Brian Murray incident

What are these resignations from the FAB? Is this true?

And Andrew – what's that all about, is that a joke??

I'm not techno savvy but my lad has said my photo and name have bere used in a spat with Jazz Bal. Not used that account since middle of last year, just want to clear that' up if the editor can clarify that to whoever,

Thanks Andrew. I'm not on Twitter so I don't see this stuff. If Brian Murray has done that, it's not very clever at all and that person should be apologising.

Are these resignations over that or in addition to something else? Seems like a lot going on.

Whilst we all want change – and I've been pretty vociferous on this – we don't want any violence, any name-calling in public, and we need to keep our heads to get the points across. Otherwise it just makes us look like a load of clueless bigots.

I sincerely hope this doesn't get out of hand.

Were these resignations because of the racist abuse, or for other reasons?

Hopefully Jazz Bal has reported Brian Murray to the club and the police.

Brian Murray made the suicide bomber comment and then apologised. He then posted that it wasn't racist and called people snowflakes for objecting. He is an utter scumbag.

Grim and depressing. This kind of stuff always bubbles up to the surface at times like this. I heard some of the most vile stuff I've ever experienced in Goodison during the derby under Benitez.

Of course, tomorrow's nailed on 3 points guarantees total harmony in the crowd.

Just looked at Brian Murray's Twitter. In one tweet underneath the offensive comment he says that he has apologised to Ajax twice.

Today, he is claiming: “I'm not techno savvy but my name n photo Been used in a spat with jaz bal apparently Everton. Connected My lad told me all this. Haven't used this account since middle of last year”

Barry,

They mentioned abuse in the FAB meeting but I'd assumed it was being directed at the board and Brian wasn't racist. Now those remarks make more sense. Outrageous behavior!

To say the least, the Brian Murray twitter post is not a good look, whichever "Brian Murray" posted it. Disgusting.

Assure you it's not this one as I've tried to get the bottom of it !

Kieran, I posted on another thread that Jazz Bal took some racist abuse on Twitter too. The world has gone mad.

Andrew

I saw that. I am hoping it's not the same Brian Murray who posts on here.

Brian Murray, told me that he confronted Jazz Ball, on a train the other week, and he said that Jazz, was a little bit worse for wear because it was remberence Sunday, so he had a little bit of respect for the occasion and pulled back.

Brian Murray has texted me to say he hasn't been on Twitter for about a year, and someone has hacked his account. A likely story, is what many people will say, especially because it does seem very coincidental, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, because I am of the belief that whilst sticks and stones will break my bones, names will never hurt me.

Feelings are starting to run very high now, but is there anything worse in this life, than people playing the blame game?

“Someone hacked my account “ who the fuck is he Prince Harry? why doesn't he come on and explain his “side” of the story, he's been on about Jaz Bal for months, since he gave an interview at the Liver on a protest day, I think he's a bit obsessed with Jaz, stop lurking in the shadows BM and come on and explain your racist twitter account,

Oh and BTW I'm not and never was RS.

Neither is Mike Gaynes as you once accused us of.

Accounts get hacked. Facebook, Twitter etc. It happens.

Those who have met Brian know he is an honest person, passionate Evertoinian and great individual.

See you at the Northwestern.

Out doing my duty and watching the Villa tonight with one eye on tomrrow.

I've met Brian Murray. Passionate blue? Absolutely. Racist? Absolutely not. Accounts do get hacked. Mine was, as Derek Knox, Keith Harrison and Mike Gaynes can confirm.

Jeff,

It does seem a bit improbable that a random hacker would hack his account and happen to Tweet about Jazz, who Bryan hadn't previously Tweeted about but who he has criticized on here and in person. If there was a "hack" maybe it was an Everton fan in his household? Or maybe he somehow didn't see the racist connection with the terrorist image and just meant FAB are causing more harm than good? I know that last point seems unlikely but I say it because when he was initially accused of being racist, whoever was operating his Twitter didn't seem to understand how it would have been perceived as racist. That person then apologized twice. Then supposedly the real Bryan came on and said "what's going on here then?" A bit weird for the "hacker" to have a apologized. So maybe he made a mistake with his analogies and is now furiously back tracking as he realizes it was construed as racist?

Well, Brian has posted here that his account's been hacked and used to get at Jazz Bal.

Link

Brian Murray has posted on here many times and I recall him being intelligent and articulate. I would be surprised if he had come out with that statement.

I remember a chant from the 70's and even (unbelievably ) the eighties, “Everton are white” I often wonder where those people are now?

The old "my account was hacked". Absolute rubbish. He says he hasn't used the account for a long time. Coincidentally, it must have been hacked by another Everton fan who hates Kenwright, Liverpool and continually tweets about Heysel.

And I think this is the comment by faux-Brian that angered people.

"Fab is just bills mouthpiece. Nsnow is the real fans. Not jaz suicide bomber look bal bull."

Who on earth would hack Brian's account to make a racist comment to Jaz?

Did the hacker witness thr previous confrontation between the two as Tony A alleges took place? At which point they thought to themselves' ‘I know, I will wait a bit and then hack Brian's Twitter to abuse Jaz?'

Also, looking at the Twitter thread, the mysterious hacker who decided to crack Brian's account to have a spat with Jaz actually says that he'd apologised to Jaz twice about the offensive tweet.

So, someone hacked the account to just racially insult Jaz and then also apologise twice too?

Strange thread.

I don't know Brian, but Andy Crooks and Danny who do, have both vouched for his good character

That'll do for me. Benefit of the doubt

Next

I take a slightly different view of this.

I was very shocked to see someone identifying the perpetrator of this abuse as a "ToffeeWeb regular" last night in the Chat panel of the FAB Zoom meeting that I was attending.

I was unaware of the posts that had triggered this on Twitter but, on subsequent investigation, I was shocked not only to read the original post from Brian Murray but the stream of bile generated in response to it.

I'm sorry but any so-called 'apology' that I was able to read was nothing of the sort, and showed absolutely no culpability or remorse whatsoever. Brian Murray has subsequently posted on ToffeeWeb claiming that it wasn't actually him at all and that his Twitter account had conveniently been hacked.

Sorry but the glaring similarities – not only in posting style and subject matter but the way Brian Murray has used his platform on ToffeWeb to slam the FAB in general and Jazz Bal in particular – is just too close for me to buy and renders his hacking claim highly dubious in my eyes.

Lyndon's attempt to separate online malfeasance on Twitter and on ToffeeWeb is flawed in my opinion and I think Brian Murray's suspension should be reimposed until he produces a fulsome and genuine apology – not only to Jazz Bal for a particularly disgusting original reference – but also to ToffeeWeb for subsequently bringing our name into disrepute.

I believe ya, Brian. Twitter has become a pile of poo since that megalomaniac lunatic took over.

James 23, lower case, when should be upper case, now where have I seen that before 🤔

Michael the guy is low life scum it doesn't take a genius to work it out,and yet some of our respected posters are in denial about him.

Brian Murray does not represent ToffeeWeb in any way shape or form. He didn't directly bring ToffeeWeb's name into disrepute as his comments on Twitter were not made in our name.

While the association with this website in the minds of some due to his frequent and long-time posting here is extremely regrettable, he is not a member of the editorial team and therefore his actions outside of this website should bear no weight where our reputation is concerned. (As such, I have removed the reference above to Brian's apology to Jazz on Twitter as it's irrelevant where TW is concerned.)

For the record, the comments directed at Jazz, who is a stand-up Blue doing a thankless task in very difficult circumstances, were utterly unconscionable and should be denounced by every Evertonian. They have no place in any discourse but the posting guidelines for ToffeeWeb govern conduct on this site and this site alone. What we, as an editorial team, might choose to do with regard to any articles that Brian might post in the future is another matter.

Brain says above: "Not used that account since middle of last year"

Yet compare these two posts, the first from Twitter on 2 January, well before all this nonsense blew up:

Get in. Klopp one ball boy attack from being finished in football— Brian Murray (@BrianMu20792896) January 2, 2023

And the second, apparently from the exact same Brian Murray, but this time here on ToffeeWeb, also on 2 January:

"Klopp only one ball boy attack from being finished in football..."

Posted 02/01/2023 at 19:44:33 @50 on the Premier League – Week 18 thread.

Twitter account hacked? Not used since last year? Yeah right.

Nice one Lyndon, like I said it doesn't take a genius to work it out, and yet loads are defending him, it's worrying tbh, and tomorrow we start accusing our Chairman of being a lying charalatan ( which he is) but some slagging him off think its fine to defend racist scum.

I like that response Lyndon, especially because I have just been thinking, that whilst the old world could be very brutal, sometimes this new world does come across as being very snide. I think it would be a better world, if people could meet each other half way, but maybe we would lose the irony.

Michael Kenrick 27 sums it up perfectly for me.

My view is the comment was the usual ill thought out tantrum seen far too often by others here and the web generally.

I doubt the racist connotation occurred to him possibly he was off his skull when he hit the keys - so many seem to be when in full flow.

Nonetheless it was a blockheaded comment although I imagine he thought it a bit of ribald banter at the time.

So I like what Lyndon wrote, and then think that Barry, has summed things up even more. Meet me half way, maybe there is hope for the human race after all!

Jeff, the comments are disgusting and indefensible. Brian Murry, whom I have met and liked, has denied making them. I have accepted that.

I've only engaged with Brian Murray a little on ToffeeWeb.

I was shocked at the statements attributed to him but was re-assured somewhat by the apparent apologies.

However Michael K #27 is stating that these apologies were anything but apologies?

I sort of see where you are coming from Lyndon, but for me, Michael makes a more convincing point. And just because it didn't happen on TW doesn't mean that it isn't suitable for discussion here. Besides, racist comments have occasionally appeared on here too. I once called someone out for making comments about Son's eyes... they gave the usual response about not being a racist etc. Some people need reminding that making a racist comment is being racist, however the comment was intended.

Memo to self; keep well away from twitter.

Brian Murray's silence on here tonight is deafening.

Oh he has apologists, bit like BK

I agree Stuart – the topic can absolutely be discussed here and racist behaviour should be addressed. I was just taking a very black-and-white stance on whether Brian should be banned/suspended for conduct outside of this website that wasn't undertaken in our name.

Fair enough Lyndon.

Derek #40

It's the comment...not the platform.

Twitter...ToffeeWeb...what's the difference?

And just because it didn't happen on ToffeeWeb, doesn't mean it isn't suitable for discussion here?

What are we doing if we are not discussing it, and who initiated the thread, even though he said he would prefer to draw a line under it?

I'm being lazy, but who has resigned from certain Everton fan groups today?

Jeff

I suspect he will stay off here and Twitter for a while. A few believe him, most don't. If he pops up again he's just going to draw more negative attention to himself

I'm starting to change my mind since MK's post 32.

It made me laugh that Colin.

The morale of this story. Don't go on twitter.

Lyndon,

I know you've tried to expunge reference to Brain Murray's so-called apologies from this thread because you say they are not relevant, but you have allowed his post @3 made to ToffeeWeb claiming that his account has been hacked.

I have suggested above that this may not in fact be true and that Brian Murray is using ToffeeWeb to dig this particular hole even deeper by making this apparently false claim, which comes on the back of his previous attacks on Jazz and the FAB, also made on ToffeeWeb, that you appear to be conveniently ignoring.

I just don't think you can draw the nice black-and-white line around this that you want to. The two are now fully embroiled.

I agree totally with Michael.

Racism, Lack of apology, calling people snowflakes for taking exception, dishonest assertion of hacking.

Similar posting styles on twitter and ToffeeWeb are damning as to the composer.

FFS Paul #49

Don't be racist, surely, is the moral?

What's it got to do with ToffeeWeb? Absolutely nothing. Any racist comments like that would be immediately called out and ban would follow.

The poster (whoever it was) probably reads the Daily Mirror or the Liverpool Echo too. I didn't see any comment that said “Brian Murray, a fervent reader of the Liverpool Echo, said these abhorrent comments” . Why would there be ? it's ridiculous.

Nothing to do with ToffeeWeb and a million miles away from the sentiment of 99.9 % posters here.

And Michael 27, that's pretty good detective work. But is it conclusive? There may yet be some explanation.

Brendan 52,

Right? It wasn't just me then wondering about posts 40 and 49.

Tony Everan

I am assuming Michael's concern is that someone identified him in conjunction with ToffeeWeb on a public forum and they presumably did so because in the context, he was engaging Jazz with regard to Everton, and as an Evertonian he is seemingly well known as someone who posts on ToffeeWeb.

Brian, you should self-censor and stay off both mediums. Even if you're innocent, the evidence in the court of public opinion is compelling and unless you can somehow prove your innocence this will follow you every time you post online. For a while at least.

Michael, the nuance of this is difficult to address on a text-based platform.

I removed my reference to Brian's apology to Jazz on Twitter from the original post because, having made the argument that Brian's poor conduct happened outside of this website, I didn't want to imply that I was lifting his suspension because he apologised. I lifted it because, as I have stated, his posting on Twitter does not violate our posting guidelines.

Nor does "attacking" Jazz and the FAB in the past (I'd have to see the comments to take a definitive stance) violate any guidelines if it wasn't abusive/racist, etc.

Now, if Brian wants to defend himself to comments made about him here by other members, then he can do so. Yes, it embroils the two platforms and we're in a very grey area if Brian continues to maintain he didn't post the offending tweet in the face of the evidence you post above but for now, there is a gate on his posts which means anything he attempts to post will be vetted first.

The simplest solution is as you suggest above – Brian posts a sincere apology to Jazz and to the ToffeeWeb community for the inadvertent but unfortunate association with his Twitter post and we move on. How individual members choose to judge and regard Brian is up to them.

---

Tony Abrahams: "and who initiated the thread, even though he said he would prefer to draw a line under it?"

I initiated the thread to address a situation that moved beyonds the bounds of the site last night and which was being discussed on different threads here by members.

We often collate off-topic comments into a General Forum thread so that people have somewhere to discuss the issue in a siloed area. I, personally, would like to draw a line under the whole issue but you are free to discuss away.

I'm intrigued and hope to learn from and about, people who are more intelligent than myself.

Far better he comes on here holds his hands up and admits to a daft mistake.

As I said earlier I don't think he was being deliberately racist just boneheaded and we're all guilty of that from time to time.

Alternatively come out fighting and get stuck in to all ethnicities and nationalities here to show at least he's a sharing kinda guy.

Kieran @55: Spot on! Good post.

Lyndon @56,

Agreed. My reference to previous attacks was to show consistency between his Twitter and ToffeeWeb posts and refute his hacking claim, not as any contravention of our Conditions of Use.

I think I'll leave it there.

Barry 58.

"Boneheaded and we are all guilty of that from time to time" ?????????

He said a blue of Asian heritage looked like a suicide bomber. Boneheaded my arse. It was racist and malevolent.

Ian 60,

That is your opinion and it might be right; equally, you might be totally wrong – you just don't know.

Barry 60,

I know it was beyond being boneheaded.

Interesting that Murray has tweeted his account was hacked so presumably he has gained control of it but has not deleted the racist tweet.

Brendan @52.

Deffo don't be racist. But if you didn't go on Twitter or the other stupid sites, you wouldn't get yourself in bother.

I obviously knew who initiated the thread, Lyndon, and was just pointing this out to Stuart @39 because of what he had written in that post.

I respect what you have done, Lyndon, and think I have very similar thoughts to the point I believe you are trying to make.

Barry Rathbone makes the most open-minded and sensible observation in this whole thread imo, when he says that he doubts the racist connotation occurred to Brian (if it was definitely Brian), but I do believe it's hard to move on, when some people don't want to draw the line.

Tony,

"if it was definitely Brian." The alleged "Brian" also posted this when Jazz initially responded to his racist remark:

"nothing personal... I confronted you on a train rememberance" (sic)

How would the hacker know your anecdote about Brian seeing him on the train on Rememberance Sunday?

Naw Paul #63,

You're missing the obvious point. If you express racist views... no matter whatever platform you're on... you're going to rightfully get judged.

Just don't be a feckin racist... I'm not saying you are BTW.

I shudder at some of the posts on this thread denying and downplaying the comment.

You get more criticism for saying the manager should be sacked or we should play two up front.

Exemplary editorial work on this thread. Open and complex.

The last racist (open) I remember on here was Jay Wood (Latvia), not to be confused with Jay Wood (Brazil). Both have long disappeared into he ether. The Brazilian Wood was a good poster despite being slightly pedantic at times. The Latvian fella was a bloody Holocaust denier.

Colin,

Despite the name, they were both easily identifiable by their posts.

Brendan @66.

I agree racism is disgusting. My point (probably not making myself clear): Don't post your views.

Colin #69

"The Latvian fella was a bloody Holocaust denier."

Seems like we now have a few racism deniers.

Tony #64,

My comment was a response to Lyndon's notes at the top about drawing a line under it, and it not being a TW matter. Made perfect sense to me, but then maybe I've had too much wine. Anyway, Lyndon has clarified his stance and I've acknowledged that.

Ian #67,

Despite being one of those people who has complained about your posts on managers, I couldn't agree with you more. 'He wasn't deliberately racist'. That would be a comic defence if it wasn't so tragic.

Kieran, easily distinguishable imo. Brazilian Wood was an erudite. Latvian Wood was a moron.

Paul #71,

Sort of see where you are coming from but when racist views are posted... we need to be united in our response. No excuse for it anywhere.

I understand where both Michael and Lyndon are coming from and both perspectives are valid.

It was indeed unfortunate that ToffeeWeb's name was mentioned in relation to the comment as it will reinforce the perception of negativity that some have about the platform. Irrespective to who actually posted the racist comment, both the name and reputation of Brian have been besmirched and that of ToffeeWeb through a "guilt by association" implication with the alleged poster.

Secondly, people use the web with a feeling of anonymity, often touting phrases like "freedom of speech" as a defence to hide behind personal attacks on social media platforms. They would never dream of saying such things to the person face to face.

As such, racist, discriminating or abusive comments are made by people who are exactly that but believe it has no personal consequence for them. It's not acceptable, why would you think it was? Because we all hide behind a keyboard, as some would say?

No winners in this latest fracas, only losers and victims, damage limitation required and apologies urgently needed, but more importantly, how can we ensure that we all stop and think before we hit the send button?

I only go on ToffeeWeb, Kieran, and when I heard from Brian today, he had said his lad was looking into his Twitter account because it had been hacked. I am pretty sure he's posted this on Toffeeweb about his confrontation with Jazz but it is still a story that Brian has personally told me

If I was Brian, I would come on and explain myself, especially having been called an utter scumbag. I wasn't aware that Jazz had Asian heritage (this is genuinely the first thing I've ever learned from Ian E) so this definitely makes this sound a lot worse now. I've been called a lot of these names myself over many years but thankfully it just gave me much thicker skin and probably even helped my personality (or lack of) develop along the way.

Ian E, I think if you ever expanded on what you write, then maybe people might begin to learn and find it easy to have a positive conversation with you, mate, but I personally think you tell me very little, whilst just continuously repeating your repetitive mantra.

I have to sày, I find this threàd a bit strange. This is a football site, things like this should be discussed somewhere else.

What, though, Brendan @75 is the right universal response and, extending that question, what offences are to be punished and by what sentences? Above all, who decides those questions and in accordance with what criteria?

Let them condemn themselves out of their own mouths but, for that to happen, they must be allowed to speak.

No problem, Stuart, and if you have had too much wine, then I hope you're enjoying it, mate!

I believe conversation is much easier when it's verbal, and my thoughts were that Lyndon had clarified his position the minute he made the thread, and was obviously just pointing this out. I might be wrong on this?

Paul,

Yes, it's a football media platform where one of its posters allegedly racially attacked another Evertonian. It has everything to do with football and its supporters because it's not acceptable.

Naw Tony #79,

Racists should never be allowed a platform of any kind. We're a better society to our minorities than that surely?

No worries all round. As for the wine, the plan is to drink enough to ensure that I sleep through the morning right up to the point that I need to leave for Goodison. The less time there is to think tomorrow, the better.

Just find out what IP address it was sent from, I think that's what you do.

I'm no Bill Gates.

Don't agree, Brendan @82, for the reason I've given.

It's the great temptation, and failing of modern liberalism, to assume that whatever is repugnant, it should be shut down.

Freedom is not about the virtuous agreeing between themselves.

Tony @79,

Common decency should dictate what people say, there would be no need for condemnation. There are extremes at both ends of the spectrum, from those who say we can say anything with total impunity, to those who see offense in every word.

People are not precise and often lack the means to adequately express themselves.

Stuart #83,

You doing an all-nighter as well?

I've only got eight bottles of Châteauneuf du Pape in the cellar... going to be a frightfully difficult 24 hours!

Tony,

But if his Twitter was hacked, he's got a serious stalker and should call the cops because this person has been spying on him for a while to learn about him, has posted for months on Twitter mimicking his other posts, all apparently as a build-up to discredit him with a racist post. That seems like an awful lot of trouble for someone to go to, don't you think?

Which is exactly what I was trying to say, when I used that line from a Black-Eyed Peas song, Christine! Will you meet me halfway, although when Everton went 14 years without winning a trophy from 1970 until 1984, I didn't expect that long wait would one day be doubled.

Christine @86,

But freedom demands that we should indeed be precise in our terms and express ourselves adequately. If we can't manage that then we have no business deciding what others can or cannot say.

Brendan #87,

Well, if I wasn't going to before this thread, I certainly am now! Got to extract some pleasure from the weekend while we still can...

Tony #85,

Love your view... problem is everyone else ain't like you (unfortunately) or me (also unfortunately).

Paul: "I have to say I find this threàd a bit strange. This is a football site, things like this should be discussed somewhere else"

It's also a community, though, Paul and we need to address things from time to time. Sometimes that's to discuss issues around the functionality of the site; sometimes it's to discuss the community itself.

Think of ToffeeWeb like a football pitch. Everywhere within the lines is where the game (in this analogy, the footy talk which takes place in all the sections of the site not called the General Forum) is played. Over there in the corner between the corner flag and the stand is a group of people talking politics. You don't have to go over there and either listen or engage if you're not interested. Just carry on playing football!

I'm not sure if this is true because I don't go on Twitter, Kieran, and when I hear people say "Call the cops", then I'm just glad that this is something that has never been in my vocabulary, mate!

You said it earlier, Kieran, leave it to Brian, and move on.

Ha ha Stuart #91

Seriously... don't overdo.

We want to be able to enjoy our win tomorrow...!

I don't know if Brian was hacked or not, but if someone was going to hack him in an attempt to get him in trouble, then surely they'd try to post in a similar style to his previous social media posts.

Tony,

I did say that and it's fair enough to bring that up. Hopefully tomorrow brings happier news.

Shane #96,

If I was looking to con someone out of 𧴜,000... I might go to that bother but... Brian wasn't hacked – he just unfortunately put both feet seriously in the shit.

I still hope he didn't mean what he said or what was interpreted by many as what he meant... but I'm sure Lyndon and Michael will give him the opportunity to put the record straight.

I have been working and that's why the silence has been deafening as some have said. I told Jazz personally on a train a few weeks ago what I thought of his stance on Kenwright (from his appearance on Sky) – his race or origin never came into it.

For what it's worth, my step dad is half-cast and if I need to apologise on here or to Jazz himself I will, but only over my sometimes abrasive views about our club. Not sure what else I can add to that and can see and understand some outrage as I was in the blue half of the kop in '87 when we beat them and incessant bananas were thrown on the pitch.

Never talked about it but my stepdad was with me at the time. As for the actual comment, I didn't and don't know how to delete it until I see my lad at game tomorrow.

I have never been on any sites such as Twitter so can't relate to any shit that happens on there.

I was a match-goer for decades though and, unless things have changed dramatically on the terraces, I think a lot of people will still be hearing abuse both aimed at our supporters for being “horrible scouse-robbing scumbags” or from elements of our own support singing some vile song to opposing supporters.

We've all been there and unfortunately it's part of football. Probably a lot less abusive than it used to be but still there.

Point of the post is that, if we are all this sensitive and righteous about these topics, we would have all long left the sport and started watching rugby. You know, that beautiful gentleman's game where they knock shit out of each other and then shake hands.

On a side note. The owner of our club treats us supporters with total contempt by telling us we will need to suffer on longer because he believes his board are doing a good job. I find this more difficult to swallow than an off-the-cuff remark from one man to another.

Seriously, Pete #100?

"Point of the post is that if we are all this sensitive and righteous about these topics we would have all long left the sport and started watching rugby."

Surely it should be that football should stamp out racism? No?

Pete,

Not being funny but last week you were talking about the abuse Tom Davies suffers. Him being someone who's paid a fortune to live our dreams.

Now you're saying fans, just regular average Joe fans, who pay to watch Tom and Co, should just shrug off abuse?

Brian #3

I just don't like being on Twitter, basically because I am completely unaware on how to use it and have a feeling that it could be used inappropriately. You have confirmed my worst fears and I will be taking myself off it with the help which Iof my son, which I am sure I will need.

Knew there was something wrong when your name came up, glad you are able to clear your name. I suspect that a few names used in outlandish attacks are bogus or hacked.

I don't know the individual who allegedly made the comment. But it (the comment) has been rightly condemned.

I find that these kinds of views tend to be voiced when the individual is confident that they have enough like minded people around them.

I always remember watching us play Spurs in the 90s. In the Street End, there was a lot of hissing. Then a young Sol Campbell strolled out of defence with the ball and the stand fell silent. One guy loudly shouted the N-word. The crowd generally sniggered. He'd judged the situation and the people around him perfectly. He had enough support to get away with it. I'm sure plenty were appalled (as a young me was). No-one said anything.

I'm not exactly sure what would happen in the same situation in 2023, but I'm pretty confident it would be different.

Which brings us back to this issue. The individual in question has learned that they misjudged that situation. The online crowd didn't snigger. They used their own freedom of expression to show what they thought of that comment.

I don't feel the right to force my beliefs on anyone. They can think what they want to think. Believe what they want to believe. That goes for a whole raft of issues. But society sets certain standards about how you treat others.

My view, don't ban. The point has been made. The response may have changed views... but even if it didn't, it's probably clarified the standards expected when we deal with each other. That's something more than nothing.

Live and learn.

Seriously Ernie #104

"I don't feel the right to force my beliefs on anyone."

It's okay to be racist then?

You have to have your account hacked for people to post stuff.

My lad nipped to the toilet in Uni without locking his phone. His mates took the opportunity to replace his portrait photo on Facebook with a picture of an erect penis.

My wife was most upset, as it was her mother who first noticed it!

Saw the furore over this earlier and was saddened (but not surprised) to see how quickly infighting and insults break out between supporters supposedly rallying to the same cause and how some rarely fail to play right into the hands of those in power, who are all too ready to portray disgruntled football fans as little more than thick as fuck, little Englander agitators, without giving them damn good reason.

Rather more surprised to see people on here posting in support of someone who made a brazenly racist comment and then sought to wriggle out of it with a story even Little Big Man would deem laughable, simply because they've shared a few words or a pint in the past.

I mean, quite a few of the Quing Dynasty lads were considered decent chaps and a right good laugh by their contemporaries, but shove them in front of the Shaolin Temple and it was soon fucking flying guillotines all over the shop.

Do hackers usually bother to go all Stanislavski on that shit and emulate the grammar, syntax and language of those they ‘hack', while taking pop shots at people the ‘real' account holder coincidentally has a big bee in his bonnet about? Are they also, quite eerily, able to recount real-life meetings between the ‘true' account holder and the unfortunate target of his Alf Garnett like gobshitery?

“You riled me with your sky comments saying your [sic] happy with the board and I confronted you on a train rememberence”, the hoople headed ‘hacker' states, three days ago, on the Twitter account the ‘real' account holder claims he has not been able to access for over six months.

So were you talking to the ‘hacker' or the real Brian Murray when he reeled off the exact same story to you, Tony? (“Brian Murray, told me that he confronted Jazz Bal, on a train the other week, and he said that Jazz, was a little bit worse for wear because it was remembrance Sunday”)?

Link

Seriously, if Brian did make the post in a moment of frustration, then I am sure he is hugely regretful. He made a huge mistake. It is really a part of the modern social media world though where a person makes a bad mistake or says the wrong thing, and people pile in in moral indignation.

But, it is a reminder to us all that passions and emotions about the club are in danger of going too far. Everyone on here has one thing in common – they love the club. But, there are far more important things in life, such as family, health and well-being.

As someone who has got involved in excessively heated debates on here from time to time, I think we should all try to turn over a new leaf on how we debate with fellow Evertonians about the club. Also, how we critique the manager, players and even our awful board. I don't think Lampard is doing a great job right now, but to see him called a ‘tot' and worse on here is not right.

Passion, strong arguments and wit are what characterise the best threads on here. Not personal abuse.

Steve #108

The really sad thing is that, for some, being anti-Kenwright even with racist overtones is defensible.

Steve,

I agree in broad terms about – I was going to say 'red mist' but 'blue mist' would be more appropriate. The Fan Advisory Board cancelled their in-person meeting set for Sunday due to security concerns!

I thought that was melodramatic but then I read some of the Tweets today aimed at Jazz and Co. It was horrifying. I don't know the guy but from attending the zoom call, he seemed just a decent normal sort of Everton fan. Maybe a tad cautious but then he's the one who has to go face-to-face with the board.

But people on Twitter are harassing this poor bloke like he's a Nazi war criminal. Imagine that. One of us fans gets elected by fellow fans to be on this board. It should be a proud and happy moment for him.

Now he's having to worry about his personal safety just because he agrees to use his free time to be a liaison between the rest of us and Bill Kenwright. People are passionate, they're invested emotionally and financially but for fuck's sake, we are all humans here...

Some smarter than others, some richer or poorer but we should be able to talk civilly with the real problem: the board, much less each other, our brothers in arms, fellows who could have been our school mates or pub mates who like us just love Everton.

To be clear, I'm not talking of Mr Murray who's been extensively debated, I'm talking about the countless numbers of other Evertonians ridiculing, abusing and threatening Jazz and others on Twitter. And that's just the public posts. God knows what kind of private messages the poor bloke is receiving.

Brendan #105...

Honestly, I don't care what people think. If they truly believe some people are more worthy than others, then why should I care? There are plenty of people believing similar things based on all sorts of prejudices. I don't think I get to choose that it's okay on, say, religion but not okay on race.

The kicker is that they only get to behave that way if people allow it. Society and community dictates that you behave in certain ways. You don't get to cause offence based on what you believe. You don't get to discriminate. These things will be called out and appropriate measures taken. ToffeeWeb is completely within their rights to dictate the acceptable behaviours on this site.

People all over the world believe all sorts of things. Why are your beliefs necessarily the 'right ones'?

Kieran,

I agree that people need to respect that others hold different views or want to follow a different approach.

Many of us may think Jazz is being naive in thinking that things will change at the top level of the club through active engagement in the FAB. But, he does not deserve dog's abuse or racist slurs for doing so.

Now on this ‘Brian Murray' account, he made a bad mistake which he really regrets. Rather than piling in, let's treat this as a critical turning point where we as fans set new terms and tone for the debates we are having.

Ernie,

I think your first post was very accurate. You can try and force people to accept a way of thinking but more effective is letting us self-police as it were.

If you shut people down, you don't change them, you drive them underground but, if the majority react in a way that shows someone is out of step, I think that's more likely to cause them to re-evaluate.

Steve,

I'm sure your last paragraph is correct but I think the issue is that publicly he's denying he did it. If he took ownership and said he fucked up, I think that would be the best route but publicly he's not saying that he's on this hack theory.

Steve,

Also, I don't know if it's fair to say Jazz is naive. Maybe he is. But on the other hand maybe he's very clever.

Consider his situation. He's got to sit down with the board who are seeking remedies and he knows most of us think the remedy is to get rid of them. Him engaging with them personally he's going to know more about their personalities, egocentricities etc.

I would imagine if he walked in there and said “you are the problem” the FAB would be shut down or he'd be replaced. I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt given he hasn't been in role long and has no real power that he as an Evertonian is trying to diplomatically navigate the choppy waters of a tough situation.

Hi Kieran, fair point.

A heartfelt apology would be right if he did it.

Personally, I do think the members of the FAB are being a bit naive in thinking they will be taken seriously by the board in their interface with the fans. If there was ethical senior leadership in place at the club, then maybe.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is the case.

Brendan and Keiran.

Fair enough boys but racism and abuse happens in all walks of life, not just football. I'm a Pommie bastard to some Aussies but no offense taken there as I look on it as banter and give a bit back.

Twitter is not a football thing anyway so just because this has happened between two Everton fans should not make it football related.

I'm not saying anyone can just shrug it off either but you won't see me jumping on the bandwagon of righteousness and purity. I've done my share of wrongs in life and often paid the price.

There's a situation in Australia right now where the premier of Victoria has had to come out and apologize for wearing an Adolf Hitler costume for a fancy dress party 20 years ago. For fuck's sake... the world has gone mad and I would hate to be growing up now and being monitored 24/7 in a way to make us all perfect.

Can any adult actually come out and say they have never done anything in their lives that would now be deemed offensive to someone or other? Very few I reckon.

Brian has now posted (#99) so I'm closing the thread. Let's focus all our energy on willing the boys to victory over Southampton instead.