John Bramley-Moore, slavery and the site of Everton’s new stadium

Initially, I thought they were going to poke about Russian money involement, blah blah yawn, but they are actually focussing on John Bramley-Moore's slaver history, and what Everton should be doing about it.

It's a good listen - many people know about it, many people don't. It's not hard at times to feel like they are trying to undermine our pride in a fantastic new stadium by shaming the history of the person to which the dock was named after. Certainly shame of the slave trade, and its contribution to what Liverpool became, yes – but not shaming the stadium and what it stands for now.

It is complicated, especially about what we should be doing about it, and deffo kicks up allsorts of feelings, and at the same time they do stress it isn't just our problem, it just doesn't name them. Just us. Uncomfortable indeed.

It generated a pretty wide-ranging discussion on that thread which is well worth reading for those interested.

By all means make reference to it as an illuminating history project in the new build but don't go over the top in self-flagellation. It happened a long time ago with little to no bearing on the footy club or ground where we will be taking residence.

Continually rehashing conflict only promotes antagonism – look at the Middle East and Ireland... there comes a time when sleeping dogs must be left to lie in peace.

Nothing, it's history... gone... in the past.

Rename the stadium by all means, who gives a shit what it's called anyway?

John Bramley-Moore was of a different time, history is there to be learnt from not erased.

We are a football club – not a vehicle for history erasers to pin their badge on.

Now a Kopite journalist is trying to make an issue of the city's slave trade over a century ago, pinning it on Bramley-Moore, and then jumping into our racism problem that all clubs had or have to this day.

No mention of their manager sanctioning players wearing tee-shirts supporting Suarez over the same issue. Moral entitlement when it suits rises again.

I guess this might also happen with the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock. Whether Everton have their own plans, I've no idea, but I'd be surprised if they don't. But it might be hard to find a major port in the country, like Bristol, for example, where a similar history doesn't exist, to whatever degree.

We obviously can't do that although I'm sure some plaque will be in place. I love Liverpool history and it was a big part of our culture – no airbrushing, just fact.

Yes, it's part of Liverpool history – we absolutely do not need to be talking about Kopites.

I wouldn't have brought his football allegiance up but surely it's very relevant in this case? Naïve to think otherwise, imo.

I'm a member of ToffeeWeb, I want to read articles on here, not have to go and sign in elsewhere.

On the slavery topic, if everything in the world was demolished because of its link with slavery then there would be nothing left.

Far better to focus on the history than try to deal with today's problem.

The historical facts about John Bramley-Moore are not in dispute. (Are they?) Slavery is a historical fact, as others have said. We should embrace the history for exactly what it is. History.

In the very present and near future, meanwhile, there's a big football tournament coming up and I'm pretty pissed off it's actually going ahead.

The World Cup in Qatar has to be the most corrupt decision not just by FIFA but by all of the countries involved to be sending their teams out to play in very recently built stadiums where thousands of poorly paid migrant workers died under slave-like conditions.

I may just write to The Athletic to remind them that it's still happening today and they need to make some front page news that could help bring an end to the Qatari slave trade that's still going on despite the small forced changes that have seen the workers finally get a minimum wage and better conditions.

And please do not ridicule my opinions as pathetic. No wonder posters leave the site.

I also am at a loss as to what, in its entire history, Ireland has done to Great Britain to deserve this type of derision.

That is absolutely pathetic.

Des, I think Barry's reference was to Northern Ireland and The Troubles.

Irish indentured servants

And since you can't help yourself from considering my opinions as “pathetic”, I shall refrain from posting again.

Instead of taking your ball home, why not try to explain how exactly this is tarnishing the new stadium?

Oh, and weren't we selling the rights to name (rename?) the stadium.

I thought their main concern was losing the Unesco World Heritage listing, which happened last summer.

The dock walls are Grade II listed, and have not been demolished. Just rather hard to see them any more...

And I haven't checked this for sure but the Everton Stadium branding is an obvious precursor to selling the naming rights and is perhaps in the interim a judicious way to start moving us away from the Bramley-Moore Dock moniker?

Michael is right. I'm referring to the troubles originating from the 1600s which, on the face of things, seems more than enough time to square matters.

We've had two world wars come and go in the interim with most combatants now getting on just fine. I don't think the Germans have bombed one of our chippies since.

Anyway, my view is to learn from history, and I think history teaches us never to name anything after a living or recently deceased person, because times change and nobody is perfect.

I doubt if anyone will be referring to Bramley-Moore when talking about our stadium in a few years time.

I'll go light and go geography geek again. Opinion time on the definition of L8. To me, Aigburth ended at the end of Aigburth Road. Was the bar on the right called Cheers after the US programme? I remember drinks at bars on Lark Lane too. I digress.

When you got to the end of Aigburth Road, if you went left and then took the right hook onto Park Road, you were in the Dingle (I'm on the 82C now!!!).

If you went right and ended up on Princes Avenue going past Granby Street, you were in Toxteth.

That was and is my take of the area.

Anyway, Liverpool has a rich history. Just like the rest of the UK and most countries in the world, we played our part in the good, the bad and the ugly that made the country and history. Let's not talk about 20th Century Germany. Every country has its dark past. As for Spain, practically a military dictatorship until the early 80s. Recognise the wrongs of the past but let's not beat ourselves up. We're actually a country that historically has been ahead of the game in terms of freedom, rights and progression.

Like anything in history, we recognise the rights and wrongs of the past. We can't change them. We live with them, we learn from them.

Liverpool Football club can live with theirs if they ever bother to acknowledge them.

Lessons learned. Lessons identified. Put things into context but learn so we we don't make the same mistakes again.

But it doesn't mean we should necessarily be slating individuals who were simply operating in the context of the time they were born, lived and worked.

Liverpool has a proud heritage of welcoming people from different backgrounds. If I'm not mistaken, the UK's oldest Chinese and Black communities? And due to our sea faring heritage always welcoming to outsiders. Goodness, look at all of our names. The pseudo second capital of Ireland and the capital of North Wales!!!

Very little in that I could disagree with except for the little matter of responsibility, ie successive British Governments failing time and again to treat each tribe in a fairminded manner and then washing their hands of the matter when tnings go wrong. Your post is a classic example.

Normally I would not comment but you do have previous, Barry.

Although I personally think that Michael Lynch's second paragraph @26 probably explains it better than anything else, mate!

The latest stadium-related article on the Official Everton Website still talks about "Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock". Like beauty, in this case, tarnish is in the eye of the beholder.

The vicious commentary and reaction to what happened long long ago is more likely due to a breakdown in generational trust. And I absolutely agree with Michael Lynch's solution but would suggest that the discussion will be forced elsewhere and I'm not cheering for that I just think that is how it is.

We can bury our heads in the sand but it kind of always will be referred to as that. It's history.

More importantly, what's the future? Obviously there will be sponsorship and naming rights that will take precedence.

But Goodison renamed? The Trinity Stadium? The Mersey Arena?

It would be nice to give it a name.

Let's not start talking about naming the stands. It will kick off!!!

In the context of geography at the time, not too dissimilar a move from what the then Wimbledon, now MK Dons done. Geographically moved significantly at the time.

Closing pubs? I didn't know that. Sinful.

And it might become analogous to Mere Field being rebranded once the stadium had been built.

But your next bit I don't understand... Why rename Goodison Park? I hope they don't do that. (Let's not even go there!)

One of the pleasing things about the naming of stands is that (I believe I am correct in saying) no-one on here uses those new names that Kenwright and chums came up with.

A WW1 battle was lost and the General in charge blamed it on a lack of artillery shells which, in turn, was passed on to Woolwich Arsenal who blamed munitions workers as being so well paid that they stayed in the pub at lunchtime rather than returning to work, hence pubs closing at 3pm to force them back.

I suppose we could be thankful that Off-Licences may not yet have been invented.

When the city was laid out as it grew, the streets and buildings were named after local dignitaries, and I imagine all of them – whether directly, indirectly or by turning a blind eye – were involved in the trade.

The thing is, you can't change history, and nobody today bears any responsibility. So, to me, this article is just virtue-signalling.

I don't really know what "virtue-signalling" is (besides a political catchphrase), but there are lots of TWers in other places with little knowledge of Liverpool's role in the slave trade and zero awareness of who Bramley-Moore was.

The Ashton article a year ago was my first acquaintance with the topic, and I found it and the subsequent discussion fascinating. I have the same reaction to the piece in The Athletic.

I guess I'm signaling its virtues.

Yes, explanatory plaques are the way to deal with statues etc which have history that we now find uncomfortable.

"Virtue signalling is the popular modern habit of indicating that one has virtue merely by expressing disgust or favour for certain political ideas or cultural happenings".

Like expressing disgust for virtue signalling.

It was the thinly veiled attempt by Simon Hughes to resurrect past racial issues associated with Everton which annoyed me. He's a dedicated RS supporter whose written many articles on the RS, hardly an unbiased view on those aspects.

It smacks of some of those exchanges you see on Twitter sometimes with RS and Blues trying to score points off each other bringing up Heysel etc. It arrived as a “Your Stories” in my inbox so I read it, but I'm unlikely to renew my subscription to The Athletic which ran out today!

I'm not sure what "previous" I have but feel remarkably confident in thinking you're probably right. 😃

Michael. She can't be Goodison mark 2 and I know the advertising rights will take over. But I'd like the young lady to have a name rather than become a King Power, an Emirates or a Etihad.

We are going to dominate our famous waterfront so let's give her an identity. Linked to our identity.

God, I'm getting emotional again thinking about leaving the old girl. It's only about 18 months until we see the last ball kicked there. I'll be a blubbing wreck come 2024.

Well, it is going to be a Jumbo (747) sized stadium after all! 😃😃

That kind of spectacle should attract a large crowd of Sun and Daily Star readers and put some distance between the club and the man whose name is tied to the land.

It is, indeed, a very studious article but I'm not sure it belongs on The Athletic and, if it does, the resident Everton correspondents, Greg and Paddy, probably should have had some insight or oversight.

Because the dredging up of past racist incidents in connection with Everton in the 1980s was wholly unnecessary. It was an attempt to thread Bramley-Moore's slave-trading past through racism in the present with Everton as the common link.

We did deal with this topic when Joe Mulhern's article at the LSE came out (as MK points and out and links above) and my feelings haven't changed. It's been called Bramley-Moore Dock since the 1800s and the name will and should persist in some form regardless of whoever wins the naming rights for the stadium but I hope the club do work with the International Slavery Museum to address it and use it to educate for visitors to the site.

Bramley-Moore Dock has existed now over the course of 3 centuries. I don't recall it being mentioned previously. I know my city well but didn't even know it existed despite having driven past it probably hundreds of times. So why now?

I had a proper London Kopite try to engage with me last night. I gave him about 30 seconds. That was 30 seconds too long given his knowledge of his apparent club and football. I turned my back.

At least now I've been triggered, I go into the weekend bitter, twisted and proud.

Bitter with reason. Twisted with cause. Always proud.

Taking back the city and they don't like it.

One of my red sisters lives in Wallasey, close to the seafront, every time we speak she mentions it as an eyesore she wakes up to. I laugh and tell her not to worry because, when it's fully built and lit up, it will ruin her night as well..

But the point is they are starting to look at us with envy, it just comes out as snide remarks. (How many times do I endure the association of BMD with the wastewater sewage treatment plant next door?)

So it's getting to them – not even banter now. They are slipping from the top table. So, what's it like now your second class? Taking back the city.

Something beautiful from something ugly. Doing the right thing. Malicious RS dismissed with a wave of the hand.

Job done. Don't think I'll be revisiting this thread. No need

Having said that, some pricks will probably still try to drag Dixie's statue into the Mersey.

Years ago, I visited Neanderthal in West Germany. The Neanderhole is a gorge were Neanderthal Man originated, I felt some sort of connection – could it be a distant relative invented fire or the wheel? ... and I now stand being accused of causing countless deaths in fires and being run over by vehicles.

I'd better check my piggy bank or even better gain access to Kenwright's gaffe and get my arm down the back of his sofa.

I agree with your sentiments about being sick to death about Liverpool and the Slavery issue. Having lived in North America for some 50 years and travelled throughout the southern states of USA, I can actually comment on the things related to the slave trade.

Just to name a few places, one can learn history from places like the Frogmore Plantation in Louisiana. The conditions the slaves were living and working under not as extreme as indicated.

When Abe Lincoln abolished slavery, conditions changed for the slaves – they were no longer housed or fed by the plantation.

The Andrew Jackson plantation in Nashville, Tennessee, was a similar story.
I can state clearly that the living conditions were as good if not better than the appalling conditions people were living in in Liverpool and the north of England at the time.

It should be also noted that slavery itself was rampant in the mills, coal mines and the work associated with the shipping industry in Liverpool during this era.
The same people exploiting the slaves in the USA were also exploiting the people of Britain.

Among about 3 or 4 portacabins explaining the history of Everton FC and the docks history is a room solely about the slave trade triangle which is not glossed over.

The visitor centre seems to be run by volunteers and Everton fans and should be commended on their time and effort. It is not an official EFC site. Maybe the writer of this article missed this little detail...

I can't help think there is something underhand the way the writer links Everton to the appalling slave trade. Would he have preferred we built on Trafalgar Dock? Or Nelson Dock?

He almost drifts into parallel universe debate when he casually states without Bramley-Moore there would be no prosperity (for some) in Liverpool and therefore EFC and LFC wouldn't have existed? Ruling out any alternative future.

This idea that perpetuates of Everton fans being overwhelmingly racist while Liverpool fans were all so enlightened and civilised because John Barnes played for them?? It infuriates me, it is a well-researched article but seems very confused about what it is trying to say.

Maybe the episode of LFC openly supporting Luis Suarez with tee-shirts etc could have been thrown in for a little balance?

So when Everton bought the 100-year lease for Bramley-Moore Dock, they inherited the stain of association, did they? Like buying a house where a murder took place. Is this our responsibility now?

Will we record its history respectfully? I think they will.

More than any Council or English Heritage or Unesco did or will ever do.

Hopefully we have learned from the past and equality has been pretty well established now. Although I can't help thinking it has gone over the top in many cases with people using the Racist Card which, only seems to work one way.

“They said it wouldn't happen,
They said we had no dosh,
They said it won't get finished
So thank you Senor Mosh.
But now it's getting bigger,
Reaching for the sky,
And when we finally move there,
You'll hear the blue boys cry”!

“Oh we hate Bill Shankly and we hate St. John, but most of all we hate big Ron, and we'll hang the kopites one by one on THE BANKS OF THE ROYAL BLUE MERSEY”.

Slavery was going on big style by the Romans, in the Middle and Far East, within Africa itself a thousand years before John Bramley-Moore.

Maybe the whole world should spend the next 10 years whipping each other over it all…

Wonder how many folk would actually enjoy and volunteer for an extra whipping?

"We don't mind what the RS say"
and they don't matter.

There is only one "People's Club" and it's not red.

Many of the Vikings came from Norway, and when they came and invaded England, they would cart many English back to their homeland and some were treated as slaves.

Pot, kettle, black springs to mind regards this Mr Simon Hughes who wrote the piece for The Athletic. Maybe that's why all the RS are savages!! It's been passed down generations since the 8th century, from Norwegian to Norwegian family, culminating in what we see today.

After Slavery Stadium is built and they row down the river in their longboats blowing their horns, or each others horns as the case may be, seeing our new Valhalla, they may change their allegiance. Though I doubt they'll get a season ticket.

Brilliant and thank you. All my relatives, starting in the 1950s, were from Liverpool, most in that area from Aigburth and on through the Dingle. My Uncle was a Rozzer at Lark Lane PS and most from the Bible Belt along Park Lane (Jacobs, Moses, Isaac, etc.)

Full height of Everton Stadium revealed

Rising above the Royal Blue Mersey. Dominating one of the most famous waterfronts in the world. Taking back our city.

The actuality of it being an honour to the great William Ralph Dean wouldn't enter their vacuous skulls.

[Ignore Liverpool ship builders supplying ships to the south during the American Civil War – it was pre-togger.]

If you look around 1:25 you can also see The Danny in the far corner (black funnel), moored opposite the United Utilities Plant.

We keep getting the videos of progress, which is great, but I'd like some occasional updates to say if progress is as planned to allow us to start here in 2024-25.