FAB publishes Everton hierarchy's response to supporters' questions

20/02/2023 248comments  |  Jump to last

The Everton Fan Advisory Board have made public the response to a list of questions submitted to Everton FC's owner and Board of Directors concerning the running of the club.

The FAB held a series of open meetings with supporters last month to hear their grievances and collate a burgeoning list of concerns around the direction in which the club was heading, Everton's battles to remain within the Premier League's Profitability and Sustainability regulations, failures in the transfer market and the  hierarchy's plans for restoring the Blues as an outfit competing at the top end of the top flight.

Some of those questions were addressed by majority shareholder Farhad Moshiri in a face-to-face interview with FAB chair Jazz Bal a month ago but full responses to the questions have now been published in PDF form on the FAB website.

The responses are broken down by section, starting with Everton's strategic vision and objectives, with the Board explaining that the review of the footballing side of operations was conducted in-house and that "[t]here have been evident, tangible and visible outputs of the findings of the review being implemented, which included, as a key first step, the employment of a Director of Football," who has since implemented "widespread further changes across the Club’s football operations at all levels – including recruitment staff, Academy and players".

Article continues below video content

The club also confirmed that they have no plans to restrore annual general meetings with shareholders, reaffriming instead their commitment to "engagement and collaboration with shareholders and fans ... with plans to give all supporters a stronger voice in the Club through structured dialogue with a diverse range of supporter groups including the Fan Advisory Board".


Reader Comments (248)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer ()

Karl Masters
1 Posted 21/02/2023 at 00:41:27
I'm personally disgusted by the behaviour of a small minority of our fans, who have told the Board they must not attend our home games in such an intimidating way the Police won't guarantee their safety and have advised them to stay away.

Firstly, it should never be acceptable to intimidate a fellow fan (which is what they are as well as Board members) into not attending. Never.

Secondly, just who do they think will replace the Board? You can't just find another one. The owner of the Club can appoint whoever they like. It's not a fans' decision.

And lastly, yes the record ain't great, but on the other hand these fans are also being brainwashed by the media into thinking we have wasted half a billion quid on transfers, but we've sold a lot as well, often because players wanted to leave – eg Lukaku.

Our net spend in the last 5 years is not even in the top 10 of English football anymore after two years of virtually net zero spend. Even Fulham have a higher net spend. West Ham's is double Everton's. Meanwhile. Moshiri is the only person, and I mean the only person, in the last 30 years brave enough to get a proper new stadium built in a great location and not just a cheap, second-rate effort in the middle of nowhere like Kirkby.

It's already putting off players coming, it's driven one out and yes the owner is the custodian of our Club, but he wants success as much as we do. It's his money on the line after all. We have no divine right to success, but intimidating the Board members is wrong on every level and does a lot of harm to our reputation. Lynch mob tactics. Be careful what you wish for. There's always another Glazer family, Venkys, Hicks & Gillette, Lerner, Egghead, Mike Ashley etc, etc lurking out there.

And whilst I know I'll get a load of abuse for this post, every Everton fan I speak to on the subject agrees that protesting peacefully is acceptable, but this has gone way too far.

Mike Gaynes
2 Posted 21/02/2023 at 00:56:51
It's an interesting read.

One lesson has clearly not been learned -- plain-spoken communication with the fan base.

For example, this mush-mouth passage regarding fan engagement -- my parenthetical comments in italics:

The Club is regarded (by whom?) as having robust and advanced Fan Engagement channels that mirror ‘best practice’ recommendations (like what?) identified (by whom?) as part of the independent Fan-Led Review. The Club will further utilise (how?) the authentic (as opposed to fake?) channels of communication with fan groups, integrating the voice of supporters to inform strategic decision-making (about what?).

This sort of corporate-speak is a fine example of what really pisses people off about this club's communications style. It reads like something that was massaged through nine versions before being approved.

If Moshiri and the Board are really interested in satisfying the FAB's questions, they'd better learn to speak another language, because this one ain't getting it done.

Bill Gienapp
3 Posted 21/02/2023 at 01:05:02
I skimmed through it, but it just seemed like a lot of stonewalling and canned political responses.
John Pendleton
4 Posted 21/02/2023 at 01:37:38
Summary for those who won't read the full report…

Fan: Why are we so shit after spaffing half a billlion quid?

Moshiri: I think what true fans want to know is how great is the new stadium. Compared to others, it's in a different league.

Fan: That's exactly what we're worried about. What plans have…

Moshiri: Security! Security!

Tom Hughes
5 Posted 21/02/2023 at 01:57:46

What has gone too far? The protest has been peaceful.

Where is the evidence of death threats? The same place as the evidence for headlocks?

A handful of kids chasing a couple of cars did not force Gordon out, he (and the club) was edging for it for months and no players have been deterred. They simply didn't want to come, because we've been diabolical and there has been little or no evidence of us seriously chasing almost anyone except relative freebies, despite Calvert-Lewin's injuries and 2 major outgoings in the last 2 windows because P&S rules have been at our door for months and we've been largely hamstrung.

As regards being careful what we wish for and references to other carpet baggers or poor owners… seriously? We've had death by a thousand cuts over the past 2 decades. The club was run into the ground by Kenwright with only Moyes papering over the cracks of gross mismanagement.

The lists of failures, debacles and lies has been endless. We sold everything off until there was nothing left to sell but the club itself. Moshiri has had to spend a fortune just to clear the debts incurred over those years… yet the losses have continued to mount year on year.

Moshiri can readily replace the board if he so wishes but he's essentially an absent landlord and doesn't appear to want that responsibility. He's only interested in getting the stadium across the line to package the club for a sale to minimise his losses; he's been unable to secure loans to cover the rest of the build because the club is a financial basket case... hollowed out by decades of managed decline and incompetence.

So there's no need to tell people to be careful about what we wish for – we've had more than enough to beware of with what we've actually got. Then of course, we could also lament the missed opportunities of other owners who have taken over clubs elsewhere and transformed them... apparently some after approaching our lord and master and being turned away.

The charlatan chairman and his lackeys have to go... be careful what you accept.

Christine Foster
6 Posted 21/02/2023 at 02:06:00
The responses are carefully worded padding, that ensures a lot of words are written but the actual answer is not given. Very much like Prime Ministers Question time.

Perhaps the questions need to be more incisive, eg:

1. Why has there been no funds available for transfers when needed by the previous three managers as stated by them?

2. Why has the club failed to replace the few quality players we have had, with any key replacements. It is well publicised that the club have not had transfer funds available to enable it to compete with other Premier League clubs. This season in particular to be specific.

3. Who was singularly responsible for the club falling foul of the Profit and Sustainability rules that have prevented the said purchase of quality players over the past 3 seasons. Without such we have been in relegation battles for 2 of them.

4. The club has chosen to limit its involvement with supporters in general, electing to communicate with those groups it wishes. Including the Everton Shareholders Association who very publicly posted a petition with over 15,000 respondents having no confidence in how the club was being run. Why has the club not responded?

Dennis Stevens
7 Posted 21/02/2023 at 02:10:39
Karl, are you merely misinformed or are you deliberately making stuff up?

If you cannot substantiate your statements then you should apologise to supporters & ask for your lies to be removed.

Andrew Keatley
8 Posted 21/02/2023 at 02:25:47
Karl (1),

As far as I'm concerned, it was the board themselves who significantly escalated the level of discontent with match-day fans by releasing rumours that a fan or fans physically assaulted Denise Barrett-Baxendale.

The board willingly and knowingly cast our fans in the role of unruly mob in their desperation for the high ground of victim and to garner sympathy.

Instead of allowing the police to investigate such an instance of alleged assault, they rushed to authorise their own cowardly statement via some phantom security assessment organised by them, with no involvement from the Merseyside Police, who said that no threats had been reported to them prior to the release of the statement.

To top it off, this statement, which felt to me like a forged note to the teacher to get out of cross-country running, was released on the day of the home game against Southampton which inevitably caused a huge distraction for anyone inside Goodison, and put a horrendously unflattering spotlight on our club.

I feel now that we fans have been the victims of self-serving Kenwright and his cronies for years and I support our fans doing whatever they can to bring an end to his position within the club as I believe it is now untenable. He has become an unwelcome presence and created a poisonous sideshow and if he had the best interests of the club at heart then he would see that and resign.

But Kenwright has never had the best interests of the club at heart, and surely that is patently clear for all to see now. I feel a bit sorry for Barrett-Baxendale, Ingles and Sharp as they are probably just low-value chess pieces who are clueless and powerless to stop Queen Kenwright from controlling everything that happens on the board.

Christine Foster
9 Posted 21/02/2023 at 02:42:00

I have just written a long and detailed reply to you. And binned it.

Because I am fed up, like you, with elements of the support of this club. I disagree with almost everything you say and, as Tom Hughes eloquently points out in his reply, the demonstrations have been peaceful with full support of the team.

You mention intimidation. That no fan should intimidate another. That should also be the case with the board of directors. They blackened the good name of all supporters with their intended actions – they knew what they were doing. It backfired, badly.

There is a culture of arrogance in our club; we do not matter, close communication down, say nothing, etc etc...

So I ask you, we are still on the precipice of relegation brought on because of years of appalling mis-management of our club. We say nothing? We walk to the cliff and just walk over without a whimper?

No, Karl, not any more. We have the best supporters in the land. Every one of them loves Everton and wants them to do well, but only a few have vested interests and for too long they have made sure they come first.

No abuse, Karl... I just totally disagree with you.

Martin Mason
10 Posted 21/02/2023 at 03:08:55
Karl @1,

Absolutely spot on but not a word will be accepted by the delusional and vociferous minority.

Kieran Kinsella
11 Posted 21/02/2023 at 03:09:52

I get your anxiety but I think it's misguided. There's no evidence anyone snubbed us on account of the fan protests.

I also strongly suspect the board are exaggerating the threat issue to undermine legitimate questions. But I respect your view and, like you, I'm not in favor of a mob bullying others into submission.

Christine Foster
12 Posted 21/02/2023 at 04:14:38
Martin #10

"not a word will be accepted by the delusional and vociferous minority"

Where is the majority then, Martin? Are you by any chance indicating you and Karl speak for them?

Really? Because by default you paint anyone with opposing views as a "delusional and vociferous minority" that's the many thousands of match goers, media and punditry, who now, somewhat belatedly, all share the same view regards the board and their management of this club?

Confronting the board is no longer required, the demonstrations speak for themselves.

Jay Harris
13 Posted 21/02/2023 at 04:23:56

Interesting that the first post is in defense of our shambles of a board. If you are not a club affiliate then you sure are making a good pretence of it.

For nigh-on 25 years, the supposed chairman has told lie after lie and led the most loss-ridden years the club has ever endured despite the riches that the Premier League has wrought for most other clubs.

In any other situation, he would have been obliged to do the honourable thing and resign instead of which he surrounded himself with overpromoted acolytes who would never have gotten those jobs at any other club.

You talk about who we could replace them with? Well, I would tell you my cat could do a better job – and I don't even have a cat! But, on a more serious note, apart from causing chaos and lack of leadership, what do you think they bring to the club whilst taking home fat salaries and enjoying cordon bleu hospitality until their lies about the supporters got out and now they are too ashamed – not frightened – to show their faces?

Even Dr Keith Harris said it was the most dysfunctional board he has ever worked with when he resigned.

Trevor Birch came in and it only took him 6 weeks to decide that Everton was a basket case.

Jay Harris
14 Posted 21/02/2023 at 04:26:48
Christine pay no mind to Martin – he just likes to provoke other posters.

He himself has criticised the board recently.

True supporters now know the truth and I would argue that they are in the vast majority who oppose this board.

Matthew Williams
15 Posted 21/02/2023 at 05:01:22
The three questions I want asked, never mind answered, are...

1. Why is our away form so poor, season after season?

2. We seem to have some sort of inferiority complex when going to Anfield, why is this?

3. Why have our club treated for the best part of 60 years the League Cup competition with such utter contempt?

Sadly our board wouldn't dream of answering such tricky questions, unless there was a gun pointed at their heads!

Mick Davies
16 Posted 21/02/2023 at 06:03:12
Martin Mason @ 10

"Karl@1 absolutely spot on but not a word will be accepted by the delusional and vociferous minority"

Yes, very delusional: battling relegation again, after being told it won't happen again – suffering through lack of strikers when we were assured there would be one coming in – losing two important team members for a combined £100M but not having them replaced - watching Kenwright working 24/7 for a new owner, while every other club got one, and when we eventually did, he still remained in complete control (and £25M richer).

Yes, we are very delusional.

Billy Roberts
18 Posted 21/02/2023 at 06:46:21
Karl Masters @1,

You are Kenwright's dream of a fan, blindly accepting his and the board's version of events... I'm finding it amusing to see the tables turned on them with their "no-show" tactics.
Imagine the conversations between them all now?

Oh what a tangled toffee Web we weave when at first we practice to deceive, eh?

Funny how you inadvertently condemn Kenwright's legacy of failure when praising Moshiri's success in the building of a new stadium yet seem puzzled by the fans' desire to see him and the board gone.

You can't just replace the board you say so this board have been here since 1878 have they? Absolute nonsense, you sack them and replace them with better individuals. That's how professional, successful clubs operate, remember the motto?

Well said, Tom Hughes, brilliant response: "be careful what you accept".

Well said, Christine Foster – it's lily-livered attitudes like Karl's that would take us over the cliff, not the superb fans who have combined intelligent protest with great support.

Frank Sheppard
19 Posted 21/02/2023 at 07:07:05
Does Moshiri not realise that we are top of a long list of “worst stats” ie, lowest goals scored, worst away record, for a while the only professional team in England not to have won a match since late October, are the first ones that come to mind.

His long wordy responses rarely address, never mind answer the big issues.

Rob Hooton
20 Posted 21/02/2023 at 07:21:12
I'm split on this – Moshiri has invested heavily in the club, and we almost have the cracking new stadium we all know we have needed for years.

That's the good side of Moshiri.

He should have sacked Kenwright years ago, his money has been squandered by the idiots he has appointed and kept in place.

I imagine Kenwright has been bullshitting him in his absence all these years and blaming everyone else for the transfer failings (which he apparently has oversight of) and other complete failures to run the club properly.

I guess I am ‘part defending' Moshiri who probably thought we'd be competing for Champions League spots these last few years after his investment. There are plenty worse potential owners out there who would have saddled the club with more debt with no new stadium. His failure has been in who he has trusted to run the club (and kept them in place).

Danny O’Neill
21 Posted 21/02/2023 at 07:35:44
A lot to go through there, So I'll keep this short.

He obviously has faith in his board. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. That isn't changing next week. And right now, next week is what matters. Maybe he looks at it in the summer?

He appears to be looking for investment rather than selling.

If we take his word, he remains committed and willing to continue to fund albeit within the rules.

The stadium is on its way. Strategic thinking, but I hope we don't cut our tail off in the meantime and end up at the vets. I love the footage of the stadium rising but can only think of Saturday right now. And then Wednesday.

There is a lot of emphasis on the DoF role and Thelwell.

Like I said, a lot to go through there, so they are just my initial early morning observations.

On the FAB, having been a sceptic, at least we have a place and are getting feedback, whether we agree with it or not. It's early days so let's see where it goes.

Ernie Baywood
22 Posted 21/02/2023 at 07:38:08
While I might not agree with all of Karl's post, add me to the list of people who thought the thinly veiled threat at the board went too far.

As I said when they first made their 'headlock' allegation... they'd given a clear indication that the fans didn't really need to push too hard and certainly don't need to cross any lines.

At the first sign of peaceful protest, they cracked and attacked the fans. The media cottoned on. So did the police.

Just give them enough rope.

David Bromwell
23 Posted 21/02/2023 at 07:55:55
I think Ron at No 20 sums things up pretty well.

For now, I think we need to move on as we will still have a real battle to secure our place in the Premier league. If we can do that, and the manager can sort the squad out over the summer and with the new ground evolving at pace, the future is looking better.

Clearly, we need a more professional board and it's time for the Chairman and others to move on. Let's hope Mr Moshiri is beginning to realise this. Let's give Kenwright some sort of honorary roll and make sure he is well away from having any executive powers.

But for the moment and until the end of the season, we simply need to concentrate on winning matches.

Jim Bennings
24 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:00:36

Have a word with yourself.

The club is being destroyed and run into the ground.

Are you seriously happy with the way the club is being managed by the hierarchy?

We should be where Newcastle and Spurs are now, Brighton or Fulham even, instead of that we are having annual relegation battles.

The board should NEVER be allowed near the stadium AGAIN.

Danny O’Neill
25 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:04:45
Well, Karl has triggered a few emotions!

Karl, I always welcome and read alternate views. They often educate me and sometimes even change mine. Nothing wrong with that. If we all had the same view, life would be boring. And if we don't learn from others, we become ignorant and insular.

I don't like your reference to the supporters. That's playing into the hands of the cowardly board's messaging to deflect blame.

I'm notoriously positive about Everton. I get told off for it by a few regulars on here through personal messages, but we are mates, so I take that.

But to accuse the lifeblood of this club, who give their heart and soul of things they haven't done has really upset and offended me. I can't forgive them for that.

As for the car chases. Well Tom Davies's windows weren't smashed (look across the park for that type of behaviour) and Big Yerry got out to talk to the supporters. Yes, they shouted at him in frustration, but no-one attacked him. Personally, I have big respect for the big man for doing that.

Don't blame the supporters for caring passionately about the club we have grown up with from the cradle.

I've watched the protests. I saw them march down Goodison Road on Saturday. Vocal, passionate, angry, but peaceful. No violence or attempt to do so whatsoever. And then when in the ground, totally focussed on the team as always.

I attend as many Everton matches as I can and personally haven't heard anyone threaten physical violence towards the board.

Shouting and verbal abuse through frustration maybe. But I often get that when I'm in the Arkles or my local, stood with Chelsea fans and London Reds. So what? I can handle it and it never comes to violence.

How they can stay away from Goodison is just incomprehensible to me.

Sorry to go all Army, but it is paramount to the Officers sending the soldiers into battle and not being with them. I think the phrase was Lions led by Donkeys. Lack of leadership.

It's only Tuesday!!!

Jim Bennings
26 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:07:21
You have a very short memory, Karl, the way the club allowed itself on the eve of the Southampton game to alienate its fanbase, the one core that kept the club up in the Premier League last season.

Spreading false information about boardroom members being placed in headlocks despite nothing ever being recorded by Merseyside police and nothing coming out from the club in the immediate aftermath of this phantom headlock.

Selling a player for £45 million then Moshiri promising the fans we will sign a striker, knowing full well that as the lowest goalscorers in the league, that failure could we'll see the club relegated.

Big deal we are getting a new stadium, it's 20 years too late unfortunately.

It will just be another shiny new building in the Championship like Sunderland's Stadium of Light and the Ricoh Arena or whatever it's called these days.

Jim Bennings
27 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:11:40
I'm sorry but the board made themselves the victims here in the national press before that Southampton game.

Who exactly advised them to stay away?

They were never told to stay away, they made that choice themselves and turned the tables on the fans to make us look like the villains in the media – something which the media quickly have since learned that is not the case – and it is the actual boardroom that is the villain in all of this.

Tony Abrahams
28 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:13:37
1995 was 28 years ago, does anymore really need to be said?
Christy Ring
29 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:20:29
Karl #1,

So you agree with all the lies and statements the board have issued? Even the police made a statement that they knew nothing about it.

If you were threatened or assaulted, the first thing you'd do is go to the police. All the pundits on Sky Sports and BBC even apologised for their comments blaming the fans. Not surprised Martin Mason supports your comment.

Kenwright and the board have dragged our club and fans into the gutter, and should be held accountable.

Don't be surprised if Karl and Martin get an invite onto the board by Bill.

Danny O’Neill
30 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:25:42
1987 – now 36 years away ,Tony.

And the one continuous resident on the board or in ownership has been present for 34 of those years.

Derek Knox
31 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:29:49
When I first started reading post 1, I assumed Kenwright or one of his sycophants had joined ToffeeWeb under a sobriquet… maybe that is the case but, while agreeing that everyone is entitled to an opinion and TW gives a platform to express it on, I have never seen such a load of biased tosh towards the despicable aforementioned.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Jazz Bal, who was the leading figure of the FAB, had resigned last year when the voices of Evertonians were at least being heard.

Why is it that everyone is so keen to denigrate us as fans, who have always been peaceful in long overdue protests against our shambolic regime, running – or should I say ruining our Club?

Bill Fairfield
32 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:29:58

I'am also personally disgusted by the behaviour of a small minority of our fans.

The Board of Directors.

Robert Tressell
33 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:33:16
We've been a disaster commercially since the start of the Premier League 31 years ago. We haven't been able to compete financially in that entire period. That's largely why we've had a poor side throughout the same period. That's why we have a poor away record, low goalscoring etc etc.

It's because we have hung on in there with a poor side. The Moshiri era has been no different really. Even when we were spending, it was still modest outlays compared with the real big boys.

So the blame really lies at those unable to turn the Premier League into the commercial opportunity others have made it – and it all flows from there.

Karl Masters
34 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:48:06
I think that anybody reading this would regard it as intimidating…. paraphrased as: don't ever come near Goodison Park again ever or we will make your visit a very unpleasant one…

“We demand that the board and owner refrain from attending any further games. Such attendance would prove to be an unwanted distraction for both the fans and the team. It is our belief that you are not fit to lead our club, and your presence would only have a further negative impact.

“Put your egos aside and leave match days to the fans who care about the club and will attempt, once again, alongside Sean Dyche and his team, to drag this team closer to safety at every opportunity available.

“If you choose to attend, you will be met with a post-match protest held outside the director's car park following the game. We will make you aware once again that you are not welcome now, and you never will be again.”

Any normal, sane person reading that would come to the same conclusion. Fellow Evertonians being told to keep away or else. I just think the whole tone is unnecessarily threatening and intimidating. And that, in my book, is wrong. My opinion, and that of many others.

Mal van Schaick
35 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:53:09
What is paramount above all, is that we must stay in the Premier League.

What happens at the end of the season if we have stayed in the Premier League, must be sorted out before the start of the new season. If this means a sale of the club, removal of the owner and others, then this has to be done swiftly in order for the new owner's plan to come to fruition and bring stability to the club. Newcastle did this successfully.

There are a number of other scenarios like the owner and board remaining in place. The club is relegated, etc etc. All I see is turmoil if these scenarios come to fruition.

Peter Warren
36 Posted 21/02/2023 at 08:55:50
First off, I've never been a fan of the board, including Sir Philip Carter. I'm 43 and always thought we were ran shockingly, one of my memories of this was parading Kanchelskis and then after realising he hadn't signed. They've always been incompetent. Kenwright I don't like or dislike – he's just full of shit and always has been.

Moshiri, fair play to him putting his money (or somebody else's) in. However, he is a significant part of the mismanagement. He's the guy at top and the buck stops with him.

I can cope with his sound bites, his 'museum' and 'striker' speeches, him rambling on to Jim White, his “It's not my decision” and all the other silly stuff he says – he's like an embarrassing dad. However, he either has no clue or has left the running of the club to others who have no clue and we are a shambles (or more likely, a bit of both).

I remember one soundbite with him saying "trust me on the money side". Well, we did (we had no choice) and we got very lucky getting away with a lot of losses blaming Covid; otherwise, we would likely have been docked points and relegated.

The fact that he didn't come up with a “clever plan” to manipulate rules (like Chelsea are currently doing) and took us to the brink despite him apparently being an accountant shows how bad he is at his day job, let alone running a Premier League multi-million-pound business. It is plain to see – even if he is a nice guy (I've no idea) – that he is clueless.

On the ground side, it seems excellent – funnily enough, third party professionals have been appointed. Even with this, however, Moshiri seems confused – to be fair he's only slightly out on the price by £200 million (guess it doesn't matter when it's not your money).

Duncan McDine
37 Posted 21/02/2023 at 09:08:40
Jay, you've been on ToffeeWeb long enough to know that Karl is a genuine ‘no strings attached' poster like the rest of us.

I don't agree with everything he says, but it's below the belt to suggest he's attached to the club as some kind of forum-mole!!

John Keating
38 Posted 21/02/2023 at 09:09:52
So far, I know of 5 people who live in a parallel universe:
Putin, Meghan, Harry, Martin and Karl.
Tony Everan
39 Posted 21/02/2023 at 09:11:58
The empty director seats says that their tenure has gone past the point of no return. They've failed, the fans know it and they themselves must know it too.

Mr Moshiri must now be planning for big changes this year, it will all kick in once we are safe and the financial position is better known. The strategy for making those changes may be complex, but he will find a way – out of necessity.

Danny O’Neill
40 Posted 21/02/2023 at 09:22:09
We are absolutely 30 years behind the commercial curve, Robert. That makes it all the more heartbreaking because, on the conception of the Premier League, we were still part of the Big 5 with only Liverpool and Arsenal having won more titles I think.

Man Utd were still on catch up. Man City and Chelsea bouncing between leagues and nowhere to be seen. Tottenham… Well. they're just Tottenham.

The commercial one is a balance for Everton, it was discussed on here recently, when you have what I believe is something like 26,000 out of our 30,000 season ticket holders based in the Merseyside and surrounding area, compared to Liverpool's approximately 6,000, they have to be mindful.

Even the likes of me. Most of my matchday outlay is on travel and spent around the stadium, not in the ground, outside of the price of a ticket. It doesn't go to Everton. I would imagine most are the same as we don't have the facilities to capitalise on thousands of people inside a stadium.

The new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock offers an opportunity, if the club get it right with providing facilities in and around the stadium, to generate income that they own or outsource for a cost. Right now, apart from the Bramley Moore Pub, there's not a lot around there.

I haven't looked again, but last time I think we were about 3rd from bottom in terms of matchday revenue and ticket prices.

Like I say, tricky one for Everton. If they push the prices up, it might deprive many of the diehard local fanbase.

Jerome Shields
41 Posted 21/02/2023 at 09:50:25
Christine #9,

I think as you said, it is carefully worded padding, probably as Mike #2 says, gone the rounds for approval. Initially, it is written in the third person, but evolved into first person with "I think…” Even Denise can slip up peddling the same PR lines.

Though your direct questions are highly relevant, I don't think they would get answered under the guise of being financially sensitive. Probably some of them were asked, but will never see the light of day for that reason.

For me, it is the same old, same old, PR bullshit, with the use of waffle financial and management jargon, with 'effectiveness' a small town outside 'wishful thinking'.

I do think that those in the FAB did a great job in genuinely trying to get the Board to respond appropriately.

Karl needs to look closer at what has actually happened.

Derek Knox
42 Posted 21/02/2023 at 09:56:18
John K @38,

That parallel universe can only be reached by developing a velocity of Warp Factor 9, which is totally illogical, and dangerous, according to Spock!

Live Long and Prosper!

James Hughes
43 Posted 21/02/2023 at 10:19:57
Karl #34,

A very salient point though unpalatable. No one should be told to stay away from Goodison Park or else.

It does unfortunately add credence to Poison Bill's fabricated charade of clear and credible threats to the board. Bill has painted himself into a corner and 90% can now see he is a tissue of lies.

This however does allow him to point fingers and say “See, I told you, it's Infamy, Infamy I tell you, they've all got it in for me!”


Dennis Stevens
44 Posted 21/02/2023 at 10:40:42
Yes, it must be very intimidating for the Board to be told by protestors that their attendance would lead to an after match protest.

Protestors protesting – utterly shocking!

Not only that, but the protestors have even given advance notice that the protest would be outside the director's car park – from where they might possibly be seen and heard by the directors!

The Board must be quaking!

Dave Abrahams
45 Posted 21/02/2023 at 10:45:22
James (43),

I agree that the statement from the protest group, saying if the Board do attend a game at Goodison in the future then they will face a demonstration after the game, should have been left out.

As James says, the Board are “on the ropes” – they have put themselves there by their own actions. They have to retrieve themselves from the situation they have put themselves into so let's see what they do next. The media seem to be getting wise to them – let's not give them scope to get the media back on their side because Kenwright knows how to use this medium.

Leave them alone and they'll come home… waggling their tails behind them.

Christine Foster
46 Posted 21/02/2023 at 10:57:50
Dave, as I said in my post, there is no need to confront the directors, they have truly got the message.

They may not be welcome ever again, but expend no energy in pursuing them, the response from the fans when they try to take their seats will be all that's needed.

Serve it cold, it's more rewarding.

Rob Jones
47 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:01:14
Karl, that is just garbage.
Brian Harrison
48 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:07:17
I can't see how the present situation with the fans and the board can ever be reconciled, and that is not ideal in the long term.

The board have definitely burned their bridges but I don't think Moshiri has any intention of making the changes the fans want.

The protests have been peaceful and it needs to stay that way – don't do anything to allow the finger to be pointed at the fans.

Steve Brown
49 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:11:20
Can't even by bothered to read the FAB summary.

Results are improving with the board boycotting the home games (because that is what they are doing). Now, the fans feel able to unite behind the manager and team. So, I suggest the board stay in the corner they have painted themselves into and miss the rest of the home games this season.

The peaceful protests should continue with the same momentum to keep the pressure on the owner. Don't be put off by the delusional and vociferous minority like Karl, Martin or Ian Edwards. They are just trying to intimidate us.

Tom Hughes
50 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:11:47
Did anyone mind people actually jumping on Peter Johnson's car?

Can't remember him getting much sympathy, nor the attackers much condemnation.

That mainly happened because he sold Dunc. Kenwright sold everything to get and keep control and might've even sold our whole future!

A few banners telling him he's not welcome or to sling his hook is nothing compared to the endless list of failures and lies perpetrated under his scheming stewardship.

He should be thankful to be saved from the imminent dangers of a ground he said would fail its safety certificate over 16 years ago.

Dave Abrahams
51 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:12:48
Christine (46),

Amen to that, you're absolutely correct, as usual, girl, as are all Everton fans on this matter. It's just, if you give Kenwright an inch, he'll take a bleedin' marathon.

Chris Hockenhull
52 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:26:12
I’d forgotten Goebells was on the Board…..
Kevin Molloy
53 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:28:01

I agree. This is a complex situation, we have a billion-pound stadium literally going up, being built by the chap who we are protesting against, all the while at the same time negotiating our way out of a relegation death trap.

We need to be very careful.

Michael Kenrick
54 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:38:36
I think there may be only one way to resolve the impasse between the board and the fans, at least in the short term, but the tone and corporate bravado of the answers to the FAB question shows this is a total non-starter.

They created this ridiculous situation where they banned themselves from Goodison Park. To come back with even a slim chance of not sparking a riot of displeasure, they should first provide a complete, honest and transparent apology – a full mea culpa for the disgusting deceit by which they very successfully played the media and the fans until the elaborate tissue of lies was fully exposed, and backed by the Police, of all people.

Of course, by their very nature and proven duplicity, they cannot and will not do that.

So will they then have the balls to defy the NSNOW challenge and just turn up anyway, as if nothing has happened? Knowing that (in established Kenwright mugshot fashion), if staged well enough, a proportion of the fans will applaud them, while the protestors inside the ground will shout and scream at them only for a limited time – especially if a match is just about to kick-off?

It may not happen against Aston Villa but I can just see them sneaking back in and taking up those empty seats a few minutes after kick-off, thus taking full advantage of the NSNOW promise not to spoil their support of the team by protesting against the board while a match is underway.

Christy Ring
55 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:49:52
Kevin #53,

I agree we can't deny the amount of money Moshiri has spent, and in building the new stadium, but it has certainly run dry, with our shocking recruitment and we're paying the price now.

The money he's wasted by listening to supposedly football people like Kenwright – shouldn't he have checked Kenwright's own record of selling everything even the merchandise and running the club into the ground? That's where we're at now.

Pete Clarke
56 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:50:24

"Each to their own" is one way to put it but I'm assuming you are happy to continue with Bill Kenwright as our Chairman!

One thing is for sure and that is he will take some moving from his position – even with the threats and warnings being thrown around. He's definitely not going to move if he's asked nicely.

Answer these questions, Karl:

Are you happy with the way the club is run?
Are you happy with the quality of football?
Are you happy with our trophy drought?
Would you have been happy with Kirkby?
What were your thoughts with the banning of the AGMs and cutting off the voice of the fans?
Were you happy that Rooney left cheaply?
What were your thoughts on the Kings Dock?
Did you stand with Bill Kenwright and give Dave Moyes a nice round of applause as he left for Man Utd?
Were you happy with Benitez and Allardyce becoming managers of this once proud club?
Were you happy with the sale of our best players and replacing them with shit players?
Did you believe Kenwright when he said Goodison would fail its safety certificate?
Do you believe we have had some good times under Bill's leadership?

The list goes on and on really but I find it hard that anyone who supports Everton can actually believe Kenwright has done anything other than a piss-poor job as chairman. It is, after all, his duty to look after the club and make sure that everyone else is doing a good job. What has happened is the opposite. 'Mediocre' is too nice a word for the way this club has been run.

Bill's done massive damage to our club whilst becoming very rich in doing so but has really taken the piss out of us supporters with his constant lies. Each and everyone of us deserve to be angry at him for what he's done, so politeness is not a way to approach this protest.

Like I said, each to their own but I hope Bill is ousted and suffers long term because of it – just like we have done with every passing season watching crap football played by crap footballers and giving us no hope. The worst may be yet to come too.

All of this was under Kenwright's watch so I'm not sure how you can be surprised at our anger and how you can accept failure so easily.

John Gall
57 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:54:45
Good on you, Karl #1. I largely agree with you.

The modern culture of absurd over-reaction and rage has infected the conversation about our club. I don't think Everton will go down, because we now have a savvy, practical manager who will do a Moyes and steady the ship.

But this is where we have gone wrong – terrible managers and terrible recruitment of players. It happens, to many clubs, and Everton have been out of the 'untouchable' category since 1971, barring those three unexpected years of joy in the 80s.

I'd spin it round the other way – that Everton have not gone down since 1954 is a modern miracle, and that we have maintained our fanbase and swagger in the face of incessant Redshite success is similarly remarkable.

Nil Satis, School of Science etc... has confused many fans. The Everton story is one of resistance and endurance, and not one of glory and trophies. It's this misperception which fuels the rage against the board. And this culture of threats and intimidation needs to be strongly condemned by all fans. Scallies cannot run our club.

Peter Neilson
58 Posted 21/02/2023 at 11:59:12
If the board isn't responsible for players' wages accounting for 95% of turnover, who is?
Mark Taylor
59 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:09:09

Your first post starts with an inaccuracy. You say police advised them to stay away and could not guarantee their safety.

It appears you haven't read the club's response to fan questions. They are asked about this. In particular who advised, specifically whether it was an EFC employee. They chose not to answer this directly; however, if it was police advice, I'm sure they would have clarified it as such.

Connected to this is the claim of a physical assault against the club's CEO. Obviously few if any fans would support such an action but it is telling that the initial claim has since not been vindicated to the extent that the media very obviously changed their own interpretation of the event in the absence of any evidence. As a supporter, I thought that was beneath contempt to attempt to slander Everton fans in that way.

Our net spend in the decade to June 2022 was the 8th highest in Europe, only three Premier League clubs spent more. So that claim was incorrect too.

Top 10 clubs with highest net spend in the last decade

The latter point does support the claim that the owner (or someone he knows) has been generous with funding but I don't think that is in dispute. It is the outcome of that funding, the way it has been managed, that is the issue. And it is the board who are responsible for that.

This is why many, including myself, regard the removal of the present board as the only way to have the chance to build a long-term foundation for success. They are delusional, if not actually dishonest, and some of them are frankly well out of their depth. Peaceful protest in such a scenario is entirely justifiable. We are not mere customers.

Rob Jones
60 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:16:25
Of course, John. It's the "scallies".

For fuck's sake, it's pathetic.

The club has been run into oblivion, and rather than blaming the people in charge, you're blaming the fans who pay their money, and who dragged us from the brink last year.

Never mind the fact that the "headlock" never happened, the fact that the protests have been peaceful, and the fact that the board, and particularly its chairman, are self-serving liars who have proven singularly incapable of running a banana stand, let alone a Premier League football club.

The fact that Kevin Thelwell has spent a year making appointments to positions that any sane, well-run club would have had for years, should ring alarm bells.

Instead, people like you and Karl are slandering a fan base who have been starved of success and respect by the very club who are desperately in need of both their support and their money.

Christy Ring
61 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:18:23
John #57,

You must have missed how the club was run when Kenwright took control. Credit where it's due, Moyes did steady the ship, with little or no money from Bill's 'Corleone' board that he picked, getting rid of Paul Gregg whose wife Anita gave Kenwright the money to buy his shares.

Then he sold Bellefield, Finch Farm, the merchandise rights, and when the club was eventually broke, he sold Rooney, trying to make out that Wayne wanted to leave, which we now know was more lies.

The only reason he sold to Moshiri was that he could remain Chairman. John, all the lies and propaganda is the intimidation of the board, it's you who has the misperception – they are the 'Scallies' – not the fans.

Dave Abrahams
62 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:27:44
John (57)

Would you care to answer the questions Pete (56) is asking?

Martin Mason
63 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:34:19
Christy @61.

There is another side to that though and that was that Kenwright did whatever was needed to keep a bankrupt Everton in business. This was the actual situation but that spoils a good Everton myth.

The bloke is a millstone around our necks but he did some very good things to keep us alive. He is a scally now of course but some of our fanbase run him close.

My son said that via Social Media after the games each week that Everton fans are the worst of any club in the league. I disagree in that I still feel that we have many, many great fans but we do have a poisonous element. I'm sorry to say that.

Danny O’Neill
64 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:34:39
Okay John, very well positioned post and well made points in terms of where we are right now and I don't mind different views.

But you spoiled it with your last sentence. That's derogatory to thousands of Evertonians.

I don't see scallies. Most weeks I see passionate young Evertonians frustrated at how their club is being run and managed. I stand next to young supporters home and away who have never witnessed a trophy yet show up and give everything. They will be there Saturday and next Wednesday at the Emirates after a long journey. They aren't scallies.

Why shouldn't we have expectation beyond doing a Moyes?

Sorry John, you make a balanced view and you are entitled to it. I agree with you that for this season; we just need to do the immediate necessary. I get that's what is needed in the short term. But if we keep thinking short-term, we'll stay where we are at best.

But beyond that, we are Everton. We can and must do better and plan to compete at the top. Compete. Not win everything all the time. We never have, I get that. But we were generally up there.

Just challenge, bring that 10th title home to Bramley Moore, the 6th FA Cup and win that elusive League Cup. Then we go to Europe.

Okay, getting ahead of myself. Right now, beat Villa, break my Arsenal duck and the world will look a better place.

We need change, but as on Saturday, come match day, it's all about the team and those loyal supporters will be right behind the team.

Martin Mason
65 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:37:15
Petr @58,

The fans maybe who demand massive purchases every window in a competitive market.

We are a small club in comparison with the top now and these buys with our poor revenue mean that wages to turnover is high.

Barry Hesketh
66 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:44:39
Kenwright did whatever he could to maintain his hold on the club, it was true 20 years ago and it's true now – no further analysis is necessary.
Paul Richardson
67 Posted 21/02/2023 at 12:56:04
Getting back to the FAB responses, maybe the wider fanbase, who are being engineered into accepting the FAB as the board's preferred method of personal, two-way communication, should be providing more clarity.

For example, the club says it has quarterly meetings with FAB. How are these recorded? How are the agreed actions monitored? And how does the FAB "challenge the club's most senior representatives in an appropriate manner"?

On the subject of accreditation at Press conferences, why can't the FAB apply for these, or incorporate questions via the various "other" media, like Toffee TV, radio, podcasts, other publications who might be better placed to get that accreditation?

It would be unreasonable to ask the manager, who is employed to run the first team squad (they don't get sacked because the Under-18s finished bottom of their league) to answer non-playing questions the fans are interested in, like finance, sponsorship, organisation, new stadium etc. So why can't the club pioneer another first with a (say) monthly Press conference to deal with those sorts of non-playing questions?

And, to support other contributors on this thread, the club claims its debt "compares very favourably with other clubs in the Premier League." By what measures? And if Everton compares very favourably financially with our peers, why are we not competitive in the transfer market?

Could that lack of competitiveness be linked to the chairman being involved in transfers, as the club states? To what extent is that "involvement"? And is that level of "involvement" usual in the Premier League?... I suspect not.

Mick Davies
68 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:03:45
Martin @ 63,

There is another side to that though and that was that Kenwright did whatever was needed to keep a bankrupt Everton in business

When were Everton bankrupt? Or is that just another of the Kenwright myths you like to spout?

Peter Johnson put a lot of his own money into the club, even building a new stand, which is more than Kenwright ever did, and he was run out of town by the scaremongering of Fathead's propaganda machine.

Yes, a lot of people were fooled by Billy the bully, and his promise of the 'good times' if he was allowed to take over, but it was all smoke and mirrors, as he didn't have two halfpennies to rub together, until Moshiri came along.

Danny O’Neill
69 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:10:31
As an initial suspicious viewer of the FAB, only because I didn't want it to be a token gesture by the club. A tick-in-the-box exercise.

They have a website and have put up the minutes of the latest meeting.

I think it will take time, but it is seeming to shape out.

It will never tell the board to make business or financial decisions. That isn't realistic, not its purpose and we all know that.

It is there to convey the concerns and opinions of supporters that can maybe influence those decisions.

I hate the phrase, but 'work in progress' and early days. Now I've seen communication, I can see this becoming a useful platform.

Martin Mason
70 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:18:41
Barry@66 What is wrong with that and what would you have done in his position. He's a director and he will have a vision of some kind. That will always mean being there to see it through surely.
Peter Neilson
71 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:25:10
Seriously Martin? The supporters are to blame for the clubs disastrous strategy, management and governance? Wish someone had told before that we had this much control of the club. So the logical conclusion to this is we don’t need a board as the supporters run the club?
Pete Clarke
72 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:26:10
Martin. You can't have it every way.

We don't demand massive purchases. We want good players to be signed but, under this leadership, we have signed some absolute no-hopers on top wages with silly long-term contracts.

This is not the fans' fault, for fuck's sake. We didn't sign Lampard either, even though he was the preferred choice of – err let me think now… that's it, 2 people. It's just another bit of evidence that the people in charge are clueless.

For every Lukaku that we have signed and made a profit on, we have signed 10 players in the Bolasie mould that have cost us millions.

As for the fans being the worst, well, that's an insult and obviously he's not spent much time at The Etihad Stadium, Stamford Bridge, Elland Road, The Den, Ashton Gate to name a few grounds where it gets rough.

Ask Danny. He's spent a lot of time in the company of opposing fans due to his opposite travels so he will let you know how we compare.

Danny O’Neill
73 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:38:48
Right, as I am off again, I have time on my hands.

We don't don't demand expensive purchases. I for one have always been an advocate of how you spend, not what you spend.

I don't demand massive purchases, just sensible ones and investment in grass roots on our own doorstep.

I've just watched the footage of the training at Finch Farm. For those who have experienced it, the bleep test is brutal. I've done it many times.

But never had what I saw with them having breaks. Whenever I've done it, you kept going until you couldn't anymore.

It's a great measure of fitness.

Tony Abrahams
74 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:46:12
John @57, Scallies cannot run our club, but dirty, deceitful, lying, self-serving, romantic, egotistical frauds can?

It reminds me of the Minder episode when Arther Daley decided to go straight but, by the end of the program, he couldn't wait to get back into the villain world because he'd never met so many dishonest people in his life in the supposedly honest world.

I was always taught that a thief is better than a liar and I agree because a liar must have seen many innocent people hung, but not when you put them both together and come out with a closet Liverpudlian who tried to hang genuine Evertonians.

Bill Kenwright has lied to us and he's stolen from us, and he's just getting told in no uncertain terms that he is not welcome inside our stadium anymore.

Kieran Kinsella
75 Posted 21/02/2023 at 13:49:54
The Scally comment presumably relates to those four non-violent children who asked Gordon “What the fuck?” about 15 times. They very well could have been paid actors hired by Bill to engineer Gordon's sale.
Martin Mason
76 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:01:34
Tony, could you please provide proof that Kenwright has stolen money from Everton. Thank you.
Tony Abrahams
77 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:03:21
Martin, stop and think, because your question isn't logical, unless you are trying to defend the indefensible, mate.

"We have had some good times" is probably the most often repeated phrase written on these pages for a reason. If William would have replaced “We have” with “I've”, then he might have been telling the truth, but he never, and his reference to us was really only a reference for himself.

He's lived the dream and made a fortune but, in doing so, his selfish mismanagement whilst hanging on for dear life has done nothing positive whatsoever for the club – and he's always traded on his love for Everton Football Club. At best, he is a lying fraud.

Martin Mason
78 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:07:27
Pete @72,

All Premier League clubs have supporters who are totally unrealistic but I agree with my son that there can be few worse than a minority of our fans many who post here.

Tony Abrahams
79 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:08:02
No Martin. But we owned a training ground, and sold it, then we got the land for another training ground, and instead of building it ourselves, we decided to get someone else to do it and chose to pay extortionate rates instead.

So from owning Bellefield, we have decided to sell and rent back at over £80 million, over the terms of the tenancy agreement instead. You don't have to dip your hands in the till to rob people, Martin, only the scallies do this mate. The clever people rob from Peter to pay Paul with no theft involved whatsoever.

Martin, my post @77 was in reference to why you were questioning Barry @66, mate.

Dave Abrahams
80 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:12:59
Kenwright and his clique have taken us supporters for granted for far too long, they don't even think we exist.

They must be amazed we have woken up and started asking questions and letting them know we are the biggest asset the club has got and always will be. Everton FC are nothing without us fans; like every other football club, how would they operate without customers?

Reminds of the fella who went to see his doctor and the doctor said “Hello, Jim, I haven't seen you for a few months”. Jim said, “I know doc I haven't been very well.”

Pete Clarke
82 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:28:58
Is he talking about fans who go the game or fans who post?

Makes no difference really but we can all make off-the-cuff comments like your son. Actually believing it is another thing.

I spent time in Brazil mate where even armed coppers would not get involved with the home support of Corinthians or São Paolo. Argentinian football is possibly worse. We are very very tame in comparison.

Anyway, how are Evertonians being unrealistic? The only thing I think we are is pissed off and frustrated that the club is in a mess with relegation being a very very real threat and this comes after spending, or wasting should I say, hundreds of millions of pounds on football players and managers only to become worse.

We are walking the tightrope of relegation and P&S Rules with a team full of losers and yet some people want to argue the corner of the man responsible.

Was it Zelensky's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine? I'm sure there are some posters on here who may try to defend Putin.

John Burns
83 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:30:38
I hate corporate speak. I hate political speak. I just want us to be champions of Europe. Tell us plainly the strategy for that.
Tom Hughes
84 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:36:53

Everton were prime movers in the formation of the Premier League and were firmly Top 4 or 5 in terms of income, assets and stadium when Kenwright joined the board.

We were never considered "small" in our entire history. If we are now, it has been because of decisions made by our board ever since.

He has been instrumental in that decline, as he is the only common denominator for that whole time frame. He schemed and essentially carpet-bagged our club to gain, then keep control of it. Moyes papered over his financial failings for a decade. After which our club was a hollowed-out shell of its former self.

By the time he had to sell to Moshiri, we had fallen to about 11th or 12th in terms of income, having sold most property assets built up over generations and in comfortably the least redeveloped stadium in the Premier League. With mounting debt.

The first chairman to cancel AGMs because they had long descended into farce, after the increasingly exposed lies were backed up to the wall. The list is almost endless All during his tenure.

He turned us into a nothing club that even a massive injection by Moshiri has failed to revitalise, and his continued mismanagement has made our predicament even more perilous.

Kieran Kinsella
85 Posted 21/02/2023 at 14:39:04
Martin @78,

"there can be few worse than a minority of our fans, many who post here."

See that's why you get banned, Martin, as you make ridiculous comments about fellow fans which is against the rules but more importantly a ludicrous statement to make.

Tom Hughes
88 Posted 21/02/2023 at 15:05:23
Martin #76,

Proof: he turned a major club into a "small" (in your own words) club and made a fortune in the process, while stripping every asset and adding zero value.

His personal wealth never covered the value of his shareholding when he took over, and again when he ousted the Greggs with the help of that epitome of high moral fibre... Philip Green, by way of various loans. With the club enduring years of zero net spends as a result and unexplained other operating costs. All while football was awash with money and other clubs were moving ahead of us on every front.

He robbed the club of 20 years of increased matchday income at Kings Dock and perhaps our whole future, by engineering the failure of that project, just to stay in control he then nearly succeeded in relocating us to a shed in Kirkby at the behest of his retail-led pals.

We now have to take on a massive debt for something we could have had a generation ago – not to mention what other investment that might've attracted afterwards.

It's endless, and your continued defence has no substance whatsoever.

Len Hawkins
89 Posted 21/02/2023 at 15:08:45
I think the financial acumen of this board has been very visible for all to see: crap players on long lucrative contracts.

But I think our search for a decent left back since Baines hung his boots up shows an unbelievable lack of any financial sense. Antonee Robinson went to Wigan for peanuts, then they sell him; now it is stated Fulham want £35M for him.

Any decent club would know the value of their youngsters but Everton wouldn't know a good 'un if he came and pissed all over them. I suppose Branthwaite will be virtually gifted to Eindhoven and after turning out to be decent he will earn them £millions but we will carry on with the likes of Niasse, Schneiderlin, Tosun of the footballing world – highly priced, highly paid, highly useless players.

Dale Self
90 Posted 21/02/2023 at 15:34:38
What John Burns said. The banter is a good read though. See? We are getting back to normal. Martin is wrong.
Kevin Molloy
91 Posted 21/02/2023 at 15:43:16

In the case of Robinson, we were almost literally packing his bags for him. 'You're better off somewhere else' being the advice apparently. This is like 2 years ago, when he'd already made a decent impression. Shocking stuff.

Rob Halligan
92 Posted 21/02/2023 at 15:59:14
Martin #63.

In what way are Everton fans the worst of any club in the league after each game? It's probably about seven or eight years since I missed a game, home, away or in Europe, and as far as I can recall, I've never seen any trouble which is a direct result of Everton fans.

Of course, at certain away games, notably at Newcastle, we have been intimidated by home fans upon leaving the stadium, which can sometimes lead to trouble.

I've never seen any trouble, or bother of any kind in pubs we visit on our travels, often made to feel welcome by home fans, before and after an away game.

Finally, where I sit at home games, the Upper Gwladys Street, means I very rarely come into contact with visiting supporters to Goodison, but I've never heard of any trouble before or after our home games.

So Martin, I'm really intrigued as to why your son thinks we are the worst fans in the league?

Brian Harrison
97 Posted 21/02/2023 at 16:19:58
I see that the Echo are saying that the board have said the cost of the new stadium is still the original £500 million that was agreed with Laing O'Rourke 18 months ago.

The Echo quoted the figure that Moshiri said the cost of the stadium was £760 million, apparently that included the work done in preparation of the new stadium and work around the ground when the stadium is built.

Jay Harris
99 Posted 21/02/2023 at 16:38:05

Just to correct you, Peter Johnson, for all the criticism levelled at him, left the club with a net asset position on the balance sheet and made a profit most years of his stewardship.

Within 2 years of Kenwright taking over the club, we were loss-making and he had turned an asset-rich club into a net-liability club despite the money coming in from player sales.

All of that occurred before Rooney was sold and other unexplained operating costs jumped from £1M a year to over £20M a year after Dunford was dispensed with. Very coincidental that Kenwright had to borrow £20M to buy Johnson out…

Don Alexander
101 Posted 21/02/2023 at 16:52:38
I've no time for posters who denigrate fellow Toffees – ever, especially on the specious board-promulgated premise they use to try to justify themselves.

The article and the very existence of "our" (as if!) FAB is yet another example of those in charge of the club marking their own homework. I've nothing against those on the FAB, by the way, just the way they're being used.

And that's the squalid truth.

Sean Roe
102 Posted 21/02/2023 at 16:56:18
I'm just going to crack on with supporting the team on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon.

My tiny brain knows only that like every politician that ever lived, every single word that comes out of their vile mouths will be a complete lie.

James Hughes
103 Posted 21/02/2023 at 17:04:59
Donald #102… ermmm:

"I've no time for posters who denigrate fellow Toffees – ever"

You have a bit of history there yourself, mate.

Kieran Kinsella
104 Posted 21/02/2023 at 17:05:22

I think their intentions regarding FAB are backfiring because FAB produced much more cutting questions than they probably expected and it makes their responses look ridiculous. For example: "Why won't the chairman relinquish control?" Answer: "He is not the major shareholder."

What a stupid smart ass sort of response. Everyone knows he is not the major shareholder but as Chairman he is in control of much as we frequently see any time we buy or sell a player. But this kind of contemptuous response is there for all the world to see now.

It would have been better for them never to create FAB because all they've done is given greater exposure to their incompetence and lies.

Will Mabon
105 Posted 21/02/2023 at 17:12:06
Brian @ 97,

Therefore the total cost of the stadium project is currently running at £760 million. It was never going to be the £505 million quoted from the outset IMO. It will be more by completion too if built unchanged.

Karl Masters
106 Posted 21/02/2023 at 17:48:55
Whilst dealing in facts and not emotion-driven wild opinion, perhaps we should look at the latest 5-year net transfer spend. Not 20 years as somebody quoted earlier, but the more recent past.

You will find Everton in 15th place with two profits made in the last 2 years. Whilst this has clearly led to poor performances and results after the crazy splurge of Summer 2017, it does also show a Club and Board trying to get its house in order, as far as I can see.

Some of the other clubs' net spends are eye-watering, but interestingly the two best teams in that era, Man City and Liverpool, are well down the list too.

1) Chelsea: £-654.21m
22-23: £-480.38m
21-22: £5.79m (3rd)
20-21: £-166.86m (4th)
19-20: £98.57m (4th)
18-19: £-110.23m (3rd)

2) Manchester Utd: £-540.23m
22-23: £-203.26m
21-22: £-99.5m (6th)
20-21: £-56.45m (2nd)
19-20: £-134.87m (3rd)
18-19: £-45.8m (6th)

3) Arsenal: £-485.64m
22-23: £-148.94m
21-22: £-120m (5th)
20-21: £-59m (8th)
19-20: £-94.58m (8th)
18-19: £-62.71m (5th)

4) West Ham Utd: £-356.5m
22-23: £-152.21m
21-22: £-62.02m (7th)
20-21: £-8.2m (6th)
19-20: £-56.77m (16th)
18-19: £-76.91m (10th)

5) Newcastle Utd: £-351.89m
22/23: £-161.74m
21/22: £-115.19m (11th)
20/21: £-34.18m (12th)
19/20: £-32.89m (13th)
18/19: £-7.68m (13th)

6) Tottenham Hotspur: £-332.48m
22-23: £-122.95m
21-22: £-54.09m (4th)
20-21: £-85.79m (7th)
19-20: £-74.14m (6th)
18-19: £4.72m (4th)

7) Wolverhmpton Wanderers: £-276.55m
22-23: £-103.15m
21-22: £-5.09m (10th)
20-21: £-7.37m (13th)
19-20: £-81.3m (7th)
18-19: £-78.53m (7th)

8) Aston Villa: £-271.24m
22-23: £-40.73m
21-22: £-2.47m (14th)
20-21: £-87.01m (11th)
19-20: £-138.13m (17th)
18-19: £-2.6m (5th in Championship)

9) Liverpool: £-254.19m
22/23: £-49.7m
21-22: £-50.44m (2nd)
20-21: £-58.7m (3rd)
19-20: £29.94m (Champions)
18-19: £-123.7m (3rd)

10) Manchester City: £-224.97m
22-23: £8.3m
21-22: £-39.81m (Champions)
20-21: £-96.56m (Champions)
19-20: £-78.13m (2nd)
18-19: £-18.54m (Champions)

11) Fulham: £-197m
22-23: £-43.83m
21-22: £-14.56m (1st in Championship)
20-21: £-32.88m (18th)
19-20: £-7.5m (4th in Championship)
18-19: £-98.11m (19th)

12) Southampton: £-178.7m
22-23: £-122.07m
21-22: £15.23m (15th)
20-21: £-9.71m (15th)
19-20: £-30.19m (11th)
18-19: £-31.91m (16th)

13) Leeds Utd: £-170.3m
21-22: £-51.71m (17th)
20-21: £-112.21m (9th)
19-20: £26.44m (1st in Championship)
18-19: £-3.6m (3rd in Championship)

14) Nottingham Forest: £168.71m
22-23: £-156.6m
21-22: £-5.37m (4th in Championship)
20-21: £535k (17th in Championship)
19-20: £8.56m (7th in Championship)
18-19: £-15.74m (9th in Championship)

15) Everton: £-124.94m
22-23: £22.27m
21-22: £5.74m (16th)
20-21: £-60.86m (10th)
19-20: £-29.3m (12th)
18-19: £-62.8m (8th)

16) Crystal Palace: £-82.08m
22-23: £-36.36m
21-22: £-75.57m (12th)
20-21: £-2.12m (14th)
19-20: £42.17m (14th)
18-19: £-10.15m (12th)

17) Leicester City: £-62.23m
22-23: £29.51m
21-22: £-56.14m (8th)
20-21: £-4.97m (5th)
19-20: £-13.95m (5th)
18-19: £-16.59m (9th)

18) Bournemouth: £-59.18m
22-23: £-73.43m
21-22: £12.59m (2nd in Championship)
20-21: £82.57m (6th in Championship)
19-20: £-17.91m (18th)
18-19: £-63.02m (14th)

Brian Wilkinson
107 Posted 21/02/2023 at 17:49:43
The board have stayed away from the last two home games, we won both.

Keep them away and we might just lift the curse that descended over Goodison for the last quarter of a century.

Tom@3 spot on.

Surely post 1 is either a wind-up, or Bill's secretary. Never have I read as much shite as that first post.

Just remember – Everton put that headlock statement out just before a very important home game was due to be played.

That is how low they stooped, to take the focus of attention, of the protests, away from them, and put the blame on the fans.

Sorry, Eds and fellow Evertonians.

Karl Masters
108 Posted 21/02/2023 at 18:00:17
By the way, I'm no fan of Kenwright, Denise, Kirkby, selling Rooney etc, etc. Far from it.

I have given up ToffeeWeb for many months now, finding the negativity of the ‘gnarly old git' typical poster pretty depressing to be honest.

I just felt compelled to write that I just don't like the intimidating way the protesters are going about their business and I and many other fans resent being ‘represented' in this way. Just who do some of these people think they are?

Really? You speak for some of the fanbase, not all of it or even anything like the majority.

Moshiri, yes he's naive in some ways, but he's still putting in nearly £700m and rising and getting that stadium built. The Team need a unified support but some have taken it upon themselves to speak for us all.

But Newsflash, fellas — you don't!

Bill Fairfield
109 Posted 21/02/2023 at 18:34:09
Fact. This football club has been poorly run under the current chairman for many years.

He's overseen the selling of very good players, and replaced them with very bad players. The club is the laughing stock of the whole of the Premier League under this guy.

Kenwright Out!

Joe Corgan
110 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:00:30
You know, that is a very long document. A lot of questions and a lot of answers. Lots of words. Meaningless words. When it comes down to it, here is what I realised…

The club have spent hundreds and hundreds of millions over the last seven years. More money than we've ever had in our history. Yet here we are, facing possible relegation for what would be only the third time in our history.

Where the money came from really doesn't matter. It's been utterly wasted. In any other company, in any other industry, somebody would be held accountable for that failure. No CEO or Chairman would survive in the real world.

If they wish to lay blame at the feet of multiple managers and directors of football, then the people who appoint those positions are therefore also liable.

Why is this club so reluctant to do what any other company would do under similar circumstances? That, to me, is the only question that matters.

Jerome Shields
111 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:12:56
Kieran #104,

That is a very good point. The FAB are actually in control, both in relation to the MoshirI interview and in regard to the fan questions. But the Board really believe they are in control.

In any engagement between two parties, it is the ability to monopolize the listening, not the ability to monopolize the talking, that is the most powerful. The FAB have monopolized the listening and the Board have monopolized the talking, exposing themselves in the process. They still have not copped on what FAB is at.

Actually, I have been very impressed with the way that the FAB have handled themselves, after initially being wholly dismissive. I have to at this stage acknowledge that your initiative to join the FAB meetings and your reasons on being queried by others including myself, did make me have a closer look.

Mark Taylor
112 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:13:40

I gave you the last 10 years, not 20, so that was an exaggeration. Most of that decade overlaps with Moshiri's ownership so it is reasonable, especially given the unusual circumstances of the last 2-3 years. Otherwise you will get the anomalies you mention.

As you then go on to say, a lot of money was spent in that period and who, if not the board, are accountable for the appalling outcome? That is why many people want to be rid of them.

I don't know if that is the view of a majority of supporters but then nor do you. So I'm not quite sure how you can claim to know what the majority opinion is on this.

Christine Foster
113 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:31:15
Karl #108,

I resent being called a "gnarly old git" but I agree with you that there are some fans who may find it uncomfortable to see any protests. But we don't live in a fair and just world, where people are honest and never use others to get what they want, or lie, cheat or condemn others to deflect their own misdeeds. Where people believe their own truth and deny facts that don't fit their narrative.

As a fanbase, we are amongst the best in the world. We are human, the good the bad and the ugly, we have a fair share of critical and negative supporters, but we are many and the good far out weight the negativity you speak of.

We are, in the main proud, passionate and accepting to the point of complacency until we are lied to, cheated, unjustly blackened by those who claim to act in the clubs best interests. Which is where we are today.

The roads to complain have been closed to shareholders, no longer able to ask questions in public, the mealy-mouthed corporate responses to the FAB questions are nothing more than a sham and the PR stunt to show fan engagement. The FAB members should resign in protest.

Those touted groups, the Fans Forum and Shareholders Association have seen resignations and a petition condemning the board with over 15,000 signatures. Did someone forget to tell the authors of the club's responses that?

So Karl, if, as you speculate, people like me are just "gnarly old gits" it's because we have come to understand that nice people get trodden on, nice people get nothing. But eventually, nice people say "Enough" — and there are hundreds of thousands of good people saying "Enough".

Will Mabon
114 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:44:15
Karl @ 106:

I can appreciate the work you've done in collating those figures, and thanks for that. Certainly a surprise or two there.

As ever all sorts of metrics and angles can be applied to re-express various elements for different reasons.

In plain terms of manifest performance, I can't think of another club in the time period that had access to a spendable golden egg of half a billion, to take itself from where it was to where it is now on the pitch.

This is the inescapable truth behind the dissatisfaction.

Danny O’Neill
115 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:46:16

How anyone who follows our club can point the finger of blame at the most loyal support base I know is unfathomable to me.

Whether that is in the ground as I will be on Saturday and next Wednesday evening at Arsenal or people like you who get up at some godless hour to follow the club we love dearly from the other side of the globe. Unbelievable supporters.

We are respected wherever we may go.

It is just beyond me and shameful how they can can try to turn on the supporters. It makes me angry the more I think of it and they have driven an even bigger wedge.

We are always there. We always will be. We will be on Saturday.

Tom Hughes
116 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:50:14
No protester has claimed to speak for us all at all. but judging by every Everton forum including this thread, I cannot see how you can possibly claim to speak about being in the majority against the protest. Far from it!

I understand that some people are far too passive for any kind of protest but I don't see any level of support for Kenwright on any of these platforms whatsoever.

Brian Williams
117 Posted 21/02/2023 at 19:55:03
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Okay, "evil" may be a stretch but the sentiment is the same.

Some people are happy to leave everything that needs to be done to others.

And when others do things to try and change things for the better, they merely tut-tut and point the finger of blame.

But they'll happily take any improvements or gains made by those who have gone out of their way and done something.

No time for them. Not worth wasting energy on.

Kieran Kinsella
118 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:02:46

Certainly based on forums, Twitter, marches, protests – it appears the majority of fans support the protests but it's possible I suppose that Karl is right and there is a silent majority that do not approve?

He said himself he hadn't posted for months due "negativity" so maybe there are large numbers of others who feel the same way for one reason or another? I think it's unlikely but technically possible?

With that having been said, even if someone objects to protests, I don't see anything about the nature of the protests that is objectionable. Peaceful marches, peaceful sit-ins, unconditional support during the match.

It's not like NSNOW are Robespierre and Co after the French Revolution.

Mark Ryan
119 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:08:02
So here is my position on the protests.

I feel slightly sorry for Moshiri when I see a banner saying
"MOSHIRI OUT". My sense is, he's tried really hard to throw money at the "project" but has trusted his faith in a shit board, Kenwright mainly.

He's given us a realistic chance of moving from Goodison Park which was overdue 20 years ago and I thank him for that, I really do. I'd prefer to see a banner that says something akin to:

"Moshiri, get rid of the people who have wasted £500 million on crap managers and crap players and get people around you who know how to run a football club"

This is why I don't do banners but that's what I'd prefer to see or...

"Moshiri, get rid of the current board"

I'd feel happier to see that.

Andy Crooks
120 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:24:20
Good post, Brian W. It really is easy to let others do the work.
Hope all is well with you, mate. Maybe see you before end of season.
Brendan McLaughlin
121 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:27:34
Mark #119

"Moshiri, get rid of the people who have wasted £500 million on crap managers and crap players "

Surely Moshiri has himself been largely responsible for the poor managerial appointments who in turn have squandered the £500 million on crap players.

Christy Ring
122 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:33:29
Kieran, good point. Some fans down the years, probably seldom saw Everton fans protest, but for a board to put out a statement before the Southampton game, coincidently the day of the protest, of death threats and the rest, which was read on all the networks and the police thankfully told us a week later, they knew nothing about it!

It was an insult to EFC fans who, down through the years, have been a credit and praised all over Europe. In '85 in Rotterdam, the fans even played football with the Dutch police. The same year where our neighbours disgraced the whole of England, and they are still the most hated fans in Europe.

The board should be held accountable for the lies and trying to drag our fans into the gutter.

Mike Connolly
123 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:41:45
Well said Christy 122
Mike Gaynes
124 Posted 21/02/2023 at 20:49:23
Karl #106, respects, sir. You posted an unpopular opinion and you've taken a hell of a pounding from the congregation as a result.

And you've stood your ground without losing either your poise or your temper. That ain't easy.

As to the remarkably detailed numbers you posted (and well in on that as well), I long ago reached the conclusion that football clubs in general are absolutely awful at buying and selling players for value. There are maybe two clubs in each country that do it consistently well enough to achieve both business and competitive success -- Porto and Benfica, Ajax and PSV, Leicester and Brentford, Lille, Dortmund, Salzburg. But most of the rest of us just suck at it.

You've made clear what I've always felt -- that as poor as Everton may be in this area, we're no worse than most other clubs. I read years of complaints here about how we overpaid for Richarlison. Now you can find those same comments on the Spurs sites.

Dave Abrahams
125 Posted 21/02/2023 at 21:11:59
Brian (117) Very good honest post Brian full of truth.
Karl Masters
126 Posted 21/02/2023 at 21:22:20
The same conclusion for me, Mike.

Only a few teams triumph every season, and yes Everton are overdue a cup or something now, but let's face facts – we are in a comparatively economically poor city with many social problems in a part of England that does not immediately appeal to global superstar players in the way London does (I love Liverpool, by the way, but can well understand it's not for everyone ).

We have only been successful in a handful of seasons in the last 50 years, but because we were once the biggest club in the country – in a time of black-and-white telly and ending about the time of the lunar landings – some of our fans think we should still be the biggest and best even though we are now in an era of American multi-billionaires and Arab state owners pumping in crazy money. And when pay-per-view supersedes Sky and BT etc by the 2030s, it will be even harder to compete at the top. The Premier League is a runaway monster threatening to chew us up.

Against this, I'd take the view that to have stayed in it has been quite an achievement with the low income streams we have.

We have punched above our weight. We have done charity work that every Evertonian should be truly proud of. We are relevant to many people. Look at this link to a film from an Ethiopian school this week and tell me your heart doesn't swell…


But the "keep away and never return" antics against Moshiri and the Board – that's not Everton. We are better than that. Just my opinion and not just mine. I respect your opinions, but I don't agree with all of it and I'm just stating that.

Robert Tressell
127 Posted 21/02/2023 at 21:34:27
Karl, the net spend figures are interesting but I'm not sure what your point is.

For me, they highlight how seriously things were going until Moshiri and financial rules stopped us spending after Ancelotti left. Our net spend figures look healthy-ish because we've been so frugal for the past couple of years – to the point where, to ease relegation fears, we couldn't even compete with Bournemouth for Ouattara and Jackson or with Saints for Sulemana and Onuachu. This was after getting in £45m for Gordon.

The board is perhaps trying to get its house in order (perhaps having been required to by the Premier League) or has maybe decided to chance it without throwing good money after bad. And let's be honest it has been bad.

The net spend figures also indicate some sustained success by Leicester, Brighton, Brentford and the RS. They have all operated very clear development strategies and lived within their means. Others like Villa have been less strategic and 'did an Everton' buying Digne, Coutinho and Diego Carlos as deteriorating assets. They'll regret that. West Ham have done similar.

What is pleasing in a schadenfreude-type way is that the net spend figures reveal the RS have massively over performed their level of investment. That's in part down to good coaching from Klopp but it's luck too. They are already struggling post Mane (Diaz, Jota and others just aren't in his class) and Salah, Van Dijk and others are now on the wane or coming to the end of their contracts. It's unlikely they'll rebuild such a good side at such good value again.

Karl Masters
128 Posted 21/02/2023 at 21:42:27
It’s that time indeed Robert. 5 past Allison.
Karl Masters
129 Posted 21/02/2023 at 21:52:47
And on the subject of why we didn’t get any players in late January despite having the Gordon money, do you think any were put off by the ‘toxic fans’ media headlines after the Gordon and Mina incidents after the Southampton match?

And that’s my point. I’m not defending the poor way the Club has been run. It’s been random at best, but the message:

“If you choose to attend, you will be met with a post-match protest held outside the director's car park following the game. We will make you aware once again that you are not welcome now, and you never will be again.”

is way too threatening to a man who has pumped in £700m, and a Board that needs guidance for sure, but as Evertonians should not be intimidated into avoiding going the match. In my opinion.

Christy Ring
130 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:00:45
Delighted to see Liverpool are back! Mod
Christy Ring
131 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:02:47
Modric at 37 still pure class, nice smile from Ancelotti!

Allan Corken
132 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:03:32
Karl@ lots of places- Well said! I often fear that some commentators on here will suffer a splenetic fit of paroxsyms as they compete to outdo each other in vitriol. I am reassured however, that they are in a minority and am reminded of a quote by Edmund Burke "Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.”
Soren Moyer
133 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:07:32
Intimidated by fans!!!!!? Where's the proof of that?
Tony Hill
134 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:11:02
If we are swimming in a sea of co-mediocrities and almost certain to remain so, drawing solace from our charitable works and the odd Moyesian surge to 7th, then it’s a bit of a bleak outlook. As it is for the vast majority of clubs.

I don’t disagree with that view, but I’m not at all sure that the pending magnificence of Bramley Moore is going to sustain us, despite what’s happening on the pitch.

I’ve thought for a long while that top level football is devouring itself and is certainly devouring the likes of our club. Time to follow Marine.

Jay Harris
135 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:12:44
I am certainly an old git but I pride myself as following Everton for over 65 years having played at a decent level and having served on the boards of a number of FTSE 100 companies and I can honestly say you are talking absolute drivel.

Moshiri isn't staying away because of fans protest, the guy only attends 1 or 2 matches per season for tax reasons and his last attendance was way before any protests.

I can also honestly claim that you are in the minority and the vast majority are fed up with the performance and lies emanating from this board.

Karl Masters
136 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:14:08
Soren - “ we will make you aware that you are not welcome now and never will be again “

Basically translates as fuck off and don’t come back or else. Intimidating.

Danny O’Neill
137 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:19:38
Karl, I respect you for holding your ground and opinion.

But the club has tried to hang the fans out to dry.

I guess all of these strikers and protesters around the country at the moment must be aggressive for having a voice and demanding change?

Karl Masters
138 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:20:11
Fans are all fed up with the performances Jay, and lies emanate freely from BK and always have ( Kirkby being the biggest example) BUT still not justification to take on the mantle of the Voice of All fans and issuing threatening ultimatums.
Karl Masters
139 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:24:20
Nurses and Firefighters etc have voted for Strike action Danny. I don’t recall seeing a ballot paper asking me if we want a new Owner, Board of Directors and that they can be told to fuck off and never come back - especially with no realistic alternative being on the table
Christy Ring
140 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:26:28
Karl, a board that need guidance? Since when does Kenwright listen to the fans. Karl we sold Gordon on the Thursday, Dyche signed on the Monday, a day before the window closed, not a thing to do with Toxic fans as you call it. Trying to bring in players in the last 24 hours was total mismanagement by the board.
Christy Ring
141 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:38:55
The last goal by Benzema should have been disallowed, it was the French police's fault.
Brian Williams
142 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:39:32
I'm doing well mate thanks. Hope I see you soon mate. Too long.
Cheers Dave. 👍
Eric Myles
143 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:45:21
Brian #97, it took the Echo how long to figure that out?
Robert Tressell
144 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:45:55
Karl, I echo the comments of other posters that you've handled all the grief you're getting with very good humour.

And yes, the decline of the RS hopefully starts here.

However, I really don't believe the behaviour of a few fans had any bearing at all on our lack of transfer activity at the end of the window.

If we had the money to buy Ouattara or Jackson and pay the wages too, they'd be at Goodison right now.

Dennis Stevens
145 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:49:33
Karl, you have a remarkable ability to sustain a plethora of straw man arguments in defence of those who you are, apparently, not here to defend.
Danny O’Neill
146 Posted 21/02/2023 at 22:51:14
I didn't have a vote in my previous career Karl. I didn't have the option to not show or strike, regardless as to whether I agreed with where I was going, what I was doing or how much I was getting paid. It's good that those public sector workers have that right and I wish them all the best in getting what is good for them and their families. Genuinely.

The supporters do have a voice and are expressing it in the only way they can as they don't have a vote I personally haven't witnessed any aggression or violence in the actions the vast majority have taken.

Probably like you, I've been going to watch Everton and football since I can remember, which for me was about 1976. The passion and overspilling of emotion is part of the game and football supporters. It's no different than at most clubs and we here comments aimed at boards, players and managers every week.

Kendall must go leaflets and protests. The toxic atmosphere around Benitez last season, culminating in a very hostile atmosphere at Norwich away; I don't recall any outburst or outrage about that. We voiced our opinion just as the supporters are doing now through absolute frustration. We are just aiming it at a different level and they don't like it because for too long, the managers have been the fall guys that preserve their positions.

You're making your point and standing for it well Karl. That's fine.

But so are an increasing amount of supporters. And for the way the club has accused them without evidence is shameful.

No one is going to attack anyone. It's not our thing.

I know many hope they never show face again. I think they should. But if they don't, its time to go and do the honourable thing.

Darren Hind
147 Posted 22/02/2023 at 00:21:06
James 103

Your the third person to say that today alone.

The guy has no mirrors in his house

Steve Brown
148 Posted 22/02/2023 at 00:59:32
Karl, I actually think Moshiri would be welcomed at the home games. Provided he doesn’t mind listening to a few chants about his board. But, he hasn’t turned up at Goodison for a couple of years so I don’t think we can expect to see him soon.

The claim that the board is not attending the home games because the nasty fans might shout at them is risible. They are not attending the games as they tried to demonise the fans at the Soton game in a pathetic attempt to strangle the protests at birth. It backfired spectacularly when the Merseyside Police refused to substantiate their claims of intimidation Now they are stuck.

The national media have sussed them out. The majority of fans did so long ago.

Martin Mason
149 Posted 22/02/2023 at 01:36:03
Some great ones here for my Everton book of myths and half truths.
Don Alexander
150 Posted 22/02/2023 at 02:41:08
James Hughes (#103), the only fellow Toffee I've ever, repeat, ever, denigrated is Darren Hind, for the reason I'll always stand by - namely we Toffees should never denigrate each other on account of a difference of opinion, as is his constant wont.

That denigration does not extend to his views on football and our club though, as I've said for years. He and I regularly share the same opinion on football and the club and I'm grown-up enough to have said so on TW for years.

My TW history, available to anyone who wants to seek it out, attests to it 100%.

His TW history on the other hand categorically shows that what I criticise him for has been stated loud and very clear by way more than a few fellow Toffees who also take strong exception to his personal venality, and say so.

You are either of his ilk or too lazy to check the unarguable history of his and my inputs.

Whatever, all the best.

Jay Harris
151 Posted 22/02/2023 at 02:53:28
"BUT still not justification to take on the mantle of the Voice of All fans and issuing threatening ultimatums."

I am not aware of anyone taking on the mantle of all fans and issuing threatening ultimatums.

If you are talking about the club statement. That was proven to be a Kenwright smoke and mirrors job getting the stewards to issue a statement to the effect the board were not safe at games which many posters have already said was investigated by the police and the media and no evidence was found.

Don Alexander
152 Posted 22/02/2023 at 03:33:05
Karl (#throughout) I just cannot agree with your central premise.

As a fanbase we have been hopeless at holding anyone to account for our perpetual demise throughout the 21st century.

Kenwright's got very wealthy as a result, whilst the club's financial and reputational wherewithal has plumbed the very depths, despite the bizarre funding antics of Moshiri and whomever.

But, at last, in early 2023, there is now a blossom of vociferous but civilised protest being mounted against the incompetents owning and directing us.

Long may it continue whilst such incompetents are in office.

Kieran Kinsella
153 Posted 22/02/2023 at 03:49:28

I look forward to your book. What’s it called? Peace in our time Martin Mason’s White Paper?


Mate. I hate to be pedantic but technically in the eyes of some (Richard Dodd, David Prentice,, possibly our cantankerous “friend” who flip flops on every issue) you’ve denigrated two Toffees with the other being Blue Bill the greatest Although I as someone who along with you and probably Tony Marsh and Colin Glassar am a founding member of the Bill is an RS and charlatan support group, I’ll accept your observation that you’ve only denigrated one. I think Tony Abrahams has earned his stripes too so I suppose there are five of us old Corinthians.

Christine Foster
154 Posted 22/02/2023 at 04:25:11

I've never ever said Bill is of the red variety but certainly a charlatan so I doubt I would qualify in any other fashion than old...

I’m afraid my crusade only on TW started with Kirkby… hang on, actually it was Kings Dock… wait, it was Samuelson, wait it was Boys Pen... dear god its nearly half my life!!

Martin Mason
155 Posted 22/02/2023 at 04:28:25
Kieran, ha! I may just make it a joke book.

No, seriously, I may do a seriously researched reference book called "The great things that Bill Kenwright has done for Everton."

I have a draft in front of me, it's only one page and it's blank. The cover will look great though with Bill's gurning ugly face beaming out at us. I'll take advanced orders…

Kieran Kinsella
156 Posted 22/02/2023 at 04:45:52

Now that you mention age. I was a teenager when I first disliked Bill (his bid versus Johnsons) now I’m 46! What a life of misery and disappointment I’ve led.

Christine Foster
159 Posted 22/02/2023 at 08:17:47
Darren, whether or not Kenwright leaves gracefully or gracelessly is immaterial. His day is over, it really is. There is no continuation for him now, he has tainted Sharpie (a guy who knows which side his bread is buttered on)

Denise will sink with Bill and the culture within Everton Football Club will forever be improved. I remember reading about the toxic culture in the Liver Building a year or two ago, how there was a clique… a nasty one. Who knows the truth but it left a telling mark in my memory.

As I said, there is no need to chase the Directors out of a car park, they are already finished, they just don't know it yet. There is no way back for Bill and Denise. Job done. No tears from me.

Danny O’Neill
160 Posted 22/02/2023 at 08:47:46
Christine, even for someone like me who gradually became frustrated with both Kenwright and Moyes, maybe later than others, rather than from the onset, the board has stepped over the line of departure and gone too far. I'm well documented on my views that have shifted over the years.

Red line and they've crossed it.

Alienating the biggest asset this club has is ridiculous behaviour. It's amateur. It's poor judgement. It's offensive. I could go on if I could think of more words!

There is no going back from this. How dare they tell me I'm a threat when I regularly sleep on a train back to Euston and get home at midnight after each home game after leaving the house early in the morning for the matches I am fortunate and privileged to attend?

Okay, that's personal and a bit over the top, but the sentiment is relevant; it really has touched a nerve.

Wake up, Mr Moshiri, and do the right thing. I don't expect that to be tomorrow or next week. Right now, I just want points from the next two matches.

But either once we're safe or in the summer, just look at the obvious elephant in the room and do something about it.

Keep the community side going, it's genuinely admirable and I see they've got their own brand now.

But once we get out of this mess, get people in who can actually run a football club.

Half way to Saturday. If they don't show up at Goodison, I don't expect to see them show at The Emirates. Although I can guess the likelihood.

All about the team and the manager right now.

Darren Hind
161 Posted 22/02/2023 at 09:29:52

You are being a tad modest. You go back a long way with your crticism of Kenwright. Much further back than those who now claim they were onto him from the outset.

I guess It doesnt really matter when people wised up to this duplicitous con artist. The real issue is that a truly overwhelming majority are wise to him now.

Your gut instinct has served you well in the past and it continues to do so. I think you are on the money again when you say we are witnessing the death throes of this board. The straight jacket they have bound themselves by is too tight even for Kenwrights slippery Houdini instincts.

I don't care about DBB, but I am genuinely upset about the way it will end for Sharpy. Alas. He made his bed a long time ago and has steadfastly insisted on lying in it. His decision. His loss.

Unfortunately I don't see this situation coming to a head in the near future.

I would be surprised if any of them jump Not when it will be so much more lucrative to be pushed.

Brian Williams
162 Posted 22/02/2023 at 09:53:47
Unfortunately I don't see this situation coming to a head in the near future.

Same here. Just can't see Moshiri giving any of the board the boot.

I think the only way to get rid would be if Moshiri sells the club to some professionals (stop it) and they install their own board.
I can't see Moshiri selling either until we move into the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock in season 25-26.

Danny O’Neill
163 Posted 22/02/2023 at 10:31:07
I agree with that sentiment on Sharp, Darren. He could make a statement and stance by walking. Then there is a way back for him at Everton and with the supporters.

Right now, he seems to be nailing his colours to a rotting mast that is going to taint his legend. Walk now, Graeme, and preserve your legendary status and the joy you gave me as a teenager. I want to remember that, not this.

I'm overacting again. Bear with me, like all of us, I'm waiting patiently for Saturday.

Alan J Thompson
164 Posted 22/02/2023 at 10:32:56
I'm surprised at how many people are disappointed with the answers given to FAB, what did you expect?

Take your time to announce that you are putting such a board in place and then get them to try and find out what any supporters interested want to know. Then delay the replies which do not seem open to further question without actually answering anything.

Did I bother to read their response? Didn't see the point. Billy Liar is alive and well enough to not retire, what with all those lumps in the sofa and mattress.

Martin Mason
165 Posted 22/02/2023 at 10:53:22
This board are likely going nowhere unless there's a sale. For us fans, an "investment" won't really do.
Ray Smith
166 Posted 22/02/2023 at 10:56:10
Christine @113,

Well said in response to the numerous posts on this thread by Karl Masters.

Karl (numerous),

You are quite entitled to your opinion(s), however, as we can all see, Moshiri isn't going to sell until he's ready too, and that will be on or after the completion of the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

I for one am as anxious as the next Evertonian in respect of our current league position. However, instead of continually knocking the board, support the team, who under Sean Dyche are starting to show spirit, fight and a will to get this team back on track. So let's have some positive posts from yourself, supporting the new manager and the team. Under Sean Dyche, we have played 3, won 2; as I say, early days but encouraging.

I hear and see what you are saying, but you know as well as I do, Kenwright is going nowhere soon; and as Christine and others have said, the directors have got the message, but what's changed? Nothing.

If you want to continually knock the board, you're free to do so.

You also said you had a lay off posting recently; can I suggest you spend a while in a dark room, and when you come back out, life might look a bit brighter.

Think of the people suffering as a result of the earthquakes in Turkey and Syria, as well as the fight and spirit of all Ukrainians, then reflect.

Dave Abrahams
167 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:00:40
Darren (161),

You are spot on about Sharp.

“He made his bed a long time ago and he has steadfastly insisted on lying in it.” He gets no sympathy from me, though, because, as you followed up with: “His decision; his loss”.

Stick with your master, Sharp, you deserve each other.

Darren Hind
168 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:07:16
I actually think he may be first out, Dave.
Dave Abrahams
169 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:16:08
Darren (168)

It wouldn't surprise me, he serves no purpose as a Director – he's just a willing “Nodding Dog” with so much £ per nod.

Karl Masters
170 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:18:14
Ray Smith,

I don't have anything to add other than I am right behind the team (of course) on the pitch, always have been and always will be.

You have completely misunderstood everything I wrote. I'm not going to go over it all again, just take the time to read it properly please. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to understand it. Maybe you've just skimmed through?

Pete Clarke
171 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:39:57
Mark at #119

The problem we have with Moshiri is that he is a puppet for Usmanov and knows nothing about the game of football nor understands fans whatsoever.

He's also a chartered accountant which is scary when you think of the money we've wasted. He seems to be some sort of finance geek that's been used himself for the purpose of laundering money in some way or other.

Now just think of these things. If Bill Kenwright had not been allowed to remain as Chairman there would probably have been no sale of the club and therefore no new stadium. Stuck with Kenwright and no money!

Moshiri did buy the club though and left Bill to run the club in his clueless way but there have obviously been parts where Moshiri has stepped in to have his say. The appointments of Allardyce and Benitez, for example, almost certainly would not have been sanctioned by Bill.

It really shows the level of incompetence going on and lack of respect for this fanbase by both the owner and the Chairman.
The club has gone from bad to worse with money at its disposal so it's hard to see how any of them have a long-term future at our club. Hopefully a sale is imminent.


You must be easily offended and wear ear muffs at the game or in any pub around Liverpool because there's a lot of swearing and cursing going on, I can assure you. It's not nice, I agree, but it's ever-present, world wide and in every language too.

As for the board being told to stay away, I want them to stay away because they are utterly useless at running our football club. We are actually winning without them so all the more reason for them not to return.

Would you allow your child to attend a school that's being run as poorly as our club and would you not be angry at the principal if he also passed the blame onto the kids? There's only 1 other school in town, remember, but that's full of evil spirits so you can't go there.

As far as I'm concerned, anyway, we want the board gone for failing us and the club but, if they return as fans only, then I don't have a problem with that.

We want good leadership which can give us a team worth watching. Nobody is demanding immediate success.

David Hayes
172 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:40:34
The progress of this thread actually mirrors the very core of the situation that it "debates".

Mass vilification of individuals who are cast in the role of villan by many, who having never run or managed a Premier League football team, know how to do it successfully.

Having observed situations from the outside and taken edited history as fact, now they are fully qualified to hire or fire anybody considered in the premise of "Owners by right of being a customer", that doesn't factually exist in any way.

Yes, this club is in a nasty mess… but the causes are many and complex and certainly due to mismanagement. Why have the club sacked a series of different managers? Fan pressure definitely a factor. Why have many of these sacked managers found instant success elsewhere?

Fan fear and pressure resulting in short-term fixes that backfire. So the blame not only lies with the actual ownership but partly with the imaginary owners.

John Gall
173 Posted 22/02/2023 at 11:46:23
Just to lighten the mood a bit - last night at Anfield ! Wasn't that brilliant? They were utterly humiliated, outclassed, in front of that spoilt, ignorant, deluded bunch of international, glory-hunting, shallow fans. I just wish that the brilliant fifth goal by Benzema had been at the Kop end and he could have given them the Sheedy salute. And Carlo there on the sidelines, cool and rational, the anti-Klopp. Lovely. Watching the RS does help me to put Everton's troubles into perspective. I don't want what they have. As messed up as we are, we still have an authentic fanbase, mainly from the Liverpool area, with our love for the club rooted as much in heroic (and useless) failure and frustration. True love grows more from pain than happiness. It sounds perverse, but sometimes I think relegation would be sweeter than the vulgar spectacle of the neo-liberal racket of the Champions League. And Karl Masters - I do enjoy your posts and agree with you.
Mark Taylor
174 Posted 22/02/2023 at 12:18:11

I have read all your posts and of course you are entitled to your opinion. The one aspect of that I'm not sure about is whether you approve of (peaceful) protest or not, aimed at changing an untenable situation.

I think you are in favour but your beef is that the way it is expressed implies a physical threat to those involved rather than what I perceive – a threat to their pride and self-esteem.

I'm more than okay with the latter, it's a much-needed moral pressure on some very thick-skinned delusional people, I'm not okay (and nor I suspect would the vast majority be) with the former. Can we agree on that?

Note this protest is aimed at the board, the people supposedly responsible for managing the club in the broadest sense. I have mixed views about the owner. Can't fault his financial commitment even if his judgement seems seriously awry.

I am also, albeit without evidence, not persuaded that Usmanov was not significantly more involved with him and the club that is claimed. That is not welcome or helpful right now.

But a protest to remove an owner is less likely to succeed than a protest to remove the management, if they show themselves to be as out of their depth as they have done.

I ask this because, when re-reading your posts, it seems at times you imply that the board has actually done a reasonable job. There, we can only agree to disagree.

Martin Mason
175 Posted 22/02/2023 at 12:46:51
David @172, Agreed and a point I have made many times.
Eric Myles
176 Posted 22/02/2023 at 13:20:16
I look forward to the parade of the majority of supporters that support the board marching down Goodison Road led by Karl and Martin holding a banner saying "We've had good times".
Dave Abrahams
177 Posted 22/02/2023 at 13:24:45
David (172),

Do you really think that fans have pressurised the club into sacking managers? Surely the results under these managers have had a great deal to do with it, even under Allardyce, he got them safe but still played the dismal defensive football that he had the team playing since he had joined the club?

This was after claiming, in the past, that if his name was Allardycio, many clubs in Spain and France would have employed him.

He had Everton by the short and curlies when he joined and got a longer contract than Everton wanted to give him and he got the bullet with a lot more money than he deserved.

If you really think that Everton fans had the power to get rid of managers, then I wish the board had listened to some of us before Christmas. I think we would have been a few points better off than we are if they had given Frank his P45 then.

Eric Myles
178 Posted 22/02/2023 at 13:37:14
David #172, I'd be interested to know which of our former managers found "instant success elsewhere".
Jerome Shields
179 Posted 22/02/2023 at 13:44:08

Everton hasn't been a good career move for a lot of potential transferees for years, and probably is known as such in the football trade. So many players have had their careers blighted by the way the club has been run, and the soft touch the club has been for mercenary players.

On top, there has not been any coherent strategy to win anything and the club has been thought off as mid-table or relegation fodder at best.

The loyal fanbase is the only semblance of 'big club' attraction left, with the promise of a new stadium. Players not coming to the club has nothing to do with the fanbase.

Tom Hughes
180 Posted 22/02/2023 at 13:47:44
John #173,

I'm not sure I've ever read a post that personified romantic delusion more than yours. No wonder you don't want to protest! You appear to be the very picture of footballing contentment.

You are literally having your "good times" and would "rather have relegation than the Champions League" because we're shit,and we know we are, and that's something to be proud of. It reads like a Shakespearian tragedy directed Bill Kenwright himself. Be still my beating heart…

Why stop there? Let's go for multiple relegations and we can really laugh at those shallow Kopites winning European trophies as we queue for derby tickets against Bootle, and you can wax lyrical about beating our historic rivals and how authentic we are.

The mind boggles…

Steve Brown
181 Posted 22/02/2023 at 14:08:59
It is actually inevitable that the board will change now.

It is the only way out of the stalemate that now exists between the board and the supporters. It is Moshiri's only move if he wants to retain ownership. To do that, he has to rebuild his relationship with the fans, and there is only one strategy that will work.

I am sure it will be done in a dignified way, whether they deserve it or not.

Kieran Kinsella
182 Posted 22/02/2023 at 14:28:39

"True love grows more from pain than happiness. It sounds perverse, but sometimes I think relegation would be sweeter than the vulgar spectacle of the neo-liberal racket of the Champions League."

Why not go full hog, John, and send Everton to Europe specifically to the Dignitas Clinic in Switzerland? Or would that mercy kill alleviate the love-producing pain too much?

Christy Ring
183 Posted 22/02/2023 at 14:44:05
Sharp is supposed to have made a few comments defending their stance. He's definitely lost a lot of admiration, sadly Bill's puppet.
Danny O’Neill
184 Posted 22/02/2023 at 14:46:47
Pete @171, loved those analogies and your assessment.

Evil Spirits had me laughing.

You're right though. We just want to compete at the right end of the table. Do that and we may get success, but just be competitive.

David Hayes
185 Posted 22/02/2023 at 14:58:47
Dave #177.

There was little or no fan angst directed at Lampard. Nothing but overwhelming support for the team during games.

Lampard was clearly out of his tactical depth from the beginning of the season. Yet all rallied around Frank because he talked a good game and connected with fans, he was given more than others in the way of fan backing and patience because he is on the surface a dedicated, professional.

Allardyce did not even attempt to connect with the fan base, just produced (however ugly) results. Allardyce was despised by the fanbase because of this and the fact we needed him was shameful to the fans.

He was quickly removed as soon as possible, not based on results but fan reluctance to accept his non-connection. Toffees all love managers to "get us" foremost and primarily.

So do fans affect the turnover? I think that's evidently a factor.

Mike Gaynes
186 Posted 22/02/2023 at 15:16:09
Pete #171,

There's zero evidence that Moshiri is Usmanov's puppet or in any way corrupt. He's simply incompetent, no more, no less.

I thought he was showing signs of learning on the job, until he hired Benitez. Now, unfortunately, it's just a case of hanging on until he sells -- which I believe he will not do until the stadium is complete.

Michael Kenrick
187 Posted 22/02/2023 at 15:29:52
There's something in the FAB responses that seems to have Jerome's name writ large upon it:

"The football club is not under any special measures but has always continued to work closely and transparently with the Premier League, as is the norm for all Premier League clubs."

What are we to make of that? Doesn't seem to jive one little bit with the nonsense we got from Jerome insisting the Premier League had come in, taken over, and was somehow running the club.

Still, each to his own, eh, when it comes to glimpses of the Real World…

Karl Masters
188 Posted 22/02/2023 at 15:40:27
Mark Taylor - 174. We concur. We agree. You have put it very eloquently.

The Club has been a shambolic mess, especially recruitment, but intimidating people into not attending matches isn't the right way to sort it out. Imho.

In keeping prices down, providing a new stadium and the charity work, it's been exemplary work.

A balanced view.

Jerome Shields
189 Posted 22/02/2023 at 16:01:04
Micheal #18,7

They would say that. But should they be running close to any rule breaking, they will be managing under the constraints that the Premier League say they have to. As pointed out regarding Karl's extensive figures, this seems to have constrainted their transfer spending and the signing of new players. Though they may look that they have tried and players may not want to come, but it could be the Club was not concerned to sign anyone, because of trying to stay within the Premier League constraints.

I have dealt with Regulators. They have two characteristics – they are always too late, and when they do act, they are pretty faceless, but do make clear what they want changed in line with their rules and the legal authority they do have to demand such change.

It is also probable given Karl's figures, that other clubs have a similar constrained relationships with the Premier League, given that the best performing teams have the best figures.

Thank you, Karl, for the extensive work you don't on these figures. Fortunately I had just finished drinking my camomile tea in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow, before reading your post.

Dale Self
190 Posted 22/02/2023 at 16:09:28
John @173,

I was relating to your sentiments until you chose the words “neo-liberal order of the Champions League”… What tripe!

A bunch of fucking suits that service (a euphemism) the royalty clubs constantly found in breach of financial rules and you deem them 'liberal'. Where is the redistribution then? Huh?

Dave Abrahams
191 Posted 22/02/2023 at 17:12:31
David (185),

I think the fans got behind the team while Frank was manager and while the games were being played.

But quite a few of us on here thought he wasn't up to the job and said so. As the season progressed, he was getting more stick off fans with the way the team was just not being set up right. The same style, very poor substitutions and the central midfield wide open every week and yet he was allowed to carry on far too long.

Being accepted as a nice person definitely helped his case but never helped Everton FC one bit.

Allardyce was hired to keep them in the Premier League for the season he initially was approached but he stood his ground and got another season added on to his contract. I wanted him to come because I thought we would have gone down but,when he never changed the style once we were safe, I wanted him gone.

I doubt he was bothered when we let him go because he forced an extra year's pay getting his contract; he came for the money and got it.

Richard Lyon
192 Posted 22/02/2023 at 17:27:42
I have been back at Goodison for the Southampton and Leeds games after almost 40 years living overseas.

First observation is what a great fan base we have. Despite the difficult times we are in, everyone has been very friendly and the great sense of humour still lives on!

Went to Bramley-Moore Dock the other day and that is going to be amazing. I love Goodison but it is seriously old and outdated now and the move cannot come soon enough.

The board have seriously misjudged the mood of the fans and, in my opinion, need to apologize openly so that we can all move on. Like it or not, we need each other and all that really matters is the success of this great club.

Danny O’Neill
195 Posted 22/02/2023 at 18:08:49
Richard, I hope you enjoyed your trip home.

They have hurt us and offended us.

But we are still there and will be there at the next one and beyond.

Credit to you making the trip after 40 years. Just a shame the ground probably didn't look much different from your last visits.

Big respect, Richard.

Richard Lyon
196 Posted 22/02/2023 at 18:12:40
Thanks, Danny and Kieran. It's great to be back and now living in North Wales so I will be at as many games as I can get tickets for.

Brentford next…. Poud to be a blue!

Tony Abrahams
197 Posted 22/02/2023 at 19:10:30
Skirting through the rest of this thread then… even the people who are not happy with certain aspects of how the fans have now turned on the board, have got nothing positive to say about how the club is being run.
Nick Page
198 Posted 22/02/2023 at 19:18:47
Said it a million times, Tony: If you're a (supposed) fan who isn't happy with how the board is being treated you're a fully captured simp who is part of the problem, and has been since the day after Kenwright took over.

Pity the fools. These people are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're suffering from acute Stockholm syndrome.

Stan Grace
199 Posted 22/02/2023 at 19:19:28
David @172.

"Why have the club sacked a series of different managers? Fan pressure definitely a factor. "

Adding the word 'definitely' doesn't add validity to an opinion.

"Why have many of these sacked managers found instant success elsewhere?"

Many? Really? Ask my sons (Barça fans) what they think of Koeman. Allardyce got West Brom relegated. Martinez couldn't win anything with a top Belgium squad. Benitez?
Silva is doing well at the moment but it's too early to call it a 'success'.

Only Ancelotti has won 'many' trophies.

Brian Wilkinson
200 Posted 22/02/2023 at 19:30:31
Our board have been missing for the last two home games, and we won them both.

Do you think Bill has now crossed over the park to follow the Red Shite?

Last night's result has all the makings of Jinxy Bill being there… [Tongue firmly in cheek!]

Mick Davies
201 Posted 22/02/2023 at 20:54:42
David Hayes, congratulations, you are possibly the first person I've seen on TW actually totally contradict himself in 2 posts:

There was little or no fan angst directed at Lampard. Nothing but overwhelming support for the team during games.

And earlier: Why have the club sacked a series of different managers? Fan pressure definitely a factor. Why have many of these sacked managers found instant success elsewhere? Fan fear and pressure resulting in short-term fixes that backfire.

So what is it then, the fans give overwhelming support to one of the worst managers in the club's history, or we drive out managers because they're crap?

Brendan McLaughlin
202 Posted 22/02/2023 at 21:15:03
Jerome #189

Not trying to be smart but you're sort of stating the obvious.

If a club are sailing close to P&S limits then of course this will/should impact significantly on their decision making process. It would be verging on ridiculous if it wasn't.

Also regulatory oversight is by nature almost always retrospective in nature rather than proactive. It's not the FA's responsibility to ensure that clubs don't breach P&S rules. They simply judge with hindsight whether those rules have been broken.

That's not to say the FA won't work closely with clubs to ensure that they stay within P&S limits. Effectively thats what Everton have been saying. The Premier League "administrators", however, aren't in control in any real sense of our club.

You're still in Glasgow?

Michael Kenrick
203 Posted 22/02/2023 at 21:40:21
Mike @186,

"There's zero evidence that Moshiri is Usmanov's puppet or in any way corrupt. He's simply incompetent, no more, no less."

I just wonder, given the recent history and reputation of Russian oligarchs and their ill-gotten gains, if we can be so sure that the vast quantities of money poured into the club, were not acquired by some nefarious means. And if Moshiri was Usmanov's accountant at the time that money was acquired, or perhaps (whisper it) 'laundered', that he might not be so squeaky clean?

But as you say, there's apparently zero evidence. (If there was, surely The Guardian would have found it by now with all their prodding and poking…) It seems to me that Moshiri and Usmanov have been extremely clever to separate the money trail and avoid Usmanov having sufficient clear links with Everton to attract the attention of the authorities.

Or are we just waiting for the other shoe to drop? I fear that could potentially have the power to really destroy us.

Jerome Shields
204 Posted 22/02/2023 at 00:02:47
Brendan #202,

They appear to be working very close with Everton, even allowing them leeway with a generous £170million for Covid. I do think that Everton appear to be cooperating with the Premier League and probably have avoided sanctions as a result. I think the Premier League being involved is a good thing, since it constrains the excesses of before, which Moshiri failed to do. Though a lot more needs done.

Had to bring my son home to try to reduce symptoms, now that he is fit to travel. Had paid for a hotel, so took the opportunity to reduce the stuff in his flat though we are keeping it on. Will be travelling over for appointments for the next 2 months and try to keep his Employer on Board.

Micheal #203,

I think Moshiri is particularly adept at moving money about and sourcing finance offshore. He also appears able to put together complex investments. I doubt The Guardian will find too much. It is a pity he had not been more adept at running Everton.

Martin Mason
205 Posted 23/02/2023 at 00:51:14
Eric @176,

Where do you get such bizarre thoughts from? Certainly not from any post that I have written. I have never had any support for this incompetent owner and board and there is zero chance of you ever seeing me protesting with a placard.

Is there any way that I can help you?

Karl Masters
206 Posted 23/02/2023 at 01:41:50
I thought the same, Martin, but some people don't read things properly and misunderstand.

It's exhausting, and probably a waste of time trying to explain to some. I'm not sure you can help them to be honest, but as fellow Evertonians, we need to empathise with the frustrations … and most importantly get behind the team.

Martin Mason
207 Posted 23/02/2023 at 04:41:08
Karl, it seems that some people speed read comments in a rush to get their own comment down and form opinions of what you have said rather than comprehended it. Correct about empathising and getting behind the team.
Danny O’Neill
208 Posted 23/02/2023 at 05:35:30
To me, it seems this thread has reflected different and conflicting views. Nothing new there that we wouldn't discuss and debate in the pub on match day.

Even when we don't agree, we are all always behind the team.

Eric Myles
209 Posted 23/02/2023 at 06:39:03
Well, Martin #205,

You are stating that those protesting are only a vociferous minority of supporters, and denigrating their actions, as you did with the Blue Union and KEIOC. So here's your chance to show them they are wrong, mobilise the great majority that you and Karl claim exists and start a counter parade of your own.

You have always had support for Kenwright, especially during the Desperation Kirkby hearings. One of the reasons why Colin Fitzpatrick tore you a new one on several occasions and named you "Martian" wasn't it? – and didn't someone else name you "Duke"?

Not to mention that 'null theorem' Russell's teapot bollocks you used to sprout and your dismissal of facts that were put to you about Kenwright's chairmanship.

Eric Myles
210 Posted 23/02/2023 at 06:43:43
Karl #206,

Yes, it still amazes me the number of times people post stuff like "Kenwright saved the club by mortgaging his house to buy it".


"The board delivered a new training ground and record turnover."

Pete Clarke
211 Posted 23/02/2023 at 07:25:34
Mike @186,

I didn't say Moshiri was corrupt but that he was being used as a sort of finance geek and a front for Usmanov. It's a very Murky world where these two get the finances from – especially Usmanov whose background is completely shrouded in laundering and dirty dealings. Probably no dirtier than any other club's owners but that's the world we live in. It's probably a good thing that he was sanctioned before he got too deeply involved with us.

One thing is for sure and that is neither of them are big football fans so they are hanging around Everton for one reason only.

Who the fuck sponsors a training ground for £6 million a year? They are very clever in what they do but clearly they know little about the game.

What puzzles me is Moshiri made a business decision to leave Kenwright in charge but has not acted to protect his asset by changing the board and even allowing Kenwright to appoint inexperienced people. Really bizarre.

As for anyone complaining about intimidation towards the board. If you can seriously call it intimidation. Well, good luck getting any answers face to face as Kenwright long cut that avenue off and he's not likely to answer any emails.

I'd say Kenwright is currently doing impressions of Jim Carey in Liar, Liar because he doesn't want to hear the truth.

Peter Neilson
212 Posted 23/02/2023 at 08:11:46
Worth reading Putin's People by Catherine Belton. Oligarchs move a proportion of their wealth to non-Russian individuals they trust for safe keeping.

Putin can demand their wealth/companies at a moments notice and often has, look at how he destroyed Russia's richest man Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

Can't be proved but reasonable to assume that Usmanov has a rainy day fund not in his name.

Jerome Shields
213 Posted 23/02/2023 at 09:07:22
'We remain concerned about the lack of recognition from the club about the legitimate concerns being expressed by many supporters about the club's current situation and the need for further clarity in a number of key areas...

We have been extremely concerned about the lack of proactive visible leadership, communication and engagement with the supporter base at a time when it has been needed most. This situation is unacceptable, and we urge the club to address it. It is what Evertonians deserve'.

FAB conclusion.

Which is not very far off the consensus of opinion expressed on this thread.

Martin Mason
214 Posted 23/02/2023 at 09:20:34
Myles @209

I denigrated Blue Union because they were a passing fad that were destined to do nothing and I was spot on. I have never made a comment on KEIOC, and I have never “always” supported Kenwright only for what he did keeping us afloat when we looked like going under so you are talking through your chocolate starfish on everything.

One I'll mention in particular: Colin Fitzpatrick couldn't rip a new one off a dead lamb, let alone me. The only comments I ever made on Kirkby were to correct the bullshit being spread around by people like you who knew nothing about what was happening.

The “Null Theorum” is actually the Null Hypothesis to those, unlike you, who have a functioning brain cell. Regarding facts, like others, you don't know facts from ridiculous opinions. It was a pleasure being called Martian and the Duke by the way, I had stickers made to put on my bike.

If I can help dispel any of your other delusions, then just let me know.

Stan Grace
215 Posted 23/02/2023 at 09:57:38
Karl @206.
...some people don't read things properly and misunderstand.'

Exactly what you have done with the FAB response.

Even an opinion should be supported with evidence and there is no language in the response which could be interpreted as 'intimidating'. You may have read it that way but there is no evidence to support such an interpretation.

Rob Jones
216 Posted 23/02/2023 at 10:10:59
Martin, this isn't Twitter, and I'm less than convinced that you're going to persuade anyone of your point of view with the way you talk to people.
Martin Mason
217 Posted 23/02/2023 at 10:41:48
Rob, do you not feel that I have the right to respond to playground posts like Eric's in the same vein? I don't talk to "people" like that, only those who have the bad manners to make ad-hominem attacks on me.

To "people", I always respond in a very well-mannered way. I'm sorry if it wasn't to your liking but please try to see the big picture, it is never one way.

Tom Hughes
218 Posted 23/02/2023 at 11:44:37

You supported Kirkby and Kenwright throughout.

Colin Fitzpatrick tied Everton, Tesco and Knowsley Council officials and high-paid reps in knots without breaking sweat. He would have no problem doing the same with you.

Andy Crooks
219 Posted 23/02/2023 at 12:13:43
I can recall Martin offering a defence of Kenwright a number of years ago. It frustrated a number of people including me.
However, as should happen in a reasonable debate, it seems that Martin has been open-minded enough to be swayed by the arguments.

Kenwright has lived the dream on the cheap and his time is up. He will never walk away while he can still fool a few. Well done to those who tell him straight.

Martin Mason
220 Posted 23/02/2023 at 12:19:11
Tom @218,

I never at anytime supported Kirkby or Kenwright – just argued against those who were talking nonsense. Colin Fitzpatrick was just the notional KEIOC rep who did nothing, tied nobody in knots, and disappeared after his 15 minutes of fame.

Seriously, he had zero effect on what was happening and the decision was nothing to do with him or his hobby horse. Should I best say Colin who? Blue what?

Martin Mason
221 Posted 23/02/2023 at 12:37:27
Andy @219, I'm always swayed by arguments. What I have done with respect to Kenwright is that, as his role changed from being the man who kept us afloat by all devious means possible to the parasite he has become, I have changed my views. This is surely what reasonable people do as the facts change?

I have one main policy when I comment and that is to defend those who can't defend themselves against attacks made against them which are patently incorrect. That is to protect them against the internet mob who would decide things based on Kangaroo courts.

I have not defended Kenwright for many a year now. Kenwright's role changed absolutely when Moshiri came when he became enriched and with almost unlimited power? Then he became a monster.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Kenwright is the worst thing that has ever happened to the club and he could wipe the club out while blaming everybody else. Can we get rid of him? Not in any way, he is a monster.

Dave Abrahams
222 Posted 23/02/2023 at 12:59:53
Martin (220),

It would be very interesting for you to tell us who was talking nonsense about the move to Kirkby. KEIOC was made up of various people, solicitors, barristers, doctors, teachers amongst them Colin Fitzpatrick was a member of KEIOC and as such would have known what was going on.

Twelve months before the Kirkby move was ruled out by the courts, a lady got on Radio Merseyside, she was a regular Evertonian who rang in quite a lot after being to Everton games, home and away to give her point of view on how the game had gone in a very reasonable way.

This lady spoke this time about why the Kirkby stadium wouldn't go ahead, she made five or six points on why it would fail. Most of them were covered by the judge who ruled the move out when it came to be approved or not.

Everton FC wasted plenty of money trying to win approval of the move through the courts; KEIOC spent some of their own money getting the move stopped.

Genuine devout Evertonians who loved and cared about the club they supported who if they are still able will be still supporting the club and team now, they didn't want fame, 15 minutes or 15 seconds, whatever, they wanted what was best for the club and supporters of the club. Did Kenwright? His actions throughout his tenure of the club suggest not and his latest actions may hasten his departure of the club.

Karl Masters
223 Posted 23/02/2023 at 13:00:06
Stan Grace 215… think you are also misunderstanding, but does this statement below not seem intimidating?

“If you choose to attend, you will be met with a post-match protest held outside the director's car park following the game. We will make you aware once again that you are not welcome now, and you never will be again.”

I wonder how they would be ‘made aware'..? It could be waving a few signs, but I think the more realistic ones among us, from what we have already seen after Southampton game, know they would be showered with abuse, implied physical threats by others and an all-round unpleasant experience.

Martin Mason
224 Posted 23/02/2023 at 13:32:13
Dave @222,

The move to Kirkby was rejected on one point only and that was that there was no justification for additional retail facilities in Kirkby which Tesco needed to make the ground a reality.

It was absolutely nothing to do with KEIOC and the whole concept of KEIOC is a total insult to the tens of thousands of us Evertonians who don't live in the City and yet attend all games and form the core of our wonderful support. It was a total irrelevancy whatever Colin who? said.

Kieran Kinsella
225 Posted 23/02/2023 at 13:45:19

There aren't tens of thousands of Evertonians living outside the city who attend all games. The stadium only holds 39,000 so if “tens of thousands” are at “all” games who live outside the city, then presumably none of the locals attend on account of the lack of room.

Michael Kenrick
226 Posted 23/02/2023 at 13:50:53
That's a complete myth, Martin @221, as is your way.

Kenwright has not changed at all. He's exactly the same control freak he's always been.

You're the one who's changed – although you seem to be having trouble admitting it. Maybe it was the education you've received on these very pages where so many posters challenged your views until you finally turned?

Danny O’Neill
227 Posted 23/02/2023 at 14:01:04
Karl, I genuinely admire you for standing your ground, but I don't see anything intimidating in that statement. "Made aware"; that's just threatening to voice an opinion, not violence. It's not threatening at all. I suppose it's down to interoperation of what threatening means based on personal views.

Maybe it's just me and my thick skin. I've been more intimidated by some of the kids in Speke who used to played football against the shutters of the derelict shops on the Crescent when I used to go and fetch a paper.

Anyway, you made me randomly think of a memory. Back in the day, can't remember the match, but my Dad's mate was up and went the match with us. He wasn't an Everton fan or from Liverpool

As soon as we parked up on what was then a bit of wasteland opposite the Anfield Pub near City Road, a gang of "mind your car mister kids" came over. Before we could speak and negotiate a deal, In his "wisdom" he told them it's okay, there's a dog in the back (there wasn't).

One of them, must have been only 8 years old immediately responded "can he put out fires mister"!!!

Brilliant. The man had no answer.

My dad gave them £2 (it was the 80s) and they were there when we got back; we gave them a tip.

I see the next generation are being put at the forefront for the march on Saturday. Good on them. Those poor, dedicated young Evertonians have grown up fed on scraps, false hope and listening to the stories (ramblings) of my generation and those before me. They are there every week and deserve better.

Eric Myles
228 Posted 23/02/2023 at 14:08:17
Mason (you in Darren Hind mode now?) #214, 5555

I see others besides myself remember your previous position, which doesn't really seem to have changed at all, you're still denigrating the views and actions of concerned fans that are willing to put some time and effort into trying to obtain positive change for our Club.

Dave Abrahams
231 Posted 23/02/2023 at 14:26:07
Martin (224),

No there was a load of points that were made after that inquiry, Liverpool City Barrister told the planning Inspector Wendy Burton:

“Tesco's expert doesn't think the money is coming from Tesco and Knowsley Council doesn't think it's coming from Knowsley so it's miracle of modern economics because nobody is prepared to tell what the situation really is, after an Everton director Earl had stated "This money is manna from Heaven!"”

The stadium was described as a cowshed in a small town by others and it was rejected later because it didn't meet the criteria in terms of design quality, not to mention a one-track railway station.

I think it was rejected because a lot of the plans hadn't been thought out properly and who was really going to finance this whole scheme – nobody seemed to know.

Tony Abrahams
232 Posted 23/02/2023 at 14:43:30
When discussing anything Martin, the most important thing is to learn from others, or try and educate them mate. I think I've just been educated off you Martin, but I'm still doubtful that Kirkby only failed because of the decision on retail only, so it would be interesting if you publish this please.
Martin Mason
233 Posted 23/02/2023 at 14:51:28

You can dig around in the weeds and invent your own conclusions but the result of the enquiry was that it was rejected because there was no requirement for additional retail facilities in Kirkby.

Martin Mason
234 Posted 23/02/2023 at 14:58:33

The report of the enquiry is on the internet and I would never have commented on it without reading and understanding it. It was rejected for the reasons I said and no amount of abusing me will change that. The bile that was thrown at me at the time was only because I pointed out that inconvenient fact.

Kieran Kinsella
235 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:01:11

Explain then to me the math involved of tens f thousands of out of area fans attending every game? Who are all the locals walking to the ground from home? Are they just admiring Goodison from the outside while the tens of thousands of Kirkby residents and Norwegians take up all the seats? Obviously there are many out of town fans but clearly the majority of attendees who go to ALL THE GAMES (not just the odd one here or there) live locally. ERGO KEIOC.

James Hughes
236 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:06:11
Somebody take that shovel from Martin please

Denham said in his letter spelling out the decision that the Tesco and Everton plans for a stadium and 500,000 sq ft of retail anchored by the Tesco supermarket were too large for Kirkby and would cause more harm than good to the Knowsley town.

the proposal would be likely to have a harmful effect on the vitality and viability of Kirkby, Bootle, Skelmersdale and St Helens and would conflict with Regional Spatial Strategy to support and enhance Liverpool city centre…"

Denham also upheld the inspector's conclusions that the £400m Destination Kirkby scheme would not promote public transport and could generate more private car trips. On sustainability grounds, Denham said the plans were not likely to enhance or protect the environment of Kirkby.

In his own conclusions to the decision letter, the Secretary of State the "physical regeneratuin of the old [Kirkby] town centre is uncertain, and the stadium would result in harmful impact on many of the town's residents."

An alternative regeneration scheme for Kirkby should be drawn up, Denham added.

Danny O’Neill
237 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:08:24
At the time (and I was away a lot, so didn't have a lot of insight), my concern with Kirkby was people suggesting it wasn't in Liverpool. Everyone who has read my posts knows my thoughts.

Kirkby, Bootle, Huyton and Halewood, they are all part of the Liverpool City Region even if they are technically not in the city of Liverpool.

It's never harmed Manchester United being outside the city of Manchester and technically there are no teams in the city of London as they are all in the boroughs that make up Greater London.

I said at the time, I thought the land on the site of the old Airport at Speke with the transport links would have been a good location. Dual carriageway access, ample space for car parks, the Airport and Liverpool South Parkway station nearby. But then that was me being biased!!

Anyway, for me, it's gone. It ended up being a badly though out plan following the Kings Dock fiasco.

It is 30 years late, but we are moving to Bramley Moore on the banks of the Mersey in a stadium we can be proud of within the city of Liverpool boundaries.

Dave Abrahams
238 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:15:16
Martin (233), it was rejected and followed later with a fuller explanation which James (236) has explained.

Here’s another name for you Martin: Frankie Howard, infamy, infamy they’ve all got it infamy.

Steve Brown
239 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:15:44
Planning permission was not given as move would breach shopping policy, which discourages major supermarket chains from taking business away from town and city centres.

It wasn’t declined because the was ‘no requirement for additional retail facilities in Kirby.’

There is a distinction there, Martin. Kirby might have benefited from the stadium and retail facilites (although Denham said it was doubtful), but permission was turned down because it would have taken business from, apart other places, Liverpool City Centre.

Danny O’Neill
240 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:28:27
Technically these days I am an out of town supporter. I make an approximate 500 mile round trip and spend on average about 18 hours travelling to watch a home games. And that's if it's a 3pm kick-off and doesn't involve an overnight stay or ridiculously early start for a midday one. Noon for the US cohort; lets not forget those global followers who are equally as dedicated. Okay, I could cut that a bit shorter if I didn't go to the pubs I frequent!!

Some do even more than me. I won't call them out but they know who they are and I will see them at the next one.

My son spent his early years in Liverpool. His first school was Much Woolton. He spent 3 years at John Moores University and had a season ticket. He's lived most of his life in Italy, Northern Ireland and London. He goes to some of the away games with me when I can sort him a ticket. Last one was West Ham.

Those West Country Blues make the long trip every week.

The guy who I meet in the park when we walk the dogs and who fixed my roof supports Everton. He's born and bred in west London and has no obvious connection and has never been to Goodison but follows religiously and we talk every time we meet.

My mate from Warwick who didn't even follow football until he met me is a fanatical Evertonian as are his two kids. They live in Bedfordshire. My fault, I know.

It doesn't matter who comes from where, just like the players.

Sorry, but in the modern game, if we are serious about regaining our status as a big club, we can't exclude based on location.

We should be proud of our local roots as am more than anyone. It's my city. It's my home, always will be. Given the nature of our fanbase we obviously have to balance that with ensuring the traditional fanbase has access to the club and not do what that shower of shite have done.

Kieran Kinsella
241 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:37:30

I'm not suggesting there aren't out-of-towners – just Martin's assertion that tens of thousands of them attend each and every game.

The other point is that Kirkby specifically is a small town. It's not convenient for either locals around Goodison or out-of-towners to get there versus something nearby they can walk or ride the bus too or out-of-towners can easily access by train, plane or helicopter, whatever meets their needs.

Martin Mason
242 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:38:46
I know exactly why permission was rejected thanks. I read the report.
Dave Abrahams
243 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:50:36
Martin (242) You’re not vexed there are you Martin!!
Tom Hughes
244 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:51:04

You supported kirkby and Kenwright wholeheartedly, that's why there's such venom in your response to the mere mention of KEIOC and Colin Fitz. You obviously haven't learnt to kerb that grossly misplaced anger, and you were certainly not at the inquiry to judge their contribution.

KEIOC entered the single largest body of evidence to the inquiry and were commended for it. Elstone's jaw dropped when he saw it being carted in literally by the box load and subsequently when the transport plan (in its umpteenth revision) was laughed out of the room, as the small print clause that the capacity might have to be capped as the transport modellers were unable to make the claimed access/egress figures work. KEIOC had exposed those transport lies, that never appeared in the hobson's choice ballot.

The finances were pie in the sky, there was practically no enabling value in the development (max £10-12m). The club could've proceeded to apply for separate planning permission, but by then even they couldn't wait to drop the hot potato, as every lie supporting it was exposed, and practically no support for it on every poll carried out by the various fan websites.

You fell for it hook, line and sinker slagged off your fellow Evertonians for correctly calling it out and evidently you're still deeply upset by their success. You should at least have the good grace to show gratitude to some of those that helped to avert that disaster.

Danny O’Neill
245 Posted 23/02/2023 at 15:52:37
I know what you were getting at Kieran, No problem

I just always get a bit frustrated at the sometimes insular outlook. It's odd because our city has always been welcoming to outsiders, which we are proud of.

I wrote my first article that got printed (yes printed!!) in the Red Echo back in about 1997 about incorporating Knowsley and the southern part of Sefton into the City of Liverpool.

We now call it the Liverpool City region, which includes the city of Liverpool, Knowsley, Sefton, the Wirral and St Helens. We are a bit behind the curve as Greater Manchester stole a march decades ago with a unified identity. But at least we're getting there.

Looking back Kirkby wasn't a good idea. Speke would have been a better one.

But I didn't rise to the Kopite jibes. They will never get me to rise above their shite. As a now friend says, I'd rather live with our history than have theirs. A stain on English football.

Onto Bramley Moore.

Tony Abrahams
246 Posted 23/02/2023 at 16:11:58
I like you Martin, but this is where I think you’re misinformed, imo, mate.

Colin Fitzpatrick, didn’t need any fame, but he saw through Bill Kenwright, and what he was trying to do to Everton football club, very early, and I think the man must have been exasperated with the thousands of Evertonians, that our owner was kidding, around these times. Some people were probably also giving him a lot of stick for seeing through Kenwright’s lies?

The blue union were very unfairly, and strangely derided by many, whilst the people of KEIOC, deserve a lot of praise, for showing the depth of love that Evertonians, have for our football club. If I’m lucky enough to still be here, then I will be raising a lot of drinks to these people, when Everton play their first game at Bramley Moore, ON THE BANKS OF THE ROYAL BLUE MERSEY. Thanks to Moshiri and KEIOC🙏

Tom Hughes
247 Posted 23/02/2023 at 16:22:15
Speke was no better. The issue wasn't only one of perception/identity (however strong that argument was)... it was one of basic logistics. Speke is equally, if not more distant from the city's centre and all its transport hubs. It is also, further away from the club's north-end roots and traditional fanbase stronghold. The public transport is minimal, rail is distant and the roads serving Speke are also few in number and regularly gridlocked without a stadium.
Danny O’Neill
248 Posted 23/02/2023 at 16:54:27
Interesting Tom.

It's a defunct debate now, but for many travelling from outside the city, Speke would be easier.

I'll repeat myself, lots of land for car parking. An airport. A rail station on the mainline from London along with Hunts Cross in close proximity. Dual carriageway access not far from the motorway network. That's hardly poor public transport links, which could have been enhanced further.

I know our roots. I respect them But the club doesn't belong to L4. Forget what I do now, I used to travel every week with many friends from L24, to L4, be that on a long bus ride (81D) or from Hunt's Cross to Kirkdale. I don't see why the coin couldn't have been flipped.

People like Brian Murray travel from outside the city, Rob from the south of the city. Derek from Chester. We'd have all still gone the match.

Anyway, old news now. We are going to BMD.

Stan Grace
249 Posted 23/02/2023 at 19:19:36
Karl @223. Thanks for the response. I would like to point out the use of 'seem' here.

'Stan Grace 215… think you are also misunderstanding, but does this statement below not seem intimidating?'

You clearly feel that the response is intimidating but I can only repeat that there is no direct use of intimidating language which would support your view.

My reading of it is that there will be a post-match protest if the owner/directors attend Goodison again and while I would hope that any criticism they receive avoids personal abuse, they should bear in mind that beforehand they dragged the good name of all Everton supporters through the media mud.

Tom Hughes
250 Posted 23/02/2023 at 20:54:39
Danny #248,

I also travelled from Speke for decades, and still go by 81 (from Woolton) now. The stations are both over a mile away. There is only a handful of buses per hour serving Speke, and the boulevard is the only road passing the site and is at saturation, as is the nearest feeder road (Speke Hall Ave), for most of the day.

Like Kirkby, the site is too peripheral and the highest density of our support is at the opposite end of the city. Kirkby had far more feeder roads (including 2 motorways), more buses (Kirkby is over twice the size), a closer station and it's transport plan was still laughed out of the public inquiry because access & egress times were so poor it threatened to cap the capacity at less than Goodison Park.

Basic logistics mean that a more central site will almost always be superior to any peripheral one, particular one next to a river with so little access.

Danny O’Neill
251 Posted 23/02/2023 at 21:27:18
Fair point ts Tom, but Speke has better direct rail connections to the rest of the country and the Airport (thinking ahead and we become big, attracting fans from abroad). The road connections are decent, not far off Kirkby, and investment would have improved the infrastructure. Kirkdale is hardly a 5 minute walk from Goodison unless you get a jog on.

Interesting discussion but not relevant as it wasn't ever going to happen. I don't think it was even considered?

More importantly I hope they are planning on the ingress and egress of supporters from BMD will be tight. One road and two stations, one a mile away, the other nearly 2 miles away. A d neither are mainline.

Saying that, the way they steward getting out of the Emirates and Tottenham involves a long trek as they shepherd you towards certain stations. West Ham is similar. Even though you can see the the station in almost touching distance, then send you on a route that turns a 5 minute walk into a 20 minute one.

Ed Fitzgerald
252 Posted 23/02/2023 at 22:51:36

Kirkby or Speke would have been a disaster for the club,. As Bob Waterhouse highlights in his excellent book about Everton’s fans we still have a strong localised historical and current fan base from the North of the City compared to the rest of Merseyside.

We are called Everton after all so securing a ground near the City Centre seems to make good sense. If you expand your logic moving the ground to Warrington would therefore be desirable because of good transport links. With the exception of perhaps securing the Kings Dock we have an ideal, iconic new ground close enough to the clubs roots.

I am delighted we are can attract fans from far and wide but I believe it’s a mistake to ignore the loyalty of a local fan base who have persisted watching the blues in great numbers despite the shite that has been served up.

Eric Myles
253 Posted 24/02/2023 at 04:33:54
At the time of the inquiry, Martin was trying to tell Colin Fitz what had happened in the inquiry and what the outcome was, he knew because he "read it on the internet".

However, Colin Fitz was AT the inquiry, presenting evidence and questioning witnesses. That's why Colin was able to rip Martin a new one and why he chooses to belittle the names of Colin, The Blue Union and KEIOC instead of being thankful to them.

Danny O’Neill
254 Posted 24/02/2023 at 07:10:48
Ultimately the club belongs to the supporters, Ed.

Those loyal supporters don't just live in or come from L4. Myself and many others included.

Look, water under the bridge and we've eventually ended up with a fantastic location close to the club's roots.

It's all about the future now. Well it's about tomorrow first and foremost.

Ed Fitzgerald
255 Posted 24/02/2023 at 07:59:28

I recognise that not all supporters live in the North End of the City or indeed within Merseyside. It is however a defining feature of our club that it has been sustained by a highly localised support. I have not lived in Liverpool for many years but it would have been a mistake to move away from the City Centre and thanks to the likes of KEIOC we avoided that fate.

As you rightly say it's water under the bridge now and if we can manage to stay up this season hopefully a brighter future may be within reach.

Martin Mason
256 Posted 26/02/2023 at 06:07:12
Eric @253,

I didn't read it on the Internet, I read the planning application enquiry report back to front and several times, I didn't need to be there and, as I was in Malaysia, it would have been difficult.

Colin was at the enquiry for a small time and nothing he discussed was given as a reason for the planning application being turned down. Colin was an intellectual lightweight who was unfortunately given 5 minutes of fame. He'd struggle to rip a wet paper bag, sorry – never mind a new arsehole for anybody.

Neither I nor anybody else has any reason to be thankful to Colin, KEIOC or the Blue Union – they achieved absolutely nothing, other than to their sycophants. Now enough of your nonsense.

Paul Burns
258 Posted 26/02/2023 at 09:39:45
Martin Mason, enough of your nonsense. You supported Kenwright and Kirkby. Neither were or are in Everton's best interests so anything you say is worthless drivel designed to wind people up.

And all this unneeded "advisory" board does is give oxygen to people killing Everton like you.

Martin Mason
259 Posted 26/02/2023 at 09:40:42
Apologies for this comment above regarding Colin, I have no grudge against him and am sure that he's a good lad.
Tom Hughes
260 Posted 27/02/2023 at 10:33:41
That's some brass neck you've got mate I'd seriously consider weighing it in.

The irony of you, who whole-heartedly supported Kenwright and Destination Kirkby calling someone an "intellectual lightweight" is profound. Unbelievably so, with respect to Colin Fitz and what transpired.

You obviously never read the public inquiry reports at all, otherwise you would never make such ridiculous claims. Similar to the far-fetched nonsense you openly supported and reiterated throughout that whole episode on these forums If you had read the public inquiry reports you would have seen how wrong you were and how everything you held so dear was systematically dismantled, just as they were already on various threads and articles here by KEIOC members. It was KEIOC that first highlighted the issues and brought different factions of the council together and started the whole ball rolling It was KEIOC who presented the biggest body of evidence. If you had read the Inquiry reports fully, you would know that they were directly commended for this and the various aspects they contributed to.

All you did was "happy clap" and cheerlead the multiple falsehoods on here, eventually going quiet as it unravelled piece by piece and all support for it evaporated. One of a whole series of debacles that are a prelude to where we are now!

Barry Hesketh
261 Posted 27/02/2023 at 14:22:38
The Esk has written his view on Moshiri and his leadership of Everton, on what is the seventh anniversary of the Iranian 'taking charge'.

Leadership required urgently by Moshiri

262 Posted 28/04/2023 at 13:00:21

263 Posted 28/04/2023 at 13:00:21

264 Posted 28/04/2023 at 13:00:21

265 Posted 28/04/2023 at 13:00:21

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.

How to get rid of these ads and support TW

© ToffeeWeb