim Harrison
5 Posted 06/11/2019 at 07:41:29
Kevin 1

Whilst it maybe fair to say the OP goes over the top in saying Son was effectively play acting at being upset, I can’t see how you reckon he was after the ball. It’s a shit challenge made with no chance of winning the ball. That’s where the ire comes from, it’s not to say he isn’t generally a good lad, but in this instance he has got it wrong.

Fair to say spurs have framed it well from their side, but I am not sure there is much Everton should be doing? There will be times it happens the other way round, and really on the day the advantage of having the extra player told.

Eddie Dunn
6 Posted 06/11/2019 at 08:08:09
For me Son was culpable and deserves a ban. I know some of our players tried to console the remorseful Son on the park but I think going into their changing room to continue the niceness is over the top. The bastard tried to foul our best player, was lacking the duty of care that should be afforded to a professional opponent. For all we know Gomes may never be the same or may never play again, or may always suffer discomfort from the ankle.
Even two former EFC players, Martin Keown and Kevin Kilbane said on MOTD that they thought it was only a yellow.
Of course both men live in North London and circulate in the London media scene (and access to Spurs players is important to them).
They are like so many in football. Kilbane's autobiography is devoid of anything controversial. The radio coverage was similar, Nevin saying over and over again that "Son was not that kind of player".
Who is "that kind of player"?
Neil Taylor wasn't that kind of player- we were told by the Welsh manager.
If you commit these fouls then you certainly are that kind of player.
As for Richarlison, the lad is an embarrassment and I have bemoaned this on here many times.
He was, however tripped by Sanchez cynically near the end of the match and Sanchez wasn't carded.
I don't know about other people but do you think we would have had so much media support for our player if the injured man had been Delli Ali and the tackler had been Walcott?
Derek Thomas
7 Posted 06/11/2019 at 08:21:43
Winners, it is said, get to write history. Everton aren't winners and as such, don't count. Spurs, the sky pundits, the BBC and general media are writing the history on this, on Richarlison, we don't even register as punching above our weight now.

They are telling the big lie, repeating it...and getting believed.

Danny Broderick
8 Posted 06/11/2019 at 08:37:59
It was only a yellow card challenge. Yes he caught him and intended to trip him up - but no, he wasn’t trying to hurt or injure him.

Fernandinho does similar fouls every week, to name but one player.

Fouls and injuries are part of football unfortunately. These things happen, vary rarely thankfully...

Tom Dodds
9 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:04:13
It’s yet again the same old topsy-turvy world of Everton fc that just stretches and yawns within the same old cycle of PR from the club that’s either tit-bits (re;stadium especially) or simply stone cold silence.

I cant even think of a manager weve had (lncluding Moyes) that would of Foghorn Lagorned at the FA/ref/ any fuckin’ thing or one that gave us any grief.

Ive given up me personally bein arsed because if they,and that includes the team aren’t arsed why the fuck should i/we be ??

Anyway get well soon Andre,and heres hoping you don't come back to face life in the championship.

Dave Abrahams
10 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:06:38
Danny (8), Fernandinho does commit these fouls quite a bit, nearly always to stop his opponent from going past him, Gomes was already past Son when he made that tackle from behind, a reckless tackle I might add.

I think Richarlison, if he is going to carry on with the diving, needs to get it right, he is too amateurish at the moment, Mane and Salah do it to perfection, practice it, wouldn’t be surprised if they go dance lessons to get cheorography lessons, going down in perfect graceful stages,you see the referees admiring the way they fall before pointing to the penalty spot. I never expect the referee to give them a yellow card, rather a big white one, with an eight, nine or even a ten on it.

Jim Harrison
11 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:12:22
Danny 8

I believe the guidelines have changed away from intent to outcome.

A pull back on the shirt is a yellow card, a block off can be a yellow card, a hand ball also. Fairly innocuous acts. So when a player takes another player out with little intent to actually win the ball there needs to be some degree of discretion on the referees part to assess the severity of the outcome before deciding on what action to take. This was not a mistimed challenge. It was a deliberate act to impede an opponent.

Steve Hogan
12 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:19:07
Spurs won the PR battle hands down, because EFC once again didn't even bother to turn up.

Not one utterance from the club or manager defending Richarlison from a number of media 'darlings', quick to point out the silliness of the forward.

Regarding the 'Son' incident, even more gross neglect, we have a soft streak running right through the club at the moment, starting at the top and ending up with a manager talking about 'respect for the laws of the game'.

No wonder were a 'soft touch' in games.

Michael Lynch
13 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:22:49
I think the OP is correct - Spurs have spun this brilliantly. On the other issue, Richarlison is an embarrassment to the club. It's not that he's diving - more often than not he has been fouled when he goes down - it's the dying swan act for the next 60 seconds that pisses everyone off. First time I saw it, I thought "fuck that's him out for the season", but now - like everyone else around me - I just scream "get the fuck up lad!".

I blame Marco Silva. He speaks the same language as Richarlison. For him not to have sorted this out is utterly ridiculous.

Dave Abrahams
14 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:27:56
Steve (12), Steve that soft spot has always been there, during a lull in the Watford cup match I looked up at the Park End Stand and read the lettering on it ‘ The Phillip Carter Stand’, Phillip Carter who never defended us getting banned from Europe, not a word. He later got a knighthood, maybe for not contesting our ban and giving Mrs. Thatchers government an easy ride.

I expect no complaints from the present chairman or CEO, wouldn’t be nice would it, typical Everton.

Ray Roche
15 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:34:10
Michael @13
Correct. Silva should grab the snivelling little shit by the throat and punch it into him. “No effin diving “! Richarlison’s pathetic play acting cost us a penalty on Sunday because when he WAS fouled in the area arsewipe Atkinson had seen so many dives that this was just the latest.
He probably wouldn’t have given it anyway but you get my drift.
Daniel A Johnson
16 Posted 06/11/2019 at 09:40:39
I honestly think both EFC and the players were too quick to absolve Son of blame.

If that tackle was on Salah it would be a totally different ball game right now.

In fact I'm sure the Red Scum would have burnt his house down by now and the Police charged son with GBH. Son would also have received a season long ban.

I agree with Steve Hogan from the get go in the press it quickly turned into poor old Son, poor old Spurs, and the injustice of it all.

I was even reading that Son might need counselling For fucks sake. No mention of poor old Gomes laying devastated in hospital, in pain and emotionally shattered because of a snidey petulant premediated cynical tackle by Poor old Son.

But hey he's not a bad lad.

Kim Vivian
17 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:02:50
I do believe that if Son had not taken that hit to his cheek then he would not have been hunting Gomes down quite like it appeared. I also believe it was not his intention to hurt him but just get a counter punch back in as you see every game. If a similar injury had happened to an opposition player from a similar cynical foul by, and resulting in a red for Gomes (who lets be honest, can be a bit sly and impetuous himself from time to time) we would be taking the same stance as Spurs.

I believe the rescinding of the red card not to be unwarranted although I would hope at least a yellow stays in place, and trust Son has learnt an important lesson from this. He's not going to be getting a particularly warm welcome from crowds around the country for a while I reckon.

Must add that the worst team for cynical 'take one for the team' fouls allowing them to break down and get organised after a counterattack are ManC.

James Hughes
18 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:07:11
So you get a yellow card for taking your shirt off or fouling someone and leaving them badly injured. it's a funny old game
Steve Ferns
19 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:17:23
I can understand our players and manager being manipulated in the way we have been by Spurs and the media. They were all in a state of shock and focused on our boy. How can they think of an agenda at a time like that? Our PR team could have taken the initiative and tried to re-address the balance, but the damage was already done.

But, ultimately, why do we bother? What do Everton gain from Son being banned for 2, 3, 5, or even 10 games? We don't go to Spurs until April, so what does it matter to us?

I agree with the people who think it was a red, and that Son should be banned. But the argument has gone now, it's happened. There's no point arguing any further.

Daniel A Johnson
21 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:34:39
I agree Steve its gone now and there's nothing we can do about it.

But deep down I will never forgive & forget what Son Heung-min did to one of ours.

Tommy Carter
22 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:34:50
It’s sickening that Son gave no sanctions for a disgustingly callous challenge that led directly to an horrendous injury.

I’m disappointed too by the visit to the dressing room. Yes I understand that there is a human side to all of this.

But one of our own had just been hobbled, wreakening our ranks. An asset temporarily destroyed.

I wouldn’t mind making an enemy instead, because it is us versus them and a game of winners and losers.

I hate the offence that ‘professionals’ take (because only they really know the game) at being accused of hurting another player. You often hear the pundits saying ‘you never set out to hurt another’s his livelihood’ etc etc.

Wel I don’t buy it. The world is rife with people looking to do one over on each other in win lose situations.

You only have to drive your car for a few miles and see people cutting people up, racing at lights etc.

It’s human nature. And to say that professional footballers are programmed not to do this is a complete fallacy.

He knew exactly what he was doing and was completely wreckless as to whether he raspberried Gomes.

Kevin O'Regan
23 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:44:04
If I drive down the Autobahn over here at 200 Kmh (just because it's legal) am I doing something wrong ? Not by the law, but it is a bit of a fantasy to think that I am not risking a lot driving at that speed - and I certainly cannot say that I am in full control. Yes most people get away with that kind of driving - or those kind of tackles, but it happens all the time and this time it went wrong for Son. Sure he deserves a card, maybe even a red if that is the law - but don't think for one second that those kind of tackles don't happen all the time because they do - it's just that sometimes they get it right, other times the others jump out of the way - this time André got unlucky. We are very quick to judge and condemn if this gets emotional and EFC have to pay, just like with Seamus back then, but our captain got away with a similar reckless challenge recently because it happens all the time and thank God it mostly goes well. The biggest roars around Goodison happen when our players go in for sliding tackles on CR7, Jaws and Co. - we love nothing more than a good hard tackle - but getting it right at the speed of today's game is very difficult and comes with a lof of recklessness and risks. So if what we respect are the Dogs of War, are we ready to accept that it works both ways?
I for one want football to remain a contact sport and for our team to get stuck in, but let's not savage a player who made a mistake. Let the refs or committees do their jobs - and lets move on with the game we love for all the effort put in and the emotions which come with the rollercoaster. We don't have to forgive Son, but let's not throw any stones as we are all prone to errors and mistakes - every single day.
Steve Ferns
24 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:47:32
Agreed Daniel, I hope he gets booed, and Aurier, for every touch they make whenever they play us and no matter for which team. My anger over the incident is still there, but it's better to let it go than waste time and energy. I hope the players can channel that energy and anger that they must be feeling into giving Southampton another heavy defeat.
Dick Fearon
25 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:52:35
The game needs a sin bin but only for first offences.
The 4th official could earn his keep by controlling the sinners.
Ken Kneale
26 Posted 06/11/2019 at 10:59:50
Steve - I agree in football on the field terms with your submission at 19 - there is no point. What saddens me is the yet again inept response by the club as a whole as the article outlines. We are bullied on and off the pitch these days it seems
Steve Carse
27 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:01:42
Kim (17) your post reads like a Tottenham Press Release.
Rob Dolby
28 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:18:54
The bigger picture is that the club are quite happy to be trodden all over.

Some of the decisions that have gone against us could cost us a relegation and yet the club does not stand up for itself.

We are doormats and whipping boys for the fa.

Silva will probably lose his job this season and yet can't vent his spleen about decisions that have put his head on the block.

Even when we appeal there is more chance of bringing the frivolous rule out and an extension of punishment than us overturning anything.

I am fed up of us being walked over, I want a manager with balls that can fight our corner.

I want the club to threaten banning the use of VAR for home games. I want to see us fight our corner more.

Too many people at the club have agendas other than making the club successful.

Steve Ferns
29 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:24:17
Ken, it would have taken some very cold people to have seized control of the narrative in the immediate aftermath of the Gomes incident. I can understand football people being focused on Gomes. Could we have had a PR guy leave the director's box and go down and start making things happen so we seize control? If a suit told Coleman not to go into Spurs dressing room, I don't think Coleman would have listened to the suit. I also think the other football people (players, managers and coaches) would have ignored the suit. As I said, I don't think our guys are that cold they could have dealt with the aftermath in the way some might have wanted.
Ken Kneale
30 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:41:34
Steve Spurs seems to managed the rocks and whirlpools much better than us
Daniel A Johnson
31 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:43:25
let me ask this though.

Replace Gomes with Salah and how many Liverpool players would have ran up to Son and consoled him on the pitch and then sat with him in the dressing room?

There is a good will that runs through EFC but there is also weakness and a passive meekness to almost everything.

All I can say is if that Son had done my team mate I wouldn't have even wanted to look at him never mind hug him and sit with him. Maybe I'm not a nice human being and there are better men than me?

But as others have said the club is nothing but a door mat for every team in the premier league to wipe their dirty feet on. I just want EFC and its players to grow some balls.

Steve Ferns
32 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:48:11
Ken, it wasn't their player that was badly injured. They would not have had as much emotion or shock as us. I've been in that situation where I have seen a friend with a broken leg on a football pitch. You cannot think rationally, you just do. Some run away because they can't see what's what, some want to console the injured guy, some want to fight. I cannot see how we could have handled it any different or have been prepared for it. You cannot legislate for such situations. There was nothing we could do.

Daniel I agree. And from my example above, I wonder where the fighters were. I would have expected one or two of our guys to be pulled away from Son.

Dave McDowell
33 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:48:27
Martin (OP) it gets even better, this morning I heard Pochettino on the radio complaining about the red card decision as Spurs would have won the game with ten men.

No mention of Gomes, but "Sonny" is ready to play.

Upon reflection I say "good on em" they have played it brilliantly and to heap blame on them just deflects away from our own piss poor response to not only this occurrence but many previously.

Digne was our only player on the pitch losing his rag, that alone was enough to warrant him keeping the captains armband.

Silva at the post match press interview was directly asked about the tackle, he didn't condemn it. Imagine Klopp, his head would have exploded.

The last time I remember us actually challenging "the officialdom" was the video we sent to FA (I think) showing how many times Andy Johnson had been kicked up in the air in the box and nothing given.

Big shock after that, Johnson started to be awarded pens.

Niasse, retrospective diving ban, we took that up the sphincter and most of the season I've heard Silva saying we should support the referees in the implementation of VAR.

It means nowt, we still get the 50/50 decisions given against us.

The Brighton farce, the Dele handball does anyone in our club actually have any balls. Do they actually care.

Son great player but I look forward to the dogs abuse him and Aurier get next time we play them.

Eddie Dunn
34 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:52:16
Steve, I know you now want to move on but I think the coach should have told Seamus not to go to their dressingroom and the spokeperson for the club should have been on the case straight away. The tottenham people were also shocked by the whole thing but soon all of them were on point, Alli claiming he was protecting his face (for the handball) Poch arguing for only a yellow.
Also the media all waded-in on the side of poor tearful Son.
For me, I hold it against Spurs, Aurier and Son. I will remember this and hope to boo them at my next opportunity just like we used to boo that shithouse Jimmy Case.
And Kevin@23, you may be willing to absolve people for their actions but just because players get tripped regularly without such injury doesn't absolve Son for doing it. If you endanger another player, you are culpable. If one of our lads did that tackle then he would also be a shithouse.
You can bet your bottom dollar that if one of ours had done it, the Spurs media friends would have hung him out to dry.
The only good that might come of all of this is the group may be tighter and willing to work harder for their injured mate.
Steve Ferns
35 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:53:14
Dave, this is Pochettino though. Some present him as a nice guy, but he was never that. Do you remember him as a player, most remember the Beckham incident, but that was him in a nutshell. A real snide. His team are an image of him as a player. Cold, calculated snidey bar stewards. Which is why I said at the outset, that Son is not the nice guy portrayed and he does retaliate, such as the Bournemouth red card. Others point to his lack of yellows, but how much of that is due to the angelic perception and the big smile? He gets away with a lot.
Daniel A Johnson
36 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:54:05
Agree Dave,

Silva should spitting blood on interviews so if any other 50:50 decisions go to VAR then the ref will think "shit Everton have had a few shockers lately I better give them this one or I wont hear the end of it". He had 2-3 genuine reasons to be kicking off big time but almost apologetically said nothing.

With Niasse we should have sent a legal challenge asking why our player has been the only retrospective ban when there have been 10-15 incidents for other teams since but...…….. nothing but silence.

Again passive weakness we just shut up and take it.

Sums the club up,

Steve Ferns
37 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:56:27
Eddie, do you honestly think the manager could control that? Did he even know about it? Surely the manager was on the phone getting details of Gomes? Surely some of our players were in distress, didn't Davies go off upset? Some might have held it together on the pitch, but then fell apart in the dressing room. I can only imagine chaos in there and if Coleman walks out, does the manager really need to ask him where he's going and what he's doing? He's probably focused on lots of players at the same time. As I said, I imagine chaos in that Everton dressing room.
Daniel A Johnson
38 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:57:06
Setve to quote,

"His team are an image of him as a player. Cold, calculated snidey bar stewards"

So what doe that say about passive Silva...…..and his passive team with zero fight. An almost mirror image of him.

Steve Ferns
39 Posted 06/11/2019 at 11:59:18
Daniel, who was manager when Niasse got banned for diving? Wasn't it Allardyce? There's a guy who does get on his soapbox with the press and that didn't make any difference.

Scratch that, it was Unsworth.

Daniel A Johnson
40 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:00:58
Yes Steve I agree we accepted it at the time...…….but since then evidence shows we just got made an example of big time.

Th reason being we are the meek and mild premiership no marks that can be pushed around.

Ken Kneale
41 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:01:48
Steve The human reaction in the immediate aftermath is not in issue. What is palpably lacking is the professional response of Silva and others in the Club at some point later in the day. Once again, we are sadly lacking.
Steve Ferns
42 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:02:53
I disagree Daniel, I don't think Silva is passive or has zero fight. What about Moyes who was a prickly character, yet his teams waved the white flag against the best sides.
John Boswell
43 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:03:27
Daniel @31 I am standing side by side with you on the pitch. I really can't imagine me being passive with Son the perpetrator! COYB.
Steve Ferns
44 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:05:44
Ken, later in the day? The Sunday? Silva had better things to do with his time, ie Gomes and his managerial duties. Son got sent off. Anything that happens to Son makes no difference to us, so why get on a soapbox about it when Gomes needs his support, and his players need him.
Daniel A Johnson
45 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:06:14
Silva has had plenty of opportunity to show his teeth Steve and never does,

Brighton he didn't, Spurs he didn't and remember his passive shrug and remark about Klopps OTT derby winner celebration...…...said nothing.

Ken Kneale
46 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:10:23
Steve if we define 'passive' as accepting or allowing what happens around them without active response or resistance - that seems to sum up this situation and Silva in general and sadly for us his teams
Sam Hoare
47 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:11:11
Steve, I wouldn't say that Silva has zero fight necessarily but this lack of resilience and inability to come back when losing has gone on for almost a season and a half now. I think Silva has not had much luck but such a long run has to be indicative of some failings right?
Gerard Burke
48 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:11:51
I agree with most of the points raised in the article.
Everton certainly lost the narrative and Son has escaped a fitting punishment for a reckless challenge, while Gomez faces long months of rehabilitation.
I think we are poorly led by a weak manager and fans are short changed week in and week out by a squad of players, many of who it seems to me couldn't care less. I'm a being too harsh?
Steve Ferns
49 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:12:36
Daniel, I disagree. We don't need a clown on the sideline performing antics like a deranged lunatic. What good did it do Dortmund when they were losing game after game? Said clown was standing passive on the sidelines then anyway. It's easier to do what he does when you're winning. The game's a lot easier when you're winning.

Silva is not passive and he's not soft. If you want to disagree, then fair enough. great how this is all Silva's fault when there is zero he could do about it. The court of public opinion was influenced by those on TV. Wasn't it two blues? Cahill and Saha? By the time I was on twitter after the game I was getting hammered by neutral fans for suggesting it was a red card. There was no persuading them. Minds were made up.

Our manager should manage the team, not be on TV raging like a lunatic. It doesn't help anyone. Moyes got angry all the time, what good did that do us? Mourinho could have been managing us and do everything you wanted and more, the outcome would be the same.

Daniel A Johnson
50 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:13:39
Silva or another player should have simply come out and said the red card should have stood, as the tackle resulted in horrible consequences for ANdre Gomes.
Daniel A Johnson
51 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:16:23
Steve I 100% respect your defence on SIlva and for what its worth I quite like SIlvas restrained demeanor on the touch line unlike the Ritalin kid clown Klopp.

But after the match and when interviewed he has a calculated and measured chance to defend the club put his aggrievances across. All top class managers that are sore losers do it and so should SIlva.

Nick Armitage
52 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:16:55
Looking at the rules there is no question that it's a red card. I have no idea why people are saying it's a yellow. Martin, you're bang on the money on both counts.

IFAB Laws of the Game 2019-20



–A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off:
denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)
denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent whose overall movement is towards the offender's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick (unless as outlined below)
serious foul play
–biting or spitting at someone
–violent conduct
–using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
–receiving a second caution in the same match
entering the video operation room (VOR)
–A player, substitute or substituted player who has been sent off must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area.


A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

Scott Hall
53 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:22:02
Dave @2 you've summed Everton's ethos and culture up perfectly there. If Nil Satis Nisi Optimum was translated into the actual truth, then you've captured it beautifully.

We are a nicey nice club with zero ambition and zero aggression.

The Son tackle and Gomes injury took the headlines, and it covered up the shambolic VAR decision when Dele Alli handled in the box, his hand held up high above his head, the ball striking it clearly from every camera angle. Will Everton kick off about that? No. Will Everton demand answers from the FA after two shockingly inconsistent decisions have both gone against us? No. We'll just take our smacked bottom like a good little Everton and stay quiet.

It infuriates me.

Danny Broderick
54 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:34:41
Nick (52),

There was no excessive force or brutality.

Steve Ferns
55 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:36:13
Roy Keane was a right snidey bastard. No one can disagree with that. When Neil Taylor broke Seamus Coleman's leg, Neil taylor said the following:

"In my mind, I wanted to see him [Coleman] and apologise, but I remember Roy Keane came out, and he was great with me. He said, 'Listen, I’m not someone who can lecture you on tackles, with the history of my career. It’s football, it’s what happens, you have to take what comes with it now and answer all the questions. The only consolation I give you is that Seamus is a player that gets fouled all the time'."

Martin O'Neill is a fiery character himself. He did not condemn Taylor either. Was he being called passive? This is all just another stick to beat Silva with for ridiculous reasons.

The reaction is the norm. Our concern is our player. We don't care what happens to Son. It should have been a red card. He should be banned. He isn't. But it has no effect on us. So what does it matter? If one of the games he was banned for was against us, then it's a different story, but that's not the rules. Our concern should now be Gomes and him getting back to full fitness as quickly as possible.

But his recovery is long, arduous and lonely. I expect this will not be the last operation he has on the ankle, and the club are taking an overly optimistic view, in order to boost Gomes' spirits. Gomes needs to be surrounded by complete positivity, and no one should be talking about anything but best case scenarios. The reality is there is always complications with ankles, and most players need 3 or 4 surgeries to fix serious breaks. Didn't someone on here say they had a similar injury and had 8 surgeries and never regained full range of movement?

Daniel A Johnson
56 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:39:15
Not just the Son incident in isolation Steve, but what about everything else Silva contests nothing post match.
Ken Kneale
58 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:48:59
Steve - you correctly say 'Our concern is our player' By extension we all care about the club. it is the pitiful attitude we adopt and lack of fortitude to dire circumstances that this article is about and sadly that does include the manager along with many many others. I am certainly not as you suggest shaming Silva on this one - there is more than sufficient evidence on the playing side if I wished to denigrate the man but he is part of an overall mismanagement of the situation here
Brian Harrison
59 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:49:18
I think the serious injury to Gomes was really upsetting for all concerned, and I cant agree that Everton allowed Spurs to grab the narrative. Silva behaved in exactly the right way, he said when interviewed he didnt want to talk about the incident which was for me correct. What was to be gained by him apportioning blame, the player was sent off and whether Silva had made more of the incident or not Spurs would still have appealed.

The fact that the sending off has been overturned can be argued about, and I am sure that if you ask people who don't support Everton or Spurs they would be split down the middle as to whether it should have been rescinded.

Steve Ferns
61 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:53:14
Daniel, I don't like the whole Mourinho attitude of contesting everything. I think it costs them more than it gains them, particularly with the touchline bans.

Brian, I was on twitter after the game, and I did not see one neutral agree with me that it was a red card. The phone in on Talkshite (5 Live had the F1 on) concluded that it was a yellow, with only one blue saying it was a red. Adrian Loudmouth took our side, but he is Mr Contrary, and there was at least two Blues who said it was a yellow. I think split down the middle is a stretch. I think the public at large think it was a yellow by an overwhelming majority.

Daniel A Johnson
62 Posted 06/11/2019 at 12:56:29

Well everything is alright in the world then...……..poor old Son

Danny Broderick
63 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:03:55
As gutted as we all are for Gomes, and whether you think it was a yellow or red, we have to move on like Steve Ferns said. There’s nothing to be gained for Everton now that the game is over. Him being suspended when Spurs face other teams does nothing for us anyway.

All we need to do now is help Gomes with his recovery, and focus on Southampton away...

John Keating
64 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:07:14
if you are saying that Son's tackle was a red card then I suggest you prepare yourself for every team, including our very own, to play with 10 men or less, every game.

We see loads of similar tackles every week.

Let's watch the Southampton game and see if there any similar tackles and see how many players get sent off.

As mentioned in a previous thread. Had Son made that tackle and Gomes' studs not caught in the turf but hurt his knee and carried on and scans after the game shown he'd be out for the next 6 weeks, would Son have been given a retrospective red card ?

Brian Harrison
65 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:14:44
I think this game would be far better if more managers adopted Brian Cloughs attitude regarding decisions, never once did Clough blame the decision of a referee. And they had some bad decisions given against them, even the year they got relegated he didnt question a refs decision.

Nowadays blaming poor decisions is most managers get out of jail card, its the first thing they mention when interviewed. Very rarely do you hear a manager being interviewed after the game blame his own inefficiencies. Far to easy to appease his own fans by blaming referees decisions, that way he shifts the blame from his shoulders.

I have as many issues with refs as everybody else, and even with VAR which was brought in to try and eradicate these mistakes it hasnt helped at all. But seems these days the blame culture that seems to have invaded all walks of life is to frequently used as an excuse.

Jamie Crowley
66 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:22:47
Martin -

This article is superbly written, and I agree with the overall premise.

I've read on these pages that our Club is "too nice" in the past. I simply discounted those comments, thinking whomever wrote them were a bit over the top.

In this instance, Everton were entirely too nice. We allowed Spurs to drive the narrative, and we really said and did nothing, other than release an update on Gomes' surgery.

There are so many reasons Everton's approach and lack of leadership and action are not acceptable in this instance. If I get into it too deep, the post will run on forever, so, buzzwords: lack of leadership, not protecting player, not protecting their interests, pacifist approach to justice, spineless, cowardice, etc.

I've really never been overly critical of the Board or Everton hierarchy. But they have failed miserably in how they've handled this situation.

Great article Martin. Someone had to say it, and you've done so marvelously.

Dave McDowell
67 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:22:58
On the live forum on Sunday after the travesties of the tackle, the dive by Son, the denied pen on Richarlison etc. I urged people to email their disgust to the Premier League (for no benefit other than venting my frustration).

However I had previously sent them an email after the Brighton shambolic decision. I sent another email on Sunday plus another one when the red card was over turned yesterday.

By the way you can grade them, my Brighton email was strong, borderline abusive, on Sunday, it got stronger and yesterday more-so.

No swearing but naming Mason, Taylor (VAR) idiots, Riley as well, should be sacked, the PL management either corrupt or morons - so now you have my tone & drift.

I have just received (to be fair an unexpected) reply to my Brighton email, (don't think they will respond to my two subsequent missives).

Actually had I received the reply below before Sunday my further emails would have been even more abusive when I see the use of the phrases "high bar" and how its content seems to 100% contradict actual recent decisions.

Thought it might be of interest:


Thanks for your email

We understand there are a range of views on VAR and we appreciate you taking the time to contact us.

The use of VAR in the Premier League is guided by the IFAB protocol, which can be viewed in full at the link below:

Match officials sometimes make mistakes which can impact the outcome of a match. While VAR will not achieve 100 per cent accuracy, it has been introduced to help lead to more correct, and fairer, judgements. It’s important to note that its use was also unanimously agreed by our Clubs.
The VAR is constantly monitoring the match but is only used for clear and obvious errors, or serious missed incidents, in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity.

To help maintain the pace and intensity of matches there is a high-bar for VARs to intervene in subjective decisions. No two incidents are the same, and so each is subject to its own unique interpretations by both the on-field match officials and the VAR. The high-bar philosophy is designed to ensure VARs will intervene only if, in their judgement, a clear and obvious error has been made. In all cases, the final decision will always be taken by the on-field referee.

Factual decisions such as offsides are not subject to the clear and obvious test. If the VAR sees an error has been made in such a situation they will intervene, regardless of how marginal the decision is.

You can read a great deal more on use of VAR in the Premier League at the link below:

We understand the need to ensure supporters in stadiums are aware of VAR interventions and their outcome. The referee will point to their ear to indicate a review is in place, and gesture with a ‘TV signal’ when the process is completed, before communicating the final decision. Premier League graphics are displayed on big screens and information can also be relayed over PA systems. If VAR has been involved in changing a decision made by the on-field referee, then the Club can also show a definitive video clip to help explain what has happened.

VAR was introduced following rigorous testing. It is a significant innovation and so naturally we will continue to review all aspects of its use and to consult with match and club officials, players and supporters. Analysis will help us to understand its effectiveness and to evaluate any potential changes. We cannot comment on specific incidents, but please be assured that we do share all supporter feedback with our Football Relations team and update our Executive. We will also be discussing VAR regularly with our Clubs over the course of the season to understand their views and to help shape any further developments Thanks for taking the time to contact us, and I hope this helps to explain our position.

Kind regards

Tony J Williams
68 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:24:17
Never a red card and Atkinson had the yellow in his hand to give to Son but changed it because of the angle of Gomes's ankle.

Pointless for Silva to come out foaming at the mouth, as it will change nothing.

Take a leaf out of the Moyes book and send a copy of all the atrocious decisions that have gone against us with VAR, penalty decisions etc, make it public that we've done it and request a response from the FA.

Happened after Wenger called Johnson a diver and lo and behold a few games later we get a pen.

Never a red and it's irrelevant now, as we got the benefit of the red. Son went off and they were down to 10 men and we equalised.

2/3 or even a 10 match ban benefits no-one else but the teams Spuds face, not us.

Move on.

Andrew James
69 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:26:44

What MP/Beckham incident?

I remember he was left in the wake of Michael Owen in the Argentina match in 1998 before the latter scored that goal if that's the game you mean?

I'm not defending MP and his players. They have a history of ill discipline and cheating which, because two of the culprits are English, the media give a free pass.

Although I did laugh when someone above said the winners get to set the agenda. Spurs haven't won anything recently, the last time I checked...

My main fear other than for Andre is not about Everton being too nice. It is that this will usher back one holding midfielder who, somehow, manages to get into the side by hook or by crook and it never bodes well.

Daniel A Johnson
70 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:27:16
Typical Everton hey Tony Williams

Lets just sit and take it and move on, good little Everton.

Jamie Crowley
71 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:28:11
I hate to say this, but it keeps springing to my mind.

I swear the people saying, "this type of tackle happens all the time", and "it's not a red card", etc.

Were they alive prior to WWII, they would have voted for and supported Neville Chamberlin.

"Nothing to see here." [wasn't that bad of a tackle, no intended harm]

"If you punish Germany for invading Poland, you'll need to punish half the world. Countries invade one another all the time." [those types of tackles happen all the time]

"Putting up a fight and going to war could prove challenging. Best not to fight back." [Everton's approach post-event, and everyone accepting the tackle wasn't heinous with a tragic outcome]

Jay Wood

72 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:50:48
Normally after a game I like to comment and exchange thoughts about the performance and the result on TW.

On Sunday I posted but one comment and no more and didn't return to TW until the following day:

"Grateful for the equaliser, but a horrible game in so many aspects. No appetite to comment further."

Primarily this was due to the sickening injury to Andre Gomes. It's about 40 years on now, but whilst playing park football a team mate and dear friend suffered a compound fracture. Players from both teams and spectators reacted in the same way as players from both teams and nearby spectators reacted at Goodison on Sunday.

NOTHING prepares you to witness at close quarters such an horrendous injury. You cannot fake your reaction as some have suggested Son did to gain leniency from the referee.

Each and every time I see such an injury in any game - be it an Everton player or not - the psychological scar of what I witnessed 40 years ago immediately resurfaces. I felt it when Seamus broke his leg. When James McCarthy did likewise. It returned again on Sunday.

Each time I was overwhelmed by nausea and dizziness. I have never - and never will - sought out or looked at a replay of any of those incidents.

It's the prime reason why I haven't entered into the discussion of how culpable Son was and whether his red card was merited or should have been overturned as it has been. I simply haven't looked at a frame-by-frame replay of the incident to determine who did what when, or how and when exactly Andre broke his ankle.

I understand the outrage and sense of injustice. I understand that Andre's injury and long term loss to the team compounds the sense of injustice many feel about the poor referring and the VAR decisions that went against us in the game.

What I don't understand is the opening post using all of the above AND the good gestures by our players, in particular that of our skipper who himself knows only too well the impact of such an injury, to berate the club for 'poor PR' and allowing Spurs to 'control the dialogue'.

To me, it is hugely ironic that Martin's opening post closes with the words: "The club really needs to get its priorities right."

Well excuse me, but I rather took a lot of pride in how the Everton players reacted in-match and post-match. The non-playing Seamus on the touchline immediately saw the severity of the injury and frantically called for the medical staff. Any number of Everton - AND Spurs players - covered their faces, turned away, stood in shock. In the background, spectators did likewise.

Cenk Tosun in particularly was huge, cradling Andre's head in his hands, talking to him, in the same way as the teenage John Stones stood out and did the same when Bryan Oviedo broke his leg at Stevenage.

Seamus is being criticised for comforting Son onfield and going into the changing room again post-match. I consider that indicts Seamus' accusers rather than the player, that he is condemned for displaying compassion and basic human decency. Or do his accusers think he wasn't concerned for Andre at all and expended all his sympathy on Son and Son alone?

As someone pointed out on another thread, there was a game last season when a player came flying into Baines down the left flank in a seriously dangerous challenge. Seamus charged across the width of the field to grab the offending player and lay down the law. He knew exactly what he saw and just how dangerous is potentially was for Leighton. If memory serves me right, this was close to half time and Seamus continued to give the opposing player grief as they left the pitch.

I think it's reasonable to assume Seamus would NOT have so readily excused Son or empathized with him as he did if he thought for one second there was malicious intent in what the Spurs player did.

In conclusion, I personally don't give a flying feck on whether Everton 'controlled the dialogue' or 'won the PR war' with Spurs since Sunday.

Of much deeper concern to me, understandably forgotten and overlooked due to the inevitable debate about the injury, the officiating and the VAR calls, is that this was yet another poor performance by Everton and now extends to 22 PL games under Silva in which we have conceded the first goal and failed to recover to win.

It hides that the win v WHU has not proven to be a 'turning point' as some boldly claimed at the time. It hides that we have taken just 4 points from a possible 21 in our last 7 games (5 defeats) against largely modest opposition. It hides that there has been no discernible improvement in results or performances this season, only regression.

It was already proving a challenge for Silva. Both long-term and niggling short-term injuries are now threatening to seriously deplete our squad in key areas.

If things were already challenging for Silva with a full squad to pick from, it's going to be even more challenging for him now. Conversely, it may force his hand to promote fringe players, or young players from the U-23s, to the first team.

It often happens that by accident, rather than design, a struggling manager forced into changes gets lucky and the team's fortunes changes.

Here's hoping that may happen now for Silva and the team.

Steve Brown
73 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:52:03
Comment on the injury by a musculoskeletal physiology professor in the Echo:

"Existing evidence is divided on the outcome and post-surgical recovery for ankle fracture-dislocations. Some large studies of ankle fracture-dislocations have reported a good to excellent outcome in 82% of patients during a 2 to 6 years follow-up period.

"While ankle fractures show a significant improvement in function in 6 months to 1 year following surgery, the combined fracture-dislocation (particularly if it is an open injury) considerably delays the full functional recovery (potentially up to 24 months).

24 MONTHS potentially to full recovery. Is Gomes going to "move on?" We have a debate about the passivity of Silva and the club, but many of the fans are the same. Son put in a challenge to get his own back on Gomes and may have destroyed the career of one of our players. Then we have our fans on TW threads rationalising away the tackle and the rescinding of the red card. No wonder we are regarded as an easy target by the Permier League and patronised by the media.

Everton, nice passive club and fans - if we need to make an example of someone for diving, we have Niasse. If we want to prove VAR can overturn a penalty decision, we have Keane. If we don't want to penalise Champions League club too harshly, we forgive Son.

People talk about the 1984-85 team quite rightly as one of our greatest ever. On another thread, someone says that the current squad should be locked in a room and forced to watch the film. When Brian Marwood ended Inchy's season with a disgusting tackle in that season, Peter Reid ended his. Show that clip to the team and the likes of Tony J Williams. Stop being so reasonable and nice and we might actually stop getting treated like fools and earn some respect.

Rant over.

Tony Abrahams
74 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:54:03
Dave@33, did Poschetino really say that? I read a tweet from Graeme Roberts saying this but if the Tottenham manager has said this then Marco Silva should definitely respond.

He should agree with the Spurs manager, and tell him to ask the league can we play those minutes again with equal numbers on the pitch, as long as the snide bastard accepts that first Everton must take the two penalties that were wrongly turned down.

Steve Brown
75 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:57:40
Tony @ 74, he did say that. So let's roll on the ground so he can can tickle our belly.
John Keating
76 Posted 06/11/2019 at 13:57:51
apart from the fact I don't think comparing the game to the second world war ( which by the way this country paid quite a high price and we will all be thinking of especially in a few days time ) a bit daft.

The only thing I would comment on was that these tackles do indeed happen all the time.
Obviously not all with those consequences but all have the potential to cause serious injury.

Now if the referees deal with every single case the same and send off - as per Nicks train of thought - every culprit of a similar tackle then fair enough, however, as mentioned I doubt any game, including ours will finish up 11 a side.

We can argue all day, and nobody is more pissed off then me, but the fact remains. Similar tackles do indeed happen most games.
Unlike the Second World War, nobody has yet died.

Steve Ferns
77 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:01:11
Good post Jay.
Tony Abrahams
78 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:04:33
Okay Steve.
Dave McDowell
79 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:06:53
Tony (74):

5Live this morning, sport bulletin, 5am, I was disgusted.

Pochettino: “I was confident,” he said. “We were all confused after the game, I was talking with different people and the referee too.

“There was confusion, but now it is completely fair that in the end he is not going to be suspended.

“But we cannot change the result, playing with 10 men opened the game for them and we ended losing the two points.

“But the good news is Sonny is going to be available.”

Eddie Dunn
80 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:09:16
Steve, Silva is a manager, he can multitask -they have to. Imagine if the thing had occurred at Anfield. Salah chopped down by Son. Do you think Hedo would be tapping on the Spur's door t see if Son was okay? No chance. Even if he wanted to he would check it with the puppetmaster her Klopp.
Managers manage, in a crisis especially. Get you lads in the changies, get the updates, then fight your corner. Marco and the others (Duncan et al) can decide whether Seamus can give him a cuddle. As for Silva, I'm with you in that he shows plenty of pssion for me but isn't hysterical like the toothy windmill.
Contrary to what some say here, he is often up off his seat calling to his players.
Let's hope this galvanises the squad for the battles ahead.
Tony Abrahams
81 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:14:18
I didn’t think it was a red card, but this just shows you why football and life are so interwoven because it’s imperative that you look after your own, Dave.

Silva can’t keep quiet now surely, Poscetino has just gave him the perfect ball to be hit out the ground for a six?

Steve Ferns
82 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:20:21
Eddie, the manager's role is too big to multitask so they brought in a Director of Football, splitting the job into two. Which raises the point about Brands. He always seems to be at the game, surely he was there. Surely, he was the one to set the agenda, if indeed any needed setting?

Although I'm inclined to agree with what Jay Wood said, and having seen one of my friends break his leg in a match, I would say that no one is thinking. You're in shock and on auto-pilot.

Tony, shouldn't we have all the motivation we need for Southampton. "Doing it for Andre", "doing it for Marco", "personal pride", etc, etc. We just need to focus on ourselves, get ourselves prepared and ready for Saints and play our best game, because if we play our best game, injuries or not, we beat these.

Don Alexander
83 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:23:49
Well said Jay Wood.
Jamie Crowley
84 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:24:15
John -

My reference you're taking out of context entirely.

It's the link of pacifism and acceptance of wrong-doing between the mindset of Chamberlin, and those who feel it's not worth the fight to challenge the overruling / protestations of the red card / FA.

It's valid, and only offensive if you have the constitution of a Neville Chamberlin fanboy.

I didn't compare the atrocities of war - death, injury, dismemberment, destruction - to anything having to do with this instance. Only a nutter and a fool would.

It's the pacifist mindset link - that and that only - to which I bring up Neville Chamberlin and the similarities of those people not wanting to challenge a single thing about this decision and tackle. Pacifism, lack of fight, failure to protect their own.

Not the atrocities of war. Good Lord, man. You can reference characters and events within and surrounding the era, without a direct comparison to the fallout from war itself. Surely you're intelligent enough to recognize that, and see the difference?

Pacifism. That's where the link starts and ends.

Kieran Kinsella
85 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:33:57
To me the most mysterious thing is not "was it a red card?" but rather "why does no one seem to know?"

Atkinson pulled a yellow then after a delay a red. Presumbaly either because a)the VAR told him it was a red. or b)he saw how serious it was and decided on a red.
After the game the PL issued a statement saying it was the correct call. Now it was apparently wrong.
So, based on the aforementioned I have to ask. Why have VAR over ruling refs if a second set of VAR people (third adjudicators in all) can over rule them after the game? Why not then add a fourth and a fifth set of panelists to rule and re-rule?
If Atkinson changed his mind because of the extent of the injury, if that shouldn't be part of the equation then why doesn't an EPL ref know the rules?

Steve Ferns
86 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:36:40
Jamie, why bring Neville Chamberlain into this? What do you actually know about him? Current historians are favourable to him, and point to the evidence that was classified until well after the war that showed that Chamberlain's reluctance to enter into war with Germany was due to the state of Britain's capabilities at the time and that we needed to properly prepare. I think it's wrong of an American to imply a British Prime Minister was a coward, and I also think your information might be out of date and be from all that crap that was designed to enhance Churchill's reputation, as one of the leading books on the matter was "the Gathering Storm" written by Churchill himself.
Derek Thomas
87 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:37:39
Nice guys finish last, fear not lads we're not last, we're 17th and On Our WAY UP.

Is laughing stock a bit harsh or are we just a soft touch just a soft touch? phew, was worried a bit there for a minute.

Tony Abrahams
88 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:40:36
Yes Steve, but we shouldn’t refuse an invitation to dig-out Mason, Atkinson, Taylor and VAR in general, and also make the Spurs manager realise that he should have a lot more respect for Everton, and Gomes and a show bit more tact for himself?
Jer Kiernan
89 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:43:03
VAR will do what SKY tell it to do, in same way that Refs will/do give the calls that will cost them least grief, ,in todays game any calls given against the "Top" clubs are scrutinised the refs vilified by Carra and the boys, ,give it against Palace /Bournemouth, ,no problem lets move on

Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp ALL have in common the tactic of using both media and sideline antics to bully officials anybody who thinks this doesnt effect the refs calls are living in la-la land

Sean Dyche has taken it upon himself to "try" to discuss the cancer of diving in the game and he is being fobbed off as doesnt fit the agenda and beside how else will Mane ,Salah be able to instigate a late pen when needed if not for the good old dive

For the refs they don't want to be watching the "wrong" calls they have made been put under microscope and made to look foolish, Self preservation is a most base human instinct

The point of VAR is it puts SKY/BT Jamie (spit in your daughters face) Carragher now in control of the outcome of games - Simple

You can even see it on a weekly Basis , Klopp raises a complaint about a VAR call one week ,,next week we ALL agree is not a free

Jamie Crowley
90 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:46:33
Steve -

I'm sure there's plenty of counter-arguments and contrarian works defending Chamberlain.

As I'm sure there's many pieces written on how the Americans were too slow, failing to act too late, sitting within their borders as an isolationist stance was the thinking of the day.

John Keating
91 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:47:21
it's not exactly pacifism.

We've all been supporting this Club through thick and thin forever

Some of us fought tooth and nail against the disgrace of Kirkby. Were part of those who marched and were slagged by fellow Blues and accused of Kopite behaviour trying to get rid of Kenwright and his mob.
Probably a lot of those supporters who accused us of Kopite behaviour are those saying we should be more like the RS and not accept our present situation !

It wasn't a red card, simple as that.
However much we might want it to be red unfortunately it wasn't

They made it worse by changing the yellow to red at the time and giving that daft excuse why they decided it was a red.

After a couple of days when things had calmed down a bit, the red was appealed and the appeal upheld.

We are all totally pissed off with everything that happened on Sunday but of everything, unfortunately, the red card was the easiest one to sort out.
Accepting that isn't pacifism it was just the way it is and has always been.

The biggest travesty is that all this shit has deflected issues like the shite performance of team and manager

Steve Ferns
92 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:47:24
Sorry Tony, I don't follow your thinking here. What would we hope to achieve and who would do this, and at what potential cost? Surely, we should concentrate on winning the next game.
Kieran Kinsella
93 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:47:43
As far as Neville Chamberlain goes, at that point Germany had only invaded part of Czechoslovakia which was arbitrarily created by Woodrow Wilson and the League of Nations. Why should it fall to England to start a preemptive war whilst rebuilding after ww1? Obviously Nev knew he’d have to deck Germany at some point but nothing stopped Roosevelt, Stalin or anyone else jumping in and kicking off proceedings
Steve Ferns
94 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:53:31
First time I've ever defended a Tory Prime Minister, I should go sit on the naughty step.
Tony Abrahams
95 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:54:26
Jamie, have you considered that if an Everton player makes the same tackle Son, did next week resulting in a Southampton player getting a very serious injury, that some of us would be able to defend the Everton player, because they genuinely never thought it was a red card?

I think football has already gone too soft, with the cheats and the divers already ruining our sport, and as bad and unfortunate as this was for Gomes, then the next step is only going to take us to a game without contact imo.

Think about it? Everton never got a penalty on Sunday because they said Mina had put Deli-Ali under pressure, from a fuckin corner kick of all things, with the blind definitely leading the stupid, and I hope Silva definitely responds to what Pochettino has had to say because of this.

Jamie Crowley
96 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:54:30
John -

You say:
It wasn't a red card, simple as that.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

There's a thread going on right now congratulating Lyndon and Michael on 25 years of TW.

I'd tell you now, your submissions, my responses, Steve Ferns injections, all of the debate around this Gomes injury, much of it stated with passion and yes, some controversy, is why TW is heroine for me. This is the aspect of TW I adore - the differing opinions and viewpoints of all matters between posters / members. In particular, how I view something, and how that is viewed by folks from a different country, with a similar but unique and different culture.

I learn from it. I take it all on board.

Jay Wood

97 Posted 06/11/2019 at 14:58:35
Sorry Jamie Crowley, but your defence @ 84 of your post @ 71 is as nonsensical as your original linkage of the Son-Gomes situation to a pivotal moment in world history.

Evoking the name of Neville Chamberlin and assumed pacificism as you describe it into a footy debate is putting the jackboot, as it were, on the other foot when people use the Reductio ad Hitlerum ad hominem argument (playing the Hitler card, if you like) as a means to undermine the position of another by effectively calling them a Nazi who supports all the evils that are associated with that movement.

Try maintaining a bit of perspective, Jamie.

Jer Kiernan
98 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:04:09
LMAO the auld "nazi" card wins the arguement every time :)

Jamie Crowley
99 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:06:40
Jay -

effectively calling them a Nazi who supports all the evils that are associated with that movement.

No. You're taking a step that's too far. You're inferring and making an assumption.

Again, the pacifist link. That's it.

You're entitled to your opinion, albeit out of place and misguided.

My perspective is just fine, for me, thank you.

Tony Abrahams
100 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:08:32
It’s only words Steve, but if Silva came out and told Pochettino that if he thought Spurs would have won with eleven men, then he thinks his own team would have won if they’d been given two nailed on penalties.

Surely it would be telling Posh to pipe-down and show some respect to a football team, who showed some proper humanity to his player last Sunday, (because I’m not sure every other team would have reacted like Everton?) and also to tell these refs, that it’s about time they stopped cheating his own team, because they are getting away with murder at the minute.

He can say what he wants to his own players Steve, but sometimes it’s about showing the outside world that we’ve had enough of the bullshit, and who knows? It might even lead to a few of his own players suddenly developing a bit more bollocks on the pitch? (No puns)

John Pierce
101 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:11:07
Bottom line. 4/24 points. VAR and a throughly awful game Sunday has distracted from we’re we are.

With teams 18th & 19th to play next the reality needs to be focused on that. The events of Sunday and the article above have merit so does the discussion on VAR. They are a distraction.

We are 17th lads. A manger drowning, a team rudderless, a director of football who hasn’t uttered a word on our position. An owner who now seems paralyzed to act following his previous decisions.

This is were the club is failing, not waging a phoney PR war or berating journalists for trashing our best player.

We’ve been sat in the bottom half nay bottom six for weeks. It stinks down in the basement.

Bill Gall
102 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:11:36
The tackle was not a red card but the consequences were, as someone else has mentioned, you push someone off the sidewalk and he sprains his ankle it is not a major accident, but if you push someone of the sidewalk and a car hits him causing major injuries this becomes a major accident.

Whatever the intent was, Son did not want Gomes to get a serious injury, but the action caused a major injury, and that was not beyond the realm of a possibility that it could have been a career ending injury.

As people are saying Son is not that type of player (whatever that means ) he deliberately tackled Gomes and the consequences of the tackle was what the referee gave the red card for and it should have been upheld.

This decision along with VAR and the influence of Skye is the reason supporters are being dissatisfied with the modern game, with some no longer supporting it.

Jer Kiernan
103 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:11:38
To sum up the Passive / Aggressive arguement, , In my experience "The Squeaky wheel gets all the oil", ,you will see it everywhere in life right from the Creche to the Work Place to World politics

Dont complain you get nothing is what I say

Also i agree we need to move on , there will be plenty of time to ponder VAR, injuries, passivity when we are in the Championship

Tony Abrahams
104 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:19:16
That’s why I like you Jamie, even though I’ve never met you mate, because you might be a bit off the wall at times (that’s another reason to like you) but you definitely know what you are saying, and that’s why I agree with your perspective!

Ps just because you are in tune with your perspective, doesn’t mean you are not fucking nuts, I just need to get off T/W, and watch Mac-Murphy taking them all out to sea!!

Jay Wood

105 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:20:02
Read what I said carefully, Jamie.

I haven't accused you AT ALL of playing the Nazi card.

I quite clearly state that YOUR evocation and introduction of Neville Chamberlin and his assumed pacifism into the debate is, in effect, the polar opposite of playing the Hitler card and all the negative associations with Nazism.

The heavy implication of your words in post 71 is that Everton as a club and any supporter who takes even a moderately balanced view to the claims of the opening post are yellow-backed, white-flag-waving surrender monkeys.

It's not me offering a 'misplaced and misguided opinion' or lacking perspective in my posts in this thread, Jamie.

Rob Dolby
106 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:20:24
Jer - I love that analogy.

We need more squeaky wheels on the field, on the training ground, in the dug out, in the offices, in the boardrooms and on the terraces.

Staying passive is an invitation to get continually Shat on.

Tony Abrahams
107 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:23:37
I think you make the most sense over this little discussion Jer, until you mention the championship!
Jer Kiernan
108 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:29:26
Probably a bit alarmist I will agree but with VAR seemingly intent on doing us and 2 of our only performing players crocked a manager without a plan and a general improvement of the usual suspects for relegation this season ( Palace,Bournemouth, Newcastle etc) , ,say we loose the next 2 games badly ??? then would you consider ? If so is closer than you think !!!
Bill Gall
109 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:30:42
John I am afraid the only distraction we have is a board with its head in the sand. The problem is they, or mostly the owner, do not want to admit they made a mistake, that endid up fighting with Watford and ignoring Silva's record in his time in the premier.
1 team relegated (Hull) and Watford with a record of 3 pts from a possible 30 before he was fired.

I hope supporters are not going on Leicesters game against Southampton as yardstick for us this weekend as I watched that game and it was pouring with rain with a gusty wind and after Leicester went 1 up Southampton had a man sent off, a goal down and this plus the weather just knocked the fight out of Southampton players

Kieran Kinsella
110 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:38:51

I suspect if Silva says anything in response that he will be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. That apart, I'd rather the joker focus on coaching the team as they need his full attention

Trevor Peers
111 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:43:30
Jer #108.

I've made plenty of noise this season that we might end up in a relegation scrap if something doesn't change soon.

The next 6 games will give us the answers I think, then if Moshiri is determined to leave Silva in charge for the whole season come what may, I think as many others do, the outcome will of been self inflicted.

Tony Abrahams
112 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:48:07
I believe nothing is impossible Jer, especially because I don’t believe football is like a tap and you can just turn it on sometimes which definitely seems to be the case with us at the minute.

I spoke to me dar, he was critical of Everton on Sunday, and although I understood his point of view, I thought that was the best defensive shape we had played with all season, and felt we would have won the game if Iwobi, hadn’t helped to give away that stupid goal.

His argument was that Spurs were not really attacking, but that was the only positive thing I took from Sunday, and the next couple of games will show me if I’m right or if I was wrong.

I know goals win games, but clean sheets are so important especially when you are at the wrong end of the league, but I do worry about the fragility of some of our players, and that’s why I hope Silva speaks up.

Jer Kiernan
113 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:49:55
@Trev 111
I am probably still in that stage of denial "there is at least 3 worse teams then us" which I believe there are, ,however I also believe we are a better team then Sheff Utd, Bmouth, Brighton etc etc

Also is just the way other factors seem to be pilling up to make as bad a season as Koeman/Allardyce, As you say we will know by Xmas

Either way Silva is not the man to lead us to BMD that destiny I believe lies with Eddie Howe but let us see


I agree we were very much in the game against Spurs but dont forget they are having an awful season and no kane and we are at home ,,at present for me the only team we are bettter than is Watford for what thats worth

Somebody made a great point about Silva on the forum that not only is he a poor manager but even worse an unlucky one ,,a lethal mix

Tony Abrahams
115 Posted 06/11/2019 at 15:53:28
Understood Kieran, but what’s a little fine to our very rich manager if it helps unite the squad, and creates a little bit of an “us and them” attitude.

I know it won’t unite the crowd though because too many people have already made up their minds on Marco Silva, and I don’t think anything he does or says will help pull everyone together, I only have to read T/W to realise this.

Alan Smith
117 Posted 06/11/2019 at 16:07:40
Only read the first ten or so comments up to:

"non of our recent managers including Moyes would have done anything about this" too soft, bad PR etc...

Well thats not entirely true is it?

One man was as cynical as all the top guys. One man would have practiced and trained his players on how to get the best out of VAR.

One man would have twisted the Richarlison narrative in our favour rather than let mr Atkinson play the tough guy. They way klopp or sollksjaer would never allow Atkinson to do it if it was mane or rashford who was getting kicked everywhere.

And you all know which fat c**t it was. The fat c**t you all chased.

When given are current stature he was exactly the type of c**t we need. And he wouldn't have needed a smart arse DoF on loads of money to waste £100's of millions on promise.

And is the football any better? Well I know one thing. We'd be conceding less, getting more decissions and probably have a goalscorer up front!

Anyway just saying. I wouldn't want Silva getting any of the blame this season after the hand he's been dealt but, there is lot he can learn from the gravey swigger.

There's even more our fans could learn as well imho. No matter who takes over our great club, even if its Tony pulis, I think they all deserve to be judged on their performance from day one here, with a clean slate. Not by what the blag media painted them to be. And they all need to be judged with some perspective, evidence based reasoning rather than clichéd preconceived notions and bandwagon theories.

i.e. the debacle the fat one inheritted.
The shambles of a window and the injury crisis for silva.

Maybe the board don't have a great PR team in place? But were was brands? Surely that incident made him run downstairs to discuss matters with our coaching staff pre presser's?

I believe the board are ultimately responsible for the lack of professionalism, small club mentality and soft arsed nature.

Michael Kenrick
118 Posted 06/11/2019 at 16:33:18
Wow, Jamie, what an asinine post at #71. I am truly astounded. Your defence of it at #84 only serves to compound your error.

Glad to see a number of posters have attempted to put you straight. Sad to see no hint of a retraction.

I'll help you: step back and admit that invoking 'Pacifism' – and specifically your characterization of Neville Chamberlain – was well off-base and completely inappropriate to the discussion.

Mark Guglielmo
119 Posted 06/11/2019 at 16:38:35
Re: relegation scrap for those who are interested

Everton: current form projects us to 38 pts
Southampton: current form projects them to 28 pts
Norwich: current form projects them to 24 pts
Watford: current form projects them to 15, yes 15, pts

One may not like the excuse that we're likely safe because the table is awful this year, but it's still a fact. Unless of course you're so pessimistic that you believe the bottom 3 teams will greatly improve while we get somehow worse.

Who knows amongst this lot how much weight is put on stats, but Everton's indicate that we should be around 7th-8th, which points to a number of things. Poor clinical finishing is an obvious one, but (un)luck certainly comes into play. I can't even remember all the posts or bars we've hit, but a simple law of averages would mean at least a couple of them would bounce into the goal! We're talking a matter of inches here.

Jamie Crowley
120 Posted 06/11/2019 at 16:42:51
Michael -

The analogy and link of Evertons reluctance to take a strong stance in relation to Neville Chamberlain was a poor one, and a reach.

I apologize for any offense.

When a moderator tells me I’m out of line, I will always listen.

Apologies for any offense.

Andrew Keatley
121 Posted 06/11/2019 at 16:52:38
Jamie (120) - Respect to you for that. Nice one.
Eddie Dunn
122 Posted 06/11/2019 at 16:57:13
Jamie, Michael is correct but I like the general thrust of what you have to say. You would be the sort of bloke I would want next to me in the trenches.
Kieran Kinsella
123 Posted 06/11/2019 at 17:16:24

If he turns it around I’m sure the fans will get on board. At this point, I think he’s an unproven joker but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. It would be much easier to build on what we have versus ripping it up and starting over. If we beat Soton it’s a step in the right direction.

Mick Davies
124 Posted 06/11/2019 at 17:24:23
Don't know if anyone else noticed this, but Son had his head in his hands bent over looking totally devastated, then, as if checking to see the refs reaction, he looked up, taking his hands away, and there wasn't a tear in sight. If he wasn't crying, why hide his face?

As for Seamus, as club captain, instead of going to the Spurs dressing room, he should have gone straight to the hospital to check on his team mate and not worried about someone who had just committed a vengeful snide tackle from behind, which everyone knows is dangerous.

Even Atkinson, who sent off Rodwell for being in the vicinity of Dracula, saw the seriousness of it.

Brent Stephens
126 Posted 06/11/2019 at 17:40:38
Mick #124. Saw a leg break years ago. Had my head in my hands. No tears. I wasn’t “hiding my face”. It was a genuine reaction of horror.
Dave Abrahams
127 Posted 06/11/2019 at 17:58:38
We all have our own version of the Son incident and I respect those you think it was right that the red card was eventually rescinded although I was of the opposite view.

I also go along with Jamie Crowley's passionate version of Everton's reluctance to get involved with a defence of the way we were/ are treated by those in charge of running the premier league, he has apologised for using the Chamberlain bit, we are treated like an irrevalence and it definitely time for someone at the club to stand up and ask why we are treated this way. We fans care so it's time for Everton FC to show that they care.

Jer Kiernan
128 Posted 06/11/2019 at 18:06:12
@Jamie 120
I thought the analogy was a bit far fetched but don't see how it could possibly have offended anybody ? WW2 did happen the last time I checked

I myself would have to work extremely hard to find anyting "offensive" in what you posted but if you feel the need to apologize that is up to you

For rigth or wrong Chamberliain will always be a metaphor for tepid apeasment in favour of facing down imminent threats, and futility thereof ,,this is the analogy you used you didnt say or even imply that anybody was acting like Nazis ,is my 2 cents

Anyways more important the WW2 is our iminent threat of relegation :(

@Alan 117

Very funny post i really enjoyed reading and you do have a point ,,but didnt we have something like 2 shots on goal in 6 of FS last PL games ?? His big mouth on the sideline is all we should be missing though

Kim Vivian
129 Posted 06/11/2019 at 18:50:34
I have to change my stance on this.

I've just seen the picture for the first time on the GoT page which shows Gomes' studs in the ground, foot twisting and Son steaming in from behind, his leg clearly impacting with Gomes' foot. I had thought that the yard dog Auriel had exacerbated with his momentum, but seeing that photo, if the FA were to view it, makes the card rescinding outrageous. It's obviously not deliberate but his intention to hurt looks pretty transparent.

Clear red.

Andrew Keatley
130 Posted 06/11/2019 at 18:54:33
Mick (124) - “If he wasn't crying, why hide his face?” Who ever said covering your eyes/face and crying are mutually exclusive? Most of the players - when seeing the extent of the injury - automatically put their hands to their heads. It’s a common physical response to seeing something horrific.

And then you go and criticise Seamus for his response to the incident. I don’t want to insult you, but the thoughts in my head are not very complimentary right now. After everything that happened you think that the appropriate thing to do is to come on here and have a go at Coleman for showing compassion to the other team and criticise Son for not shedding tears?

Jamie Crowley
131 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:00:48
Andy, Eddie, Dave, and Jer (and back to Tony A as well) -

TY for supporting my submissions.

Jer, you say:

I myself would have to work extremely hard to find anyting "offensive" in what you posted but if you feel the need to apologize that is up to you

For rigth or wrong Chamberliain will always be a metaphor for tepid apeasment

When one of the founding Fathers of TW tells you your comments are, "totally fucking stupid and asinine", it's time to apologize and give up the fight. I don't have the guts or bravery to argue with Michael. I think it's best to just reel it in, call it a day, and hope to play nice moving forward. I find it difficult to take on a behemoth of TW, and just want us all to play nice.

I wish I had the courage to stand my ground, but alas, I don't. It's easier to take a pacifist stance moving forward.

But I do appreciate your comments.

Jer Kiernan
132 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:16:25
@Jamie 131 Your Worse than Chamberlain ffs!!!

, ,I kid of course :), , is up to you how you wish to proceed
You can agree to disagree with Micheal and move on, ,I fail to see how you set out or indeed managed to offend anybody by what you said is all

Its funny how so often the people so quick to take offence "on behalf" of the fallen, forget for what exactly it was they paid the ultimate price ( ie the freedom to express ideas without fear of recrimination ) This is not a dig at Micheal or TW as what I am talking about is a bigger sociatal issue that everybody is aware of which has no place on a footie website

Now as far as I am concerned you have the right to be offended and the right to change channel if you don't like what you see /hear and thats it, ,, but thats just me and probably why I don't run any websites :)

Onwards and upwards we have a relegation dog fight to concern ourselves with

Jay Wood

133 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:23:52
Jer @ 128.

To his credit, Jamie - on the prompting of Michael - has apologized and acknowledged the analogy he used was a poor one.

I don't see anyone being 'offended' by Jamie's (in the editor's words) 'stupid and asinine' post. Just a few comments on how bizarre the analogy was to throw into the Son-Gomes debate.

Lest we forget (you may or may not get that reference), just last week Jamie himself spoke with wholesome pride on the club's initiative to offer benefits to Evertonian service men and women.

He also shared with us the extremely moving story of his own kid brother's experience and resultant traumas serving with the American military. He was warmly praised by many a TWer, including myself.

Lest we forget, it is estimated anything between 70-85 million died worldwide as a result of the 2nd World War. 3% of the global population at that time.

Jamie's reference to Neville Chamber and to the 2nd World War in association to the Son-Gomes-Club PR topic of this thread wasn't even fanciful. It was crass.

It would have been crass at any time of the year, but it is all the more crass in this month, at this time. Or did either you or Jamie fail to note the absence of the pre-match siren on Sunday? The representation of the Armed Forces on the pitch before kick off? The playing of the Last Post in tribute to the fallen? The players' shirts bedecked with the poppy motif? The coaching staff and spectators in the crowd also bedecked with a poppy?

Personally, I am not comfortable with any glorification of nationhood or war. Analogies have their place. But to make the linkage Jamie did between the topic of this article to the deaths of tens of millions of people during the 2nd World War..?

As Jamie himself now acknowledges, "it was a poor one, and a reach."

Rob Halligan
134 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:30:48
I see Son is in the Spurs starting line up tonight. Clearly it didn't affect him too much what happened on Sunday then.
Jamie Crowley
135 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:31:18
Jer -

@Jamie 131 Your Worse than Chamberlain ffs!!!

Hmmmm. 🤔

Thankfully you can't know what's in my mind, any more than we can know what was in Son's mind when he made that tackle.

Jer Kiernan
136 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:33:40
I am very aware of the phrase Lest we forget but would like to re-itterate my opionion that Jamie didnt offend ANYBODY not the fallen, not his cousin, not you and not me, ,thats my point

Example : I quote
"But to make the linkage Jamie did between the topic of this article to the deaths of tens of millions of people during the 2nd World War..? You see Here is the problem

Jamie didnt do that YOU did ??????? Please explain where Jamie did this ? YOU just did it there, ,he just made a point of the pasivity of Chamberlain and the same traits in our club, ,if you CHOOSE to take offense on behalf of everybody that died in WW1/2 well that is YOUR choice

As Jamie himself now acknowledges, "it was a poor one, and a reach.

Thats his choice he didnt set out to offend anybody and didnt, Jay you chose to take offense on behalf of millions of dead soldiers, I am sorry we have to disagree on this and you can use as many corpses as you like to try to win an arguement I am well aware of the brutality of war and conflict

Anyways I have said my 2 cents on the subject and Jamie please check yourself before posting anything that "may" cause offense to anybody for anything

Brian Williams
138 Posted 06/11/2019 at 19:48:42
Hey. Jamie posted something. Michael pulled him on it. Jamie apologized.
Could that not be the end of it?
It could be if it was allowed to be.
Jamie Crowley
139 Posted 06/11/2019 at 20:02:50
I'm with Brian. Please move on. Everyone's made their points. I even made a cheeky one post-apology if you read between the lines.

Just move on. I'm sorry - now just as much for the diversion as I am the reference.

Michael -

I think your prior post to me should read in it's original form:

"totally fucking stupid and asinine"

And not the edited version now appearing as:

"...Jamie, what an asinine post at #71."

It didn't offend me in the least, and I'm rather surprised it was changed and toned down, dropping "totally fucking stupid".

Your site, do what you want. Sanitation is totally fucking stupid in this instance, but whatever.

Alan McGuffog
141 Posted 06/11/2019 at 20:30:16
Well we've done Chamberlain. We've let Michael Collins off... agreeing to Partition and all that. My missus is still cross about the carving up of Poland.

Getting back to EFC. It appears that one of our better players suffered what was almost a career-threatening injury on Sunday but as is the way of the world now the nation is in sympathy with a Sky team. Their players were so upset. They'll probably resort to litigation against Gomes for distress caused.

If ever, EVER, there was a chance for this team to say a collective Fuck You to Sky, BT, MotD,it is now.
I was brought up on the School of Science in the 60s but I want to see us fight, gouge, dive, cheat, win penalties, and generally make referees lives hell for the rest of the season.

No-one likes us anyway, seemingly, so let's cowboy up and kick some arse.

Rant over. Peace and good will.

David Greenwood
143 Posted 06/11/2019 at 20:34:47
Great rant, Alan. Brilliantly put.

Paul Birmingham
144 Posted 06/11/2019 at 20:47:52
It’s the bull shit and hypocracy of the FA, the tunnel vision view of the media, cowardice of the matchday officials on Sunday, the lack of backbone by the EFC directorate and the inevitable that on Saturday bar a miracle the Everton team will get turned over.

There’s a lot of frustration and anger and rightfully so.

Accepting that there’s always major incidents in every game and terrible fouls, in most games, and in context, of EFC, it doesn’t get much worse at the moment.

Steve Fearns is right and we must channel our energies, and feelings into beating Soton, and bracing for the onslaught of tough fixtures the next two months.

But the injustices of football as in life are tough to take, and we grow stronger, but when at the end of some day will EFC, first team start playing good consistently and be challenging, genuinely for trophies? That’s the reality and is the killer.

It’s feeling like we are just making the numbers up, and going through the motions again, as another season is compost, before Chrimbo.

Yet again the most common cliche of recent years and the Soton, game is massive, but for the wrong reasons.

Lose on Saturday, we are in big trouble, but we lose and get mauled, I see the door being left open for the manager and coaching staff, to depart a Finch Farm, on Sunday.

The lives and times of a Evertonians, is these days the road to no where.

BMD or not, the club, is in a very difficult position. It will be interesting to see if we can progress by Leicester and try and dig out a good FA Cup run.

That’s all that’s left, to try and win, but staying up for me is more important. Let’s hope the starting team v Soton, get right in and turn them over for 95 mins.

Make Evertonians proud at least for the day, as the supporters do deserve a good day, for a change.

Kieran Kinsella
145 Posted 06/11/2019 at 20:53:30
Chamberlain was guilty of pacifism but only because of the FA rules. During his one appearance for Everton, Alec was a sub at the 1987 Charity Shield. He would have got into a lot of trouble if he had run onto the pitch and interfered with things. Plus, he was never likely to displace Neville Southall.
Gary Mortimer
146 Posted 06/11/2019 at 21:24:56
Well he's scored 2 already tonight... it's really affected his season. Not!
John Atkins
147 Posted 06/11/2019 at 21:35:01
Really detesting Spurs fans right now! Listening and reading to their vile, arrogant, ignorant shite! Got to be honest, I've always disliked them.
Bill Fairfield
148 Posted 06/11/2019 at 21:36:00
What a fantastic counsellor Son has had! He's banging them in tonight... miraculous!
Phil Greenough
149 Posted 06/11/2019 at 21:41:57
Just as an aside about Chamberlain. There is a theory that Chamberlain knew full well about Hitler's intentions after visiting Munich in 1938. On return, he instructed his Government to increase war production.

It is contended that his alleged "pacifist" stance bought the UK a year to build up its military strength. So maybe he was not the appeasing fool history has portrayed him to be and therefore it would be imprudent to use him as a cowardice analogy.

Tony Abrahams
150 Posted 06/11/2019 at 21:52:31
This thread just gets better, but I'm off to listen to Roger Waters, singing it all makes perfect sense.
Phil Greenough
151 Posted 06/11/2019 at 21:54:32
I posted earlier today about Son and how indifferent TW members are about his red card being rescinded, because it didn't affect Everton directly.

The gist of my post was, it was May 2020, Spurs and Everton are 17th and 18th respectively. Only separated by Tottenham's superior goal difference, which was enhanced tremendously through the month of November 2019 by Son......

Tony Abrahams
152 Posted 06/11/2019 at 22:17:53
He's said sorry to Gomes, after scoring tonight, so no doubt he's going to get himself loads of pats on the back and words like 'class' will be used to describe everyone's favourite Son.
Jer Kiernan
153 Posted 06/11/2019 at 23:50:26
@Phil 149
Interesting point on Chamberlain which I wasnt aware, unfortunately for him the history books have been well written and his part very much scripted as I had said earlier "rightly or wrongly" percieved as Passive

@Tony 150
Part 2 is best, Jeff Beck is some man on the Axe

Derek Thomas
154 Posted 07/11/2019 at 00:31:36
Tony @112b; If Silva and/or The Club haven't said anything by now, then nothing (of any consequence) is going to be said.
At best or worst, it might get obliquely referred to in the pre-match press call.

Don't ask - don't get.
Ask - don't get.
Never ask - Never get.

As to fined a weeks wages, that would be a real punishment for me. If I was on Silva's money, more a minor inconvenience...I'd be inclined to get my money's worth, fortunes would be told and Industrial language might ensue.

Even if it is in Silva's, Moshiri's or anybody else's nature, we all know it won't happen - just like Son is not that sort of player (being red-carded for something similar last season) so he actually is... we're not that sort of club.

You could have a reign of terror at Everton with a balloon on a stick.

Nicholas Ryan
155 Posted 06/11/2019 at 00:36:57
People are saying 'It's a Red... It's a yellow...'; Isn't the real answer, that it's both - in the sense, that you could make an equally strong case for either.

Don't want to be a doom-monger, but I suffered a displaced ankle fracture in a student footie match [against a team of bloody Doctors, would you believe?! - St. George's Hospital, London]. I still have some pain and discomfort in the ankle … forty years later!!

Spare a thought for poor old Cenk Tosun … comes on as a late sub. immediately scores a decent goal and nobody anywhere has said a single word about it!

Ernie Baywood
156 Posted 07/11/2019 at 01:38:06
How the hell did a guy who committed a deliberate foul go from nice guy to Saint?

Red card or not... that's baffling.

Mick Davies
158 Posted 07/11/2019 at 01:39:38
Andrew @ 130 "I don't want to insult you, but the thoughts in my head are not very complimentary right now.". . is that what we call an oxymoron or just moronic?

I personally don't give a flying headbutt what you think of me as I don't know you but, after listening to Sky news about how Son 'has put a difficult few days behind him to help his team to victory', I feel vindicated: the 'man' looked like he never wanted to play again, yet just 3 days later, he's having the game of the season!

Seamus is one of my favourite players, but being the club captain, he should have been more concerned with his team mate, and not somebody who has just committed a nasty foul in revenge, and then gets all the sympathy. Coleman was not even involved in the game and not so long ago, suffered a terrible leg break himself, so answer this: who should have been more important to the Everton captain, the victim or the perpetrator?

Michael Kenrick
159 Posted 07/11/2019 at 04:58:07
Kudos, Jamie @120. Belated thanks from me for that acknowledgement. Appreciated.

Strange that 'taking offense' was brought up. It was never about giving or anyone taking offense. Jay's analysis @133 is spot-on.

I can only assume it was Lyndon who changed my post — he's gone all McFarlane and stopped me from fucking swearing. I am now offended!

Dave McDowell
160 Posted 07/11/2019 at 06:11:07
Mick #158 I agree with you regarding Seamus but I believe as he wasn't playing he didn't have the full picture regarding Son's on field intent.

The difference to me in this situation between the Coleman & McCarthy breaks is that they were clear accidents. You could see it was a freak occurrence in a contact sport but all players involved were honestly playing for the ball. In those instances all involved deserve attention.

Son deliberately played the man.

That to me automatically disqualifies him from any sympathy, any consoling, any "nice guy" tag.

I agree he could not predict the severe consequences but by deliberately playing the man he unnecessarily opened Gomes to injury.

I'm sick of seeing & hearing the media sympathising Son "coming through a couple of tough days".

The red card should have stood and he should be vilified by media, fans and pros alike not lauded for his "fortitude".

He played the man.

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