West Ham game set to go ahead on Sunday

12/09/2022 313comments  |  Jump to last

Everton's next scheduled Premier League fixture, against West Ham Utd at Goodison Park on Sunday, 18 September, is expected to get the green light to proceed despite The Queen's state funeral taking place the following day.  

The UK government met with all major sporting bodies, including the Premier League, this morning with the intention of encouraging next weekend's fixtures to go ahead under police advice and ‘wherever possible’ following the controversial decision to postpone all games last weekend that prevented fans from paying their respects in the traditional manner.

The Liverpool Echo reports that a game-by-game decision-making process has been implemented by individual clubs’ advisory boards – with the main concern being levels of available police.

Hundreds of thousands of mourners are expected to flock to London over the weekend to pay their respects to The Queen, in addition to foreign leaders also flying into the country, with officers likely to be redeployed in the Capital from across the country, which could compromise games set to take place elsewhere.

Article continues below video content

Most matches taking place in London have been called off, although Brentford vs Arsenal is going ahead at lunchtime on Saturday as planned, and  even though it would have taken place in the northwest, Manchester United's clash with Leeds United was deemed too high profile and has also been postponed.


Reader Comments (313)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer ()

Jerome Shields
1 Posted 12/09/2022 at 08:45:17
What a relief – the return of sanity.
Martin Reppion
2 Posted 12/09/2022 at 08:55:01
The cancelling of sporting events, particularly grass roots football, was a massive misjudgement and over reaction.

People who feel affected by last week's events have the opportunity to take time out. That is understandable. But for many, the enforced loss of their leisure activities will simply antagonise them even more against an establishment that seems to be distant and aloof.

On the other hand, postponing the Arsenal game means we may have Pickford and Calvert-Lewin available for the rearranged fixture. Every cloud...

Peter Carpenter
3 Posted 12/09/2022 at 08:57:00
Thank god for that! Although I may still be too upset to attend.
Anthony Murphy
4 Posted 12/09/2022 at 09:23:15
The Chelsea v Liverpool game will get postponed, I reckon.
Alan McGuffog
5 Posted 12/09/2022 at 09:43:21
As a kid growing up in the '50s and '60s the football season ended with the cup final in the first week of May, usually. A ball was not kicked in anger again until the end of August.

The intervening months were given over to cricket. However did we survive?

Mark Andersson
6 Posted 12/09/2022 at 09:53:11
WALOB.. no matter what your point of view...
Brian Harrison
7 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:13:00
This will give us a good chance of recording our first win of the season, and much needed it is. West Ham haven't started well either so they will be desperate to get something from the game, but a win will take a bit of pressure off Lampard and the team.

Also, with the enforced break, it will have given Gueye a bit longer to get to know the style of the team, and it will have given Calvert-Lewin a further week's training.

I think after you have played 10 games it gives a good idea of how the season will pan out, and with the break for the World Cup in November, it's imperative that you aren't in the bottom 6.

Many owners of teams who are struggling will see the World Cup break as an ideal time to ditch a manager and give his new manager 3 to 4 weeks to work with his squad and asses what will be needed in the January transfer window.

Tony Everan
8 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:29:41
Quite right too, I can understand the London games being off, but there no reason to cancel the rest.

We will be stronger for this game, Calvert-Lewin, Doucouré, Garner all back and in contention. It's good news that Frank will have options and a selection headache. Also that players will be focused as there are alternatives waiting for their chance to impress.

Looking forward to the game, it's a great opportunity to get our first win and I'm much more confident than I have been for a long while.

Danny O’Neill
9 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:43:26
Let's show our respects to Her Majesty as we could have done last weekend. And do so respectfully.

Regardless, the first win against a London club.

I too can see the London fixtures potentially being called off for policing and security reasoning. I can see the logic in that if it happens.

And if so, it stops that shower doing their thing. Always outraged, never embarrassed. Chelsea v Liverpool is probably a fixture where there are the fewest amount of away coaches as many use the tube to get home or head to Paddington for the Great Western train to Exeter and Plymouth.

A sly dig and I appreciate we have great following from the South West as well as London, Wales and all over the globe. And coming from someone who heads back in the opposite direction when I visit Goodison. Forgive my childish petulance and stereotyping. Sometimes I can't help myself when it comes to them.

Blue boys are on the rise.

Neil Cremin
10 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:05:54
Agreed Jerome.

Thanks, Michael, for giving us a thread where we talk about Everton and football matters again and leave HRM to rest in peace.

Hopefully getting our first win against our old boss. It won't be easy as they are in the same predicament as us but we must believe.

Michael Lynch
11 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:16:08
Really hope they don't call this one off, especially now the trains are running cos they've postponed the strike!

Assuming it does go ahead, and there is a minute's silence – or even the playing of God Save The King – I really hope all of our fans can avoid copying the embarrassing RS morons, and show some respect, whatever your political beliefs. It'd be no better than booing the taking of the knee.

Neil Cremin
12 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:16:48
Just checked into EvertonFC website.

Interesting to see that we have 3 Goalkeepers, 10 Defenders, 7 Midfielders and 8 Out on Loan and 0 Forwards on the Team Tab. Interesting.

Brian Harrison
13 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:32:22
According to Sky Sports News, there is still a chance that some games may be called off this weekend, and it depends on each game and if the required amount of Police can be employed.

I thought this would just affect maybe London clubs, but they are saying Man Utd's home game might be affected as the Manchester Police is the biggest outside London and they will have many of their officers policing the Queen's funeral.

I think in fairness to fans and clubs alike they should be making that decision now not delaying. They must be well aware of numbers of police required at grounds and also to police the funeral.

John McFarlane Snr
14 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:33:01
Hi Danny [9] my main concern was the cancellation of the Bramley Moore get-together, where we can discuss any topic we like, and trade insults face to face.

My Young Lady says that according to her tablet, the Premier League are considering the possibility of reversing the fixtures of some London-based clubs. For example, what should have been a Chelsea vs Leicester City game would be Leicester City vs Chelsea, thus easing the strain on the police force.

Danny O’Neill
15 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:43:16
I don't know about trading insults, John Senior. It would probably be more a case of you schooling me about my random outbursts!!

Totally agree, Brian. The Met will need to call on the resources of other forces from around the country. If they are going to do it, just make the call early.

Tom Bowers
16 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:54:10
Despite the encouragement of the derby match result, it goes without saying that we have to get the season started with a win.

Getting a full squad fit again is always a help and, apart from Pickford, that's looking like a possibility at the moment.

It won't be easy (never is) as the Hammers, despite also starting slowly, still have the weapons to be very dangerous.

It's already turning out to be a strange season and with the unfortunate events of late, Covid, the Queen and then the World Cup break, one can only speculate what's coming up next.

Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, I do think that Lampard is slowly getting the response he wants from this squad and quite possibly we will be in a good position come the New Year.

Brian Wilkinson
17 Posted 12/09/2022 at 13:38:42
If all goes ahead, I will finally get to my first ToffeeWeb meet up, and trust me John McFarlene Snr, I am looking forward to meeting you and a few others.

Always enjoy reading your post John and a perfect gentleman.

Here’s hoping our game go ahead.

The last time I got to meet Danny was against West Ham, when he turned into Phil Spector, and brought his wall of sound with him, in the Crown :-)

All good banter though.

Danny O’Neill
18 Posted 12/09/2022 at 13:49:58
I do tend to attract them, Brian. West Ham (one of them texted me to offer a ticket for the return fixture last season), Chelsea, Crystal Palace.

Ironically the only ones that don't seem to take to me are our city cousins! I can live with that.

Michael Lynch
19 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:00:23
So Thursday's Arsenal Europa game is off because of policing issues, but Chelsea's tie on Wednesday goes ahead.

Has logic gone completely out of the window now?

Michael Kenrick
20 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:08:30
Neil @12,

I know people see only what they want to see but it might be worth another check.

I see 7 Forwards.

But maybe they are not really there?

Ian Jones
21 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:16:40
I've also just read that..

'Premier League football's return faces a problem with a lack of TV TRUCKS - with Sky News' needs for covering the death of the Queen putting a strain on Sky Sports' resources...

Martin Reppion
22 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:37:35
Ian #21

Why do we need Sky TV trucks for a football match to take place?

Football took place for well over a hundred years before Sky came to the party. If they haven't the resources to screen the games, it is they that are in breach of the contract.

Fans could maybe do something radical, like turn up and watch the games. After all, it is really only 'Live' when you are there. Despite what their current advertising campaign tries to point out.

Pete Gunby
23 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:44:32
Let the VAR tv teams cover the funeral. They’ll get all the names wrong, miss all the important bits and probably declare that the Queen was diving and is actually alive.
James Lauwervine
24 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:47:34
Danny #9. Rather presumptuous your first line with the "Let's".

You obviously have your view, mine is the polar opposite, so I'll give that a miss thanks.

Stu Darlington
25 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:50:13
I hope the game goes ahead and we can get back to some kind of normality. Everton don't seem to respond very well after too long a break from competitive matches.

For me, it's a difficult game to call though, as West Ham have some game-changing players, but can often blow hot or cold. Depends on which team turns up.

With our midfield and defence playing well, however, we should be able to cut off the supply to their danger men and put them under some pressure.

I still worry about where our goals are coming from though.
I think there will probably be only 1 goal in it: 2-1 or 1-0 to Everton.

Will Mabon
26 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:07:20
Won't be long 'til the utility bills, transport and other costs are causing game cancellations... or at least, attendance.
Brian Murray
27 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:08:37

Nearly every time, after an international break or whatever, yes we let ourselves down but I'm hoping this new strong Everton mentality is us from now on. We are slowly weeding out all the weak as well as bad players.

To me, the likes of Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson, Keane, Gomes etc are a thing of the past. Strength is almost as important as talent in this league.

Danny O’Neill
28 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:23:02
That is your right, James. One that you are entitled to exercise.
Eddie Dunn
29 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:33:52
I can't see how the games in London can go ahead as there will be so many people en route to the Capital that public transport and especially coaches will be severely delayed.

If our game does take place, I expect a defeat. I watched West Ham in the Europa thingy last week – they look to be rediscovering their mojo with Antonio looking a real threat.

Without Pickford, we would be in the Championship and we would have lost to the classless ones. I am happy to wait on our talisman to return.

Brian Wilkinson
30 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:38:19
I would not worry about the other lot not taking to you, Danny, strange bunch them over the Fjords.

Not sure where others lie in regards to the National Anthem and Abide With Me, but I can say the cup finals I have been to, I have never had cause to boo the national anthem, and certainly not the cup final hymn Abide With Me.

Yet the media justify their reason, I do not claim to be a full royalist, but I would never boo our national anthem, and would feel a bit more comfortable if the media got it right, instead of labelling Everton as scousers and therefor it must be Everton as well as the Red shite that disrespect the National Anthem.

If you're not happy with it or Abide With Me, then just don't sing it, or boo, if you are a Blue.

Stu Darlington
31 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:39:38
Yeah, I hope so too, Brian.

If we can show the strength and performance we saw in the derby match, I don't think many teams will relish coming to Goodison.

Neil Cremin
32 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:40:45
Thanks Michael

Earlier checked a number of times and after midfielders got list of “out on loan”

Figured something wrong

On holidays and maybe due to wifi access was limited.

Checked now and see them.

Bill Watson
33 Posted 12/09/2022 at 16:08:43
If the West Ham game goes ahead, should we all wear a black tie (ladies a black silk scarf) as a mark of respect?
Mike Gaynes
34 Posted 12/09/2022 at 16:25:21
Sounds good, Bill. It'll look a little funny over my bathrobe, but count me in.
Danny O’Neill
35 Posted 12/09/2022 at 16:30:35
No Bill. The Queen would want Royal Blue, not black. Like the Pope and the great Evertonian in Heaven, she's secretly an Evertonian.

Brian, I've never understood them. Friends and even close family, they've always confused me. And don't start me on the London reds that I mingle with and end up having to educate on their own alleged lifelong club (sigh).

Dave Abrahams
36 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:01:07
Brian (30),

Funny you should mention people's reaction to the National Anthem being sung and the hymn Abide With Me. Both were sang in church on Sunday at St Philomena's RC. I sang the hymn but stood silently for The National Anthem, a long time since I heard God save our gracious King.

In the past, mostly at football occasions, I have remained seated while it has been played, but on Sunday I'll stand out of respect for the King's late mother; I think that's only right and proper. I've never heard the National Anthem booed at Goodison Park or Wembley when Everton have played.

Dale Self
37 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:01:40
It's like bad music, Danny. They go to a party, dance about and by association, they get in with the wrong crowd. The undoing of a generation.
Brent Stephens
38 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:07:59
Bill #33,

"If the West Ham game goes ahead should we all wear a black tie?"

Bill, I intend to wear a bit more than that. Or a longer tie than usual.

Dale Self
39 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:10:16
Yeah, well, where are you going to tuck it, Brent?

Or I know, you will leave it untucked and just long enough to dangle an obnoxious 'Have IT!' just above your endowment.

Brian Wilkinson
40 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:15:58
That's fair enough, Dave, remaining silent, no harm in that mate.

For the cup finals I have been to, I have always felt proud and at the same time emotional for the abide with me hymn, always looked upon that as a cup final hymn.

Pretty sure had you heard us boo, it would have been plastered everywhere, naming and shaming our club, but they can do no wrong over the park, everything they do is a means to an end, and justified.

Worst alibi ever was Mr Shields, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but after one of the greatest come backs in a final, he claimed to be tucked up asleep half an hour after the game, not sure about anyone else but my adrenaline would have been fever pitch, well after half an hour of the game finishing, had that been Everton.

Tony Everan
41 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:19:12
Brent, Get your Union Jack thong out of retirement. One must protect one’s modesty.
Brent Stephens
42 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:24:34

"Or I know, you will leave it untucked and just long enough to dangle an obnoxious 'Have IT!' just above your endowment."

I consider it more of a liability than an endowment. Not sure what the weather forecast is like for the day – a smaller tie if the forecast is "cold", maybe just a dickie bow.

Will Mabon
43 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:36:33
Tony - had to widen mine.
Ian Jones
44 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:38:03
Seems 3 games are off.

Everton's game goes ahead.

According to BBC 5 Live.

Jim Bennings
45 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:41:52
In the beginning it was a massive overreaction calling everything to a halt.

The games should have gone ahead last weekend with a proper celebration and respects paid to the passing Queen.

Football in the modern era has become far too much of a sideshow and far too involved in politics and then the games constantly called off willy nilly for everything or anything.

I could understand it as first with the pandemic but even at times last season, certain clubs were taking the piss because they didn't want to play on Boxing Day.

It should be an absolute last resort that a professional top-flight game of football is postponed, these days it seems that a manager can have a broken nail and the game's off.

Brendan McLaughlin
46 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:52:03
Tony #41,

Brent's Union Jack thong?

Is that the one that goes "God thave our noble Queen" ?

Michael Lynch
47 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:52:20
Game is on, kick-off moved back to 2:15 pm.
Danny O’Neill
48 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:54:10
Did we have to mention Brent and a thong in the same sentence. I now have an image I can't erase.
Brent Stephens
49 Posted 12/09/2022 at 17:55:27
Brendan, as an emotional guy I'm fearing the minute's applause – I'm sure I'll go all wobbly.
Stephen Vincent
50 Posted 12/09/2022 at 18:14:19
Dave #36,

The National Anthem was roundly booed at the two Merseyside FA Cup Finals, especially the '86 final when the Anthem was drowned out by unanimous chants of 'Merseyside'. I suspect this was probably more anti-Thatcher rather than anti-Monarchy.

Neil Copeland
51 Posted 12/09/2022 at 18:22:33
Brent, leave the thing at home mate – otherwise the game will get called off due to a shortage of policing.

There again, maybe you could rent it out to Speedo Mick for the day?

John Kavanagh
52 Posted 12/09/2022 at 18:41:05
West Ham will provide a real test of our resilience, but I am hoping for a good win.

Danny @9 - I'm surprised that the RS use the tube to get home from matches in London. I know that the new Elizabeth line was prohibitively expensive, but I never realised it went all the way to Oslo.

On the issue of any minute's silence or anthem for the late Queen, I hope that all Evertonians act respectfully regardless of what personal views they hold. We have always had a good reputation for showing due respect whenever or wherever a minute's silence has been called for; something that sets us above the RS.

Brendan McLaughlin
53 Posted 12/09/2022 at 18:44:07
Brent #49,

It's a no-win situation... standing proudly to attention could have its own drawbacks!

Allen Rodgers
54 Posted 12/09/2022 at 18:46:07
Good news the game is on.

Also, The M6 closure is suspended for this weekend, so good news for our many fans in North Lancs.

Dale Self
55 Posted 12/09/2022 at 19:20:22
Alright, who had 'Union Jack Thong' on their TW bingo card? Come and claim your prize!
Danny O’Neill
56 Posted 12/09/2022 at 19:32:24

I'll see you in the Northwestern and we can talk about your militant youth again!! Would you believe the new PM from Paisley who grew up in Leeds marched against Nuclear weapons and stood outside Greenham Common?

I do remember our very good rendition of the National Anthem and Abide With Me at the 1984 Cup Final.

I'll put the others down to that lot.

Sorry in advance. Bitter with reason. Twisted with a cause. And Proud – always Proud. Gobshites, every single one of them. Even my cousins.

Tony Abrahams
57 Posted 12/09/2022 at 19:47:42
Whilst we are rightly bitter over getting banned from Europe, especially when we see absolutely horrible, and pathetic Steau Bucharest flags in the Liverpool end, I personally think many Liverpudlians are rightly bitter for the way the establishment behaved after Hillsborough.

I do believe we are different, but in a roundabout way, both sets of fans have genuine anger, with injustice at the forefront of their feelings.

Neil Copeland
58 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:00:13
I remember standing in the Albert on Lark Lane with a blue mate watching the events at Heysel unfold. We couldn't believe what we were seeing and both knew what the outcome would as English clubs were already under the threat of a ban.

I was gutted when the ban came and have never forgiven ‘them' for it. But, I have long since learned to control the bitterness towards those fucking red shite hooligan murdering gobshite twats.

Where did I put my pills?

Paul Hughes
59 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:04:28
Michael (19),

Chelsea are playing Salzburg, who will bring a single coach-load of fans. Arsenal are playing PSV, who will bring a small army. One will need loads of extra police, the other won't. I think that is the logic.

Brian Murray
60 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:08:08
They remind us every home game with their Steaua Bucharest banner but, as if by magic, everyone on Sk,y BT, BBC, TalkSport etc have made it disappear. It's too much of a thorny and uncomfortable subject for them and a black stain.

And why would all them ex-reds want to bring it up anyway? Half the reason I just about watch MotD and that's it.

Geoff Lambert
61 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:11:07
The policing issue sounds stupid to me, there will be more police in the capital than ever, they will not be holding back crowds when the games are due to be kicking off so how can there be a shortage of police?
Neil Copeland
62 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:19:34
Geoff, I think it is probably to do with more police having to work the day shift which leave them short for the lates/nights.
Danny O’Neill
63 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:29:28
Something we standby them with ,Tony. As a collective, it shows the difference.

I put those Bucharest banners down to sheer ignorance. Do they not realise they are gloating over something that came about because of their actions that resulted in the death of 39 football supporters?

You would think they would have more class and know better. I know we shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, but you think some would have a word. I certainly would if it was an Evertonian.

At the 2009 Semi-Final, I was in a bar near Wembley predominantly occupied by like-minded ticketless Manchester United fans alongside a few Evertonians. During the match, they started unsavoury Hillsborough chants. An Everton fan walked up to one and gave him the riot act. They backed down instantly. In fairness, I wouldn't have messed with him.

The difference. We stick up for them when it comes down to it.

They don't replicate the sentiment. Same city. Different worlds.

Neil Copeland
64 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:33:35
Danny, absolutely. I find Hillsborough to be a very emotive subject and am very proud that we have stood by them in that regard.

I am not convinced that, had that happened at an Everton game, they would have done the same.

John McFarlane Snr
65 Posted 12/09/2022 at 20:39:27
HI Danny [14] I thought I had posted a response earlier today, but it would appear that I pressed the wrong key. I can't remember the exact words but to condense it, I said that while football plays an important part in our lives it is just that 'a part', I know that due to your army service I don't need me to tell you that.

I was like yourself in my younger days but incidents mainly bereavements, put a different slant on my outlook, and though football remains a part of my life it's not as important as it was.

Hi Brian [17] I am looking forward to meeting you, it's always nice to put a face to a name, you flatter me and you might leave the Bramley Moore, thinking "What a let-down.

Hi Ian [21] as with Danny and Brian, I thought that I had posted a message to you, what I wrote was, "If I got home from a game and learned that the Premier League and television company's had reached a stalemate, and football would never be screened again, it wouldn't bother me. I get my 'fix' at least twice a month", as it stands the TV company's have 'paid the price' therefore they 'call the tune'.

I must apologise if I have inadvertently offended anyone, because I know that there are some who for one reason or another can't attend games, and they have my sympathy.

Derek Knox
66 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:09:02
Danny ,

"Would you believe the new PM from Paisley who grew up in Leeds marched against Nuclear weapons and stood outside Greenham Common?"

She's changed sides more than a Kaleidoscope!

Tony Abrahams
67 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:18:30
The sad thing is that a few Liverpudlians, with very short memories, behave like Everton FC and our fans never really stood behind them.

It ordinarily wouldn't bother me, but the genuine hatred that a lot of fans have for each other is eventually going to lead to fatalities which is a scary thought, but something quite a few people can see coming.

I thought that was rule number one for at least 50% of politicians, Derek?

Brian Murray
68 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:26:37
It would be interesting to know how many of them that boo are from the Merseyside area. The last covid count of season ticket holders from a Merseyside postcode was just over six thousand.

Obviously this came to light because no-one could travel at the height of the pandemic. Our count was 26,000 from this area.

Neil Copeland
69 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:26:43
Tony, the number of poiice that were tooled up and ready for trouble at the Goodison derby was alarming to me. A stark reminder that, given half an opportunity, it may well have kicked off then along Walton Lane

Personally, I find that situation very sad and, as much I dislike them, I could never imagine myself turning to violence.

Perhaps it is a general reflection of some of things that have been happening in the city recently?

Hugh Jenkins
70 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:28:40
Neil (64),

The reason for that, probably, is that because they are a "global brand", many of their "supporters" have no real affinity with the city, only with that team.

Although we, like many other Premier League teams, also have an international following, the great majority of our supporters that attend Goodison do have an affinity with the city as well as with the team. If you know your 'istory etc.

Neil Copeland
71 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:32:20
Hugh, yes that’s a very good point and probably helps to explain the attitude regarding Heysel and the Steaua banner.
Brian Wilkinson
72 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:42:00
The banner the Red Shite had with trophies on since 1995, all saying 0, I can accept that banter, but the shameless one of the Bucharest badge with the one European Cup star on saying 1986, is disgusting.

Not the fact that we may or may not have won it that season, chances are odds were in our favour with that team.

Had it been another team that caused the death of 39 fans, I would feel a bit aggrieved in the Red Shite's tasteless banner, but when it was down to their very own supporters, and the lack of shame they feel, when they hold the banner aloft, I just cannot understand how fellow Liverpool fans can stand by the banner, even more so how those in charge at Anfield, say nothing about it.

If that happened to my club, I would be ashamed and embarrassed, if one of my fellow Evertonians paraded a flag like that.

I never felt comfortable with the 58 banner we had, and the song Evertonians sang about the event, so yes we are hypocrites ourselves, but the events in 58 which was a dark day in football, had absolutely nothing to do with our supporters.

It's time their football club stepped in, and put a stop to that flag being allowed to be paraded.

Neil Copeland
73 Posted 12/09/2022 at 21:55:38

The problem is that they see that as just banter and cannot see why it's an issue. I work with a red who follows them home and away and I asked him his thoughts about the SB banner. He said it's just a bit of fun, nothing serious intended.

When I reminded him of the events that led to SB winning in 86, he just shrugged and said so what it was ages ago.

I have always considered this lad to be a decent supporter so we stand no chance with the real morons amongst them.

Dale Self
74 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:01:23
Good stuff, Neil. Making me proud to have chosen well.
Brian Murray
75 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:07:52

This so-called half-decent fan you know who just said it happened ages ago sums up what they are. Arrogant self-entitled nasty spoilt bastards. Different breed.

Neil Copeland
76 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:08:00
Dale, cheers. It feels great to be a blue, even in dark times. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Mike Morgan
77 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:10:29
This game could be too soon for our A team's fitness. But I hope that Frank keeps to 4-3-3. But we must aim for:


This team would be balanced, have character, massive workrate and some quality.

Neil Copeland
78 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:11:12
Brian, sure does mate - although I was shocked to be honest, I thought more of him than that.
Brian Wilkinson
79 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:25:17
Shocking that Neil, to think it was only 4 years earlier than the other tragady, they had another one at the Goodison Derby, with the sb badge on, and one star below it saying 86.

I was that incensed that I sent an email to their football club, about the tasteless banner, and about it being more than banter, and that the club should step in, to remove it before the Anfield Derby.

I await a reply, but will not hold my breath

Neil Copeland
80 Posted 12/09/2022 at 22:37:27
Brian, good luck with that. They don’t give a toss.
Danny O’Neill
81 Posted 12/09/2022 at 23:10:53
I'm glad we put those '80s Munich songs behind us, Brian. Just like the overtly racist chants I used to hear on the Gwladys Street terraces. It doesn't make me proud that we and others done it –- I didn't personally, by the way. Fortunately we're above that now.

Despite my rantings, it actually saddens me to see how the relationship between us and our cousins has changed. Don't get me wrong, there was always rivalry. I've always despised them since I can remember, even if I've often respected them in footballing terms. But it has definitely become more sinister than the days when me and a collection of blue and red mates would go to the derby together.

Yes, there was an obvious turning point, but I also believe the lack of local connection does make a difference and has changed the dynamic. I live in London and my son has lived here since he was 10. But our roots and family are in Liverpool. That is different.

I mean no offence whatsoever to those who have adopted Everton. I'm just trying to make sense of how the relationship with them has changed. A feeling of bitterness from us compounded by their continued arrogance and refusal to accept they've done any wrong. Heysel, Athens. Okay, they apparently got a pass for Paris as that wasn't their fault, yet the stewards had to close the gates at Goodison at the last derby. Is it just coincidence or a bad smell that follows?

The Bucharest banner needs calling out for what it stands for. They get offended at chants against them so why not call them out for that disgraceful gesture put down as banter?

The polite version, but every single one of them.

Don Alexander
82 Posted 12/09/2022 at 23:30:56
Danny (#81), and others following the topic in question.

It's my opinion that control of the media is the very first priority of any cabal, from world domination to mere football clubs, that seeks power to improve what they see as their best interests.

Goebbels did it, as did Stalin and every other psychopathic murderous dictator, and Trump and Johnson did it (and continue to do it given the craven capitulence of proper journalistic scrutiny in establishing the truth). Courtesy of the Beeb's decades long love-in with Liverpool FC, our football profile as the English nation is forever tainted by the skewed opinions of their proponents.

It's really easy money and "status" for those proponents and gobshites, and there's still plenty of them as a result of Hughes, Hansen and their like.

By way of contrast, I suppose I have to recognise a mark of respect (Keane and Neville aside) to the many Man Utd players who, despite winning way more than Liverpool during the history of the Premier League, have largely eschewed being a gobshite on easy TV money for spouting unchallenged shite.

Danny O’Neill
83 Posted 12/09/2022 at 23:43:38
I last about 5 minutes these days before I'm shouting at the BBC and being told to turn over, Don.

I think you can add Putin to that list of propaganda specialists. The master of "nothing to see here, we are not up to anything whatsoever". Although I think his day of destiny is coming.

Come to think of it, Blair wasn't too bad either at orchestrating the media.

Hughes. You've just triggered a childhood memory of how much I disliked a football player. Thanks.

Brian Wilkinson
84 Posted 12/09/2022 at 23:56:45
Absolutely, Danny, we have rid those dark days of chants, and now show class.

One defence I will make to a former Red and trust me I cannot stand him, but out of all former Reds, I give credit to Mark Lawrenson, sorry Blues, but credit where it is due.

Mark Lawrenson was on some tv and mentioned Heysel and says it is not right how it seems to be airbrushed out of history and he had a good old 7-minute rant on it. He openly admits to the shame it brought and that it should never be forgotten, then again had a pop saying it's shocking how it is hardly ever mentioned. Much as I dislike the guy, I doff my cap for one of them speaking out about it.

Danny O’Neill
85 Posted 12/09/2022 at 00:07:28
Before I head off for the night, I'll agree with that, Brian. I instinctively don't like Lawrenson and his digs at Everton, but I agree, he's never shirked from commenting on that issue.

Random one, but what did we ever do to Chris Sutton? He has an Everton voodoo doll that he seems to continuously be putting his pins into. Seriously dislikes us for whatever reason.

Off to bed before the dogs get me up in the early morning. They are feeling a win at the weekend.

Brian Wilkinson
86 Posted 13/09/2022 at 00:19:23
Chris Sutton, Alan Smith, the Arsenal Smith, andy Townsend, Merson, all seem to have something against us.

Only ones I ever see stick up for us is Ian Wright, and Brian Clough, never tries to belittle our club.

Brian Murray
87 Posted 13/09/2022 at 00:23:34
I think it was the beginning of the end when Hughes on the steps of St George's Hall in '77 got them singing "Liverpool are magic, Everton are tragic" and then our uprising in the mid-80's where, up until then, we got a pat on the head as good little neighbours, but all changed when we more than competed with them.
Brian Wilkinson
88 Posted 13/09/2022 at 00:35:55
Correct, Brian, here's one for you: Back in 77, if you could only give one a dig in the ribs, is it Emlyn Hughes or Clive Thomas?
Brian Murray
89 Posted 13/09/2022 at 00:40:20
Brian. Is a sniper out of the question?

Okay, Thomas it is. Just.

Brian Wilkinson
90 Posted 13/09/2022 at 02:56:29
Looks like I’m digging Emlyn then :-)
Nicolas Piñon
91 Posted 13/09/2022 at 03:02:49
Good news, this!

Anyone know something on Townsend and Holgate injuries progress?

Have read somewhere that the Hammers playing in Europe on Thursday will make it easier but I wouldn't trust myself for that. I'm confident as I haven't been in a long long time, but West Ham are a solid unit and not easy to pass through.

We'll have to work hard, have someone follow Rice everywhere (Iwobi?) and hope Calvert-Lewin plays at least 60 minutes if possible. Hope I'm not too optimistic on that.

Anyway, it's good having first-level options: Doucouré, Calvert-Lewin, Allan, Garner, Gueye, Iwobi, Onana, Gray, Gordon, McNeil. Good for Frank finally having team selection dramas.

We have a nice mix of players in our squad. I like your team, Mike @77. Leave Gray on the bench and in the second half when they'll get tired, bring him in. Doucoure can be sometimes difficult to defend (that penalty on Chelsea) but he has experience, real hunger and aggresiveness and maybe with Gana and Onana he's found the best partners to be the best he can.

Gray, Allan, Coleman, Vinagre, McNeil, Garner, Davies, Rondon and Maupay for the second half looks pretty good.
Apart from talented players I believe Lampard has a group of good-spirited players in the dressing room and good leaders; that's the most encouraging thing.


Kieran Kinsella
92 Posted 13/09/2022 at 03:10:50
Brian & Neil,

I think I lucked out with RS contact. My RS high school mate roped me into going to Anfield and the Kop no less a few times in the 90s for European games.

My “mate” decided to tell everyone I was an Everton fan after the RS went behind. They lost both games actually. But no one said much to me. In fact, it was mostly grandads with grand kids in the Kop and elsewhere there were an awful lot of Indian and Middle Eastern students plus Norwegians. So quite a mellow crowd.

In hindsight, I wonder if the yobs shied away out of shame in the 90s post-Heysel but now they've resurfaced? At that time, I thought by far the nastiest fans were Newcastle, although Man City and Leeds Utd had some scary characters as did Spurs which was weird cause I'd always pegged them as Fairweather fans.

Luckily now in the US I only know two RS fans. One is Samoan and the other British/Indian. Both are amiable enough. But I've seen plenty of videos of the RS fans smashing up busses and worse to know the younger generation back home are of a different sort.

Kieran Kinsella
93 Posted 13/09/2022 at 03:16:51

I disagree on Townsend. I think he just always goes for the underdog. If we are plaguing the Sky lot, he loves us, if we are playing “lesser” teams he doesn't.

The one I can't stand is Stewart Robson (who?) he is always slagging us off. Even Beglin feigns fairness once in a while compared with him.

Also at risk of upsetting Michael, another RS Paul Walsh always seems to give us a fair appraisal. Although he hasn't been on much lately. Maybe cause he's too fair-minded.

David Hayes
94 Posted 13/09/2022 at 04:29:16
Pete #23,

It is still not beyond possibility, as the VAR outcomes have taken longer and more ludicrous than the scenario you suggest.

Thanks for that, still laughing an hour later.

Darryl Ritchie
95 Posted 13/09/2022 at 07:04:44
Mike @77;

Good shout for a starting 11; that is except for Pickford. He's got a wonky thigh.

It'll have to be Begovic… he's all we've got left.

Tony Abrahams
96 Posted 13/09/2022 at 08:00:56
The difference between an Evertonian and a Liverpudlian is shown in that Steau Bucharest flag.

They hate it if we ever mention Heysel, become really offended, and this is when the bitter shouts begin. But it's alright for them “to think” they are getting at Evertonians by producing such a highly embarrassing and insensitive flag… especially because Heysel is something Liverpool FC have always tried to brush under the carpet.

Danny O’Neill
97 Posted 13/09/2022 at 09:39:12
If you listen to some of them, Tony, they claim the we feign outrage at that banner and it is in response to being subject to years of "murderers" chants.

They could justify just about anything as long as it airbrushes history and they get to self-appreciate after singing their song.

I'm getting worse as I get older. Between them and the BBC Breakfast programme, I'm becoming bitter and need to ignore both. I'm going to take 30 minutes and talk to the dogs.

Chris Williams
98 Posted 13/09/2022 at 09:44:02

BBC Breakfast always reminded me of Blue Peter in its insufferable presentation. I stopped watching it years ago, for that reason.

Condescending piffle for kids.

Brian Harrison
99 Posted 13/09/2022 at 09:54:14
There is no doubt that the atmosphere has changed a lot from when I started going the game in the 50s to now. I, like many fellow Blues, used to go to Anfield with my Red mates and likewise they came to Goodison with me and our other mates.

Certainly in the early ‘60s there was no segregation of fans and remarkably there was very little trouble. Whereas now it’s almost unthinkable that either set of fans would go in each others grounds without it being a derby game.

Certainly the hooliganism at games that arose in the ‘70s where fighting between rival fans was a weekly occurrence. From that time onwards, the atmosphere between clubs became a lot more tribal than ever before.

It was about that time the relationship between the 2 clubs seemed to change as well, and has just got steadily worse over time. But thankfully I have many friends who support both clubs and when we meet for a drink there is none of the animosity.

Yes, we still have great banter over football but it’s all good natured. But we are all over 70 and have seen both clubs win many honours and there is still an appreciation of each other’s great players and teams.

Drew O’Neall
100 Posted 13/09/2022 at 09:55:13
Boris Johnson’s looking for a job, he’d suit chief executive of the FA.
Bobby Mallon
101 Posted 13/09/2022 at 10:02:15
Kopites are gobshites.
Ray Roche
102 Posted 13/09/2022 at 10:12:43
Brian Wilkinson @84,

If you go onto YouTube and enter “Lawrenson Heysel rant”, you can see the whole 13-minute interview.

Derek Knox
103 Posted 13/09/2022 at 10:29:31
Drew @ 100,

Do you mean the Football Association or the other FA? He'd be well suited to the latter, come to think of it, the other do FA as well!

Brian Wilkinson
104 Posted 13/09/2022 at 10:54:33
Cheers, Ray,

I just watched it, fair play to Lawro.

Danny O’Neill
105 Posted 13/09/2022 at 11:02:22
Very balanced, Brian, and you're pretty much bang on with the generational transition of sentiment and relationship. I've mentioned my customary visits to the Arkles on my trips to Goodison before on here.

Partly as it pays homage to my Grandfather as it was his local, where I used to take him for half a bitter. Not to mention I find it easier walking that way to get into town easier once I've had a drink and let the traffic pass. A red pub and on Everton home days, often frequented by away supporters.

He had a season ticket in the Upper Bullens for many years. His wife, my step-Grandmother was a massive red. She had an old fashioned ruby coloured chair in the corner of the front room that, to me as a kid, looked like a throne. She called it her Bill Shankly chair. I never sat in it. But we shared many a discussion about Everton and Liverpool at 14a Arkles Lane. My mates, mostly Everton but on Derby Day a mixture, were warmly received, fed and watered after each match in that bottom floor flat.

At the Forest match, after mingling with the Forest fans in the Arkles, I got picked up by an Uber driver who was a Kopite and we had a good conversation on the way to Lime Street.

I am starting to think I am from the last generation that has that type of link with our cousins Brian. But also the first one that started to feel the bitterness because of what we were denied and because of them. So that probably explains my Jekyll and Hyde approach to them.

Although, let's not let the way the club has been run since our last title win off the hook completely. Manchester United, who were 2 titles behind us in 1987 and hadn't won the league since 1968 didn't let it hold back their forward thinking strategy.

And don't start me on "lifelong" Liverpudlians I regularly bump into here in London and on my travels and ask me why I support Everton when I come from Liverpool. I tend not to respond.

So, don't get me wrong when I rant, I still have faith in individuals. It's just the relationship between the collective sets of supporters that has changed.

Many of my cousins and friends are tainted and unholy but tolerable. My oldest sister doesn't really follow football but leans Everton's way. Her husband is Red and they have 3 sons. One is a Goodison season ticket holder the other 2 follow Liverpool. Both my sisters have married Kopites actually. My youngest has one of each persuasion. The rest of my siblings are all true blue.

Although the elder statesman of the family, even by their standards, I am considered some kind of radical. They are sensible, I'm the deluded fool!

Poor dogs. It's only Tuesday. Roll on Sunday and a win.

Tony Abrahams
106 Posted 13/09/2022 at 11:16:25
In 1989, about 12 of us stayed in our mates flat in Harrow, and it was split down the middle, with regards which team we supported. I remember being in the pub after the game and this Irish fella was going on about the Wembley pitch invasions. Did it look bad, I asked? No son, it was absolutely brilliant, he replied, because you must be the only two football clubs in this country, who could have both sets of fans on the pitch, and yet no punches were being thrown.

It’s rare for me to even speak to any Liverpudlians on derby day now, which shows how much times have changed since those times.

It seems like it’s getting worse, because Liverpudlians have now began to replicate what Evertonians have been doing for years. Drinking by their own ground and then marching en-masse over to the other ground full of ale, is nothing but a recipe for disaster, especially when the hatred now runs very deep.

I’m just glad Everton are playing this Sunday, and can’t wait for the day when our team becomes that good, that the only thing to concentrate on, will be making sure you can get tickets for as many games as possible, even though this has been a closed shop for years, because Everton have always had such a very, very loyal away following.

Rick Tarleton
107 Posted 13/09/2022 at 11:17:12
"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind." And the Queen's death must be respected, but no more than the death of Chris Kaba or even more poignantly Olivia Pratt-Korbel.

I didn't understand why football, but not rugby or cricket was cancelled. Sorry not a royalist and not too much of a sentimentalist.

Heysel's airbrushing is a disgrace and Liverpool ought to be ashamed the way they have eradicated it from everything. Didn't hear Mark Lawrenson, but think that he is absolutely right.

Tony Abrahams
108 Posted 13/09/2022 at 11:24:47
I watched a game the other week whilst on holiday. Andy Townsend was commentating and still talking absolute bollocks, whilst sounding like he was watching a completely different game to the one I was watching on the screen.
Danny O’Neill
109 Posted 13/09/2022 at 11:59:30
I didn't stop over, Tony, but a similar experience for the 1986 Charity Shield. Travelled down on a mixed coach. We went all got dropped off at a pub in Walthamstow as the Landlord was a Liverpool ex-pat and hosted us. Teenager at the time, so on the soft drinks!!

The memory is fading but I think the coach company was Amberwood. The pick-up and drop-off was at their yard between Speke and Hunts Cross. We used them for most away games.

I'll never forget those seemingly endless trips to Sheffield Wenesday. League, FA Cup and replays. I think it was the 87-88 season but haven't checked my facts.

Brian Murray
110 Posted 13/09/2022 at 12:10:35

If it's the same coach company, Amberline, used by Barnes travel (on County Road, we called it Amber Loon). I went to the marathon Sheffield Wednesday cup games and the coach didn't get to Hillsborough until half-time in the deciding game with us five-nil up.

Got our money back but I was more excited to see Bracewell's first game back after that caveman Billy Whitehurst crippled him. Never the same again for the lad.

Bill Watson
111 Posted 13/09/2022 at 13:00:47
Stephen #50,

The national anthem certainly was booed by both sets of fans at the '80s Wembley games.

Many Blues I know, who were also there, seem to have selective amnesia about this.

I certainly won't be joining in any rendition of the anthem dirge on Sunday, but I won't boo any minute's silence.

Danny O’Neill
112 Posted 13/09/2022 at 13:08:18
That was it, Brian. Amberline. I was close.

My most epic journey with them was the trip to Norwich to see us clinch the title in 1987. What a day, albeit a long one. I was given the day off school, which was a good thing because I don't remember what time we got home and the adults decided we were all adults and could share a few beverages on the long trip home!!

I remember us having a similar round of encounters with Middlesborough around the same time.

Christine Foster
113 Posted 13/09/2022 at 13:14:21
Born and raised just off Everton Valley, I was a Blue as long as I remember. The rest of the family were Reds. I always was contrary... growing up was a mix of games, I guess I even went to their ground once or twice. No hatred, lots of banter and good-natured put-downs.

Somewhere in the '80s it changed, jealousy of our winning perhaps but the retorts became bitter, a little nastier. I noticed it more because I lived overseas and only got back every few years.

But with advent of the Premier League came entitlement and arrogance, not only in the pubs but on Sky. I think that was a real line in the sand.

Fast-forward and I have 4 great kids, all blue except one,
who must have been dropped. When I was in France a few years back, I went over to catch a few games with them at Goodison and stayed with my red sister. A few glasses of wine later and the bile was flowing.

She apologized the next day, but the damage was done... It will never quite be the same, true colours and all that. "Like wow... what happened to you?" I thought.

There is little respect for red or blue in the city now, there are good and bad in both sets too, but the rants and venom are unjustified. It's really sad... but I won't sink as low, I wouldn't be them.

Tom Hughes
114 Posted 13/09/2022 at 13:56:56
It was Amberline on Woodend Ave. Still got my coach tkt for Rotterdam.

I also remember Evertonians booing the national anthem at Wembley at those finals. The over-riding sentiment was very anti-establishment at that time.

Les Callan
115 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:05:49
I have been in touch with LFC re Bucharest flag. It is to be banned from Anfield and Goodison.
Peter Mills
116 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:29:51
Les #115 – well done.
Nick White
117 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:31:50
I’m sure I should know this (but I do not), but what is the RS Bucharest flag? Anyone able to explain please?
Peter Mills
118 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:40:39
Nick #117,

Steaua Bucharest won the European Cup in 1986, a competition we were prevented from entering due to the ban from European competitions on all English teams following the Heysel disaster.

The flag has been displayed on the Kop and at derbies by some ill-advised RS supporters. It is intended to mock us, but rather it mocks the death of 39 football fans.

Tony Everan
119 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:43:56

Sick people having a go at us being banned from European Cup after the Heysel Disaster. Steaua won the cup the year we were banned in 1986. Would have been that glorious Everton team if it wasn't for Heysel.

It is massively disrespectful to the 39 people who died at Heysel, and a cheap, classless shot at Everton.

Banner has been used for many years, so why only now will they do something about it? Did they think it was okay?

Shame on all of them.

Nick White
120 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:44:35
Thanks Peter! Ouch, that’s just ridiculous and reflects very poorly on the reds!
Nick White
121 Posted 13/09/2022 at 14:49:26
Thanks Tony. Agreed!
Matthew Williams
122 Posted 13/09/2022 at 15:27:40
And how did Steaua win that year's final? ... The RS way, of course! ... via a penalty shootout. Sigh, Champions of Europe – my arse.

Possibly the worst ever final along with the 1982 FA Cup Final... both soul-destroying games to watch. I am surprised the beautiful game survived to this day!

Martin Mason
123 Posted 13/09/2022 at 15:32:15
Sorry if this is the wrong place but does anybody have a spare ticket for Sunday's game against West Ham or especially vs Southampton?
John Keating
124 Posted 13/09/2022 at 15:40:57

I'm surprised you say you remember us booing the national anthem in the '80s – FA Cup in '84, Charity shield in '85, cup in '86. I never heard anything like that at all.

Maybe it was where I was and I was 3 sheets to the wind each game?

Danny O’Neill
125 Posted 13/09/2022 at 15:57:15
Well done, Les, but why has it taken them so long and an Evertonian to make them realise? Why didn't their own fans tear it down?

I know I have a reputation for being overly optimistic, but I was convinced we would have won the European Cup in that period.

I genuinely can't look at them or talk to them in the same way about football as I used to. And it saddens me to say that given my roots, background, family and friends.

John McFarlane Snr
126 Posted 13/09/2022 at 16:06:21
Hi Brian [99],

Like yourself and your mates, my mates and I, 5 Blues and 5 Reds, would attend matches at both Goodison and Anfield. We Blues would hope that Arsenal would beat Liverpool, and the Reds likewise hoping that Tottenham Hotspur would beat Everton.

There was an obvious rivalry, but it certainly wasn't as vicious as it is today. I believe that the Heysel disaster and the bans that followed, plus the fact that Liverpool had their suspension lifted early, was the cause of what can only be termed as hatred in some quarters.

Hi Christine, [113] this is my first post to you for some time. There is a Get-Together arranged following Sunday's game, and I intend to propose a toast to absent friends, and when doing so I will be thinking of your Uncle Tommy among others.

Kevin Jones
127 Posted 13/09/2022 at 16:09:10
Les, you shouldn't have to do that. Maybe even you shouldn't have done that, show them up for the Ignoramus pigs they really are. Why does the manager and a group of supporters have to tell them how to behave?

My dad used to call them "fucking mutants" which sums them up perfectly.

Danny O’Neill
128 Posted 13/09/2022 at 16:44:56
When I go to family gatherings, I rapidly get called bitter, Kevin. For speaking the facts.

I played football to a decent standard and consider myself to know a thing or two about the game through my own eyes. They don't like facts so revert to insults.

I do know one thing and I would ask those in the City to confirm or deny, but they are absolutely envious of the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock. Everton will soon be front and centre of one of the most famous waterfronts in the world.

Let's get to Sunday and focus on the blues.

Rick Tarleton
129 Posted 13/09/2022 at 16:47:20
I very much agree with John and Christine.

Like Christine I was basically a lone blue in a family of reds, I was 7 in 1953-54 when we got promoted and they got relegated. I went to Wembley in 1965 to watch Liverpool win their first FA Cup Final as my family went, and they came in 1966 to see us win.

Heysel changed everything and the friendly derby concept disappeared.

Lee Courtliff
130 Posted 13/09/2022 at 16:48:22
Well done, Les.

Tasteless, classless and insulting... not to mention typical of them.

Dale Self
131 Posted 13/09/2022 at 16:52:45
Yes Danny, civility is for the cunning. Unless it's a really good Scouser line, then I'm all for the low road.

And splendid, Les! Really nice to see human beings respond to a nice tap on the shoulder.

Phil Bellis
132 Posted 13/09/2022 at 17:12:30
Danny (128),

I stroll down for a pint in The Bramley Moore once a week (30 mins from Pier Head). Amazing how quickly The Everton Stadium is being built.

Those of the gang meeting up on Sunday who've not been there for a while will be pleasantly wowed, I think.

The kopites in town have gone from "never get built" through "it'll be crap" to "be under water in 20 years".

I tell them they'll have a great view of The Everton Stadium from their ground's loft conversion.

Good man, Les (115) Google "Bucharest flag Anfield" for some relevant articles.

Rick Tarleton
133 Posted 13/09/2022 at 17:14:42
The other factor that changed in the mid-eighties was that supporters became more cosmopolitan and less locally based.

For Liverpool, in particular, their base became less city-based and more from all over, Ireland, Scandinavia etc. This changed the closeness of Everton and Liverpool supporters.

Christine Foster
134 Posted 13/09/2022 at 18:03:46
John #136,

I will be thinking of you all at the get-together after the game, and it's humbling to know my Uncle Tommy will be remembered. Thank you so much for that.

I hope to make a get-together in the not-too-distant future and thank you personally.

John McFarlane Snr
135 Posted 13/09/2022 at 18:24:24
Hi Christine,

I hope you make it sooner rather than later, I fear I'm running out of time – in cricket terms, 84 not out. I'm holding on until I have my season ticket transferred to The Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

I am claiming naming rights, and if God spares me I'll be going to "Trinity Park", I don't think that there's need for an explanation.

Christine Foster
136 Posted 13/09/2022 at 18:37:04
Hi John, there are somedays I feel the same, I look forward to walking in the dock, a ray of sunlight in such a difficult year.

No explanations needed, John. The Trinity Walk will be gracing a stadium worthy of all that is great about those who wore the shirt, player or supporter! What a proud day that will be!

Danny O’Neill
137 Posted 13/09/2022 at 18:43:08
Trinity Park needs no explanation.

On this weekend more than most, Royal Blue Mersey. Spirit and rising.


Billy Roberts
139 Posted 13/09/2022 at 20:41:54
Tom @ 124,

Oh yes, there was. I was at two of them mentioned and '89. I've never booed anything except at the pantomime when I was about 8.

I have no affiliation with that awful dirge of a song. but just let it go by in silence.

I have absolutely no comprehension of why LFC fans booed Abide With Me besides them being fuckin thick.

Maybe I'm thick? What is it they don't like about a song which is an FA Cup tradition... it's a hymn, isn't it? Do they all hate Christianity now?

I have just read a Hillsborough group have asked LFC fans to respect the anthem tonight. Seems a reasonable comment until it goes on to basically say, "because this will come back to bite us on the arse". Missing the point by a country mile.

They then go all sensible again and say respect goes both ways. King Kenny thinks it was a great statement.

Brian Wilkinson
140 Posted 13/09/2022 at 21:00:18
Les @115,

I got a reply today saying it will be passed to more senior personnel and will be looked into, so will probably get my reply soon as well.

Disgusting that it has taken so long and some Evertonians to bring it to their attention re their Steaua Bucharest banner.

Billy Roberts
141 Posted 13/09/2022 at 21:03:23
Apologies to Tom, it was John who never heard the booing, to be fair, he had a few and there isn't much difference between the anthem and booing – tone wise!!

Also should have made my point clearer, the Hillsborough group were saying respect the anthem – otherwise, this comes back to bite us on the arse.

Billy Roberts
142 Posted 13/09/2022 at 22:54:13
Kevin @127:
Well said, totally agree.
Brian Wilkinson
143 Posted 13/09/2022 at 23:12:20
I was at the '84 and '85 and '86 FA Cup Finals. The first two finals, I never heard the Everton fans disrespect the anthem or Abide With Me, I still cannot recall Everton fans booing at the '86 Final, I do remember chants of "Merseyside" in the '84 Milk Cup Final.

There again, if people said we did, I will put it down to the old grey cells and accept it happened.

Danny O’Neill
144 Posted 13/09/2022 at 23:20:59
Brian @143,

I was at those matches and my recollection is similar to yours. Maybe the memory is fading. I too recall the "Merseyside" chants.

Maybe I have blue-tinted glasses but if there was booing on our side, was it not aimed at the cousins' usual and predictable YNWA rendition over the national anthem?

Kieran Kinsella
145 Posted 14/09/2022 at 02:46:16
Danny & John,

When I was a kid, people would equate Liverpool v Everton with Celtic v Rangers with the caveat that the former was the friendly, family-dividing rivalry.

It seems more recently that those who don't really know have hijacked this and tried to refashion it as being the same. For instance, the fellow who got me into Everton was my parish priest. He never ever suggested there was a Catholic v Protestant element.

Indeed, most of the RS I knew in the '80s were Catholic but, in recent years, I've heard a lot about Everton being Catholic and Liverpool being Protestant – even though Everton was literally founded by Methodists!

I think there's a lot of revisionism going on, fueled by injustice – Heysel but above all the media creating hate where before there was only bitter rivalry.

Derek Knox
146 Posted 14/09/2022 at 03:46:01
Kieran @ 145, spot on there mate, good post as usual.

Very true, how I remember it too – there was never any malice towards, or between each set of fans and I don't even remember detesting them myself, as I do now. Like you succinctly alluded too, the media have played their part stirring up that friendly rivalry into a fervent feud.

Having said that, I still have a few friends of a similar age to me that don't fall into that category, but rarely go to matches either, one even sends me jokes/cartoons that would be more like an Evertonian taking the piss out of them.

Derek Knox
147 Posted 14/09/2022 at 04:07:39
Meant to add that, in addition to my previous post, it seems to be the younger element of RS Fans that exacerbate the vileness. Us older Evertonians will never forget the damage that Heysel did to us when we had arguably our best team and squad and ready to take on Europe, all thwarted because of the few idiots back then, and a blanket ban on English clubs.

Of course, that squad more or less fragmented and Howard Kendall went to Bilbao, but I think he thought he was going to get the Barca job, hence selling Gary Lineker to them believing he would follow.

It has certainly left an indelible stain in our memories, and one that we can never forgive thanks to our neighbours across the Park.

Kieran Kinsella
148 Posted 14/09/2022 at 04:18:11

Yeah, mate, it sucks. My first serious introduction to football was when Bryan Robson got his biannual injury in Mexico and the Everton players kicked in and saved the day.

Reid, Steven, Stevens and Lineker came within a sober VAR of beating Argentina, little did I realist as an 8-year-old, that's as good as it gets ….

Danny O’Neill
149 Posted 14/09/2022 at 07:26:49
Many did try to divide Everton and Liverpool along religious lines in a similar manner to Celtic and Rangers, Kieran. But in my experience, it was never that way or that simple.

I remember the days of mainly half-Everton, half-Celtic bobble hats whereas many of our neighbours would don half-Liverpool, half-Rangers. But even then, it would get mixed up.

Back in those days, my best mate who lived next door followed Rangers, I followed Celtic. We both went to watch Everton home and away religiously.

Then in the 90s, many from outside the city assumed we were aligned to Rangers, but that was mainly based on the colour of shirts and influenced by the Walter Smith and Duncan Ferguson connections.

The reality (in my humble opinion) is that Liverpool has always been a mixed city. Unlike its Glaswegian and Northern Irish cousins, a beacon and example of how to cross the sectarian divide. We've collectively celebrated St Paddy's Day as well as the 12th July with all roads leading to Southport. Well in my lifetime anyway.

My mother told me the story of how her Belfast-born Dad (my Grandad) once lambasted her for attending a Lodge parade. She never did again.

I might be biased but, as a city and people, we've mostly always risen above the bigotry and showed other parts of the country how divides can be overcome and rivalries maintained whilst respected. And that used to be reflected in the football relationship. As mentioned, maybe it's been influenced by events (guilty as charged) or it's been hijacked by outside influences.

Maybe I have a romantic view, but Liverpool has never been divided along religious or football lines in the way Glasgow or Belfast has been. It's a misconception. I always used to say that we have the largest Catholic percentage of population for a major UK city outside of Londonderry / Derry (depending on your persuasion). I don't know if that's still true. So you inevitably had Everton and Liverpool fans who would claim Celtic or Rangers on either side when it was trendy to do so.

If you pushed me, I would say Everton's heartland is the northern part of the city. Being from the south of the city, I always felt outnumbered by Reds. But everywhere you walk in the city, it's always been mixed.

Our city is an example. it's a shame that it changed. There are a number of reasons, but I'll leave it there. The boy was looking at me and daylight was breaking. It was time to go out!!

Derek Knox
150 Posted 14/09/2022 at 07:52:53
Strange, Danny and Kieran, that it is now Liverpool who seems to have that affiliation with Celtic and even sing and swap songs. What Fields of Apples Pies have to do with Liverpool Football Club is well beyond me! :-)

Maybe rotten to the core? :-)

While we seem more aligned to Rangers, not saying that just because we have an ex-Rangers right back, and have had several players from them in the past.

I think, getting back to Nathan Patterson, we have, despite many moaning on here that he was a waste of money along with Mykolenko, one of the most exciting players who has adapted quickly to the Premier League. That goes for Mykolenko too – our main problem will be hanging on to them both!

Danny O’Neill
151 Posted 14/09/2022 at 08:18:58
Two young, exciting fullbacks brimming with potential, who some judged after one or two games, Derek!

The Celtic - Rangers thing will depend on generations I believe. And like I say, you can't really divide the City of Liverpool like that.

Celtic and Everton sing Grand Old Team.

Liverpool and Celtic sing that dreadful song.

To hell with Liverpool and Rangers too as the song goes.

We cross the divides!!

Bernie Quinn
152 Posted 14/09/2022 at 08:32:13
Danny at 630,

I don't really want to become involved with this discussion but, in the 1950s & 1960s, it was basically accepted in and around Ormskirk that Everton was an Irish Catholic Club, whilst Liverpool was Scottish Protestant – but no violence to speak of.

As for bigotry, I have been in Liverpool several times when I was a teenager, and witnessed the Orange Day Parades. I was shocked at the violence I saw. Though I am Catholic, both sides were as bad as each other and both sides called themselves Christian!! There was certainly bigotry in the city.

Danny O’Neill
153 Posted 14/09/2022 at 08:45:59

I guess it's a sign of how our City evolved over time ahead of others?

Great post, Dave @632. Like anyone coming into a new role, they will bring their own staff in.

I can actually imagine the new King being much more thrifty. I seem to recall many years ago him being obsessed with not throwing toothpaste away until every ounce was squeezed out of the tube.

And although we slated him for apparently talking to plants, he was an environmentalist before it became a thing and was dismissed as being a tree hugger.

As you say, job transition is a fact of life, but the important thing is you help people to find alternative employment. Resettlement as we called it – one day, your time is up, but help people to move on.

Alan McGuffog
154 Posted 14/09/2022 at 09:29:01
As Evertonians why would we want to be "associated "with any other clubs?

In particular with those two bunches of bigots and bampots up in Glasgow? Puzzles me.

Brian Murray
155 Posted 14/09/2022 at 09:35:09
Alan, I know. I lived with kids in Glasgow for 15 years and it was just all buckfast bigotry and bullshit.
Eddie Dunn
156 Posted 14/09/2022 at 09:40:32
Tom @114,

I went to the Milk Cup Final and all of the Charity Shields but couldn't get a ticket for any of the FA Cup Finals. I was in east London at the time, so should have bunked-in like thousands of others.

However I don't recall any booing of the anthem. I do remember chants of "Merseyside" but think they were followed by "Are you watching, Manchester?" I thought we were telling Manchester and London how dominant we were.

I used to go to Anfield occasionally with my old mate, an RS, and stood on the Kop a few times. I can also recall taking him to Goodison, and there was never any problem. Just a few funny comments along the obvious lines of "You've come to see some proper football".

Over the years, I have developed a hatred for many of their horrid gobshite fans but I know there are lots of decent ones too. Like my father-in-law, on his death bed in Arrowe Park as I write. Many of that generation were happy for the "other" team to do well, as long as they didn't win the derby.

He once took my pint off me when I laughed as United scored their 3rd goal in a 3-1 victory over Liverpool. It was bad manners on my behalf. It stayed on the mantlepiece.
A lesson for me.

We used to go to Tranmere when I was visiting, as he had 2 season tickets. Pat Nevin and odious Aldridge were in the team. Peter always hoped Everton would win. I think he knew I couldn't be quite so even-handed.

Brian Harrison
157 Posted 14/09/2022 at 09:58:50
The noticeable thing is how Lampard has reduced the average age of the first team, and has also added experience leaders in Tarkowski, Coady and Gueye.

I think we have a really good balance and I am excited to watch the progression of Onana and Garner as well as Gordon. If we can add another striker, then we will have genuine competition all over the park.

Obviously it goes without saying we need to get our first win which will give us something to build on, as winning breeds confidence, just like losing brings doubts. Also, players who have been out injured are getting closer to being back in the first team.

I think a win on Sunday is imperative with it being followed by an International break, we don't want to go into that break without a win on the boards.

Danny O’Neill
158 Posted 14/09/2022 at 10:36:19
That's a great summary, Eddie.

Alan @152, from my recollection, it was just an '80s thing.

I consider myself a huge Evertonian but I have affiliation with other clubs. I occasionally follow Celtic. I go to watch Schalke once or twice a season. I keep an eye on them and always enjoy taking in a visit to their academy to watch the youth teams in the morning. I have a soft spot for Roma.

Nothing replaces Everton or ever will, but I like to follow football.

I watched Ajax last night. Another fantastic goal by our summer target and hopefully January signing. Looks a real talent. As did their team.

Brian Murray
159 Posted 14/09/2022 at 10:47:25
Eddie post 154. The rivalry has always got out of hand sometimes.

I remember being in the Kopite end with dad and three brothers and about five other blue family and mates. 1979 semi-final and all hell broke loose when Jimmy Greenhoff scored the winner.

Scary as a kid but I was with handy company, let's say. We danced long into the night.

John Keating
160 Posted 14/09/2022 at 10:50:03
I think Tom at 114 opened the door regarding us booing the National Anthem in the '80s.

Personally I don't recall any of that and replied to that effect.
Just to be on the safe side, I contacted my brother and a few others and, to be honest, all are adamant it never happened.
Maybe I wasn't as pissed as I thought?

Anyway, it was sad last night that people had to come out before the game to ask them for silence. Even sadder some couldn't help themselves.

Freedom of speech is a right, however, there's a time and place. Can you imagine someone not liking your mam and shouting the odds at her funeral. I would imagine nobody there would support freedom of speech.


Danny O’Neill
161 Posted 14/09/2022 at 10:57:02
Initially when I watched Ajax last night, I thought they had shown respect.

Unbeknown to me as the volume was turned down for music, they didn't.

Not all of them, but enough to make a noise. Freedom of speech should not be confused with showing respect despite having a different view of the world.

John McFarlane Snr
162 Posted 14/09/2022 at 10:59:42
Hi all, I know that this should have been posted on the ToffeeWeb get-together, but not many have visited that thread.

I'm looking for someone who could accommodate a grumpy old man whose family have forbidden him from walking via Sandhills to the Bramley Moore, by sharing a taxi with him on Sunday.

Dave Abrahams
163 Posted 14/09/2022 at 11:21:39
John (158),

I also can't recall any booing of the National Anthem in the 1980s although I recall the chants of “Merseyside, Merseyside, Merseyside” at the 1984 League Cup Final which any have drowned out the sound of the National Anthem that day.

I'm not saying there wasn't any booing at the other finals, just that I can't recall any.

Danny O’Neill
164 Posted 14/09/2022 at 11:29:57
I'm glad others have mentioned not recalling the booing.

I'm not dismissing the probability that some Evertonians may have. My blue-tinted glasses aren't that naive. But maybe the perception was skewed by virtue of the ends being mixed as they frequently were then, even at Wembley?

I remember a great rendition of the national anthem and Abide with Me by the Everton and Watford fans. I remember great spirit between both sets of supporters inside and outside the stadium.

We took over Rotterdam the following year, but in good spirit.

That very same year, our cousins meanwhile in Brussels... I'll stop.

Paul Washington
165 Posted 14/09/2022 at 11:59:50
Dan @ 162,

Re. the Watford FA Cup Final, I remember the Watford team walking around Wembley to the chants of "Watford, Watford" by the Evertonians after the game.

John Keating
166 Posted 14/09/2022 at 12:09:15
Dave. You at Alec’s funeral today?
Raymond Fox
167 Posted 14/09/2022 at 12:15:16
The betting with Betfair is 15/8 Everton 11/5 draw 6/4 West Ham.

Which is saying that it will probably be a pretty even game with a good chance it might end in another draw.

I can't disagree with that opinion, but hope we can get the bounce of the ball and grab a needed win.

Derek Knox
168 Posted 14/09/2022 at 12:18:52
Regarding booing at National Anthem, I am in the ' can't recall camp ' when we were fairly regular visitors to Wembley (the old one) for FA Cups, Mik Cups, Charity Shields etc.

Think I only ever missed one, and I know age can dull the memories, senses and perceptions but I would swear on a pile of Everton Programmes that I never witnessed any of it! And, I may add, I was relatively sober!

John Keating
169 Posted 14/09/2022 at 12:31:55
Well done, Derek. Literally one of the few!

We went to Rotterdam and more or less went straight to Wembley – I think?

Derek Knox
170 Posted 14/09/2022 at 13:11:40
Great times John K, and great memories from then too.

It doesn't quite seem the same these days, I personally think too much money has ruined it.

Those players back in the '70s and '80s were on a decent screw but nothing like the immoral amounts some of these prima donnas are on for basically kicking a modern-day pig's bladder around!

Brian Murray
171 Posted 14/09/2022 at 13:27:56
John @168.

I'll have you know I stayed in Rotterdam all week, even had a whirlwind romance with a Windmill gal, then London on the Friday. All on a double giro.

Andrew Ellams
172 Posted 14/09/2022 at 13:32:49
The only Everton Wembley occasion I recall booing at was the post Hillsborough Final in '89 when some clown thought it would be a good idea to invite Thatcher into the Royal Box.
John Keating
173 Posted 14/09/2022 at 13:45:30

We left on the coach from the Philarmonic after drinking all day. Fortunately, we all had carry-outs to get us to Rotterdam, they ran out by Birmingham.

Fortunately, the coach drivers had enough bevvy to sell and get us to Rotterdam. They had to stock up in Calais.

Got there early afternoon and enjoyed a few. The drivers stocked up to get us home. We had to resupply in Calais. I think it might have cost us more than a double giro but what a great time and memories.

Saturday was just a game too far and, had we had another 24 hours, we would have beaten Man Utd. However, I think, had we had another 24 hours, a visit to AA would definitely have been on the cards.

Matthew Williams
174 Posted 14/09/2022 at 13:46:50
We simply need European footy again, even if it means seventh place and the Europa Conference League.

Yes, there will be some piss easy games in the early rounds but then the stronger European teams will emerge giving us Blues real competitive games. A traveling Blues army, nights at the Old Lady under the lights, and who knows... we could be the first team in the UK to win it!

Another Everton first and what a way to start life at our brand new stadium too as Winners... finally!

Geoff Cadman
175 Posted 14/09/2022 at 14:03:12
l, like many, I can't recall any booing during trips to Wembley during the '80s.

I do remember in 1966 when Princess Margret turned up in a red coat and was loudly whistled at to show our displeasure.

When the National Anthem was played, we substituted the word 'Team' for 'Queen' and continued singing after the band stopped playing. A confused Princess Margaret stayed at attention until we completed our rendition.

Dave Cashen
176 Posted 14/09/2022 at 14:27:57
Tom 114,

You are not losing your marbles mate. Evertonians definitely booed the Anthem. So did the Kopites.

I was in the posh seats (well, posh by my standards anyway) I was a guest of my old boss and his family. I had RS to my right and Blues to my left.

The booing for the Anthem was not ringing around the ground. I suspect most of the crowd didn't even hear the anthem because they were too busy with their own songs.

Nothing co-ordinated about most of the chanting that day, but I distinctly remember being made aware that fans both sides of me were having their "bit of fun" when my boss's daughter asked why they were booing God Save The Queen? A section of the crowd rather than the whole stadium.

I suspect it was done more in mischief than malice.

Brian Murray
177 Posted 14/09/2022 at 14:43:14
Ridiculous we didn't batter Man Utd after taking four points and a League Cup win that season. Bit like West Brom in 1968 when we won home and away in the league.
Geoff Cadman
178 Posted 14/09/2022 at 14:50:56
True, Brian, especially with 5-0 against Man Utd and 6-2 at the Hawthorns.
John Keating
179 Posted 14/09/2022 at 15:16:44
Another final when the official attendance was nonsense compared to actual.

We went down to the Milk Cup final on a coach. I think 3 or 4 of us had tickets. Everyone on the coach got in.

Same in 1985.

Mike Morgan
180 Posted 14/09/2022 at 15:37:11
I was at the Man Utd final. I agree, the team was knackered by too many games in a few days, or the triple would have been ours.

I was living in London at the time and paid a small fortune for a ticket on the black market. I remember the ground being so full, I couldn't move – a real squash and quite dangerous.

Back in London that night I spoke to lots of fans who had got in by giving the guy on the turnstile a tenner. I think there could have been 10-20 thousand more fans in the ground than reported.

Stephen Vincent
181 Posted 14/09/2022 at 16:26:51
In his book, Two Tribes, Tony Evans says of the 1986 final:

“Abide With Me was sung. It is the cup final's traditional hymn. A few people joined in, but the Liverpool end countered with YNWA which roused the Blues into chanting Ever-ton, Ever-ton, Ever-ton.

“Then the teams emerged, led by Howard Kendall in a black double-breasted suit and Kenny Dalglish in his tracksuit. They walked out of the tunnel at the Everton end, and it was from there the chants of 'Merseyside' began and circled the stadium. They were followed by 'Are you watching, Manchester?'

“The national anthem was played and booed by a good proportion of the crowd and the teams were introduced to the Duchess of Kent.”

Danny O’Neill
182 Posted 14/09/2022 at 16:52:43
Even as as youngster, I thought we got seen off having to play the FA Cup Final 3 days after a European Final.

In later years, when I saw matches re-arranged to support teams representing English football in Europe, italways made me look back to that 1985 cup final.

No excuses but a hint of what if had we been given a few days or even a week to rest and re-group. We still nearly done it.

Danny O’Neill
183 Posted 14/09/2022 at 17:28:05
With you, Matthew @173. Europe is not the inconvenience to me that it seems to be to others.

Each to their own but back in the day, the European Cup Winners' Cup was the 3rd tier European Competition. One of the best nights of our Everton lives.

I'll take that Europa Conference League next season, thank you.

Danny Baily
184 Posted 14/09/2022 at 17:47:51
Danny 182, the Cup-Winners Cup was the second-tier European competition back in the day.
Alan McGuffog
185 Posted 14/09/2022 at 17:51:27
Danny B.

Dead right!

Geoff Cadman
186 Posted 14/09/2022 at 17:57:14
Danny 181,

To quote Howard Kendall:

"Two Finals in 3 days is not too much. I wish we had another one on Thursday".

Instead of an FA Cup Final replay, we had to settle for the Trio against the RS that night.

Geoff Cadman
187 Posted 14/09/2022 at 18:08:13
Danny B @183,

Yes, we would have played for the European Super Cup if we hadn't been banned.

Danny O’Neill
188 Posted 14/09/2022 at 18:19:45
Have to agree to disagree there, Danny B. I always take League Position over winning a cup even though I'd take the trophy any day.

But the UEFA Cup always seemed higher in the pecking order than the Cup-Winners Cup for me.

Either way, let's just get into Europe again.

Alex Bennett
189 Posted 14/09/2022 at 18:36:39
I'm not sure, perhaps a Top 4 finish and Champions Lleague proper with all that it could do for us, but surely an FA Cup win or even the League Cup beats that?

If we were winning them every 6 or so years maybe, but a Cup win would feel amazing for us all. Remember how it feels when we beat one of the Top 4, we all have a great weekend and bounce into work on Monday happy to talk about our win against Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc.

A cup win would be like that on steroids, finishing in the European spots is a good achievement over a season but it's not a "The drinks are on me" moment.

Brian Murray
190 Posted 14/09/2022 at 18:38:17

Yes, we was all getting ready to break into a bank in Monte Carlo until the neighbours put paid to that.

Rick Tarleton
191 Posted 14/09/2022 at 18:54:33
I was at the Finals in the mid-eighties, don't remember disrespecting anything, but memory isn't what it was.

I certainly did not sing the National Anthem, always try to avoid singing it, but did sing "Abide With Me" as my dad, a red, loved to hear it sung and he died around that time.

Brian Wilkinson
192 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:19:46
Well, nice to see others having the same recollection of the National Anthem and Abide With Me, at the '84 and '85 cup finals as I did and would stake my last cheese and onion pasty that the booing never happened.

The fact that it has been mentioned is clouding our judgement and putting doubts into our heads, but I am near as certain that it never happened in those two games.

Now I could say there was a guy riding a unicycle around the perimeter of the pitch, while balancing a dolly bird on his head. Of course it never happened, but no matter how bizarre, you build an image up in your head and think really, I do not remember that, but doubt has been planted and assume it must have happened.

In regards to the '86 final, our third on the bounce in FA Cup Finals, I can only assume that, if booing was heard in the Everton end, I doubt the booing was aimed at the National Anthem and possibly more to do with those lot singing YNWA over the anthem.

You remember lots of things at cup finals and I am certain in regards to Abide With Me, that is the one thing that hits you at a cup final, a very powerful and moving moment, followed by the roar after it has finished. That's certainly a thing that would stick with you, if there had been booing.

So stick to your original thoughts and like me, trust your own judgement.

One final thought on the '84 final and the friendly banter with Watford supporters, who were magnificent after their defeat.

I liked Elton John, did some terrific songs, more so in the eighties, so did not sit easy with the unsavoury chants sang out about his likings in love, if you know what I mean, but loved the way he strolled onto the pitch and then walked a little way towards the Evertonians and wave, suddenly the chants stopped and as one, everyone sang Elton John, Elton John, Elton John.

At that moment he shut up some unsavoury bigots, and had everyone eating out of his hands. Good for you, Elton, if ever a polite two-fingered Up Yours salute was done, that certainly happened that afternoon.

Alan McGuffog
193 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:35:27
Danny O, your logic is unquestionable, regarding league position etc. And it was always a hard competition, from its days as the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup.

From a prestige point of view, the Cup-Winners Cup was superior, as back in the eighties, and nineties, the FA Cup was taken seriously.

Kristian Boyce
194 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:38:03
US based blues, looks like Fanatics have messed up the price of the home shirt. On sale for $9:


Get one cheap while you can!

Kevin Prytherch
195 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:47:58
Kristian 193 - works for the UK as well with a $25 shipping fee. Can get 4 home shirts for £65!
John Pickles
196 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:48:49
It's funny, Brian, that's not the way I remember it.

I remember Elton walking around the ground, giving it the big ‘I am', heading to the Everton end and getting huge dog's abuse and quickly scuttling back away from us at double-quick time with his tail between his legs.

But then, I'm not an Elton fan!

John McFarlane Snr
197 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:58:06
Hi all, like many on this thread, I attended all the FA Cup Finals, the League Cup Final, and the Charity Shield games, with the exception of the 1995 game against Manchester United, and I have no recollection of the National Anthem, or the hymn 'Abide With Me' being booed.
Brian Murray
198 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:59:04
After '84, I try and block out the rest of them cup finals including '89. Harvey, god bless him, never a manager. We just don't do dynasties. Same as 69-70.
Danny O’Neill
199 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:22:08
I agree Brian. They always do that thing for the National Anthem. Perhaps that caused a reaction because we know what that does to us.

1984. I posted previously but, as well as the great atmosphere inside and outside the stadium, I have 4 distinct memories that stick in the mind:

1. Graeme Sharp scoring right in front of the end where I was stood near the front, to the right of the goal as I looked at it.

2. Andy Gray scoring even though I couldn't see it. It didn't matter.

3. Kevin Ratcliffe lifting the FA Cup. The first trophy I'd seen Everton win and privileged enough to be there in person to witness it.

4. My Dad trying to scale the fence to pitch invade at the end. Me stood behind him wondering whether to follow but realising I couldn't. I was 2 weeks out of plaster after a broken ankle and still limping. So I was mainly thinking how was I going to get home if he succeeded. I can still pick him out on the footage.

Fortunately, the stewards "gently" encouraged him back into the crowd.

Joe McMahon
200 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:29:16
Brian @84, agreed, we have lost a lot of Wembley finals and 3 to Liverpool (of course all in the same decade). Yes, one went to a replay, we were denied that handball penalty.

I'm not one for dwelling in the past though and feel the future will be much better than the past 27 years.

Ray Roche
201 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:35:56
The mention of Elton John, I too remember the unsavoury songs directed at him in the '84 Final. Funny at the time.

I was a big Elton fan having bought plenty of his albums over the years but I went off him when we, my wife, and another couple, saw him walking towards us in Cannes in 1979. He was walking right up to us on a narrow ish pavement accompanied by a gorilla of a security man.

“Hi Elton”! We said, quite excited to see one of our heroes. He just completely blanked us and minced on past. I never bought another track of his. A smile and “Hello” costs nothing. Little shit.

He deserved all the “He's fat, he's round, his arse drags on the ground” (and worse!) that he took at Wembley.

Geoff Cadman
202 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:41:56
Brian 189. Did you mean breaking the bank at the Casino?

Alan 192. The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup was devalued by the 1 City 1 Club rule. The year Newcastle won it, they qualified by finishing 10th in the League.

Christy Ring
203 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:13:50
Bernie #152,

I agree, that's the way I remember it. Back in the '50s & '60s all the players who came from Ireland joined Everton, and if you remember back even before Johnny Carey's time, there was 5 or 6 Irish Internationals on our team.

That's where the affiliation with Celtic came about, we were the Irish Catholic club, as were Celtic. Ronnie Whelan was the first Irish Catholic to play for Liverpool in 1979.

Ray Roche
204 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:21:16
I wish people would stop trying to make out that Everton is the Catholic or Protestant side and Liverpool the opposite. Give it a fuckin' rest. There's no religious divide between the clubs.

I too have been going since the 1950s and I haven't seen any religious or secular leanings either way. Stop making shite up to suit your own religious convictions. “Yes, I'm a Catholic / Protestant, so I support Everton.”

Brent Stephens
205 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:25:04
Ray, I support Everton so I go to church to pray.

He doesn't hold me in high esteem, judging by our recent history.

Anthony Dove
206 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:25:41
Unfortunately, for reasons I find difficult to understand, it is not possible for anyone to give views on the behaviour of Liverpool supporters since 1985 which conflicts with the air-brushed version of events deemed suitable for public consumption.
Brian Murray
207 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:34:53
Even a rabid kopite, Ian St John, said before the '84 cup final he had never seen a set of fans greet a team like that before a cup final. Comparisons with last season and beyond.

That and the pulling power Lampard has is no doubt getting us a better class of player. Remember them scenes were shown all over the sporting globe.

Mark Ryan
208 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:01:48
Ray @ 203.

Riddle me this then. You may know the answer.

Born in Widnes as a Roman Catholic. I went to St Bedes RC Primary School. 95% of my school supported Everton. The nearby protestant school St Michaels, 90% of the kids supported Liverpool.

You say there is no religious divide. How and why was that happening back then, 1968-73?

James Hughes
209 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:09:22
Mark, as a primary school child 50 years ago, how did you verify those numbers? 😳

Did you go round with a simple question and do a head count at both schools before arriving at the percentage? Or are you talking bollocks?

[Asking for a friend.]

Christy ring
210 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:14:46
Ray #203,

I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist, I'm just telling you about the Irish history at the club.

Which part of the "Irish Catholic players played for Everton" was wrong??

Ray Roche
211 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:16:04

Once you've responded to James, I'll respond to you, probably with some made-up bollocks about Primary School statistics.😁

Brent, He*, if He exists, doesn't hold me in any sort of esteem judging by the way he's allowed my golf short game to disintegrate.

(* I don't think He does, maybe that's why!)

Andrew Ellams
212 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:22:39
Mark @207,

My mum's side of my family are all Catholic Reds, my dad's side all Protestant Blues.

How does that work?

Dave Abrahams
213 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:25:25
John (165),

Yes I went to Alec's funeral today, got back about half an hour ago. The church, SFX, was packed to pay their respects to a genuine funny character who gave plenty of people a lot of time, made them laugh and entertained them with his singing.

We all went back to the Anfield Hotel in Anfield Road and I think everyone enjoyed a splendid wake. The room in the hotel was supposed to finish at half seven, they sang the last song at eight o'clock but the singer was persuaded to carry on singing and he was still singing and most people were dancing when me and my wife left at 9:00 pm.

His lovely family did him proud.

Ray Roche
214 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:35:24
Andrew, you've pretty much nailed what I was going to say. I'm blue, obviously, so was my dad, my grandad, my uncles etc... my brother's a red.

I enjoy telling him that he broke our dad's heart, but that's just me being a dick. The derby, one time 'friendly' derby, is famous for cars full of red and blue scarf-waving fans, often from the same family, none of the rubbish you get in Glasgow, yet there are still people claiming that there is a religious divide.

Christy, you clearly state 'We were the Irish Catholic club as were Celtic', and I am clearly stating that we weren't. You should have stopped at 'players who came from Ireland joined Everton' with 'some' before 'players'. That would have been more accurate.

We have African players playing for us now. Does that make us an African team?

Derek Thomas
215 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:39:27
Disclaimer: we're not pure as the driven snow – we have dickheads.

'They' seem to have way more, way worse. Individually; mostly decent. Collectively; words fail me.

'They' behave... which is what you're supposed to do anyway and collect fulsome praise – a lot of it self praise, or BBC/Sky praise, which is much the same.

'They' do something wrong and we're guilty by association.

They then have the cheek to call me bitter.

If I ever find an unlocked TARDIS or De Lorean, first stop is back to 1892 and pay that rent increase myself.

Ray Roche
216 Posted 14/09/2022 at 22:57:13
Bernie Quinn @152,

You say 'in the 1950s & 1960s, it was basically accepted in and around Ormskirk that Everton was an Irish Catholic Club, whilst Liverpool was Scottish Protestant'.

From what I can gather, since Peter Farrell, and Tommy Eglington signed in 1946, to 1970(-ish) Everton signed six Irish players: Corr for one season, 1946-47, O'Neill, Donovan and Meagan.

However, we also signed eight Scottish players, Lindsay, Collins, Parker, Scott, Young, Gabriel, Brown, Thomson. So, nothing there to suggest an Irish bias in our acquiring more Irish players than Scottish players.

Bernie Quinn
217 Posted 14/09/2022 at 23:40:56
Ray @215,

I never said that it was actually so, only that it was generally accepted as so. Like I mentioned, I don't really want to get involved in this discussion (I was taught to keep out of politics and religion) but I was replying to an earlier post, that said Everton and Liverpool did not have religious connections and that bigotry was very low in the city.

I haven't checked any records for years but, out of the top of my head, I will add Clinton, Cummins and I think Moore to your list, and probably more.

As for bigotry, I just mentioned the Orange Day Parades that I had witnessed, to point out there was plenty of bigotry in my youth.

Can't speak for nowadays though, as sadly through ill-health, I can no longer fly to the UK. Just wanted to say what lots of people thought, back in the day.

Brian Wilkinson
218 Posted 14/09/2022 at 23:45:05
Derek @214,

It's been a good while since I laughed so much at a comment on here about a Tardis or De Lorean.

Good one, that.

John Williams
219 Posted 15/09/2022 at 00:12:18
It was not just locally that people expressed the view about
an Irish Catholic Club.

Over the years, I have met people from Scotland, Yorkshire
and I even met a guy in Spain who thought Everton was an
Irish Catholic Club similar to Celtic.

I always asked, how they came to that conclusion and it was
always the same: football fans talking about the game in various parts of the UK.

Darragh Farrell
220 Posted 15/09/2022 at 01:39:38
I think there was an article on here a few years ago which comprehensively dealt with the Catholic/Protestant perception. It's a topic that seems to come up every so often.

For what it's worth, my father supported Everton as a boy growing up outside Dublin because of the Irish players they had in the 50s & 60s.

I guess there is the connection between Ireland and the city of Liverpool through proximity and immigration, regardless of religion. Liverpool even had an MP, T.P. O'Connor, who represented the Irish Parliamentary Party.

Kieran Kinsella
221 Posted 15/09/2022 at 02:05:52
Derek Knox,

Funny you mention Liverpool's recent attachment to Celtic.

When I was younger, even up until Martin O'Neill was at Celtic, their fans had a good reputation even winning a UEFA award for best behavior. Rangers, on the other hand, had trouble any time they played English clubs, they had Gazza and his flute and Andy Goram posing with a UVF flag.

More recently, Rangers have toned it down but now Celtic fans hang effigies of Orangemen, boo the anthem and sing IRA songs. So naturally Liverpool have switched allegiance to align themselves with like-minded yobs.

Christine Foster
222 Posted 15/09/2022 at 02:09:29
This was done to death a couple of seasons ago on here in an excellent article that I can't seem to find on TW anymore (historical articles and posts now gone, Lyndon?)

However, the gist of it was that Everton FC drew on the local support from areas of Kirkdale, Vauxhall, Scottie from a huge Irish immigrant contingent who were all Irish Catholic, hence where the perception was.

If memory serves me correctly the board originally was from Methodist roots. As local Irish support grew, so did links to Irish players but we were pretty even-handed as to where we got our players.

Steve Brown
223 Posted 15/09/2022 at 05:52:14
Even those catchment areas didn't always dictate club allegiance, Christine.

My mum's family was from Scotland Road (13 kids), Catholic-Irish in background and 100% Reds. My allegiance to Everton came from my dad who grew up in Wallasey – he was a Blue and his brother was a Red. I went to Catholic Christian Brother school and my mates were a mix of Reds and Blues.

If religious affiliation was a factor in club support, I have never come across it, to be honest.

Don Alexander
224 Posted 15/09/2022 at 06:03:40
My owd fella was a Glaswegian Proddy who always supported Celtic on account of the great style of football they played (and in the 1940s-50s, this would risk you being lynched by both sides).

Arriving in Liverpool, he saw in Everton what he'd seen in Celtic and supported them. Me, his eldest, a Proddy (for what it's worth) fell under their 1960s spell too.

That was a very long time ago though – like when we occasionally won things.

Danny O’Neill
225 Posted 15/09/2022 at 06:06:38
That was my earlier point, Steve and others.

The Everton - Liverpool divide has never been on religious grounds. It's a misconception, particularly those outside the City and I've had it mentioned both ways. I always correct it. We're not that way inclined.

All I have observed is that Everton's stronghold (not exclusivly) is in the heartlands of Vauxhall, Kirkdale, Walton and even Anfield. My cousin (a Red) who worked in Kirkby for years also said that seemed to be more Blues than Reds. So the north of the city. Whereas the south part of the city seems to be more visibly Red.

But still mixed and religion doesn't come into it at all. Not in my experience. We are way above that.

Steve Brown
226 Posted 15/09/2022 at 06:07:11
On the Steaua flag being flown by the scum...

I actually went to the Barcelona v Steaua Bucharest European Cup Final in 1986 because I was studying in Seville. It was attended by 50,000 Barcelona fans, 200 Steaua fans plus me and my mate.

My abiding memory of the game was the poor quality of both sides and how terrible the game was. It was 0-0 AET and Barcelona missed all 4 penalties in the shoot-out. Honestly, Everton would have battered both these sides.

My other memories are nearly getting beat up twice. First was outside the ground before the game as we were mistaken for Romanians (we weren't even that badly dressed!), then nearly getting beat up again inside the ground after the final whistle by upset Barcelona fans who suspected we might be English – such was the contempt that our nation was viewed after the Heysel disaster because of the actions of our neighbours.

We only escaped both by claiming we were Irish! That was guaranteed to get you a good reception across Europe in the '80s.

Derek Thomas
227 Posted 15/09/2022 at 07:04:10
Present company excepted obvs; BST ends in a week or two, the clocks go back 1 hour, except in Belfast and Glasgow where they're still set at 1690.

In a small section of my immediate family, you can find Blue, Red, Orange and Green in whatever permutation you can dream up.

The RS seem to think they're some sort of Marxists – no, not that sort, rather the Groucho sort: "Whatever it is you're for – I'm against it."

They're a strange bunch.

Danny O’Neill
228 Posted 15/09/2022 at 07:37:40
Brian Murray @206,

The clip of those scenes at Wembley 1984 really does bring a tear to the eye. There were similar ones in 2009 as a sea of blue swarmed the team coach on its arrival.

Many Chelsea fans I know couldn't believe it. Just as those young supporters following a club in their hour of need up and down the country and marching down Goodison Road with blue torches did last season. A club that has never delivered them a trophy.

Derek @226.

Your last paragraph is telling. Excuse the stereotyping but they do stage and choreograph their so-called support. Marxist, socialist and revolutionary type behaviour from people who probably have highly paid banking jobs in the city of London and travel back to their Surrey homes after their trip to Anfield, laden with shopping bags from an expensive trip to the club store, and then slag off Scousers in the week claiming that they pay our benefits.

I live in London. I've bettered myself from when I was technically of no fixed abode and left a broken home. I travel to see Everton like many dedicated blues from all over the country and the world. But, like most other like-minded Evertonians, our support is passionate, persistent and genuine. Not a falsehood generated for the cameras and the media.

Bring on Sunday. Let's get the first win of many this season on the cards.

Tony Abrahams
229 Posted 15/09/2022 at 07:57:41
I remember being in Holland with a couple of mates when Koeman scored that goal that is remembered by many for the famous video that followed, with that sniveling former Liverpool player, Phil Neal, constantly muttering “You're right boss.” (Great television, Phil!)

England fans were kicking off all over Amsterdam, probably because they never had hotels to stay in, so we decided to drive and ended up in Groningen, a place where I had had some great times in the past.

"If anyone asks, just say we are Irish," said one of my mates, but we got loads of paranoid looks from this group of fellas, who couldn't get their heads around why three young Irish fellas were in their part of the world, and they suddenly became very unfriendly.🤷‍♂️

Tony Abrahams
230 Posted 15/09/2022 at 08:04:25
Derek @214,

Your second paragraph, sums up a high percentage of Liverpool fans, except you omitted two words: "love to" – Derek, they love to collect fulsome praise!

I was arguing with a few not long ago, it was actually friendly banter, and when I said this, one of them actually stopped me, asked me to repeat what I'd insinuated, and said that's true that, so they're not all like this.

Danny O’Neill
231 Posted 15/09/2022 at 08:15:40
We digress, Tony.

I spent a lot of time in the Netherlands when I lived in Germany, near Heinsberg, for several years. The border crossing was in walking distance, our local pub was on the Dutch side of the crossing point and our closet major town was Roermond in the south of the country.

I like Holland and the Dutch. I think more than most European nations, we have a similar mentality in my experience.

I also admired Koeman. What a centre-back and what a bullet of a shot. I think that tainted my view on him as a manager in honesty. I should know it doesn't always translate, but I loved watching him and that Holland team of the time.

Mark Ryan
232 Posted 15/09/2022 at 08:56:10
James @ 208.

It wasn't a massive school. The girls were not into football and so I am simply remembering all the lads at my school had Everton bags, some scarves and the talk was always about Everton, never Liverpool.

My Dad was a teacher in the town at the time, Fisher Moore secondary. He put it down to the school being Catholic but it was never scientifically studied as to whether or not that was the reason and it could perhaps be that these things go in waves.

Perhaps a few years later there were more Reds in the school but, at that time, my school was certainly Blue and St Michael's were Red.

To answer your question, which was a little uncalled for, no I'm not talking bollocks, just stating a fact and not trying to add fuel to any religious argument. Just asked the question in case someone had a good angle on this.

Seems to me from the responses given that neither you nor anyone else does have a good idea as to why that was and so I'll bow out of the thread.

Brian Harrison
233 Posted 15/09/2022 at 09:25:36
I think that the fans of Salzburg, Napoli and Dortmund deserve a lot of credit for their exemplary behaviour during the minute's silence before their games against British sides in Europe last night. I dread to think how some British fans would have behaved if the boot had been on the other foot.

I also read that the Salzburg fans walked from the train station to Stamford Bridge in complete silence in respect of our late Queen.

Joe McMahon
234 Posted 15/09/2022 at 09:46:22
Brian @232, I fully agree. There is a lack of respect in many areas of British society, a mob mentality.
John McFarlane Snr
235 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:01:39
Hi all, I posted yesterday [196] that I missed the Charity Shield game against Manchester United in 1995, it should have read 1985.

I also submitted the following post, [161] Hi all, I know that this should have been posted on the get-together but not many have visited that thread. I'm looking for someone who could accommodate "A grumpy old man whose family have forbidden him from walking via Sandhills to The Bramley Moore, by sharing a taxi with him on Sunday.

It's not because I'm mean, although it would reduce the expenditure, having lived outside of the city for 55 years I'm not sure how these new taxis operate, is it by phone or can you still hail one?

Danny O’Neill
236 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:01:45
I agree, Brian.

We (not I but I'll use the collective) can't even respect another nation's national anthem at football matches, let alone the debate over respecting our own one.

Fair credit to those supporters you mention. And I'd like to call out the Rangers supporters for the display they put on last night. I know there are undertones, but it was a great spectacle.

Monarchist or Republican, I think recent events have demonstrated that the Queen and the Monarchy can bring this nation of 4 step-children who often disagree with each other together more than any politician will ever get close to achieving as they seek their own personal ambitions masked as speaking for the people.

I don't mind admitting but, despite decades of service, it's why I've actually only ever voted twice in my 50 years. I don't suffer fools and most politicians fall into that category for me.

That will be 51 years tomorrow by the way. Don't forget, 16 September is not just the date I entered this world, it is also Neville Southall's Birthday. Celebrations all around this weekend culminating in an Everton win and then final respects to a great servant of the nation on Monday.

Chris Williams
237 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:09:07
Who’ll be the captain on Sunday?
Mike Hanlon
238 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:18:20
Good summary on Everton's history and long-standing Irish roots here.

Question of religion as basis for support still contentious

Whatever your views, we're all Blues and I'd hope encourage respect, non-discrimination and openness to all people. Bigotry should have no place. IMHO, both Everton and Celtic Football Club have always followed this mantra.

Dave Abrahams
239 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:25:42
Chris (236),

A toss-up between Coady and Tarkowski, and I know you're not one for controversy but I hope they keep the captain's armband and let Jordan concentrate on his goalkeeping position.

Paul Morrison
240 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:27:07
That '84 final had me reminiscing. It was my 21st and based in Portsmouth at the time.

My Dad, Uncle and all the blues from Bramleys (The Albany) in Kirkdale came down in a van and when they opened the doors on arrival, the Watford fans thought it was a mobile off-licence as there was so much booze inside. Cue an impromptu party with them and the start of an amazing day.

After the game, back to the van for more beers, before I remembered I was not heading back to Liverpool but had to make my way back to the South coast (slowly) in my Daytona yellow Ford Capri. Happy days.

Ray Roche
241 Posted 15/09/2022 at 10:34:44
'Whatever your views, we're all Blues and I'd hope encourage respect, non-discrimination and openness to all people.'

Good sentiments, Mike. Which is why I get a bit concerned when people try to make out Everton are something they're not, eg, associated with one or another religion. We're a club. Not a church.

Incidentally, it's not always easy to try and make your point without it seeming harsh or unfriendly. When speaking directly to someone, the inflection in their voice enables you to ascertain whether they're angry or not.

So, what might be energetic banter and good humoured in the bar, might seem harsh on paper. I hope that the comments, including mine, are not taken as angry.

Danny O’Neill
242 Posted 15/09/2022 at 11:15:49
Sorry to use a religious term, but Amen, Ray. The written word can often be misinterpreted. Most of us who lock horns here would often be in violent agreement in person.

As my youngest brother always says, and following our sometimes late-night arguments over Everton, only Evertonians can argue about something they all love and agree on!!

Chris, we now have at least 2 captains on the pitch in Coady and Tarkowski. They don't need armbands. If Allan features, there's another one.

But as it's his Birthday, then Neville Southall!! Not that I believe he is welcomed at Goodison these days.

Chris Williams
243 Posted 15/09/2022 at 11:41:57

Totally agree.

In the derby, we had the 3 of them as captains, and they pretty much did everything between them. And it wasn't all fist bumps and high fives either, quite a few arguments too. Healthy stuff.

Allan was telling Onana where to move to as well. It all bodes well.

Brian Harrison
244 Posted 15/09/2022 at 12:18:50
I cant understand why the FA are suggesting that supporters should applaud on the 70th minute to commemorate the Queen's time on the throne. I think protests or celebrations while the game is continuing is a nonsense, all should be done before the game not during.

Regarding a goalkeeper as captain, I don't see any sense, and I know many will quote Dino Zoff being captain of his country. But surely one of the roles of the captain is to be able to talk to the ref. If you are always 30 yards from play, that becomes impossible.

Also, how do you communicate with your teammates as the goalkeeper is another reason to have an outfield player as captain.

Chris Williams
245 Posted 15/09/2022 at 12:24:15
70 years as Queen?
Brian Murray
246 Posted 15/09/2022 at 13:13:14
We should applaud at every anniversary of Heysel, never mind billionaire Lizzie.
Matthew Williams
247 Posted 15/09/2022 at 13:30:28
For me, it should be Tarkowski as Captain and Coady as Vice Captain. Job done.

Our first win coming on Sunday folks... 2-1 methinks.


Mike Keating
248 Posted 15/09/2022 at 13:32:06
“Random one, but what did we ever do to Chris Sutton? He has an Everton voodoo doll that he seems to continuously be putting his pins into. Seriously dislikes us for whatever reason.”

Couldn't agree more, Danny.

After Pickford won that 50:50 ball with Van Dijk in the 2020 derby game, Sutton was still ranting about it three weeks later.

Following this year's derby, not a mention of Van Dijk's deliberate stamp on Onana's ankle which could have ended the lad's career.

Brian Wilkinson
249 Posted 15/09/2022 at 13:54:29
Brian@246, pondered on that for years...

Hillsborough always falls during the season, so they get maximum coverage each season; however, with Heysel the season has always ended, so it does not fall on a week we could do anything.

If the Steau flag is paraded at Anfield, even though we have been assured it will not, then I think it is time we came up with a banner for the next Goodison derby, not a tit-for-tat thing, just a banner with Heysel 85, remembering the 39, bit like the Moise Kean banner part written in Italian.

Have that hanging from Upper Gwladys Street, where the cameras cannot fail to pick it up, and let the Italians know half if not more of Merseyside, has not forgotten the 39.

See what the media have to say about that, while at the same time, shaming those bastards into remembering the 39.

Danny O’Neill
250 Posted 15/09/2022 at 14:12:35
My middle brother would like that, Brian W.

He annually posts on Social Media that 39 supporters went to a football match and never came back.

Cue family arguments, debates and accusations of being Bitter Blues!!!

Ray Robinson
251 Posted 15/09/2022 at 14:22:57
Random question. Who is our penalty taker (if we ever get one)?

Calvert-Lewin missed his last one. Maupay has a terrible conversion rate, if I recall correctly. Townsend is injured and Richarlison has gone. I'd nominate Mykolenko – he seems to strike the ball cleanly.

Brian Murray
252 Posted 15/09/2022 at 14:28:01
Danny. Yes shocking the state of the ground so they just felt it as their duty to kick off and cause panic and a riot.

Fucked off a week earlier, the Rotterdam Stadium was hardly state of the art and actually shaking the higher up you went.

Still have the comment of the Chief of Police: "Everton fans welcome back any time." Drunk all week then off to London.

Not sure even an arrest except maybe the odd offy getting relieved of their wares. Horrible bastards kopites.

Brian Murray
253 Posted 15/09/2022 at 14:54:37

You all for omens: I've just seen Speedo Mick as I'm sitting outside the boozer. Gave him the "What's Our Name?"

Surely a win on Sunday.

Paul Washington
254 Posted 15/09/2022 at 15:12:57
Mark #232

Was your dad, Mick, PE teacher?

If so, great character. He'd know me for my Everton obsession!!

Andy Meighan
255 Posted 15/09/2022 at 15:13:08
I see someone mentioned Chris Sutton earlier and what he's got against us. Just looked at the BBC site, and he's got us down to lose 2-1 on Sunda.y

By his reckoning, we should be relegated by the time the World Cup starts. What a helmet of a man.

Will Mabon
256 Posted 15/09/2022 at 15:25:22
Andy, he's got so predictable that I even guessed what I'd see before I opened the page. 1-2... yet goes with 0-0 for Brentford vs Arsenal.

The other guy, a musician, predicts more realistically than Sutton.

Will Mabon
257 Posted 15/09/2022 at 15:38:04
"I cant understand why the FA are suggesting that supporters should applaud on the 70th minute to commemorate the Queens time on the throne."

We discussed this here sarcastically days ago. And now it's happened? How crass and demeaning to such a major event, irrespective of one's views of the monarchy. 70th minute, applause, 71st minute, clips of applause uploaded to social media.

Politics and pathos have long outstayed their welcome in sport, becoming low-grade and vulgar, and producing a cheapened, opposite effect.

Jay Harris
258 Posted 15/09/2022 at 15:46:45
The bias from so called "pundits" is frightening although here in the US the 2 Robbies and our former goalkeeper are relatively neutral with Mustoe in particular very supportive and honest about Everton.

It is the dickheads like Carragher, Sutton, Townshend and Stephen Warnock that can't help themselves.

Hopefully we can ram it down their throats over the next few years although, despite the enormous success of the '80s, we didn't get the recognition then either.

Danny O’Neill
259 Posted 15/09/2022 at 15:53:47
The dogs tell me 2-0 Everton. My second cousin removed will come back to Goodison to keep it tight and nick one but go back to London disappointed.

I think he's second cousin removed. Our grandfathers were brothers. Mine left Northern Ireland for Liverpool, his to Scotland.

We both ended up being centre-backs but I guess he was better than me.

Joe McMahon
260 Posted 15/09/2022 at 16:07:24
Jay @258,

I fully agree, and the bias is nothing short of discrimination. I feel when we did win trophies in the '80s,. Liverpool also did too, plus beating Everton in several finals.

But the 80s was a long time ago, so let's hope the future can change things in a modern stadium and with a young respected manager.

For the record, Villa and Forrest never got the credit either.

Will Mabon
261 Posted 15/09/2022 at 16:30:03
Danny, as ever, no way to know.

What I do feel pretty sure of - if we play like we did in the derby, we'll more than likely win well.

James Hughes
262 Posted 15/09/2022 at 16:33:20
Mark #232,

Lighten up, please – it was only a bit of teasing.

John Burns
263 Posted 15/09/2022 at 16:41:06
Don't forget (John Mac, 235) needs a lift/shared taxi!
Brian Williams
265 Posted 15/09/2022 at 17:00:27
I went to an Islamic Fudamentalist school.
Think I was the only Evertonian there. The rest blew hot and cold to be honest.
Will Mabon
266 Posted 15/09/2022 at 17:03:44
Brian, I was a monk. Don't know who supported who, we couldn't speak.
Brian Williams
267 Posted 15/09/2022 at 17:06:10
Shhhhhhhhh! ;-)
Dale Self
268 Posted 15/09/2022 at 17:17:45
Matthew 247, agreed. Tarkowski is the diplomat, Coady is there for, shall we say critical analysis. I like the scoreline as well. UTFT!!!!!!

I think we will see the benefit of the extra week's preparations for installation of the Onana - Gana. By the way, on my way to work deep in the woods, I noticed an Onana Forest. That will be the destination of my pilgrimage each time we take out one of the shit six.

Brian Wilkinson
269 Posted 15/09/2022 at 17:53:28
I am happy to pay for a taxi from Goodison to The Bramley Moore, so John Mc Snr and another two are welcome to jump in.

Could meet up by the Dixie statue after the match if that helps out.

Bill Griffiths
270 Posted 15/09/2022 at 18:18:06
I'm on for sharing a taxi, Bri.
Danny O’Neill
271 Posted 15/09/2022 at 18:35:50
Me and meeting at statues don't tend to go well as others will testify to.

Happy to do the Uber thing though, John Senior and others.

Brian Wilkinson
272 Posted 15/09/2022 at 18:40:03
Jim is getting in as well, so I’m assuming you can get 5 in a taxi, if so that’s sorted then, we have 5 if John Mac Snr is getting in.

Just make your way to the Dixie statue, and if anyone can order one, I will sort the fare out.

Off out now so will catch up with messages later.

Neil Copeland
273 Posted 15/09/2022 at 19:21:04
I am going to The Bramley Moore after the game too. I will be driving (daughter's birthday so need to get back for a decent time) and have 4 spare seats in the car if anyone wants a lift from the car park on St Domingo Road to The Bramley Moore pub.
John Keating
274 Posted 15/09/2022 at 19:34:18
Dave @213,

Dave knew he'd get a good turnout. My younger brother went.
Glad you and all there enjoyed it, he'd be made up.

I'm stuck in Cairo another 24 hours so couldn't get there.
Good lad Alec always had time for him, Vera and the kids.
Good memories. Still a good few Reds about but getting fewer as time passes.

John McFarlane Snr
275 Posted 15/09/2022 at 19:40:23
Hi John, [263], Brian [269 & [272], Bill [270] & Danny [271] thank you for your reaction to my posts, my family more or less pleaded with me not to walk from Sandhills, I promised that I wouldn't but it's a promise I couldn't have kept.

I'm walking like an 'old man' now, and I may have arrived late but I would have arrived, to safeguard my 100% attendance record.

The suggestion that we all meet at the Dixie Dean statue and sort things from there, is an excellent idea, I was going to say that I would be wearing an Everton top and a blue sweater, but on reflection I don't think that would be an ideal solution.

The gap between posts [162] & [[263] led me to think that I would have been forced to deceive my family, thanks again for your intervention and kind thoughts. John.

Nicolas Piñon
276 Posted 15/09/2022 at 19:51:36
West Ham are playing in Europe and Antonio, Bowen, Benhrama, Zouma and Fornals are on the bench. Tough game ahead on Sunday for us.
Christy Ring
277 Posted 15/09/2022 at 20:03:28
Andy #255,

Regarding Sutton, he's a bit like Merson, hasn't a clue. As you say, hasn't a good word to say about Everton.

Sutton a few weeks ago, when Man Utd won 2-1 against the Red Shite, he predicted 1-5, so we know his favourite club.

Will Mabon
278 Posted 15/09/2022 at 20:19:10
"...so I'm assuming you can get 5 in a taxi, if so that's sorted then, we have 5 if John Mac Snr is getting in."

Be sure whoever orders it makes clear it's for five, Brian. Otherwise, if you order by phone/'net you will likely get a default standard four-passenger vehicle.

Tony Abrahams
279 Posted 15/09/2022 at 20:29:53
West Ham will have played twice since our last game and this will be in their favour because it's so early into the season IMO.

I think the English clubs have found it difficult in Europe this week because they never played last weekend, and although they would normally be glad of the break, I think it's round about now that players begin to find their second wind.

Hopefully Lampard having the time to work with the players, it works in our favour.

John McFarlane Snr
280 Posted 15/09/2022 at 20:38:27
Hi all, I have struggled for some time to write this post without appearing conceited, and I've come to the conclusion that the best way is to say it as it is.

Four years ago I spent seven weeks in Southport Hospital suffering from a twisted stomach, five of which were nil by mouth. It appeared that my daughter Nicki, informed ToffeeWeb of my situation and the response was superb, good wishes apparently in abundance.

That summer to show my gratitude I invited ToffeeWebber's to help me celebrate my 80th birthday at the Central Hotel Liverpool. the following people attended what I was told, was the first event of its kind.

Dave & Tony Abrahams, Steve Fearns, Bill Griffiths, George McKane, Gerard McKean, Peter Mills, and myself, since then the numbers have increased, but I would expect it to do so at a faster rate as the completion of the new Stadium nears.

I am not seeking Brownie Points but I must admit I do gain a degree of satisfaction from the progress that has been achieved, and the friends I have made, it appears that the list of friends will be increased on Sunday.

Andy Meighan
282 Posted 15/09/2022 at 21:09:44
Will 257. Brilliantly put.
Dave Abrahams
283 Posted 15/09/2022 at 21:36:53
John (274), thanks for your reply.

I never met your mother but I know she and her family were well regarded by all of the Sweeney family and were good neighbours for each other especially when Vera passed away last year.

By the way, we did a tour of Anfield in the funeral cars and two mates in the car with me said “You can start praying now, Dave, you're at the Temple of football.”

I said, “I've been praying since we got here” moving my index and big finger up and down at the same time. Alec would have understood, he liked Everton a much as I liked Liverpool; it never spoiled our friendship.

Brian Wilkinson
284 Posted 15/09/2022 at 23:14:25
Hi Neil, if you can get John Snr, bill G, Jim and Danny in, I can make my way there no probs mate, have a couple of cigs on my way.
Neil Tyrrell
285 Posted 15/09/2022 at 23:33:01
Fancy us to win on Sunday, we've generally looked alright to these eyes so far this season and could have 2 wins already if not for marginal VAR decisions. New signings have added a spine and some backbone to the side, goals are still a worry but I'm going 2-1 for us.

Lots going on in this thread, most of it unrelated to Sunday. Including a shitload about the other team from the city (why?). I come from a red family and was sick of their shit by age 8 (born 1967) and went blue.

The ahl fella (to his eternal credit) took me to Goodison a bunch of times as a kid, and to this day would rather see Everton win as long as we're not playing his RS. Granted we live thousands of miles away from Merseyside now so don't have to live with the tribalism (much).

Religion. I'm surprised anyone still gives a shit in 2022. It's almost like science doesn't exist. I was raised Catholic but realized it was a joke by 15. As a scouser once sang, God is a concept by which we measure our pain. We're all gonna die just like every other living creature; deal with it.

Please don't associate our team with any of that stupid nonsense. If I'm wrong, I'll recant on my deathbed and "god" will forgive me, right? Yeah right.

Stephen Vincent
286 Posted 16/09/2022 at 01:08:33
Danny, are you still in the North-western pregame or heading straight to GP?
Stephen Vincent
287 Posted 16/09/2022 at 01:29:59
Danny #231,

I really don't like the Dutch.

I have been seriously beaten up twice in my 62 years watching Everton. Once in Leeds, lost 5-2 as well and once in Sittard prior to the Fortuna Sittard game in 1985, ridiculously by a large gang of PSV fans who had come looking for a fight.

Christine Foster
288 Posted 16/09/2022 at 04:40:50
I am really, really, REALLY peeved that another ToffeeWebber meeting has come around while I am at the other end of the world. I would suggest a TW meeting here in NZ but its so sparsely populated we would have to pad the numbers out with sheep!

Can somebody take a few pics to post on here so I can see what us exiles are missing… actually a pics of your pints of Guinness will do.

John, a little aside, a titbit from the past concerning my Uncle Tommy. (Sadly no longer with us I wonder who in the family got his season ticket?)

Tommy used to work on the Docks when he was first married; pennies were few and he was always up to something to get a few bob.

One Saturday morning (I was about 13, I think), he asked me if I wanted to earn a few bob. Green as a cabbage, I said Yes!

Well, Tommy had been working along Dock Road and he noticed there had been a load of scaffolding left inside the gates of Bramley-Moore dock… he asked me to meet him outside the aforementioned pub on Saturday morning and afterwards we could go the game.

Not sure why I was there, along comes Tommy on a little tractor with a trailer and a load of scaffold on it. My job was to sit on the trailer to make sure nothing fell off as we made our way up Bankhall to the scrapyard at the top. I got a fiver for my trouble.

I thought he was just delivering stuff as part of his job until I saw the notes exchanged! Off we trundled back to the Dock Road, he finished work and I sat outside the pub till he came back and off to the match – we thumped Burnley too that day.

In years to come, Tommy would roar with laughter at that memory of BMD, and the pub where a (not so innocent) little scouser sat on a load of scaffold.. I was forever Lily the Pink.

Enjoy the day, guys… wish I was there!

Danny O’Neill
289 Posted 16/09/2022 at 06:20:11
Always time for a leg stretch in the Northwestern, Stephen.

I know what you mean about New Zealand being sparsely populated, Christine. As I drove down the South Island, it really struck me. A land mass roughly the same as the UK (possibly larger) but with a population of about 5 million (??) in comparison to our now estimated 68 million. Lot's of empty spaces on the drive down to Christchurch.

Well, as I head out this morning having tipped the scales into my second half century (officially now 51), I'll reflect on life. Born in Sefton General, now living in London having gladly and fortunately travelled the globe. Good times, tough times. Happy times and some sad ones, but I wouldn't change a thing. Grateful for what I've had and have.

When we last won the league and I was there to witness it, I was 15 years old. I'm grateful it was in living memory and I experienced it twice as well as a European trophy. The FA Cup was a bonus.

Those young faithful Evertonians will have their day too. Keep going. Keep up your amazing support.

Make me happy this weekend Everton. Back to Elton John, we simply love you more than life itself. I do.

Spirit. Forever. Absolutely forever.

Neil Copeland
291 Posted 16/09/2022 at 07:49:19
Brian #284, as long as you are okay with that that's no problem. Is everyone meeting at the Dixie statue at the end of the game? Perhaps we meet and sort it out then?
Brian Harrison
292 Posted 16/09/2022 at 09:36:30
With the mention of Dixie's statue, I was wondering what plans are in place to move the Dixie statue and the Holy Trinity statue to the new stadium?

Just that I haven't seen anything said about moving them to BMD but maybe it has been discussed and I have missed it.

Dave Abrahams
293 Posted 16/09/2022 at 09:48:28
Christine (288),

A lovely funny and honest story, it was all about survival in those days, girl, and every little helped!!

Danny O’Neill
294 Posted 16/09/2022 at 09:55:08
I've mentioned that before, Brian.

I think someone said we can't move them to the new stadium.

Total dilemma for me. Do we leave Dixie and the Holy Trinity in their spiritual home or take them with us to our new one? I can't decide.

Can we take the Goodison Supper Bar with us?

I'm so looking forward to our new stadium, but watching Everton without having chips, peas and onion gravy served to me by the same family that have served me since I was a youngster presents another dilemma.

I want us to follow Tottenham's model and modernise the match day experience. But maybe we can take our tradition with us and represent our heritage. So rather than those shitty overcrowded sausage roll kiosks that I never manage to get served at (that Upper Bullens Lady just doesn't seem to like me), we will have bars and eateries named after and in the spirit of the Winslow, the Brick, the Royal Oak, the Saddle and the Dark House.

And of course the Goodison Supper Bar.

Sorry for my random rambles. I blame the dogs.

Brian Harrison
295 Posted 16/09/2022 at 10:04:28

I hope they do make plans to move both statues to our new home, being left where they are now makes no sense. They were put where they are so match-going fans could see them.

I know when they demolish Goodison they do intend having a memorial garden there, I just think it's unthinkable that we leave our most cherished statues behind.

Eddie Dunn
296 Posted 16/09/2022 at 10:48:54
I have a better idea regarding the statues.

We should have a giant Dixie Dean, on the scale of the Christ the Redeemer in Rio, welcoming all the ships into the Mersey looking across the water to his native Birkenhead. Imagine how our RS chums would enjoy it.

Larry O'Hara
297 Posted 16/09/2022 at 11:03:44
Eddie (296) I like the idea: but fear that Boys Pen Billy would tweak it so he was the statue…
Danny O’Neill
298 Posted 16/09/2022 at 11:14:39
I watched Howard's Way last night to get me in the mood for the weekend.

I keep saying it, but Colin Harvey has to be more of an Evertonian than Everton. I don't mind admitting, but when he speaks, it brings out the more emotional side of me.

I know it's now not possible and was never financially feasible, but I'd liked to have seen a downscaled, redisigned stadium on the site of Goodison used to host the U23s and Academy matches.

Sunday. 2-0. 3 points.

Brian Wilkinson
300 Posted 16/09/2022 at 11:57:32
Yes, that's fine by me, Neil, I know where I am going now. I will text Bill and Jim to get them to meet you at the Dixie statue. If John Mcfarlene Snr comes on, can they let him know to make his way to the Dixie statue after the game, and Danny as well, and I will see you all down The Bramley Moore.
John McFarlane Snr
301 Posted 16/09/2022 at 12:30:11
Hi Brian, [300],

I anticipated meeting up at the Dixie Dean statue, I feel a little embarrassed now because I have appeared to have caused a bit of an inconvenience. If the Neil your post is addressed to, is Neil Copeland [273 & 291], the embarrassment is heightened, because a free ride was never in my plans.

I was quite willing to pay my way, but although my various ailments prevent me from drinking, they don't prevent me from buying a Good Samaritan the drink of his choice.

Brian Wilkinson
302 Posted 16/09/2022 at 12:51:33
Behave John, I am made up a lift has been sorted and very kind of Neil to have sorted it out. Just make sure you get to the Dixie statue after the match.

Looking forward to meeting you, John, and a few others.

Jim Lloyd
303 Posted 16/09/2022 at 12:57:01
John, he might not be able to drink, as he's driving but we could, if it's alright with Neil, we could chip in with the petrol money.

Danny, yes it's too late for a Goodison mark two, though there was tons of debate about staying. That was before Mr Moshiri came along. I remember Liverpool Council giving prodigious help to the other lot by redesigning the area around it and seeing streets knocked down. The r/s did a job on the properties immediately around and half of Anfield Road as well.

Mind you, Derek (215) has a great post. Using Dr Who's Tardis and getting back to 1892 and paying that Tory sod, the increase in Anfield's ground rent!

John McFarlane Snr
304 Posted 16/09/2022 at 13:02:46
Hi Brian, [302],

I always try to behave, I think I learned it at what some people call 'The Old School' where behaviour and manners were compulsory. Like yourself, I am looking forward to renewing existing friendships and making new ones.

Brian Wilkinson
305 Posted 16/09/2022 at 13:04:11
There you go, Danny O, lift sorted for you to The Bramley Moore. I know you have a thing about statues, but if you make your way to the Dixie Dean statue after the game, Neil will meet you there with Jim Lloyd, Bill Griffiths and John Mcfarlane Snr.
John McFarlane Snr
306 Posted 16/09/2022 at 13:11:24
Hi Jim, [303],

I was thinking along the lines of donating what would have been my taxi fare, if I was travelling on my own, to Neil's daughter as a birthday present.

Jim Lloyd
307 Posted 16/09/2022 at 13:13:15
That sounds a good idea, John!
Danny O’Neill
308 Posted 16/09/2022 at 13:30:22
I'll try my best. I usually wander off to The Arkles. I know, shame on me, but family connections.

Just don't have me dipping for the line for the last train to Euston.

Brian Wilkinson
309 Posted 16/09/2022 at 15:59:19
If you decide to go The Arkles, Danny, let me know and I will take your place.
Neil Copeland
310 Posted 16/09/2022 at 19:03:42
John Mc and Jim,

I am driving there anyway so no need for fuel money and all that nonsense. Good company will be sufficient.

Looking forward to the game and meeting up.

John McFarlane Snr
311 Posted 16/09/2022 at 19:28:27
Hi Neil [310]

When I told my 'Young Lady' of your offer she said, "That's why Everton are called 'The People's Club'," and I fully endorse her comment. Once again, thank you for your kind gesture.

Derek Knox
312 Posted 16/09/2022 at 20:02:18
Hi All, just found out I have a Ticket to the Ball, or rather to watch the Ball, hopefully going into West Ham's Goal more than they inflict on us. So will meet most after the game at Dixie's Statue. hope we can get Taxi's to BM. 👍💙
Stephen Vincent
313 Posted 16/09/2022 at 20:25:21
If you look at the plans for the redevelopment of the Old Lady the statues appear on them.
Will Mabon
314 Posted 16/09/2022 at 20:35:28
Stephen, bit of luck that's just a little artistic speculation. Maybe some replicas suggested?

I can definitely see a case for a meaningful acknowledgement of the long history of Goodison but I wouldn't like those guys left "alone" when the move happens...

Neil Copeland
315 Posted 16/09/2022 at 21:05:02
John #311, pleased to help and meet up
Andy Crooks
316 Posted 16/09/2022 at 21:19:58
I've been to the last few get togethers. Couldn't get a flight this time. Hope you have the best evening ever. Will miss you guys. I am certain you will be celebrating a win. Have a ball!!!
Dave Abrahams
317 Posted 17/09/2022 at 09:55:42
Andy (316),you will be missed Andy, I hope everything is okay at home, very best wishes.
Geoff Lambert
318 Posted 17/09/2022 at 10:09:11
Lets hope the blues can show a bit more respect than the red shite tomorrow. Our class will show through. Not like these gobshites.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.

How to get rid of these ads and support TW

© ToffeeWeb