Plans for full vaccination required to attend Premier League games

I know people are dying and stuff. But this Covid19 passport is getting a bit like Logan's Run or a better version of the Orwellian 1984. We're going to have no rights before we know it. We never got Freedom Day back on 19 July, we got surveillance back. Body scanners in airports never stopped terrorists. There is now face recognition technology now in Asian airports. It feels more like a dystopian version of Tron. The human version.

We have to be able to mobilse and build on the huge benefits of the incredible vaccination programme in the UK if we are to move forward. But the value of that programme is reduced by every person who does not take up the vaccine when offered.

That is why the vaccine passports make complete sense, and should be a requirement for all sorts of places where people will be gathering in any sort of numbers, not just Premier League games. You can argue all day long about where the lines should be drawn but hopefully this will make those who are hesitating, go ahead and get jabbed.

The crazy thing is: Why wait until the end of September? I suppose that's to give more people the opportunity to get jabbed but, as far as I can tell, the rate of vaccine uptake has dropped way down, so I can't see that there are supply or availability issues here.

Michael, it seems to be the younger element that have been reluctant to commit to the Vaccination Protocol. I remember a while back there were all sorts of Videos going round on Social Medias about Conspiracies regarding vaccination. Not that I advocate or am a member of any Social Media Platforms (Just What's App) but the others Facebook/Twitter/Twatter/Instagram, all seem to make their way on to What'sApp eventually.

That could be the reason for scepticism amongst the younger groups, for not going along with the flow, and doing what us old farts have been 'duped' into doing. It does seem to be another precaution from a Government who haven't got a clue what they are doing from day to day with the Virus, let alone people's lives.

I suppose too there are many political aspects to this, ie if you have pre-paid for a Season Ticket in the knowledge that everything was slowly getting back to normality (ish) and now due to Government intervention you can't exercise that prepaid right to attend.

Just hope it gets sorted without too much upset all round!

I don't think the Government have any interest in making these checks for access to events mandatory, but they're hoping the threat of making them so will incentivise enough people to take up the vaccinations offered so that we can achieve a satisfactory level of herd immunity, whatever that level may be.

Derek,

The problem we have now is that the vaccination programme has slowed right down, with less being administered in England week on week. In some instances, this is because the younger cohort is treating it as just not urgent, as well as some outright reluctance. Certainly not as urgently as older people.

The number of tests is also reducing, and has been for a couple of weeks.

So the perfect time to do away with social distancing!

Anyone might think we're back to herd immunity.

I personally have no issue with being asked to present evidence of something. I travel a lot and show my passport. I spent many years showing ID to get onto military & government installations. Some places now require physical pass then biometrics for entry. Not a problem for me.

Givem that and the fact I'm fully vaccinated, I suppose in the interest of balance, what about those who genuinely cannot be for whatever reason? There will inevitably be some? Do they get treated as 2nd class citizens and denied certain rights and freedoms?

I'm sure it's a small one, but still a conundrum?

Your comment reminds me, Danny #7, the passport we rather take for granted when travelling abroad was also introduced as a temporary measure, I believe. Governments do love to have power over the individual - all for the greater good, of course!

The chief advisors and the SAGE committee, are concerned that there's going to be another big surge as we come into Autumn. I think the Govt have been caught between the expert advisors, urging caution; and the various industries; notably the so called Hospitality industry and the Travel industry, screaming out for relaxation.

There are people who will never have the vaccine and that's there right. The virus is still there, it will never go away and it can kill or seriously affect people of all ages. So if they have pre paid for a season ticket, but don't want to gwet the vaccine, fair enough. They should be fully entitled to a refund.

I don't think there's any easy way out of the lockdown that we've had,. The people who we trust in the NHS to protect us the best they can, reckon that vaccination is only way of combatting this virus. As far as I know, there is no such thing as herd protection against it yet. Even if we have had the vaccine, it can still attack us and make us ill.

I'm old enough to remember the Polio vaccination programme and the needle being replaced by the sugar lump. Thank the NHS for more or less wiping polio out. The same with TB, us all getting the jab as kids.

If you've got a crowd together, clubs,matches, theatres, may be even pubs, they want to ensure they can stay open, and I think the majority will want to feel as safe as they can be.

Going to a football match or a gig is not a human right so the people I see claiming that this will deny their human rights have spent too long listening to the wrong sort of people.

You still have your freedom of choices but as with all choices in life it brings consequences with it.

To be clear, I'm not talking about those who choose. I'm talking about those who can't. There will be some.

Danny, surely anyone who cannot take the vaccine, for reasons such as allergies, would be exempt from the need for a vaccine certificate.

The vaccine certificate should be a norm for all people, and this would encourage those who can to take the vaccine.

The vaccine is what will make us able to 'go back to normal'.

I find it perplexing that night clubs and such have opened when still so many are only partially, or not at all vaccinated.

I agree Fran. Personally I have no issue. I'm used to following orders and rules. Even when I haven't agreed with them, along as I understand the logic, I'll go with it. And even if I didn't, I just got told too do it anyway!!!

It just made me think, there will be exemptions. Like anything, if implemented, it can't be a black and white rule in my view.

Just back from 10 days in Lanzarote where zero people are in hospital with Covid 19 and only nine deaths on the island due to Covid to date. Plenty of form filling before arrival and all paperwork checked at the airport along with your temperature. Mask wearing is mandatory in public places, shops etc. On the spot fines if you don't comply. All islanders have been double jabbed within six weeks.

The Rapid Antigen Test we had to take in Lanzarote cost 20 euros per adult. The same test on day two of return in England costs £70 per adult.

Flying back to the UK and plenty of form filling before departure and all checked at Lanzarote airport. On return to Manchester airport and not one check just a poster stating "Random paperwork checks in operation" and we wonder why we are behind the chase.

Quite a lot of pubs are still operating some social distancing measures, but by no means all. There is some evidence of some pub goers being deterred by a complete abandonment of social distancing.

Danny, it's going to prove difficult, I think. but if it can be done, then great. But the most vital thing is to keep people as safe as we can, in a crowd event.

The Govt announcement is hardly a surprise. My guess is that people will be required to show proof of either double vaccination or a test (probably lateral flow) taken within xx hours of the game. Lateral flow tests are free and results confirmed by fax to a mobile phone - which virtually match going fan has. The weakness is that they rely on the person testing posting an honest result. Would football fans who fail a test be honest is another question.
The other interesting aspect involves the practicality of checking 40,000 fans on arrival. Cannot see that happening so either they'll need to find another tech solution or maybe randomly asking 1 in every x00 fans to show their COVID status on the NHS app.
Of greater importance to our friends on the other side of Stanley Park is. how to get their Scandinavian fan base into Mordor if quarantine rules remain in place?
We watch with interest.

Democracy comes at a price. Imagine mandatory vaccination for all eligible to receive it - there would be a civil war. The truth however, for the security of everybody living on this island, it would be a perfectly sensible solution.

As I said, democracy comes at a price and something we should hold dearly - however there are times when …….?

Derek Knox @ 4

The "younger element" have pot, speed, ecstasy, cocaine, LSD etc etc, to protect and float them away.

They don't need vaccinations for something that kills their grandparents, this mythical monster that killed granny, can't enter their chemically protected bubbles.

They're safe!

This is simply fascism of the vilest stripe. But, I guess if you you tolerate taking a knee for Marxism, you'll tolerate just about any imposition.

Michael Kenrick#1 and Andrew Ellams#10 - well said lads.

I have lost elderly relatives to Covid. I have been vaccinated and think it has been a magnificent achievement by scientists. I think our best chance for a return to our old life is for most people to reach a reasoned view that it is the best thing to do.
However, I do feel uneasy that there will be consequences for those who will not volunteer. No football, no trips abroad? Well I guess most can live with that. No job? Mmm, not so easy. What sanctions are left after that?

Seb #20

The England team explained many times (and released a statement) about why they have been taking the knee. Nothing whatsoever to do with Marxism

I think deep down you know that the players taking the knee are making a peaceful gesture about anti racism rather than being Marxists

Otherwise you're actually pretty obtuse and/or you obviously have a pretty sad agenda

Ben @23 sorry not correct taking the knee was directly linked to supporting BLM that has now been proved to be a Marxist organisation
Football should have taken a different route to stand up to racism that absolutely should be stood up to but taking the knee ain't the way to do it.

The facts, increasingly supported in law in the UK as rational people bring cases to courts (check out the "Good Law Project's" website for fact, not government fiction) despite BoJo's manic suppression of the truth, suggest that the UK Government have spent £tens-of-billions on contracts to their personal mates under the guise of "saving the nation".

To some of us TWers that'll be way too much info maybe (akin in my opinion to not identifying Kenwright as the architect of our thirty year demise - and be fair, you all knew it was coming!) but politics aside I suggest Covid is now being significantly overblown as a lethal threat to 1st world countries.

More people die of bog-standard 'flu than Covid these days but the UK Government, having squandered the finance of the UK for the next ten years to their pals who baselessly assured Covid protection, need to keep the fear alive.

That's the sole reason, in my opinion, that the lying twat that masquerades as our PM will try to postpone a public inquiry into his activities until the day he dies, at least.

Just read the "take the knee" debate that was input whilst I was typing.

TTK recognises an irrefutable historic point to me and that is that ethnic people have been short-changed, at least, by first-world white nations for centuries.

To me, now, it may have been at the time due to a lack of awareness or education. Who's to now know?

That said, we of rational outlook, with the plethora of unarguable (except to a racist muppet) discriminatory evidence so easily available to us should now move towards generating harmony between races, the vast majority of other races seeking no more than harmony in my opinion.

Don (25), how about listening to the medical staff working for the NHS?

Doctor on R5 tonight explaining how delta variant means a lot more cases are happening in younger age group and the serious cases are pretty much exclusively in the unvaccinated. Enough cases at present to take up capacity of ICU and so NHS isn't able to operate the way it should be and he's absolutely dreading what autumn and winter will bring.

He doesn't advocate forcing people to get vaccinated but stated that, at the moment, it is simply the logical thing to do to best safeguard yourself and others.

I agree that the government are a bunch of self-serving wretches and personally think they are over-pushing the flawed lateral flow tests because they massively overspent on them, but that doesn't mean all of the advice is useless.

Agree it is a 'freedom of choice' decision if an person wants to receive the vaccination or not – it's the ultimate expression of self-determination to reject something that could prevent you dying!

However, this is also a global public health crisis. Self-determination does not extend to the right to present an increased risk to others and potentially spread infection. Therefore, if people cannot attend a football match, restaurant, bar or take a flight because they refused vaccination, then it is an outcome of the choice they made. These protestations about Covid Passports strike me as wanting to have their cake and eat it.

For those who are unable to take the vaccination due to allergic reactions or pre-existing health conditions, I would respectfully suggest that they keep themselves safe rather than attend large events right now.

Ian @ 24. BLM being a Marxist organisation was a complete load of nonsense spread by far right hatemongers such as Trump, Farage etc so that the simpletons who hang onto their coat tails would spread the lie via social media and internet forums. Don't be that sheep, Ian.

Steve Brown... spot on. We are all free to get absolutely mullered in the bar at an airport. It is the inalienable right of a free-born Brit to down ten pints of lager and a few shots.

It is also then the right of the airline to refuse to allow you up the steps as you are then considered a danger to others.

You makes your choice...

Steve (28),

"Self determination does not extend to the right to present an increased risk to others."

ut surely it does, and in numerous forms, and on a daily basis. If it was true, then none of us would be driving cars, and we'd have long had mandatory vaccinations for influenza.

Every government seeking to quell dissent and enforce compliance uses the reasoning that their actions are for the common good. Johnson and Co will have been both surprised and delighted to have witnessed such unquestioning acquiescence from the public over the various ways it has taken away individual freedoms and ended parliamentary democracy in its approach to controlling Covid. This has been a lesson that will be doubtless be taken on board by all future governments. The implementation of mandatory covid passports in whatever form provides another means of control that will be built upon.

[Alan (30), remind me at which airport that took place – was I with you? Must get together again soon]

Andrew - Ian is correct. BLM is totally Marxist.

I should know. I initially supported BLM matters and then all of a sudden I find myself buying and reading Das Kapital in the original German (and I didn't even know I could read German). I'm now fomenting class warfare in my own province and arguing with shopkeepers about dialectical materialsim.

'Twas a slippery slope I slid down. Be warned!

Spot on Steve Brown. I coughed up for my season ticket (despite my intense dislike of Benitez) in the expectation that those in the ground will be double jabbed. If not, I will be seeking a refund because I am not willing to take the risk. If you do not want a vaccination, fair play, but do not endanger me.

As for "taking the knee", how can anyone object to a gesture that is trying to project that racism is not welcome? That's all it is, a gesture, and after the abuse footballers suffered online, it's the least we ca do but allow a gesture to be made. If you cannot abide a gesture for a matter of seconds, then you need to ask yourself some serious questions.

It must often, let's be honest, vary from dispiriting to frightening to attend football matches as a black or Asian person.

When a crowd boos the taking of the knee, it must be pretty unpleasant.

I doubt our black and Asian supporters are reading the boos as an objection to alleged Marxist links. I'm certainly not.

Ian #24

Sorry, it is YOU who is incorrect: one may take the knee for a variety of reasons. Footballers have told you over and over again why they have taken the knee - it's as a symbol against racism

I accept that there is another reference point ie BLM and/or supposed Marxism. But at some point you will have to use your brain and ask yourself:

Are footballers more likely to be making a gesture towards peace and tolerance or have some secret/non secret political affiliation that they've finally found a way to express

As I say, use your brain, you have an opportunity here to decide for yourself

Robert @ 32, oh wow now you mention I did see a recent interview with Harry Kane where strongly advocated the workers rights to seize the means of production.

I missed his point initially.

Robert/Andrew - So that's why Phil Foden won't stop banging on about the bourgeoisie?

Now it all makes sense!

футбольный клуб Эвертон

"There's Archimedes, and I think he's had an idea! “Eureka!” Archimedes, out to Socrates. Socrates back to Archimedes. Archimedes out to Heraclitus who beats Hegel. Heraclitus a little flick. Here he comes, on the far post. Socrates is there! Socrates heads it in! Socrates has scored! The Greeks are going mad! The Greeks are going mad! Socrates scores! But a beautiful cross from Archimedes. The Germans are disputing it! Hegel is arguing that the reality is merely an a prioriadjunct of non-naturalistic ethics. Kant, via the categorical imperative, is holding that ontologic exists only in the imagination, and Marx is claiming that it was offside."

International Philosophy Match, Germany v Greece, Olympic Stadium Munich

Match Highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXOKsJViHtY

Tony, yep but he's starting to get a bit boring now.

Barry @ 38, that sketch is a thing of genius

Whilst the "official" death toll for Covid is circa 4.16 million worldwide, the unofficial toll according to the Economist statisticians are estimated between 7 and 13 million and rising. The problem is that there are no standard reporting of deaths or above average deaths in many countries or what constitutes a covid related death. Many don't count them, some deliberately misinformation the amount of deaths for political gain etc etc..
You rarely here the naysayers here or anywhere else saying it's no worse than the flu anymore, thankfully, so a handle on reality of just what the UK government is doing must be like waiting for the penny to drop and the chances are when it falls over, the experiment with the population of the UK will be laid bare. As it stands, so many are catching the virus the government has effectively given up and opened the doors to one and all, accepting deaths and probable long term health issues in favour of removal of furlough, benefits and support to let the people choose. This abdication of responsibility will mean far more deaths than could or should be the case. But life is cheap to many governments.
With respect to freedoms. Whether it be choice or speech, everything you say and do impacts on others, it impacts on their freedoms so the pendulum swings both ways. Freedom to choose what is good for you, can be costed against the impact of that choice. Unless mandated, you have choice and an illusion of free will. But then consequences of free speech or free choice, must be balanced against outcome. The needs of the many will always outweigh the needs of the few, but ignoring the implications of those consequences is the dereliction of personal responsibility to others in favour of self.
Now having said all that, of course there will be perfectly good reasons some will not or cannot be vaccinated. There will be those who believe that the vaccines are harmful, they do have the choice not to take, but I have the choice not to accept such actions and consider them a threat to me or mine and take suitable precautions to ensure personal safety. Most likely the many will then limit the choices of the few to protect thems elves. So the enactment of freedom of speech or choice is not freedom from the consequences or responsibility to others.
How to say an awful lot without saying much at all..

Corona virus is smaller than the wave length of light. Many millions of them can fit on a pinhead.
For all our foreseeable futures it is going to be around. Some scientists say it, or something similar, will always be here.

People can mitigate the risk of infection by restricting social contact but it is the level of production of an individuals own T cells and antibodies that will be, in the end, the key preventer of serious illness.

T cells and antibodies are produced by a level of exposure to the virus or by exposure to an altered version via a vaccine.

I thought I'd state this obviousness so we are not living in cuckoo land.

Talking of cuckoo land. Pensions, NHS payments, in fact all monetary payments have value because money itself only has value because people go out to produce goods and services.

An endless lockdown would eventually lead to a million pound loaf of bread. And the virus would still be out there ready to spread, evolve and re-infect.

I think any responsible government would inform, cajole and even coerce people into getting jabbed.

Taking the knee means you support BLM, as I see it. I couldn't find anything specifically Marxist on their website, but there is quite a lot about defunding, or "disinvesting", the police, which I don't think I could support, not least because black people are disproportionally the victims of crime.

It's a shame that a good notion like anti-racism has got tangled up with other issues which not everyone is in favour of.

It's amazing how many people speak of Marxism when it's very clear they've never read a damn thing written by Marx.

Robert #43 didn't Marx once say "Je ne suis pas marxiste"? I am not a Marxist.

Because people misunderstood his ideas.

Just a few points; it's everyone's 'human right' to refuse to be inoculated but it's also everyone else's right not to be put at risk by these people. I know being inoculated only reduces your chances of being infected but if you are infected the evidence also shows you have a better chance of surviving. If I worked in an ICU I'd be really pissed off by these idiots putting myself and my colleagues at risk.

It appears to be the same idiots who allege BLM is a Marxist front. Complete and utter bollocks! These idiots are racists (they all deny this, of course) who are being manipulated by Trump, Johnson, Farage et al.
How do I know BLM isn't a Marxist front? Because I'm a Marxist myself.

Well said Bill (#45), and if you don't mind me saying so you talk common sense, not Marxism!

Some people really need to give their heads a wobble.

Bill, very well said I am sick of people banding words like Marxism and perish the thought socialism when they don't know what they mean. ‘Socialist' being dropped from the so called Labour party for years now along with Claus 4.

When papers like the Sun, Star, Express and Mail are the most read papers what do you expect. Rant over.

I think we're both from a time when people cared, Unions are a dirty word also now, the biggest closed shops are and always have been within the so-called ruling class.

Don and John; the great marketing triumph of the Tories has always been in persuading ordinary people to vote against their own best interests and in infiltrating the Labour Party as an insurance for the odd time they lose an election. We actually live in a sham democracy; we think we have a choice but the reality is we don't.

Derek; I don't believe, for one minute, that Bill Gates is controlling my DNA after I had my jabs. Mind you, I have become a whiz on the laptop!!

Does anyone know where the phrase to give your head a wobble came from? I think I've only seen it on TW.

Barry #38, I've been trying to come up with a pun about Socrates being poorly Marxed by the defense, but I just Kant do it.

Robert #43, no, they can't read... but they can still be outraged by the exploitative capitalistic militarism exposed in Marx's greatest work.

Duck Soup.

Just a heads up for those thinking of applying for an NHS Covid Pass. Although you can get one via the NHS App some of us old farts may also prefer a hard copy.

I have one and it took about 5 working days to arrive, so apply well before the season starts.

Isn't it only valid for about a month, Bill?

The one in the app is only valid for 2 days, so would expect the hard copy to be about the same!

Apparently 60% of people being hospitalised currently are not vaccinated. Unsurprisingly.

Not quite sure what you're looking at Steve, but the one I have on the NHS app has a QR Code on it, and underneath this is a message that says “2D barcode expires” followed by a date. Basically the 2D barcode refreshes every time you log in. If you generate a PDF copy of the pass, the barcode will expire 30 days from date of issue. To get a new one you simply log back on. This COVID pass shows literally everything about your vaccines. This was all we needed to show at Manchester airport when we went to Madeira at the end of June to prove we had had both jabs.

Cheers Rob. I understand that it refreshes on each login. But the QR code I downloaded was still only valid for 48 hours. I assume you can just make another when the period is up, for offline use. I've not used it, but got it ready for going back to Goodison. Hopefully, I will get to see James play at least once!

Actually Steve, is that what the 2D means, 2 days? I've not known what it means and never bothered to find out!!

Actually forget that, because as I've logged on to the NHS App today, it now says 2D barcode expires 26th August.

Bill (51) How do you apply for a hard copy?

Dave, the following link tells you what to do and also gives some useful information.

https://www.doncasterccg.nhs.uk/nhscovidpass/

If you want to take the experimental vaccines then fine, it's your body but forcing them on people via coercive diplomacy and peer pressure is an absolute disgrace and a stain on humanity. And vaccine passports are a complete waste of time as people can still catch and pass on covid (how do they even call this a vaccine?). That people think this is a good idea is even more worrying than the dystopian behaviour of global governments. If you're fit/healthy under 55, there is little to fear from Covid (avg age of death is 83) so why force it on people - what's the real motive? It's an absolute fucking disgrace.

Rob, isn't "2D" short for two dimensional? That's how I read it.

Nick, I have a few friends who are competitive amateur athletes (cyclists and runners) who are 35-45 and work on the front line and ended up in hospital. So I find your comments a disgrace, particularly having lost a family member to COVID. But yeah, you keep listening to David Icke, he knows best.

Dave #58, when you log on to the app & it updates your details, like Rob mine now says 26th August, there's also an option to download a PDF copy &/or receive an offline copy by email.

What has David Icke got to do with governments making people take an experimental vaccine, Steve? Is it not an experimental vaccine? Do you know how many people have died of Covid, under 55 without a co-morbidity (it's the govt website - you can check if you're bothered)? Should people not have a choice? If you want debate why coercion is wrong and anti-democratic then feel free but don't start throwing well worn, media cliches at me….it's a sign of low intelligence. And P.s. I've had all my real vaccines, my wife has had two Pfizer shots as has my mother. My father passed away from a virus late 2019, which could have been Covid as he was also on a ventilator. He also had multiple myeloma and was immune compromised.

Nick, you can have all the choice you want, but I don't want people who refuse the vaccine to be near me in the stadium. I know I can still catch it and can still pass it on despite having the Pfizer vaccine myself, so I want to limit the risk as much as possible and try to get back to a normal life. This will not happen whilst people spread misinformation. But yeah, accuse me of low intelligence all you want. And no it is not an experimental vaccine, have a look at the fact check on that one.

I fully support the idea that you have to prove you have had 2 jabs to attend football or other large sporting gatherings. But how are they going to check everyone has the right accreditation before allowing them inside the ground?

Many fans turn up 10 or 15 minutes prior to the game starting – can you imagine what would happen if the game kicks off and there are fans still having to queue to show their accreditation? I certainly wouldn't like to be one of the stewards doing the checking in such circumstances.

I would imagine that they could ask all season ticket holders to provide this information before the season starts, and would that mean in order to check non-season ticket holders they would have to forward their information prior to buying a ticket.

For six days in a row now Covid cases are decreasing in England, and by as much as 24% from this time last week, I've just read; news that has got a lot of scientists baffled.

We still have so much to learn and to understand about this virus, which has claimed countless lives, and also created countless arguments. Hopefully we can do this whilst life is getting back to normal, and lockdown becomes a thing of the past but, with Covid being so fickle, I'm still not holding my breath.

Brian, when I went to the game against Man United, when we lost in the League Cup, I had to be in the ground very early. We had staggered entry times and everyone was pleased to comply. We showed our Covid test result and in we went.

Sure, it was a much-reduced capacity, but the entry time was so early before kick-off that it should still be workable with a full crowd. With the pass being a QR code, they can stick another gizmo on the turnstile to read it and allow you swift entry as you scan your ticket.

I should also mention that there were stewards working the queues with those temperature readers and scanning your Covid test result before you actually got to present your ticket on entry. The stewards working the queues meant that any issues were sorted long before the person had to present their ticket.

Nick, how is it an experimental vaccine when governments, pharma companies, scientists and many others poured untold funds, unimaginable hours and blood sweat and tears into getting these out in amazing time? And as I work for one of those businesses I've seen what people have gone through to get this done.

If you don't know what your talking about, probably best to keep it quiet or you start looking like a bit of a pillock.

Steve,

Let's hope you are right and they can come up with something that you can scan your information onto to allow entry. As you say, when you went to the Man Utd game, there were only 2,000 allowed in and, as you say, you had to be in the ground hours before the game and everybody had an allotted time to enter the stadium.

Seeing as I didn't go to any of these games, how did they manage the exiting of the ground? Again, I can't see people wanting to get to grounds hours before kick-off.

Tony,

The infections stats that are published each day are based on the number of tests that are found to be positive. One issue might be that the number of tests that are being done has been dropping for longer than the infections. Currently tracking at -14% for the last 7 days.

It is likely to be more than one factor causing it of course. But even Trump said something along the lines of ‘if we stopped testing people we'd get no infections ‘.

But I don't think you can disregard the ongoing drop in the number of tests completely.

Brian, when Cavani scored the second, loads got up and strode to the exit. They were allowed to leave. I waited to be given the nod like a schoolboy leaving class.

If it means being allowed to go to the game, I'm sure people will attend as required. And those scanners for the covid test will probably work on the covid passport. Think that was a QR code as well. There's no social distancing now so the queues do not need to be as well managed and I doubt the entry time will need to be as strict.

Yes Chris, anything is possible although they are saying it's definitely nothing to do with us building up immunity, because the only time we have all been in the same place is for the football, or something along those lines, but it's still good news when Sage were predicting up to 100,000 new daily cases by the end of July.

It was the stewards' job to check your phone, to see you had a vaccination pass at Wembley the other week. With stewards on every turnstile, I wonder if this will be what will happen? Although Brian's suggestion seems to make a lot more sense, with so many in attendance being season ticket holders.

Patrick Vallance stated early last year that there was minimal risk at open air events including football matches. That has been repeated in the last week. From recent government trials, just 15 Covid cases recorded out of 58,000 attendees, without masks or social distancing at large scale events. Attendees were required to produce a negative test result prior to the events, and their health was tracked afterwards.

The Brit awards (0 cases), the FA cup final (0 cases), 17 days of the World Snooker Championships indoors in Sheffield (4 cases), 5,900-attendee outdoor music festival in Sefton (2 cases), incidences were still low for clubbing of 6,000 attendees over 2 nights (9 cases).

Hopefully the Covid passports chatter is just government posturing, maybe to convince younger people to get vaccinated. There doesn't seem to be any practical reason for them in relation to football. Hopefully things are kept in perspective rather than implementing something for the sake of doing it. Following the science etc etc.

Tony,

Just keep your fingers crossed mate! A lot of this is uncharted waters, even for this pandemic.

Peter #73.

Thing is that large portions of the match going experience aren't open air, they're spent in packed pubs before and after the game and packed concourses before the game and at half-time.

Dennis and Steve; the Covid pass is not time limited as it just confirms you've been vaccinated.

Fom the Gov.UK page.
The NHS App is not the same as the NHS COVID-19 app.

In the NHS App, your COVID-19 status includes a 2D barcode. The expiry date does not apply to your vaccination status. Any expiry date refers only to the barcode and will update automatically each time you go into the NHS App.

Dave;
You can request an NHS COVID Pass letter via the NHS website by calling 119 (select the ‘NHS COVID Pass service') if you do not have access to a smartphone, computer or tablet. We expect the letter to take up to 5 working days to reach you.

Yes, Bill #76, it's the code we're talking about, not the vaccination status. I don't think anybody would think that the date quoted is when their vaccination expires and that they need to then get re-vaccinated.

Start taking your mini iPad the match, Dave, you'll even be able to go on ToffeeWeb at half-time!

I will definitely keep my fingers crossed, Chris, but it just confirms what I have suspected for a long time. Following the science sounds like the most sensible advice… until you see so many disagreements amongst the scientists!

Brian (75) yes I agree but the football numbers take this into account. The analysis of the Euros still hasn't been released, let's see what that says. In the meantime I'm wondering what The Saddle will be like before the first game. Personally I'm looking forward to getting back but I appreciate that others might be nervous.

Ah the Saddle Peter.
I can almost hear the boss lady's dulcet tones.
"And where the fuck have you lot been?"

Brian, the welcome worth it for the Guinness.
Cheers

People looking forward to a bevy before and after the match is something I haven't heard on these pages since Eugene was looking for a boozer that sold food just before Christmas, and makes me begin to hope that things are finally going to begin changing for the better, and then I remember, FUCKIN BENITEZ!

Steve, it is an experimental vaccine because it has only received an EUA from the FDA. Which is a fact. It's also a fact that many of the vaccines utilise mRNA technology to make the spike protein in cells (as a scientist/investor I'm happy to explain this functionality/mode of action).

Messenger RNA technology in vaccines for human consumption is entirely new and novel and neither the FDA, WHO or any other medical body have any long term data on their use/effects. The WHO have stated that they do not believe the risk/benefit profile of the vaccines are suitable for under-18s.

Moderna (ModeRNA), the US biotech company, have been pioneering mRNA use in various therapies. Their CEO, rather scarily, calls it human software, however, many trials have been pulled (animal and human).

So if you think it's okay to force people to have this, ie, coerce them into compliance by threatening their civil liberties and human rights, you are helping to create a very dangerous precedent in society and the last time this happened, many millions died. I suggest you go and read and understand exactly what the Declaration of Helsinki is and was created for.

Let's get off this 'forcing people' language, the whole manipulated masses thing is way off. There is undoubtedly a situation wherein those choosing not to vaccinate are a health risk to those who have. Until those who won't have a BETTER PLAN IMPLEMENTABLE IMMEDIATELY we are going with what looks to be largely life-saving technology. You are free to choose your own outcome given underlying risk/reward tradeoffs but you are not entitled to simply hang around and infect the rest of us. The game is up.

Always Benitez Tony. I can accept Benitez but I can't call him by the R word.

Having to do COVID vaccination checks on the day of the game in the premier league with gates of 70,000 plus will be total chaos.

Nick, I get your point. If you have a look at my post @ 22, you will see that. However, it looks to me that your views are pretty entrenched when you dismiss Steve's fairly reasonable points using the phrase" low intelligence". I know, Steve well enough to suggest you have got that one wrong. Always two sides, Nick, no matter how right you think you are.

“ There is undoubtedly a situation wherein those choosing not to vaccinate are a health risk to those who have.”

Nonsense. You can still catch Covid and pass it on if you are vaccinated, and you can still die from Covid if you are vaccinated. And you can still die or be seriously injured from having the vaccine.

As for dismissing Steve's fairly reasonable posts, there is nothing reasonable in suggesting he shouldn't be near anyone unvaccinated, in an outdoor venue surrounded by children and young adults. Because yet again, I will repeat that once you start down this particular path you end up on very dangerous ground with a two tiered society (yellow stars anyone?). And all because the media scared you to death over a virus your >99% likely to survive but make out like it's Ebola. People have lost their minds.

Weight those outcomes Nick, don't just batch them up and act like they are of equal probability. That you can still pass it on is an artifact of mutation which is being enhanced by the ability of the virus to more actively transmit and infect in those who are not vaccinated.

Stop acting like it is some external thing being forced on us by nature or whatever at this point. The unvaccinated are helping the virus mutate which erodes everyone's protection that did get vaccinated.

Make sure you have things lined up when you cite "nonsense".

Andrew Ellams @68
Nick, how is it an experimental vaccine when governments, pharma companies, scientists and many others poured untold funds, unimaginable hours and blood sweat and tears into getting these out in amazing time.

Andrew, most vaccines take at least five years in development and have to go through clinical trials. Most other vaccines are based on attenuated viruses and generally protect the user 100% for life post immune response. Given this vaccine, based on new/novel technology was rushed through development stages and trials, it was granted an Emergency Use Authorisation by the FDA. Therefore it remains experimental and everyone taking it is part of the largest phase III clinical trial ever created (an experiment - I include my wife and mother in this). When people “volunteer” for these trials (and usually receive a payment) they do so on their own volition. Calling people selfish, as Michael Gove has done today, offering them free lap dances for a year, or simply cutting them off from society (not being allowed to attend an outdoor football match, for instance) is called coercion and was specifically outlawed under the Nuremberg Code.

The pharmaceutical companies will profit handsomely and are already doing so judging by Pfizers recent results when they predicted they would make $26bn in revenues this year alone from their Covid vaccine. All big pharma companies involved in the programme have been indemnified against risk by governments and thus have little risk in that earnings stream. You, as a taxpayer (I'm assuming) will be paying off these bills for a very long time, especially when they start pushing the boosters.

I'm not exactly sure what you do at this mystery company but I doubt it's very much to do with medical science given you know very little about the process.

You failed to tidy up back there Nick. And really, Michael Gove? Shit man.

Dale, I think you will actually find that all viruses mutate constantly. For example the common cold consists of multiple viruses (including coronaviruses) which constantly mutate and become more transmittable but less deadly…which is likely what will happen to sars-Cov-2. It has nothing to do with people being unvaccinated, in-fact it could be the exact opposite effect due to something called imprinting, which may impair the immune response and make future vaccines less useful.

And I thoroughly agree, Michael Gove is a shit man.

Thanks Nick but I don't think that was the closing to our discussion that invites another round. You simply must come up with something better to actually contribute to positive outcomes at this point. Citing some possibilities for which you have no roadmap to a solution or a counterargument to the take up of vaccines has had it's time and it is now gone.

Seriously man, the gig is up. Have some actionable facts that may contribute to successful strategies against the virus or do one. We're not interested in generalized head in sand approaches at this juncture.

And the joke there was Michael Gove suggesting anyone else is selfish.

( yellow stars anyone?)Nick, Why do you utterly fuck up a fair debating point with that piece of poison. Tip of the iceberg, slippery slope, next thing you know, night rallys, this how Nazi Germany started etc, etc. Well it fucking isn't.
Why not make your point, let it hang their and let anyone with an open mind consider it. Can't do that? Nah, too reasonable for you You're right and you know you are...

You seem to be literally retarded Nick. That is English, your home language. Complete sentences as well and you just can't manage a response. Figures.

My own personal take on the whole media coverage and government proclamations is, as with most things in society today, division.

It seems any chance these two institutions get, they look to divide the population. I mean, look on this thread. A very small sample size. On a site where all posters have a common interest. Division is created.

My own personal thoughts on vaccination are, each to their own. People should have choice, as that's the society we live in. However, choice should not be based purely on self-interest. As with anything, the choices we make should be weighted by the impact they have on other people.

As I say, each to their own, but don't let other people's agendas cause a division where we don't need one…COYB

The bible says everyone is essentially forced to take a mark and without cannot survive basically. It makes me think the world did not see it coming and ended up a type of human entrapment version of ‘checkmate.' If it was possible for the reader to see from vantage point outside this planet and observe a period over the last 20 years where there are no distractions, it might be they see something shocking. It would require putting everything to the side to do with democracy or concepts of good people. I do wonder what that would look like to the astro observer. I think in the serenity of space, that astro observer would see something frightening as though the pieces on the chessboard were being laid out in a way not noticeable to the human observer, who is too busy with life. A human version of global technocracy of the biotech version. I wonder also if those tin foil hat wearing crackpots were right all along. This is what I think when I see device called a Covid19 passport required to attend football matches in the premier League. How long will it be before they bring this portable biotech face recognition from the airport's to local places where there are large gatherings such as the Premier League.

I attended my family doctor today for my yearly check up. Thankfully every thing was ok for an 82 year old. I requested the doctor to obtain for me for an exemption from having to take the covid19 vaccine.

The reason for my request being I already have sever reactions to Penicillin and Tetanus. In fact If I was given a tetanus shot I was told by the specialist it would be fatal.

The doctor refused to even consider the request saying I have to have the vaccine shot. Yet the same doctor can write an order to have me euthanized.

I guess going to the games and travelling are out for me. Thank you society for removing my freedom. Never had the Flu never had Flu shot and most of all never had Covid 19.

Have a word with yourself John. It's just a pass to confirm you can enter public places without endangering other people. Because lots of people have died in a global pandemic and it makes sense to do what we can to stop others going the same way while we transition back to normality, whatever that now means.

Course Robert, this Covid19 is real and many people have died, are dying but the bible says this:

"He causes all to take a mark that without cannot buy or sell...number of man...666"

So I know people are dying and stuff. But this Covid19 passport is getting a bit like Logan's Run or a better version of the Orwellian 1984. We're going to have no rights before we know it. We never got Freedom Day back on 19 July, we got surveillance back. Body scanners in airports never stopped terrorists. There is now face recognition technology now in Asian airports. It feels more like a dystopian version of Tron. The human version.

Look I could be entirely off base. But when those body scanners were introduced to all the airports after 9/11. It makes you think. I used to think conspiracy theorists were taking advantage of gullible people. Now I am not so sure.

John @198... what??? Wow!!.. Do you post on football stuff? Have you a link to any of it?

John@98: The medical profession and wider scientific community did see the real possibility of a coronavirus. Only a few months prior to the outbreak in Wuhan, I finished reading a book called ‘Snowball in a Blizzard' by Steven Hatch (a practicing US doctor and researcher) in which he specifically discusses the issue including the past occurrence of SARS and MERS.

I believe that the main problem was a lack of preparedness by governments in the face of a threat that was reasonably foreseeable.

The virus SARS-COV-2 is a major hazard. The UK is a global leader in the management of nuclear, petrochemical and biological major hazards, yet in the case of SARS-COV-2 they failed to act in a proactive and timely way to avoid and prevent escalation of a threat. Instead, the UK government acted reactively to try to control and mitigate an already-escalating situation. There are established methods for avoiding and preventing escalation of such threats, but the UK government failed to use these methods, relying instead on the varying advice of consultants on SAGE and their unvalidated mathematical models.

I wrote to a Parliamentary Select Committee in April 2020 raising concerns about the makeup of SAGE and the approach being used to deal with the virus at that time. My paper was published by the Cabinet Office on their website, but has never, so far as I am aware, been acted upon, despite my attempts to pursue the issues.

I believe the entire episode has reflected a catastrophic failure of leadership by the UK and other governments.

I do post on football stuff but I can still think deep.

Oh you're in deep alright.

Stan @ 103. I haven't had my vaccine/s yet. They're experimental. I will when I have to. Just there is a European version of adverse affects and a USA equivalent. They don't make good reading. I know that odds are very low or being harmed but an hanging fire at the moment.

John@106: I've had mine, and would advise anyone to have theirs provided they have medical compatibility. The performance levels of these vaccines is a major factor in reducing the impact of the virus, and in my opinion represent a triumph of real science.

Stan, totally agree on lack of preparedness. You'll know about the UK government's Operation Cygnus in 2016, in which 900 odd people from various sectors and specialisms simulated over several days a major flu pandemic killing 400,00 in the UK.

We knew a pandemic was a distinct probability and high risk. We knew we had to prepare for it and we didn't. They did in the likes of Vietnam, Singapore etc - even the state of Kerala in India did - in terms of strategies, PPE, closing borders, lockdowns, food provisions to homes etc.

And the government tried to keep simulations like this a secret. FOI requests have revealed them.

Shocking. Criminally negligent almost.

I don't agree with the Covid passport because it is a dangerous precedent. What about influenza which in some years is nearly as bad as Covid? I have a flu jab every year but most people don't. Should those unvaccinated people be denied access to public spaces to avoid them endangering others?

Anyway, as the Covid virus mutates, we will be needing new jabs every year - so we will need a new passport every year? Government has a pretty rubbish track record with big IT projects, so I think it will end up causing more problems that it solves.

Covid isn't that virulent - over 99.5% of infected people survive, so it makes more sense for the more vulnerable people to take their own precautions to minimise risk, rather than relying on a dysfunctional passport system.

Whatever it takes to keep everyone safe.

Those who have known someone who died from this disease know to well how bad it is so why risk passing it around to someone else. The variant is even more transmissable.

So many people who couldn't care a less transmitted HIV because of their own selfishness.

John Wilson

I suspect you're a wind up merchant but taking you at face value in the mark of the beast. Presumably you have a passport, a drivers license, natural insurance card, library card etc These are all tools that control the movement and behavior of people. So why overlook those and latch onto something saying “I'm vaccinated” as the mark of the beast? The vaccine pass is the modern day inverse of the traditional leper bell only this time the lepers are the ones without bells. That apart theologically, 666 was a specific coded reference to the Emperor Nero. I don't think he's around today working on bugs in the Wuhan lab. Moreover, Revelations was one of many old style traditional Jewish style end of times prophecies that somehow ended up in the canonical Bible.

I don't agree with the covid passport.

However, if an individual establishment were to refuse entry to anyone who doesn't have a negative test or vaccination, then it's their prerogative to do so and those who refuse the vaccine do it on the notion that they might not get into some places.

Kieran, I guess most people have a passport, but without a covid passport, then your travel passport will be deemed absolutely useless, because you cannot even clear a check in desk at any international airport or seaport in this country if you cannot prove you've had both jabs. Under normal circumstances we can usually print off a boarding pass for any flights, but this has been stopped, forcing you to check in and given a boarding pass at the check in desk, even if you are not checking any luggage in. Pretty soon, to attend any sporting events, night clubs, maybe even pubs and restaurants, though these will probably be highly unlikely, you are going to need a covid passport. So unless you don't want to get a covid passport, you might as well go and live in a fucking monastery.

Bill (76), thanks Bill, I'll have a go at that, good job I'm in the “ Well over the hill mob”. This world is going to a hard job to live in a few years from now, with all the technical stuff you have to use, including texting each other, fuck that, can't people talk to each other any more,they should join monasteries, take a vow of silence and take their mobiles with them, they're a bleedin' menace, the mobiles not the monks.

Kieran, the geek word for mark is Charagma ie some type of stamp and Jesus says it will be a life or death matter in Matthew in terms of rejecting Jesus to take it. As a Christian the vaccine at first did make me think as we all get paranoid. Actually when Boris said 'many families will lose loved ones before their time,' I kid you not, thought I was never going to see family again. But there was discrimination in those who died in the most vulnerable. In that way, Covid19 was sort of exaggerated.

Ha. Greek

John

What specific verse are you referring to? Also if it was so important why wasn't it mentioned in Mark, which was used as the main source material for Matthew? Plus how do you interpret that as Covid related? As opposed to say getting a stamp on your hand when you enter a sinful nightclub?

Coupla points. Those who criticize the taking of the knee are either hard core racist or casual racists. Same thing.

It should be possible to register as vaxxed for your season ticket and get easy entry.

So looking forward to coming over from the States and attending a game with my nephew who often sends me real time video from the Park End. That's family.

Frank #99

I'm allergic to penicillin, too, but it's not a problem with the AZ jab. After the first one I had a slightly sore arm and felt a bit tired the next day (which may, or may not, have been linked). I had no reaction, whatsoever, after the second one.

Keiran I think it's mentioned in Daniel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I have no idea if Corona virus is mentioned in Revelation. Rev 13. 6 for the mark. Matthew 24 for tribulation ie the times of the mark which are also the signs close to His return.

You can't put your dog in kennels without one. Why? to stop the dog next door getting sick through no fault of their own - Same Principle.

It's the old Reagan trust and verify thing. But there's always one, one who cheats the rule, takes the piss, spoils it for everyone.

Look at Cheques, same as Passports, in days of yore, the very fact that you had a cheque book (or passport) meant something, it had your name on it, your 'good name' you could, as they say - literally, take it to the bank...
Then came cheque guarantee cards, because people...again only a few, weren't honest.
Then it had an electronic chip...trust and verify again. Now its on your phone.
Soon, so will your Covid passport, your international passport, your Season Ticket, your bus pass ffs.
It says that you are who you say you are...it shouldn't have to is true.
But; I know I'm honest, I presume and hope you're honest, I trust you, but I'd like it verified please - because there's always one who spoil it for the rest.

John

The others talk about tribulations but only “John” whoever the author actually was talks about the 666 mark of the beast. As for tribulations. Up to 50 percent of Europe's population died of the Black Death. 6 million Jews and 20 million soviets not to mention all the other nations died in WWII. Those are just two of hundreds of occasions that seem more like tribulations than the era we live in now. Sorry mate but you're trying to reverse engineer this current pandemic and vaccine onto unrelated scripture that can far more easily and also wrongly be attached to any other era in history. Going back to Matthew “No one knows the day or the hour” not David Koresh, not the Pope not Matthew himself nor the vaxers. That's the whole point of the prophecy.

Albert@118: Re taking the knee, in my opinion the main question is whether such a gesture is effective in reducing racism. The practical problem is one of reducing racism.

A potential problem with a gesture is the possibility of it giving an impression that something is actually being done practically to reduce the problem when in reality that's not the case. The appearance of a practical effect without there actually being one.

There are many gestures that fall into this category, and they can be dangerous in giving an illusion of positive action when there is no positive action. Politics is full of such illusions.

Regarding taking the knee, I'm sceptical of its effectiveness at present, given the above reality of politics.

Stan @ 123; Albert @ 118. Ref: Taking the Knee

Racism is legislated by the Equality Acts up to 2010. These Acts are European inspired, ie European law/ European Union/ Or the European Council of Europe, to protect against race, gender, disability discrimination etc. All Equality law in the UK is European influenced, based off EU Treaties etc.

Race means something related to particular group of people. Race could be colour, ie white, black, Chinese, Indian, Polish.

Taking the Knee is not about Race. Taking historical statues down from city centres is not about racism. I herein explain why. Notably racism is discriminatory treatment by a person against a protected group of whom all share the same characteristics. The law is not retro-active including the Equality Act.

A statue or a history of say black slaves is part of a black history which without the UK and the USA would not have the economies they do today. That is a fact whether good or bad is immaterial in the sense of what has been done cannot be undone. If the roles were reversed and a different race of people emigrated to countries in the 1960s which enslaved that race in the past, I as a 2nd, 3rd generation from that seed could not just pull down statues. When a person emigrates to that country it impliedly adopts its culture probably a transaction from a relatively worse quality of life for a better one in that recipient country.

Requiring white people to take the knee is not racism by any definition, in my view. It is a coupé or power grab by way of a transaction of less political capital held by those black people to simply more. It is either instigated by an extreme right wing of sections of the black people and or the politically extreme liberal left. Those political capital proponents create Groups such as Black Lives Matter, where it almost becomes as though an indoctrination that white people must Take the Knee. That is my opinion of someone who thinks like a lawyer and not a racist.

I don't want to hog this forum with my views. Stan/ Keiran @ 122/ 123 respectively, or any one else, if you want to debate these things on the live stream if available now or later, we can.

Stan,

I share your views up to a point. I felt it was becoming an empty gesture, and ineffective in causing any change.

However when you listen to the views of those like Mikey Holding, Ian Wright, and members of the England team, and others, their view is that by keeping it in the public eye, and generating debate, it is achieving what they want to achieve, and they believe in what they're doing.

So I'll go along with that I suppose, on the basis that they know a whole lot more about racism on a personal everyday basis than I ever will. The history of it is important, but I think they're possibly more interested in today and the day after.

Chris@127:

Yes, I take your point. Talking about a problem is always a start to reducing the problem. Talking is a necessary condition, but action is the real aim. Even those who have more personal experience than me, mainly black people I suppose, might complain eventually that there has been plenty of ‘talking the talk' without actually ‘walking the walk'.

Totally agree with that Stan.

The elephant in the room is the social media companies. I think it's fair to say that if they were ever going to take meaningful action they would have done by now.

They operate as platforms not publishers and are very keen to keep that status, for all sorts of legal and regulatory reasons. A newspaper, publishing the stuff on social media would have closed down by now, because they're legally responsible for what they print. Even with that, they still print a lot of rubbish.

They will only do that if they are compelled I would think, although they banned Trump so I can live in hope!

I've read that there is also a good ethical reason for them to remain as platforms, so maybe there's a middle way.

For all those agreeing to covid passports, I fear you will look back one day like an old nazi collaborator and wonder how you were so taken in.
I also think there is a strong possibility you'll be sitting in a half empty stadium this winter when most vaccinated suffer from the delta variant (see vaccine variant).
People can say they are offended as they have 'lost someone to covid', but some of us have lost people to the vaccine variant, remember there is no official way to think (yet) - we think differently and we will do it differently (i.e. natural immunity), see you next year!

Nope just looking forward to a healthy life. I genuinely hope you make it Mark.

Chris@127 Or develop and expand a problem that doesn't exist to anything like the extent that is claimed? Taking the knee was an exceptional one off act, it is a disgrace to keep it going. Taking the knee is an insult to ethnic Brits as it represents subservience and no British person should condone that in any way.

Thanks Dale, same to you.
This issue is so politicised now - my grandad told me never to mix politics with football, and I wish there was no crossover.
But but with all these f*cking clown players kneeling before zod, multitudes of fans believing the absolute horse sh*t from politicians they have spent years called liars, and now Everton about to pull the plug on my and my families support, I am devastated. Its so obviously in our faces now (just watch ukcolumn) - politics and the NWO are crushing us and the sheep continue to bleat along while the elite fanny around the world laughing at us.
I guess with rafa in at the reins it could be the perfect time to call it a day on the blues, but how the hell do I get this tattoo off my chest! :)

Every year I take a Flu jab because of my age and because I'm a part time carer for an Autistic daughter. Everybody offered a flu jab takes it. Covid is a fairly non-serious respiratory disease like Flu or even a cold, it is no worse whatever project fear says, so why not just take it? The anti-Vaxxers are correct in that given a choice you should never take an untested injection especially when there's a risk attached and, given that this magic vaccine doesn't actually give you immunity and enables you to catch the virus and pass it on (you couldn't make it up) why take it? Oh yes, you won't be able to travel internationally, go to events or perhaps even work. Totalitarian? Absolutely. Accept it? Of course we will, we are collaborators now, Lions who have become lambs and we will accept whatever we are given. I took the jabs because it reduces my risk of dying by a tiny amount and because I spend winter in Asia and I want to carry on doing that.

Martin, please explain how taking the knee is a disgrace to ethnic Brits? Because I suspect they'd think you're talking bollocks again.

Mark, while happy to share space with you supporting Everton I think it would be good for me to point out that I'm not sheep or an us in what you just replied. I do wish you good health on whatever risks you choose to take but at the point where it increases my risk we most likely will separate and I don't see much discussion in that. How it is.

And Martin your statement "Covid is a fairly non-serious respiratory disease like Flu or even a cold".

There are 150,000 dead people and their families who will also think you're talking bollocks.

Some of the stuff you have posted on here over time is beyond offensive, you're clearly a very bitter and twisted individual

Martin, what you fail to realise is that even after taking the jab, you soon won't be able to travel internationally, go to events or perhaps even 'work' - plus you have also now facilitated the systemic takeover of the country.
You are actually being groomed into slavery which will pay for your endless injections, none of which you have any idea what is in them.
It would help if people who think like you would just move to china permanently and leave us to run our country the way we always have (minus the blood drinking religious practices!)

Andrew - taking the knee is a sign of submission full stop. There is nothing empowering about it ever. Didn't you notice, racism was dead 10 years ago, now its been brought back by government sponsored fools like BLM telling people that they are somehow responsible for what happened 200 years ago. FRO!

Dale - what you think makes you safe I see as you putting yourself at risk, and vice versa. That's fair enough, time will tell who was right, but we should never stop listening to the other side as we will need each other when it all collapses. Football will be the least of our worries by next year

Jesus wept, Martin. Covid is a fairly non-serious respiratory disease for the majority but for those where it isn't, it's an absolute bastard in a way that flu could never be in anyone other than the very infirm and vulnerable. (And that's not to mention the weird long-Covid ailments that have floored perfectly healthy younger people as well.)

"...given a choice you should never take an untested injection..."

...given that this magic vaccine doesn't actually give you immunity and enables you to catch the virus and pass it on..."

The mRNA vaccines have been in development for years. They just needed a real-world test case like this to prove their efficacy in the population. They have proven to be remarkably safe – millions of people across the world have had them without adverse effects beyond expectedly mild reactions and they have demonstrably proved to be effective at giving people immunity from the strains of coronavirus that they were designed to counteract – both in terms of spreading Covid-19 and serious illness/hospitalisation.

Studies are showing that the delta variant (which cropped up afterwards) is behaving differently. The viral load is up to 1,000 times that of the previous strains and that in some cases fully-vaccinated people could conceivably pass the virus on (this hasn't be proved yet but it's a working hypothesis) and some jabbed people are being hospitalised but the number of vaccinated people dying from the disease is incredibly small.

THAT is what vaccines are supposed to do; not prevent all infections everywhere. And in this particular case, where the aim was to reduce serious illness and death so that we could return to some sort of normal life, they have proved to be very, very successful. If everyone eligible got the damned jab, the numbers would look a lot, lot better and you only have to look at the numbers in the States where it's becoming a pandemic among the unvaccinated because of how politicised the issue is and how much people are being taken in by the misinformation and propaganda that is out there.

My family got double-jabbed as soon as we could and didn't rely on any antibodies from our infection in December to carry us through the way Mr Delph thinks they should.

Andrew@137

There have not been 150,000 dead "from" Covid; the deaths "of" Covid could be as low as 10% of that. There have been no extra deaths this year compared with a typically average year without Covid so how serious is Covid compared to Flu? The answer is not at all. You may say but what if I die of it? The answer is that you are going to die anyway. Deaths from Covid are almost 100% people who are going to die soon anyway.
If I were to tell you that at 5000 positive tests a day they are likely to be 100% false positives and that 50000 positive tests a day 45000 are likely to be false positive?
Please don't just get on your high horses, think about it.

Mark, you've clearly got some sort of issue. Why don't you fuck off down what ever hole you inhabit and keep your views to yourself. If you're not under a doctor now might be a good time to start thinking about it.

Martin, you belong in a nut house mate. The drivel you post over and over again on any thread is sometimes disturbing at least.

Thanks Andrew, apology accepted.

Martin: "Deaths from Covid are almost 100% people who are going to die soon anyway."

This is bullshit. My wife's aunt was 88 but strong as an ox. We joked that she was going to outlive us all because of how robust she was. She was active, healthy and had no underlying conditions but got Covid-19 last year. The virus floored her and she was dead in less than a week.

Lyndon@140 I know exactly what I'm talking about thank you. What you need to realise is that other people have valid opinions and if that means not having a Covid jab then that is their absolute right. They are not a risk to you, you are a risk to them. Think about that.

"They are not a risk to you, you are a risk to them. Think about that."

I would love you to explain that one.

And I think the point is that you are indeed voicing an opinion that flies in the face of reported and widely accepted fact.

Martin do you even have the slightest inkling just how offensive you come across?

"racism was dead 10 years ago"

Moronic. Clueless. Exactly the sort of ignorant, smug bigotry that taking a knee is intended to address.

Mike I wouldn't bother. He's clearly a slimy little troll posting from mummy's basement for attention.

Oh Dear Lyndon, you really think that you are being given facts? I love your absolute naivety. I'd like to discuss it with you under better circumstances but you aren't talking rationally so I'll give it a miss just now. Just for info, the median age death "from" Covid is above the median age for deaths from all causes. Draw whatever conclusion from that you wish.

This topic has gone rapidly off football, I'll get my silver foil hat.

Mike@149 The exact timing is debatable but I agree with him. There is no such thing as "racism" that exceeds the general dislike that people have of each other regardless of race. Far more critical is religion and culture.

Hi Martin [132] as I understand it the 'taking the knee' is intended to show solidarity to all who suffer discrimination of any description and not just a racial issue, and although it may have lost a degree of impact I see no reason for it to be discontinued, it's not what you claim "An exceptional one off act" it's a constant problem and deserves constant attention.

HI Mark [133] your colourful description of 'Clown players,' taking the knee, and the multitude of fans believing the 'absolute crap' of politicians, leads me to think that if you carry out your threat you won't be missed. I don't understand how you can blame Everton FC for anything, it will be entirely up to you if decide to pull the plug.

Right on John Sr., I let that one go. I'm glad you didn't.

Martin, please stop making up definitions for others. We are good with the present definition of racism which is clearly a current phenomenon. Nice try but oh so weak.

JMS@154 No, it was absolutely to signify the police officer kneeling on the throat of the victim. For us Brits taking the knee is an act of subservience to, for example, the monarch or any of our "betters". There are far better ways of showing solidarity rather than taking the knee for us Brits.

I got accused of being a racist last time I contributed to one of these debates, but I think the below article sums up taking the knee quite well, written just before England's first game of the Euros

---

My prediction is that some English supporters will boo their own side even before a ball has been kicked at Wembley stadium.

The booing will be followed by another section of the crowd applauding. And that's because the England players will have taken the knee.

They will have shown their support for Black Lives Matter (BLM) and, therefore, they are against racism. So it follows logically that those who boo must be sympathetic to racism.

But there will be many in that stadium who will not boo. Nor will they applaud.

They will have been as horrified as the rest of us at the slow, agonising murder of a black man at the hands of a white policeman in the United States a year ago.

They will have perfectly good relationships with people who have skin of a different colour. Some will marry them. Some will neither notice the colour difference nor care about it. They believe that we are all the same under the skin.

So why won't they applaud the knee-takers?

I suspect that many resent being forced to prove that they are decent human beings who don't have a racist bone in their bodies. They resent having to answer the 'Are you with us or against us?' challenge. And why should they?

Quite simply because they believe the way they lead their lives answers that question for them. They want to be judged by their deeds and not their words.

There's something else, too.

They suspect that taking the knee is more about showing support for the organisation behind the gesture than it is about showing respect for people with black skin.

They do not want to support BLM, a movement with its roots in America whose founders have admitted they want to destroy capitalism and defund the police.

They reject the idea that racism is the only legitimate prism through which we should see the world. They don't like seeing statues being pulled down, buildings renamed, heroes shamed and feeling they should apologise for having a white skin.

They don't like being told: if you're with us you should applaud those who take the knee. If you're not with us you are a racist. They're pretty good at spotting virtue signalling when they see it and it makes them very uneasy.

So they don't applaud and they don't boo. Instead, they just try to get on with their lives. What makes them uneasy is what they see as extremism.

Andrew@148 No, I certainly don't so please explain.

Martin: "No, it was absolutely to signify the police officer kneeling on the throat of the victim."

No, it wasn't. The gesture of taking the knee as a symbol against racism and police brutality was popularised by Colin Kaepernick years before the murder of George Floyd.

I wish the Premier League players had adopted a unique gesture/slogan (one that perhaps reflected opposition to racism for all ethnic groups) because by adopting the taking of the knee, they have played right into the inevitable politicisation of the issue due to BLM's (the organisation) roots in the US.

But it's the gesture they chose and while I hope it doesn't continue into the new season (again, because the issue gets so bogged down in politics) I'm not going to criticise them for continuing to show support for a cause they believe in.

Kevin (157), the problem with that article is that the players aren't asking you to do anything. They're not asking the fans to kneel. They're not asking the fans to applaud them for taking the knee; I suspect all they want is not to be booed for kneeling themselves. You don't have to agree with it but there's no prerogative to voice your disagreement with it either. Just stay silent; it's over in less than 10 seconds.

Nice try Kevin but you are the one who is speculating on the reason why they don't applaud and what others think about them if they don't.

That whole thing went on inside your head. Please don't follow that up with a penultimate paragraph citing this imagination as something they were TOLD.

In the Echo today, a man of 37, if I remember his age aright, said, I wish I'd have had the jabs now, That was just before he died in hospital. He may have left a young family, or not. There was a top surgeon on the BBC Radio, at the height of the mortalities, giving his fairly knowledgeable view of what this virus can do.
He'd worked for 12 hours trying to save, amongst others, a young pregnant woman who had caught the virus. Coming off the night shift, he learnt that the young woman had died, and the baby had been lost as well.
There are teams of scientists and medical experts who have performed miracles in bringing out vaccines that can fight this virus and save many millions of people from dying or being seriously ill.
I listened to a man on a radio phone in, a couple of months back, telling the presenter, and all the listeners, that he didn't need the vaccine, he practised yoga!
It might protect him; but I think I'll go with the advice of many thousands of medical experts and scientific experts, doctors nurses and many thousands of supporting businesses, fighting this horror.

I think that the argument that there are people who were near death and the virurs killed them is probably true; but to say MOST of the deaths were among people who were going to die anyway is not correct. I think many more people would have died if not for thaction take to save them and offer vaccines to the peoples around the world.

To have a Covid passport seems to me to be a sensible idea (I've already applied for mine) which might well save many more from catching or spreading Covid.

My opinion of those who won't get the vaccine (not those who can't take it) are selfish and stupid but agree that it is their right to do so.

But they ought to take the consequences of their decision.

Anywhere you get enough attendees, contributors, or opinions, the law of averages dictates that you'll very likely get the full gamut of humanity. From the normal well adjusted person to the complete and utter whackjobs.
Isn't it great to know that ToffeeWeb is no different. 🤣

Lyndon@159 Correct but that was not when taking the knee started ahead of soccer games. We are not racist, we should reject any insinuation that we are, we should reject absolutely our National teams taking the knee.

Hi Dale [155] I generally try to avoid non football issues but in this instance I felt that I had to add my view to the proceedings. To me, discrimination of any kind is unacceptable and I'm sure that ToffeeWeb wasn't designed to have such contributions, however it would appear that the majority of subscribers to this thread, thankfully have a more liberal outlook.

Kevin (157) I agree with you.

Who is this "we", Martin? If you believe yourself to not be racist, then it's not aimed at you. It's aimed at those who harangue players with racist language from the stands and post vile, racist messages to players on social media. That still continues and, I fear, that, like a moth to a flame, the harsher the spotlight it gets, the more it's happening but the gesture of taking the knee is one of solidarity with players of colour aimed at calling out the undeniable racism that exists rather than insinuating that the entire country is racist.

Hi Lyndon [159] your reply to Kevin [157] is spot on, if anyone disagrees with the actions of the players it wouldn't hurt them to remain silent for the short period it takes to complete the gesture, the same applies to the National Anthems at international games at Wembley, I can't recall our anthem being booed at away games.

Lyndon#166.
One thing that leaps out of your post is sheer frustration.
Let it go mate, you're wasting your time honestly.
I know it's difficult but sometimes it's all you can do.

Jim
ask yourself if are you really getting the independent advice of 'many thousands of medical experts and scientific experts, doctors nurses', or are they just giving you the propaganda passed down from vested interest SIrs and professors that they're being paid to repeat, because like you they really can't be arsed to work out if it's the truth. What about the MANY THOUSANDS of doctors and scientists whose opinions you're not party to because they have been banned from appearing on the BBC, yet they continue to speak out despite it potentially ruining their careers? What have they got to gain? Only their peace of mind it would seem.
So, would you give them a chance to speak? Your life may depend on it.
www.ukcolumn.org

Martin #151,

"The median age death "from" Covid is above the median age for deaths from all causes. Draw whatever conclusion from that you wish."

How about the possibility that older people who were admitted to hospital for a non-Covid reason ended up next to people with Covid – and were then discharged with Covid to go back into closed-community care homes where it then ran rife?

The fact the players have had to take a knee in the first place is abhorrent but, if it keeps the gesture as a constant reminder to us all, that all forms of discrimination are unacceptable to the vast majority, then 10 seconds of our time before each match is the tiniest of prices to pay.

My concern is if taking the knee is suddenly withdrawn, it just might send the wrong message to the wrong people that they have won their argument.

Sad times.

No don't Lyndon. You are not wasting your time you are ensuring TW remains a good family place to visit.

Okay, maybe I overdid it there.

“Taking the knee is an insult to ethnic Brits as it represents subservience and no British person should condone that in any way.”

Can we take a straw from the ethnic Brits on ToffeeWeb – how many of you are insulted by taking the knee?

Ian Burns, spot on. The longer the players continue with the gesture, the more of these revolting racists are dragged out of the woodwork for the world to see what they are.

Now all we need is for the social media platforms to start throwing them off there too.

Brian (168), I know I have no hope of changing Martin's mind but it gets to a point sometimes where certain ideas and viewpoints have to be countered, if only to give pause for anyone who might get taken in by them.

I'm done replying on this issue. If anyone believes that this or any government or entity (even a ruthless dictatorship like China) could pull off a co-ordinated, global vaccination and propaganda campaign (to what end, I'm not sure) like this, I think they need to give their head a wobble.

I wanted to stay out of this one, but there is nothing wrong with debate.

Lyndon, your point at 166 is pertinent. The entire country is not racist. Far from it. The UK, in my opinion, is up there with the most tolerant societies in the world.

And I've been to some of the most intolerant. Try Bosnia mid 90s, the middle east & Afghanistan. It's not pleasant by our tolerant standards. Awful experiences.

But it doesn't mean that intolerance doesn't exist in our society. I prefer to use intolerance over racism as the latter makes it a single issue rather than the broader subject of prejudice and abuse. We just have high standards and rightfully so. And we should always be questioning ourselves to prevent complacency on such matters.

I was at a memorial service at the weekend for a good friend who was killed in Afghanistan allegedly defending the rights of people in the UK to exercise their rights and freedoms.

If people wish to make a gesture to raise profile to a cause they believe in, I have no issue and respect that right, whether I agree with it or not. It's been hard fought for.

Dale 160 - every word was verbatim after my first paragraph. I made no conclusion myself, but think the article sums up people's feelings well. You are not racist if you disagree with the knee gesture. I do not support it, but at the same time I respect people's opinions and wouldn't boo it. I reckon, and this is my opinion, if you spoke to the average person in England - the so called silent majority, they would have similar views to the article.

Lyndon 159 - I wholeheartedly agree with your post, the knee will never have universal support due to its association with BLM so a universally recognised anti racism gesture would be more suitable.

Kevin, I suppose I should offer an apology for not reading your post correctly and I apologize for that. But you do see my point don't you? How does the source know what people thought when they saw others not applauding the players taking a knee?

It's an absurd presumption and, with the rest of your post, the complexity of the topic makes that conclusion the article drew a preposterous one.

Jesus, some people are so desperate not to support players making a gesture that the players themselves have said is in support of anti-racism that they have to find a reason to object to the specific gesture made.

“It supports Black Lives Matter and they are Marxists” – these people parrot like they expect anyone to believe that this is the real reason they are objecting to it. Footballers earning millions of pounds a year are not Marxists – they are the very definition of free-market capitalism; it is supply and demand in action with the demand dictating the exhorbitant price they charge for the supply of their product.

Whatever gesture they chose to make in support of anti-racism, I strongly suspect that another reason would be trotted out by the same people objecting to taking the knee as to why they couldn't support that gesture either.

To each their own.

But if you're not double jabbed, keep out of the Park End!!!

The problem as I see it, is it is a gesture to Black Lives Matter, and I want nothing to do with showing support to an openly Marxist, revolutionary group. Then of course, if I or anyone else find that gesture objectionable, they assume I'm against the support that the players are making.

I'm not. I just don't like the gesture, I don't like what it stands for so I'll stay downstairs till the match starts.

I know footballers earn mega bucks, and good luck to them. I'd fully support them holding hands together before the match. But racism is a much wider topic than Black Lives Matter, so I won't support this. Nor am I a parrot expecting anyone else to believe why I do this, that's their choice. I would not boo it and I won't just sit there. I'll stay downstairs till the match starts.

I did think this topic was about the possibility of covid passports.

I thought the piece Kevin quoted above was a reasonably well-written explanation from someone about why they are anti-taking the knee. I think it should be taken at face value, rather than telling whoever wrote it that they are lying and their true motivation is racism.

I also have seen – not least in this thread – plausible explanations for why taking the knee before football matches is not a political act on behalf of the BLM movement in America, but instead has been transformed into a positive worldwide gesture of solidarity against racism. Again, there's no reason to tell people who state that, that they are liars.

My personal view is that it's a positive but slightly meaningless gesture, a bit like when people post "share if you hate cancer" memes on Facebook. I wouldn't unfollow or slag off someone who did that any more than I would boo a player taking the knee. However, a more powerful gesture from the players might be for them to refuse to play in Qatar next year.

Michael, it's not valid at face value. The writer cannot presume to know what is thought by someone he hasn't interviewed. If he interviewed them, then he should provide quotes and some minor background on the speaker. This is not provided and yet the thrust of his conclusion is presented as though they were actually told something when they were not.

It's all a prediction, says so in paragraph 2 just below the line showing where the article contribution begins.

Michael #183,

I think that's a reasonable post. However, I think the extent of racism still, and the strength with which it's often expressed, suggests for me that racism won't be diminished by just one strategy but needs effort on a wide range of fronts. Just because taking the knee might not on its own have a great impact on racism doesn't mean it can't contribute to efforts on other fronts.

This debate, which shows extremes of opinion – some informed, some ill-informed, some totally off the charts – reminds me of the Polio outbreak when I was a kid.

Untimely deaths and severe suffering from an unknown and invisible enemy causes a lot of unrest and disagreement and that is why it is the duty of leaders and scientists all over the world to come up with the truth and find solutions.

I find that leadership and unification of people is at an all-time low and the actions taken to be contradictory along the way. Should we all wear masks? Should we only wear them indoors? What is the optimum social distance? Are airplanes safe or an unsafe environment? Are the vaccines safe or even effective? Should we be on lockdown or concentrate on herd immunity?

There is so much suffering and confusion, it is logical that people have their own views and should be allowed to express them without ridicule or putdown.

They still haven't got the flu jab right because it varies every year… so why shouldn't people question a relatively new vaccine?

I had Covid last July and, on the advice of my doctor, I have held off getting vaccinated until recently because even he felt the vaccine was still in its infancy and the side effects were unknown.

I made the decision to have the vaccine on the grounds that I thought it was a risk worth taking but I totally understand those that won't get it and I also understand the concerns of those vaccinated people that suggest that the unvaccinated may be helping to prolong the disease but, at the moment, it is unproven.

I have no problem with mandates in the interests of all fellow citizens and feel it is entirely logical to have rules to keep others safe but I also believe in the right of people to refuse to get vaccinated.

I must admit I was surprised by that, Jay. Good contribution to a contentious subject. With yours and other thoughtful takes, I'm opening some space for those views I simply cannot accept as well thought out. Perhaps I can get to a place that you've been through, we'll see.

Here's a conversation I heard in my local bookmakers today. Both men over sixty.

"You just want to watch the fucking match"
I know, it's bad enough the fucking anthems, then its that fucking knee shite.
I heard it's some fucking communist shite
Did you hear about Pogba
Cunt
Overrated
Did you seem him in the Euros?
Yeah, doesn't do that for us
Arrogant fucker

Did you get the tickets?
Hey, just started. Did you see, that knee. What the fuck. Oh fuck, no, seriously. Do you think our car is safe?

Jay Harris (186), talking about ill-informed:

“They still haven't got the flu jab right because it varies every year so why shouldn't people question a relatively new vaccine?”

To put you right on that statement would involve writing at length and even then you might not get it. Suffice to say, the need for an annual, strain-targeted flu vaccine is not a reflection on the vaccine itself as you intimate.

You are right that no doctor can quell any concerns any of us may have about longer-term side effects because they have no proof (not having working time machines or crystal balls) but the majority will still advise anyone who isn't likely to have antibodies to Covid that, on the balance of probability, the best way to protect themselves and their loved ones is to take the vaccine. As Lyndon has pointed out, this is based on accumulated scientific knowledge even if it cannot be based on actual empirical data.

People refusing the vaccine does increase the risk to everyone because, the more infected there are, the greater the chance that some of them will spawn more dangerous stains of the virus. That is how evolution works, it's a numbers game – multiple versions and specific selective pressure equals better odds of something nastier than we are currently facing.

At times, the pandemic has been likened to our generation's World War. Our forebears marched off to face an enemy that would actively try to kill them; we have people who refuse to take a chance that a vaccine may cause an adverse reaction whilst millions of others do accept that risk for the common good. Am I supposed to hold them in the same high regard?

Get your jab, don't get your jab. Boo taking the knee, don't boo taking the knee.

Who gives a shit?

We've still got Iwobi to look forward to. And Liverpool's old manager in the dugout.

Boss la.

This might help a few people - I have a newish Huawei phone but it's incompatible with the NHS App and I thought I might have to buy a new phone. in case we have to show proof of vaccination at Goodison at some point. Anyway I discoverd you can get a letter from the NHS proving you have had double vaccine.
Apply online at - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/covid-pass/get-your-covid-pass-letter/

Allen#194
Just got the NHS app on my phone. The pass renews for 30 days each time I log in.
I presume the hard copy will have a 30 day limit too so those wanting to use that should double check and make sure they're within the 30 days before turning up at the game with it!

You do realise Allen that Bejiing will now be monitoring your every move through your new phone. You'll have to watch which chippies you go to!

We are told that the idea of "vaccine passports" is to assist in protecting fans, players and staff from the threat of covid infection. I have no problem with this although foresee chaos at the turnstiles. The ill informed tweet by our super fit Fabian Delph makes me wonder why it is only the fans who will need to show they have been double jabbed? As the proposal is said to be for the benefit of fans, players and staff alike, why will the requirement not extend to all three groups, in particular the players?

PS - one bonus would be that anything that would prevent Delph entering the stadium has to be a good thing!!

Agent Rodgers Brian!!

Martin. I think it's taken as a given that the three groups you mention will all have been double jabbed.
That's my take on it anyway.

Don't tell him your name Danny!

Brian#198 - I'd hope so too but it was recorded in a national newspaper (OK, the Mail!) that "several clubs in the top divisions of English football are considering making vaccination against Covid-19 a condition of employment after concerns that take up of the jab has been low amongst players". Worrying, if true.
Certainly there is no vaccination requirement of athletes taking part in the Olympics.

Will you be in the Saddle on 14th, Bri?

Martin. I agree with you like. If it's compulsory for us to attend then it should be for everyone there. Players, staff, the lot.

Disclosure. Everton fan. This is what am writing about. I am a Christian. Used to drive to ports when I was a trucker and was one of the first to use satellite navigation as I am dyslexic. Though I have a creative mind it seems. Did a Computer Systems and Analysis Design project on an Access to University course. I did a Certificate of (driver) Professional Competence course. Did my psychology and sociology course with Liverpool Hope University, and my law degree with the College of Law and Open University. These all form my controversial ideas. This is what I am writing about. We can discuss this in the currently available Live Forum, or not. I don't want to hog the ToffeeWeb space for posters.

My work: Covid19 Biotech Passport:

I discuss the Covid19 vaccine device in this chapter, known as a ‘passport.' Only those persons who have it can leave the UK, or attend football matches and music concerts etc. The Covid device currently requires 2 vaccines. The situation has caused a global awakening as millions believe life will never return to normal. Controversially, I argue that Covid device is part of a global takeover as though it could exist scenario. Revelation for instance states “He causes all…..receive a mark…that….no one may buy.” Technology called biometrics is available to make this reality such as face recognition scanners. Hence I can imagine the football stadium etc as a ‘local port' and slave humans passing it, like tagged vehicles; but restricted to only 1 of 4 world zones/Unions. Seeming obviously bizarre, I use an analogy for an observer outside the planet.

Brian @195, there is no time limit on my hard copy. It simply confirms I have had the double jab.

Allen~203.
Ah, thanks for that Allen.

I applied for my certificate to prove I have been vaccinated twice for the virus, it should come in five days, I got my season ticket this morning and then phoned Everton FC about getting into the ground when we are allowed back, the young fella on the phone said it will be the same as before the lockdown, just use the season ticket to get in, I asked him if I had to show my virus certificate, he no, it will be the way it used to be. That will do me,although I'll my certificate with me, just in case. You never know with Everton do you!!

Interestingly the lady who took my information down turned out to be a massive Leeds Unt. fan, home and away, when I told he I was an Everton fan she asked me had I heard of Charlie Whittaker as her best mate was his auntie, I told her that I had seen the lad a few times, she said “ What do think of him?” I said he's got plenty of potential but to tell her mate to tell him to stop wearing the black gloves he has on when playing for the Youth team, a roasting hot day and he wears gloves, a tough kid from Yorkshire, the gloves are just for show and to stand out, I said he has enough talent to stand out and that will get him noticed. Then we had another few minutes gabbing about football before she got down to processing the certificates, one for me and one for my wife!!

Dave @ 205, might be a good idea to take your certificate with you just in case. This has just been posted in the Echo, quoting the Independent --
<< The government has indicated that it is considering the use of the NHS Covid pass for large-scale events, having already confirmed they will be necessitated for night clubs from the end of September.
The football authorities and clubs want to ensure crowd attendance goes as smoothly as possible if any measures are brought in, so will start a trial process imminently.
Many in the game now feel vaccine passports for Premier League games are likely to eventually be mandated.
It would mean supporters wanting to attend matches must prove they have been fully vaccinated against Covid-19.
The Premier League will work closely with the clubs to support them in trials, and the view across the competition is that public health is a priority.>>

One of the things I like about TW is the 'nutters' who come on here and post about shapeshifting lizards or whatever. It's always interesting to hear a view from a different planet.

I much prefer them to the 'lecturers' who post about a million paragraphs telling us how much they know about everything, whether its football or racism or sheep-shearing, and how anyone who disagrees is an idiot.

Roger #49.

It has only appeared since people have been double jabbed.

It's a bit of a show Michael and should be appreciated as such. I hope we don't rely on TW for sources, no offence.

Michael Lynch @207:

"One of the things I like about TW is the 'nutters' who come on here and post about shapeshifting lizards or whatever. "

This respondent Mr Michael Lynch (or hereafter 'Mr Lynch') alludes that "TW attracts nutters'" and that view is nutters pertain to "'shapeshifting lizards' or whatever" to quote him verbatim. It is not known which applicant that this respondent Michael makes particular reference to as there is no third party mentioned who is alleged to have made representations to commensurate with 'shapeshifting lizards. Moreover, there is not any particular reference to any person, or of any thing of any note; ergo, Mr Lynch merely makes random hearsay statements. Where that person makes statements, he has the burden of proof by its discharge.

The respondent, Mr Lynch herein in addition regrettably uses emotional response and or non sequitur insofar as the responses are at best emotional in its nature. The hearsay statements are furthermore non sequitur as there is no sequence in events inasmuch as the commentary has presumably diverged from the point made.

This respondent Michael also does not seek reliance on any particular thing. It is though he were to demonstrate cognitive dissonance as there is no engagement with ideas which may be and or are of the controversial nature in origin. On the contrary there is apparently a split mind and if any preferences were to be had these would gravitate towards the comfort of the familiar.

We can all play the smart arse! Have an opinion by all means, Michael. It's annoying when the person/s is being to an arse by degrading others for having different views. Either show balls to debate or say nothing.

Michael#207 - I for one, saw the funny side of what to me was an obviously light hearted post, so won't be expecting you to defend yourself in a court of law!

Yeh, "lighten up Francis."

I see Stanley Unwin is at it again.

Easy now, I think what is setting it off and what is intended there is the oh shall we say feigned moral equivalence between the two sides here. Fair enough if you are only talking about the posts themselves and not the underlying beliefs with accompanying reasoning.

The clever presentation does look as though it is neglecting to make distinction between the quality of information both sides then attempt to process for knowledge. This is the point I think John is poking fun at, the obvious duplicity and attempted blurring of the substantive discussion. A long overplayed tactic.

Easy now, I think what is setting it off and what is intended there is the oh shall we say feigned moral equivalence between the two sides here. Fair enough if you are only talking about the posts themselves and not the underlying beliefs with accompanying reasoning.

The clever presentation does look as though it is neglecting to make distinction between the quality of information both sides then attempt to process for knowledge. This is the point I think John is poking fun at, the obvious duplicity and attempted blurring of the substantive discussion. A long overplayed tactic.

Easy now, I think what is setting it off and what is intended there is the oh shall we say feigned moral equivalence between the two sides here. Fair enough if you are only talking about the posts themselves and not the underlying beliefs with accompanying reasoning.

The clever presentation does look as though it is neglecting to make distinction between the quality of information both sides then attempt to process for knowledge. This is the point I think John is poking fun at, the obvious duplicity and attempted blurring of the substantive discussion. A long overplayed tactic.

John, please don't be offended by this comment but I find your posts hard to understand. I don't mean the content but the style, which might be making me misunderstand the content. Really, no offence intended, John, could well be down to me.

Dave @205. If I may, I will allow the cynic to come out in me for several minutes!

I've been compliant and followed the guidance throughout, like many. But. There's always a but right? A lot of people haven't. There is a difference between the BBC telling us what we should be doing, policy being set and that policy actually being implemented and followed.

I get it. The aim is to get the majority to comply like with anything. A bit like the drink driving law. We know we shouldn't do it as it dangers others. The vast majority comply and these days get an Uber. But you'll always have that one or two who take a chance. And the UK has generally always be a country that follows by compliance and understanding of right v wrong, not a police state.

I have been so frustrated with my observations. People who wear a mask but it's hanging off their chin. An inability or sheer ignoring of following a clearly marked one way system in a close spaced supermarket. Or and a seemingly obvious challenge in working out distance (didn't study hard enough at maths) has alarmed me.

Again, call me a cynic, but I fear this passport thing will be another token effort policy and media announcement thing that falls into the "be seen to do and say something" category. It won't be properly governed, implemented or followed.

Apologies, I mean no offence. Just my observations over the past 18 months or so. And I'm a total believer in freedom of choice and speech. But ask me to do something for the benefit of others and I will do so. Sadly, I witnessed many others not do likewise and I would wager they sit their criticising the Government and all others most evenings.

Back to Everton.

Dave @205. If I may, I will allow the cynic to come out in me for several minutes!

I've been compliant and followed the guidance throughout, like many. But. There's always a but right? A lot of people haven't. There is a difference between the BBC telling us what we should be doing, policy being set and that policy actually being implemented and followed.

I get it. The aim is to get the majority to comply like with anything. A bit like the drink driving law. We know we shouldn't do it as it dangers others. The vast majority comply and these days get an Uber. But you'll always have that one or two who take a chance. And the UK has generally always be a country that follows by compliance and understanding of right v wrong, not a police state.

I have been so frustrated with my observations. People who wear a mask but it's hanging off their chin. An inability or sheer ignoring of following a clearly marked one way system in a close spaced supermarket. Or and a seemingly obvious challenge in working out distance (didn't study hard enough at maths) has alarmed me.

Again, call me a cynic, but I fear this passport thing will be another token effort policy and media announcement thing that falls into the "be seen to do and say something" category. It won't be properly governed, implemented or followed.

Apologies, I mean no offence. Just my observations over the past 18 months or so. And I'm a total believer in freedom of choice and speech. But ask me to do something for the benefit of others and I will do so. Sadly, I witnessed many others not do likewise and I would wager they sit their criticising the Government and all others most evenings.

Back to Everton.

Sorry about that. I tried to clean up two of those and my whole setup collapsed.

Andy#218.
It's not just you mate.

Dave #205, loved your account of that conversation. I do the same thing all the time. Amazing the great talks you can have with service people on the other end of the phone if you just stray a bit off the topic for a moment. Folks who spend their lives getting yelled at on the phone are always delighted to have a bit of what you lot over there call a "chin wag" with a friendly voice.

Next time we see Whitaker play, let's check for the gloves. If he's not wearing them, you'll know your message got through!

John 202

"Did a Computer Systems and Analysis Design project on an Access to University course. I did a Certificate of (driver) Professional Competence course. Did my psychology and sociology course with Liverpool Hope University, and my law degree with the College of Law and Open University. These all form my controversial ideas."

I don't see how the various courses you mentioned have anything to do with covid or vaccines in general, much less the mark of the beast. The Xinjiang surveillance systems seem more beast like (facial recognition, emotion detecting AI, not to mention prison camps, social credit ratings etc) than the UK covid passport. I know David Cameron had allegedly an interest in beastiality but the actual beast is a different story.

John 202

"Did a Computer Systems and Analysis Design project on an Access to University course. I did a Certificate of (driver) Professional Competence course. Did my psychology and sociology course with Liverpool Hope University, and my law degree with the College of Law and Open University. These all form my controversial ideas."

I don't see how the various courses you mentioned have anything to do with covid or vaccines in general, much less the mark of the beast. The Xinjiang surveillance systems seem more beast like (facial recognition, emotion detecting AI, not to mention prison camps, social credit ratings etc) than the UK covid passport. I know David Cameron had allegedly an interest in beastiality but the actual beast is a different story.

Kieran Kinsella @ 225. That's the point, the Mark in Revelation is probably a digitalised form of biometrics. Whether that is the Chinese version or the UK Passport, it is still the same. Computer chipping people is an inevitability or by default or design. Ships, trucks, buses, coaches, trucks have GPS. Contactless payments to digital currency is also probable. These things are not the mark. I believe since God created human kind that Satan wants to counterfeit that by imprinting his own design by the Charagma mark. I think all this Hollywood-esque drama of global slavery through the system being designed around us, through a One World Government and United Nations drive for a one people one voice, is just Satan's attempt of human ownership. Those humans behind it do not know they are being deceived.

Andy and Brian respectively @ 218/ 222. No offence taken. If you could be specific what you mean about not understanding the style. I could explain perhaps.

John

"The beast forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hands or their foreheads, so that no one could buy or sell except one who had the stamped image of the beast's name or the number that stood for its name."

Forced being key here. As many on this thread have stated, they are voluntarily seeking the mark of covid vaccine. Ergo it's not of the beast

Kieran, it says causes to take the mark, it could imply secret technology, ie not forced. I do not believe the vaccine is the mark. The Greek Charagma for mark is etched or stamped and the image is Greek for something like a statue. The bible says you must overcome and the Greek for that is come through victorious and though a martyr's death. The world has no idea that we are probably in the times and what is coming to earth probably very soon. Christians think they're going to raptured out of harm they're not going anywhere going by the Greek for keep from. It implies protected but not taken to heaven. All this was prophesied in the Book of Revelation 2000 years ago. Incidentally 2000 years after he was crucified and rose again. I don't think this is a coincidence.

John Wilson

Top work fella, some of the best wind up posting I've heard for a while.

Although maybe you could explain why since I got my second jab I can pick up Radio 5 Live through my frying pan

John@228. Are we all going to die then?.

I think TW turned a sharp corner and lost me.

Paul, sooner or later we're all going to die, unless you're Paul Edgecomb (AKA Tom Hanks) from The Green Mile!!!

John. Wow. This is a lot to take on board, but it all makes perfect sense now, and your Certificate of (driver) Professional Competence certainly convinces me that you really know what you're talking about.

Do you think if all our players get the mark of Satan he would actually help us win something?
That would certainly help take the edge off any of the negative side-effects.

All the best mate.

Kieran, you seem like some sort of interpreter. You are engaging with this stuff and responding logically. Is there some sort of horse whisperer shit going on here?

Paul #230, unfortunately that outcome is one of the very few certainties in life, you will pay tax before it happens though.

Graham @ 229. If John is a wind up merchant it is way more disturbing;and way more disturbing than very disturbing is extremely disturbing.

Andy #234, I am impressed that you understand enough to know that Kieran is responding logically.

Andy #234, I am impressed that you understand enough to know that Kieran is responding logically.

Andy #234, I am impressed that you understand enough to know that Kieran is responding logically.

Mr John Wilson - when you had your second jab was it the same make of vaccine or was it the mix Graham 229 had?

Gotta love an entertaining whack job!

Graham @ 229, " Although maybe you could explain why since I got my second jab I can pick up Radio 5 Live through my frying pan "

Ah! Simple explanation Watson/Wilson, it must be the Breakfast Show. You weren't eggspecting that were you ?

Why do people always resort to ad hominem when they are confronted with challenging stuff? It is challenging every time Everton are playing at any time, so challenging should be normal.

Challenging stuff. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

John, you're quite right, there's no need for ad hominem attacks, even if in jest. So apologies for my "nutters" post.

I'm a rationalist, but I know plenty of people who, often after personal trauma, have gone down the supernatural route in various ways. Whatever gets you through night, and all that.

I haven't gone down the supernatural route. This Covid19 pandemic has shown people more than any other that they are just vulnerable human beings. Scientists/ governments are just skin and bone. If any time should cause people to be philosophical about life these times should be it when we are faced with our mortality. Never before a time as this are these time more apt, as prior to human beings took life for granted. I really thought this pandemic was going to kill millions.

I have not once stated do not get the vaccine and more to the point would not. There are problems with the vaccine such as adverse reactions in that people are dying and developing serious injuries. I have no idea how many as there ie no real transparency. I have not yet had my vaccine/s but at some point I can see that I might have to. I have never said that this vaccine is the mark in Revelation and do not believe it is at all. Disclosure: I did originally think it could have been that mark though that changed when I read the scripture in the Greek. I went back to the word Charagma and the Greek word for image. I explained what those things mean and are as above.

On the other matter, the great tribulation is one event and that event has not happened yet. There has never before been the drive for a One World Government and Never been a United Nations. Only a European Union type entity or less so, the Council of Europe has the power to take away the power (called sovereignty) from subordinat countries. I look at a country as land or many parts of it with ownership rights, and space for free individuals to occupy as citizens. There are around 295 of these countries in the world. In modern times there is no way to siphon power from countries except putting them in blocks and then siphoning power slowly or over time. The Treaty of Rome made in 1957 has the words 'determined to lay the foundations of an ever close Union. There are at least 4 of these Unions including the North American Union: USA, Canada, and Mexico. It's current form is the North American Free Trade Association ('NAFTA'). These I think will be the super zones limiting people who have that Covid passport or soon the RFID computer chip - what I think is the real precursor to the mark in Revelation. There has only been the technology to cause or force everyone to take the mark since currently. There also had never been a time throughout history and after the great tribulation Jesus will return. These things are indicative by the Sign of the Times as in the Book of Matthew. If the bible is right about this coming mark it is by default right about Jesus bring the only way, the truth and the life. The bible alludes that the coming global slavery caught mankind off guard. In that way it is implying that it is going to be done in secret but in a very clever way as people in the world will not and did not see it coming. The bible says everyone will take the mark and follow the antichrist when he comes simply because he will demonstrate what the bible call 'signs' and 'wonders.'

If you were tasked with taking over the world within the last 100 years. Would you do it any differently. For that matter, a tyranny can happen overnight. Prosecution said of former Yugoslavia genocide, we can't prosecute the whole village. So they prosecuted Milosovic for murder and not through intention normally required for murder. Ie actus Reid: unlawful killing, and mens rea: intention. Saddam Hussein was hung on live TV at the Hague, although Hussein had oil the USA wanted to buy but the Iraqi leader hated the USA. That war was a land grab to control supply of Iraqi oil and privatise it including stream lining its public welfare. This is why there is an ISIS. Libya was the same, oil rich. The raison detre is demonise the leaders for the UK and USA media. The narrative the UK news is what is in front of them. Countries are being put into a certain type of order. The USA controlled International Monetary Fund and World Bank use the laws of its controlled countries to do what they want. Law without borders.

The driver CPC course. I researched and found a document that shows links between the EU and the main hub was United Nations. Goods or 'Free Movement of Goods and Services,' as the Treaty states, go through EU type Unions through the EU but the main hub was United Nations. The last Treaty was the Treaty of Lisbon which essentially wanted to make any law it wants at any time and the 30 or so block countries have to submit to its authority. Each Treaty amends existing ones, it's now called Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union. Imagine the other 3 Unions doing the equivalent to the coupé the EU had done to its block countries. This is also some of the reasons for Br-exit. By the way I studied commercial transactions law as well as EU law. Not just driver CPC.

I also believed the pandemic would kill millions at the start but then lie after lie by all the governments acting in lockstep got red lights flashing. Six weeks to flatten the curve, just a temporary lockdown, just this, just that, just a bit more, we're nearly there, etc., all distracting us while they built up a narrative for an unproven vaccine based on mRNA (apart from the Chinese and Russian vaccines) that would be voluntary, then incrementally mandatory for healthcare workers, expanding on to other sectors and now we are at the point where Heathrow Airport is preparing to trial an ID system that holds your vaccine status along with other health and personal data, etc. It looks like a fast tracked stealth route into a Chinese-style controlled society system once we “build back better” (a phrase bandied about verbatim by leaders in every English-speaking nation, btw) or to put it in Klaus Schwab's terms, the pandemic represents and rare and unique opportunity to bring about the Great Reset where “you will own nothing and you will be happy”.

The vaccine is not the Mark of the Beast, though. My personal theory / interpretation is that the beast system in its original form (Rev 13) emerged some time after the demise of the Roman Empire and became synonymous with a new world order in Europe, at a time when kingdoms had kings with meaningful or visible rule, but all in the thrall to the 7 hilled city (Papal Rome), but in its final form it is to briefly corral a system of figurehead rulers who give their power and strength to it and receive direction from it. That final form is “scarlet” in colour (that is, doubly red), a political force that seemed vanquished and a thing of the past but which undergoes a final revival - the beast "which was, is not and yet is". Alexander Hislop, writing almost 200 years ago in The Red Republic, predicted the final form of government in western Europe (I would expand that to the West in general) would be a kind of federation of nations, no longer functioning as truly sovereign kingdoms in the historical sense, but animated by a ruthless spirit of de facto communism. And Revelation 17 says everyone whose names are not written in the book of life from before the world was made shall admire and revere the beast system in its final, ultra red, revived form.

The mark is for those who go along to get along; who willingly cave in to the demands of the beast system, to comply with its rules, its values, its mantras, thereby worshipping the beast system and perhaps also its figureheads. In the Dark Ages, the all powerful Papacy made several efforts to ban commerce to all non-Catholics in Europe (e.g. a Papal Bull from Martin V in the 1400s mandated it), but the final form of the beast system applies to the whole western world and is to be no longer ecclesiastical, but atheistic and secular. The vaccine, obviously, cannot qualify as the Mark of the Beast, at least not in its current form. However, if they make it a condition of working, trading, going to school / university / football / on holiday that one must agree to be a good compliant citizen and recite all the right words about the agenda du jour, and have a handy-dandy quantum tattoo vaccine with all the biometric ID and health, financial and all manner of data built-in, then that's more like what everyone should be afraid of. Because make no mistake, Conservative or Labour or whatever, all major parties are inherently globalist and thus closet Marxist (in the Leninist, fully developed sense of the term Marxism), and have looked at the Chinese social credit system and decided it's the way to go, with the full backing of our elites.

The forcing part of this has to do with making it impossible to live within the system without accepting or embracing the many evil things that the state mandates, as there will be refuseniks. Christians would probably have to go off-grid and lie low until it ends. The Communist Party USA, in its own literature says it means to destroy the "ultra right" which it defines as "Evangelicals", by deploying the rainbow agenda as a primary weapon against it; again, going back to Hislop writing in the mid 1800s, his interpretation of Revelation predicted that the entity that would silence the Lord's public witness at the end of the time of the Gentiles (as defined in Rev 11), would be communism and that it would do so in the name of equality and liberty for all. So I expect that within a few short years, there will be no public witness allowed anywhere for the Lord's cause, as that would be "hate speech", "terrorism" or even "a national security threat" (which happens to be Russia's present argument used to ban Evangelicals from witnessing for the Lord there, thanks to Putin's 2016 law).

Anyway... the pandemic and vaccine response has been a grand test of compliance and, so far, mostly a triumph for those pushing for a Great Reset. At some point I think they will rein it all in and blame China as a pretext for going to war, but not until they get their cashless society and social credit system off the ground. Most people will be all for it of course and will rejoice when Christians are banned from publicly worshipping Christ or from speaking out against sin. In my view, we have until 2025 before that happens. Even if you don't believe in God or the Bible, just look at the trajectory world events are on. Does anyone seriously think we're not charging headlong into the kind of near future I've just described?

The bloke on Goodison Rd with his "The End of the World is Nigh" placard was the epitome of good sense compared with some of the rubbish on this thread. At least the grammar was correct.

Wow! I seem to have entered the matrix. John Wilson/Jay Woods (Lat), unless this is a very elaborate wind up, and I don't think it is, clearly you both genuinely believe you're providing a deep level of insight that the rest of us will benefit from. Can I just ask why you've both decided ToffeeWeb is the right forum for this knowledge? Surely it deserves a much wider audience.

Get on the Lord's side Andy!

Get on the Lord's side Andy!

#253 Spot on. Finally someone talking common sense.

As someone who doesn't know his bible, could anyone who does tell us what they fed the lions on Noah's ark?

Tut tut David @259
Lion Bars is the obvious answer.

Andy McGuffog @ 254. Don't be an arse or I will revert to type and play lawyer where you will be complainant and I, respondent. Am used to doing this when I write Case Management Hearing statements and Direction Hearing statements, where the local authority barristers and solicitors read those cruel scripts, to cover up child abuse by adopters, special guardians and foster carers. Don't be a grammar Nazi or your low IQ will bore me. Ad hominem is like a child in an adult body who bullies.

My view on how I see things etc:

I have not once stated do not get the vaccine and more to the point would not. There are problems with the vaccine such as adverse reactions in that people are dying and developing serious injuries. I have no idea how many as there ie no real transparency. I have not yet had my vaccine/s but at some point I can see that I might have to. I have never said that this vaccine is the mark in Revelation and do not believe it is at all. Disclosure: I did originally think it could have been that mark though that changed when I read the scripture in the Greek. I went back to the word Charagma and the Greek word for image. I explained what those things mean and are as above.

On the other matter, the great tribulation is one event and that event has not happened yet. There has never before been the drive for a One World Government and Never been a United Nations. Only a European Union type entity or less so, the Council of Europe has the power to take away the power (called sovereignty) from subordinat countries. I look at a country as land or many parts of it with ownership rights, and space for free individuals to occupy as citizens. There are around 295 of these countries in the world. In modern times there is no way to siphon power from countries except putting them in blocks and then siphoning power slowly or over time. The Treaty of Rome made in 1957 has the words 'determined to lay the foundations of an ever close Union. There are at least 4 of these Unions including the North American Union: USA, Canada, and Mexico. It's current form is the North American Free Trade Association ('NAFTA'). These I think will be the super zones limiting people who have that Covid passport or soon the RFID computer chip - what I think is the real precursor to the mark in Revelation. There has only been the technology to cause or force everyone to take the mark since currently. There also has never been a time throughout history until after the great tribulation for that to happen, which is when Jesus will return. These things are indicative by the Sign of the Times as in the Book of Matthew. If the bible is right about this coming mark it is by default right about Jesus being the only way, the truth and the life. The bible alludes that the coming global slavery caught mankind off guard. In that way it is implying that it is going to be done in secret but in a very clever way as people in the world will not and did not see it coming. The bible says everyone will take the mark and follow the antichrist when he comes simply because he will demonstrate what the bible call 'signs' and 'wonders.'

If you were tasked with taking over the world within the last 100 years. Would you do it any differently. For that matter, a tyranny can happen overnight. Prosecution said of former Yugoslavia genocide, we can't prosecute the whole village. So they prosecuted Milosovic for murder and not through intention normally required for murder. Ie actus Reus: unlawful killing, and mens rea: intention. Saddam Hussein was hung on live TV at the Hague, although Hussein had oil the USA wanted to buy but the Iraqi leader hated the USA. That war was a land grab to control supply of Iraqi oil and privatise it including stream lining its public welfare. This is why there is an ISIS. Libya was the same, oil rich. The raison detre is demonise the leaders for the UK and USA media. The narrative the UK news is to read the script in front of them. Countries are being put into a certain type of order. The USA controlled International Monetary Fund and World Bank use the laws of its controlled countries to do what they want. Law without borders.

The driver CPC course. I researched and found a document that shows links between the EU and the main hub was United Nations. Goods or 'Free Movement of Goods and Services,' as the Treaty states, go through EU type Unions through the EU but the main hub was United Nations. The last Treaty was the Treaty of Lisbon which essentially wanted to make any law it wants at any time and the 30 or so block countries have to submit to its authority. One of the terms was its own army made up of the EU countries armies. This EU was made to supposedly stop wars in Europe by making sure each had enough trade. Then it changed to courts and law making institutions. Each Treaty amends existing ones, it's now called Treaty for the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU'). Imagine the other 3 Unions doing the equivalent to the coupé the EU had done to its block countries. This is also some of the reasons for Br-exit. By the way I studied commercial transactions and not just EU law. Not just Driver CPC therefore which is circumstantial to my abilities but incidental to constructive knowledge for what I see going on.

David #259

They had a running buffet.

From the man who invented the vaccine. DYOR

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/censored-dark-horse-podcast-bret-weinstein-robert-malone-inventor-mrna-vaccine-technology/

@ Nick Riddle: I almost never write about such things here, but since it's okay for leftist mantras to be endlessly pushed on the site I reckon it's fair to express a contrary view. Assuming none of us are more equal than others, who could object?

Go for it Jay. It's always interesting to hear the contrarian viewpoint.

@ John Wilson. Now you're just repeating yourself. Do you have this ready to copy and paste on to whichever website's comment section will have you? If so, and without wishing to come across all “grammar Nazi”, it might be worth getting the edit pencil out.

Well John. That's telling me. Though I'm not too sure what it's telling me. Are you taking me to court, or condemning me to eternal damnation?

Trying to get back to football, the ST's are being posted out for those of us who asked for a card. Mine came today in a plain white enevelope , not the usual box which used to annoy my kopite postie. Roll on two weeks tomorrow !

What a fucking ridiculous thread. Utter garbage bring spouted by one or two. WTF has the shit being written on here got to do with whether we will need to have two jabs or not to get into a football match, go clubbing or whatever? If you want to start talking about the bible, go to fucking Sunday school.

Trying to get back to football, the ST's are being posted out for those of us who asked for a card. Mine came today in a plain white enevelope , not the usual box which used to annoy my kopite postie. Roll on two weeks tomorrow !

Andy # 266. See you in court mate. I'll be a character witness for you!

Rob. Appreciate the offer. But are you prepared to stand next to me if I have to face the hell fire?

Nick Riddle, do you have to resort to ad hominem. Am dyslexic but also have a lateral thinking ability. Are you more interested in perfect grammar or independent critical thinking skills. It seems like to me your default is ad hominem instead of engagement with ideas which challenge your inherent modes of normality for which you prefer the familiar rather than confront your own cognitive dissonance. By the way I type everything on my phone in real time. Challenge what I say not how it is structured. I tend to think people who use and hominem are cognitively void or just a robot. I never said you were or are a robot. I was making a generalisation. My scores on my law degree were at least 2.1 for nearly every written assignment, similarly high scores in psychology and sociology. I pretty much took university subjects for an intellectual hobby. The way most people do crosswords, I done law etc. I don't have an ordinary brain and live in a perfect little world. Capitalism is my nemesis insofar as I cannot compete with the normal brains that this capitalist system produces. You might call this capitalist system meritocracy although I call it keeping the economy going.

I remember when we used to discuss matters such as the dearth of white dogshit these days. Or was that on WSAG ?

Andy, if that's to be your sentence, then you're on your own mate!

Andy, if that's to be your sentence, then you're on your own mate!

Hi Allen, [269] I paid for mine and my Grandsons season tickets some time ago, and nobody offered me an alternative method of receipt, what kind of card are you referring to?

Surely white dog shit was the original Mark of the Beast?

I also got my season ticket card yesterday. John Snr, it's the ST card we've had for the last few years.

John @ 276. as you will know the club have gone digital and you can now scan your phone to gain access to the ground. But there was an option to pay an extra £5 for the usual plastic ST card. I chose the old method, not because I'm a technophobe, but in case I lost/dropped/forgot my phone.

John @ 276. as you will know the club have gone digital and you can now scan your phone to gain access to the ground. But there was an option to pay an extra £5 for the usual plastic ST card. I chose the old method, not because I'm a technophobe, but in case I lost/dropped/forgot my phone.

Allen, same reasons as to why I also opted for the card, but also should I be unable to attend a game, for whatever reason, I can maybe give my ST card to a friend who can use it. You can't really give your phone to someone to get into the match.

Yeah, I paid the extra fiver for a plastic Season Ticket card. I'm as digital as the next man, but there's something about a proper season ticket. I'd prefer it if was a leatherette bound booklet, with paper vouchers for each game, and maybe a free bobble hat and rattle for anyone over the age of 50, but that's one for the next fans forum meeting I suppose.

Kieran - admit it. You're also John Wilson.

Jay Woods (lat) @ 253. By the way, you would win the post awards for what you wrote, if there were one. Amazing. Applauds. You're clearly well-grounded in religious studies and other related stuff. I comment from what I see going on with wars, with body scanners, with the legal version of terrorist: foreign and domestic. The IMF and all the countries with their own version of a digitalised system, and my analogy with the EU time Unions.

I've stopped reading the posts by John and Jay, so could someone give me the nod when it's time to repent my sins? It might take me some time, and I don't want to miss out on The Rapture, it sounds absolutely fucking brilliant.

Rob @281
I'm fairly certain that you won't be able to give your card to another person, should you be unable to attend. You would have to inform the club that you are unable to attend, and they will put your seat on sale to those on the waiting list or are Everton members. If that's not the case, how would the club be able to keep track of those attending having a valid vaccine certificate?

Hi Allen [280] thank you for your prompt reply, luckily I must have selected the correct method, because as an 83 year old who possesses a mobile phone to be used in emergencies only, I had to ask my 13 year old Granddaughter how to obtain my covid passport, and I'm dreading a malfunction of that on match days.

Some of the above recalls to mind The Secret Policeman's Ball

"Will this wind be so mighty as to lay low......."

Good point Barry. Never thought of that.

Barry, that's a good point, but I'm fairly confident that the club will work something out that allows you to transfer your digital or plastic ST to a friend rather than being forced to sell it through the club. Plus, unless I've missed something, the club haven't mentioned a requirement for a vaccine certificate yet?

I've done my research on the internet!

That's enough for me.

John Wilson. I don't believe a reasonable reader would agree that my remarks directed at you at 265 were ad hominem. I was just trying to gently point that you were repeating yourself and that to maximise the impact of something you clearly feel is important, a little editing might help.

Now back to Everton. Rafa seems to be doing a good job. Football is not God- God is God. The two should be separated. I will get my vaccine if I feel I need to get it. Not yet though. Nobody had any right to dictate that to others.

Ok Nick, fair enough. It is not easy typing on a phone though especially being dyslexic as well.

Blimey this one has really dragged the crackpots out of the woodwork

"What a fucking ridiculous thread"

Hear.. fucking hear...

The mark of the Beast, hellfire and damnation, it's all getting a bit scary for me this.
Rob Halligan I'm inviting you to come for a sail on my boat to destress and forget about all this.
Up for it?
I promise I'll stop when we get to the edge!

You're on Brian. I'll bring the Stella!

Oh, and you mean the earth really is flat? 😨😨😨

I thought we finally quashed the mark of the beast and hellfire and damnation back in February

Rob#298.
Well that theory has about as much credibility as some of the absolute shite posted on this thread so why not mate?
Oh by the way, try'n not to stare at my crew they look a bit different y'see.
Hired 'em after they landed in my garden in their craft.
Nice beings, but table manners? Phooooo!

Not this crew are they, Brian?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBRCZLzn5pM

Michael @290
You're right of course, there's been no request by the club, so far, relating to Covid passports, but the Premier League seems to indicate that its member clubs should do everything possible to do so. I'm guessing that by the first week in October, the Covid passport will be a requirement to gain entry to large gatherings. Spurs are trialling it this weekend and Arsenal are reportedly following suit.

The BBC reports that:
The Premier League wants all clubs to trial Covid-19 ticketing measures ahead of possible government-mandated passports from 1 October.

Chelsea became the first top-flight club to announce fans would need proof of being fully vaccinated or having a negative test result in order to attend games this coming season.

Tottenham will trial the same measures for their friendly at home to Arsenal on 8 August.

Arsenal are likely to follow suit.

The Gunners face Chelsea in a friendly at Emirates Stadium on Sunday.

Clubs will be allowed to run trials in pre-season friendlies or Premier League games with the season beginning on 13-15 August.

But there could be a tightening of rules by 1 October.

Rob#301.
HAHAHAHA! Very similar actually!

Ah, cheers Barry, that does sound like most clubs might be bringing it in earlier than any government-mandated date. Personally, I'm happy for it to be in place for the opening game.

If it does become an either/or vaccinated/negative test, then I guess each person will have to show evidence at the turnstile, as the negative test will have to be updated a day or two before each game. Which would mean Season Tickets could be transferred to a friend.

well over ninety percent have antibodies. all the vulnerable practically. So, no jab, no ball game. What a wonderful new era we have to look forward to. This is the thin end of a very worrying wedge. Anyone now not following the precepts of the day as decided by some twat like Matt Hancock will soon face the prospect of no social life. Wicked.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter Thompson

In this thread, the weird have gone corporate. Yowza.

John @ 287 . I think I posted earlier there is a paper copy option for the NHS Covid Pass. You can apply online at https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/covid-pass/get-your-covid-pass-letter/ ( with the aid of your grandaughter perhaps ) You will need your NHS number which can be found on any letter from your GP or NHS. It will come in a few days.
I got a paper copy myself as my phone is incompatible with the app.

Jay (Lat),

This muppet Hislop must have had the sixth sense with his prediction of a federated Europe some 200 years ago as that was EXACTLY what established powers like Austria publicly feared would happen if Prussia made a federation of German states.

Sadly for him and luckily for us that particular plan of “the beast” unraveled in 1945. Just like the atheistic commie master plan and super state unraveled in 1991. Now former “commie states” like Poland and Hungary are passing pro-religious laws. The majority of Russians even claim to be nominally Christian so it seems like the beast is pretty incompetent.

The real issue though isn't the beast but people like yourself who fall for open-ended conspiracy theories. Any time you're proven wrong (eg, Rome falls, eg, The Reformation) you say “Oh well… the bad guys have switched sides, no longer driving the Pope, now they're behind the atheists… oh wait, now it's the capitalists" and so on. All of which suggests a conspiracy theory that is so entrenched and unstoppable that you must realize if it were true, there's not a damn thing you can do about it. So why even worry?

Kevin,

They could make accommodations for anti-vaxxers to have a social life. For one, they could give them bells so vaccinated people can flee when they come to town. Or they could set up some kind of special colony for anti-vaxxers to live together free of judgement and at liberty to spread pestilence.

Forgive my curiosity but what do those who believe in their freedom to be unvaccinated think about greenstreaming or dropping a deuce in the public pool? Are people free to do what they want there or is there some reason to expect and possibly enforce some code of behavior?

Before we mandate teenagers who have already given up so much for a virus which poses no threat to them to take a new vaccine on pain of losing every pleasure in life, does anyone have a clue what are the chances somebody who is double vaxxed dying from Covid in a population where well over 90% have antibodies? Average mortality rate is 83, remember. It surely must be many thousands to one. Especially at an open-air event like football.

So, is it proportionate? And what are the implications going forward?

When flu is found to be a bigger killer over the next 12 months, must you also take the flu jab before you can get a pizza? And so then we're on the merry-go-round, and round and round we go. The potential then for government to control its population goes up by a thousand percent. All the while, Florida and Texas outlaw them, and have the same death rate, so who's the mug.