Mail report claims ruling against Everton could come early

It Looks like we need all the points we can get. Lets say we get 6 - 8 pts deduction. That means we will need 43 - 45 points to stay above 18th place.I reckon the 18th team may well have 36 points. Though, If we win our last 10 games we will be safe, even with a points deduction of 19 points.

Jack #1

In the unlikely event an investigation is concluded this season any points deduction penalty would kick in next season.

I like the idea suggested, although highly improbable, but definitely possible, that we win every game till the end of the current campaign. That way, it wouldn't matter about any possible points deduction, and show two fingers to those wishing our demise.

There is an unseemly distaste for the clamour to punish by other clubs trying to get a decision to ensure we are relegated or punished this season.
This is a politically motivated investigation determined to show a government intent on regulatory management of the EPL, that it can police its own. Within a week of whatever judgement that is reached make no mistake we will be chip paper and forgotten, a point made.
We are big enough for people to be shocked but small enough not to matter. Its just all too convenient when you look at the huge spending and losses that other clubs have. It has all the feelings of a perfect set up. Thats NOT to say its a conspiracy or that we haven't managed our debt correctly, BUT the premise of the P & S is wrong if any club can spend more in one window than all our debt in three years.. and not be subject to review. Thats NOT a level playing field, thats a structure designed to keep the rich at the top and the rest in our place, never to be able to compete financially and as a result on a football pitch.
If there is no hope or expectation for a club other than a handful of bottomless pit clubs, to win anything, what is the point? Its now a cartel and it is fully supported by the league.
Can you see Man City being stripped of titles or dropped to league two? Or even a points deduction for 101 offences? Yet Everton have one, undefined as yet, breach and people are expecting points deduction, relegation.. this season!
The reports already in the press are of going under, relegation this season no matter what the results ahead,
This league is corrupt in its failure to manage the big clubs spending but we have a loss to the value of ONE decent transfer and we are earmarked for the gallows.
I am growing to hate this league.

Christine

Why wouldn't these other clubs want us punished for flouting the rules? When the EPL broke from the football league we were there at the forefront cutting off the Brighton's, Fulhams and Bournemouth's. When Newcastle were bought by despots we were again at the forefront complaining as we were when City got bought. When the snakes joined the European super league Kenwright went out of his way to lead the condemnation. Leicester are struggling this year having sold good players as their owners explained they had to in order to comply with FFP. Villa missed out on promotion when Wolves allegedly broke FFP. Why would any of these teams cut us any slack when we claim the moral high ground and cast the first stone at others? Even if we stayed Mum it's a dog eat dog world but Kenshite has gone out of his way to portray us as occupying the moral high ground so we can attack Chelsea for Russian links, City, Newcastle, super league etc etc while the likes of Brighton follow the rules. Beyond his other crimes Kenshite has ensured we are the most hypocritical club in the league. Consequently we have no Allie's and attract no sympathy

Kieran, fair points, hands up.. but none of the above came at a time when it was politically expedient to find a patsy.. morality doesn't count. We were up front in opposition to the super league six, but its not them who are pitching in against us demanding retribution, its those big clubs like Leeds, Burnley, Forest et al.. protecting their own interests. Deflecting focus incase it falls on them. The P & S rules where intended to give a level playing field (?) when in fact it did the opposite.
Look at the amounts of money spent by those clubs in the past 5 years against what we have spent. Is that equitable? The best players go with the money is.. so much for a level S & P and a level playing field.
But you are right. We should never have been in this position. Ever. The fact we are stems solely from Kenwrights incompetence and Moshiri's stupidity. I am angry not because of the bleating of our owners but more so of the hypocrisy of the EPL.

Meanwhile Ivan Toney, having about 263 charges of a betting scandal, and already having admitted to some of them, carries on playing, and even making his England debut in the process. Now I know this is nowhere near the scale of our case, but Brentford are pushing for a European place next season, so why doesn't those other clubs in and around the European places, write and complain as to why Toney has not yet been suspended? If he's admitted to some charges, then suspend him immediately. If he's found guilty of the charges he's denying, then lengthen his suspension.

And as for Man Utd being over ONE BILLION POUNDS in debt which also includes outstanding payments of transfer fees, what are the premier league going to do about that?

If I remember aright, didn't the clubs, including Everton, vote in favour of the rules for the introduction of the Premier League.

Wasn't it supposed to prevent clubs from getting into so much debt that the club would go bust.

If that's the case, it appears that the clubs (including us) didn't take into account that the dice were already loaded (forgive the gambling analogy!) in favour of the clubs with the most money coming in.

Rob United being 1 billion in debt has nothing to do with it. It's about total losses over a 3 year period. We have broken the rules, I find it hard why fans can't see that. Whatever the punishment is we should take it and just move on

Yes Paul,

But.

If you are £1BN in debt, surely that club has been operating outside of profit and sustainability?

I think a lot of clubs are and have been.

As Danny says Paul, it's all about PROFIT and SUSTAINABILITY. Man Utd are not in profit, they are in debt to the tune of over ONE BILLION POUNDS. I'm pretty sure they are able to sustain themselves but they are floundering one half of P & S.

Also, over the past three years, how much have Man Utd lost, or has this debt just Miraculously appeared from nowhere?

Half the 1 billion debt is money owed to clubs over transfers.

I think we deserve some form of punishment if found guilty of breaking p&s rules - we've honestly had it coming and we know more than anyone how the club has been mismanaged, so a punishment of sorts I expect and can live with BUT there needs to be more than just a conversation on how and when the PL punish others. To think that only a short while ago, some PL teams tried to form a separate league and yet received nothing (a shitty little fine was it?) beggars belief.

Anthony, good point on Sustainability of the EPL, in view of the Teams, whom were complicit in forming a Euro Super League, and got off with a paper round fine.

And as Rob and Danny have said, United, are not clean, running up a1£B, debt. That's taking P&S, non compliance, to another level, as on par with City.

And so back to the EPL, so called custodians of virtue and what is right, and best practice..
Well we all have our views and they have and continue to Lord it and take the piss, in terms of consistency and setting industry standard benchmarks, without political interference.

Jeez football is a simple game, it still is, but the governance of the English game -EPL and EFL, and the FA, has brought more questions, than answers, and throw in var, the mismanagement of a good idea

Rob, I might be wrong on this but haven't United been carrying that debt since the Glazers bought the club in a leveraged buy-out, when they saddled the club with that debt? So in recent years the debt has actually been reduced? So not in contravention of the regs in that respect???

Brent, apparently United were about £470M in debt before the Glazers took over. That rose to about £530M after the takeover.

Now it sits at £1BN.

Nothing to see there though.

I thought that there was no mileage in owning United, once the Glazier's paid so much money, (or lent the money, and with the help of the bank saddled the club with massive debt, helping them both make a fortune) for the club, Brent.

It's incredible that United are now going to be sold for around £5/6 Billion, and because I live in hope, and will always keep faith in Everton (especially when we drain out the nepotistic poison) then I think we are a club that offers massive value for someone and hope it's sometime soon.

If Everton get safe, I'd offer Bill Kenwright, an olive branch. Let him come back, and make him realize that he should have stayed away. I've said it many times, but any Liverpool fan, would be incredibly proud of the hatchet job that this man has done on Everton FC, over many years.

Rob (7), Rob I agree with your point but it would be better for Everton if Toney's suspension,if he gets one, starts next season so Toney can play against some of our relegation rivals this season.

Danny, is the significant thing here the difference between the balance sheet and the profit and loss account? The EPL is concerned with the latter (which is cumulative) not the former (which is for any particular year)? If the Glazers have taken out annually amounts and the debt level has risen to ٟbillion, that doesn't necessarily mean that they incurred trading losses in any 3 consecutive years. As I understand it!

Danny, I don't have the figures, but I suspect United's turnover is enormous, which may have a bearing on their P&S figures, which are based on financial performance over a three year period.

Our low commercial income, reliance on spurious 'sponsorship' deals, terrible loss-making transfer policy (the last accounted year excepted) and proportionately enormous wages give us very little wiggle room.

If other clubs have directors with knowledge of legal frameworks and the know-how to exploit them and we don't, that is, I'm afraid, our fault and our problem.

Brent, Paul, this is why I should just focus on my own bank account and football.

It's getting close to Monday.

Brent, I'd say you're spot-on.
Danny, Monday is the one the few things in our control that's away from the hands of our Board. Can't wait!

Paul (20) spot on mate. United income for '22 was £689m - they can carry large debts. EFC for '22 was £214m - essentially we are a corner shop trying to pay wages to keep up with supermarkets. EFC percentage of income paid in wages was 96% - throw in a global pandemic and a war taking away sponsorship and bingo!

What the account statement regarding us being a going concern if relegated highlights is that the gap between Championship and Premiership is unsustainable. AS Christine pointed out above, the PL is being pulled to the table to address this because of the regulator threat. Watch some of the clips from the select committee last week - it's hilarious. The PL guy is a marketeer and a very successful one. The Championship are very poor relations. At the start of Premier league the EFL income was 75% of the PL, today it's 6%. A very crooked system.

The solution they are now discussing is pooling the TV media rights of PL and EFL and then distributing payments based on where you finish (the PL do this already, the EFL doesn't) to stop the gap growing further, also P&S as it stands will go I think and sustainability will be based on percentage of topline income that can be spent. I agree with Christine that its a fixed game but given the huge difference in commercial revenues, I fear for us with the new system unless we can avoid relegation and build that new stadium to increase revenue.

I wonder how much real politics is in this. outside of football issues, we have Russian money to the tune of upto a billion pounds invested now in a port which could in future be key in transatlantic trade. There. may be other reasons we are being pursued here. We know Moshiri
and his mate had big plans for the port, this could be ringing a lot of alarm bells. If they stick us with a points deduction such that this investment goes severely wonky, they may not cry themselves to sleep over that scenario.

I don't think we can do much about what other clubs do, or don't, stand breaking the P and S regs.

The fact is, we have "Allegedly" fallen foul of those regs. The other clubs don't really matter to me unless they are being dealt with, differently, of course.

Now if we're "alleged" to have broken them, it's us who are going to be investigated by the Independent Commission. The others mentioned we'll wait and see.

According to a press article in the Mail, an EFC spokesperson is quoted as saying " Everton is (wish thery said are) disappointed to hear of the P/L's decision to refer and allegation of a breach of Profit and Sustainability regulations to an Independent for review"
The Club strongly contests the allegation of non compliance and, together with its independent team of experts, is entirely confident that it remains compliant with all financial rules and regulations.

"Everton" is (wish they'd say Are) prepared to robustly defend it's position to the Commisiion. The Club has, over several years, provided information to the Premier League in an open and transparent manner and hads chosen to act with the utmost good faith at all times.

A few points here that make me think.
I thought that Everton and the PL had kept in close communication, to ensure the we hadn't broken any of the idiotic bloody P&S rules, all the way through the period in question.

It seems to me that if we can prove that the P?L has been advised of all our doings and has given their blessing for EFC to carry on. Then the documentation (I do hope there is some!!!) will prove they have P/L knowledge and permission to carry on)

My feelings lie towards EFC being in the clear, as far as the P/L are concerned.

Then, to me, the wording "allegation" is the key point. I would tend to think that EFC even under this chairman, wouldn't be either so soft or so nefarious as to break P & S rules. I also tyhink that the P/L have not, as far as I know, given any public indication that they have jusdged EFC to be in breach of the P&S regs.

My guess is that the clubs who are screaming for this to be dealt with now, then one, or all of them, have put a complaint in to the P/L and this eems to be the case given their desire to have this dealt with this season.
We seem to have a strong case and hopefully can prove that the P/L have given it's blessing to our dealings.

Hope this isn't too idiotic for you Martin!

Jim, good points. I think our case ultimately rests on the strength of the 'assurances' and whether they were subject to any conditions. Our Board's record in matters of honesty and accuracy don't fill me with confidence. I'll be delighted to be proved wrong.

Kevin @24, whilst the Tories, have set up a commission to deal with the way Liverpool city council has been getting run for years, my own gut feeling is they are going to make a few of their own friends very rich in the process.

Liverpool is a much different place now, and I think it's certain that Bramley Moore dock, is going to be the catalyst, for the city, because there is just so much scope with regards to development and therefore massive investment, in this part of our city.

Tony

I do hope you are right. I agree that there is massive potential there. I just don't like the way this story has developed, first we had a problem but then we were reassured we were within the rules. Now we hear the PL are anxious to keep the government on side, and so may elbow us out of the nest to show willing. What makes me deeply suspicious is the keenness to get this deduction in this season when we are most vulnerable. That makes no sense, none of the other riders have suffered as a result of breaches which took place last year. In a fair world they would if we are guilty given us the deduction at the start of next season to give us a sporting chance of catching up. On the other hand, if they fast track this commission so that the deduction is squeezed into this season when we are fighting relegation, then this is deliberate.

So will I Paul! The phrase that worries me is.
"The club has, over several years provided the P/L with information in an open and transparent manner and has chosen to act with the utmost good faith at all times."
That bit would have looked a lot better if it had included "and our accounts have been audited and proved to be accurate" !

Tony, the point about what all of this is likely to do to benefit Liverpool is very much to the point. The container port is now apparently capable of servicing all but the 5% largest container ships so there is no reason why Liverpool should not resume its position as the major port for trade with North America, and indeed much of the rest of the world with the arrival of the CPTPP.

Moshiri appears to be looking for a way to be part of a major improvement in the city, and pissing him off with some kangaroo court based on some corrupt regulations (designed to make sure that certain mid table clubs - like the one who got hammered 4-1 by City today) ensure that no-one can buy their way to success.

If they really wanted to have a system - like American football - where there is a competitive and constantly changing challenge for success, they'd be better to put a cap on salaries and transfer budgets. Profits from clubs resulting from media and dreary European "competitions" would then have to go on facilities, training, shareholder dividends and so on, but the player pool would be available to all.

You might get a team which decided to put the lot into buying Haarland and Bellingham and paying them a large lump of the budget, you might get an Everton 1980s team with virtually no stars and a superb across the board squad.

What you would not get (if it was policed properly) would be a group of teams whose revenues were guaranteed always to be higher than their competitors, and penalties for those who tried debt financing to buy their way to success.

Totally agree Charles/ The clubs who had the advantage with money coming in, once the P/L started had (and still have a massive advantage. It would have been much fairer to have a salary cap.
The problems this has caused for most of the clubs who aren't loaded or don't have massive pulling power or both, get left further and further behind. I looke a few weeks ago at those clubs who fell out of the old first division and, subsequently, the Prem, well some have sunk without trace and some are languishing in the old 2nd and 3rd division. I don;t know if the rules can bwe changed by the clubs (or if they want to) but this situation will only bring forward this super league.

The Football Association Premier League Ltd (FAPL) is operated as a corporation and is owned by the 20 member clubs. Each club is a shareholder, with one vote each on issues such as rule changes and contracts. The clubs elect a chairman, chief executive, and board of directors to oversee the daily operations of the league.

The Football Association is not directly involved in the day-to-day operations of the Premier League, but has veto power as a special shareholder during the election of the chairman and chief executive and when new rules are adopted by the league.

Everton, according to their audited final accounts, are clearly in breach of the Profitability and Sustainability Rules. Everton have been working with the Premier League who have been monitoring their management accounts for some time. This has been reported as being on a real-time bases, mirroring proposed Government regulation. Many business are in a real-time monitoring situation for tax purposes. Therefore, the framework already exists.

Other clubs have written to the Premier League last year regarding Everton's finances, receiving assurances of compliance. As did all the other Premier League clubs. Everton's final audited accounts have shown this to be unfounded.

The Premier League's reported explanation according to the media is that there are material differences between Everton's unaudited management accounts and the audited final accounts.

Naturally, other Premier League clubs will want this investigated in this League season, especially those that are threatened with relegation if this is the case. Looking at the Premier League table, this could consist of half the clubs in the league.

Everton are being refered to an Independent Commission for breach of Profitability and Sustainability Rules.

There is no conspiracy. Everton have been run into the ground by incompetent club management and an inept owner. Aa owner who has poured money into a bottomless pit, without ensuring governance, accountability and competent management was in place.

This is still obvious in the final audited accounts going forward with the allowing of the Chairman's delusional narrative and a letter pledging another 㿲million. The same ejits that caused the problems are apparently going to robustly defend Everton at the Independent Commission.

You don't need a conspiracy theory to explain the problem!

Jerome, just as an aside of the mess we're in. It seems to have been the clubs who agreed top the PL rules own fault for allowing this P&S rule in. I'd have thought the explanation that it was introduced to save any of the clubs from going bust was either a red herring or crafty introduction to keep the so called big boys enjoying the cream of European competition. Without a wage cap, or similar, it is a built in advantage from the start.
As for our bloody board, and the Chairman who "guides" it? Well I agree. it's frightening to think they are going to "Robustly" defend our Club!
I just wondwered why you think there's inference by some that there's a conspiracy going on?

The problem started years ago when Chelsea who were just an average team got taken over by a Russian billionaire and were allowed to bring in players that practically most premier teams could not afford and this gave them the base to win various trophies and league titles.
This seemed OK by the league until M.City another average team were taken over by richer owners and went through the same process with the wealth they had acquired. Next comes Newcastle who were struggling against poss able relegation new excessively rich owners come in and they are competing for the top 4.
This has now become a 2 tier league where the bottom and mid table teams have to sell their better players just to compete and the top teams seen able to buy who they want without any sanctions.
It seems strange that a team near the top of the league are accused of the same infraction as Everton, are not asked to appear before an independent board but have a number of years before they will be heard.

Bill, prior to the Saudi takeover City had won the league just twice in over 100 years. They have now won it another 7 times. Football used to be about communities and people. Now global greed has taken over, where even a bang average (at best) players are multi millionaires by their mid twenties.

Like many I'm not as bothered with the game as much, it's hard to relate too. The only thing I want for Everton now is for Kenwright to piss off and take DBB and Sharp with him.

Joe

I fully agree with you and anyone else who wants to see this board removed, but my stand on this, and I was saying it before most supporters started to get onto the board, the major problem is Moshiri, he is the one who hired them and he is the one who can fire them, and the sooner the better.

Nothing to do with a witch hunt as others have said, but... I get the feeling that the PL is under pressure to prove it is policing the spending of clubs adequately.

Why pick us? Because we are a shit show and probably the easiest target in the Prem.

To take on Utd, Chelsea, City and others would take years and be very difficult to prove due to their massive revenue streams.

Poor old Everton... we're as fucked as a fucked thing from Fucksville in East Fuckshire.

All, let's stick together, and ride out these storms, impacting Everton Football Club.

Make the best of every day, and let's see Everton, survive this season, focus on the football playing side and supporting the club. Then...

Increasingly more concerning by the day, we all have own views, but let's influence what we can and focus on the positives.

UTFTs!

Lets not forget EFC's major role in creating the Premier League and all that's its wrought for football in this country. Our club and the dolts that ran it like Phillip Carter helped make the system that now looks like it could destroy our club for years to come in the worst case scenario.

We used to have great historic teams rooted in communities. We had money moving from the top clubs to those further down the pyramid and ensuring their survival in most cases. We had a structure that led to teams like Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest becoming Champions of Europe.

Our club helped destroy that rather than helping preserve the legacy — shame on them.

Jim #33,

My attitude is that Everton are wholly to blame for their situation and anything that deflects from that is a waste of time. The current regime will jump at anything to deflect blame – "goods timeS", shock and surprise at the referral – if they could align with a Premier League protest, they would.

As for your idea of conspiracy, I think it is real enough. Even when I looked up a definition of the Premier League on Wikipedia, the timeline trended from the Top 4 to the Top 6.

But Moshiri provided a shit load of money and the Everton Board achieved relegation status, so the underlining reason for the conspiracy has eluded Everton.

One of the problems with these P&S rules is that they don't necessarily equal the actual financial position.

For example, Usmanov might sponsor the training ground for a zillion pounds... but, while that's good enough for the tax office, it's not good enough for the Premier League who might claim it's not fair market value.

So basically, who knows whether we've broken the regulations? Our accounts alone aren't enough for us to determine it. After offsets, special circumstances and all sorts of shenanigans, we'll get the Premier League's interpretation.

It does surprise me that we might be in contravention given we've not really invested in the squad of late. If we're over the line, surely we're not the only ones. I know we carry dead wood on high wages but are we really that exceptional?

Just seems very typical of Everton. We'll be the only ones punished due to doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. You can't really argue with it when you've done the wrong thing in the first place, but it still feels unfortunate.

It would be so Everton to claw our way out of trouble when it once looked impossible... only for our board and owner to plunge us straight back in. I'm assuming they won't show their faces at Goodison for a while.

Seems the independent commission is moving at a pace, although Reading in Championship just been hit with 6 points deduction for not following the agreed business plan signed off by EFL. I see this as a precedent being set!!! Think we need to be 7 points clear of 3rd bottom at end of season. Scary times

Ian, the EFL independent panel, the CFRU, is not the same panel as the one set up by the EPL. This was Reading's second breach of profit and sustainability rules.

"Infamy, Infamy - they've all got it in for me"; 'Carry on Cleo' 1964

I don't know about you lot but I don't care what league we play in. I'm not a season ticket holder I'm more of a Danny O'Neil and get my tickets from friends of the family and other kind evertonians who can't go the game especially away games. I assume everyone who contributes on here either goes to the grounds to watch or watches via streaming etc. so if we were to be relegated would that somehow stop you doing what you love doing now ? It definitely wouldn't stop me and my circle of Everton fans.
The only reason the premiership is good for Everton and clubs like us is the money.
For us as a team it's been a mill stone around the clubs neck as we have wasted it on not very good players in the past.

Bobby @ 45; In a League awash with money And a Billionaire owner, we have somehow not got a pot to piss in...you couldn't make it up.