Rooney: 'I was devastated' to leave Everton in 2004

Eye-popping insight into what truly went on at the time of his transfer to Manchester United.

Jay,

Incredible insight into the Rooney transfer saga, most of us realised that the club had to sell Wayne in order to survive, but if what Wayne has said in this clip is accurate, the timeline we fans were fed was a pack of lies.

I'm absolutely speechless at that Wayne Rooney interview. The stick Kenwright let that lad take for 20 years???

I see now why certain people are enraged by him, he just tells and gets away with bare-faced lies.

Couple of things I noticed in the Rooney conversation with Bellew.

Rooney says that he was being touted to other team but he also says he would have wanted to leave at some point anyway, in search of trophies.

He also says Everton wanted to sell him to Chelsea as they were offering more money; but he said he didn't want to go to Chelsea / London, only to United; so Everton, he says, made him put in a transfer request. What would Everton have done if he hadn't put in that transfer request? Not sold him? In which case, Rooney would have been satisfied as he didn't want to move?

The Rooney thread probably does potentially warrant a separate discussion. Given that Bellew is as straight talking as they come and Rooney, equally so now he is willing to open up, it shows us probably what we've always known.

These young players don't have control over their own destiny. They are treated as assets and commodities. So, if what we are hearing from Wayne is true, then fair credit to him for standing his ground in not going to Chelsea.

Basically, you can sell me, but it will be to where I want to go to, not where you get the most money.

I always thought the best deal Everton could have got would have been to get him signed on a new contract (which if we take him for his word in this interview, he would have been willing to sign). And keep him for another season. Which, again, if we take him at his word, the young 16 year old Everton supporting Croxteth home-boy would have been open to.

Then when he moved, we'd have been in a much better bargaining position. To Liverpool and Chelsea's model some of us have discussed.

Panic selling by the club and agent manipulation. That's what this smacks of. And all the time, they gave the perception to the fans it was a 16 year old kid's decision. Bollocks. I'm catholic and don't swear often.

Danny - don't worry about other club's models - as our Chairman told us, other club's look to Everton when making big decisions.

I've spent twenty years without being able to bear the sight of Rooney, precisely because of the manner of his leaving. I now find out it's all a pack of lies, spread around by Everton's owner.
Marvellous.

Brent,

I think the point is that, while Rooney did want to stay, everything – including his attitude – changed once he realised the club was trying to cash in, so at that point the die was cast.

It suited the club to put "the blame" on Rooney at the time but surely you'd have to be a bit naive to just believe what was said at the time.

I suppose people can be though, just as lots were with regard to Gary Speed's departure.

Kevin,

He's the biggest liar this club has ever known. A true politician. He basically thinks that without him, the club would fold. He's unbelievable.

Brian @ 156. Agreed.

Said at the time anyone putting his transfer entirely on Rooney was being totally naive. A raw 18-year-old from Crocky being the puppet-master around the likes of Fergy, our own teary one and his proven (in court) liar of an agent?

Cummon. Seriously..?

Plenty of whispers coming out of the club at the time about the true course of events. This is the first time I have heard them so explicitly laid out by the player himself.

'We won't sell him, not even for £50 million.'
'I want to make Wayne club captain.'
'We will make Wayne our highest paid player in the club's history.'

We were deliberately lied to and misled by the club and they were happy to portray Wayne as the villain in the piece, claiming he forced through a transfer which he clearly didn't want to make at that time.

I've always believed that the sale of Wayne Rooney guaranteed the financial safety of Everton FC for a few seasons, that's why I never ever berated the young lad for going.

Keeping him for another season was a much better option, where Everton that desperate to sell him? Looked like it then, even more so now.

Jay,

If I remember the events clearly, the first bid for Rooney came from Newcastle, was it Shepherd? A mate of Kenwright, and that the odious Stretford, then employed by an Agency, had offices at St.James's Park.

The bid was widely construed as ”a stalking horse” which flushed out Fergie, and events unfolded.

This was before Stretford devoted his life to making the Rooney family his meal ticket, which was also covered in the trial, as was the involvement of King Kenny and other dubious characters.

I think I got into a debate about it with Colm Kavanagh, once of this parish.

Yes it was, Chris.

And even without knowing the details we now do, at the time I thought it was a contrivance, a bit 'too pat' as a means to flush out the interest from United.

Ferguson was quoted as saying they were happy to leave it for another year before making a move for Everton, but the Newcastle 'interest' forced their hand.

Stretford, King Kenny and some grizzly gangsters.

Sounds like the Crocky Crew equivalent of the Kray Brothers.

Obnoxious individual.

Indeed, Jay. The whole sequence of events, even as we knew them at the time, stunk of dodgy dealings. It was clear back then that Wayne, like so many young footballers, was not the true master of his own destiny.

Jay,
"Obnoxious individual".

I presume youre talking about Kenwright. LOL

Not only did he sell Rooney but also mortgaged Goodison Park, sold Bellfield and Netherton training grounds and sold off any other assets he could lay his murky hands on.

To think if Paul Gregg had funded King's Dock and we sold the club to the Arabs we would not have had almost 30 years of mediocrity all because Boys Pen Bill wanted to hang on to his trainset.

What is the problem? Everton were prepared to sell Rooney to the highest offer, the boy did not want to leave but, if he did, he wanted to go to Man Utd. The only way he could do that was to put in a transfer request... and he did. The club who wanted money sold him for less than they could have got from Chelsea to please him.

There has always been false rumors about what went on at that time, mainly about the sleazebag of an agent. Rooney has admitted he would have gone later but was happy where he was; unfortunately, clubs are not interested in happiness – they are only interested in finance for the club.

What's the problem, Bill?

'Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay
My, oh, my, what a wonderful day
Plenty of sunshine headin' my way
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay!
Mister Bluebird's on my shoulder
It's the truth, it's "actch'll"
Everything is "satisfactch'll"

A helluva lot of this is 'a problem', Bill, worthy of discussion.

Sounds like pure soap opera, I might add, especially the tears to Alex Ferguson!

Jay, I wonder what Everton planned to do had Rooney refused to put in the transfer request (and did he request a transfer to Man Utd? or just a transfer?). And I wonder why they wanted him to put in that request but hadn't needed him to put in a request for a move to Chelsea?

Jay,

Rooney was the sacrificial lamb at the time. Kenwright deliberately said Newcastle offered big money so Man Utd upped their price.

He sold off anything that moved, he ran the club into the ground, and the Rooney money probably stopped us from going into administration.

Brian,

Like most, I always knew Kenwright was completely out of his depth. I always knew he would do and say anything to protect his trainset. But, for me, you have exposed his greatest crimes.

He should have stepped in and told the world the truth about Gary Speed but, by remaining silent, he hung him out to dry.

His "They've taken our boy, mum" shite always made me feel a little queasy. Hearing Rooney's version makes me want to throw up.

Fuck him. Total Kelly Maloney.

Disappointingly, the board turns again to fact free gossip just when the Toffee book of myth had started to become a pamphlet.

Saw this video earlier and then reminded myself about what Kenwright said at the time.

Not inclined to believe either fully but it at least makes me reconsider my thoughts on Rooney.

Rooney's obviously been paid a bit of money to say something controversial to tarnish the reputation of the club after failing to live up to expectations twice. It's common knowledge that Ferguson had Kenwright in tears over the transfer as he was set to make him the best paid player in the club's history.

File this under bullshit.

I'd file a lot of things under that, Kevin, and the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think you might be right.

How could anyone who professes to be a great Evertonian, want to sell the greatest talent Everton Football Club have ever produced? It just doesn't make sense at all!

Wasn't helped by the fact him and Moyes didn't get on but, yes, he had to be sold – the banks really were knocking on the door at that time.

Bill Kenwright. Wayne Rooney. Two of the most upstanding, trustworthy individuals. Now, who to believe?

I don't doubt it for a second, but I can't imagine that Wayne was devastated… we were a shite team and he had bigger plans for himself.

Up until the Moshiri money arrived, it had been our ‘business model' (if you can describe it that way) for many years to sell off our best players, especially the young players with potential, seeing as they'd fetch the biggest transfer fees. The little money Kenwright had was thrown into the youth setup and it generated enough to prevent us going under.

These days, the money is still a problem, but more in the sense that it has been thrown around willy-nilly on weak players. Neither Rooney nor Kenwright are very high up on my list of great Evertonians!

Brent, put me down for Rooney, he's not in Kenwright's class when it comes to telling porkies.

Interesting idea, Kevin, is Wayne short of a bob or two?

Dave #7 - a short head between them?

Dennis #8 - didn't Wayne come out about a gambling addiction. He might be down to his last million. And if Coleen loses her court case... (is that still going??).

After a fine win, it is a shame we have to bring up the whole Gary Speed thing

Brian Harrison, Darren Hind, why is there this obsession with exposing the "truth" about what went on with Gary Speed just to expose Kenwright?

People seems to have a whole lot of guilt because he took his own life many years later and people chose to give him abuse whenever he returned to play because they were ignorant as to what went on.

Without doubt Gary Speed was a top man and a PL legend. However, as an Evertonian to me, he was just another player who passed through following a short spell at the club. I was sad when he went as he could have been a force for years. He also chose to be dignified and not make the details public so even more credit to him.

Seems people are more interested in denigrating a true club legend in Howard Kendall, who I am confident we will never see the type of success and joy he brought as a player and manager during my lifetime.

Whatever the ins and outs of Kendall's alleged off field issues he was set up to fail by Peter Johnson when he had got himself back on his feet at Sheff Utd and was doing well. He came back to the club he loved when he should have stayed put.

Whatever demons Kendall had pale into comparison with the ones that led Speed to such a tragic end.

Speed chose to protect the club. Maybe Kenwright chose to do the same and protect a club legend as no one could foresee what would happen 14 yrs later. I will criticise him for many things, but not for that.

Brent, a short head? I make Kenwright about nine or ten fences ahead!!

Duncan,

Can you perhaps elaborate on this a little: "The little money Kenwright had was thrown into the youth setup and it generated enough to prevent us going under."

That statement raises many questions. Firstly, Kenwright only bought shares... possibly with his own money; possibly with borrowed money. Never ever heard that he put money into the youth setup.

You imply (by posting on this thread) that Rooney came through the youth set-up and made money for Everton as a result of Kenwright's investment. I'm pretty sure it was just pure luck that Rooney came through when he did. And that he was saleable for £30M — not the £50M Kenwright famously lied about.

And what gives you the balls to call Rooney, a born and bred Evertonian, a liar for saying he was devastated to leave the club? When it comes to someone telling me about their personal feelings, I think I'm tempted to believe them rather than you, for some reason.

Dave, Rooney still crosses the line!

Filed under utter bollocks.

Brent,

No, he pulled up with a circuit to go, realised he was outclassed in the Tom Pepper Stakes.

Haha! You're clearly a racing man, Dave.

Did he pull up with a lame excuse perhaps?

“To be honest, I would have left at some point — of course, I would have to better myself and go and win trophies…”

Not the words of a true blue for me.

A proper Evertonian would have said: I would never leave this club as no other club could ever or will ever mean anything to me. I would sweat blood and tears to better myself to win trophies at Everton.

Perhaps he was just being a "realistic" Evertonian, Chris.

One player doesn't make a team and we didn't have the money to build a team. We didn't have the money to build shed!

You just have to compare the trophies he won from the time he left to the trophies we won from the time we left.

Making the best English player in a generation stay at a club with no hope of matching his ambitions is not only unrealistic – it's parochial in the extreme. You can't expect any players to have the same outlook as supporters, it just doesn't work like that, and hasn't for a very long time.

Brent,

No excuses, he just didn't realise that Kenwright was riding a Cheltenham Gold Cup horse under an assumed name racing a handicap-rated horse.

Dave, you're on fire tonight!

As I said, the club needed money, Rooney was a salable asset who, as he says, had heard certain people were going to other clubs.

My question is why didn't he go to Chelsea who offered more money? Did the club let him go to Manchester as that is where he wanted to, go for less money? And now he is saying he expected to leave later but wanted to stay. There was (and I am just guessing) more money involved in the transfer to the individual rather than the actual transfer fee.

I don't care how much players earn, the problem at that time was Everton needed the money and his transfer was a way to get some.

Rooney sounds like the guy who is devasted that his first marriage didn't work out but is thankful that his second marriage to the French bird, twenty years his junior, whom he originally employed as an au-pair, at least gave him another shot at happiness.

Always feel for guys like that... what's for supper Nicole?

MK - I'm hardly bigging up Blue Bill, quite the opposite. But during his spell as the main shareholder, the young players were far more saleable assets than we have had since Moneybags Moshiri arrived, and it was common knowledge at the time that Everton invested in the youth setup in a big way compared to other clubs – surely you haven't forgotten? Big money transfers for Jeffers, Rodwell, Rooney, Stones.

And as for calling Rooney a “liar”… you've fabricated that entirely! I'm simply saying that I don't think he was as hurt as he says… let's not forget, he was telling this story to a die-hard Evertonian – I think most of us would bend the truth to appease a hard-as-nails blue nose like Tony Bellew!

A point I forgot to make. What's the average length of time for a Premier League career?

These players don't have a lifetime to win what they want to. Elite players, like Rooney, have a limited time to win trophies and have to go for it when they can.

Clubs have, well so far for us, 143 years.

Playing devils advocate but it was widely reported that Trevor Birch resigned after suggesting Everton sell Rooney to stay solvent. Perhaps in his role at the club he put the feelers out? Then Rooney gets wind of it and is unsettled, Kenshite realizes Birch is right and it all unravels?

Can everyone please look for the cancer research thread and read it.

I'm not at all surprised at Rooney's comments in his interview, and although some of the edges of raw truth may have been rounded off by time and memory, the underlying facts are he was always going to be sold and the storyline given out to the supporters at the time was merely a theatrical script.

But of course the bullshit fed to the paying public could never paint the real story, or cover the blatant truth that Rooney never had a choice in the matter; his reaction was anger, disappointment, shock – much like supporters.

But then we were told it was all driven by Rooney, or by Alex Ferguson, by agents, by anyone but no-one must ever know the truth of the man who said he wouldn't sell him for £50M... that would ruin the story, the myth, the reputation of such a man.

Interesting. Basically, if we hadn't sold Rooney, Kenwright would have had to sell his train set. Because if I remember rightly, we had got to a point where the banks would no longer lend any money to Everton. By selling Rooney and signing just Marcus Bent and Tim Cahill, Kenwright could swell the coffers and keep control.

We sold off a lot of young talent back then. Not just Rooney and Speed, but also Barmby, Jeffers, Ball, Lescott etc all left with utterances from Blue Bill of how they all wanted to leave. It was obviously a tactic used at the time so that the club could avoid criticism - but what a shameful way to run a football club.

When you add this information to the lies that were told for Kenwright to take us to a cow shed in Kirkby - remember that Goodison was not going to get it's fire safety licence renewed?! - we shouldn't be surprised. Remember the 24/7 search for a new owner?! It took maybe 15 years. Every other PL club had had investment except Everton, yet we were somehow unsellable. Very fishy also.

It's a murky world that Rooney has just shed light on. He's not exactly blameless either though. Remember him putting in a transfer request to get a new contract at United? I'd say him and Kenwright are as bad as each other…

Duncan,

Okay, you said "The little money Kenwright had was thrown into the youth setup..." Seems you've changed that to "The little money the club had was thrown into the youth setup." Rather a different thing altogether. But still probably misleading, I suspect.

Yes, we made money on some academy players coming through; but I doubt that the cause and effect linkage from youth investment was a simple as you seem to be suggesting. We probably haven't stopped investing in youth, probably increased every year, but we haven't seen anything like the returns in recent years.

I believe it's down basically to our luck if we get a player coming through that can be sold on. It says a lot more about the club that we have so often sold such players on, rather than building a team around them, Rooney being the prime example.

He says he was devastated. As an Evertonian born and bred, he would be devastated.

But no, he's obviously been paid a bit of money to say something controversial to tarnish the reputation of the club... What? How do people come up with this nonsense?

Barry Hesketh @ 2; Everton in - 'Fans fed pack of lies Shocker'...you sound surprised.
We all knew there was much more and now 'It'...well one side of it, we'll leave how agents got involved (if they really did, eh, Bill?) for later... comes out.

Kevin Malloy @ 3; Well said, I wonder what Kenwright's version is?

This will deffo become...'Some people's recollections of events may vary.'

“Nothing has to be true forever. Just for long enough.”

Derek, well said but nonetheless, the truth depends on who tells it. Agents, managers or the actual person concerned. Their "version" of the truth depends on the motive of the person telling it (be it Kenwright or Rooney).

Facts or truth are not absolute, they are never complete, even to the individuals concerned, but they are not Martin's myths either. Observers such as us can only piece together such facts for as complete a version of truth as we are ever likely to get.

It's how the justice system works.There is no absolute truth told second-hand, basic facts can be held as true, but additional fact appears over time (a bit like DNA cases); however, we make judgement calls based on what we know as truths. It's why we have a jury system in our courts.

Long way of saying that the window dressing of Kenwright hid the fact that he had decided to sell Rooney, but had to make it look good... Make your own judgement on why, but mine was it was done to cover his backside from bad comments. As the facts come out, so are the motives and the window dressings are blown away.

Christine, the quote was by a literary giant of the late 20th century. Terry Pratchett... If you're going to pinch, pinch from the best I say.

Like this one – "The Truth is seldom pure and never simple" is from another literary giant of the early 20th century... iirc, it involves handbags or some such thing.

Chris Corn,

I think you are wrong on several levels. Those who knew the situation would never have abused Gary Speed in the first place... Why would they feel any guilt?

Nobody mentioned Howard Kendall (except you) so how do you draw the conclusion that people are trying to denigrate him?

You will be hard pushed to find a post anywhere linking Bill Kenwright to Gary Speed, so I don't think the "obsession" you speak about exists either..

You clearly know the facts surrounding Speed's departure so the truth you say others want to expose is already out there. Gary Speed was blue to the core. Yet he was abused for years by people who didn't know what you know. There are no circumstances under which that can be right.

You are correct when you say Speed chose to protect the club. What a pity Kenwright couldn't afford him the same courtesy. He didn't need to wash the club's dirty laundry in public, but he stood by for years hearing the abuse Speed got every time he returned. He could have found the words, but he chose not to.

I agree with you that nobody could have known what demons would visit Speed all those years later, but guilt? Na... just a sadness that some Evertonians still believe he betrayed them.

BTW Chris; I think you got your Brians mixed up.

MK - pedantic, but I get your point about whether it was Kenwright or Everton spending the money on the youth setup. One thing I'm sure of is that it was his decision to spend the club's money that way. It was his only strategy for keeping the club afloat whilst not letting go of the reins – selfish and not in the best interests of the club.

And we are in complete agreement that it was disgusting to sell our brightest prospects rather than build a team around them. Finally, regarding the idea that Rooney has been paid to say something controversial – it wasn't me ref! I didn't say anything of the sort – read through the comments and dish out a yellow card to whoever did.

Kenwright is, as stated above, a politician at heart... but, if you think Our Wayne is that honest, ask Mrs Rooney.

I wonder if, in years to come, we'll be having the same debate about James? iem the Club were happy to stand by and let him take all the flak?

It was as clear as water to me, at the time, that it was Kenwright who was pushing the lad out to “save the club” from financial ruin. Financial ruin that he with his fat-arsed incompetency was overseeing.

Wayne was/is a Blue through and through and was made the villain by the luvvy gobshite and his ginger puppet to shield themselves from the fan backlash. The pair of them deserve to be excoriated and expunged from Everton's records.

I think Rooney has been clever with his words.

“I was getting touted to other clubs.”
“I was getting pushed to go to Chelsea.”

He never actually says who.

Don't forget, this was a few months after he signed a deal with his new agent “Mr 20% Paul Stretford” with whom every fan at the time predicted that this would end up with Rooney leaving the club.

Was it Everton or Stretford touting him? And was it Everton or Stretford pushing for the Chelsea move since they would both earn more money from it?

I would hazard a guess that Stretford put the feelers out, as agents do to earn money, but Everton didn't exactly try to block it as they needed the money.

Kevin,

I think we have to give Wayne Rooney a bit of credit. On such a fundamental point, I think he would have satisfied himself that the club wanted him out rather than just taking his agent's word for it.

This is a not a pleasant story to read. I'm hoping that the “I would have gone anyway” comment was actually a known fact at the time, as that *may* have justified the treatment a little. However, even then, the boy was 18, for fuck's sake. He needed some love and support, not treating like meat.

Don't even see the sense of this kind of treatments with the current unfit prima-donna who'd rather be in Ibiza than getting fit enough to last 90 mins. To a young, local blue, it was just wrong – no matter how much debt we were in, thanks to Bill.

Funny how he does not mention his agent, the dubious Paul Stretford, in all this, or his articles for the septic Sun toilet roll or his nocturnal visits to grannypornworld? Am I too cynical?

Football is big business. If a business is in trouble with no money, you raise it by selling your most marketable asset. It was well known back then that we were skint and whether Rooney was 18, 19 or 20, he knew just as the fans did that he would end up being sold.

The move of getting him to request a transfer to save the club from paying out loyalty bonuses is tried and tested and Rooney didn't do too badly out of it all, did he? Portraying the move as one forced by the player was obviously a ploy to avoid a fan riot but again, this is big business – not a warm and cuddly environment where everyone is nice to each other. Football is cut-throat and there are plenty of far worse stories out there.

The club survived, the player thrived and made a fortune for himself while taking delight in displaying unpleasant traits of his personality when playing against us. At that time, he was far too good a player for us and his sale would have happened around that time or a year later regardless of how skint we were.

Reality is that Kenwright could have been perfectly open about the need to sell Rooney that summer and events would have provided him right. The money stabilised the club financially and wise squad investment led to a run to the Champions League.

But his pathological lying to avoid blame being assigned to him and his willingness to watch as other parties carried the blame for decisions he was party to shows him as the shallow charlatan that he is.

The ever reliable Richard Keys (yes I know!) wrote the following in his blog:

In my part of the world it's not a surprise to hear that someone is hawking a football club about looking for money. On the day I arrived here - eight years ago - I bumped into a mate, in a bar, who was looking to construct a deal to sell Man Utd - not that he had a mandate to! I've heard Liverpool mentioned - in fact - you name a club and there's an accompanying story of someone trying to sell it. Few are ever true. There's lots of sellers - but no takers.

But my ears did prick up recently when a friend of mine told me he'd been offered Everton. The price - £500m and a guarantee of £500m to finish Bramley Dock. The figures seemed realistic so I asked a few questions. My conclusion was that it was a bonafide offer. It was turned down - but it suggests that the current owners of Everton want out. Whether that's good news or not I don't know. Of course, a denial is only to be expected - but whatever the truth, I can't see Benitez getting the same flow of money that he's generally had elsewhere. It's back to the future for Everton - to the days when David Moyes worked miracles year after year. I wonder if Benitez has got the stomach for a frugal ‘long term' project?

Richard Keys

I can't see it being true, but like most things surrounding football clubs and finance, we won't find out until any documents are signed.

Please look for and find, and read Derek Knox's cancer appeal thread.

I wouldn't believe a word Rooney says. How many times has he cheated on his wife?

So because he cheated on his wife nothing he ever says can be trusted?

That's a bit silly, to be honest.

I always find it strange when people bring things up from years ago. What's the point?

'I always find it strange when people bring things up from years ago. What's the point?'

And yet you've just done exactly that, applying some very wobbly 'logic' which has little or nothing to do with Rooney's interview.

To quote someone of this parish:

'What's the point?'

How precious Richard Keys is.

In his line of work, he gets to hear all sorts of malarkey about people without the mandate to do so touting the sale of clubs. 'Few are ever true', he says.

But, when he hears a similar Chinese Whisper about Everton, he concludes it was a bonafide offer and a clear signal that the current owner wants out.

Investigative journalism at its finest, eh what?

At the time, I thought Rooney was sold to cash in. I did not take heed of any other reports. I accepted the cub line. Rooney, like anyone, would realise that he was going to be sold, no matter what, and his advisors made sure he understood that.

Kenwright was just out to line his pockets via Everton and the club's progress was very much a secondary consideration, as it has been ever since. Moyes is not blameless either, securing himself a long tenure being part of Kenwright's big bluff. . . "The People's Club".

I admit I was really taken in by Kenwright's "local boyhood fan" lark. But it started to really wear thin over the years, as he obviously was getting out of the club what he could and doing everything possible to keep the rip-off going.

Rooney obviously wanted to stay at Everton, but was left with no choice. I do think he still resents Kenwright and Moyes even now. After joining Man Utd, he had to pay compensation, £250, 000 from memory, for something he wrote about Moyes.

When he rejoined Everton, Rooney had no qualms about taking advantage of Kenwright the idiot, now with access to money, to extend his career earnings. He probably realised little had changed since he first left. Why not? – after what Kenwright had done to him and Everton.

At least he didn't try to get on the Everton gravy train and had the guts to learn his trade as a manager in the lower divisions.

Good Luck to him.

Paul @76,

The point is that this thread is very relevant with Kenwright still in place as Chairman.

Given the situation at the time, then I think most businessmen would have looked to sell Rooney.

A businessman with a career in acting, who said he wouldn't sell Rooney for £50 million, but ended up crying stage-managed tears to Alex Ferguson, just played another blinder.

My own view is that Kenwright had two choices, and chose to sell the greatest player Everton have ever produced, rather than sell the club he professes to love, although at least he helped turn us into "plucky little Everton" when things could have been so much worse!

Finally, It makes me want to vomit when I hear statements like "Wayne Rooney saved Everton" because, after hearing what's been said, this is just simply not one bit true.

Ian @80.

Bill is nothing more than a figurehead; he has no say at all. But that doesn't stop people blaiming him for everything that goes wrong.

Paul @82,

It may well be the case that Mr Kenwright is merely a figurehead and wields no power, but I'd prefer an active Chairman, who... you know, steers the club on a day-to-day basis.

There's nothing to stop him from becoming a life-president as Sir Phillip Carter did and somebody else taking the position of Chairman of Everton Football Club.

Paul,

How do you know Kenwright is only a figurehead?

There was a piece last year on the Rooney transfer. It's along the same lines but it also includes details on how he might have had a year at Newcastle Utd before joining Manchester Utd:

Wayne Rooney reveals cash-strapped Everton pushed him to move to Chelsea in 2004 because they were offering the most money... but he chose Manchester United because it was the 'only club' for him

Chris @81.

Who in there right mind would spend hundreds of millions on a business, and let the previous owner still have a say in how it's run?

I don't know the full truth of this matter or if anyone is capable of telling it but I do know that the true losers are us, the fans, and every time I see some article or TV programme about the great goals Rooney scored, not to mention his scoring records for Man Utd and England, with the odd one for Everton, I cringe almost to tears at the thought of what not only could but should have been.

I like to think of myself and others on here as true, unchangeable through thick and thin Evertonians despite occasional disagreements, but I find it difficult to put the two main characters in this shenanigan into that bracket.

Peter #82,

Interesting that Wayne didn't feel the need to mention how devasted he was leaving Everton in the earlier article but those memories are suddenly to the forefront in his piece with Tony Bellow!

Alan @84,

Regardless of the motives of those involved and the circumstances surrounding the club during that period, it was the moment that redefined Everton FC as it stopped being a 'big club'.

If things had worked out differently, Rooney could have become an all-time Everton legend and we'd have left Goodison for a new stadium in King's Dock and would probably have added a couple of trophies for good measure. Alas, it was not to be, and we can only hope that the club becomes great again in the future.

The Richard Keys tale doesn't ring true simply because the requested guarantee of £500M for the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock won't touch the sides. At one billion, it might have held water (unlike the dock, fnar, fnar).

Paul # various,

Kenwright as chairman of the club is the man running the show and not just a figurehead – especially as he got his clan in place around the club, including our CEO. His influence runs right through the club.

Moshiri can't just get rid of him because it was part of the sale of shares agreement.

That is why it took so long to get any money into the club because he wasn't looking 24/7 for a buyer — he was looking 24/7 for a mug that would leave him in place.

I guess Moshiri took the long view that he won't be around forever, having stated he would retire at 70, which is now long past.

Brendan,

Have you listened to the conversation properly? I ask because it's Bellew who prompts Rooney, and it was him who mentioned that people who were around the first team at the time, told him that Rooney was in tears when this soap opera was taking shape.

Jay, then Moshiri is a bloody fool, and the sooner he's gone, the better.

Paul,

It's probable, as Jay says, that a Sales and Purchase Agreement was entered into to cover both sides of the transaction. They are commonly used in many such deals.

An SPA covers all the conditions of both seller and purchaser, is usually massively detailed, and is legally binding. Moshiri will have his own conditions included. It may have covered Kenwright remaining as Chairman, but it would be surprising if there wasn't some sort of time limit on that. Without some sort of agreement on this, the sale could well not have occurred perhaps... a situation neither party would have wanted. If goodwill existed, there's no real reason for it not to have been agreed.

When I sold my businesses in 2016, I agreed not to work in the same industry for a period of time that only ended in April this year. It's a normal thing in these matters.

No blame attached at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight, Moshiri may be having a touch of buyer's remorse!

Tony #89,

I've had several employers during my working career and I left every job with a heavy heart but certain what I was doing was for the best. I'm sure it's often particularly difficult in a football setting and no doubt many footballers part company with mixed emotions especially if you are only 18 and leaving your boyhood club.

In the interview, Rooney admits that he would have gone at some stage anyway. Probably still would have been difficult for him emotionally even if he had left 2 or 3 years later.

Mmmm... people quick to believe Rooney's version events. Rooney has been a liar and a cheat in the past, unfortunately – he paid a lot of compensation to Moyes and ask Coleen about his cheating.

My memory may be hazy but I recollect he has fallen out with Moyes and him saying he would have gone anywhere, including Newcastle, before. Now, 20 years on, his recollection is he never wanted to leave, all was rosy. I don't buy it.

Separately as opposed to somebody in would trust, like Joe Royle, we have Kenwright who spins many a yarn.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle and that both parties were happy he departed. I don't really care the whos and whys of him leaving, I still think it was terrible business to sell him at the price they did – he was astoundingly amazing on the back of an unbelievable tournament and we got relative buttons for him.

I am constantly amazed that Kenwright's dreadful custodianship remains beyond criticism with some supporters.

His lies about Rooney being valued at £50M and being made club captain, shortly before selling him to our second most hated rivals for £27M, was only one of several he spouted during that desperately sad close season of 2004.

Anyone remember the Alan Smith saga? Smith was an England international centre-forward at Leeds. They had been relegated, 6 points below Everton when we finished on our record low 39 points.

It was widely acknowledged that he would be joining Manchester United, when along came Kenwright with a bid of £6M for Smith “to play alongside Wayne”, days before he (Smith) did indeed move to Old Trafford and duly played alongside Rooney a few weeks later!

Jay #88,

Agree with all you say. But Moshiri got his shares at a discount, because no-one else was prepared to agree to Kenwright's terms and conditions. Moshiri adopted the old maxim "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth".

The result was inevitable but Moshiri's shares will increase in value, with the bonus of having the front seat on a docklands development. He will still be quids in and Kenwright's remaining shares will do okay as well.

Benitez hopefully can stay and progress the team, even with the drag on proceedings that such antics have had and will have introduced.

Anyway, these guys are all sharks, including Rooney, and dealing with any of them would be best be avoided if one didn't have to.

Ian, was it not Moyes that said he wanted to play Rooney and Smith together?

Jerome,

How do you know that Moshiri got his shares at a discount? How do you know nobody was prepared to agree to agree to Kenwright's conditions?

Shane @96

My recollection is that it was undoubtedly Kenwright. Moyes, like the majority of managers, would never have made a comment like that about another club's player before he was actually signed.

In a nutshell, Kenwright sold Rooney (and we fans) down the river – I for one will never forgive him.

For those who claim that the chairman of a company has no say in the way in which it is run, I can only suggest you refer to "An Idiot's Guide to Company Law".

Ian & Shane,

They are both on the record:

Everton confirm Smith interest – Sky Sports, 20 May 2004

I'm with Peter Warren, I think Rooney is reshaping history somewhat here.

7 July 2003: THE man who steered Wayne Rooney through his first season of top-flight football is at the centre of violent Underworld threats. The teenager's millionaire agent has allegedly been told he will be attacked unless he hands over money to organised criminals in Liverpool and London. Paul Stretford, 44, from Wilmslow, Cheshire, is today meeting Everton bosses and officers from Merseyside Police to discuss the threats. The criminals made their first demand in December – shortly before Mr Stretford's Proactive Sports Management signed Croxteth-born Rooney on to its books. Everton last night denied reports that its 17-year-old star had also been threatened and reassured Blues fans he was safe.

Rooney's former agent, Peter McIntosh, said last night: "No-one ever said anything to me when I had Wayne. There was never any trouble." The death threats will come as another added distraction to the young teenage striker and follows weekend reports that Chelsea's new Russian owner has put him on his wanted list with a £30m price tag.

I think a lot of people are getting sidetracked and missing the point here.

It's not a question of who is the more credible character between Rooney or Kenwright. There is plenty of evidence that both of them have been less than squeaky-clean with the truth or displayed impeccable morality in their lives.

The single topic here is Wayne Rooney's leaving Everton. And unquestionably IMO the club narrative at the time was that they didn't want him to leave and were doing everything in their power to keep him at the club.

There was plenty coming out of the club at this time which contradicted the club's public narrative. Tony Bellew mentions it in the interview, the first time I've heard Rooney himself explicitly confirm things as he perceived them.

I was living in Portugal in the year of Euro 2004 and even I was hearing this stuff from family and friends back in Liverpool. I have absolutely no doubt that plenty of city-based TWers heard the same whispers.

A helluva lot went on at Everton that summer that without doubt influenced the decision to sell Wayne:

● Moyes was livid with how the squad ended the previous season having secured their Premier League status with 5 games to go, then put the flip-flops on, losing their final 5 games of the season including a 5-1 dismantling at Man City. Moyes told a few in the changing room after that final-day loss that they wouldn't be playing for Everton again.

● The relationship between Moyes and Rooney was already strained. A couple of years on from that summer, Moyes successfully sued Rooney for libel when, in the player's biography, he falsely accused Moyes of leaking the story of his granny-shagging to the press. A public apology was issued by Rooney. The offending passage was removed from later prints of the book. Moyes honourable donated the money he received to Everton's Former Player Foundation.

● The club naively let Rooney go off to Euro 2004 (at which his stock rose considerably) without tying him down to a longer contract. His existing one was due to expire in 2005, effectively placing the club in a vulnerable negotiating position when interest in the player inevitably arose.

● Trevor Birch joined as CEO to get a grip on the club's spiralling debt (£40 million and rising) and left within 6 weeks, unable to work under the power struggle between Kenwright and Paul Gregg, who were at loggerheads at how best to take the club forward.

● There were serious differences on how to achieve that and how to finance the proposed King's Dock stadium project.

● As well as the fallout of all the above, you had the Brazilian national coach of losing Euro finalists, Felipe Scolari, saying he had been approached by (without naming us) 'the team that finish 4th from bottom of the Premier League (Everton), offering him the manager's job', but he turned them down because the club would 'only' give him a £10 million transfer budget.

● Moyes was blindsided by this and asked Kenwright what was going on. Kenwright denied any such approach was made and the assumption was that Gregg was working independently of the rest of the board in making this offer.

● Rooney had just been recruited by his obnoxious agent, Paul Stretford, who, if you read his history, is primarily concerned with one thing and one thing only: money.

Taking all this into consideration – and a fair bit besides – for me, the question is not whether it was right or wrong to sell Rooney at that time. The above brief historical recall of that summer shows just how much the club was in disarray on many levels. As such, there were plenty of mitigating circumstances as to why he was sold.

It's not even a question of whether Rooney's Bellew interview represents the definitive truth. For me, it comes down to what I said at the top of this post.

The club's official narrative with regards to Rooney's transfer that summer – by Bill Kenwright in particular – was, and to this date, has always been: Rooney wanted out. The club wanted him to stay and did everything in its power to achieve that.

It is a narrative I personally choose not to believe and Rooney's interview with Bellew reinforces that long-held belief.

In early 2019, it was reported that Kenwright had been brought back into the fold and was now working closely with Brands. Not only transfer targets but also negotiating contracts.

Earlier this year, Dan Meis commented on the "huge influence" Kenwright had on the new ground.

He also represented the club at the "honest 14" meeting in April this year, called in response to the Euro Super Greed League. Apparently he quoted Oscar Wilde, "One should always play fairly when one has the winning cards."

If true he is more than a figurehead and is still an influential figure.

That's right, Brendan, life moves on and you keep your counsel, which is exactly what I think Wayne Rooney has done until very recently and a couple of these podcasts are making their way into the public domain.

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't, but Bellew was the one probing Rooney, saying good Evertonians on the staff, were saying you was in tears, and I think it's unfair giving a man who has kept his counsel since he was a child, stick for saying he was in tears, when asked.

I don't think the podcast was made to bash Bill Kenwright, because I think Tony Bellew will have a lot of time for our chairman for help making his dream of winning a world title at Goodison Park come true.

But, when it's said that Wayne Rooney saved Everton, it's not something I could ever agree with. I consider myself a man who loves Everton FC and so I'd have personally tried to keep the kid and sell the club – which will obviously create even more arguments because it's rumoured nobody wanted to buy us.

I think a few of the posters on this thread should be advised that the boxer Tony's surname is Bellew and not Bellow, after all, nobody would want an unfriendly visit from an angry Mr Bellew, would they? :)

Jay W,

There is another podcast in which Rooney tells a similar story, but says he had to leave Everton. He says Newcastle came into the equation, and he was prepared to go because they were prepared to sign Rooney, and then sell him to Man Utd 12 months later, which is supposedly when Alex Ferguson wanted to sign him.

I find it hard to believe that Newcastle were prepared to do this, but this is what Rooney said, although he said it was thought this might have been a ploy to fish Alex Ferguson out and into signing him a year before he wanted to.

He did say more than once that he had to leave Everton, and Man Utd did get themselves one of their best ever deals – fucking hell, the little scouse cunt even scored a Champions League hat-trick on his debut, which was absolutely horrible to watch for us Toffees!

We can afford to hold onto 'our' Wayne
19 July 2004, Liverpool Echo
EVERTON chairman Bill Kenwright insists the cash-strapped Blues can finance the £50,000 per week deal on offer to Wayne Rooney. The Blues have offered 18-year-old Rooney a new five-year contract on the back of his outstanding performances for England during Euro 2004 and are still waiting for a reply.

"From the time Wayne signed his last contract, we have been talking to (his agent) Paul Stretford about a new one," Kenwright said.. "I suppose, going into this next season, we were thinking probably 'double-your-money, we'll double what you are on now'.

"But David Moyes said 'Look, he's the best player in the world and I want to support the best player in the world. I'd like him to become my captain and I think we should offer him the highest wage in our history.'

"And I agreed totally and offered him the £50,000 a week – and that is not a joke offer, that is the offer in the contract."

Kenwright is hoping Rooney accepts the offer, even though his sale would go a long way towards clearing the Toffees' debts.

"Certainly a sale of Wayne Rooney would revitalise the club's finances, but a five-year contract would also revitalise the club because the fact is we would have kept one of the major stars of world football," Kenwright added.

"It is a double-edged sword and I know which I want to happen. The facts are that he hasn't asked for a transfer, and we would like him to stay."

However, Kenwright and Everton manager Moyes know that Rooney's future must be resolved one way or the other as soon as possible because, with only two years remaining on his current deal, his value will drop as his contract runs out.

"He's got two years left on his contract, and that situation cannot continue forever," warned Kenwright.

"You cannot allow a player like Wayne to go into the last year of his contract and lose a major asset, as happened with Steve McManaman (when he left Liverpool for Real Madrid).

"David and I will be personally dealing with Wayne's future in the next week or so."

Rooney is expected to report back to Bellefield this week, although rumours are his advisers will tell Everton he will not sign a new contract until there are clear signals that the club can attract new talent.

Six weeks later, Wayne had moved to Manchester United and after the dramatic summer the two mystery Russians that were supposed to be interested in investing in Everton FC failed to materialise, Trevor Birch gave up the ghost, and Paul Gregg left the corridors of power - only one man survived!

I think what is clear is that Rooney said that he would be leaving the club, so how you can now say you were gutted. You and your agent had the chance to stay but you refused to sign the offer that was on the table.

I don't blame Rooney joining Man Utd; we were never going to win trophies they went on to win with Rooney. With his contract running out and there being no prospect of him signing a new contract, seems to me the club had little choice but to sell him.

He went on to win trophies and make a lot of money and the money we got for him kept the club afloat. I think the fact he put in a transfer request says who wanted the move the most.

Tony #105,

The Daily Mail article was from November 2020. I think enough water had passed under the bridge to allow Rooney to come out at that point and put the record straight but he chose not to.

Fast forward to the Bellew interview less than a year later, and suddenly his devastation at the club's decision to sell him is front and centre.

Don't get me wrong, I have no animosity towards Wayne. He was the right man, in the right place... unfotunately at the wrong time.

That's the thing though, Brian, because in the two podcasts I've watched, Rooney, is basically saying that he was forced out of Everton, who told him that if he wanted to sign for Man Utd, rather than Chelsea, which would have earned Everton more money, then he had to put in a transfer request.

Peter (104),

Not much difference really but I think it was Little Miss Dynamite at the “the honest 14 meeting” giving Everton's point of view.

Notice the irony of Kenwright at “The honest 14 meeting”...

13 liars and only one honourable man!

Tony111

How can he say he was forced out when there was an offer on the table to sign a new contract worth £50,000 per week? The fact is he wanted to leave but he didn't want to go to the club that offered Everton the most money, so he put in a transfer request and got his move to Man Utd.

But surely, when Wayne made it perfectly clear he wasn't going to sign a new contract, surely it was incumbent on Everton to get the most money for him, and if that club was Chelsea, then it was right to accept their offer and not Man Utd's?

Jay (103),

A lot of believed Kenwright was behind the move to sell Wayne in 2004, whether Wayne wanted to go or not.

Barry (108),

Kenwright has always used the media to help him with stories that he provided them with, the Liverpool Echo near the top of the list.

Couldn't agree more with that last sentence, Brendan, but don't understand why a kid should get stick for answering a question posed to him by a fellow scouser.

Maybe my views on Bill Kenwright sway me to believe he had to sell Rooney; otherwise, he would have had to sell the club, so Everton lost massively twice imo.

Brian,

There is no evidence to suggest Rooney was offered a new contract.

Although Rooney is no saint, I can't see him lying to Bellew about it; and secondly, the staff at Goodison Park confirmed Rooney's version of events.

Personally, I don't think I can remember Kenwright uttering a word of truth in all the statements I have ever heard from him.

I think Wayne Rooney will always have a place in our hearts from the first goal against Arsenal under Moyes to the last against West Ham under Allardyce (or Unsworth, depending on your historical viewpoint).

I remember the Youth Cup Final against Aston Villa – Rooney and ten others!

What sometimes saddens me is that he is younger than Cristiano Ronaldo and when both were at Man Utd, people talked about them in the same breath.

A bit like George Best in a hotel room surrounded by Miss World and numerous champagne bottles and the porter asking ‘Where did it all go wrong, George?'

I can say it because I believe what Rooney is saying, Brian.

If I was 17 and getting pushed out of the club I loved, then I'd also stick to my guns and say "If I've got to leave, then I'm going to make sure I get to pick where I'm going."

But it depends on who you believe, obviously.

I'm not sure how anybody could have thought that the situation regarding Rooney could be much different to that which Rooney states above. Smart business by the club that was otherwise financially insolvent, a move which kept us in business. A great move for Wayne too so win-win for all parties apart from the conspiracy theorists amongst us.

I maintain the healthy position of not believing a word of anybody unless it is corroborated. Wayne could have forced a stay but didn't so his position is clear. The club were desperate to sell and cash in on his Euro performances and their position is clear.

So it's a conspiracy theory if you believe selling Rooney helped Kenwright from having to sell Everton, Martin?

One thing I'll never forget is that, after Rooney left, we got annihilated in our first match of the season at home to Arsenal, and I'm sure Kevin Campbell came out and said he'd take fourth from bottom right now.

I'm sure he did unless my memory is deceiving me, and then Moyes found his 4-5-1, got a few good wins. This got the crowd right behind the team after a real summer of adversity.

Although football has moved on in the Premier League, especially regards to squad strength, wouldn't it be nice for history to repeat itself, now we have a pragmatic manager in charge of Everton once again. 🤞

Indeed, Andy#118

But Wayne liked both the champagne and Miss World to be of a certain vintage... 😊

Tony – good memory.

To be fair, we won 7 of the next 10, only losing to Spurs – and Super Kevin Campbell played just 3 more games for us.

Andy – yes, the 4-1 drubbing at home in the final. I still have the signed match ball from that match as I sponsored it. Probably not worth much. Only goal WR scored in an FA Cup Final. Had to go back to collect the ball as the lads were too upset to sign it there and then.

Which is the best momento of the night:-

a. The ball Rooney scored with?

Or:

b. The photo with Brian Labone with his arm on my shoulder?

Sadly Tony, I had to think about that one as we seemed to go through a phase of routinely being annihilated by Arsenal during that period. The Nayarko match, "that" 7-0 and a 1-6 thumping I watched from the States.

I said earlier and, like you, I also believe that a young Evertonian kid from Croxteth will have been gutted about being told he was going before he'd even had the chance to live his boyhood dream, even if only for a few years.

And I've no doubt he would have been massively apprehensive especially as he was in the media spotlight as England's latest starlet at the time, so the national media were clamouring on his every move. Remember how his foot injury was almost declared a national disaster?

The pressure and focus on him would have been difficult for an experienced and seasoned professional to deal with, let alone a kid who could arguably have still been in the academy. Only he was too good for that.

At least, in my opinion anyway, he made the right choice once it became clear it was happening.

Chelsea and London would have had Paul Gascoigne and Tottenham written all over it and we know where that went. I think he made the right choice, not only opting for the bigger club, but staying close to home.

Tony @121,

That is fact but not Kenwright, you personalise it and that isn't needed. The club had to sell and all players, Rooney included, have a price and Everton have the right to sell any player if the player agrees. Rooney agreed so why do we have an article and conspiracy theories about a perfectly normal piece of football business that had massive benefits for both parties?

Rooney was stellar; Everton were pound shop. Does anybody seriously believe that the club were wrong in selling?

Jay 103

You present a really good analysis of the timeline. I think the key elements are the massive change that happened after his stellar performance at Euro 2004 where he suddenly became the most valuable young player in the world.

Where I don't necessarily agree is your conclusion that Rooney didn't want to go. I think it suited both parties, and it certainly suited his agent, that paragon of virtue Paul Stratford. Kenwright was telling porkies at the time, Rooney is writing his own version of history now is my take.

Correct, Graham, but Kenwright was strictly correct. Wayne put in a transfer request? He could have refused to leave? Did Kenwright force him to write it? Does it matter?

There's a new future for Everton now; 2004 is irrelevant historical baggage. Kenwright's legacy is safe if this 17-year-old non-story is all his detractors can drag up on him.

That's possible, Graham; that he wanted to go. But maybe once it became obvious the club wanted to sell him and the pressure from his agent as well as maybe having his head turned, he did want to go. All feasible.

But him saying what he said in this interview might be how he felt initially as a 17-year-old. I'm sure once what was evolving became apparent, he, his family and advisors made the best choice they thought for him.

Martin (#126), there's plenty of Kenwright quotes to us fans from his own mouth ever since he bought the club that prove he was knowingly misleading us, or being a total berk.

Either way, if none of it means anything to you, so be it.

Others think a person of principle who commanded respect for their attitude and successful performance in charge of one of a band of six clubs who founded the Premier League was the least we deserved. On that basis, Kenwright has been a unique disaster.

I'm certain Stratford, had a lot to do with it, Graham, and I do personalize it, Martin, because I personally think that Kenwright turned Everton into what you rightly described as a pound shop, and yet told some fans that we would never have a better owner.

As ever, Martin, you see stuff through the prism of your refusal to accept Kenwright has only the good of the club at heart in the same way that many on the other side of the argument can only assume he's a lying, chiselling, self-serving conman.

As ever, there is light and shade. I suspect Rooney made a transfer request under the direction of Stretford to strengthen the negotiating hand, by that point he clearly wanted to go and he'd been offered a new £50k a week contract. So quite clearly this new version of events stretches credulity.

But of course Kenwright's protestations that they didn't want him to go also don't ring true. He still had 18 months of his existing contract to run so the contract request could have been declined. Admittedly it would have been financially extremely risky given the dire straits we were in at the time.

Martin, what is the timeline for what becomes "historical baggage"?

Martin, you will spit on any proof of Kenwright's absurd notion of truth. Your mind is closed. If you wish to check out his honesty, check out his utterly desperate selective editing of the critical reviews of some of the productions he has inflicted on the West End.

Yes, they all do it, but he has a reputation for trickery and sleight of hand that is well documented if you care to look for it. Why should any Blue believe that this dodgy fantasist treated his dealings with our club with any more integrity than his theatrical chicanery???

He is a chancer who has lived the dream on the cheap. A stain on our club who has hoodwinked decent folk.

However, you and many, Martin, think differently. I would not like to be an apologist for this distasteful, utterly insincere fraudster. Some would, fair play to you.

Andy, unlike you I have no personal grudge against or dislike of BK and what he does in the West End is the ultimate in irrelevance. I look only at what he has done while at Everton and on the face of it this has been pretty amazing firstly to keep us in business when we had no right to be and then to attract finance and build a new ground. Only a very bitter Blue could be blind to this.
If you can provide a shred of evidence for fraud on his part I'll accept it, if you can't then you have to accept that you are wrong, sorry.

For me, I think Danny's post (@129) comes closest to setting the context for this whole sorry episode, and showing that, yes, Rooney went through a probably long period when he did not want to leave Everton and he believed – like we all did – he would become an Everton legend.

But over time, things deteriorated – the financial state of the club was one part, but his increasing frustrations at working under Moyes were, I firmly believe, central to the transition that occurred, with Rooney having to abandon that dream, and being devasted by it. As I said, how any Evertonian could doubt that he would be feeling that just astounds me.

That rubicon had been crossed by the time Everton talked about the new contract. He had a new agent and the future path was set. Evertonians believe that contract should have been enough on its own to make him stay but it completely misses the point about what was going on in the club at the time, and where Rooney and his family were, based on all the evidence.

Then, the context of the transfer request has surely been made clear. These are not mutually contradictory events that make Rooney a liar. There is simply a changing dynamic that ultimately took the best Everton player there ever was, the best England goalscorer, away from us.

For God's sake. Can someone give Martin Mason the Kool Aid and let him chase the rapture?
You can throw facts at some people and they drip away like rain off wax. Their religious fervour blinds them to reality.

I see the Leeds player lost his appeal, even though the Liverpool player who suffered that horrendous injury, has said he should never have received a red card.

Only because it's a Rooney thread but Derby are allegedly negotiating a points reduction with the EFL over breaching FFP.

Apparently they and the EFL are to agree on a 9 point deduction because of their cooperation, with a suspended further 3 points depending on future compliance. It will put them on minus 2 points.

Makes you wonder if there is increased scrutiny or if the powers that be are just looking for easy targets to make examples of hence our nervousness in the summer??

As Confucius may have said once upon a time 'If you have skeletons hidden in your closet, it's probably best to keep hold of the key to the closet.' but he apparently did say 'Fine words and an insinuating appearance are seldom associated with true virtue.'

Martin - I think you are mistaken - in fact Mr Kenwright almost put us out of business and far from either personally investing in the club or attracting those who could, he sold off all the assets whether that be player or real estate.

Far from finding a new owner he continued the reduction in Everton's status to its current all time low, ably assisted by Moyes in the ridiculous 'plucky Everton' narrative which suited both their agendas.

Along the way, he pedalled outright and incredible fibs.

Not sure how you see that record being rightly criticised as 'bitter blues'.

You can't handle the truth..

At the time I was devastated but Everton were desperate for cash, absolutely desperate.

We could have taken an almighty fall both financially and down the league pyramid without the Rooney cash and been forced to sell him for less 12 months later.

It was take a huge risk and keep him or sell him and cause huge upset.

Even if Rooney was desperate to leave, I have never blamed him. Move to the best club in the land and win trophies. Gutted, but look at what he's won.

Martin, I have no personal grudge against Bill Kenwright.You say, " what he does in the west end is the ultimate in irrelevance ".
I would suggest that it is indeed pertinent. That a man who has a reputation as a snake in one area should have his dealings in another thoroughly scrutinised.
Have a look at, for example, Private Eye's articles on him. Even the most recent" Kenwright up to his old tricks again".
Do you for one minute believe that Kenwright has two sides? The benevolent Blue, and the West End snake. Do you believe he lies in one role and is truthful in the other?
Perhaps he does indeed, like Robin Hood, rob from the rich and give to the poor. I suggest he robs from the rich, the poor and Everton
I know you are happy to dismiss any criticism of the man, you hold your hands over your ears and stick your tongue out.
I challenge you to put up an article. I'll give you a title "Bill Kenwright, a proper Blue"
You won't of course, you will say, "why should I" You will take the easy option of " I reserve the right to remain silent".
You will take the option of all Blue Bill's defenders and say "Nah, nah, nah nah nah.

Andy Crooks @142; Game, Set and Match.

Edit; That said, Martin is a weapons grade Apologist and all around wummer, but the place would be worse off without him.

And Andy (#142) Private Eye is more than used to bent bastards trying to sue them for libel/defamation but our appalling charlatan chairman has never done so, despite his mega-wealth since Mr Muppet/Moshiri (another whose "business enterprise" is cloaked by obscurity) made him inordinately rich.

And yet we still have on here, in Kenwright's defence no less, the human equivalent of the three monkeys' "hear/see/speak no evil" absurd mantra.

They'd probably pair Per Kroldrup with Glenn Keeley at the centre of our defence in our all-time best ever XI.

Paul Hewitt, you say why would anyone buy a club and let the previous owner have a say. Well I say why would Moshiri buy Everton in stages. A few shares here a few shares there. He still hasn't bought the whole lot bill still has his fingers in the train set.

Brian 114, you honestly believe he was offered £50,000 a week. Everton where skint, going out of business we did not have £50,000 a week for Rooney. It was all said to make bill look good and Rooney bad. You know it and so do the rest of us.

I'm no Kenwright defender, far from it, and this story potentially brings to light the scale of the BS behind his tenure. Project Kirkby was fishy to say the least (understatement). I still haven't met a blue who voted 'yes'.

That being said, I also remember Rooney's contract offer in 2004 being widely reported by Sky and other sources (Link).

It would be interesting to probe Rooney further on this and get his opinion on the contract offer, phoney or not!

Contract debate aside, if Rooney is to be believed, then quite despicably, Kenwright through him under the bus to save himself.

Imagine if the vitriol of that WBA game was aimed at the board, all season, with a squad that could have just as easily have been relegated rather than finishing 4th.

We have seen such toxicity sink big clubs in the past. Sunderland, Newcastle, Leeds...

Kenwright would have been well aware of the hammering Johnson took at the hands of the fans following Ferguson's sale to Newcastle.

He saved his own skin but through this, he could have inadvertently saved us from relegation, such was the galvanising effect Rooney's departure had on the fans (and possibly the squad) behind Moyes.

Classic sliding doors moment.

What is unforgivable, as has been mentioned, is Kenwright's silence on the debacle ever since. Especially considering the abuse Rooney initially suffered. This is all presuming Rooney's word as gospel however. A big leap of faith perhaps!

Glenn Keeley and Per Kroldrup. I didn't need to wake up to that thought on my 50th Don.

Its hard to go over the last 15 years of utter bullshit fed to the supporters, (again as it dumbs the senses) to the press and probably the banks. Martin asks for evidence. I this give Colin Fittzpatricks article in 2011 with extracts from the Kirkby inquiry and evidence given by Robert Elstone. In which he states the major shareholders are not willing to sell their shares, nor dilute them, that Neil Harris was never employed to sell the club, transcripts from the the EGM giving Kenwrights comments about how hard he is trying to sell the club.. you get the drift.
But rather than go over it all once more to try to regurgitate memories from a dark history of lies and part truths, have a read, I am sure it will make uncomfortable reading for Martin, again. Link below.
https://www.ToffeeWeb.com/season/10-11/comment/fan/17257.html

On Rooney, I recall that Moyes was often putting him on the left, which Rooney didn't like. Wayne was also having disciplinary problems. He may well have been outstandingly gifted but I wonder if Moyes thought that with a sale, life would be easier, and he would have money to buy more of his own choices?
There was already a lot of media attention on Wayne. Perhaps Moyes was getting sick of it.
It is questionable whether Rooney could have dragged us on to better things without investment. I expect that he was well aware of that.
Wayne knows a lot more than he is letting on. Everyone in football is very circumspect about revelations, especially if they still earn a living from the game in, coaching, hospitality or media.
It's a murky world full of greedy agents and others and Rooney was a kid. Kenwright, Moyes and Alex Ferguson continued their cosy relationship for many years. To the detriment of EFC.

Happy birthday Danny, although I can honestly say there is nothing to get old for mate, except a bit of knowledge, hopefully!

Barry H, I don't know how you dig up all these past articles, but do us a favour if you can please mate, and try and find the one on the front of the Liverpool echo many years ago when Bill Kenwright began his mission to win enough hearts and minds, and take over Everton.

I'm sure I never dreamt it, with big front page headlines saying, “I WILL BUY EVERTON A CENTRE-FORWARD WITH MY OWN MONEY”

This never happened of course, but he did sell one of the finest young players of any generation though, which meant he would have done anything to stay in charge of our club

Happy Birthday Danny!

To Martin Mason and others.

Can anyone explain how we found ourselves in this desperate financial situation?
What besides mismanagement by the Chairman and board led to us needing to sell the best player in Europe? I'm going for mismanagement and self interest ( Kings Dock is Kenwright's legacy Martin).

Were our fellow Premier league founder members and rivals Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea going through similar problems?
To describe selling Rooney as a win/win really is taking the piss out of Evertonians, we follow Everton to see us win matches and trophy, to see goals and great football not to admire the accountants.
Any hope we could build around Rooney and compete disappears immediately. and it did indeed give us another 17years of mediocrity.
To give Kenwright credit with the realisation of building a new stadium is beyond ridiculous, so he found the man who had the money??
What a fuckin genius, give him a knighthood.
1 more thought without looking at the actual Tony Bellew interview, is it not feasible that Rooney has finally come clear on this to give Bellew some juicy info to promote Tony's new broadcasting career?
That's not to doubt Rooneys version. Happy Birthday Danny O, one of TW finest posters!! Remember 50 is the new 40..! And life begins at 40.

Tony @152
I get it all from the link posted below, unfortunately, there's not much that has been digitized between 1970 and 2001, so the headline and story you mention aren't included as of yet.

The site http://www.bluecorrespondent.co.uk is a credit to those who administer it and when they eventually manage to cover the whole history of the club it will be an even greater source of information for Blues all over the world.

Everton Independent Research Data

Happy 50th Danny, hope the dogs take you for a walk tomorrow morning to help with your hangover. :)

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

The dogs can't differentiate between weekdays and weekends, so I have no chance for tomorrow!!

At last something we can all agree on - Happy Birthday Danny!

Billy 154

You sum up the situation succinctly.

Martin Mason (various), I'll give you credit for your persistence, however, think about the following; “you don't know what you don't know” (Socrates), and IMO you/we never will.

With regard to BK, I liken him to Big Ben. He's got 4 faces! 😎😎😎😎

Well I have no idea if Rooney was offered £50,000 per week but the press at the time stated this to be the case, but if Kenwright was lying then I guess he was following a tradition started by Carter. This isn't supposition this is fact the BBC radio interviewed Carter and asked was there any truth in the rumour that Everton had sold Lineker To Barcelona, to which Carter replied "I can categorically state that Everton have not sold Lineker to Barcelona". Then 5 minutes later the same station had a reporter in Leicester fruit market were Lineker's Dad had a stall and he asked him about the rumour of Gary going to Barcelona and he said " yes Gary has signed for Barcelona this morning".

The club were close to insolvency when Rooney was sold as Kenwright borrowed money to buy his shares, never invested a penny to to the club but was determined to keep control even when he received an offer from Gregg to buy him out. That resulted in us losing the option to build a stadium on the banks of the Mersey 20 years ago and consigned Everton to mediocrity and failure.

Also, he is a confirmed liar both in this theatrical career and in his ownership of Everton. Both are relevant, because if you are a snake in one facet of your life you are usually a snake in all facets of your life.

It is unfortunately pretty devastating to think what could have been. Growing up as a 90s supporter with no memory of the 80s, it felt like we were a crisis club flirting with relegation and / or financial ruin for many years pre Kenwright.

We became more successful than we had been (in my limited memory) under Kenwright and Moyes. Whilst this was mediocre, it was a lot better than what I was used to.

My concern wasn't losing pace with the clubs at the top, because in my era of supporting we were never part of that group. My very real concern was joining Sheff Wed, Notts Forest etc in obscurity and ruin.

I was later relieved we didn't follow other clubs in living outside their means like Leeds, Portsmouth and others. This often involved shady (foreign) owners and Kenwright held out in this respect.

However, this thread fills in a lot of the gaps in my knowledge and understanding. I'm probably never going to get fully up to speed as others are.

I start to see Kenwright as a safe (but selfish) pair of hands who oversaw a period of stability (and relative success compared with the prior 5 to 10 years) after a very serious decline. He was neither rich nor competent enough (maybe selfless enough too) to pull off the King's Dock deal or pull together a better squad.

It obviously grates that he's done so well financially out of this. I get the impression hatred of Kenwright and all he stands for is behind (what I consider misplaced) criticism of Unsworth and the former players involved in the academy.

I'm doubtful he has enough clout now to blame him for our present reduced circumstances - and he did manage to (eventually) find a foreign owner with both money and decent intentions.

It's not his fault the new owner threw good money after bad for 5 years along the lines of a grade C economics project. Although he was largely responsible for the sentimental Rooney deal which didn't really pay off (but could have done if we hadn't spent so poorly on duplicate players that summer).

Like everyone else, I'll be mightily relieved when the stadium is built (probably 20 years too late) because after some harsh lessons learned for Moshiri we will be better placed to become competitive again.

Ooh Gregg was in it for the love of EFC? Or was he in it for the money, especially with the potential kings Dock.

I don't know why anyone bothers with any of this tit for tat as within the next few days there will be another story... and it could be anything at all, and someone will still bring it all back to Kenwright.

I've have many friends that stopped visiting TW because of the amount of cynics. It's not about having my/our heads in the sand. We are not talking about anything new. Believe it or not but a lot of Evertonians believe BK saved the club. How many take overs have been successful as opposed?

In the end we have our new stadium. We could enjoy better success on the field this season too (l believe). I can't see us going on runs of 4 games losing under this boss. In between we had some highs, of course not as high as we'd like. I enjoyed us under Moyes to a large extent and with BK things improved, slowly. They got us to the brink a few times.

Now along comes Moshiri. First decision was to bring in Koeman. Enough said.

Off the field Eitc has grown and is something to be proud of. Bramley Moore has finally started and will quickly take shape. And of Goodison Park it will remain to huge extent as a lasting landmark to our great club and serve the community. Perhaps he could have sold us sooner. But to who?

BK gets our club. Not all get him. However. It is no longer about him. It's about Moshiri. BK is no longer holding us back because he wasn't rich enough. FFP is holding us back now (hopefully not for too long) because of how bad the recruitment had been under Koeman/Walsh. We knew this was coming.

Can we not all get along?

David (162), yes of course was in it to make money, but he was using his own money to do so, Kenwright wanted the Greggs and their money on board but wouldn't give up his power in the club, otherwise we would have celebrating playing football at the Kings Dock for nearly twenty years.

He was happy to borrow money off Mrs. Gregg but wouldn't listen to any ideas her husband had, all one way was the way Kenwright preferred, in his favour.

David, you wonder why people bother with all this tit tat? You've just contributed to the debate, why did you bother?

Above post (163), should have started off: yes of course Gregg was in it to make money. Sorry about that!!

David @162
I think that they are all involved in the sport for the money in some form or other, just because the person in charge happens to be a supporter in the same way as we all are, doesn't mean they get a free pass. Whether it was due to Incompetence, lack of financial clout, or any other reason, the fact remains that it's taken two decades of 'our' time and energy to see 'progress' and then what happens the gross mismanagement continues on a grander scale.

It's never about one individual, the greatest tragedies are usually because of small individual mistakes by many people over a long period of time that build up to cause catastrophic events. My argument with Bill is that he has held on to power for too long, even if nowadays that power is not as influential as it has been in the past.

BILL KENWRIGHT, the Everton vice-chairman, has finally completed a pounds 20 million deal to take over the club - pounds 30m less than Peter Johnson's original asking price for his 68 per cent shareholding. Kenwright, who tied up the agreement late on Christmas Eve after several days of protracted negotiations with Johnson, now has until 25 January to complete the formalities, beginning with a thorough audit of the club's accounts immediately after the holiday period. The deal will value the entire club at around pounds 30m.

Kenwright has opted not to join forces with any of the rival consortiums which have shown interest in the club and has stuck with his own financial backers. They are believed to include Phillip Green, who recently sold his Sports Division group and is currently said to be involved in the move to take over Marks and Spencer.

Bill Buys Blues for £20m

Johnson, a Jersey-based businessman, has agreed to sell his 68 per cent stake to Kenwright for £20m, a few months after seeking £50m.
The club has debts of at least £15m and desperately needs a major cash injection to buy new players.Source Guardian

Dave, l know, l realised. Couldn't help myself!! I have been sat on my hands a few days now. Every single thread doesn't have to descend into BK bashing, yet it does. Always. Everything. Yes the kitbag deal was atrocious, as was destination Kirkby... however l still believe he had the best interests of the club. Most people close to the club have mainly positive things to say about him. Even Bellew.

If Gregg took over would it have all been so rosey, so easy, so black and white? I trusted him less. The biggest impact really for me was the Champions League and newl6 formed Premier League and the amount of money those top 4 (or sky 4) could accumulate while the rest trod water. So he begged borrowed etc and barely kept us afloat.

The next few years are going to be very interesting. Spurs, in their new stadium are taking in around £5 million per home game (so l was told). Does this give them an edge over a lot of teams? Loads more questions to be asked regarding FFP as well. Especially the time between now and Bramley Moore opening. What will our spending be from now till then? What will the impact of the stadium be on recruitment after we have moved.

That's what l am interested in... along with what's happening on the pitch. Not in turning evey thread about BK.

Please visit, and pledge, Derek Knox's cancer research thread. Give him yer fuckin' money. (Bob Geldof taught me that).

Bill Kenwright gets our club, but not everyone gets Bill Kenwright. It's all about opinions again David, but that is also a very cynical thing to say imo mate!

Dave @
Fair enough, differing opinions are what makes this site what it is, but according to Dave Prentice on July 29th, 2004 in the Echo:

The influential ToffeeWeb site, the longest established and most visited supporter site, is currently running a poll asking: "In whose hands would you have greater confidence placing the financial future of Everton FC?" The figure at present has an overwhelming 80 per cent backing Gregg. Many supporters still seem loathe to publicly criticise Kenwright, but Toffee-web columnist Lyndon Lloyd wrote: "Such is the apprehension for the coming season among supporters that they seem ready to abandon their Blue blooded 'saviour' for a bona fide businessman in the Peter Johnson mould. "There is a very real feeling that unless Kenwright can suddenly formulate both a rock solid plan and the investment to support it, the smart money has to go on the man who seems intent on finally running Everton Football Club like a business as opposed to the 'Old Boys' club it has resembled for so long now. "Six months ago it would be unthinkable to back Gregg over Kenwright. Unfortunately for Bill it appears very much as though he is facing a do-or-die situation this week as he seeks to convince us that he has a master plan.

Tony, l will be sure to bring me shinpads to the Bramley Moore. I don't think l was going for cynical. Nor can l remember what l wrote without going back to look such is my head on a whole bunch of narcotics. Looking forward to meeting you and your Dave and hopefully celebrating a win.

Graham @ 127.

You acknowledge the validity of a particularly manic summer of 2004, the year Wayne was sold.

In such a rapidly moving dynamic, is it not plausible that the position of the two main players in this - Rooney and Kenwright - also changed with each passing day?

Bill might have been sincere when he said after Wayne's stellar show at the Euros that 'we won't sell him for £50 million and we want to make him the highest paid player in Everton's history.'

Similar, Wayne was also sincere in saying that he didn't want to leave the club at that time.

As the rapidly changing realities of events that summer unfolded, Bill under pressure from Gregg and the banks, spurned by Birch, had to make a decision and concluded that selling the club's most lucrative asset was the solution.

Wayne, realising that Everton was willing to trade him in, conceded that his desire to remain at the club for another season or two was a pipe dream and the harsh realities of professional sport kicked in and so accepted the inevitable, but on his terms, deciding where he was going to go, rather than let the club dictate who he was sold to.

As Michael said @ 135 these are not necessarily mutually contradictory events that make either Kenwright or Rooney a liar.

I stand by my repeated point in this thread that the club narrative at the time which has never been altered was that the club wanted Wayne to stay, that it was he who agitated for a transfer and that Everton was reluctant sellers. For me that amounts to deception.

It was all a bit more nuanced than that as my timeline tried to show.

Oh! Another element I forgot to mention in that timeline was the fact it was common knowledge that Wayne's family did not renew their Goodison executive box at the start of that season. They knew what was afoot.

David Pearl, it is nonsense to claim as you do that every single TW thread descends into Kenwright bashing. No it doesn't.

This thread originates from contemporary news, a recent interview between two Evertonians, Tony Bellew and Wayne Rooney, talking about an extremely pivotal event and the summer of 2004 in the club's history.

It is totally valid that the pros and cons of the actors in that drama get discussed in this thread in the here and now.

I will grant you, there are some posters that constantly reference Kenwright. Personally, I totally filter them out. They represent an extremely insignificant minority of TWers.

I can acknowledge that Bill finally sold the club to a rich benefactor, but that IMO does not completely exonerate him for perceived failings under his now 32 years as a member of the Everton board.

You credit him with saving and doing the best for the club David. Seven years after Wayne left EFC, in 2011 three Blue Union members travelled down to London to interview Bill in a notorious meeting in which the proceedings were clearly recorded (in spite of subsequent denials by the Blue Union. You don't produce such a detailed transcript of the meeting as they did without a recording), which I personally wasn't comfortable with as it betrayed a confidentiality agreement they made with Bill to get the interview.

Whatever, the exchanges of that private meeting got into the public domain. The shared transcript can be read here:

Blue Union Meeting with Bill Kenwright

Some of Bill's responses are bewildering, eye-popping. Reading it again after all these years, personally I am left with a similar impression as I was at that time.

Bill Kenwright is either an inept and incompetent chairman with little or no knowledge of the inner workings of his club, or on the day of the interview he was being deliberately deflective and disingenuous about his role and how the club operates. Either way, he doesn't come out of the interview well.

David (166), no problems David, we just have different opinions which we are entitled to,they don't differ when the love of EvertonFC comes into it that's for sure, best wishes David.

Jay (172), I urge anyone who is interested I Kenwright's part in Everton FC's history to read the “ Blue Union's meeting with Bill Kenwright” even neutral supporters.

I wasn't unduly concerned that the Blue Union taped the event, if the truth was being spoken what did either side have to fear!!

Dave 173, yes of course. I always respect the opinions of real blues such as yourself. Wishing you all the best also and hope to say hello at Bramley Moore.

Jay, thanks for your balanced response as always. You've given me homework to do so l am reading the transcript right now. It starting by saying the guys had to pay for their own train tickets down to see him... Anyway, open mind! :)

Oh and l am certain as you say that not every subject matter comes back around to BK. It just feels like it.

No narcotics allowed in the Bramley-Moore, David, but that hopefully shouldn't stop loads of blues celebrating another 3 points mate!

David Pearl, "BK gets our club. Not all get him" and "I always respect the opinions of real blues".

You're on a roll today.

Tony, don't worry they are prescribed. Just not working.

Steve, l think a lot of that transcipt he was defending himself. Perhaps he felt on trial. That wasn't a long time ago. However in football terms it was. Perhaps today it's become slightly easier to sell a football club and to find a few more billiomaires. Look at how much more money comes from broadcasting. And l do respect the opinions of others... as long as they fall in line with mine. Obviously.

B.Mallon 145 on your remarks about Everton shares.
Blue Heaven Holdings Limited in the Isle of Mann is fronted by F.Moshiri and his Everton shares are 93,698 or 92.16%
B.Kenwright shares 1750 or 1.72%
Others shares 62199 or 6.12%
Total shares 101667 or 100%
With the people Moshiri has put on the board I cant see B.K. having many fingers in his train set.
The problem with the B.K. bashing and I am not a fan of his, there is to much fiction than fact.

For any Kenwright defenders I suggest you read what Christine (#150) included in her post (and thank you Christine). It's a detailed TW column from ten years ago outlining what a bag of daz Kenwright had then been for a mere 32 miserable years.

Add in Jay's clip above (#172) and then come on here to defend him again if you can.

And spare me the need for li'l ol' me to identify someone better able to guide our club, but I'd say anyone devoid of the (inadvertently) self-confessed sheer ignorance arrogance and incompetence displayed by Kenwright would be a worthy starter.

The person I blame for selling Rooney is Kenwright. The fact that he only got half of what he should have got is what annoys me most because he hung the label ‘ Small Club ‘ on the doors of Goodison. ( Rafa confirmed it ) The prick was crying on the phone to his mum, right in front of Alex Ferguson after agreeing to let Rooney go. To think that this idiot is still at Everton is sickening.
The people I blame for allowing Rooney to go to Man Utd are his parents. How could you let your teenage son, a born and bred Blue Scouser go and play in front of a crowd that sings “ If you all hate Scousers, clap your hands” before every game ? I would have felt better if he'd gone to Liverpool for some strange reason.
One final note. Why didn't Tony Bellew ask The little prick why he kissed the Manc badge after scoring at Goodison? Let's not fall for this rubbish about how bad he feels because it's too late. All he's after anyway is to join the ever growing ex blue brigade on the payroll because he knows his Derby days are numbered.

I have only limited ideas of how football finances work. I have no idea how to run a football club.

I have no money to invest in a football club. I have some friends who could help me. They'd want an opportunity to make some money out of it though.

I wouldn't really know where to start when it comes to building a stadium. Shit, I probably wouldn't even know what site would be the best option.

I can bullshit as much as the next person. I am also a massive Everton fan. Such a massive fan, I wouldn't let me ego and personal ambition stand in the way of my football club progressing.

Kenwright's a tit and we've been forced suck his nipple way too long!

Interesting David that you consider Bill's comments in the linked transcript as him simply 'defending himself.'

If he was, I rather think he did a very poor job of doing so. We learn:

* He has no idea why (a long list of people, including himself) had been unable to sell Everton FC.

* Was surprised when the interviewees told him that his CEO Robert Elstone had said that Keith Harris was NOT involved in an attempted sale of the club. He was incredulous and asked when Elstone had stated that, only to be told he had said that as the club's representative at the Kirkby Stadium Public Enquiry. How would a wised up chairman not know that?

* Having already said he had no idea why the club wasn't sold, Bill then said 'no one can sell the club better than me'

* When another quote by Elstone from the public enquiry was put to Bill - that none of the major shareholder shares were for sale, that BK was looking for investment, not selling the Club - Bill replied 'I do not run the football club…the chairman doesn't run the football club' (Say what, I ask?!)

* On the club's debt and football finances, Bill walks into his own trap. He first states '85p in every pound goes to Finch Farm. Football isn't rocket science, matchday, player sales and television goes into one budget. What do you think is happening with the money? he asks. The reply is 'I'm fairly confident it's gone to pay debts Bill'. BK retorts 'And where has the debt come from?' He gets back 'Good question Bill…you tell us.' It takes a while, but he eventually concedes that income WAS paying off the debts

* When talking about the annual accounts, he was asked about the steep price of 'operational costs' which had spiralled up to £24 million pa at that time. Bill's response?

'When you say other operating costs what do you mean?' When it is explained to him that is what is listed in the accounts, Bill replies 'The accounts go through the most stringent structure imaginable. It's just a heading, what's the heading again and how much is it?' The details are repeated to him AGAIN. Bill replies 'I don't know, I have no idea. Why should I have any idea of what the operating costs are? I can't break down the accounts for you.'

Stop and take in just this passage of the transcript David.

You are the major shareholder and chairman of a private company. That company is in financial difficulty, struggling to service its debt. The annual accounts has 'a listing' that shows 'operational costs' is bleeding £24 million out of the club/company...and the major shareholder and chairman has no grasp on what this is?

Wouldn't a competent leader of the club look at and challenge that listing and number as a quick and easy remedy to improve the club's finances? Yet Bill declared total ignorance of the same.

He shows similar ignorance about another source of income for the club, the Kitbag deal for selling club merchandise. He wasn't aware that it restricted buyers to buying via the club shops or online, that it wasn't possible to buy Everton gear in local shops. 'Do Kitbag stipulate that? Have you asked Robert (Elstone)?'

Again, how can the sitting chairman and major shareholder not know this stuff?

A lot of self-aggrandising surfaces again from Bill, as well as talking up his 'mates'. 'Philip Green is the best advisor you can have in the history of the world. He's a total genius when it comes to money, he's like Mozart is to music.'

Dunno about likening Green to Mozart. He proved himself to be a good fiddler with the BHS pension fund, didn't he?

Bill repeats a line he is fond of peddaling 'every other Football Club in the country wants to be like Everton Football Club; every one of them, every single one of them. When I am not there you won't half fucking notice. If I was you I'd want me there.

Sure, Bill.

What you read as someone 'defending himself' David, I read as someone unjustifiably indulging in self-promotion whilst simultaneously displaying an astonishing degree of ignorance over fundamental issues which had serious consequences for the club's well-being.

my comments at #179 other shares should be 6.219 not 62199. apologize.

Or professing total ignorance at least Jay.

It worked for Harry Redknapp in court, so why not?

I don't think it's so much that Kenwright gets our club, it's more the case that he's had our club.

And every single Evertonian, except my good friend Martin!

Christine@150, Yes, I read it at the time and I have the same comment as I have now, big on insinuation and opinion and devoid of any relevant fact. It was Colin "who's" 15 minutes of fame that's all. Now, we know that Everton weren't for sale and BK was very clear about that and that is absolutely a decision to be made by the shareholders and nobody else. BK said that he was not selling but waiting for the correct investment which he has achieved as promised. DK was an attempt to have a new ground built with money leveraged from Tesco, it was a fair idea but checks and balances ensured that it didn't happen which is absolutely correct. In general the comments above are what I call fog spraying where people come up with rumours, myths, half truths and irrelevancies and say, look at all of these, there must be some truth in it, look at all of this fog? We have to realise that decisions are made by a constituted board and major shareholders which is exactly what happened. Can I please have a shred of evidence that anything BK did was not in the interest of the club (evidence not opinion) as the directors and shareholders decided, or illegal, or outside of his remit and jurisdiction as chairman and major shareholder. I believe that we're now financially in a good position, we're building a new ground and we have a team that is playing very well pretty much as BK said he was trying and going to achieve. Remember that those putting him down here know little about the running of a business of this turnover, nothing at all about how Everton has been run and nothing regarding possible sales of and investment in the club.

Hard to believe people still back Bill, despite all the “hard” evidence against. In Kenwright's mind, Everton would fold without him. It's that simple. Master and keeper. He was supposed to retire at 70….after a couple of supposed battles with ill health (usually a cover for poor performance). Moshiri was simply an investor. And he's given Bill his investment. Kenwright never had any intention of selling up which is why (likely) Abu Dhabi was turned away as they wanted it lock, stock, and the rest. He couldn't take that. Now he's hedging his bets on the new stadium, a stand in his name etc etc. The big actor with his name up in lights, regaling his fellow chairman with tales of yore from the shiny new directors box. If he truly loved the club and not the limelight it affords him, he'd have fucked off years ago. And probably would have ended up with a lot more goodwill in the process. Shameful

If you read the manuscript, that Jay W, provides@183 Martin, then I think that last very relevant paragraph that you have just written must also apply to Mr Kenwright.

It's amazing to me, that even direct quotes which show the person to be out of his depth, can be excused and brushed off so easily. I don't have to be a politician to be able to criticise the Prime Minister of the day, I don't need to be a psychologist to recognise a pathological liar, and I don't need to be a banker to recognise somebody who has little knowledge of finance. The question I ask myself is would I hire this guy and the answer always comes back the same - absolutely not.

Barry, I gave up reading too much into Martin's asinine posts years ago. I actually find them mildly amusing. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, as they say.

I guess our Martin, had he been alive at the time, would've had serious doubts about the culpability of so many convicted in the Nuremberg trials. And on his logic, why not?

After all, none of those convicted were ever proven to have been in attendance at Nazi massacres were they?

No, they merely admitted to having been in charge of the very parts of the Nazi system that directly enabled others to carry out such atrocities, whilst simultaneously alleging they were also in total ignorance of the activities of others sitting with them at the top table.

It's called "The Nuremberg Defence" and is used by total shits who blame their appalling behaviour on "orders from above".

I'm not playfully accusing Kenwright of adopting this course of action though (ha-ha). After all, the enclosures by Christine Foster and Jay Wood on their posts above contain no such evidence despite repeated reference by Kenwright as to the virtues of "his good mate" and advisor Phillip Green.

No, he merely said in those posts that he's the top man at Everton, repeatedly, whilst also ruing the fact 10 years ago, and before and ever since in effect, that he's been unable to control the destiny of the club despite his lofty position.

So who has had control Kenwright? Who has been pulling your strings all along?

Opinions, eh. You may find that Everton were a financial basket case at the end of the Peter Johnson reign, in such a perilous state financially that we had to sell Duncan Ferguson behind the managers back. We were 15 million in the red, a lot of money then. By the way, Joe Royle won the F.A. Cup, not the chairman. That chairman built a stand which should have been erected at his previous club. You may find that nobody, nobody wanted to buy Everton then, such were our finances. You may find that Paul Gregg wanted in on the Kings Dock deal for the money from concerts there. You may find that we were renting, not buying the stadium, and that Gregg's offer of 15 million over 10 years would return him 30. As I say, a lot of money then. Paul Gregg is not involved with football. Not a football man. Nice of him and his wife to loan Bill Kenwright money, although paying them back turned into another problem. Unfortunately the stadium was beyond us financially then, and however you look at it, it was a sickener at the time. You may find that Trevor Birch left Everton after 6 weeks because Bill Ķenwright would not sell Wayne Rooney to help re-balance our finances, as bad they undoubtedly were.
Not sure what part of £50,000 a week for 5 years cannot be understood. But there was more on offer elsewhere, as Wayne had been hijacked by a new agent, who knew a cash cow when he saw one. He took Wayne away from a decent man who was acting for him. You may find that nobody of financial substance tried to buy Everton while Bill Kenwright has been chairman, before Farhad Moshiri. The guys who want to buy clubs go to the media you see, to say they are willing to buy, or have made bids for, a club. For instance recently, West Ham, Arsenal and Newcastle. Please don't say that you know the City people were wanting to buy us. You don't, and they didn't. They had a shiny new free stadium to move into, with plenty of corporate boxes for their friends and an international airport on the doorstep. We still wait for the names of the companies or individuals who wanted to buy us and throw hundreds of millions in. Names anyone? You may find that everything Bill Kenwright has done, robbing Peter to pay Paul, or in his case David Moyes, has been to try to keep Everton competitive until a well financed buyer could be found. You may find that we had no spare money, no buyers for the club, and were desperately ( yes it was desperately) looking at sites for a new stadium with alternative funding models. Now we have our backer, sourced by Bill Kenwright eventually, and he has committed to putting 500 million, possibly rising to a billion, into our club. Which is the only way we can ever compete, the way football has gone. So in 4 years time we may find ourselves in a beautiful ground, with a beautiful team, and we may ask ourselves, well- how did we get here. Copyright Talking Heads, and to all Blues, stay safe, stay well, and stay civil to each other. We all want the same thing. Success for our club.

Martin. He lied. Repeatedly. Your dismissal of Colin's 15 mins of fame are disgraceful and you should be ashamed. If nothing else just read the transcripts he attached given by an officer of the company, Robert Elstone, under oath to the inquiry. That's fact, not myth. DK stadium was not being built with any money from Tesco, Tesco were not providing a single penny to the club. The much vaunted 50m supposedly coming from them was nothing but a fraudulent attempt to deceive, it was the expected increase in ground value post completion. No cash injection.
Martin, I HAVE run companies much bigger than the club, I DO have the benefit and experience that you say supporters lack, it is one of the main reasons back in the early days that the actions of the club and the words spoken raised questions.
There is nothing admirable in your support of a man, who now you say, was waiting for the correct investment and NOT selling the club despite the God knows how many times he stated it, in interviews, to other shareholders or at AGMs for goodness sake!
Nothing more to be said Martin. There is no defence, the end will never justify the means.
End of.

Did Bill Kenwright preside over the second most consistent period of Everton's history? - Yes.

Did Bill Kenwright oversee a £68million net spend in the 4 years following the Rooney sale - Yes

Did Bill Kenwright take over a club left deep in the shit who only stayed in the division by the skin of their teeth - Yes

Did Bill Kenwright sell us out to a foreign investor only to leave the club in greater financial peril - No

Has Bill Kenwright ever claimed to have enough money to invest in Everton - No

Does anyone have any categorical proof that Bill Kenwright still pulls the strings at Everton? - it would appear not.

If you dislike Kenwright you will see what you want to see, regardless of anything else.

Phil (#194) you come across as a.n.other Toffee who is still willing to defend Kenwright's 30 year performance in the boardroom. So be it.

That said, your repetitive citing of the term "You May Find Yourself", as you know, comes from a famous (before Kenwright ever inveigled his way into our boardroom) song by the USA band "Talking Heads" (and how appropriate is that to Kenwright's conduct?)

Way more than that old chap is the title of the song itself. It's "Burning Down The House", and in terms of appropriateness it's perfect for Kenwright's legacy over 30 years in our boardroom.

And bollocks to effect on our club of course.

Well done on selecting the song though and, if you consider yourself to be a solidly loyal Kenwright football coach, maybe you should ask him for a wage for however long you'd like. It works to the advantage of most of his other sycophants at Finch Farm.

Kevin (#196), you state/query "Did Bill Kenwright preside over the second most consistent period of Everton's history? - Yes."

Begs the question from me, what was the most consistent period of Everton's history against which you make your point, given we've never been trophy-less for the 26 years we're currently enduring?

Genuinely interested if you'd deign to reply.

Thanks.

Kenwright is about self promotion, full stop. Thanks to Jay, Christine and others for your clear and objective evidence.
,

"Ed" Prytherch (#199), well said on congratulating Christine and Jay on their re-posting of now ancient posts exposing Kenwright for the shyster he is.

Some of us realised what he is years beforehand, albeit the incontrovertible evidence now available to underpin us was unavailable at the time. We relied on his baseless words, lamentable performance and the excruciating pre/post match press conferences by his managers to underpin our opinion.

By the way, if you're connected to your Kenwright-stalwart namesake Kevin, please support him/her/it (I'm not gender fixated, honestly) to respond to my most recent query above.

Martin(#188); I think you've misspelled cheques and balances.

Great song Phil, and regarding Kenwright, it's what you might say to yourself, and that's what I can't wait for the man to do!

Don#197.
The name of the song is "Once in a Lifetime" not "Burning Down the House."
The title's the same as it ever was, (see what I did there?) it's never changed. 😉

Brian, David Byrne from Talking Heads is from Dumbarton. Dumbarton play Cowdenbeath. Cowdenbeath are known as the Blue Brazil. Richy is Brazilian. It will START Making Sense.

You asked for a fucking transfer, how gutted could you be ya fat git.

If you read the clip Jay Wood provides above you come to the conclusion, as Jay states, that Kenwright admits to being serially incompetent ten whole years ago, over twenty years since he entered our boardroom, or was desperately keen to avoid admitting what he genuinely knew (the Yanks call it "claiming the fifth").

Think about it, if the wheels had fallen off the club's business model at the time (and his answers in the Blue Union meeting portray a chairman alleging he was significantly unaware of huge chunks of the club's business model - and, by the way, has it ever had a credible one since Sir John Moores was healthy?) his alleged ignorance, as he portrayed it, would've assisted his Not Guilty plea in any future court proceedings, civil or criminal.

"Everton's greatest fan" is the bent creep's perennial claim for himself in Jay's clip. Yeah right. I have more respect for Bill Shankly when he used to turn up at Bellefield to try to advise us after Liverpool stuck their knife in his back.

BULLSHIT, I don't believe a word of it according to Ferguson, Bill apparently pleaded with him to not bid for him (at least not that early in his career) he wanted badly to hang on to him for a few more years) and I believe that scumbag Stretford had Newcastle started the bidding, that forced united to play their hand, a year or two early according to Ferguson.
Sorry Wayne, can smell the bullshit of your (latest) version from miles away, whether he made made up or whether its what he was made to behave by the vultures (pro-active, Stretford, even Alan dimwit Stubs was in that mix) of the time.
Made you kiss the united badge at Goodison too did they?

Just read a great but sad article on the Athletic by Simon Hughes.

Rooney's old school, De La Salle marked for closure.

A bit of a Liverpool institute in terms of producing footballers over the years.

I think Mick Lyons was there too, Danny.

Danny #208 – unfortunately, the only football-related thing to come out of Liverpool Institute (my old school) is our "greatest fan"!

Danny 208, possibly the only thing in this city that rivals EFC for incompetence is the Education Authority. Don't get me started!

On a lighter note: when my old school, Cardinal Allen (now Heenan), was being demolished to make way for a new build they invited all ex pupils to come and take a final nostalgic look at the old place. I went along with my two brothers and we were put into a group of about 10 to be "escorted" by a current teacher. Escorted = make sure we don't pinch anything!

Anyway as luck would have it our escorting teacher was an old mate of mine from university. I knew he was a horrible RS and he knew that I and my brothers were Chosen Ones, so I kind of expected a few comments. Sure enough, we arrived at the glass display case that houses various memorabilia of famous old boys.

The teacher could hardly contain himself; "Gentlemen, oh and you too, Ged, here we have an England shirt worn by the greatest player this city has ever produced: Steven Gerrard!"

I'd waited half a lifetime to be able to paraphrase that famous put down uttered by George Martin* and I immediately saw the opportunity to use it at last. With all the disdain I could muster I said, "Les, Stevie G la the best player this city has produced? Mate, he's not even the best player this school has produced!!"

"Oh yeah, well who would that be then, Ged? You maybe?" he sneered.

"No, Les, the great Colin Harvey. The White Pele."

Typical RS he tried to wheedle out saying that he meant old boys of Cardinal Heenan, and at this point it became clear that every single one of this random group of 10 were all Blues and the poor teacher was left in no doubt whatsoever that a school name can be changed but it's still the same school and that Colin Harvey is head and shoulders above him with the whiny voice.

*For anyone who doesn't know the story (surely no one on TW!), George Martin, The Beatles producer was asked by a reporter (probably an American one) if he thought Ringo was the best drummer in the world. George snarled, "Best drummer in the world? He's not even the best drummer in The Beatles!"

Brilliant Ged..👏
Although I'd always thought the infamous put down of Dingles most famous percussionist was attributed to a Mr Lennon

Gerard

In fairness you did have a distinct advantage over your RS opponent in that little exchange.

You were armed with the truth my friend

Gerard,

I was also a Cardinal Allen sufferer, and a contemporary of Colin, albeit a couple of years younger. Not only was he the better player, but I can also say he was a thoroughly decent lad, and grew to be a thoroughly decent human being.

Not sure you could say that about Gerrard, either!

Darren, loved your Stephen Stills line on the Hamez thread. We are where we are; let's go forward positively.

Great story Gerard and what a great corrective response!!

Listening to many on here and my own dad, I'd loved to have seen Colin Harvey play.

Will there ever being a bigger Evertonian to represent the club? Player for his boyhood club from a tender age. Coach, promoted to become the most successful first team coach we have had to date, manager and youth team coach. He pretty done it all with the club he grew up with and won trophies as player and coach.

The Colin Harvey scene on Howard's Way gets me every time.

Dave @174,

Spot-on!