Should we sell our crown jewels to comply with P&S Rules?

For a club of Everton's size to be in such a situation, caused by the very people who should have been watching over the club is at best annoying, at worst scandalous. Villa, Newcastle, Leicester City et al have been in similar positions and have usually had to spend a season or two in the Championship before being able to rebuild a squad suitable for the rigorous demands of the Premier League.

Whatever happens with sales and purchases of players, the squad can't afford any passengers, and Dyche's team will have to hit the ground running, else the new season could prove to be more difficult than the previous two.

If you sell your assets after the horse has already bolted you get relegated!

If you don't sell, get points punishment and get relegated they go anyway.

Ride out the storm is what we are doing and what we should do.

If the punishment is too harsh we appeal and it takes longer etc.

Too many ifs and buts until 25 October when we find out our outcome. Until then, we should hope we have a great start to the season, take the 10-point deduction and hope we scrape through again.

We should only sell those players that are not considered key players, like Keane, Holgate etc and use those funds to get a decent striker.

We should be building a side around the likes of Pickford, Onana and our better players – not looking to sell them.

If it doesn't happen before 30 June, it makes no difference to P&S for 2022-23! But it will figure into the P&S calculation for 2023-24 and the next 2 years.

Let the shit journos write their crap – when it's official from the club then believe it. 🤷

Regarding P&S, we will be in compliance going forward based on the fact that we have a) sold £128M worth of players since June last year and b) are continuing to pare back the wage bill.

We're probably going to have to sell a big-name “crown jewel” if we're to bring in the number of players we need of the right quality. Whether we should sell the crown jewels in order to make big-money, marquee signings for tens of millions of quid and still remain P&S-compliant is a different question (and an approach we're unlikely to take, IMO).

You could argue that selling Onana at £35M is not worth doing, but selling at £60M is.

Likewise Pickford, selling at £30M isn't worth bothering with; £60M, yes. Doucoure is very useful to the team in that advanced midfield position, but if someone offers £20M for a 30-year-old with 1 year left on his contract, then yes.

Demarai Gray, 1 year left, if Al Hilal offer £12M, yes.

Of course then it's over to Thelwell to spendwell.

Change the faces on the board… can you change the attitude? Who says the new members won't be as bad as the last 3 – they will probably be told to toe the line or you'll join the other 3! 🤷

I am not convinced that there will be any funds available for Dyche, so it will be up to him create something extraordinary to keep us in the Premier League. Disastrous ownership and club management staying put guarantee that he is our only possible saviour.

Last two seasons have shown that we can't survive even a 3-point deduction; more than that means absolute relegation, no way around it. But as we know now, there is nothing else but a relegation scrap on the cards so hopefully that will keep us focused.

If we absolutely have to sell someone, I think Keane or Holgate could be sold… and as a last resort Onana.

I wouldn't sell Pickford, Doucouré or Gray.

He might be the forward version of Per Krøldrup – where he needed to be taught to head, Maupay needs to be taught to score. 🤷

Nobody was mentioning the need to sell big time before the relegation fight last season, but then suddenly "Oh yeah, we've got to sell Richarlison or we're in trouble" and the next day he was gone.

Then in January. last week of the month and suddenly "Oh yeah, we needed to sell Gordon cos of P&S Rules."

And now, here we go again. I'm starting to wonder whether our idiot owner is just using this as an excuse to get some of his losses back before he sells up.

Presumably they viewed the squad as good enough to toddle along in mid-table without further spends under a very experienced manager as a great plan. The possibility of then selling up on favourable terms being a distinct possibility.

As usual, they were grotesquely wrong.

The eye-watering desperation since is perhaps the biggest confirmation (without actually announcing it) that we are financially hamstrung. In which case, we have no other option than to sell whoever we can. We are in fire sale territory.

Grim to see some only just wakening up to the truth of the Moshiri and Usmanov catastrophe. It really is a different scale to anything in the illustrious history of this great institution.

It changed the narrative of our once great institution to one of survival – a long time before Moshiri and Usmanov decided to appoint Benitez for exactly those same reasons that you quote.

Wake me up when it's all over – when I'm wiser and I'm older – I didn't know we were lost.

Personally, I think Gordon and Kean being banked this year should keep the monopoly protecting cancer that is P&S from the door again for now. But I don't believe we can spend at all (this summer, not just this week) unless we can sell first.

I'm also hopeful that Tyrer, Branthwaite, Warrington and Cannon can step up and at least plug the gaps of Coadys, Davies, Begovic, etc. Bench players for bench players perhaps, but there's hope there of a diamond or two.

Whilst fully expecting to see Gomes and Dele Alli sent out on highly subsidised loans, I'm also wondering if Dyche may surprise us and try to take one or both under his wings a little for depth too. Maybe there's a negotiation with Levi that'd see us pay the £10M and an agreement with Dele to reduce the wage in return for 2-3 years instead of 1.

Bit “risky” I guess, but maybe no more risky than throwing £20M at a Harrison or Gnoto perhaps. Maybe a bit of love and stability is what he needs after seeing Turkey fail. I suspect that'll depend on how he comes back to pre-season though.

If we're really lucky, we may generate some cash from Keane, Holgate, Gray or Iwobi and that generates enough for a Harrison or Gnoto risk. Can't see us getting big money for either Pickford or Onana this summer, tbh. Expect both to stay for now and be next year's sacrifice instead.

Stability will be the aim from here. 1 or 2 out, and maybe 3 or 4 in. 2 on loan, one for peanuts and one “signature” signing for £30-40M on the never-never over the next 7 years. I'd settle for that right now if that £30-40M is a striker who replaces Calvert-Lewin, not covers for him.

We won't have to worry about an end-of-season escape as we'll be down by Christmas if the situation doesn't change soon.

For the life of me, I can't remember his name but the guy who brought Rooney to the club (Ray ???) lived next door to my nephew and told him ages before Rooney wanted out. He simply couldn't stand Moyes so, come what may, Rooney was leaving.

I don't dispute it suited the club financially; the same guy said the banks were getting real arsey so Man Utd had us over a barrel. But that was the state for all beyond the old Sky 4. (Not quite right: Liverpool effectively went bust because they kept spending beyond their means.)

It could be argued that being the only club outside of that group not to get relegated as a result of the trade is deserving of some kind of credit but I can't see that as a possibility in chez Abrahams.

Rooney told us himself not so long ago how he was stitched up, just like Franny Jeffers, and very recently Anthony Gordon.

They all left so it's very easy to give them stick, but the common denominator is what you said before, Barry. With the club being in survival mode, then those young scouse kids were made into the sacrificial lambs, and I honestly believe relegation is coming if things don't change quickly within the club.

It's why I'm like a dog with a bone, Barry, because if there is one thing I think I understand, then it's football, and right now it's obvious that Everton need to change both the toxicity levels and also bring in some new players. Otherwise, I'm absolutely certain we will not escape for a third time.

I bow to your superior knowledge re Bob Pendleton but his name doesn't ring a bell like it should, I don't think he's the neighbour.

In my minds eye, the guy I'm wittering about became head of recruitment or something not that it matters. If the tale is true, "sacrificial lamb" seems a stretch to me.

Yes Barry, those sacrificial lambs will have all made millions out of leaving Everton, but you can’t deny that they were all hung out to dry.

Maybe the man’s name was Ray Hall, although there was also another man called Ray Minsuall, who held a prominent role with the younger players, all those years ago.

Bingo - Ray Hall.

But at the risk of boring people again I have to repeat "it's all about perspective".

How many other clubs fend off perceived bigger clubs after their better players?

Southampton had that fantastic period of churning out top players but sold them all eventually getting relegated and virtually bankrupt. PSG are struggling to defy Real Madrid's approach for Mbappe it's just the way the game works.

I'm not sure I believe anyone from outside is actually telling Everton to sell players. The way it should work (but this might be extending some seriously unearned credit to our possibly incompetent financial team) is that the accountants and money managers inside Everton should (hopefully!) have a handle on the balance of the accounts as year-end approaches, and they should have a decent estimate of the profit (if only!) or loss the club is expected to make at the end of the financial year at the end of June.

Then they have to run the 3-year rolling Profitability and Sustainability calculation as stipulated by the Premier League for all clubs, to see what Everton's accumulated 3-year loss is. If they expect that figure to be above the prescribed limit, and there is still time to get a big sale set up before the end of June, then they may decide to try and make it happen.

That sounds straight-forward but I think the claimed P&S breach makes that calculation much more uncertain, because a chunk of the 2021-22 costs or losses may get disallowed or recategorized by the independent commission, likely increasing our losses and having a knock-on effect for the current year just ending (2022-23) and for the next Financial Year (2023-24).

Thanks for the good informative discussion, I was just working through the Onana dilemma. I think Barry's comment on Southampton gives us a view to our problem. Robert has often pointed out the mismatch of our player assets and exit terms are killing us.

We may be looking at a Dyche rebuild with some view to future windows. This will limit our chances for a player that will raise the whole team like a James or Lukaku. Okay, bummer but this is likely a trick of lower-level difficulty for Dyche.

In which case I would go No - do not sell the crown jewels. We may have to talk about Onana but we should resist for the player trajectory and reputational reasons. We could worsen our problem if we can't avoid injuries and we are back in the market. Play it tight and see if Thelwell can supply Dyche to reup the 4-5-1 and 3-5-2 that worked at minimal cost and hope for some early results.

We can't sell any full-backs, Coleman, Mykolenko, and Patterson. We can't sell any centre-backs. We need to bring Branthwaite back.

Midfielders - Gueye, Garner, Doucouré, Iwobi, and Onana. I don't think we can sell unless we can get top odds for Onana and replace him with a player capable of stepping straight into the team for a decent profit.

I have expressed a concern about Onana being a show pony but the pass he laid on for McNeil's second goal against Brighton was pure class and has me having second thoughts.

It's in the forward line we need to do the business. If anyone will take them Maupay and Simms. In my opinion, we must retain Gray.

We all know the area we have to strengthen – centre-forward. So any money we have to spend has to go on that position.

You should remember Ray Minshull, he was Everton's Youth development officer. He had a photo of himself in his office, as part of the Liverpool team that won the league just after the war.

We were in his office together offering you the chance to sign schoolboy terms with the club. I said I was more interested in you finishing your education at school before signing for Everton or any club.

Which was a load of bollocks because I knew other clubs were interested, including Liverpool, but hanging on got you a few weeks holidays training with Man Utd and Nottm Forest including a nice week in Italy with Forest before you got an apprenticeship with Forest.

What an agent I was for you getting you those little perks but not a bleedin' carrot for myself, although I got rid of you for a few weeks for a couple of years in the summer and Christmas so there were some benefits!

Given the endless and continuing gross negligence and recklessness of Moshiri and his self-serving acolytes, some now gone, but still chiefly there in Kenwright – the main culprit by far – it's crystal clear to me that our club is devoid of choice regarding expenditure for next season's new signings.

Moshiri has lost a fortune in investing in Kenwright and the stadium, to the cost of us fans, never mind himself. And now he allegedly implores him to stay on!

What sort of a pillock is Moshiri?

Ray Hall was a gentleman. As I've said before, he was very complimentary and, alongside Terry Darracott, reassured me and made a very nervous teenager very welcome at Bellefield.

With regards to the players mentioned, ideally I wouldn't like to lose any of them.

Pickford has his errors, which goalkeeper of players doesn't? But he has saved us. Unless we can pull a Nigel Martyn out of the bag, we'll struggle to replace him. Suggestions welcome.

Onana is raw and young, but is going to be a good player.

I definitely wouldn't sell Doucoure and Dyche pushing him forward on the counter is possibly one of the reasons we stayed up.

It seems, according to the rumours, we could get anywhere between £12 - £17M for Gray.

Again, not a player I would ideally like to lose, but for a £1.7M outlay, that is not a bad return.

Don't read The Sun.

Elton John's latest single (remember those?) was called ‘Sad Songs', quite apt nowadays.

Alan@27,

Correct Alan, quite mischievous…….🤦🏼‍♂️

If we sell Pickford then to me our first choice should be to try and get Henderson from Man Utd? Doesn't seem wanted there and far too good for Forest.

Watched Elton last night.

I guess that's why they call it the blues always gets me.

A good rendition, but not as good as the last one I heard in the Winslow last time out.

If we were doing something mischievous or wrong and hurt ourselves in the process, she would say - “He'll slap it into you”. 😂 I think that came from her upbringing in Glasgow. Still makes me chuckle thinking about it.

Or - if she suspected us of having been up to no good (she could read us like a book) - “Be sure your sins will find you out”. (How right she was!)

Ray Minshull was the Youth Development Officer when Tony went to Bellefield. It was in 1984 when Everton won the cup and Tony, along with a load of other young players, was invited to that cup final and they all went down on a coach together. Meanwhile, I had the job of jibbing in his cousin to watch the game!

If I'd been naughty, she would threaten me with "You'll be put in a home with your ears pinned back"; or tell me "You're not going out looking like the Wreck of the Hesperus". And many more.

She's been dead 30 years now, but the sayings still go round my head!

Maybe I even played alongside Tony, although I obviously didn't get as far as him.

No shame though. Only a very minute percentage make it.

I enjoyed the experience and can say I was recognised to have trials with Everton, which makes me proud.

My playing career was disrupted by my Army one, but playing Army standard is a very high level. Surrounded by players who had been on Newcastle's books, played for Norwich, others who had played for Newport (in the Football League), Bristol Rovers, Wigan and Lincoln City amongst others.

It's just about enjoying the game. I was decent, just not quite good enough. And there is also the element of getting the break.

Like you, I watched Elton last night – what a tremendous show.

I remember the 1984 Cup Final where Carter and Elton went round Wembley together. Then, when they got near the Everton Fans, Elton started walking towards them clapping, at first our fans were booing but undeterred he kept walking towards us and the boing turned to applause.

Also, Elton was in tears when they played Abide With Me. I can't think of a Chairman of another club who was as well-liked as Elton.

We made £130M off the sales of Richarlison, Gordon and Kean alone last year with nowhere near that amount spent and the year before I believe we didn't spend much more than we brought in player-wise.

We've lost a good chunk of the wage bill last few years with James, Richarlison, Mina, Davies, Digne all going.

In theory, if it wasn't for the new stadium, we'd be close to the reset where we could have a bigger spending window. However, a certain Oligarch who was pumping a lot of money into said stadium leaving changed everything for us.

The £130M investment is going straight to the stadium and it looks like, in terms of buying players, we need to sell in order to actually be able to buy.

That being said, that's only what I've heard and reality is we won't know because the club certainly like to keep us in the dark.

I think the perfect example of how much real application and genuine fitness can help a player is when I look at our first team coach. Steve Stone, good player, absolutely brilliant work rate, and a player who never went missing on his teammates, and what a fine career he had because he possessed attributes that can be really underestimated unless you're lucky enough to play alongside such players.

Rule number one is get as fit as humanly possible. I wish my agent would have told me this!

I find it amusing with us even being linked or associated with any decent players!

I also heard yesterday that our Captain is not happy with what's on the table for another year!

We are in a serious mess.

I'm undecided whether or not, to submit an article. If I do, it will be from a 1906 original publication, "Association Football and The Men Who Made It". There were four volumes, but unfortunately my Uncle Tommy may have loaned Volume 1 to a friend and it was never returned, the remaining 3 were passed on to me on the death of my Uncle Tommy in 1986.

Here is a poem from volume 3.

There was a chap who couldn't run
Whose playing days were long since done,
And consequently he was free,
To rule the game as referee.

His vision, it must be confessed
Was scarcely of the very best,
But yet he generally could see
Enough to take his weekly fee.

Sometimes the ball was near him, then
He got mixed up amongst the men,
But always he preferred to stay
Where he was furthest from the play.

'Twas FA cup ties and the "Lines"
On which he had his chief designs,
Such matches are a pleasant task,
They always pay you what you ask.

A referee can't be too old
While he has strength to take the gold,
Perhaps he cannot run or see
But all the same he'll referee.

Some things never change.

1) He came to a meeting of supporters in London years ago, and when asked how much money was available for transfers said, "I'm not telling you lot."

2) When interviewed by Sue Lawley on Desert Island Disks (again, years ago), he was asked about finances. He used the expression, "box and cox."

Putting these two items together:

1) He is sufficiently experienced as a negotiator not to reveal his hand in terms of what is going to be the sum of money available for transfers.

2) He most likely won't know what is going to be possible at this point, because player sales are uncertain.

3) There will probably be some form of financial engineering going on (the boxing and the coxing, I guess), that will in the end enable us to do some decent deals.

I wish something would happen - anything - on the player front so we can get an inkling of what's in the wind...

...or not!

Results Business podcast, Episode 3

I was never really sure about what he meant, and had to look it up.

In the end, I interpreted it as selling the same service two times over to two people who were ignorant of the existence of one another.

I've often wondered whether the phase might have been more revealing than its speaker had intended.

Although a few more than just one farce I'd say.

Despite the fact that my threat of posting the contents of a book published 117 years ago hasn't gone down too well, I'm going to take a chance and submit the article as fast as a one-finger typist can manage.

As I've said a few times, aside from the jubilation of having witnessed Everton witness the first trophy in my life after the disappointment of the League Cup, I was more concerned about getting home. There I was, a few weeks out of plaster after a broken leg and my dad trying to climb over the fence to invade the pitch.

Besides, as a teenager, there were many others in front of me trying the same, so I couldn't really see a lot at the end, but I enjoyed it and got home.

Tony, it was an experience. I was relatively small at 13 years old, so it was tough for me. I didn't really do my growing until I was about 17 or 18. A late developer. It is a tough sport and fitness is a massive part of it. Ability is one aspect. Ability, fitness, attitude, desire and commitment.

Now I know my memory sometimes plays tricks on me but I think Carter and Elton were in the back of a limo going round the ground, and Elton definitely came over to the Everton fans behind the goal.

I was lucky enough with a friend to get tickets for the Players Banquet that was in the Royal Lancaster. It was a great night! John Bailey was still wearing the hat he ran round Wembley with after the win.

I was lucky enough to sit on Peter Reid's table with his parents and brothers, Reidy let me hold his winner's medal.

Thanks, yes, that does clear things up a lot. I am still left with the concern though that we are not being levelled with (if another sale goes through this week).

I just don't see how we can sell £120M worth of players in 12 months, and for us to still have to find another £50M now. I know we've brought some players in, but we've banked nearly £70M in the last 6 months. I just can't comprehend how we could still need to add another £50-£60M to that in so short a timeframe.

Because not everyone is from Liverpool.

Is there scope for add-backs at all? Obviously there was a Covid adjustment but what about issues like having a manager leave and paying out agreements, the Gylfi thing?

In terms of player purchases and sales, it appears they are considered revenue items (included in the Profit & Loss Statement, not the balance sheet) wouldn't a direct cost method adjust the profit or loss, for example?

The traditional direct costs, cost of goods sold is:

Opening Stock
Plus Purchases
Less Closing Stock

So (just using random easy numbers), say we sell players for £30M, started the financial period with players valued at £50M (do we value at cost or the market or replacement value?), purchased players for £20M, and we end the financial period with players valued at £40M. Then the calculation would be:

Sales: £30M

Less Diret Costs (Cost of Goods Sold)

Opening Stock: £50M
Add Purchases: £20M
Less: Closing Stock: £40M
Total cost of Goods Sold: £30M

Sales less Costs of Goods Sold (Gross profit): Nil

I also read that they amortise the contract too – isn't that double-dipping as you are presumably counting the wages paid throughout the year?

Of course I could be missing if there is a specific model used in the industry but some thoughts nonetheless.

To me it signifies the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.