Now that the magic seems so irretrievably lost, Everton fans are hurt, bewildered and angry

23/05/2023 260comments  |  Jump to last

Lifelong Evertonian and writer, Brian Viner, pens an anguished ode to his beloved Blues as another final-day battle for survival looms.

"Everton, by any historical measure, are among the few genuine giants of English football. So now that the magic seems so irretrievably lost, fans are hurt, bewildered and angry. I am, too. 

"Win, lose or draw [on Sunday] the bigger question is where Everton go next? I don't mean the Premier League or the Championship, to Manchester United or Rotherham United, I mean existentially.

"I'm not qualified to analyse what the financial consequences of relegation could mean with the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock still incomplete, still less to unpick the threat of sanctions should an independent commission decide we broke Financial Fair Play rules. 

"But I am long enough in the tooth to know that, in football, nothing lasts for ever. Good times pass, and so do bad times. [W]hatever becomes of us on Sunday, nothing will dampen my ardour for one of the great loves of my life."

» Read the full article at Daily Mail

Reader Comments (260)

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James Flynn
1 Posted 24/05/2023 at 02:47:57

Everything's happened right before our eyes.

Going by ToffeeWeb and a number of other Everton supporters' sites, hurt and angry for sure.

Not bewildered. It is and has been perfectly clear, who has put the Club in this position.

Edit: I posted before reading the article. The writer waived off responsibility for his long-time friend Bill Kenwright. That is bewildering.

Kieran Kinsella
2 Posted 24/05/2023 at 03:02:18

I was just reading an interview with Heinrich Himmler's daughter. According to her, he was a nice bloke and really knew nothing about the holocaust. Weird that cause millions say otherwise. Funny how personal relationships can blind some to the truth.

Mike Gaynes
3 Posted 24/05/2023 at 06:05:04
Oh, give it a fucking rest, both of you.

James, he doesn't discuss Kenwright's responsibility one way or another, just discloses the long friendship and declines to kick him around. As you would with a friend.

And Kieran, your usually entertaining cynicism is way over the line on this one. Nazi references are never appropriate. Disappointed in you, mate.

Christine Foster
4 Posted 24/05/2023 at 06:32:48
Slit wrists job...

Some passion required!!!

My Way by Frank Sinatra:

And now, the end is near,
And so we face the final curtain,
My friends I'll say it clear because I'm certain,
I've watched it all, in joy and tears,
Travelled far and near for this club,
We give it all and so much more,
Everton are my way,

Regrets, who gives a fuck,
Far too many, that I'm certain
They reach down and lift us up
We love this team, even though we're hurtin'

For what is a Blue, what have we got,
We have our pride, that means a lot,
Our blood is blue, and it boils hot,
We'll show them all, just what we got,

We'll do it our way!

Colin Glassar
5 Posted 24/05/2023 at 07:20:38
Excellent piece by Brian Viner. He sums up what most of us feel right now. It's like watching a loved one with a terminal illness slowly wither and die. I hope Everton's sickness is not terminal but it's not looking great.

Viner just reconfirms everyone's suspicions about Menwright's media connections and the whitewashing that's gone on for years. He, like others in the media, knew Kenwright was lying through his teeth but chose to remain silent.

So on we go to our own version of High Noon but without Garry Cooper and without our main weapon. I still think we'll win though. UTFT!!!

Andy Crooks
6 Posted 24/05/2023 at 07:31:26
Colin, you're not being dramatic enough!!
Jim Lloyd
7 Posted 24/05/2023 at 08:24:31
To me, I hold Kenwright to be the major contributor to our downfall, if not the major reason we're on the verge of relegation, and possibly facing financial and other sanctions.

However, the lad who wrote this column is an Evertonian. A Blue who's feeling the anguish as much as any of us. He's a friend of Kenwright's and all he's said is he isn't acting against a friend. Seems to me many are born Evertonians and many more choose our club. Well, Brian chose Everton, or Everton chose him, when he was 8 years old.

He's written from his heart and it pours out from this article. His job is journalism and many journalists write pieces that the editor wants. As a Blue, he'll have his own thoughts.

I think his last chapter, he touches a chord with me:

"Years ago I used to have a kind of kinship with Man City fans. Man Utd were top dogs in the city, as Liverpool were in ours. But they were sleeping giants, just as we were in ours. Well they woke up and roared, whereas we're we're still snoring our heads off." Apologies for scousism!

You're right, Colin. We're lacking some big guns. But we've got one more that'll be there.


Stan Grace
8 Posted 24/05/2023 at 08:53:32
If, as has been suggested here, Brian Viner has not wished to comment on Kenwright's responsibilities for our current situation due to their friendship, then he shouldn't have been given the piece to write. We need objective journalism.
Danny O’Neill
9 Posted 24/05/2023 at 08:57:36
The magic isn't lost.

We are hurt, angry, frustrated and despairing at our potential fate.

But you only have to read these columns and be in the various stadiums around the country to know that we care passionately and will always do so.

We have been let down. We have been abandoned. It hasn't stopped us.

It never will.

Get Sunday out of the way and then the day of reckoning for those who failed us is coming.

Jim Lloyd
10 Posted 24/05/2023 at 09:16:09
Spot on, Danny.

Stan, Brian Viner says he's a friend of Kenwright's in his article, it wasn't suggested in a post that he's a friend of Kenwright's so didn't want to join in the "savage kicking" as he puts it.

This is just a page filler. There's plenty of page fillers including one that said "Send Them Down" written by those who have no love of Everton. This one happens to be by one who loves Everton. Which I much prefer to the previous one mentioned.

There was an article in the Mail on 5 April which goes into some depth on who is responsible for the mire Everton are in. That's Moshiri and Kenwright according, to their Chief Sports Writer.

Dave Abrahams
11 Posted 24/05/2023 at 09:52:15
Don’t know how strong an Evertonian this friend of Kenwright is, but he has a good go at Mr. Moshiri’s involvement with Everton while saying nothing about his friend, passing the buck it seems to me.

He followed Everton to places like Middlesborough and Grimsby he says, it was a wasted journey the one to Grimsby, we lost at Goodison Park. Sounds like on of his friends stories to me.
I’d put this article in the bin, I think there might be a few more stories like this one before the game on Sunday,none of them will persuade me to change my mind who has really damaged this club over a long period and it’s all in black and white, the lies and deceit this man has fostered on the club and fans.

Kim Vivian
12 Posted 24/05/2023 at 09:52:47
I think Viner's comment re Kenwright speaks volumes, tbh.
Brian Harrison
13 Posted 24/05/2023 at 10:00:59
I think we are all hurt, angry and frustrated at what has happened to our club, but we still love this club just as much as when we attended our first game at Goodison Park.

I wish I could put my finger on what has gone wrong; I think probably a collection of poor players, poor management at times, and poor direction from the owners and board members.

But I look across the park and they have had bad owners probably in Hicks and Gillette – worse than any we have had – and in Evans and Hodgson had some very ordinary managers. But, since they got back in the top division in 1961, they have never finished lower than 8th.

We have gone from being Mersey Millionaires, as we were dubbed under our greatest Chairman, to a club who struggle to get into the top half of the Premier League.

We used to produce some very good homegrown players but we now struggle to produce youngsters who can come through and hold down a regular first-team spot.

I think what hasn't changed is we still pay too many of our players what Champions League players get, but invariably the salary paid doesn't translate to talent.

But maybe all this is for another day and, despite our lack of quality, I still believe we will still be a Premier League club next season.

I have been there for all the other times we could have dropped out of the top league: 2-down at half-time to Wimbledon and without fans in the Park End as it was being rebuilt but we still created an atmosphere that said "We are not going down!" – and we didn't.

Even last season, when we all thought we would have to beat Palace to stay up and again found ourselves 2-down at half-time, I reminded my Son and Grandson who thought we were gone, "I have seen this club come back from a 2-goal deficit before" – and we did.

So keep the faith and, even if we go a goal behind, remember we are Everton and we will survive. Just finally, I hope nobody goes on the pitch at the end. Maybe we should just turn our backs on this owner and board who have turned their backs on us?

Kevin Molloy
14 Posted 24/05/2023 at 10:07:03
I think he's actually saying 'the only reason I am not laying into him too is cos we've been on friendly terms, but he's as much to blame as anyone'. This article is in no way a defence of Kenwright. In fact, it is significant that even 'friends' are now saying 'he's a mate, but what the fuck!'

He is gone so fast in the Summer.

Dave Williams
15 Posted 24/05/2023 at 10:14:38
A “ nothing” article expressing the feelings of a fan but not attempting to analyse why we are here. Fine in its context and not meant to go deeper.

Things look bleak but we ain't dead yet. We have to get vocal on Sunday and keep it going should we concede. The worst thing we can do is go quiet and accept our fate. With players out injured, we have to play our part. The time for expressing grief for our plight can come but not yet – we all have a big game to prepare for.

Our West Country Blues coach was sold out some time ago – 77 on board – and loads of others are travelling hundreds of miles to support the team. Let's make a noise like never before and scare the crap out of Bournemouth – All Together Now and show the Spirit Of The Blues… Could be a song there??

Danny O’Neill
16 Posted 24/05/2023 at 10:22:27
The more I think about it, the more this has riled me.

If I could, I would write for the Daily Mail.

Dave Williams and the West Country Blues, safe travels. I genuinely admire your dedication.

It is Wednesday and I am clock-watching.

Dave Lynch
17 Posted 24/05/2023 at 10:48:26
Mike @3.

You give it a rest, mate, and stop calling people out for using "Nazi" references – whatever happened in that dark period of history happened, and it was atrocious.
You attempting to stop people referring to historical events is censorship, something the German Government of the time used to their advantage.

You also choose to support a team that it is rumoured Hitler himself went to watch when staying with his Aunt Bridget in Stanhope Street in the city visiting his brother.

This was all unearthed when his aunt's diaries were found.

I, as well as many other families, lost people fighting Germany and part of my family was wiped out in the blitz.

You're not the ToffeeWeb police, mate, and history and the unforgivable crimes committed will not go away if nobody mentions them.

Matt Traynor
18 Posted 24/05/2023 at 11:13:40
The club has been mismanaged since the Premier League was created, having been one of the big 4 or 5 pushing for it. Reading the comments on any Mail article is not usually advised, but one neutral got it right - the club operated like an old boys club for too long.

Failure to bring in the right executives and inculcate a performance culture off the pitch will see us suffer.

If we stay up, and that means the outside investment or sale materialises, and they bring in proper management at C-level, then we may see change, but it will be a slow process.

And something tells me the teary one won't go quietly.

Ben King
19 Posted 24/05/2023 at 11:35:25
Dave #17,

Spot on. What you said was a valid comparison and reference: you only shared a similar example of someone claiming to be unaware of something.

It's akin to the way Gary Lineker was misquoted with his reference to speech in 1930s Germany. But in order to discredit what he was saying, then people said he compared the current Government to the Nazis. He didn't.

I absolutely hate people misquoting (often deliberately).


For my money, the writer should have shared some analysis but instead stuck with emotion. Some people love emotion ahead of logic or analysis. I don't… but each to their own.

Barry Rathbone
20 Posted 24/05/2023 at 11:59:27
A "woe is me" piece by yet another Evertonian bewildered by the descent from historical greatness to the point of oblivion.

Since the sale of Alan Ball, our recruitment has been mostly abysmal – buying crap at top dollar is not a new thing in this parish.

The Kenwright - Moyes era rectified the situation by accepting our place was not at the top table, creating an unholy contract with match-going Evertonians that stability at the expense of not challenging was acceptable.

From there on in, we were doomed.

The Martinez revolution was a non-starter from the get-go – massive funds are required to bolster squads with quality every year and he was picking up the likes of Aiden McGeady!!

Once Martinez was binned and the dead hand of Moshiri gripped this club, every decision became a bullet wound. Now the financial burden of a new stadium has effectively put us into penury for the foreseeable.

That unholy contract followed by Moshiri is the root cause of our ills – easily satisfied fans and a mad Iranian… what a combo.

Dave Abrahams
21 Posted 24/05/2023 at 12:13:50
Barry (20),

How did we get into the massive financial mess that Moshiri cleared up when he bought the club? Who created the mess? Did they happen by chance?

Wre were £20 million in credit when Kenwright bought the club; we owned Goodison Park and Bellefield training ground. Goodison was mortgaged up to the hilt; Bellefield was sold, Finch Farm had been bought, sold, then leased back for the next 20 years.

Moshiri has paid for a new ground, on hold; his mistake was having a friend guarding the club in his place. If you think Chairman Bill is blameless since Moshiri took over, you might be in a minority but maybe you can explain why Kenwright is blameless? I'll listen if you can.

Andrew Ellams
22 Posted 24/05/2023 at 12:15:03
Dave @ 11.

We also lost at Grimsby in the same competition in 1979.

Dave Abrahams
23 Posted 24/05/2023 at 12:34:53
Andrew (22),

Yes, true enough, if that was the game Viner was referring to, I apologise to him.

It's still a one-sided article that blames Moshiri and gives his friend a free ride.

Mike Allison
24 Posted 24/05/2023 at 12:46:21
Where we go from here is just to be sensibly and sustainably run for a bit. We’ve blown our chance to break the top six. We need to build, slowly and gradually, by making sensible transfers of buy low, sell high. There are so many examples around Europe of clubs getting this right that it blows my mind that we’ve not even tried.

We need 3-4 new forward players this summer, I hope to God we’re talking to the right free agents and youngsters. The potential loss of Isaac Price and the favouring of Maupay over Simms is a huge sap on my optimism about this though. We’ll probably sign a few more centre backs and sell Branthwaite.

Christine Foster
25 Posted 24/05/2023 at 12:49:55
Dave, people have short memories. The inability to make the club commercially viable resulted in the sale of all its assets just to pay the bills. A credit card borrowing mentality until it was maxed out followed by our good financial wizards, Messers Green and Earl, offshore tax-haven loans that were the fore runner for the reasons we are where we are today.

Kenwright not only never had the money, he never had the business acumen to take the opportunities that others did or recruit the best management teams. He blagged his way till he found Moshiri, then spent his money in the belief it would cure all ills.

The world's most expensive patsy, Moshiri was never really interested in running the club, leaving Kenwright to it. Moshiri was stupid; Kenwright allowed incompetence to happen running the club.

One final question: How could a Chairman and Financial Director fall foul of the Premier League' s Profitability and Sustainability rRles by such a huge amount and not do anything?

Why did we get in that mess when a Finance Director, CEO and Chairman should have been all over this like a rash. That's a perfect example of where the incompetence has been and, if we are relegated, that will be a question that underlines why we may have to even question our survival.

Finn Taylor
26 Posted 24/05/2023 at 13:32:02
Viner comes off as a fair-weather fan – only interested in it for the glory. Goodison, the team, never loses its magic to me, ever; I am sure a lot of people on here feel the same.

His film reviews aren't up to much either.

Perhaps we are in such a financial mess because we have tried to compete, we had to keep up with the Jones????

Kieran Kinsella
27 Posted 24/05/2023 at 13:39:13

Sorry for the inappropriate analogy. I had literally just read that Himmler piece before switching to ToffeeWeb so I posted before engaging brain fully.

Barry Rathbone
28 Posted 24/05/2023 at 13:47:13
Dave @21,

What Kenwright and Moyes "achieved" with the collusion of accepting fans was the assurance that non-challenging safety would always provide us with enough cheap functional players to turn a profit. If the shit really hit the fan, we could sell Pienaar, Arteta, Baines, Fellaini, Rooney, Rodwell, Lescott etc to cover debts.

That all changed with Moshiri. He dabbled in matters he was clueless about and spent millions on crap, leaving us with a squad of hardly any valuable assets. Then he went ahead with an ill-timed new build which will kill us stone dead unless he sells to big oil.

From that point of view, it could be argued Kenwright did a decent job but the caveat is always acceptance of Everton as mid-table no-hopers. Not for me, I'm afraid.

Peter Carpenter
29 Posted 24/05/2023 at 13:56:49

I think Viner is genuine. I've read lots of his stuff and he's followed Everton for a long time, so that has include lots of crap times too. A friend of Bill? Well, we can't hold that against him.

And on the subject of the Nazis, can we please have the effing siren turned off for good. What the fuck does it add? Let's hear the fans instead of that appalling sound. I absolutely hate it.

Martin Mason
30 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:07:55
Barry @28,

So what are your proposals to turn Everton first from a Bottom 3 team to mid-table and then into a top team given that you are an armchair fan with no power whatsoever?

Ian Pilkington
31 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:08:32
This article was totally devalued by the writers's failure to condemn the root cause of our malaise.

Admitting to being a friend of Kenwright for 20 years sums up Mr Viner's Evertonian credentials rather well.

Finn Taylor
32 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:09:11
Peter @29,

I have read Viner's book on us, Looking for The Toffees, and I loved it. I don't doubt his credentials - if anything, it's my increasing anger at what's coming and those who have the power to say something honest about what's gone on.

Barry @28 seems to be espousing the most accurate assessment of what has unraveled over the past 10 years.

Kenwright has always run the club from London, leaving his toffee munchkins to do all else up here – but what do they do?

Let's face it, though, since the inception of the Premier League, we have been largely awful, except for a few years when Moyes had built a half-decent side.

John Daley
33 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:16:25
I don't know Brian Viner's views on Bill Kenwright here and now but back in 2004 he had this to say about the ‘shrewd' operator:

“Even Kenwright's manifest devotion to Everton earns him the sneering nickname "Blue Bill" from one or two columnists on the website ToffeeWeb, this from fans who damned the previous owner Peter Johnson because he was a Liverpool fan.”

“I should declare an interest here: I know Kenwright pretty well and like him enormously. It is true that the great impresario should take some responsibility for the fiasco in the summer, when a superstar and a chief executive exited stage left, while the spotlight fell on directors grappling for power.

"But he didn't deserve to be vilified – let alone spat at, which he was. Nor can his critics have it both ways, lambasting him for the bad that has happened and disassociating him from the good. After all, Kenwright it was who identified Moyes as the man who could make Everton a force again, and increasingly it looks as if no football club chairman ever made a shrewder decision.”

Peter Carpenter
34 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:23:28
Right, bring Viner in for questioning; and anyone else suspected of saying anything nice about the old slug, ever!
(That could be a long line - let's move on, the future's coming!)
Martin Mason
35 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:30:05
Barry @28,

I'd like to help the poor Everton fans who keep us down by accepting being mid-table (I wish?) by helping them understand what they can do to not accept the situation.

Can you help them by explaining that you top fans do to not accept it? How do you feel that you personally have changed the club's fortunes from the top of the Moyes tenure to now?

I'd love to know how I can support the club better.

Kieran Kinsella
36 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:35:58
John Daley,

Viner on Twitter today:

"BK is a friend and I will not publicly kick him. Moshiri has been the overwhelming problem."

Dale Self
37 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:36:12
Was that the fucking title? I guess using ‘seems’ gives some cover. Since I refuse to read it after that intro I will just say people need to speak for themselves about their concerns and he may well have. You see as Bill’s friend I think I'm free to interpret that as Bill’s magic is irretrievably gone’.

Anyone want to buy a Joseph Technicolor coat? It is going for a knockdown price? Anyone? Ok just send it to Viner.

Dale Self
38 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:40:53
Oh yeah, and the hagiography begins.
Kevin Molloy
39 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:48:49
So Bill thinks he can stick around for seven extra years as Chairman, and still point the finger at soft arse at the catastrophic running of the club now that it's time to pay the piper?

Sorry, mate, you are front and centre.

Dale Self
40 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:49:24
People still read Twitter?
Finn Taylor
41 Posted 24/05/2023 at 14:50:16
Wasn't it outgoing Walter Smith who recommended Moyes? Kenwright appointed Martinez. Remember that press conference and the Champions League comment? Even Martinez knew it was crass.
Martin Mason
42 Posted 24/05/2023 at 15:02:41
Bill Kenwright has to take 100% responsibility for the situation that the club is in now and there are no mitigating factors for him. Having done what he said and got us the right investment, as Chairman he's managed to devastate the club first via farce and now possible tragedy.

I maintain hope that we can avoid relegation Sunday but what then next season?

Jay Harris
43 Posted 24/05/2023 at 15:11:27
Au contraire, Moshiri has been the saviour – not the villain – because, without his money, we were sinking like a stone under the weight of Kenwright's pals and their offshore interest of around £13M a year plus whatever else pushed unexplained operating costs to over £20M. (They were £1M a year when Kenwright took over.)

Does anyone not believe that the new stadium on the banks of the Mersey would have been a cowshed in Kirkby if Kenwright had his way originally?

Moshiri's only fault was that he allowed Kenwright to stay in charge of the club – a mistake made by a number of rich people Kenwright had conned before.

As Dave Abrahams said, Kenwright inherited an asset-rich club and took less than 2 years to turn that into a liability and then appointed a Championship manager who totally undid all that Moyes had built up.

Finn Taylor
44 Posted 24/05/2023 at 15:15:10
I agree that Moshiri's money has kept us afloat - it's allowed us to tread water and get the stadium built.

Has anyone read Sam Wallace's piece on us in today's Telegraph? It's behind a paywall.

Eric Myles
45 Posted 24/05/2023 at 15:23:44
Dale #40, now that Tucker has gone to that platform, a whole lot more will be reading / watching it.
Kieran Kinsella
46 Posted 24/05/2023 at 15:51:40

It really has nothing new in The Telegraph piece.

Just recounts the P&S investigation into Everton, how other clubs are upset about a possible rules breach. How parachute payments work.

That is about it. Fluff.

Will Mabon
47 Posted 24/05/2023 at 16:04:18
Dale, Hagi retired years ago.
Dale Self
48 Posted 24/05/2023 at 16:10:37
Touché, Will. And you got me there, Eric, but will he not attract or chase off more than his readership?
Ian Pilkington
49 Posted 24/05/2023 at 16:10:44
Finn @46,

A 3-column article by Sam Wallace with absolutely nothing we don't already know.

Raymond Fox
50 Posted 24/05/2023 at 16:16:56
My god, have you read most of the bitter comments below the article? There are plenty of sad bitter people out there.

Whatever happens on Sunday, Everton will survive and prosper before too long – it's too much loved and supported by its fans to do otherwise.

I think the club will be sold in the near future – hopefully to somebody or persons with more brass and business acumen than Moshiri.

I can't believe that Moshiri and Kenwright will want to stay around after what has gone on this season. It's quite obvious they are not wanted at the club, especially Kenwright.

Dale Self
51 Posted 24/05/2023 at 16:22:33
Eric, it just occurred to me: Doesn't that make Twitter Tucker-friendly?

And with all the outrage over swimwear, doesn't that put a target on Elon?

Barry Rathbone
52 Posted 24/05/2023 at 17:21:19
Martin Mason @ the oddball chronicles.

You ask how can I transform the club before asserting with great glee I have no power to do so!!! Then why ask, you festering banana? Are you desperate to portray “idiot speak” as some kind of gift?

Your question about what fans en masse could do is more than a decade too late. If you had paid attention (or simply not mixed medication with alcohol), you may have noticed many of us forewarned where this would end up at the time!!!!

The Kenwright and Moyes blueprint of safety, not ambition, excused ad nauseum by a vociferous cabal, was never going to return us to our historic place at the top table and the idea other clubs would join us in standing still was delusion of the highest order.

Now get this into your thick skull: fans can do nothing to influence matters on the pitch. Only the impetus of billions from an Oil Sheikh or similar can.

ps: If you can't get your act together and ask sensible questions without spitting your dummy, I won't respond again. Your lack of reason and emotional instability make you barely coherent and ultimately tiresome.

And stop stalking me – I know I'm handsome but that's no excuse.

Ed Prytherch
53 Posted 24/05/2023 at 17:37:02
Raymond, Sunderland are an example of how hard it can be for a well supported club with a large modern stadium to get back into the top flight after going down. We should not be complacent.
David Vaughan
54 Posted 24/05/2023 at 17:45:18
As Dyche has already said, we MUST stick together. All Blues, no shades or tints. Stop squabbling. And why are we discussing opinionated has-beens like Brian Viner, for Christ's sake? In the Daily Mail! They've shown themselves to be lazy journos writing alarmist claptrap with no substance time and again. Only last week, with their volte face on a takeover, no an investment - we meant investments, honest. Come on Evertonians...guys, girls and others...onward to Sunday. TOGETHER.
Jim Lloyd
55 Posted 24/05/2023 at 17:59:21
Well said Jay (43) I think some people seem to have forgotten "Sir Phili[p Green...a good friend of Everton" the mysterious Virgin Isles loans each season, The bloke who owned that Pizza shop business, Sylvester Stallone getting rolled onto the pitch as a "Blue" ansd us selling of a proportion of our season tickets for x number of years to get a loan.
Loads more but the article in today's Daily Mail had nothing at all do do with the state of our football club. He said he was a friend of Kenwright but the article was his take on being an Evertonian, not being a friend of Kenwright. It was all about his feelings of what can happen on Sunday and how ths will leave Everton supporters, including him.
If some people think that his way of excusing Kenwright during the Moyes years.
That bit of history is right. Under Moyes apart from one season when we nearly dropped Moyes managed to get us around top six to top eight. Under Moshiri's vast money infusions, managers have mainly got us floundering.
That's all Brian Viner is saying. The rest of his article is that he is a Blue. He will be as sick as anyone other Blue will be.

My view is that Kenwright is mainly to blame for what he did (or didn't) do before Moshiri got involved and that is when he waved Bye Bye to Sheik Mansour...allegedly. He then got the man of his dreams to invest in the club...who knew little about running a football club and a power struggle ensued and we are paying for it. All; the other issues as well, I haven't gone into. The Kings Dock, The money's in the post! Sir Philip Greene (our Good Friend) "We've had some good times" and more.

All that is nothing at all to do with this article written by and Evertonian who's a friend of Kenwright. So what. Or are we getting so like the wokey mobs that we crucify by association? I thought he spoke well of the club he supports
Jay Harris and Raymond Fox, good posts. Even Martin Mason! well said.

John Raftery
57 Posted 24/05/2023 at 18:31:05
Peter (29) I agree with your point about the siren. The novelty value of a few years ago has gone. I would say the same about the volume of the pre-match and half-time music. There was a time when fans created the atmosphere of their own volition. Now everything is drowned out by a deafening cacophony. It is artificial and at 101 decibels a potential breach of health and safety legislation.
Phil Wood
59 Posted 24/05/2023 at 19:10:46
Decent read by an Evertonian even if certain events are inaccurate such as the loss to Grimsby.
Thanks Brian.

Barry Hesketh
60 Posted 24/05/2023 at 19:33:38
Defeat at Grimsby Town certainly did happen, I think it was a guy by the name of Mike Brolly who put us out of the League Cup in 1979, which is the period that Viner was referring to, of course most will remember Everton battering Grimsby at Goodison in 1984, but the Mariners spoiling our ten game winning run with a winner in the 90th minute or so, scored by Paul Wilkinson who we purchased and who scored the winner for Everton in the derby later in the season.

If Chairman Bill, hadn't have found a 'billionaire' at the time he did, Everton would already be broke and possibly would have been playing outside the premier league for a few years already, and there would have been no new stadium on the horizon either. Hopefully, Monday will see us continue to play in the top-flight and the stadium will be fully funded to completion.

Paul Ferry
61 Posted 24/05/2023 at 20:08:33
Surprised at you Dave A (11). Why would anyone want to put Viner's article “in the bin”? It is written straight from the heart and I for one feel his pain and anguish and bask in his memories of former times.

His full disclosure on Chairman Bill is to be admired and sometimes, as in Harold Pinter's plays, silence is a deeply significant device. His view that Moshiri is ahead of our narcissistic chairman in the blame-game is held by others. I don't share it. It's a question of perspective for me. His mate Kenwright is the biggest factor in our long-term decline; Moshiri is the biggest factor in this last seven-year shocking slump.

Nor is he “a fair-weather fan”, Finn Taylor, unless rarely missing a game from Herefordshire is a definition of “a fair-weather fan”. Some of the trivial reflex comments on this thread tell us rather more about the poster than the subject. I don't know Viner, by the way, I follow his writing and media. I seem to remember hearing that the ‘Brian Viner Interview” in The Independent is the longest running weekly interview column in the history of UK journalism. I might be wrong on that. He is a serious journalist who just happens – to his cost on this thread – to be a devoted Evertonian.

Anyone who has read Viner's wonderful book Looking for the Toffees on the late-1970s feels instinctively and warmly that he is a dyed-in-the-wool blue who loves us. Yes I was there at most of what he writes about and so I feel pretty partial, but jeez does he capture those times for teenage me when supporting Everton, yes Gordon Lee's Everton, was pure joy.

Sorry to head off on another tangent but hearing Brighton's DOF say that his/their main aim is to get players in the door “before we need them” is crushing having watched the Moshiri years of transfer splurges.

We will stay up. In some ways I'm more frightened about the summer than Sunday, and our urgent need for root-and-branch reform in nearly all aspects of the club so that we are not in this position one year from now.

Keep believing everyone!

Give them big shouts and songs from me Rob Halligan!


Ray Roche
62 Posted 24/05/2023 at 20:35:30
In addition to Paul and Finn recommending “Looking For The Toffees” I would urge anyone who has not read it to do so. An excellent read from a true Blue. You can pick a copy up from eBay or Amazon. You won’t be disappointed.
Christine Foster
63 Posted 24/05/2023 at 20:59:22
Viner makes no secret of his long friendship with Kenwright and his article references that but refuses to be critical of him, instead follows it up via Twitter by absolving him of any blame and putting it all at the door of Moshiri.

It's painfully naive to be frank, ignoring ( like so many late to the party) the obvious pre Moshiri catalogue of incompetence that almost bankrupted the club. The article for me, sounded a little like groundwork of a post Moshiri Everton still run by Kenwright. Viner is obviously a passionate Evertonian, but like so many, has never bothered to worry about how the club is run until apparently suddenly, we are relegation fodder. There is no sudden demise, quite the opposite, a thousand cuts, mostly self inflicted. It's a shame the article doesn't ask why and how it's happened rather than an observation that it has.

Dave Abrahams
64 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:16:30
Paul (61), Yes I get your point about silence can mean a lot, he wasn’t silent about Mr.Moshiri was he, why blacken one man and ignore the wrongs of the other,it’s got to be a balanced view of why we’re are in such a desperate state.

I had never heard of him as a writer or critic (He could write a book on Kenwright never mind a column). I’m leaving that article in the bin Paul!!

John Williams
65 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:30:07
Shame on anyone who buys or reads the Daily Mail.
A Right Wing Newspaper set up in Bermuda to evade paying
UK Taxes.
Owners living in Monaco using a Non Dom Status and even
consider them to be French.
Do not want the UK in Europe promoting Brexit, yet living in
the EU.
Tony Abrahams
66 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:35:26
JUST FUCK OFF - would make a very good title if he did Dave - although I’ve got a picture in my head of Brian - played by chairman Bill - asking how shall I fuck off? - whilst blame it on the boogie is playing in the background.

The one consistent feature is The Daily Mail - and when Everton finally change their board - maybe Moshiri will tell everyone - it wasn’t me, it was the other three?

All turned quiet - I’ve been here before - a lonely boy - hiding behind the front door - my friends have all gone home - there’s my toy gun on the floor.

Mike Gaynes
67 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:38:45
Kieran #27, fair enough, mate. Appreciate it.

Dave #17, I'm not censoring anybody, just expressing an opinion. The gent I expressed it to is a longtime TW friend and he conceded the point. I'll continue to express my feelings. If you don't care for that, scroll past my comments.

Dave #11, you should read Viner's book Searching for the Toffees. It's a lovely tribute to some of his favorite childhood Blues heroes, and the interviews he did once he found them are both entertaining and informative. He's a great Evertonian.

And for what it's worth, I would remind anybody blaming Kenwright 100% for our current situation that it was Moshiri who hired Benitez over Bill's objections. That hire was the single biggest factor in moving us from midtable struggler to desperate relegation candidate two years in a row.

Barry Rathbone
68 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:45:16
I can't believe the notion that, despite never being in trouble akin to these last few seasons under Kenwright, the present debacles under Moshiri are down to Kenwright!!

I know people hate him for installing the mediocrity chip at Goodison Park but this really is tenuous supposition dressed up as fact.

It's a cult think

Ernie Baywood
69 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:50:54
Not sure where the writer is going with this. It feels like he ran out of time and had to submit.

I don't care that he doesn't aim criticism at his friend – and I'll acknowledge his integrity in admitting why. Bill Kenwright has a lot of friends in the media doing his work who do not disclose such friendships.

He doesn't really aim much at Moshiri either. Just comments that the club is failing under his tenure, which is objectively fair. Plus a dig at where the money might have been coming from, which is less objective but probably true.

After the long fluff sections, he poses an existential question. Then wraps it up in a couple of sentences with the conclusion that it'll probably be alright. Doesn't exactly pull at the blue heart strings.

Christine Foster
70 Posted 24/05/2023 at 21:57:05

I cannot believe the notion that, despite the lies, incompetence and lack of commercial viability under Kenwright, all the present debacles under Kenwright's Chairmanship are down to Moshiri!

I know people have never understood that he never had the money or sense to take up any opportunity the Premier League offered, while others did, but to ignore the facts as pure supposition is fantasy.

It's a cult I think..

Perspective... always a leveller.

Christine Foster
71 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:04:13
Just listening to the end of conversations after City's game with Brighton, the commentators lauding Brighton of a club thats perfectly run from top to bottom.
Brighton.. I ask you.. here is a club who did it well and did it right, compare that to us, a club who got it wrong and just compounded the fuck ups...
Chris Leyland
72 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:04:52
Mike, the appointment of Benitez didn't turn us into relegation fodder per se. The plug had been pulled on the finances for signings immediately after he took over and he was allowed to sign Gray for £2M and Townsend on a free. He then brought Rondon in on a free too. That was it.

Barry, the rot had set years earlier, when Kenwright, desperate to hold onto his trainset, wouldn't entertain any sale that didn't let him stay in the limelight. He's a thespian and loves the attention. He turned us into ‘plucky little Everton' punching above our weight.

From Kings Dock and his refusal to allow Paul Gregg to put the £30M in, to the Fortress Sports Fund's ‘cheque in the post', through to the "Magnificent Seventh" DVD, to the Destination Kirkby debacle, he had presided over turning one of the England's biggest clubs into an also-ran and then into perennial relegation strugglers.

Managed decline and suppressing expectations, with Moyes, the glass ceiling headbutter, at the helm for 11 years. Moshiri and others are certainly not blameless either but there is one common, ever-present factor in everything that has happened – and it's a certain theatre impresario.

Dale Self
73 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:08:33
If Viner claims Moshiri was the problem in a post this contradicts Moshiri’s account that Bill took most of the football operations Does Viner address that in the article? He could address that without ‘publicly kicking’ Bill.
Christine Foster
74 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:08:38
Mike, our present situation was not down to one man, Moshiri or Kenwright – they equally share the blame. But no-one can deny the club was on its knees in debt and badly run before Moshiri came on the scene.

Kenwright should have gone when Moshiri came in. Moshiri should have recruited a competent board to run the club. He didn't, and the blame for our present predicament is shared without doubt.

Tony Abrahams
75 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:12:57
I personally think that it's a fact that Moshiri, “was” Bill Kenwright's Billionaire the man who was allegedly retiring at seventy, .

I disagree with you that it was Rafa Benitez who turned Everton from mid-table struggler to desperate relegation candidates, Mike. He was definitely a toxic appointment, but I think when Ancelotti decided to tell Real Madrid that, if they were struggling financially, they could get him for nothing, then the writing was already on the wall.

Not that it matters because we are where we are, but I think any manager who wasn't allowed to spend any money, then lost the spine of his team after a fairly bright start to the new season, would have seen his team go rapidly downhill.

But kudos to Bill Kenwright anyway, because I'm sure he didn't want to get rid of James Rodriguez either, even though things were already pointing towards us becoming a not financially viable football club.

Kieran Kinsella
76 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:14:18
Dave 64,

Exactly. Selective outrage. Moshiri seems to be fair game for everyone but woe betide anyone pointing a finger at Bill.

If Viner feels uncomfortable about discussing his mate, he could have just declined the opportunity to write the story. In reality, it seems as Christine alludes to that Bill's PR machine is in full flow after his disastrous open letter to fans.

First, we had Bill's other mate, Dominic King, with his "poor old Sharpey" story which sounded an awful lot like Bill's open letter. Now we have Viner with the focus on Moshiri, a point he further emphasized on Twitter.

No doubt we will see a nice piece from Prentice over the weekend lauding Bill. Wouldn't be surprised, whatever the outcome on Sunday, for Moyes to offer a few words of support too for the "Greatest Evertonian." All of it is orchestrated and disingenuous.

Ernie Baywood
77 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:23:19
Our overall fall from grace... Well that responsibility can be shared among a decent cast of names over a 30+ year period.

Our current relegation fight stems from poor governance, poor recruitment, poor transfers, poor management and overall a basket case of a football club over the last few years. That's on the owner.

That doesn't absolve Kenwright, just as it doesn't absolve Thelwell. But it's the owner who is accepting of these standards – both still have the jobs they are spectacularly failing in.

Robert Tressell
78 Posted 24/05/2023 at 22:52:15
Ernie, it's impossible to judge people like Brands and Thelwell given they have been tasked with operating in such a dysfunctional environment. What is clear is that the mess we're in goes much deeper than a few half-cocked experiments with the DoF model and some failed managerial appointments. The whole club is a mess and has been for 30 years. I just want to get the win we need and see Dyche and Thelwell go about some careful strategic recruitment this summer, hopefully under new ownership. It's not going to be a quick turnaround though. We have a lot of ground to catch up.
Barry Rathbone
79 Posted 24/05/2023 at 23:09:13
Christine @70,

Surely the issue with your version is all your allegations have been ever present during the Kenwright reign but without the disasters. They only appeared with Moshiri

If changing the text gives you a different perspective, I'm sure that helps you, but it does nothing to alter reality based on fact.


Barry Rathbone
80 Posted 24/05/2023 at 23:11:39
Chris @72,

I agree with most of what you say but the debacles since Moshiri have been unprecedented. Unequivocally the blame lies with him.

Laurie Hartley
81 Posted 24/05/2023 at 23:53:17
The board and the owner have to take their share of responsibility for our current situation but my gut feeling is that the root cause is much deeper than that. Brian’s post # 13 has me thinking that it is a cultural problem within the club itself.

In the 1960’s we had the complete package, a rich owner, a top manager, top players, and 50+ thousand rabid Evertonians at every home game.

Apart from a brief period in the 1980’s when we had the players, the manager, and the fans, who rose above the problems within the club, we have not been at the races since the beginning of the 70’s.

The mentality and culture of any organisation is heavily influenced from the top down. So my view is it’s been a decline over a 50 year period.

I think our owner has made mistakes but if we are going to have a dig at him for them we have to acknowledge his determination to build the stadium. The reason that project is going so well is because he appointed the right man in Colin Chong. Someone who is obviously good at his job and knows what that job is. When the stadium is completed he should be retained by the owner. Good people are hard to find.

He may very well sell out but, if as I suspect, he want’s to finish what he started he will have to identify and appoint board members and a “change manager” CEO to introduce a new culture and mentality from the top to the bottom of the club. In other words Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.

Martin Mason
82 Posted 24/05/2023 at 00:01:46
Barry @52,

Sorry, mate, but I have to clock you down as an acceptor of mediocrity.

Don Alexander
83 Posted 25/05/2023 at 00:26:50
"Now that the magic seems so irretrievably lost, Everton fans are hurt, bewildered and angry"........

Neville Chamberlain rivalled this type of tripe with his 1939 claim when he came back from a personal meeting with Hitler with a piece of bog-roll in his hand claiming that it guaranteed peace.

Yeah, right.

"Now" is, by years, grossly inaccurate.

"The Magic" disappeared in the 1980's to any sighted/sentient fan. The current decision makers have now buried it too deep even for Indiana Jones to find.

"Hurt/Angry" is akin to someone today realising for the first time, after having repeatedly voted for the lying, self-serving total bastard Boris Johnson, that "they may have made a mistake" - not that the cretinous Brian Viner has that scintilla of accountability (as a Mail journo though, how could he?).

"Bewildered" only describes people with a lesser IQ than an amoeba.

Other than that it's bob-on........ NOT.

Mike Gaynes
84 Posted 25/05/2023 at 00:37:10
Chris, Tony and Christine... heartily agree that the rot isn't down to just one person, and frankly I've long advocated that blame permeates the entire organization, exempting only some of the players. But Benitez injected poison into the club's bloodstream and the desperation followed.

I still believe that no single moment contributed quite as much to our current situation as the moment Moshiri handed Rafa a contract.

To those singling out the word "bewildered" in the headline of the article and blaming Viner for it, know that article writers don't write their own headlines. Their editors do.

Also, the last word in the world I would assign to the gentlemanly Viner is "cretinous", so given the amoebic-IQ source of that insult, it's nice to know that irony lives and thrives on this site.

Christine Foster
85 Posted 25/05/2023 at 01:11:12
Barry, they are facts, not allegations.

We went from one disaster to the next well before Moshiri entered. Kenwright had to borrow the money to buy the club, meaning, simply, he could not fund it. To do so:

He sold off or mortgaged every asset we had, the ground, the training facility,
He loaned money against future season ticket sales,
He got into bed with Messer's Green and Earl,
He borrowed money through them from shady, high-interest offshore loans with extortionate interest payments,
He tried to convince fans that Goodison was a health and safety risk to sway a vote to Kirkby and a £50M windfall coming from Tesco that didn't exist,
The 24/7 search for a new owner that wasn't,
Stifling shareholders and cancelling AGMs,

And much much more – all before Moshiri.

None of the above are allegations, Barry, they are facts. Disastrous consequences for the club even before Moshiri.

As I said, responsibility for failures since Moshiri came on board are down to the owner and the board who have the direct responsibility to run the club for the benefit of all shareholders, to make sound financial decisions based on operating cash flow and profit and loss. As Chairman, failures to do so are Kenwright's responsibility.

Sound management has been missing for some 25 years or more, but the disasters you allude to were made by owner and board who failed to govern correctly. It didn't just happen with Moshiri.

Don Alexander
86 Posted 25/05/2023 at 01:18:23
Mike, as a Jew you have persistently taken offence about your perception of any reference to "Nazi-ism" in any "mere" football post – and I respect the appalling reality of anyone who fully accepts the truth about the Holocaust, as I assure you I do. (I've also personally offered you and your wife my full support in the COVID pandemic as it affected Wuhan where she lived.)

However, you live in a country where Nazi-ism is alive and well in the persona of Trump and his thick-as-bricks fans (and I respect that you abhor him, as I do).

Over here, Gary Lineker recently went public citing right-wing pronouncements (not their end results) by politicians as very reminiscent of 1930s Germany, and we all know what the appalling cost was in WW2 given such pronouncements in the '30s.

In the UK, we have a rampantly pro-right-wing daily newspaper, namely the Mail (there are others marginally less strident). Viner writes for it to his own advantage. They profit from him.

You can bet your life that Moshiri, Kenwright, Earl, Green and those now in hoc to them for an opulent salary, such as the totally talentless board, are devotees of the Mail (if they have the ability to read, that is).

I don't want to criticise any other Everton fan (aside from the now disappeared Darren Hind, I suppose).

I'll leave criticism of fellow fans to you and others, but it's in no way what I adhere to after 60 years of unstinting allegiance to our club.

Yom tov.

Give me notice of your second-ever visit to our home!

Kieran Kinsella
87 Posted 25/05/2023 at 03:42:56

Watch out, mate – Viner reads ToffeeWeb as I discovered when he twice Tweeted about my post at number 2 today!

Paul Ferry
88 Posted 25/05/2023 at 07:01:04
Yes, Kieran, Viner did refer to your post at number 2 - an appropriate designation if ever there was one - in a couple of tweets. You seem to be quite chuffed about this.

However, he rather ridiculed you quite successfully in the sort of restrained and well-worded style that was a million miles away from your post at number 2. You came/come out from all of this quite poorly despite the crowing tone of your post at number 67.

Hugs from the Midwest, Paul.

Danny O’Neill
89 Posted 25/05/2023 at 07:25:01

He can call me out all he wants. I'd gladly talk to him.

That's not me being confrontational, nor am I doubting his passion for the club.

But I would gladly give him my opinion if he is reading.

Mal van Schaick
90 Posted 25/05/2023 at 07:41:11
Mismanagement beyond belief from the Owner, Chairman and the Board, ably assisted by crap Directors of Football and appointments of poor managers.

It's amazing how some authors position themselves and conveniently leave some people out of their appraisal of our situation. Why is that?

Obviously survival in the Premier League is massive for this club; if we stay in the Premier League, those responsible for the demise of our club had better listen to the fans and the manager, because we cannot sustain another season in the Premier League with the quality of some of the players that we have at the moment. Yet another rebuild, with financial constraints, is on the cards.

Tony Abrahams
91 Posted 25/05/2023 at 07:44:41
Fair enough, Mike, but you know what I'm going to say, mate. Everton has been full of “nepotistic poison” ever since Bill Kenwright amazingly got us punching above our weight, and for this we only have ourselves to blame.

Divide and conquer, has always been the main tactic used by Bill Kenwright so nothing has really changed except a lot more people are now wise to his self-centered actions as he desperately tries to cling on to something he's losing.

Danny O’Neill
92 Posted 25/05/2023 at 08:00:43
You hit a nail, Tony.

Divide and conquer the fan base.

We don't always have, or need to have, the same opinions, but increasingly, the support base is overwhelmingly united in its feelings.

And that's not me talking from ToffeeWeb. It's what I hear daily talking to family and friends. And what I witness every single match I am fortunate enough to attend.

Our support for those players on the pitch will not waiver, and it doesn't, but we are not divided anymore in wanting change.

We've got our short-term fate in our hands on Sunday. That is down to the manager, players and supporters, who have been left on their own. Don't start me on that.

But then our long-term fate has to be sorted in the summer. And that starts with a clear-out of those absent seats in the Main Stand.

Dave Abrahams
93 Posted 25/05/2023 at 09:36:03
I Wrote a long reply to Mike Gaynes post last night, it has been answered by a few anyway, in the end I never posted it because I wrote my piece about Viner’s article yesterday morning and a couple of replies to other posters.

At the end of the day I realised that the article and subsequent posts were taking us away from other Everton fans urging us to to concentrate on the main object for the last game of the season is Everton staying up and plenty of Bluenoses have been doing exactly that, whether Mr. Viner’s article is good, bad or indifferent he is an Evertonian with an opinion about the state of the club, let’s leave it at that I’m only interested, at the moment, in Everton FC’s survival in the premier league and existence as a going concern.

Come on you Blues let’s get those three points on Sunday.

Jim Lloyd
94 Posted 25/05/2023 at 09:40:32
I wrote a long piece about who's to blame for our parlous state, but scrubbed it.

I liked the article, I saw it as a Blue seeing where we are and dreading what might happen. Like all of us are doing.

I think this is common to us all. Who we blame for the mess is a subject for endless debate and hopefully positive action by those who have the power to do so.

Alex Gray
95 Posted 25/05/2023 at 09:50:27
I sort of disagree, Jim. It was ultimately Rafa that caused us to lose Digne and James, both our most creative players. We replaced Digne with Mykolenko and whilst James was on high wages, releasing a few of the deadwood would've made that up.

Moshiri is ultimately to blame though. It was a ticking time bomb and, whilst I believe Rafa was supported early on, it was a ticking time bomb and everyone knew it.

The season before, under Carlo, whilst we imploded towards the end of the season, there was certainly a feel-good factor around the club. After he left, the next appointment was vital.

Rafa completely divided the club and we haven't really been the same since. I also believe the drop in players' form and confidence started under Rafa and that isn't a shock.

Ultimately, the blame is always with the owner and the board. They make the calls and live or die by them. Hopefully MSP have the hands-on approach that the rags claim they want because I fail to see how they could run us any worse than currently.

Alex Gray
96 Posted 25/05/2023 at 09:51:34
ps: Tony nailed it with the divide-and-conquer tactics by Bill and the board. Tory behaviour.
Jim Lloyd
97 Posted 25/05/2023 at 09:58:35
ps: Just seen your post, Tony. I agree, Sunday is our major concern right now.
Martin Mason
98 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:02:17
There are lots of interesting accusations made above concerning Bill Kenwright and what he did and didn't do and why. Much of it is part fact or otherwise has some credibility but much of it is myth and opinion and opinion is not fact.

This is not a defence of Bill Kenwright because his appalling record for most of his tenure speaks for itself but surely we're above gossip and fabrication when that's what it is?

One thing that we seem unable to do is ask questions such as "Why?"; "What were the alternatives?" etc. I'd be very interested to find the truth about what really happened at Everton and what Kenwright did and why – but based on facts, not gossip and unsubstantiated opinion.

I'd could say that, as fans, we don't know the half of it, but that is a gross overestimation.

Dave Lynch
99 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:03:04
Moshiri was blindsided by Kenwright.

He swallowed his bullshit and let him keep hold of the reins; meanwhile, Kenwright spunked his money up the wall in an attempt to make himself the greatest Evertonian on earth.

The man has no values (Kenwright, that is) he has recently...well you all know what he's tried to do to save his skin, but thankfully he's shot himself in the foot.

His latest trick of employing DBB as "Chairman" though and then trying to blame "her" for the state of the club is abhorrent, she is/was out of her depth and I'm convinced he knew this and wanted a patsy.

I hope to god, if we survive on Sunday, there is no pitch invasion. The FA will points deduct us in a heartbeat and Billy Boy will jump all over that and blame the fans... again.

Dave Williams
100 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:03:26
Well said Dave #93.

Let's focus on Sunday – nothing else matters til after the game!

Andy Crooks
101 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:04:51
For me, the appointment of Benitez is rivalled only by the sale of Alan Ball, as the biggest shock I have received from Everton.
Stan Grace
102 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:09:33
Can I presume from all this that Woodward and Bernstein were not on friendly terms with Richard Nixon?
Andrew Clare
103 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:12:08
The most disappointing thing for me was the day that Howard Kendall left us for Bilbao.

Hopefully that won't be superceded by relegation on Sunday.

Jim Lloyd
104 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:27:28
Agreed,on both points, Andrew.


A lot of what is aimed at Kenwright is fact. Because it isn't written down, doesn't mean it's not true. You should talk to some people who know that there is factual support for some of his little manouvres.

Paul Hewitt
105 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:31:08
Andrew. Not a chance are we going down.
John Williams
106 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:36:52
Blaming Kenwright for blind-siding Moshiri is utter rubbish.

Moshiri is the same as Al Capon's Accountant: there to launder dirty money. If the club was sold for nothing, it will not change his or his bosses, it wasn't their money in the first case.

You could blame Kenwright and the board for seeing the £-signs and thinking this is salvation, but then so did a large proportion of Everton supporters.

So a great number of people are to blame for this mess – including people who make comments on this forum.

Barry Rathbone
107 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:51:32
Christine @85,

We never had catastrophes of this magnitude under Kenwright – that really is an unassailable fact.

Look, I get you want to criticise him and there are reasons to do so but this epoch of disaster is not one of them; we face oblivion because something dramatically changed.

Kenwright took over in 1999 and appointed two managers in 17 years. Moshiri arrived in 2016 and has been through six already. Add in the catastrophe that is the DOF model (he's now on his 3rd) and it's clear to any fair-minded individual where the blame lies.

Steve Brown
108 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:53:45
Barry @ 79,

You characterise others' arguments as "tenuous supposition dressed up as fact." In contrast, you claim your arguments are "logic" and "reality based on fact."

In your head, your inner narrative may appear as logic and fact. To the rest of the world, it is just opinion.

And, I respect Christine's opinions more.

Barry Rathbone
109 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:56:48
Steve @108,

It is fact we were never in this position under Kenwright to infer or say otherwise is utter delusion.

Sorry, but you're just wrong.

Mike Hayes
110 Posted 25/05/2023 at 10:58:07
So if Viner reads comments on ToffeeWeb, is he blind to the posts against Kenwright?

None as blind as those that don't want to see or as deaf as those who don't want to hear. 🤷

Steve Brown
111 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:01:36
Does anyone truly believe that the timing of the Dominic King and Brian Viner articles was coincidental? Pretty naive.

They appeared in the same newspaper 2-3 days before season-defining matches on consecutive weekends.

Someone is laying down the narrative lines with friendly and tame journos before the inquest starts into this season's debacle – relegation threatened, 3 managers in 2 seasons, dysfunctional recruitment, war declared on supporters, breaking Premier League financial rules, boardroom changes as a result of minority investment.

I wonder who it could be…?

Steve Brown
112 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:02:50
There you go again. Barry.

People aren't delusional simply because they don't agree with you.

Rein in the ego a bit.

Jim Lloyd
113 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:13:56

Who hand-picked Moshiri?

Barry Rathbone
114 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:16:21
Steve @112,

You made an assertion that was proven wrong; be man enough to admit it and park the ego.

Barry Rathbone
115 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:21:19
Jim @113,

Not sure what your point is.

If you think Kenwright should have been clairvoyant enough to spot the impending disaster of Moshiri, then shouldn't that apply to you and the majority whooping for joy at the news?

Personally, I don't think 'second sight' is a thing.

Dave Lynch
116 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:22:14
Really, John@106.

Well, I wouldn't want him to do my laundry.

He'd lose the fucking lot in the baggy (scouse term).

And by your reckoning "we" are also culpable... give me strength.

Ian Horan
118 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:37:58
Moshiri's only culpable for leaving the Chairman in position and trusting Kenwright. In essence, Moshiri left an arsonist in charge of a petrol station.

I have always wanted a Ferrari, sell my house, possibly able to buy one, can I afford to keep it maintained and fit for purpose!!! Not a chance in hell.

I believe Kenwright appears to be a high-profile carpet bagger!! Only self-serving, a good business man has both commercial and self awareness which has been shown time and time again not to be the case.

Finally no stand should bare Kenwright's name in the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock. At a push, maybe toilets – so we can all piss and shite on Kenwright like he has to our loyal fan base and club.

Ernie Baywood
120 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:46:51
Dave 99. Did you just say Kenwright employed Barrett-Baxendale as Chairman?

I can't figure out which bits of that post are some kind of joke or whether they're just completely inaccurate.

Mike Hayes
121 Posted 25/05/2023 at 11:48:11
Ian Horan - great idea 🥳
Mike Hayes
125 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:03:55
Doddy was another of those Kenwright acolytes that, if he saw him commit murder, he'd swear blind it was someone else. 🤷
Steve Brown
126 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:17:41
Sure Barry, my assertion was proved wrong.

Was it god who pointed that out to you when you were having your regular daily conversation?

Keep checking that well-thumbed thesaurus though. Look up fact, logic, and then reflect on reality.

Tony Abrahams
129 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:24:41
Bill wasn't being a clairvoyant, Barry, he was obviously waiting to find someone who would buy Everton on his terms. Although this isn't quite fact, then neither is it fact that the real owner of Everton is Usmanov.

Keep arguing away, let's forget everything else and look back with absolute joy at all the great times we have had since we last won a trophy.

I've stated it many times but, if I could take over our neighbours, and do a similar job to the one our saviour has done with us, I'd die a very, very, very happy man. And that, my friends, is an absolute fact…. Honestly.

Jim Lloyd
130 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:24:46
Barry, he wanted investment and he got it. You're right that my clairvoyant powers are not quite up to Merlin's. But we're talking about a Chairman of a football club and owner? (Not sure about that bit) but a major shareholder. He has the responsiblity to do everything in his power, to run the rule over any potential investment, and has the funds and goodwill of the club at heart.

If my poor memory serves me right, Moshiri didn't have a majority shareholding at the start, did he? Whatever decisions were made on change of managers, use of DoFs, purchase of players etc, these decisions would be passed by the board, and maybe the shareholders. So while he was/is Chairman, he is where the buck stops.

He has the board and the shareholders for support, and also to be accountable to (till he didn't like what they called him to account about and cancelled the Everton Shareholders Annual General Meetings).

So, in my humble, mere non-clairvoyant capacity, Kenwright could have stopped Moshiri from having any control that he didn't want him to have.

The fact that he didn't seems to me that, at the very least, Kenwright didn't know what he was doing as Chairman of Everton FC, and therefore was a dribbling duffer unaware of his powers and responsibilities.

Or he was fully aware… and was at the least complicit, if not guiding Moshiri, in EFC's Recruitment strategy. Hence, the mess we are in.

Raymond Fox
131 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:27:37
Kenwright won't be in charge of anything at Everton next season and I doubt Moshiri will be here as well, although that may be more protracted.

Dave Lynch
132 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:29:22
Mistake: Denise Barrett-Baxendale is CEO and director of Everton FC.

The same person who Kenwright threw under the bus when he tried to distance himself from the shitshow that is Evwerton FC.

Who employed her as a scapegoat... I wonder?

Tony Shelby
133 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:37:53
Barry's right, although most on hear prefer ToffeeWeb to be an echo-chamber rather than a platform to share diverse viewpoints.

Kenwright may or may not currently be the worst Chairman in the Premier League, or any league for that matter. It's hard to tell as the actual owner of the club - or more accurately, the front for the real owner - couldn't find his dick with both hands.

As Barry says, 17 years and only two managers, plus European football. Then the Iranian Vic Reeves and the eastern bloc's answer to Jabba the Hutt turn up and, hey fucking presto, dog shit decisions across the board, leading to our current plight (potential relegation and financial investigations).

And don't give me the "it was Kenwright wot brought them in" bollocks. Usmanov owned a 30% stake in Arsenal and Moshiri was his business associate. That's about as much due diligence as anyone needed at the time. You lot would have fellated the pair of them to get them into EFC if it had been necessary.

Everton's position as at 25th May 2023 rests squarely on the shoulders of its majority shareholder and the man that pulls the strings behind him.

But keep laying into Barry because you don't agree with his opinion. As every bully knows, that always proves how right you are...

Jim Lloyd
134 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:49:06
John Williams (106)

Is that including yourself?

Jim Lloyd
135 Posted 25/05/2023 at 12:54:51
Oops! I was getting drawn into arguing there because of some comments from fellow Blues.
Barry Rathbone
136 Posted 25/05/2023 at 13:30:02
Tony Shelby @133,

I raise a glass in your honour. Thank you.

Michael Kenrick
137 Posted 25/05/2023 at 13:47:10
Nice to see you've found another acolyte, Barry, but surely it's a bit more nuanced than piling it all on Moshiri.

But that's predicated on the old sore: What power and influence has Kenwright had over the last 7 years as Chairman of Everton FC to control, influence, dictate or affect the course of the club and the company?

Yes, Moshiri came in... but he did not take a position on the Board and, in his own words, expected to spend about 5% of his time on Everton. Maybe culpability lies somewhere 5% of his time and 100% of his money?

But to claim anything as 'fact' amongst this nonsense is surely facile and unnecessarily divisive at this precarious moment in time.

Mike Hayes
138 Posted 25/05/2023 at 13:47:36
Kenwright was the saviour we had been searching 24/7. 🙄
Kieran Kinsella
139 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:05:07
Paul Ferry,

No Paul, what he did was to ignore the point I was making about people allowing personal relationships to blind them, ignore the point I'd since conceded my choice of analogy was poor, and instead he responded to other people criticizing his defense of Bill by portraying himself as a victim.

When that didn't work, he further misrepresented what I'd said (not to him directly which was also something he misrepresented) and removed mention of the familial relationship I'd referenced and Tweeted another Tweet inferring I'd compared him to a specific individual when I had not. He threw in a few insults too.

If that passes for eloquent redress up on your sanctimonious hall monitor high-horse, then bully for you. To me, it just makes him look a lot like his deflecting victim-portraying mate.

Kieran Kinsella
140 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:21:17
Barry & Tony,

On Kenwright's watch, Moyes finished on 39 points – a record low for us at the time. He sold Rooney cheaply then finished 4th – but was that luck or judgement?

We also started one season with a midfield duo of Jagielka and Baxter while he was trying to beg money off Philip Green. He sold Arteta on deadline day, didn't replace him, then mislaid the money.

The only reason we didn't completely fall apart was that, in Moyes, he found a subservient miracle worker.

Dale Self
141 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:27:48
No whining if you go contrarian Tony Shelby and Barry. Nice show and all but don't go slamming your critics as a cult or bullies. It is their right to post a response.

By the way, once you post a floater and lose some credibility, no-one is looking for you to define the standards of posting.

Chris Leyland
142 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:30:59
Barry & Tony,

Directors run the business day to day. They are legally responsible for what goes on at the business. Their legal duties are to act in the best interests of the business and not the shareholders.

With your impassioned defence of Kenwright, who has remained a company director since making himself a very wealthy man from selling his shares to Moshiri, are you suggesting that he is not a fit and proper company director and should be investigated for failing to act on his legal and fiduciary duties of acting in the best interests of the company?

Mark Murphy
143 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:34:08
Hey Mike Hayes @125,

Did he??…….

(Maybe won't work in the written word.)

Tony Shelby
144 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:34:52
Michael (137) - But Kenwright being the beginning, middle and end of everything that is wrong at Everton is the overarching narrative on ToffeeWeb. It's seen as an inarguable fact.

Regardless of the precarious position we find ourselves in, Barry is entitled to counter this with some 'facts' of his own. What he is arguing, and there is both logic and fact contained in his argument, is that Everton had 17 years of relative stability, and success of sorts, prior to the Moshiri & Usmanov arrival. What has happened since speaks for itself.

Frankly, how anyone can use the words of Moshiri – Alisher Usmanov's closest business partner – as mitigation of his performance at the club is beyond me. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the picture with regard to their relationship and their respective influences over Everton seems pretty clear.

I frequently see unchallenged comments on TW (there's one in this thread), stating that Kenwright pulled the wool over Moshiri's eyes. That's right, a billionaire businessman, business partner to an even richer member of Putin's inner-circle, gets hoodwinked by teary-eyed luvvie, Bill Kenwright.

Farhad Moshiri owns 94% of Everton Football Club. If Kenwright is causing untold damage to the club – and I would argue that such allegations are based on (at best) conjecture – it still comes down to Moshiri. It's his club and he can place anyone he wants in a position of power.

And finally, if he's signed some ridiculous contract that means Kenwright can't be ousted (another perennial ToffeeWeb favourite) then he's even more clearly the shittest billionaire businessman that's ever lived, ie, it's stil his fault.

Dale Self
145 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:40:52
Tony Shelby. That 2nd paragraph is good but you reach too far to completely minimize a fact as unbelievable. Then no review of Bill's comparative credibility.

‘Seems pretty clear' needs some context and so on. Some of us are really trying to follow the argument. Please don't make that such a chase.

That's all.

Dave Abrahams
146 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:43:31
Tony Shelby (133) that's a cracking post, I bet Barry's not only raising a glass to you but laughing his head off at the same time.

Barry's getting bullied on here? Read his post at (52) to another poster, Jesus, he has a go in a quiet way, except with that one, not many agree with him. Then you come on in your browbeating way, telling everyone how wrong they are to blame Kenwright, the Chairman who has been left in control of the club, so Moshiri's mistake is trusting him.

I don't know how long you have been supporting Everton, it makes little difference, but the lies and deceit of Kenwright go back a long time and are all in black and white; if you are not old enough to remember them, you must have read about them.

Moshiri put half a billion or more into Everton, hasn't taken anything out yet. Nobody knows how much Kenwright put into Everton, if anything, but he has taken plenty out with more to come.

Anyway, I trust you and Barry will be supporting the club at Goodison on Sunday, cheering the team on, no matter what your points of view are.

Tony Shelby
147 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:46:27
Chris (142) - If Bill Kenwright is as inept as the TW consensus suggests then, yes, of course he's not fit to do the job.

But if that were the case:

(1) Moshiri should remove him and any other Directors that are not acting in the best interests of EFC; and

(2) If he doesn't, it's Moshiri's fault.

See how this argument keeps going round?

Dale Self
148 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:48:17
Not into non-binary stuff are ya Tony Shelby?
Tony Shelby
149 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:55:32
Dale (145) - Michael is using Moshiri's own words to defend him, ie, that he was only going spend 5% of his time on Everton; the implication being that it was left to the board to run the club.

What I'm saying is that it takes some naivety to trust the words of a man who is the 'No 1 business associate of Alisher Usmanov', himself Vladimir Putin's closest ally. If that seems a bit too conspiratorial, I'll raise you this:

If he was only using 5% of his time on Everton, that clearly amounted to the odd embarrassing 'phone call to Jim White. Or did Kenwright put him up to that too?

Tony Abrahams
150 Posted 25/05/2023 at 14:57:05
Success of sorts, Tony? No disrespect but Everton Football Club did used to stand for competing and at least trying to win until Bill Kenwright dug himself in.

Only two managers in 17 seasons but not even one trophy put in the cabinet still equals relative stability and success of sorts? With an attitude like this, I think it becomes easy to see why the once mighty Everton have fallen from grace so easily.

Tony Shelby
151 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:02:45
Tony (150) - That's a completely different argument.

Compared to where we're sat today, it's success... of sorts.

I remember our 2002-03 end-of-season DVD being called 'The Magnificent 7th'. Embarrassing really but it shows the sense of relief after what came before.

Ernie Baywood
152 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:04:25
Dave, the Owner and the Board appointed her as CEO. She is responsible for running the football club.

It's not some made-up role that they've given her so she can carry the can while Kenwright actually runs the club. She runs the club!

Dale Self
153 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:20:01
Tony Shelby 149, a sincere thanka for coming through there. I know you could have gone after the smartass remark and you didn’t

Thanks again, I can work with this and concede your point. Now, I am offering that it is only partially an explanation of the overall clusterfuck.

Do I need to go through my list of effects running the other way? Hint: who brought that guy in? How did 17 good years suddenly get infected? And so on.

Martin Mason
154 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:32:48
I think that it is a statement of the bleeding obvious that Moshiri as the owner has to take a massive portion of the blame unless he acted as he promised in a very light handed way. Rumour is strong though that he was an interferer with a very negative effect.

That Kenwright is innocent because we were stable until Moshiri came isn't a logical conclusion. Moshiri's takeover gave Kenwright as Chairman something that had kept him in check previously and that was spending power, which is real power, and now with no real businessmen to keep him in check.

I don't differentiate in blame allocation between the two as they are just two faces of the same coin and equally to blame, that is 100% for both of them.

Is Kenwright evil? No, he is exactly what he says he is, a true Blue. Unfortunately, while he could keep the club surviving well in the Moyes era, he was incapable of running the club with money available and yet results went badly.

Kieran Kinsella
155 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:40:13
Martin Mason,

"That Kenwright is innocent because we were stable until Moshiri came isn't a logical conclusion."

You hit the nail on the head. This also goes to the issue of divide and conquer that the Abrahams and Danny mentioned.

Kenwright and his acolytes have been blaming Moshiri for everything bad (and there's been a lot obviously) since Koeman arrived. But at the same time. Kenwrightwas front and center as the great negotiator who bought Patterson when we were between managers. How could he do that if he has no say over anything?

Charity case Jose Baxter was re-signed by the club as an over-age player for the Under-23s due to a combination of Kenwright and Unsworth, as stated by Unsie publicly. So he has the authority to sign a player that has zero value to the club but ,at the same time he's a marginalized figurehead who ceded all control to the mad Moshiri?

Both Moshiri and Kenwright are guilty of failure, as are many others, but they are at the top of the list.

Martin Mason
156 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:45:03
Ernie @152,

As CEO she is responsible for the day-to-day running of the club in a way effectively that the Owner and Chairman want? She would have a say on key decisions as a board member but a bit part compared with Blue Bill.

This thread is apportioning blame now yet it doesn't matter, we are where we are now and on Sunday, the Team and Coach get my absolute support and hopes for survival. I won't be going unfortunately.

Monday will one way or another be a new chapter. Going down will make this a very difficult chapter

Michael Kenrick
157 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:48:48
Tony @144,

Claiming 'fact' for what is at best conjecture or supposition does nothing for your belligerent stance.

"17 years of relative stability, and success of sorts" – I would prefer to characterise it as managed stagnation and decline through abject mediocrity.

"What has happened since speaks for itself." Sorry but it doesn't because you don't know the causation. You don't know the detail. None of us do. None of us knows the chain of command, which decisions were made by whom. To absolve anyone in such a circumstances, as you and Barry seem so keen to do regarding Kenwright, seems deliberately contrarian.

I love the logic you use to reject Moshiri's words. Does this logic apply to all of them, I wonder? Everything he has ever said? Perhaps you can extend it to everything he's ever done:

Frankly, how anyone can use the money of Moshiri – Alisher Usmanov's closest business partner – as mitigation of his performance at the club is beyond me. After all, he's only using it to build a stadium for his own benefit!

"The picture with regard to their relationship and their respective influences over Everton seems pretty clear." Does it? Only based on your interpretation that what they may (or may not) have done. Despite your claims to the contrary, the 'facts' are clearly very opaque. I defy you to know anything substantive about their relationship.

And it doesn't need some bizarre contract for Kenwright to have remained in post as Chairman. Nor is it unreasonable to expect the responsibilities of that role as Chairman of the football club to have changed substantially – which is exactly why people blame him in his position of responsibility for what has happened to the football club.

Ian Horan
158 Posted 25/05/2023 at 15:57:56
Everton weren’t stable before Moshiri, Kenwright has asset stripped to keep his train set!! And before Tony etc jump in I was close to the deal in the sell off of Bellfield. The phrases that springs to mind for our favourite carpet bagger!! “ knows the cost of everything, but the value of nothing!” Sold bellfield sold Finch Farm, mortgaged Goodson forward season ticket sales!! Sold the land at the back of the Park End stand resulting in Goodson becoming landlocked !! No land to develop Park end further . Leased FF back at £10 mill a year over 50 years !!! The Arteta Money . He wouldn’t walk away when Paul gregg offered the £40 mill for kings dock!! Happy to educate people of the facts
Paul Kossoff
159 Posted 25/05/2023 at 16:00:46
Kenwrights not responsible? If it wasn't for uncle Bill we would be in the champions league final, we would have just been crowned premier league champions, we would be in the fa cup final, we would have been in town at the Echo arena or in the kings dock stadium, if not for Bill. But instead because of him we are in shit street, possibly in the championship next season, and maybe in a stadium we won't actually own and skint, if not for Bill.
Dale Self
160 Posted 25/05/2023 at 16:12:58
How’s this? Two well meaning gentlemen in their respective fields succeed to levels where they are in over their heads. Then the big magical pie they’ve been feasting on starts to shrink and they both spasm their way to being exposed. Now theyre using media contacts to stem the damage to their reputations in separate efforts
Tony Abrahams
161 Posted 25/05/2023 at 16:15:21
So it’s all about the money, and nothing else with regards silly Billy, Ian H?

He’s obviously not silly because he’s made himself an absolute fortune, but he’s getting old, and he must realize that he can’t take his money with him. Whatever legacy he might have perceived for himself in his dreams, has also slowly evaporated, with most people now feeling nothing but contempt, for this very cash rich human-being.

Tony Shelby
162 Posted 25/05/2023 at 16:31:33
Michael (157) - Your comments:

"What has happened since speaks for itself." Sorry but it doesn't because you don't know the causation. You don't know the detail. None of us do. None of us knows the chain of command, which decisions were made by whom. To absolve anyone in such a circumstances, as you and Barry seem so keen to do regarding Kenwright, seems deliberately contrarian.

As I said in my original post:

"Kenwright may or may not currently be the worst Chairman in the Premier League, or any league for that matter. It's hard to tell as the actual owner of the club - or more accurately, the front for the real owner - couldn't find his dick with both hands."

I'm not absolving Kenwright of responsibility. I'm neutral when it comes to him and, as I've said before, I'm prepared to consider actual facts and change that opinion, if appropriate. That this makes me look like some form of extremist says more about the accepted narrative on TW than it does about me. What's the point of running a website that gives a platform for fan opinion if you're going to shutdown 'dissent'? And if I seem belligerent, consider it the result of seeing the same 'facts' trotted out unchallenged ad infinitum, when, as you say, none of us know the detail.

I've been on the board at various companies and held shares to various degrees, including as majority shareholder. In that time I've seen several minority shareholder Chairmen who are nothing more than figureheads, relieved of much if not all actual responsibility. Likewise, I've seen Directors that are given little or no opportunity for input; majority shareholders that, behind the scenes, almost solely drive the direction a business is heading etc etc. Having been party to that first-hand, and with respect, it would be pretty fucking stupid of me to pretend otherwise and accept the baying mob's summary of a complex situation, as promoted by ToffeeWeb i.e. It's Kenwright's fault.

John Williams
163 Posted 25/05/2023 at 16:34:17
Jim @134.

I may have been Billy No-Mates, but I did not want them near the club. Everyman and his dog knew that dirty Russian Mafia money was flooding into London and finding people in high places to accept it.

The other very big mistake was wanting to build a new stadium. You need a team before a stadium and if you want evidence, look around the UK and see all these White Elephants, most now in the lower divisions.

Martin Mason
164 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:10:36

Kenwright is a major shareholder and Chairman of the board. Real owner aside, he is the most powerful man at the club and he has been until now from the start of the disaster.

For the Moyes years, it went well and I defended him many times here but, for me, Moyes going marked the turning point – not Moshiri coming. Apart from what could be seen as a fluke first season under Martinez, we have been downhill since then and Moshiri's arrival did nothing to stop it.

The manager-go-round actually started in 2013 not 2016 too. When you look at the above, a logical and reasonable conclusion is that the strength in the Moyes - Kenwright partnership was Moyes and, left to his own devices, Kenwright was hopeless.

The reason why many on ToffeeWeb blame Kenwright for our current situation is because that is the conclusion that a reasonable person would draw from what happened. We don't know exactly, of course, but then again neither do you nor Barry.

You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't fact, sorry, and not necessarily any bettter than the imagined ToffeeWeb Hoi Polloi that you sneer down your nose at.

Mike Hayes
165 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:17:10
Let’s get one thing straight - Kenshite is no blue he’s a feckin red and admitted it in 2010 and once complained that his favourite song YNWA wasn’t in a play he was producing - Boys Pen my backside - just wish his “luvvies” would open their eyes and get their heads out of the sand - Everton is all about HIM - no one else - and if the Daily Nazi wants to run a story - investigate “Headlock Gate” and sort THAT out 🤷😡
Barry Rathbone
166 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:17:56
Michael @137

We never had the present levels of catastrophe under Kenwright. That is an unassailable fact.

Saying “Maybe culpability lies somewhere 5% of his time and 100% of his money?” regarding Moshiri is more supposition.

But my point (and dare I say that of others) is if pitchforks and lit torches are the order of the day, surely the rush to personal persecution should be predicated on facts.

Or maybe I'm old-fashioned.

Martin Mason
167 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:27:56
No Barry, you just have a vivid imagination. There are no pitch forks and torches sorry.
Tony Shelby
168 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:28:25
Michael, I presume you’re going to pick up on Mike Hayes’ swivel-eyed bollocks (165), given the site’s quest for fact-based posting?

Martin (164) - He owns 1.3% of Everton. If that’s ‘major’, can I have 98.7% of your assets please? You can keep a major portion of them.

Mike Hayes
169 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:51:02
Shelby - he admitted it and the YNWA is in print - what do you want - a confession in front of the Pope?

And less of the insults lowering yourself to playground intelligence. 🤷

Barry Rathbone
170 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:52:01
Martin @167,

The fact you took it literally compounds why I really don't want to interact with you.

Mike Gaynes
171 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:52:59
In the absence of any clear, indisputable evidence of what has gone on inside the club offices -- particularly between Moshiri and Kenwright -- I come down on the side of the commander carrying the ultimate responsibility and ultimate blame when the ship hits the rocks.

Whatever happened before 2016 was on Kenwright's watch, and whatever happened after that was on Moshiri's. Of course that's far too simplistic for a complicated situation, but we really have nothing else to go on until one or the other leaves the club, and we may find out very little even then. Personally I strongly doubt that the details of the relationship between the two of them will ever be made public.

On to Sunday, which is really all that matters right now. As Jimmy Buffett sang, "Come Monday, it'll be all right."

Barry Rathbone
172 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:58:45
John Williams 163

"The other very big mistake was wanting to build a new stadium.
You need a team before a stadium and if you want evidence, look around the UK and see all these White Elephants, most now in the lower divisions"

Absolutely bang on.

Unless Moshiri pulls a big oil sheikh out of the hat, any financial critique of the previous regime will pale into insignificance compared to what's on the horizon.

We are absolutely fucked.

Tony Shelby
173 Posted 25/05/2023 at 17:59:34
Mike (169) - What, he admitted he was a red, or admitted that he liked the song?

Either way, citations/links or whatever please.

BTW – My Dad is a lifelong blue. Raised in Kirkdale, married at Walton Church. Even had his wedding reception at The Mons. He's always said that he hates the fact the RS nicked that song as he's always loved it.

Careful what you say, Mike…

Martin Mason
174 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:01:20
Barry, difficult to understand I know but I didn't take it literally.
Allan Board
175 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:12:05
Just win the bloody game Sunday- then hopefully new owners and- a completely new staff throughout the business. Blame who you like- CEO get paid top dollar and deserve sacking when business fails, same goes for board members and any chairman. Take the football emotion out of it -Everton are a relic and have been shit at delivering in their business sector for 25 years. Its amazing this business hasn't folded year's ago. If you accept mediocrity for long enough in business- you become a laughing stock relic- ditto Everton Football Club.
Wake up and only accept the best of standards in your work!!!
Mike Hayes
176 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:12:26
Never liked that song from when I first heard it back in early 70’s - the complaint is in the book “Zigger in the making” and Liverpool fan bemoaned the fact that they didn’t use the song of the Kop I have the excerpt from the book but can’t upload it to here 🤷
Barry Rathbone
177 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:17:47
Martin 174

For god's sake please, please desist.

I'm asking for the second time don't refer or interact with me — your insanity leaves no anchor point for coherent debate.

Martin Mason
178 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:26:06
Barry, sorry that you are so stressed out about it but I just answered your comment that's all. I didn't take it literally.

What would you like me to say? Is this all because I said that you accept mediocrity?

Stan Grace
179 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:33:51
So, to summarise, all (owner/board) are equally to blame, but some are more equally to blame than others.
Mark Taylor
180 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:35:18
It transpires that Moshiri is an idiotic buffoon, at least the part that involves running a football club. But the one big thing he did was bring a lot of money in (okay, probably Usmanov's money, but all the same).

Money cannot be idiotic, it is just money, the necessary lubricant for EPL success. The fact that almost all of it was spaffed up the wall is not entirely or even mostly down to him and I guess he's entitled to spaff a bit of it.

Kenwright on the other hand brought nothing. He is basically a parasite, a great big tapeworm wrapped around our great club. If Viner doesn't want to kick him when he's down, no problem – there's already a big queue.

Tony Everan
181 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:44:53
It fair to say that the facts are blurred not many know the complete truth of it, but it seems to indisputable that W Kenwright has made many millions out of Everton and what he has put in financially is not really known, but it could be next to nothing.

Philip Green was involved in guarantees for the credit with the RBS and seems to have oiled the wheels of the purchase. Which was mortgaged back to the same bank soon after.

He owned 26%, bought for £8 or 9M, with the help of these Green backed loans, then sold half of that for 23m., then sold all but 1.3% sold again to Mr Moshiri. I don't know how much for, but if it was a similar amount it means that Mr Kenwright has made about £35-40m out of Everton without risking an awful lot of his personal wealth.

Nobody really knows the full details, and even this lot above is probably very inaccurate too, anyway it's one interpretation from people putting two and two together and having a stab at the answer.

Tony Shelby
182 Posted 25/05/2023 at 18:51:11
Mike (176) - How inconvenient. No worries though, I’ll trust you…
Mike Hayes
183 Posted 25/05/2023 at 19:21:43
Tony - I have a copy on my phone but can’t upload it here see if you can Google Zigger in the making if so page 24 if that’s possible to look up
Phil Wood
184 Posted 25/05/2023 at 19:50:05
Barry 60.

Yes, we did lose to Grimsby but it was at home not away as the article appears to promote. Paul Wilkinson headed the winner in the last few minutes from a free kick. One of their few efforts. Then we signed him. Another one of our great mis-signings.

Jeff Armstrong
185 Posted 25/05/2023 at 20:04:44
Actually, Man Utd where the first club to use YNWA in the '60s.
Barry Hesketh
186 Posted 25/05/2023 at 20:05:43
Phil @184

Clearly, Mr Viner is referring to the defeat in October 1979, sorry to labour the point, as I don't mind being proved incorrect when that is the case, but I feel that on this occasion I'm correct.

Grimsby 1979

Then in February 1976, when I was 14, he abruptly died. It was a traumatic time to lose a father, but on the upside I gained a season-ticket.

For the next few years I followed my team home and away, bunking off school to make interminable rain-swept journeys to evening games in places like Middlesbrough and Grimsby (for an infamous League Cup defeat) that felt like crossing the Russian steppes. Admittedly, it no longer looked like I had backed a winner.

Finn Taylor
187 Posted 25/05/2023 at 20:06:31
Phil - I don't think Wilkinson was that bad! Seem to recall him scoring a few key goals (away at Southampton in March 85? and a derby winner?) Warren Aspinall though... there was potential that never worked out. (for us anyway!)
Mark Murphy
188 Posted 25/05/2023 at 20:49:27
The quote from George Bests book “scoring at half time”
'As far as I remember, Bill's ticket (besides plenty of the folding stuff) was his lifelong love of Everton. Therefore imagine my surprise while thumbing through an old book about the making of a famous 1960s play called Zigger Zagger when my eyes fell on the following passage:

Three days before the opening Bill Kenwright, a former National Youth Theatre member and avid Liverpool fan, walked in and declared in hurt disbelief: "You have not used the song of the Kop – You'll Never Walk Alone."

Was there another young actor walking around the North-West in the mid-1960s by the name of Bill Kenwright? Had the author got it wrong? Who knows?

Christine Foster
189 Posted 25/05/2023 at 21:00:47
The failings of both Kenwright and Moshiri are not supposition, the specifics are not in the public domain and likely never will be, but to ignore the reality of consequence by debating exactly who is responsible for exactly what is absurd and as I keep saying, the current situation is a catalogue of failure both personal and professional of both Kenwright and Moshiri.

Neither is totally to blame and neither is absolved in any way. The failure to run, manage and control the football club falls squarely on both shoulders. It was badly run under Kenwright; it has been badly run under Moshiri, the only common thread through both periods has been Bill Kenwright.

The levels of responsibility are clear as a chairman and director, clearly something that he has manifestly failed to do. From pauper to owning the sweetshop, his tenure has failed to deliver and has seen the demise in standing of this once great club.

Moshiri, despite his standing and wealth, trusted Bill Kemwright to manage in conjunction with the board, all things football. Clearly that didn't happen either, a poor board and an owner who took bad advice. The train set changed hands but neither of them where ever on the same track.

Bill Kenwright's wait in bringing us the right man seems a bitter joke now, the only person in this whole continuing soap opera to come out as a winner is Kenwright himself. Perhaps Moshiri can do deals to limit his loss or even profit from this adventure but at the moment it looks unlikely. Sometimes you have to walk away and admit it didn't work.

Blame? Different circumstances at different times saw two owners, one a relative pauper, the other a richman who trusted the pauper. But there was a reason the pauper sold, because he failed and blamed his failure on anyone and everyone but himself. The richman believe the pauper story that the reason he failed was a lack of money. It wasn't.

And so the fairy story ends and the two ugly sisters are looking for another Prince Charming (mug) — a sorry tale that has caused much fear and discontent in the land.

Barry Hesketh
190 Posted 25/05/2023 at 21:02:04
Mark @188,

I might be wrong, but I can't recall ever seeing a picture with Bill from the 1960s or early 1970s and any Everton player or at any venue. There's a few from the time he became a member of the board, but not in his early years.

I wish Cyril's bike had gotten a puncture on the way to Goodison in the 1950s.

Tony Everan
191 Posted 25/05/2023 at 21:41:18
Mark, Bill was in that theatre group aged 17 or 18, also the comment about being a Liverpool fan was unlikely to be a mistake as it was followed by the YNWA comment. So maybe there is some truth that he was Red Nose at that age. Maybe jumped ships for some reason not long after, but normally at that age it's irreversible.

Can anyone on here imagine being converted to a red aged 18-21? It's impossible. It's a strange story that isn't trying to be malicious or anything, it's just stating something that happened. The ‘recollections may vary' line will be applied.

Paul Jones
192 Posted 25/05/2023 at 21:56:31
In pursuit of the Kenwright is a red theme...

There was an episode of the awful sitcom 'The Liver Birds' called 'Liverpool or Everton' (series 3, episode 12 - May 5 1972) that featured fathead playing the boyfriend of one of the main characters.

Here's the plot line from IMDB...

"Whilst Beryl is a die-hard Everton football fan, Sandra's newest boy-friend Joe supports Liverpool so the battle lines are drawn, especially after Joe's works team, which he captains, is thrashed 7 - 0 and Beryl mocks him. He challenges her to come with a female football team to take his boys on. It's up to Beryl's Uncle Dermot to get them all into some sort of shape!"

Liverpool or Everton plot

Who played the RS-loving Joe? Old fathead himself. The prosecution rests.

Stephen Vincent
193 Posted 25/05/2023 at 21:57:10
Didn't he play the red shite boy friend of one of the girls in The Liverbirds at about the same time?
Paul Jones
194 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:00:22
You read me mind, Stephen, or vice versa!
Paul Hewitt
195 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:00:52
Can we stop the constant Kenwright crap. I know he's not been a success but Jesus don't you lot ever give up? He will probably go after Sunday when the new investment comes in.
Stephen Vincent
196 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:01:07
Paul remembers it far better than me.
Barry Hesketh
197 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:07:42
Paul @195,

I doubt anybody on the board will leave for a few more months yet and certainly not the Chairman. If somebody proclaims to be the greatest Blue ever, surely it's only fair to examine that claim and check as to its authenticity?

Ernie Baywood
198 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:18:42
Kenwright as owner never had great ambition. In league position terms,that presented as stability. In business terms, that was a slow decline. Businesses have to grow and we didn't, and we had to sell and borrow to stay alive. Bill had no great business knowledge and was out of his depth.

We criticised him for that. And rightly so.

Moshiri had great ambition. He took his shot. New stadium, the best signings we could convince to come. But it was scattergun. No great plan. No real strategy. Poor performers at board level were tolerated. He was completely out of his depth and rightly gets criticism for that.

In this league, when you take your shot, you have to make it. Miss, and you're left with costs without things like European football income to balance them.

It's irretrievable for all involved now.

For us, let's just hope we survive until the next people come in and then hope that they can balance ambition and sustainability better than the last guys. It's a long road back.

Brendan McLaughlin
199 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:31:15
Ernie #198

Moshiri was "old school" in that he believed success could be achieved by appointing the "right" manager and backing them financially. A professional Board, experienced CEO and savy Chairman...not so important in Moshiri's grand plan.

Unfortunately his managerial appointments fell well short...

Paul Kossoff
200 Posted 25/05/2023 at 22:45:56
Colin 5.

"It's like watching a relative with a terminal illness", really?

Shame on you for using that example. I used to think you were an intelligent man, but likening Everton's woes to that really is taking the example far too far.

Ben King
201 Posted 25/05/2023 at 23:03:29
Paul #200

You’re taking the example far too seriously - and you know you are.

We’re all old enough and ugly enough on here to know that football is the most important unimportant thing out there.

Obviously, OBVIOUSLY, a valued family member dying of a terminal illness is worse.

But the analogy still stands up: a long drawn out and painful journey towards an uncertain but probably difficult conclusion.

It’s up to you if you wish to chastise good Evertonians because you’re being literal (and expect that they are too). But I’d suggest it’s worth worrying about something else matey.

Ernie Baywood
202 Posted 25/05/2023 at 23:06:03
Brendan 199, we've also heard about his interference in the Director of Football's role. That was probably the crucial appointment that needed to get the spending right.

It was a build it on the pitch and the rest will follow type approach.

But on the pitch we've had no identity, signed players that didn't fit or weren't required, failed to address more glaring deficiencies.

It's hard to say Moshiri's approach couldn't have worked. We spent good money and failed to improve the team. Every element failed from the pitch up to the owner.

Any kind of transfer strategy would have been better than what we got. Some players the owner wanted, some the manager wanted, and some that were just a club with new money throwing it around and signing whoever took it.

Gary Brown
203 Posted 25/05/2023 at 23:11:48
Frank Lampard. What an utter disaster of a manager.

If we do go, I do hope we all remember just how much of a cause he is.

Yes, the board just as much…..but make no bones, he broke us.

Will Mabon
204 Posted 26/05/2023 at 00:22:12

on the back of his work here, Lampard continues to consolidate his ineffectiveness. With Chelsea's better squad, in his almost 8 weeks there since replacing Potter, Chelsea have been below Everton in the form table for the entire time.

Mike Gaynes
205 Posted 26/05/2023 at 01:07:47
Will, he's won 1 in 10 at Chelsea. That's the same run that got him sacked here... and with massively superior talent. The guy is truly awful.

However, I won't entirely slag him. Over that 8-game stretch last spring starting with the ManU win and ending with the Palace game, he had us playing with as much passion and inspiration as any of us could have asked for, and we got 14 of a possible 24 to stay up. His joy after the Palace game was palpable.

Unlike Koeman and Benitez, he really cared and gave his all, and I give him points for that.

Don Alexander
206 Posted 26/05/2023 at 01:27:52
Paul (#195), are you related to the total shyster Boris Johnson perchance?
Kieran Kinsella
207 Posted 26/05/2023 at 01:46:55

Lampard as a manager was perplexing. On paper, he ticked a lot of boxes. He had family pedigree of good managers and coaches. He's smart. Players seemed to respect him. He seemed to motivate them. He has been there done it and got the tee-shirt.

He was astute enough to bring in coaches who seemed to cover the areas where he was lacking. And yet, all-in-all, Mike Walker puts him in the shade when you consider his Norwich tenure. As our neighbours across the channel say he obviously missed a je ne sais quo.

Don Alexander
208 Posted 26/05/2023 at 01:53:39
Kinsella, it's "quoi", not "quo"!

Buck up if you want to retain a modicum of credibility!!!! :) :)

Kieran Kinsella
209 Posted 26/05/2023 at 02:02:15
Paul Kossoff,

Echoing Ben, unfortunately I imagine most of us have seen a terminally ill loved one pass away and it's nothing to joke about. However, I'm sure Colin was speaking figuratively from his sentimental perspective as another of us irrational grown men so concerned about the sporting prowess of a bunch of strangers we don't personally know.

Colin is clearly an intelligent guy but more importantly, based on his years of posts he's also a thoroughly decent bloke. I can understand how you equating it with real life would be offended but I'm sure that was not his intent mate.

Ernie Baywood
210 Posted 26/05/2023 at 06:29:36
Kieran, I suspect that Lampard is too much of a football person.

I think he's a romantic who saw Everton and thought 'I love that challenge of awakening a sleeping giant'. Then saw Chelsea and thought the former player could help them in their hour of need.

What he should have seen was two basket cases that a smart manager would not go anywhere near.

In terms of on the pitch tactical ability he's obviously questionable. But it's hard to judge anyone who manages Everton. Likewise this current Chelsea setup.

The judgement I can make of him is that he makes very bad choices.

Tony Abrahams
211 Posted 26/05/2023 at 08:00:46
Paul@200, if Everton get relegated on Sunday, then I think you will see more tears, than if you attended any funeral. Of course Colin, could have used a different example, but surely anyone with a bit of common sense, would know what he was trying to say, especially when you read the rest of his paragraph? It definitely made sense to me anyway.
Christopher Timmins
212 Posted 26/05/2023 at 08:53:57
It's been a long week, however, by convincing myself that both Leeds and Leicester will both lose on Sunday, it has been a bit easier.

I can't wait for this miserable season to come to an end with West Ham 4 points ahead of Bournemouth in the table!

Rob Halligan
213 Posted 26/05/2023 at 09:21:54
The referee for Sunday is Stuart Attwell, with one of the assistants being the one that scum bag Robertson “attacked”. More worryingly though, is that Michael Oliver is the VAR official. God knows what kind of decisions he’s going to make in his little box 200 miles away!
Mike Doyle
214 Posted 26/05/2023 at 09:59:16
Rob #213,

The only group that seem confident about our chances on Sunday seem to be the bookies – all of whom seem to have us as favourites.

Perhaps any posters more familiar with the sports betting industry could give their thoughts?

David Midgley
215 Posted 26/05/2023 at 10:58:30
Colin #5,

I disagree with you slightly. This loved one wasn't and isn't terminal. It was sick and malnourished and, if it had received the right medication at the time, it would be flourishing now. It just needs some nourishment.

If you don't water and feed a plant, it dies; we aren't at that stage yet. No matter where we are next season, the Everton Phoenix will rise again.

Christine Foster
216 Posted 26/05/2023 at 11:09:47

Everton mean so much to so many. I have said it before but loving Everton started when you were born and only ends when you die. If there are pearly gates, they are painted Royal Blue.

Point is, for many of us, it truly is the love of our life. Friends and family come and go, The one thing that is always there is Everton. Now, its very existence is threatened by people with dubious motives.

Tears would never be enough to banish the feeling of betrayal. Nothing would ever make me forgive those whose treatment of our club saw its demise. I could banish them from my memory if we stay up... but I could never do that if we don't.

I don't care who is playing or not. The 11 on the pitch have our deepest hearts desire; win, that's all we have to do. So every single fan, whenever you are, summon every ounce of your passion and drive them to win.

John Williams
217 Posted 26/05/2023 at 11:39:26
Referring to Bill Kenwright in the 1960s and whether he was a Blue or a Red.

I can assure you he was and still is an Everton supporter, but he also loves the City of Liverpool. In the 1960s, he lived in a flat in London, because if you wanted
to make it in showbiz, that was the place to be.

In 1965, when Liverpool played Leeds Utd in the FA Cup Final, he opened up his flat to friends and family to stay over, then going to a London Hotel on the Saturday morning to get tickets for guys who needed them.

In 1966, Everton v Sheffield Wednesday in the FA Cup Final, he did the same.

How do I know this? Because a very good friend of mine was there.

Kevin Molloy
218 Posted 26/05/2023 at 11:53:31
Bill Kenwright is one of the last great influencers. The number of people who will come out to fight for him is just remarkable.

His torpedoing of King's Dock, the relentless 24/7 search that ended with Russian gangsters who let him stay as chairman, his pocketing of tens of millions having not put a bean in, and then his presiding over the last 7 years.

And now potentially our final weekend, none of it matters, cos people hear him speak and think 'You know, he's not so bad'.

It really does show how far charm can get you. Tony Blair, Rolf Harris, Saruman, eat your heart out, you've got nothing on our chap.

Clive Rogers
219 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:14:12
Bill Kenwright has destroyed Everton Football Club. It is as simple as that.

The End.

Kevin Naylor
220 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:36:30
Mike Doyle @214,

I can't believe we are 3/1 to stay up. If we do, it will be because either Leicester or Leeds (by 3 or more) don't win. Without a recognised striker (or one that score goals), we will struggle to beat Bournemouth so I think we'll be relying on results elsewhere.

Because of the above, I rate us as no more than 6/4 to stay up myself. I really hope I'm wrong and we win 3-0, but this is Everton and we know it's not going to be as easy as that.

Raymond Fox
221 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:38:57
Mike 214, I said a while back while hoping to god we win, I couldn't agree with the betting, we are not that strong a fav with our injuries.

Bets alter the prices and the only explanation I can come up with is everyone wants to back Everton and nobody Bournemouth.

Although the other day we were 2/5 and are now 1/2 and Bournemouth were 11/2 and are now 6/1 so maybe nobody wants to bet on the game, who knows.

Kevin Naylor
222 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:40:50
Ray I wouldnt take 1/2 for us to beat Huntley and Palmers 2nd XI at the moment.
Brent Stephens
223 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:54:47
Kevin #222 - cracker.
Kieran Kinsella
224 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:56:57

Pardon Moi – it's been 30 years since I dabbled in French.

Ernie Baywood
225 Posted 26/05/2023 at 12:59:42
Kevin #220,

I was struck listening to podcasts today that non-Evertonians see us as having the best fixture of the three.

And they're right. If we were facing Spurs or West Ham, we'd feel worse.

Then there's the fact that, of all the possible outcomes, the majority are in our favour.

We're favourite to stay up now for very good reason.

I still think the odds on a draw or Bournemouth win are generous, but I'm a natural pessimist when it comes to Everton.

Rob Halligan
226 Posted 26/05/2023 at 13:01:33
Mike # 214.

I'm with the bookies, mate. I honestly think Bournemouth will have no interest in trying to beat us. They will get in, play the game and get out.

For fuck's sake, though, having to rely on beating Bournemouth, a club who have probably spent as much time in the top division as we've spent out of it, to stay up.

Barry Rathbone
227 Posted 26/05/2023 at 13:18:36
The thing with Bill Kenwright is he knows what makes people tick.

The sentimentality and parochial attitudes that figure hugely in Liverpool, he massages and cajoles, playing supporters like a virtuoso. A few references to glories past and his devotion to the cause covers a multitude of sins… as long as we're not in danger!!

Words are hugely powerful – Churchill, Shakespeare and more recently Donald Trump grasped this. Tell people what they want to hear and they trot along like so many sheep.

The only reason protest has jumped from forums to the terraces is the real threat of relegation. If the usual mid-table non-entity status had prevailed, there wouldn't be a peep at Goodison.

My guess is he will see survival as a means to mend fences with the majority and carry on. (I said 'the majority' – not the handful here – that ain't ever going to happen!)

Dave Abrahams
228 Posted 26/05/2023 at 13:29:28
Barry (227),

I think Kenwright has more in common with Trump, especially the repeated lies, than Shakespeare and Churchill — and even Churchill was swerved in the first election after the Second World War.

Kieran Kinsella
229 Posted 26/05/2023 at 13:33:52

A lot of truth in what you say. I'm in the handful though.

Clive Rogers
230 Posted 26/05/2023 at 13:46:25

I think you are correct about Kenwright's mentality, but the tide has turned for the majority of fans. They have seen almost 30 years without a trophy and continued decline throughout that time and have had enough, like I have.

A once great club is now a nonentity.

Barry Rathbone
231 Posted 26/05/2023 at 13:58:37
Dave, Kieran, Clive,

I can see him now post survival getting the photographer to snap him, Moshiri and the new investors beaming from ear to ear.

His quote will be "The only way is up! We've had tough times but together we've come through, as they say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!! It's all behind us now. Let's join with our marvellous new investors and bring the good times back. UP THE TOFFEES!"

The sound of people lapping it up will echo around the north-west and beyond.

Dave Abrahams
232 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:09:58
Barry (231),

I think only a handful will lap up that speech, and you never left any spaces in the speech where he lets the tears flow, coughs, gets his hankie out etc, etc.

Clive Rogers
233 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:17:14

I think Moshiri has realised he was conned by Kenwright. He hasn't been near Goodison for 18 months and the last game they both attended, away in London, they sat apart. I think that relationship is over.

I don't like the sound of these new investors either. Kenwright has finished Everton as a top club.

Kieran Kinsella
234 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:18:26
Dave and Barry,

I can see him now on the second tears pause "We are a family of Evertonians. These silly squabbles are a thing of the past so I invite every Evertonian to join with me in a rendition of YNWA. sorry I meant If You Know Your History. Alright fellows, here they come all the people who've made this club great let's give them a round of applause: Lil' Miss Dynamite, Sharpy, Prenno, Tony Bellew, Wazza, Unsie, Jose Baxter, Moysey, Philip Green, Richard Dodd. welcome back."

Meanwhile deep in the depths of Goodison Park heavily armed security guards have Stubbs and Southall and Tony Marsh in headlocks.

Paul Tran
235 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:27:07
Mike #214, I like a punt and know the betting industry fairly well, so here's my thoughts.

We're favourites to beat Bournemouth and a fabulous 3/1 to get relegated. I'd be all over those odds if I thought we were going down.

First thing is to take your gaze away from the performative psychodrama that is Everton online and look at the percentages. We're two points ahead of the other two and we're playing at home. The other two are playing stronger teams than we are. Their back fours are both as open as a barn door. You could make a case that our defence is (relatively) more solid than both the other teams. Therefore both those teams are more likely to concede goals than us, and they must win. I'd be surprised if Spurs don't get a couple of goals at Leeds and West Ham will have players looking to get into the team for a final. No reason to believe they'd be 'on the beach' any more/less than Bournemouth.

Of course, the unexpected can happen on the final day, but the bookies make their living on consistent, hard probability. I work with people all over the country and beyond - everybody is telling me we'll stay up and I know them well enough to know they're not just being nice.

So that's why I think the bookies have the markets this way. You have to play with the cold detachment that they use.

The only bet I'd think about for Sunday is that none of the three teams will win.

Hope that's useful.

Martin Mason
236 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:39:09
Barr y@231,

And you'll be accepting it just as much as those fictitious fans you sneeringly identify as lapping it up.

Kieran Kinsella
237 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:52:12

In fairness to Barry, there always have been and still are fans who do "lap it up," even on ToffeeWeb.

I'd like to think Barry is wrong and that the majority won't get snowed again but, between wheeling out his sporadic "illness" to gain sympathy, and capitalizing on emotional moments, Kenwright does have a stellar record for weasling himself out of trouble.

Raymond Fox
238 Posted 26/05/2023 at 14:55:20
Sorry to repeat myself once again, I'll be extremely surprised – nay, astonished – if Kenwright is around next season. Also, I can't see Moshiri wanting to be the owner for much longer.

We don't want the club relegated, that goes without saying; if we can cling on this season, I think we will be sold without difficulty because the potential of the club should be obvious to all.
Mike Hayes
239 Posted 26/05/2023 at 15:06:30
Kieran - should have put and the one who’s been responsible for all of this last but not least lil miss dynamite in a friendly headlock with our very own Tony Bellew 🥂🍾🥳
Martin Mason
240 Posted 26/05/2023 at 15:15:04
Kieran, couldn't agree more but it's not for an absolutely ordinary fan like Barry to sneer at them for doing what they have every right to do if they want. Don't forget too that it is only Barry's opinion, that's all.

I don't believe that it could possibly happen because nobody is that stupid. I've asked many times and never been answered but what do fans like Barry actually do to NOT accept what the so-called Happy Clappers do?

Bill Gall
241 Posted 26/05/2023 at 15:20:10
My feelings today are like a calm before a storm, where with a favorable result it will bring relief that the good ship Everton has come through the storm with minimal damage, and will take a number of months to clear the damage that has been caused through years of no preventive damage control, by the Owner and his Executives.

An unfavorable result will bring in a tsunami that will take years to clear up the damage caused, and will result in rebuilding and repairs to the remaining structures, from the Owner and his 'New Board of Directors'. Some of the repairs could take more than 1 year to rebuild, with other repairs in place in a couple of months.

Living in Canada, we get a lot of news from The States, especially about 1 ex-president
who seems to get an awful lot of support with his baseball cap motif, so I went and got one of my own, instead of MAGA, it is a royal blue baseball cap with MEGA in white lettering. instead.

Going into hiding until after the game.

Mike Hayes
242 Posted 26/05/2023 at 15:20:30
To be serious, I think every Evertonian could literally cry at what's happened in the last 7 years: new owner – £750M spent and nothing to show for it. The only saving grace is the stadium – but, if the rumours are right, even that's looking dodgy.

Fingers, legs, eyes, internal organs crossed for a victory and safety next Sunday. 🤞💙
James Flynn
243 Posted 26/05/2023 at 19:18:21
Mike (214) - I grew up with gambling all-around me, but it's decades I'm away from that life. My 2 cents, anyway.

Us-33 points (-24); Leeds-31 points (-27); Leicester-31 points (-18). 1 game left to play.

Everton possible outcomes

1. Win

2. Draw

3. Lose

#1 result (Please God, you still owe me one) eliminates all other possible outcomes. We're safe. Leeds and Leicester are down.

#2 result, and:

a.) Leeds and Leicester both either draw or lose. We're safe. Leeds and Leicester are down.

b.) Leeds and Leicester win. Leicester safe on GD. Leeds and us are down.

c.) Leeds wins by 3 or more goals and Leicester doesn't win. Leeds safe either by GD or GF. Leicester and us are down.

#3 result, and:

a.) Leeds and Leicester both either draw or lose. We're safe. Leeds and Leicester are down.

b.) Leeds and Leicester win. Leicester safe on GD. Leeds and us are down.

c.) Leeds wins by 3 or more goals and Leicester doesn't win. Leeds is safe either by GD or GF. Leicester and us are down.

Setting The Odds

We win, we stay up. But we might draw or lose and STILL stay up.

Both Leeds and Leicester MUST win to stay up. If they draw or lose, they're down, regardless of our result.

So we have the most result-possibilities that could see us safe, Leeds has the fewest, and the odds are set accordingly.

Mike Doyle
244 Posted 26/05/2023 at 20:26:38
Paul & James, thanks for your response.

The thing that surprises me is that all bookies seem to have us odds-on favourites to beat Bournemouth. Clearly they are not known for sentimentality so I wonder why – given recent form?

Oliver Molloy
245 Posted 26/05/2023 at 20:40:13
I think it's nailed on Leicester and Leeds will win, so can we beat Bournemouth?

There are lots of people who think we won't beat them – all the pressure is on us and they will know it.

Around 6 pm on Sunday, Evertonians will be either delirious or distraught!

Chris Leyland
246 Posted 26/05/2023 at 20:47:49
If you analyse our results since Dyche came in, we have lost 7 times: to 6 of the top 7 and the 10th placed side. We have yet to lose against anyone in the bottom half of the table under Dyche. He's basically made us hard to beat against lower-half teams and matched us up well.

Our problem is turning draws against these teams into wins and that is because of our lack of fire power as our inablity to keep a clean sheet or hold onto a lead. As such, what worries me most about a Sunday is that we will draw.

God knows who we will have upfront on Sunday but whoever it is is going to need to up their game considerably to give us a chance of winning because we've only managed one clean sheet in the previous 10 games too.

Rob Halligan
247 Posted 26/05/2023 at 20:56:23
Not a cat in hells chance of Leicester and Leeds winning on Sunday.
Brent Stephens
248 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:16:17
"Nailed on that Leicester and Leeds will win".
"Nailed on they will both lose".

Somebody is using rubber nails. If only I knew what will happen. 2 more sleeps before we know.

Posting for the sake of posting. Hell is supporting Everton.

Oliver Molloy
249 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:19:53
What is your thinking on that, Rob?
Mark Murphy
250 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:23:11
I'm shot to bits, Brent!

Whatever happens, I just wish it was Monday!


Brent Stephens
251 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:31:55
Mark, not just any Monday but a Magnificent Monday, a Toffee Tuesday, a "We did it" Wednesday...
Neil Copeland
252 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:45:36
Brent, followed by a “Thank god for that Thursday” and a “Fuck me, how did we manage that, Friday”.
Rob Halligan
253 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:52:29
What's your thinking on Leicester and Leeds both being nailed on to win, Oliver?

Bearing in mind I'm pretty certain it was you who said that Leeds were nailed on to beat West Ham, after West Ham qualified for the Mickey Mouse European final.

Kieran Kinsella
254 Posted 26/05/2023 at 21:57:56

Don't even worry, it will be a very calm Sunday. By half-time, we will be 2-0 up, the other two will be 2-0 down, and the second halves will play out as boring lifeless affairs with only the odd "ole" to remind us the game is going on.

Brendan McLaughlin
255 Posted 26/05/2023 at 22:24:28
For fuck's sake, Everton are odds on to win, Leicester even money, and Leeds only 7/4 against to get a result.

Anything is possible... it's football... it's unpredictable...

Everton will win though!

Don Alexander
256 Posted 26/05/2023 at 22:53:16
Listening to Dyche's obligatory presser today, I was amused that the final question to him was about Everton's allegedly current, and I quote, "succession planning" to replace him.

Sean seemed to be as amused as me.

Everton "don't get" succession planning – obviously – hence our must-win last match to "achieve" our lowest-ever points tally to bizarrely escape the drop.

"Succession planning" – as if!

Chris Hockenhull
257 Posted 26/05/2023 at 22:55:41

“Nailed On?” (are you Ivan Toney in drag?? ).

For fuck's sake… I hope you're not anywhere near the team talk.

Will Mabon
258 Posted 26/05/2023 at 22:57:32
Brent, c'est la vie, Sunday?

There's a chance there'll be a shock result in one of the 3 games. What would be a shock result?

Will Mabon
259 Posted 26/05/2023 at 23:07:28
Don, I couldn't quite make out all the very quiet words of that last question, but if he actually mentioned a replacement manager, that's a disgraceful question.
Rob Halligan
260 Posted 26/05/2023 at 23:12:25
David Moyes saying he will be playing his strongest possible team on Sunday. Whether he does or not is another matter, but it will make Dean Smith think about the team he should put out, if Moyes does indeed put a strong team out.

Moyes saying he is more than aware that allowing too much rest could see the Hammers lose their edge. "We want everybody fresh but we want them all able and prepared," said the Hammers manager. "We don't want the gap in time between the games to be too long.

"All of those things are coming into our thinking. We want to keep playing as well as we have, we've improved greatly in the last month or so, we had a really good victory last weekend, we won at Alkmaar as well, so we want to try keep that run going."

Winning breeds confidence, and as this is the last game before their European final, he will want to go out on a high. Very similar in fact, to when we played, and won, at Fulham in the last game of the season in 2009, the week before the FA Cup final against Chelsea.

Paul Birmingham
261 Posted 26/05/2023 at 23:14:03
Hope and belief; turn up live and virtually as Evertonians,

This weekend, the Everton legions of supporters are ready around the World to will the victory over Bournemouth, else the results elsewhere that mean Everton stay up in the Premier League!

The Spirit today in work at Old Hall Street and across the City is superb. Everton will prevail and by merit.

But this Summer, assuming this weekend's results by Everton and the relegation teams, the Board and the club must press the “Stop & Reset” button to start fresh, to start a new era, reset the clock to real time but with a new board. The chaos of the last 30-odd years and the carnage of the last 7 years cannot be accepted.

Failure is not acceptable at Everton at any level of ownership and management. The club must get a solid board to survive and restart Everton FC.

“Whats Our Name?”


Will Mabon
262 Posted 26/05/2023 at 23:44:21
We talked of this here the other night, Rob, when to play and rest etc. We were on it before Moyes :-)
Steve Brown
263 Posted 27/05/2023 at 09:24:21
Oliver, I kept reading that Leeds and Leicester were nailed on to win their last three league games.

Since that managerial genius Sam Allardyce took over, it was confidently predicted by you and others that they would get big points from their last 3 games. They got 1 point.

Both Leicester and Leeds have one 1 league game out of 13. That form doesn't lie, and they have only managed to earn draws by parking the bus. They can't do that on Sunday.

That being said, the first goal in each of the 3 games will be critical. If Everton, Leeds or Leicester concede first, then pressure is on big time.

Oliver Molloy
264 Posted 27/05/2023 at 13:26:40
Rob @ 253
I can't remember Rob but I don't think I said Leeds were "nailed on" to beat West Ham - If I did I'm very happy to have been wrong.

Chris @ 257.
Don't you think that's what the manager will be drumming into the players - we must win because the other two will ?

Raymond Fox
265 Posted 27/05/2023 at 14:09:09
Oliver I think you got carried away when you said Leicester and Leeds are nailed on to win, they well might but you can get near 4/1 that happening.
West Ham are in form and Spurs don't become useless overnight, I can see both drawing or winning which suits us fine.
Rob Halligan
266 Posted 27/05/2023 at 14:39:35
Sorry, Oliver…. you put me on a mission to find what you said. Not quite “Nailed on to win” but as close as. Sorry mate! 👍👍

Oliver Molloy: I think it's nailed on that Leeds will get something from West Ham after tonight's result.

Oliver Molloy
267 Posted 27/05/2023 at 14:44:49
Maybe Raymond, I hope you are right, but Everton should just go out to win.
Oliver Molloy
268 Posted 27/05/2023 at 14:48:16
Very happy to have been wrong, Rob!
Phil Gardner
269 Posted 27/05/2023 at 17:35:32
It tells you all you need to know about this appallingly run club when you see Anthony Gordon’s picture still being used to sell merchandise. What a bunch of incompetent embarrassing wankers.

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