Patience?

BUT (there's always a but, isn't there?), in the lexicon of words used to describe 2019, patience won't be on that list. I personally have it, but I think so many do not because of the age we actually live in. News has been replaced by news nuggets to be digested in 24 hours before we're on to the next thing. Social media in particular, has made 240 word count mini-blogs the rule of the day, and genuinely given pretty much anyone the ability to stoke the fire with this complaint, or that complaint, or all the complaints. IMO this all leads to absolutely no patience at all. It feeds general fan sentiment, causing Clubs & their owners & Boards to feel the heat even more, causing THEM to lose patience, and sack managers like they grow on trees. It's a vicious cycle.

I recently watched (and loved) Howard's Way, and if you have as well (or better yet, lived it) you'll recall that leading up to that turning point Oxford United match, the daily papers were calling for Howard's head on a pike. But that was ALL he had to deal with. Could you imagine if Twitter had existed? It's very, very likely that the amazing team of 1984-87 would never have been given the time to gestate and thrive.

I've been voting for patience re: Silva since day 1, or at the very least until this campaign is sorted and done. Unfortunately, for many of the reasons I listed above, I'm in the minority here. I guess we'll see what happens.

Last note, all of the above is just my observation, and opinion. I'm 46 years old, so while I still remember the Dewey Decimal system, rotary-dial phones, and looking up information in my father's Britannica encyclopedia, I'm also very much cognizant of the technology revolution we're currently living in, where everyone has all they need to make snap judgments in the palm of their hands.

Of course, he had John Moores backing him to the hilt but that also meant having to sign a Walsall player, Bernie Wright, because they were in danger of going bankrupt, EitC of their day or the player Bury didn't have?

So, was the introduction of home raised youngsters the product of his non-hands on coaching, just better judgement of players and/or fearlessness in giving them the opportunity, something I think our present day manager might consider trying.

We are only three points behind 5th place and 6th place, Therefore there are only three points separating 15th place right up to 5th place.
The VAR incident at Brighton, really did cost us the game, that three points puts us in the top six and the conversations become very different.

I'm not excusing some very dire performances from Everton but there are a lot of under performing teams.
Another fact ( I haven't compared opposition ) we have won one more game than Spurs and the same amount of games as Arsenal and Man Utd.

In six weeks time, as 2020 dawns and we have played another eight league games and one cup game, including Liverpool, Leicester (twice), Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal we really will know whether patience is a virtue or sheer tomfoolery.

I don't know if Marco Silva is the man.

But if we sack him and get someone else, it's another 100 -200 million and will that work?

I enjoyed the post. I went to the same school as Colin Harvey, Cardinal Allen Grammar school, He was playing for Everton by the time I got there in 1964.
It was the only school in Liverpool that didn't play football. We played in the yard at break and lunchtime. But the school played rugby union. I knew nothing about the game.

One of the teachers was an ex-England and Barbarians player. It shows you how unique Colin Harvey was, no coaching in football at school, just bloody union.

After I left school the only union I was ever involved with again was a trade union.

Everton, putting a big wide smile on your dial, or breaking your heart, since 1878.

Not that I doubt you for a minute, but by virtue of my Surname...and the fact I'm a walking stereotype and can't help myself, I'd like a confirmation on that.

I remember Kendall's debut, you could see he was good but was maybe trying too hard. He wasn't helped by;
a) Ousting crowd favourite Jimmy Gabriel and...
b) Missing an open goal from 6yds in front of the Gwladys St.

But (on the OP)...does lightening strike twice, past performance is no guarantee of future performance, etc.
There can only be by definition, be one Kevin Brock moment.

For every Harvey and Husband that comes through there are ten that don't.

Catterick and Kendall to some extent, had the good luck to get International grade youngsters coming through...the fact that some got little or no England recognition is neither here nor there and for another day...all mixed in with bargins and the odd big money signings.

They say you make your own luck...Kendall Mk II & III, shows there is no magic formula.

I'm not sure Silva even has a formula and I don't think he's lucky. Nor am I sure this whole DoF formula is correct either.

Patience is in short supply nowadays...even from people old enough to remember and know better.

Who knows how much Moshiri has left...until we stumble over the line in May is my guess...and after that its who can tell.

To those who have posted comment so far there is little there I do not agree with. Ultimately we live in different times, for better or for worse.

I agree with Eddie's observation re modern day Chelsea. I suspect that the recent introduction of youngsters had a lot to do with Lampard coming in as manager as well as the embargo. Some of those lads have been knocking on the door for some time however during which time they got the odd appearance.

I smiled at the recollections about Bernie Wright. What a curious signing. I think by then HC was suffering from declining health. which if I recall correctly may have first come to the fore on Cup Semi-Final Day in 1971 when he was notable by his absence.

Seeing your post is titled patience, I thought I would list the honours that we have won since I started going the game in 1957 and what our neighbours have won in the same timescale. Bearing in mind that they were still in the old 2nd division when I started watching the blues in the top division.

LIVERPOOL TROPHIES
1ST Division winners,
1965/66, 72/73, 75/76, 76/77, 78/79, 79/80, 81/82, 82/83, 85/86, 87/88, 89/90

FA Cup winners
1964/65, 73/74, 85/86, 88/89, 91/92, 2000/01, 2005/06.

League Cup winners
1980/81, 81/82, 82/83, 83/84, 94/95, 2000/01, 2002/3, 2011/12

European cup/ Champions league winners
1976/77, 77/78, 80/81, 83/84, 2004/05, 2018/19

UEFA Cuo winners
1972/73, 75/76, 2000/01.

EVERTON TROPHIES
1st Division winners
1962/63, 69/70, 83/84, 86/87

FA Cup winners
1965/66, 83/84, 94/95

European Cup winners Cup
1984/85

The sad thing is that my generation is supposedly the lucky generation seeing some of our best teams. I think our fans have shown patience over the years, and non more so than todays younger fans. Its not patience we need its trophies.

Under Silva, we have had more games where the football is fluid and entertaining. To be sure, they are fewer games than the ineffective, slow and dull ones with too many sideways and back passes, but they happened nonetheless. Some of the best were against top-6 sides, and the one at Anfield seemed to silence all the reds I know, even with the goalkeeping blunder.

The nature of these relatively good performances has made Silva's presence a tantalising one, certainly in my eyes. They make me think, we can do it, we can compete with the best, but we just need more consistency. Also, bad luck with injuries, and some appalling officiating against us, adds to my thought that we could come good under Silva if our luck changes and we see better officiating. Every team needs luck, and officials to be 'reasonably fair', otherwise it's a struggle.

The above is my own reasoning for having patience with Silva, a belief that there are reasons to think that we could well come good, especially with better luck etc. The alternative is to dispense with him, and basically start all over again with a new manager, which carries its own risks, as we're all too aware from the previous three incumbents.

In terms of the account of how we developed in the 60s, there are definite similarities, in terms of building a side, bedding new signings in, and gradually gelling as a team, towards an identifiable and consistent style. We have some high quality players who would easily perform better in well-functioning sides, and who would easily find a place in top-6 sides. They just need to gel consistently, aided by better luck. Plus, we probably need two or three further quality signings to provide the strength in depth that would give a greater chance of consistency, especially in light of injuries.

Being 'mediocre' is clearly unacceptable to Evertonians, which to me simply underlines just how good we were when we were good. When you compare us to Liverpool, you're comparing us to the second most successful British club of all time. It's a pain in the arse, especially if you live amongst that lot, but not sad, not by a long way.

If Davies has been played on merit rather than when injuries took ever.

Likewise with Holgate, Kenny etc...

If off form players were out quicker, if we looked like we even had half an answer to playing against poorer teams, if substitutions didn’t consist of throwing everyone up front and hoping for the best...

At present I have very little patience because we plod on with a tried and tested unsuccessful formation, labour on with perennial under achieving mercenaries playing week in week out, persist in ignoring a successful youth setup, watch dumbfounded as we end up playing a 3-1-6 formation searching for a goal.

What will being patient with Sigurdsson, Schneiderlin and Walcott get us? (And to some extent Tosun and Keane). I’m more prepared to be patient with Brands as there is real potential in Digne, Mina, Gomes, and Kean.

Unlike my fellow Tw'ers, I just can't see where Silva is taking us, and strongly believe, as I have since his appointment, that he is not the one to lead us anywhere but between mediocrity and the relegation trap-door.

Tom Davies dropped to the bench, Holland 1-0 up midway through the first half.

Watched the Brazil-South Korea game earlier today. Richarlison with 7 on his back played centre forward. Gabriel Jesus with 9 on his shirt played right sided forward.

Brazil arrested a 5 match winless run since lifting the Copa Sul Americano in July with a much needed 3-0 win. Brazil has been playing like Everton this season. Slow, ponderous build up and no incisiveness. Today, they were a little better.

Our boy whilst not doing much wrong, didn't really shine either. One of his quieter performances in a Brazil shirt. He played the full 90, but only got 10 minutes on Friday v Argentina. The games were in the Middle East, so not too long a haul back to the UK.

If possible, I strongly suggest people should try to watch the Libertadores final on SATURDAY (I've mistakenly been saying Wednesday in recent posts, mixing up my dates with the Copa Verde final - a competition here in Brazil - in which my father-in-law's team is playing).

If you do take in the game, look at Flamengo's Gabigol who, IMO, would be a very good fit with Everton. 23 goals and counting in the Brazilian League, 7 more in the Libertadores - Latin America's CL equivalent. Just turned 23-years-old, loan spell from Inter Milan ends in December, Flamengo could land him for €23 million.

Most of the players were back in training today, specifically the European internationals like Digne and Sigurdsson.

I believe Kean missed the Italy games so let’s hope he’s been spending extra time with the manager and there’s a better plan now on how to maximise his use.

Link

Spurs need to make a good appointment otherwise they are going backwards fast.

Is there no such thing as credit in the bank for success anymore?

Maybe they've only just become aware that Silva is now available!! They'd be bound to go for him.

I’d swap for Pochettino, Brent. But it’s likely he’ll end up at Real Madrid.

And Poch will go to Bayern, mark my words.

I met The Catt only once and that was at a Sportsman's Dinner at Deepdale when he was manager of PNE in the mid-seventies.
Contrary to all my expectations, I found him to be most affable and more than prepared to talk to me and my fellow guests about his glory days with Everton. Strong drink had made brave one of my fellow guests ( a RS ! ) and he decided to take the' gypsy's kiss'. The names of Kay and Wright were brought into the conversation and whilst Harry was loathe to offer much more than a gesture at the mention of the former, he was very anxious to tell us that he' had nothing to do with the signing of Wright but everything to do with his quick departure! Without naming Tommy Eggleston, he told us that 'a caretaker' had been put in charge whilst he was off sick and, not impressed with David Johnson, he had taken Everton's Midlands scout's recommendation to sign Wright. Apparently, he, Catterick, had seen enough of him' arsing about' in just a couple of training sessions at Belfield to literally chase him off the premises !

Subsequently, a number of our players have confirmed to me that was exactly how Bernie 'got the bolt !'

I'd like Silva to succeed and think he needs more time, but it's rare such a Manager would become available.

He'll not be short of suitors.

So you don't even have Pep in the top 3? Not sure what to think about that other than most would consider him the best manager in the world, let alone the EPL. Did you forget him by chance?

edit: in other news, Kean has 2 1st half goals for Italy's U21 side today (in the Euro qualifying rounds).

Levy has always been an axe man when he deems right. Maybe the preseason antics may have broken the players spirit.

Well likely never know.

Let’s hope we can beat Norwich well on Saturday.

Mark @33, Guardiola is probably my pick for worlds greatest. That said, he’s never proved he can build something other than take a great side to even more greatness, which very few in history have done.

So Pochettino is now available. Maybe a test of our ambition would be to try to replace Silva with him. When Klopp became available the rs were doing fairly well under Rodgers but they didn’t think twice about kicking him into touch for Klopp, and look what happened. This is what real ambition is about, even though Rodgers had nearly won them the league - but somehow I think that plucky old Everton will labour on. and on

Kevin, answered you on the other thread. How can we get him here ahead of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich ant Man Utd. We can’t offer more wages, more transfer funds and we definitely can’t offer champions league football.

Most of those teams will want managers with trophies on their record.

I’m not saying it’s at all likely he’ll end up with us or a team of similar caliber but I don’t think it’s impossible.

So yes, I think all three will be on the phone to him already.

Ancelotti’s star has been on the wane for a little while now. Interestingly Napoli is a mess right now and it looks like his relationship with the President is in tatters. I therefore think he’s a very real possibility for Spurs.

Wenger is now in full time employment and works for UEFA or something and made it sound like that’s it for him. Emery would be far behind Pochettino for any job.

Pochettino to Man Utd seems nailed on to me. They can wait until Christmas and wait for Solskjaer to mess up further meantime Pochettino recharges his batteries. Maybe they even do a deal now for the summer and give Solskjaer the chance to see the season out and bow out with a bit of pride.

The problem is easy enough to understand, we have had three bad managers on the run and there is no obvious better replacement who will take the job, or any easy answers to our long term march into mediocrity.

Spurs stock however, has risen for many seasons now, so
ironically, they are able to sack the very manager many of us have craved for and will get a good replacement, just wait and see.

Spurs probably have the replacement lined up already but sadly it won't be Silva at Everton. (boo-hoo)

He struck lucky having one of the best English goal scorers ever (who he only made a regular after he started scoring in the Europa league and was hounded by fans into playing him) He also walked into Christian Erickson.

He has also struggled repeatedly when it matters most and the wheels have well and truly fallen off this last year.

Maybe he’s not quite as good as some make out and has been a happy benefactor of circumstance.

Leicester performed a miracle. It had three men at the centre of it. Raneiri, Shakespeare and Walsh. The latter two we picked up shortly afterwards. Clearly they were less effective than we thought. So, that leaves Ranieri or the biggest piece of luck football has ever seen.

Trevor @48 "Moshiri has probably ran out of it too." Curious what you're basing this on?

Clearly the best manager in the Premier League, by a country mile, is Guardiola. City win loads of silverware, and do it in style, with real footballing panache. In comparison, the rest are ordinary. Pochettino being sacked is no surprise.

Regarding Ranieri, he was certainly a lucky benefactor of circumstance. Leicester made good use of the luck to be sure (with the top teams of Utd, City and Chelsea performing well under par), but luck it most definitely was.

They both come away without too much damage to their reputations, Poch will still be in high demand and Spuds get to send out a message that they have very high standards and don't (unlike some clubs) do sentimentality

i have begrudging admiration for Levy also I must admit, he has great business acumen and is not afraid to make a call

Although I feel he didnt back Poch just when they were making that last big step, however Levy would point to the impressive new stadium

Sooner or later somebody has to take a punt on Eddie Howe, I am hoping it will be us

WHU to get the Spurs 'new manager' bounce.

The manager merry go round will start, when the music stops and the picking's done, we'll be left with the fat kid with the glasses - or Silva.

Go speccy, lead us to glory.

And yes, I'm kidding.

Lewis owns the club, ground, brand and whatever else is Spurs but, with his wealth, can afford not to fanny about when things start going pear-shaped.

We, as we know, are nowhere close to that situation. We fans/supporters have to endure year-on-year ineptitude at the top of the club whilst we close in on 25 years without a trophy, in an inadequate ground.

Still, there's only a few weeks max to go before the Bramley-Moore Dock planning application goes public, so what's to worry about... eh?

Derek @59, while that was a good one, I'd drive the black car to greet Pep & Arteta at Finch Farm, and you can serve them cocktails. Wait, you better drive and I'll serve cocktails. Wrong side of the road and all :)

Oh, and the latest swirling rumor is that WHU is going to go after Rafa.

If memory serves, he was one of three players involved with young ladies from Holy Cross, I think, at training and two of whom were transferred out almost immediately while the third was a lot more difficult to replace.

If anyone has a clearer recollection, then I'll stand corrected but those were my recollections.

Now another fan Allasdair writes his own sincere and well presented article which I read and appreciated. I hope he knows that. You have since presented eleven (I counted them) responses supposedly about his article.NOT ONE was about his fine presentation but all about what you think about various managers etc etc etc

To me you have reached far beyond the sublime degree of arrogance. Do you really think you are the only Evertonian in the room? You always have lots to say, some of it worthwhile. Please respect other contributers. IT WAS HIS ARTICLE not yours.

December shaped our season last year, it destroyed us for three months.

Hopefully lessons are learned and we can really go out there and do something.

Poor start to the season well now is our chance to really put that right.

I gather Mourinho has been appointed in his stead. Well there's a man with little or no patience. He is capable of falling out with the team and Mr Levy at the drop of a hat.

John@64. Thanks for your supportive remarks. However I am not in any way disturbed that my posting has provided a hook for numerous comments re the Spurs debacle.

Thanks also for the comments of Mark, Lenny and others about who should take the can for signing Bernie Wright. I saw him play for the Blues at Coventry and was dismayed that the management thought he was fit to wear a Royal Blue Shirt.

David Moyes was given plenty of chances, his bad season after 7th (when we finished 17th) and then the collapse after we finished 4th (when we recovered to 11th - I think). He ultimately repaid the faith by delivering consistent top 6 finishes.

Whether or not he over stayed his welcome by failing to break through the glass ceiling is a different story.

I think if you give a decent manager time they will get things right. And as for Pochettino, I think Spurs have done the wrong thing, not only sacking one of the best managers in the world, but also by replacing him with the wrong one.

As Mark @ 1 says, patience is very hard now in the social media age of instant news, reactions and mob hysteria. But a clear-headed strategy built on developing young talent is sustainable, as Borussia Dortmund have demonstrated over many years.

On Pochettino, a Champions League final and four successive top-four finishes in 5 years - all with a £95 million net spend due to the one billion stadium costs. He is an extraordinary manager and the Levy - Mourinho relationship has "car crash" written all over it.

I would love Pochettino at Everton, but doubt he would want to step into the same "stadium-financing" limitations to squad development that he has just experienced.

Catterick did gradually get the right mix of players, as you suggest. His sides where always consistently competitive and a handful to play against. Catterick as a Manager was competitive at the top of the game at that time. What's more, he proved it. The Club had a winning mentality at that time, which today only exists amongst fans who where brought up on the mentality of that era and the 80s.

Everton as a Club are now defined by their Premier League position and whether they are top this or that – or aiming at top this or that. In the successful era you have mentioned, Everton's aim was to win any competition it entered and they had the overall management to do it.

During the Kenwright era, the sole aim was to stay in the Premier League and employ glass-ceiling managers. In some cases, it was hoped that the manager may perform beyond it, on glass-ceiling expectations and budget. Instead of staying where they were, Everton started to slip into the era of no investment in facilities, players or management. Everton became a selling Club. Everton needed a billionaire to fill up the bare cupboard as a result of the poor management who squandered its contents.

So the situation is that Everton are in the middle of a three-year plan to set the foundations of a winning club. The manager they have is the only suitable manager and there isn't the stomach or an available manager to rep!ace him, to start the three-year plan over again. What's more internally most believe that Everton's main objective is to survive in the Premier League – probably the lowest acceptable achievement that the new owner would accept in his overall plan. Which is the highest level of achievement that most of the Everton management is capable off.

How does this compare with Tottenham? Pochettino is a similar Silva-type placement. Brought in to build a team that would challenge in the top four. He was very successful in doing this and Tottenham's projected prosperity was enough to finance a new Stadium, but the previous glass-ceiling expectations that existed before Pochettino arrived proved restrictive in bringing Tottenham to the next level – the winning mentality level.

Their European Cup final performance was of a tired-looking side way beyond any performance peak. Employing Mourinho is not going to make that much difference, because the mentality of the club has not changed.

In Everton's case, there will be expectations of Everton moving to the next level next season. This will only happen if there is a wholesale change in competitive performance and attitude. Silva would need to be thinking of showing signs of such a change this season.

Pochettino's mistake was accepting Tottenham's club mentality and not moving on. Maybe he didn't have any offers, though there were rumours he was looking. Silva will have to decide at the end of his contract whether it is time to move on and Moshiri will have to decide if he wants to move to the next level or is the present manager suitable?

Moshiri is probably happy with his Everton investment, more valuable shares, and a front seat in a Dockland development, but it will become apparent that Everton as a club will have to move to a higher level, if he is to realise more profits.

Patience is necessary. . . winning is a must.

As for the neurological issues, Steve, I don't have any knowledge but it's obviously sad to see footballers who suffer in later life. A significant number seem to do so in a variety of ways and they certainly took a battering in the 70s. They still do, I guess.

Does it happen in rugby where you would think head impacts are more consistent by far? How many boxers develop dementia?

I note you say David Moyes was given time but in reality it was treading water or going backwards and was typical of the mentality and approach of the Kenwright era which is characterised by our reduced status as a footballing institution. I am of the view that Moyes was part of the problem in that overall approach with his predominantly negative tactics and love of playing the underdog.

I have little faith in Silva but if your optimism is proved correct and he can develop a front-foot team that restores Everton as a footballing force, I will be the first to buy the man a drink!

Anyway, I think Silva is more suited to breaking through that glass ceiling that Moyes could not and I still believe he will.

Between them, Moyes and Kenwright established an accepted narrative of 'plucky little Everton, punching above their weight'. It enabled both of them to cast themselves in a good light.

And all the while our historical peers and competitors were running away in the distance, over the horizon, whilst other lesser clubs caught us up and indeed overtook us.

'Patience' is the title of this thread. Everton has reduced most of us to be 'Patients', more's the pity.

That's exactly what happened.

I don't think you could honestly say Silva should be afforded patience because Catterick was showed some apparently. The man won 2 league titles and the FA Cup within 7 or 8 years. Does anyone honestly expect Silva to get anywhere near what Catterick achieved?