07/09/2023 166comments  |  Jump to last

Updated Just days after it looked as though Demarai Gray might stay at Everton after all, the player has now joined Al Ettifaq in an £8m deal, further depleting Sean Dyche's squad.

The manager was asked about Gray's future after Saturday's 2-2 draw at Sheffield United and he indicated that he expected the former Bayer Leverkusen man to stay following the closure of the British transfer window and the collapse of his proposed move to Al Shabag in the Saudio Pro League.

However, in the interim it emerged that rivals Al Ettifaq had come in with an offer which was initially rejected by Everton who were apparently concerned by the lack of numbers in their squad following further departures on deadline day.

The player, though, was keen to make the move and his decision to post an image to Instagram complaining that it was hard to play for someone who doesn't "show you respect as a person" prompted Dyche to respond publicly himself in an interview on evertonfc.com yesterday in which he criticised Gray for trying to push through a move away from Goodison Park.

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The events of the past few days essentially made the relationship between the pair untenable and left the club with little option but to acquiesce and agree to Gray's sale once they had received a suitable offer from Al Ettifaq. That was concluded on Wednesday with his departure from Everton finally announced on Thursday, 7 September.

The Saudi outfit, managed by former Aston Villa boss, Steven Gerrard, reportedly had an offer accepted yesterday and with Gray having now passed a medical and agreed terms on a four-year deal, his departure has all but been confirmed after two years with the Toffees since he was signed from the Bundesliga for just £1.7m.

Writing on his Instagram account after the move was announced, Gray said: “After two years with Everton, it’s time to say goodbye.

“I wish everyone at the club the very best and will be forever proud to have played for this great team. To the fans, you were always incredible – thank you for your support. You made it a privilege to wear the shirt.

“There has been a lot of speculation about my situation all summer. The truth is, I gave my all to this club on and off the pitch through good and bad. I was ready to play as much as football as possible this season but it felt like this was not going to happen.

“It’s time for my next chapter. I am match fit and excited to get playing.”


Reader Comments (166)

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Joe McMahon
1 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:24:37
£8 million seems very low, considering the fees paid over there.

Harrison still injured for several weeks and McNeil just back from injury yet again leaves us light.

He wasn't being played anyway though, but it seems like yet again Everton loss.

Barry Hesketh
2 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:31:02
Joe @ 1,

Expenditure on Gray: £1.7M, receipt for his sale: £8M, which results in a profit of £5.3M, plus the savings on whatever wages he would have taken between now and the end of his contract.

As Michael one of the editors of this site observed, on another thread, all Premier League teams have to submit a list of 25 players; some have double that number to choose from, some like us don't.

As you noted, Gray wouldn't have got more than a place on the bench, so his leaving the club is hardly leaving us light.

Joe McMahon
3 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:36:05
You are correct, Barry, but considering the buyers, for once I was hoping it would be buy low, sell extremely high (Brighton model).
Phil Malone
4 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:38:33
£8M! Wasn't the fee being mentioned at £15M? Are the Saudi fees for players lower for us because Sean Dyche is the manager?

If that's the case, fair enough. Nothing to do with him, just wanted to get a "Dyche Out" comment in because I've watched Everton for 40 years and haven't seen a more tactically inept manager at the helm of our club.

The players that turned us down twice, once for the club and once for the fact that they wouldn't be allowed to play football after 10 minutes of a tactic not working. If they're not 8'-7" and can't head the ball they're fooked. That's why we have 7 keepers on the bench.

Barry Hesketh
5 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:38:46
I suppose we should have expected to have sold Gray for at least half of the valuation of the Egyptian across the park!
Peter Hodgson
6 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:48:14
Good riddance. We wouldn't have got much out of him if he had stayed. I hope Gerrard is pleased with him when he shows him how he only plays when he feels like it. One deserving case deserves another, so they say. He is not a team player.

Not as much profit as was hoped for but a decent amount nonetheless.

Paul O'Neill
7 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:51:46
£6.3 million profit plus he's off the wage bill.

Showed flashes of being great and in a way it's a shame, but it seems his attitude is off and he wasn't playing anyway. Let's move on.

Allen Rodgers
8 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:52:45
Barry @ 2, isn't the profit £6.3m ? Still a bargain.
Barry Hesketh
9 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:54:37
Yeah, Allen, I was making allowances for the Arteta sofa. :)
Grigoris Teras
10 Posted 06/09/2023 at 15:57:50
What a career. Failed to become a regular where ever he played and then off to a tin pot league. Good riddance.
Bryan Houghton
11 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:00:18
I'm getting really tired of forum members banging on about last week's bench not having enough players on it - "should have filled it with U21s blah bloody blah".

I can only assume that most of these comments are made by fans who have never coached or managed a team before.

The bench should only ever be used by people who are fit and able to play. It has to be that way because, if you're named on the bench, it has to mean you're good enough to be there – not cos the gaffer likes you, or it's your bloody turn – but because you've trained your bollocks off to be good enough.

It is the clearest message Sean Dyche can send to all the players – if you are in the matchday squad, whether starting or on the bench - it is only because you are good enough, and ready enough. "Work hard with a professional commitment to succeed" has to be the message – to everyone, especially the younger players.

If the squad is so poor that there isn't enough fit and able players to select from, that ain't down to Dyche.

Mike Gaynes
12 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:03:37
Bryan #11, amen.
Allen Rodgers
13 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:10:05
Yes, Barry, we'll put it down to other operating costs!
Phil Malone
14 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:13:13
Bryan, lol, dear me. Empty spaces on the bench should be an incentive for younger players to be there and have the match day experience to aid in their development. Even if they don’t come on. And despite your vast knowledge on who has and has not coached from our fan forum, maybe don’t insult people’s opinion because it’s not yours.
Mike Corcoran
15 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:16:43
Where will he sit? The bench will already be toastie over there...😁
Raymond Fox
16 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:16:53
Phil 4,

You might have watched Everton for 40 years, but it sounds like you've not learned a great deal about the game in that time. We have simply not played up-and-under football in the time Dyche has been here.

Phil Malone
18 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:35:29
15 minutes into the Doncaster game when he ran out of ideas, Raymond?
Mark Tanton
19 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:35:32
Bite their hands off.

He won't outlast Dyche and they won't make up so take the money and run a mile.

Dale Self
20 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:35:57
So we had some U21 players who did not get selected for a place in that 11 and some suggest they should leapfrog to the Everton bench? All because Dyche is letting some players who could start know where the bar is now and that they aren't meeting those expectations?

Well obviously the correct approach is to take the side of a pretender primadonna and create enough noise so that buying clubs can lowball an offer. Given Iwobi went for £22M, let's hear specific comparisons that make £10M for Gray a loss somehow.

Wait, check ‘somehow'. I'm actually tired of made up premises for pissy football polemics. Make your case if you think this was a bad deal and let's go from there. Thelwell in Excelsius!

Tony Everan
21 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:47:57
Another £8m into the bank, another couple of million wages saved.

I'd like to see some sort of statement now about where all the sales and wages saved money is going. Are all the revenues being used to reduce debt, stored for squad strengthening? Or is Mr Moshiri going to take it all out and leave the club in a worse position than before the sales? Or is the sole intention to make the club a more viable and stable investment to any interested buyers?

The whole future and direction of the club hinges on the answers to these questions so it would be nice to hear something.

Hopefully Paul ‘the Esk' will pen an article giving his take on the post-window financial situation. As Kevin posted yesterday, we all should be alarmed at the situation and need some answers and reassurances.

If you read this, I hope you are feeling better, Paul.

Steve Brown
22 Posted 06/09/2023 at 16:56:18
With Gray's transfer fee, that will be £188 million from sales in the last 12 months and £40 million off the wage bill.

Where can all that swag be, as it definitely isn't in Thelwell's transfer budget?

Paul Kossoff
23 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:00:19
Slippy G's team. Tell them £20million or Fuck Off.

Is this the lowest fee the Arabs have paid for a signing? Probably… knowing us.

Paul Kossoff
24 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:02:55
We now wait and hold our breath for one of our wingers to get a long-term injury.

We would have been better keeping him to help keep us in the Premier League.

Andy Crooks
25 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:13:37
Bryan @ 11, as a matter of interest, what teams have you coached or managed?
Alex Whitehead
26 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:18:24
He doesn't want to stay and play for us…

Simple — Get Shut!!
Ian Jones
27 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:31:59
Apologies, this is completely off-topic.

I was looking for an old thread from years ago that I commented on and I saw Phil Walling's name on the thread.

Does anyone know what happened to Phil? Used to find his comments entertaining.

This is an excerpt of one of Phil's comments from 2015-16 season... life hasn't quite worked out like that:

'...the policy of signing 'no-marks' which you laud has not proved itself at Everton where Moyes's unheralded sixthish rapidly declined to an eleventhish norm under his successor. And that was with 'the magic' of Lukaku, Stones and Barkley there to aid them.

Having said that, I see no reason why, given time, Koeman can't build a 'New Southampton' here and thus restore the relative success of the Moyes years.

Of course, it's not what we dreamed of in the early 'Mosh Dosh' days but hey, we all got carried away at the talk of £millions to spend. What we longed for was a Godfather of the Fairy variety rather than the emissary of the Russian species we ended up with.

Again, it's a call for patience, dear friends. And Evertonians have that in abundance!

Ted Roberts
28 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:39:55
As a recent newcomer to this site, I am enjoying reading the posts of people who have a greater in-depth knowledge of the club, and football in general, than I do.

I fell in love with the Blues in 1966 when I was at the tender age of 10, still agog with seeing England win the World Cup and mesmerised by the legendary Harvey, Kendall and beloved Ball; it was the apparent passion that these lads (and many more since) played with, and wore the badge with unwavering pride.

Now, since the inauguration of the Premier League and the belittling of the once domestic holy grail (The FA Cup), the emphasis is entirely focused on perpetual success, mind-numbing moneyspeak, and unbelievable managerial pressure for European Glory and total world domination.

I find myself lost for words at the extent of what really goes on behind the scenes with ownership, management and player mutiny, big business corruption and the VAR!!!

Thank you for all your posts. I will read them with interest and hope that “Once a Blue, Always a Blue” will always mean something, preferably in the dizzy heights of the Premier League but, if not, then in football generally

Remember, if it wasn't for the founding members, we would have nothing to talk about, swear about, get frustrated about… but still be madly in love with!!!

Lee Courtliff
29 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:40:29
Whatever happened to Eugene Ruane too? And that other guy who hated Moyes, can't think of his name but he was infamous on here for a few years.

Anyway, it's a shame it's ended like this as Demarai was an excellent signing for us, given the fee. Half a dozen goals each season and a couple of huge assists against Chelsea then Palace under Lampard.

Good luck to him.

Mike Doyle
30 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:42:42
We seem so desperate to raise cash, the reality is we would probably have taken any figure offered.

Like a couple of other posters on other threads, it wouldn't be a surprise to see another sale in the January window – particularly if no new investment arrives.

Let's hope we are still in business in January.

Ian Jones
31 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:55:52
Lee, I spotted an old post from someone who says that they won't go to the new stadium if Bill Kenwright is still Chairman.

I'll bring that to their attention if the beloved Chairman is still with us.

I'm sure we are all prone to making unfortunate statements.

Someone else once posted that due to the Chairman's ill-health, perhaps fans ought to club together and get a plane flying across Goodison with a 'get well' banner.

That someone else was me. If I posted that now, the reaction to that suggestion would probably get me a lifetime ban from ToffeeWeb.

I meant well at the time!

Andy Meighan
32 Posted 06/09/2023 at 17:57:40
£8 million that will disappear into the same hole as the Gordon money.

The Saudis offering £150M for a 31-year-old albeit great striker across the park while we are offered £8M for a decent player who, if he played for any other club, would have gone for double that.

Then again… look who's in charge of our transfer dealings.

And all from his sick bed as well.

Jimmy Hogan
33 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:03:01
Once again the club are made to look like complete amateurs. Why have Dyche saying yesterday that no-one moves without the club's say so, only to do a complete volte face today?
John Raftery
34 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:03:35
The amount gathered from this year's sales goes some way to compensating for the losses during the pandemic when we were unable to generate funds from the sale of players.

That may be one of the arguments put to the independent commission hearing on 25th October. At the very least, the club should be able to evidence greater financial rectitude under the current regime than hitherto.

Phil (4), So you have watched Everton since 1983 and not seen a more tactically inept manager at the helm. That's some statement.

I've watched Everton since 1962 and seen every manager make mistakes, even those with stellar reputations and much stronger squads than we have at present. What really matters is whether a manager can identify what is not working and find solutions.

In this regard, Howard Kendall in his prime was a master of his craft. Frank Lampard, Marco Silva and Mike Walker demonstrably were not during their time with us.

Sean Dyche, with one of the weakest groups of players in our history, has shown an ability to mobilise limited talents, generate attacking performances, and deliver positive results. The 5-1 win at Brighton was evidence of what he can do when most of the key members of the squad are available.

Following the arrival of Beto and Danjuma and the return from injury of McNeil and Calvert-Lewin, the manager will have more options in attack. I think he may surprise some fans with how flexibly he deploys his resources. I believe he will do so very effectively.

Kevin Prytherch
35 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:14:16
On the subject of player behaviour…

We should be able to fine Dele Alli for his parking incident for blatant disregard of the law and bringing the club's name into disrepute.

Tom Bowers
36 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:21:54
Thank God this puts an end to the matter.

By staying, he would have been disgruntled and not much use on the field. Everton are having to look at others in the club who are arguably of no use to the squad.

Although we seem to be light in numbers, it is hoped they stay fit enough to be competitive until things improve.

Ray Roche
37 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:24:00
Interesting piece on BBC Website about net spend over the last 10 years.

We're 16th, just above Palace.

Chris James
38 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:46:51
Just above Palace, Ray? I'll take that now!

Oh... 'net spend'.

Geoff Lambert
39 Posted 06/09/2023 at 18:58:45
Kevin #35,

"Fine Dele Alli for his parking incident."

Get a life.

Danny O’Neill
40 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:00:29
Well, a shame he had to leave in this way. Disappointing.

I guess I have two main recollections. His darting run and goal against Brighton away. And his delivery for Calvert-Lewin to get on the end of that goal against Palace.

Sad that it came to this, but he's moving on and we move on.

Arsenal next week and it's my Birthday.

Mark Taylor
41 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:08:05

If you look up the source of that chart, they also give top spenders and recipients for 2023. We are in the top 20 of net recipients of funds. Not sure how accurate their data is, but they claim our outgoings have been €56M and our receipts €129M.

I'd love to see a breakdown, they both seem a bit high and given my understanding is we've paid very little upfront for our incoming, I suspect don't correlate exactly with the flow of cash.

But what this indicates is that we have had a net income from transfers of €73M so far this year (maybe exclusing the Gray money?). I imagine that will include the Gordon money in January 2023 and maybe also Kean.

I'm not holding my breath on seeing this deployed in January 2024. Given our failure to attract finance, I suspect it's all gone into the stadium. It's probably the only way they can keep the work continuing. But that won't last forever given the declared funding shortfall.

Some drone pics of work intensity inside the stadium would be very revealing over the coming months. My hunch is if we don't get another investor, the opening will be pushed back (or worse). Either that or we are forced to sell Pickford or Onana.

I have a very, very bearish view on our financial position. Bankruptcy is not out of the question.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
42 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:16:54
Demarai Gray — 10 goals in every 485 minutes on the pitch.
Theo Walcott — 10 goals in every 458 minutes on the pitch.

Moaned a lot about the latter.

I acknowledge, one bought for £20M and sold for nowt, the other bought for under £2M and sold for £8M.

Dale Self
44 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:34:36
Jimmy 33,

I believe you have that exactly wrong. Dyche didn't say anything until he knew it wouldn't affect a deal. The deal was likely a 99% thing before they considered making a statement on behalf of the club.

Bill Fairfield
45 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:36:05
Seems like Gray got his move after all.

But be warned: the club hold all the aces, according to the manager anyway… laughable.

Barry Hesketh
46 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:38:18
I really can't believe that people are still wondering where all the money from transfer fees received is going. Many, many posters have highlighted that MSP were going to 'invest' via a loan a sum of £50M or perhaps a mere £30M; they didn't in the end.

That caused the club severe financial issues as that money would have helped the club with day-to-day costs and perhaps a bit towards fees for incoming players.

In the end, we had to sell Iwobi, Gray and others to make up the short-fall from the failed MSP loan, and then had to persuade the clubs that we were purchasing players from to defer payment until next year.

This has nothing to do with Profitability and Sustainability Rules, it has everything to do with a business that has been so badly mismanaged that it is struggling to keep its head above water.

If a solution to the cash-flow issues isn't found and soon, there may be no need to worry about where the cash has gone, as we might all be more concerned about where the club has gone.

David Cooling
47 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:38:59
It might deplete the squad, but I don't think he was that good.

I'd rather Dobbin is given minutes than someone who doesn't want to be here.

Brian Harrison
48 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:44:34
I think to spend £750 million on a new stadium is a colossal commitment for any club – let alone a club who, since embarking on this project, can no longer rely on its main benefactor.

Also, as everybody is aware, we have spent a small fortune on players and managers and we are awaiting an independent commission next month as to if we have broken any rules and if so what punishment we will face.

Obviously we have borrowed £200 million from Rights and Media Funding and £100 million from MSP. Also, don't forget these amounts borrowed will all have to be paid back with interest. So, unless Moshiri is willing to pump more money into the pot, which doesn't look likely, then maybe more player sales may be needed to help finish the stadium.

The only other option would be a complete buyout of the club, but that would require someone with extremely deep pockets, not only to buy out Moshiri but they would need to pump in money for player transfers.

The problem is that we aren't the most attractive proposition for anybody to spend the vast sums that are needed, and there are a lot better options in the Premier League than Everton, and ones that won't be in danger of relegation which is a big no-no for an investor.

So I don't know how we get out of the mess other than hoping that Dyche can again avoid another relegation battle, which by that time, the stadium should be complete, which is our one golden asset.

Billy Bradshaw
49 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:46:29
Mark @ 41,

I thought MSP had committed £100 million towards the cost of finishing the ground?

Robert Tressell
50 Posted 06/09/2023 at 19:55:46
John #34, agree with all of that.

Fair enough, you don't like Dyche, Phil, but plainly his tactics aren't the up-and-under you're pretending they are.

So far Dyche's tactical approach seems most similar to Royle and Moyes (and even Ancelotti and Benitez). It's basically a non-possession based counter-attack - which remains a very effective approach especially if you're light on talent compared with the opposition. It's also quite clever how he orchestrates it, using a higher defensive line than most of us (including me) were probably expecting.

After his work last season with a wretched squad, I'd place Dyche tactically (and generally) ahead of Kendall Mark II and III, Walker, Smith, Koeman and Lampard. I'm too young to have experienced Kendall Mark I and can't really remember Harvey.

Martinez and Silva were decent tacticians with a more possession-based approach but certainly had their flaws too, let's be honest. We don't yet know how Dyche will compare to them, but I think his tactics are a good fit for the squad right now. We'll see that more, I expect, as the season unfolds and the likes of Beto, Danjuma, Harrison and McNeil have a chance to play together.

Craig Walker
51 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:10:07
Ian and Lee: Was the massive Moyes fan called Richard Dodd? I might have got that wrong.

Used to love those MOB vs IMWT debates. Back in the day when we moaned about only being a Top 7 side and Leon Osman was some people's boo boy. God, how far we've fallen!

Still love ToffeeWeb and reading from its amazing contributors.

Dave Abrahams
52 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:13:27
Quite a few fans are expecting a lot from Danjuma, I think he will get us out of seats at times but possibly frustrate us more often.

Only two games and a 30-minute sub slot but I have my doubts about him, maybe too early to make a sound judgement.

Iain Johnston
53 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:13:35
Paul O'Neil.

The profit is £7.4M. His amortised liability to the club is now roughly £600k drawn down over the 3-year contract he signed.

Kieran Kinsella
54 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:14:36
Net spend on players is deceptive.

Let's say you are Man Utd and bring in £600 million in revenue. You could if you wanted, spend £50 million in cash to buy one player and pay the whole thing as a one-time transaction.

We know two things about Everton, one being every year we post a massive loss so presumably we don't have cash on hand to do that. Number two, rather than borrowing from reputable banks, we borrow from LLCs set up as holding companies by a guy from Riverdance to obscure the origins or offshore loans from shadowy loan sharks in tax havens outside British jurisdiction.

So, for example, Onana may cost £33 million over 5 years with staggered payments. But we are funding that with money from the shady lenders. That money accrues huge interest. In reality, Onana cost whatever the cost of borrowing the money to buy him was as opposed to the price agreed with his old club.

Due to our bad credit rating, it costs us much more to borrow than others, not even taking into account the savings of those with actual cash.

Denver Daniels
55 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:17:46
The fee seems low, especially for that league. We now have Danjuma who is pretty much a like-for-like replacement so this makes sense. Could have used 1 or 2 more in case of injuries as the bench looks thin.

I'd be happy if we got Andros Townsend back on a 6- or 12-month deal. Solid pro, good pace, scores the odd goal, decent delivery on free-kicks and crosses. Young and Garner have been atrocious in that regard.

Andrew Ellams
56 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:20:03
Lee @ 29. Eugene popped up briefly on the deadline day live forum.

Would the other bloke be Tony Marsh?

Craig Walker
57 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:22:22
I thought Tony Marsh was more negative on Moyes. I thought it was Richard Dodd. I might be wrong.
Danny O’Neill
58 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:23:57
John Raftery, in my living memory, it has to be Mike Walker. I think Neville Southall called him out. But then he would call anyone out!!! It's probably why he never gets invited to Goodison Park.

I'm probably just a bit young to assess Gordon Lee, although I remember those years. I was just interested in watching the football back then and didn't analyse managers. I seem to remember Billy Bingham not being too popular, especially towards the end of his tenure. But I was even younger then and just listened to my dad's rants.

It was sad to see Howard Kendal Mk II and definitely Mark III, but he was given a hospital pass, especially his last one when he came back when no one else would touch us. Obviously there were other reasons, but the club threw him under the bus.

Martinez, whose appointment worried me, but then surprised me in that first season, but then my fears came home to roost and his tactics scared the shit out of me.

I don't mind admitting that Dyche wouldn't have been my first choice. But he is doing a steady job under difficult circumstances and knows what he is dealing with. A straight talker as well. Keeping the team away from the circus.

And right now, he is the only person from the club communicating to the supporters and facing them every match. It doesn't quite have the ring of Bobby Brown Shoes, but Sean Black Shoes. Always suited. Simple things, but that tells me he tries to set standards.

As I keep saying, I've long given up blaming managers for where we are. There is a deeper root cause.

See you all soon. A frustrating weekend with these irritating internationals, but the week after, we're back.

Kevin Molloy
59 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:28:20

It is difficult to get a handle on the exact ins and outs. The key point for me is that he's not even made £4M available to sign Coady.

We are on the thinnest of thin ice. If either centre-back gets an injury, we lose games until they are back. That tells me, along with the fact he's no longer offering loans himself to the club, that he's not putting one penny piece into the club.

On the contrary, he is extracting the maximum of value to the huge detriment of the squad. My guess is that, when the next payment to the builder falls due, the ground works will be paused indefinitely until a suitable buyer presents. Last one took 20 years to arrive, when we had a lot more going for us.

And not a peep has he deigned to inform us of. This is what happens when you sell to gangsters, Bill.

Adam Oakensworth
60 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:43:31
I believe Profitability and Sustainability Rules mean that, when it comes to losses, clubs cannot exceed £105 million across a rolling period of three seasons.

Seeing as we reportedly made losses of around £350M in 2020-21, it shouldn't be that surprising that we had to be net positive this summer. Whether or not Moshiri is using the money for the new stadium (capital costs which are separate from P&S Rules), the club probably needed to save around £200M last year and this year (allowing for some extra covid allowances) to not breach P&S Rules again.

Conspiracy theories about the owner not wanting to put any more money into transfers are kind of irrelevant as there is no other option.

Justin Doone
61 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:53:12
A money bags league that can't pay clubs and players enough... yet Everton get ripped off.

Transfer window is closed, the only loser here is Everton. Say no! No chance until January. We then want £20M paid upfront.

If Gray goes on strike, let him. Fine him 2 weeks wages every week until he is sold or makes himself available.

If I demand a free season ticket, do you think I'd get one?

The board have run us into financial ruin and yet are still willing to wipe off tens of millions of pounds on player valuations.

The board doesn't listen to its own fans and yet bends over for its competitors. That's why we want Moshiri out, he and those he has put in charge are clueless.

Barry Hesketh
62 Posted 06/09/2023 at 20:58:00
Adam @60

We're not trying to be 'net spend' positive solely to be the right side of P&S, we're being 'net spend' positive, because there's no ready cash available to spend. MSP's loan of £100m is funding a tranche of the stadium build, right here, right now. Players have been sold so that the club can continue to pay its staff and everyday bills.

Why dream up scenarios when the obvious situation is staring everybody in the face? Moshiri has effectively walked away from the club and will only fund it if it is an emergency situation. Even then, he's more prone for the club to borrow its way out of trouble, but the credit rating is so poor, it will cost an arm and a leg to service that debt.

If you have evidence of anything different taking place, by all means share it with us, we're all desperate for some semblance of order in this chaotic mess we find ourselves in.

Adam Oakensworth
63 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:03:18
Barry @62,

I think you're missing my point. Even if a new owner came in with incredibly deep pockets, they would not be allowed to spend anything right now given our P&S position resulting from the massive over-spending that occurred within the previous 3 years.

I'm not giving an opinion on what Moshiri is doing or why he is doing it a) because I have no idea, and b) because it's a moot point.

Danny O’Neill
64 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:20:20
Sorry, minor point.

We are not subject to UEFA FFP.

Splitting hairs maybe, but it's Premier League Profitability & Sustainability Rules.

OCD apologies.

Christopher Timmins
65 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:36:58

You have correctly made this point previously.

We cannot afford to have anyone on site who is not committed to the cause. A small group with a siege mentality might just get us through.

Hopefully some day we will have to concern ourselves with FFP.

Graham Fylde
66 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:37:20
Hi Adam, I don't believe the current P&S period includes 20-21 - (23-24, 22-23, 21-22) and I honestly don't think P&S is the main restriction.

Moshiri has run out of money or access to it, debt is already large so difficult to increase at rates that aren't eye-watering (I haven't seen the purported MSP £100M loan land yet but alone it isn't enough) and the R&M funding restrictive clauses mean expanding equity is difficult.

Moshiri hasn't walked away, he's run out of viable options and is, presumably, working on Plan X as we speak. Personally, I think it has to include sale but at what price? If he cobbles together more debt, expect project 'sell assets' to continue… until there's no assets!

Justin Doone
67 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:43:23
I said this a few seasons ago. Spend huge sums in one season to build a quality team and squad. Don't struggle, don't try and remain within limits, do a Chelsea and spend, spend, spend.

Take the fine, take the points deduction but at least we would have been in a better footballing situation.

Surely a club can only be charged once for such huge losses, not for the subsequent 2 seasons if they haven't made profits to reduce one season's loses to under £105M?

In trying to play fair financially, we have failed massively both on and off the pitch. What for?

Adam Oakensworth
68 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:53:50
Graham that's a fair point, I wasn't sure when the financial year for P&S starts and ends so was assuming that some of the 2021 losses would count. Either way, I agree that he has run out of options.

Probably wishful thinking on my part but, after seeing what Boehly has done at Chelsea, he may be doing the only thing possible to make us a more saleable asset by freeing up spending restrictions so a new owner isn't hamstrung by not being able to enter the transfer market should they choose to.

The Americans seem to think Premier League clubs are massively undervalued so maybe one will see a new stadium and a freedom to buy new players as a long-term investment opportunity…

Justin Doone
69 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:59:49
There's surely not too many stupid multi-billionaires left to buy Everton. But all are welcome!
Robert Tressell
70 Posted 06/09/2023 at 21:59:58
Justin, there's quite a few big reasons why we won't do what you suggest.

1. No-one involved in the club has the sort of money to do a big (£250M to £500M?) spending spree

2. No-one involved in the club wants to spend a single penny on transfers (hence us selling more than we buy for a while)

3. If we get a points deduction this season, we will almost certainly be relegated

4. We're so far adrift that even spending £250M might only give us something like the 8th best squad, so it's a bit pointless.

5. No expensive players worth having would want to join Everton. Only very expensive average players would join us, who then deteriorate in value. We've been down that path before, turning expenditure on Schneiderlin, Bolasie, Allan, Walcott, Tosun etc into nothing at all.

There's no shortcut. We've hopefully stabilised the squad to the degree that we can now move into the player development game. Our future lies in finding more Branthwaites and (hopefully) Chermitis, and developing the likes of Patterson and Garner.

Graham Fylde
71 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:12:41
I know what you mean, Adam, hard not to see it as our historic club, in the best league in the world, brand new stadium on the banks of the Mersey – someone would pay a fortune surely.

Truth is we have a half-built stadium without (at present) the £350M needed to finish it, a threadbare squad that will struggle to stay in the Premier League, and debt up to our ears. I wonder how Moshiri is getting on with his new plan?

Ted Roberts
72 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:20:09
I can't help worrying that all this talk of finances by you guys that seem to be able to follow all the ins and outs and debt info, is heading in the direction of declaration of bankruptcy in the not-too-distant future and that we could be going in the same direction of the Bolton, Wigan and Derby “Businesses” of late.

Is this a true reflection of what I am reading here? And if so, would there be any real fixes for the mess that has been allowed to develop?? Or has that point been surpassed???

Mark Taylor
73 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:25:57
Billy @49

Given the total silence from the owner and board, I have no idea if that £100M ever hit the bank account but I personally doubt it.

I think we may still have the intermediate loan from their UK representatives, but even that is not certain and, if it hasn't been repaid (very unlikely) or simply not happened, I imagine it is attracting punitively high interest. More likely, it has already gone into the stadium to keep work going. In any case, it is several hundred million light of what is needed and will run out within 6 months or so.

If there is no new investor, and that seems unlikely, we will run out of cash in the first half of next year at the latest. At which point,, either work on the stadium stops, we sell our best players, or we go into administration (which will result in us selling our best players anyway).

In this case, silence is not golden in my view. I think we are staring down the cashflow barrel. I think it will need Moshiri to accept he needs to take a very, very big bath on his investment before he finds it's worth next to nothing.

It wouldn't even surprise me that much if there weren't conversations going on to see if the stadium we have half-built has any asset value outside EFC.

Mark Taylor
74 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:40:38
To add to my last post, I think we also need to ask ourselves if Moshiri truly was independently wealthy.

He was a jobbing accountant at Deloitte. They might amass millions but not billions. He got that from working for Usmanov.

But he is not an entrepreneur, just a numbers man (and seemingly not that good at it either, in relation to running a football club). 98% of whatever he has is not from remuneration for a job but from Usmanov channelling some of his wealth through him.

Whether such largesse is truly 'a gift' or comes with strings, we will never know. Obviously that is all off now and maybe Alisher wants some of his money back. Hence our dire straits.

As I say, we will never know about those obligations but I wonder if Kenwright does...

Brendan McLaughlin
75 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:41:07
Mark #73,

When news broke of the MSP investment in the club coming to naught, it was widely reported that the £100 million in respect of the new stadium would still happen.

I haven't seen anything which suggested otherwise at the time or since.

Dave Evans
76 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:46:33
Gray is going to the Saudi Pro League because of the money and because he will be seen as a good player in that league.

No Premier League club wanted him because he isn't a very good player in the Premier League.

Jamie Crowley
77 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:49:17
This is a good move. Our return on investment on Gray is through the roof.

He certainly doesn't want to be here.

Dyche certainly doesn't want him here.

TaTa, Demarai. Well done, Everton.

In the words of Dale Self:

Thelwell in Excelsius!

Jamie Crowley
78 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:52:52
Mark Taylor -

I will bet that if we stay up until the new stadium is built, Moshri will sell within a year. He'll clear the debt and cash in on an improved asset.

Hopefully we will get the money-daddy owner then that pours his / her emotion and soul into Everton Football Club.

Until that time, pray we stay up.

Tom Bowers
79 Posted 06/09/2023 at 22:57:04
Regarding all the managers at the club since the days of Johnny Carey, very few have been ''successful''.

Catterick did well for a quite a few years with the backing of Moores but, after 1970, it was a constant stream of wannabees until Kendall and since then some high profile managers have flopped for various reasons – although Moyes did create a somewhat competitive squad for many years under difficult circumstances without frightening many of the money clubs.

I think Dyche is like Moyes and, given the chance, will pull this club around but the financial woes will prevent him from making them more than a mid-table team at best.

Brendan McLaughlin
80 Posted 06/09/2023 at 23:06:30
Ouch, Tom #79

"I think Dyche is like Moyes."

Sean's on thin enough ice without you making things more difficult.

Dale Self
81 Posted 06/09/2023 at 23:27:18
Easy Jamie ;), they hate it when I do that, which is kind of why I did it. I hate bringing love forum tactics in here but they have been quite rude to the man. I haven’t seen many TWers reset and there is no question about the job done.

And Brendan, place that trick after a few posts in between when we look directly above and see the rest of the quote, well.

Dan Parker
82 Posted 07/09/2023 at 00:43:48
I know we have no squad depth but this is good. Need rid of characters that could spread discontent no matter how
It led to that. Dyche has my backing, whole different story to how Benitez chased players out.
Mark Taylor
83 Posted 07/09/2023 at 01:01:28
Brendan @75,

I think it is hard to be certain about the current situation, given radio silence. There were indeed reports that MSP were at least going to loan £100M. There were also reports, before the minority share stake was abandoned, that their UK reps were advancing some or all of that money. What we don't know for sure is what actually hit the account and if any did, whether that has since been converted to an MSP loan (and on what terms).

Jamie @78,

Whether we stay up or not, I think we will run out of money long before we find out. It's a shame Paul the Esk is not around for his (better) insights, but I'd guess that happens around February or March next year.

Either way, the sum involved is nothing like enough to complete the stadium, based on what Moshiri himself said was needed. Based on the latest estimates, I think we are still £200-300M light. Some of that seems to be being met by player sales but, even so, if the stadium is supposed to complete late 2024, and based on a roughly equal phasing for payment, the cash runs out a good 6-9 months before completion.

Hold onto your (hard) hats!!!

Mike Gaynes
84 Posted 07/09/2023 at 01:03:27
Jamie and Dale, have you noticed that Thelwell's biggest fans seem to be on our side of the pond?
Ed Prytherch
85 Posted 07/09/2023 at 01:07:38
The stadium and the club are separate entities. I don't believe that player sales are funding stadium construction.
Dupont Koo
86 Posted 07/09/2023 at 01:55:31
With our necks on others' hands (adding to further insult, that's Gerrad's pair of Red Shite Hands), getting £8M for an expiring contract and potential cancer in the dressing room (Gray is not a natural one, but an event-driven one in this case) is actually a good addition through subtraction.

A lot of managers (Dyche included) prefer to keep players that they don't fancy to make up a number that they are comfortable with (be it for training purposes or simply for their own comfort). More often than not, that pains the DoFs because that might represent missed chances to cash out on assets on hand. If Gray is not sold before the Saudi deadline, that would be another sad example of these situations.

Juventus have 2 general rules on Transfers: 1) Unless a player is a club legend in the level of Big Dunc, Dixie or Kendall (eg, Del Piero, Chiellini), all players would be sold before their 30th birthday; 2) All the sub-30-years-old players would not be allowed to have their contracts run down to expiry and they will be sold no later than a season before their expiry.

I see Gray's case as our gradual reckoning and move towards competent, modern player trading.

Dyche is not going to play him anyway, so IMHO that is not a loss at all.

Tony Abrahams
87 Posted 07/09/2023 at 07:25:21
When you hear a manager taking his hat off to his director of football, then it must mean that they must be perfectly aligned (even if it's because they're both banging their heads against the wall) so that is one of the only positives that I can take out of the club right now. Moving forward (hopefully) this is a really big positive though.

It's very frustrating because I keep hearing that Moshiri is speaking to an American investment group (not 777 Partners) that want to buy Everton, lock, stock & barrel, but nothing seems to be happening, considering they have been interested for a very long time.

Would Evertonians play dirty with regards to what Mark says
@74? I don't think it's our style, and even though it's our football club, I'm not sure many of us were brought up this way!

Eric Myles
88 Posted 07/09/2023 at 07:43:15
If, as reported, he couldn't hack it in Germany, being away from his family, then he won't last long in Saudi Arabia unless they're going with him.
Eric Myles
89 Posted 07/09/2023 at 07:48:06
Phil #4, maybe more to do with the buying manager than the selling manager?
Eric Myles
90 Posted 07/09/2023 at 07:57:31
Barry #2, Paul #7, Allen #8.

In the topic of profit on player sales, I often cite the Roubinho move from Man City.

Bought for £32 million, sold for £16 million and City booked £18 million profit to their accounts.

Now if we've bought Gray for £1.7 million and sold him for £8 million, our profit should be much better than £6.3 million on the same basis.

Maybe some accountants among us can run the numbers?

Michael Kenrick
91 Posted 07/09/2023 at 08:16:23
Ed @85,

I'd have to offer up some alternative wording as I think you might have taken the 'split' a little too far.

The stadium development company is a separate entity that is wholly owned by the club. Player sales could be funding stadium construction to the extent that they are a source of income for the club as a whole, which is ultimately paying for the stadium construction, along with everything else involved in running a Premier League football club.

Eric Myles
92 Posted 07/09/2023 at 08:27:14
Me neither, Ed #85
John Williams
93 Posted 07/09/2023 at 09:05:12
Hopefully the Gray transfer money can be used in January to bolster the team, especially as we may have a couple of players absent due to the African Cup of Nations.
Mark Taylor
94 Posted 07/09/2023 at 09:43:22
Tony @87,

You've slightly lost me there regarding your comment in your last para.

What did I say in my post that Evertonians might play dirty with?

Jerome Shields
95 Posted 07/09/2023 at 10:06:26
Basically the transfer policy is one of a club that has been relegated, getting value where Everton could, with a lot of players not in contract at the end of this season.

The Manager has to make do and was powerless in regard to who stays, especially when the player is advised how to orchestrate it. No surprise given the parties involved. Thewell has done well on a tight budget, probably ensuring Premier League survival, which the manager is grateful for.

So Everton have not only ensured Premier League survival, but are not going to have a disastrous relegation scenario hanging over them this season, so the independent commission should be easier dealt with. Everton have worked with the Premier League on remedial action over the Summer.

Everton should have never been in this position in the first place.

Mike Doyle
96 Posted 07/09/2023 at 10:38:19
John #93,

Unless we get any significant new investment before the January window closes, I expect we'll find that the Gray money will go the same way as the Iwobi, Cannon and Arteta money.

Hopefully Paul the Esk and/or Rodger Armstrong will provide some insight on one of their next podcasts.

Brian Harrison
97 Posted 07/09/2023 at 10:58:31
I would hope that lessons have been learnt and because we have wasted hundreds of millions, throwing money at mainly journeymen players, that Dyche and Thelwell will be allowed to get on with their jobs without interference in transfer matters.

We are in a dire predicament financially and, unless we can stay in the Premier League till the stadium is built, then we will face further financial hardship.

We also have the independent commission making its decision on 25 October, which could mean a heavy fine and hopefully not a points deduction which would really make it difficult to avoid relegation.

I am sure, whatever the ruling, then the club will appeal it if they can. So between now and Christmas, we have to hope that we are out of the relegation zone and starting to feel a little more comfortable than we have for the last two seasons.

Rob Halligan
98 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:00:05
Deal completed. Message on the club website does not include any “Thanks for his service” etc.


Jim Bennings
99 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:00:22
This should have been done before last week shouldn't it really?

So we could and should have brought someone in even on loan who fitted a similar profile.

I can't believe across the entire global market that there were no players out there that we could have used for one of those available four loan slots.

Ernie Baywood
100 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:00:47
Interesting parting comments from Gray.

Of course some will be adamant he couldn't possibly be telling the truth.

But he wouldn't be the first.

Anyway, he's gone now. Onwards and... well, we'll see.

Rob Hooton
101 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:01:16
Our wages-to-turnover ratio has been tragically bad for a number of years and we have been losing money hand over fist for years, mainly owing to our shocking transfer policy.

It seems we are finally showing some fiscal responsibility, unfortunately we are having to take our medicine due to the way the club has been run.

As such, it makes sense to sell wantaway Gray, as the stadium nears completion we might become an attractive proposition to any potential buyers of the club.

I wonder if the Saudi Pro League will draw money away from the Premier League? I don't know a soul that will watch the Saudi Pro League, but lots of international viewers of the Premier League might be drawn to it to watch the superstars, there are many fake glory supporters around the world after all.

Could hit the ‘big 6' harder than most, who make much of their cash from merchandise.

Ernie Baywood
102 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:02:46
Jim, I think it's quite convenient to sell when it's already too late to invest the funds.

Actually I think it's an absolute certainty that the club relies on that kind of situation.

Tony Abrahams
103 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:08:28
You never mentioned playing dirty, Mark.

It's just a question I sometimes ask with regards to our silent partner, and if we as a fan base would ever try and expose this.

James Hughes
104 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:13:02
It's now official, he's gone for an undisclosed fee.

Ta-ra, mate… keep burning those bridges.

Jim Bennings
105 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:18:46
Ernie 102

I've heard that Everton have long since balanced the books now anyway.

Bear in mind we will have had payments for the Anthony Gordon deal in January and also this summer alone we've rid ourselves of Iwobi, Mina has been removed off the wage bill and Tom Davies.

We've sold Cannon and Simms too.

The only fee we've paid and it's not due until next year is the Beto one.

Ernie Baywood
106 Posted 07/09/2023 at 11:45:06
Jim, that's just a cashflow consideration. Beto will still have a cost on the books this year.

But surely we were already balanced from the Premier League's rules perspective? We've sold and barely spent over the last few years. This is another season of net profit from player trading... which is another way of saying that we're not investing in the playing squad.

Feels like the plan is to just exist. Just.

Pete Neilson
107 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:08:14
Allan Saint-Maximin £30m, Gray £8m. Absolutely nothing here for the PL to investigate. Or maybe they’ll tie it in with their investigation into being duped by the Saudi regime on their purchase of Newcastle. Six months on and not a peep.
Brian Harrison
108 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:13:18
Certainly the player sales have helped in regards to allowing the club to demonstrate that they are doing everything they can to the Premier league to stay within the profitabilty and sustainability rules. But the sales have also kept the club afloat, and most of the sales have been used for the day to day running of the club. The only money we have spent on transfers was the £3 milion loan deal to Villareal for Dunjama, somehow Thelwell persuaded Udinese and Sporting to allow us to sign Beto and Chermetti without paying any money till next year, quite remarkable. But despite the £100 million loan from MSP and the £200 million loan from Media and Rights, to complete the stadium we still need extra funds, and I understand that these loans are costing the club £20 million per year.

So the fee we got for Gray would only pay half of our interest payments on the loans for 1 year. Thats the sort of mess we are in, and without further loans and its no guarantee that many companies would facilitate a loan given how much we owe in loans already, then its hard to see how we generate the funds needed to finish the stadium without more player sales in Jan.

Mark Taylor
109 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:14:29
Tony 103

Understood. Not sure I'd be up for that, the Uzbeki has the look of a man who might well have some equally ugly enforcers on hand to 'take care of' miscreants. So maybe Kenwright needs to watch his step...

Steve Cotton
110 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:41:04
It is highly likely that we (EFC) will get our fine and points deduction this season, whereas City who aren't afraid of either will more than likely drag their issues out for more that the 10 years that have already passed.

Chelsea have spent 1.2 billion in the last 2 windows and also don't give a toss about a large fine or points deduction.

Once again this hits the lowest clubs most, I personally don't expect City or Chelsea to ever be held accountable.. as Keith Richards once said 'some fish are just too big to fry'

James Newcombe
111 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:42:45
He’s a good player, and we can’t complain too much as he was a total bargain! For some reason he always had the look of a man who has just discovered he’s put a £20 note in the washing machine - well before Dyche turned up. Maybe he’ll be happier in SA.
Mike Price
112 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:51:45
I always thought Gray a talented, dangerous player. Better than one goal in every 7 games for a winger in a shocking team is a very decent return.
Would expect him to do very well moving forward and we’ve been screwed on the transfer fee.
The comments from player and manager leave a feeling of underlying problems and mistrust. Hopefully Dyche just doesn’t value large players that try hard because you need skill and talent as well.
Christopher Timmins
113 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:54:59

The numbers don't make sense

Purchased for 32

Sold for 16 and

Profit booked was 18

How long was the contract and how many years was the City player into his contract?

Let's assume he had a 5 year contract and he left after on the first day of year 4, surely his book value
at that time would be 12.8 and the booked profit would be 3.2.

To generate a profit of 18 from a sale of 16 would mean the player had a book value of - 2.

Rennie Smith
114 Posted 07/09/2023 at 12:58:59
Not sure about "Would expect him to do very well moving forward" Mike#112, I don't see that happening, he'll be forgotten. do you really think someone decent will pick him up after a few years of getting richer and fatter in Saudi? The level isn't good enough.

I'm not sure we've been screwed on the price either, it's about right for a player of his standing/ability

Bill Watson
115 Posted 07/09/2023 at 13:47:23
A luxury player if there ever was one. Every club he's been at has got rid as soon as possible.

He scored a great goal v Man City on 31 December but since then he got 2 goals from penalties and none from open play.

Good riddance!

Gareth Stephens
116 Posted 07/09/2023 at 13:59:03
#115 - Totally agree. Good riddance indeed.
Eugene Ruane
117 Posted 07/09/2023 at 14:04:57
Recent transfers to Saudi Arabia:

Hari Plumz from Dynamo Jibrovia to Al Jol'Sin for £15 squillion.

Eric Schun from FC Trevinia to Al Kuh'Pon for £20 trillion.

Jack Meehoff from Club Brousilla to Al Muh'Ree for £6 billion.

Demarai Gray from Everton to Al Ettifaq for five conkers (including a 25-er) a dead good Milbro catty, a bag of ollies, a quarter of pear drops and a 1972 Dandy Annual.

Niall McIlhone
118 Posted 07/09/2023 at 14:11:33
Denver #55.
I could not agree more: I was commenting on here before Townsend's contract had expired, albeit he was still getting over his nasty injury, I felt then, and still feel now, he could do a useful job for Everton, he is a free agent, and I doubt his wage demands would be excessive: That said, the manager let him go with little ceremony first time round, so you would assume that does not see any use for him in this (heavily depleted) squad?
Townsend can play on either wing, and has also successfully played in the No 10 role. OK, we might only get the remainder of the season out of him, but it makes complete sense to me as Andros would be fully aware of the current set up and would not go banging on the manager's door if he were to be bench-warming.
On the Gray move, I find it hard to say anything but "good luck" to him. He was signed for very little money, was played out of position, in and out of the team, and ultimately, became disillusioned. Move along eh? A footballer's professional life is a short one, feeling unwanted is not a nice place to be for anyone, he did ok, and gave us some important goals.
Ray Roche
119 Posted 07/09/2023 at 14:43:05

Is Hari Plumz the less talented of the two Plumz, Ol D'Yer Plumz being the tricky winger?

Barry Hesketh
120 Posted 07/09/2023 at 14:45:32
I think we've had quite a few players similar to Jack Meehof.

And it's an absolute disgrace that the club didn't hold out for the 1942 edition of the Dandy as that would have raised at least ten times the value of the 1972 publication, typical Everton.

Dale Self
121 Posted 07/09/2023 at 14:46:14
Mike 84, I’m thinking it’s just our boorish behavior when we get offended on behalf of our most functional professionals at the club. Even when asked to make a numerical or comparison case they simply make some shit up and try to build on it. I’m thinking that along with whining about future financial peril a on a tranfer topic is ultimately a capitulation.
Christopher Timmins
122 Posted 07/09/2023 at 14:48:40
While the guy did not cover himself in glory going out the door, we would be in much better shape if had more stories like his, bought £1.5m and sold for £8m.

Buying young players carries less risk of heavy losses if the don't work out. Onana has hardly shot the lights out but we would make a tidy profit if we sold him on.

Jack Convery
123 Posted 07/09/2023 at 15:27:16
"I am fully fit" — that's a final shot at Dyche methinks. I wish him well. We will look back at the important goals he scored for us, Arsenal, Man City and the free kick he put on a plate for Calvert-Lewinto head us to safety. A player who gave what he had but was inconsistent.

Now go and get Roberto Pereyra. Beto can give him a call. You know it makes sense.

Eric Myles
124 Posted 07/09/2023 at 15:33:01
Brian #97,

I believe there is no opportunity allowed to appeal the decision of the "independent" commission.

Eric Myles
125 Posted 07/09/2023 at 15:46:56
Christopher #113, from Swiss Ramble:

"He was bought for £32.5 million in September 2008 on a four-year contract, so annual amortisation was £8.1 million.

He was sold after two years, so cumulative amortisation was £16.2 million, leaving a value of £16.3m in the books.

Sale price to Milan is reported as £18 million, so Man City will report a profit on sale of £1.7 million in the 2010-11 accounts.

Therefore, City will show an annual profit improvement of £18.1 million after this deal: £8.3 million lower wages + £8.1 million lower amortisation + £1.7 million profit on sale.”

Eric Myles
126 Posted 07/09/2023 at 15:52:21
Lee #29, didn't anyone ever tell you not to poke the tiger? Now see what you've done at #117.
Ajay Gopal
127 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:10:38
SkySports reporting the fee to be ‘up to' £10 million, which is quite decent.

I wish him all the best, because he did a decent job, got us a good profit. The exit could have been handled more professionally by Gray – I am totally behind Dyche on his stance – but I suspect he has been ill-advised.

Graham Fylde
128 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:15:01
Eric, aren't lower wages and amortisation costs reductions in cost base rather than direct profit?

The booked profit on the deal would be £1.7m - if Man City have been following Swiss Ramble's lead, it's no wonder they managed 100+ P&S charges!

Also, there is an appeal process after next month's hearing. Apart from that, I'm with you all the way. :)

Duncan McDine
129 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:16:34
Mr Ruane channelling his inner Viz-editor there. Lovely stuff.

£8m for Damarai is daylight robbery, which I believe still carries a punishment of hand removal in Saudi Arabia.

I'd like nothing more than to see Stevie Me with a hook on one arm together with the likes Abu Hamza, Captain Hook and the baddie from Live & Let Die as backroom staff.

Dale Self
130 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:24:29
Okay, let's try some integrity test to this 'robbery' talk. All those claiming we got ripped off with £8M for Gray are equally saying they would pay £8m for him of he was on the market.

Think about that. People who are slamming Thelwell and Dyche are the same people who would buy Demarai Gray right now, right fucking now, for a cool £8m.

I await your charming responses.

Barry Hesketh
131 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:24:33
Just read a link to the letter that Usmanov and Moshiri sent to the Arsenal board just over 11 years ago, oh how I wish that the pair had remained as shareholders at Arsenal.

As a consequence of this policy [method of funding new stadium], which is dressed up as prudent financial planning, it is down to our manager, and not the shareholders, to have to deal with the Club's tight finances, carry the burden of repaying the stadium debt by selling his best players and having to continue to find cheaper replacements. All of that, naturally, comes at the expense of performance on the pitch.

This policy is leading to the loss of our best players, often to our main competitors, and even causes the players themselves to question their future at the Club and the Club's ambitions. The situation with our captain and outstanding performer from last season Robin van Persie sums this up. Yet again we are faced with losing our true marquee player at the Club because we cannot assure him of the future direction and give confidence that we can win trophies. Where are the safeguards to ensure that this doesn't happen again and again in the future?

As a top Club we should, at the very least, match if not beat the offers that other clubs make to try and lure our very best players away, and also provide a more compelling vision of the future. You can try and put a good face on a bad game for as long as you want, pontificating about the merits of this model, but it will not hide the obvious fact that it just does not allow our great manager to fully realize his managerial talent and deliver success for the fans who are paying the highest prices in the land.

It appears that a place in the Champions League will be the pinnacle of our ambition again next season. Unfortunately, in the future we may see this ambition lowered further. It doesn't help to turn a blind eye to the reality of the situation and keep thinking of ourselves as being in the same league as Real Madrid, Chelsea, Manchester City and Barcelona. To have a fighting chance of success, which means winning trophies, we need to match them in every aspect, including, if not first and foremost, financial.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions!

Alisher Usmanov's letter to the Arsenal board

Christopher Timmins
132 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:35:29

When you amortize you reduce the value of the asset (player) on the balance sheet and you increase the expense amounts in the profit and loss.

Dr Profit and Loss
Cr Balance Sheet
(With amortization cost of player for the year)


The profit on the sale of the player was £1.75m
(18 - 16.25)
Dr Balance sheet (Bank) 18m
Cr Profit 1.75m
Cr Balance sheet 16.25m

An asset for £18M must have been created on the sale, "Future costs /expenses saved" and this must then have been written off to the profit and loss account over the remaining two years of the contract.

Dr Balance Sheet 18m
Cr Profit & Loss

Christopher Timmins
133 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:39:35

Cr Profit & Loss £18M
In year of sale

Dr Profit and loss £9M
Cr Balance Sheet £9M

Over final two years

I am only a small practitioner and never seen such an accounting treatment and therefore the above is a best guess.

Tom Bowers
134 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:52:41
A good deal for both sides. Won't be a loss for the team and still good money for him and a regular starter (he hopes).

On another note concerning Saudi, what a load of twaddle spun by Southgate's bootlicker Henderson.

He was quite happy to gain brownie points with his support of certain values whilst in the Premier League and then he calmly disregards them for the lure of big money in the Saudi Pro League. What a hypocrite!!

Tony Everan
135 Posted 07/09/2023 at 16:54:19

They'll be singing on the terraces at Al Jol'Sin

🎶 How I love you, how I love you, my dear old Hari

Dale, nobody was queuing round the block to pay £20m for him so it's supply and demand. I think the way he has handled it leaves a lot to be desired. We could have possibly got more pre window, if Fulham or Palace were offering £12m the Saudis could have been told to pay £15m but he dragged it out and forced our hand. The mega fees don't apply as he's not a marquee signing or a draw, he's a journeyman.

Still I think we will be tracking Sulemana and organising a loan in January with option to buy. So this £8-10m will at least help us get a replacement. In theory, our finances mean any fees are like a dwarf planet being sucked into a supermassive black hole.

Still surprised none of the Saudis took a look at Gomes, the slightly slower paced game over there could suit him.

Barry Hesketh
137 Posted 07/09/2023 at 17:01:45
Apparently because Saudi clubs are not part of a European league, there is no set deadline for payments to be made by the buying club, and therefore would not face punishment if they decided to make the selling club wait for payment.

Seems we might only get the conker up front and have to sue for the Dandy and all the other add-ons that Eugene mentioned.

Dale Self
138 Posted 07/09/2023 at 17:20:53
I'm fairly certain any Premier League club could expect the full backing of the league and would surely get paid.

Tony, I'm just on the consistency of argument thing rather than market talk. If one thinks Everton got fucked by selling Gray for £8M that directly implies, if you were a DOF, that you would buy at that price. If you know there is a queue of buyers at £8m, then that's easy arbitrage.

I think buying Gray for £8m is a mistake for anyone but the Saudi clubs. Fulham and Palace likely agree.

Barry Hesketh
139 Posted 07/09/2023 at 17:27:02
Dale @138,

It would be very unlikely that any of the Saudi clubs would withhold payments as they would quickly find nobody would sell to them, but it's a loophole that does exist as the Times reported today.

I'm hoping that they buy that Egyptian bloke and pay a tenner down and make the other lot wait for ten or so years for the outstanding balance.

Dale Self
140 Posted 07/09/2023 at 17:31:00
Okay, that's where I was living, Barry. They have a few seasons to go before any skullduggery could be upheld. I suspect they will contest regulations conformity as opposed to direct financial fuckheadedness.
Kunal Desai
141 Posted 07/09/2023 at 18:18:06
Did a recent interview saying he had ambitions to play at the highest level.

In a bit Gray.

Tony Everan
142 Posted 07/09/2023 at 19:18:33
“Gray Gone And Deleted Every Picture Of Himself In A Everton Shirt”

Oooo handbags time, I can see this causing utter despair amongst Evertonians everywhere.

Ian Riley
143 Posted 07/09/2023 at 19:36:12
Good deal!

Very inconsistent at this level and £8 million is more than enough. Player, really wanted to stay? Who knows? Dyche will be blamed whatever happens. Dyche wants everyone marching together for the purpose of Everton Football Club climbing the table. Want out? Please leave your pass at reception.

Really can't see what all the fuss is about. Time to move on!

Brendan McLaughlin
144 Posted 07/09/2023 at 20:51:04
Barry #139

There is no "loophole" as such as any failure to pay the agreed transfer fee would be subject to normal commercial legal challenge. Granted there are additional protections when it's a matter between two European clubs but to suggest that Saudi Clubs can simply renege on a transfer fee is wide of the mark.

Barry Hesketh
145 Posted 07/09/2023 at 20:58:51
Brendan @144
I never suggested anything, I was only repeating what I read below, and that which was highlighted by the Telegraph. I agreed with Dale, later on in the thread, but my original post was more tongue in cheek which is why I referred to Eugene's payment plan. Take it up with the editors of the relevant publications if you feel I mislead you or that I was trying to be a smart alec.


Martin Reppion
146 Posted 07/09/2023 at 21:02:43
Ok, its time to poke the tiger.

We need a number 10. Creative, scores some goals.
We've just freed up the wages of Iwobi and Gray.

Jesse Lingard is a free agent.
Thoughts please?

Tony Abrahams
147 Posted 07/09/2023 at 21:04:36
After reading that snippet that was engineered by Usmanov, it just makes me realize how much the present custodians of Everton, are getting away with Barry H.

I couldn’t disagree more Martin, because my wish would be for another decent wide man, and an aggressive no nonsense central midfield player.

A decent number ten would obviously not go amiss, but when you have got players with the speed, strength, height and ability of Beto and DCL, (if he can get and stay fit) then it’s got to be a no nonsense 4-4-2, imo mate?

Brendan McLaughlin
148 Posted 07/09/2023 at 21:13:44
Ouch Barry #145

I was simply trying to point out to a fellow ToffeeWebber that the story was being sensationalised by some parts of the media. I don't think there's anything in my previous post #144 which suggests that I was accusing you of trying to mislead anyone or of being a smart alec.

Kevin Molloy
150 Posted 07/09/2023 at 21:23:47
The narrative outlined in Lyndon's article is a variation on a script we've seen a thousand times.

Club doesn't want to sell, supposedly. Says so publicly.

Player agitates for move, publicly.

Club: "Aargh, then you leave me little choice but to acquiesce reluctantly to your request!"

With this script enabling the club to say, "We wanted to keep him, but once he agitated for a move, we had to sell him. And that's why we didn't spend the fee. We couldn't cos the window had shut. See?''

Barry Hesketh
151 Posted 07/09/2023 at 21:37:29
Brendan @148

Fair enough, I took it the wrong way, and I duly apologise, perhaps you could have been clearer that it was the media that sensationalised a facet of the rules though.

Bobby Mallon
152 Posted 07/09/2023 at 21:51:36
It would be hilarious if the Saudis did not pay any of the £750 million.
Robert Tressell
153 Posted 07/09/2023 at 22:04:03
Martin, Tony - we need better quality all over the team really. We surely don't need Lingard though. That ship sailed years ago (as with Alli, Ravel Morrison and other flawed talents). There's a good reason he's not attached to club now.

In any case, the creativity should be apparent once Harrison and McNeil are playing – and once (hopefully) Garner and Onana click as a central midfield base. McNeil may yet move inside to be more of a playmaker than a winger – with Danjuma wide left and Beto up front on his own. I'd be keen to see that.

I know Dyche played 4-4-2 much of the time at Burnley but that was simply pragmatism with the players / resources available. It might make an appearance very late in games to pinch a goal, but the starting formation will be a 4-3-3, 4-5-1, or 4-3-2-1.

Christine Foster
154 Posted 07/09/2023 at 22:40:13
Tony, 147#,

The problem with a 4-4-2 formation with no playmaker and a couple of big lads up front, is that you are dependent on getting it wide and delivering in. If you come up against a pair of no-nonsense brickwall centre-halves, the game's over.

A good Number 10 takes the benefit of a no defensive midfield and adds ingenuity and the unexpected. Are we not better with a Sigurdsson, Rooney, James type player who can unlock a defence with flair or the unexpected?

We are Everton, remember the Holy Trinity?

We are also where we are because we have failed as a club to get decent managers with decent players by a pair of owners who have been incompetent in adherence to any strategy.

Without a creative midfielder you are playing percentage football, a version of Big Sam's mantra. This is why, for me, Dyche is a needed short-term fix, a good manager but not one to win trophies. No nonsense, but no future once he has us on secure ground. I like what he is doing because it needs to be done but does it turn us from relegation fodder to top 6?

The question to be asked is what does it take to do that and have we got the owners, manager or players to do that. At the moment... not a hope.

The club should have a strategic plan to work to that will put in place the resources and people to ensure that by 2030 we will be top 6. Right now we need tools in our locker instead of tools in the boardroom!

Jay Harris
155 Posted 08/09/2023 at 01:19:11

I think right now the cupboard is bare and so is the squad so we will have to play a formation to suit the players available and the opposition.

That means variations of 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 whichever gets us some points on the board.

Arsenal will be a big test for the squad and the manager and his tactical nous; however, we have won the home game against them in the last 2 seasons so hope prevails.

Mark Taylor
156 Posted 08/09/2023 at 01:19:51
Arabs never pay on time. It's a matter of principle...
Si Cooper
157 Posted 08/09/2023 at 02:27:07
Not sure if ‘journeyman’ fits, but definitely too inconsistent / flawed to be sought after.
Think his position is covered when all are fit so we will have to hope key players can avoid injury.
Work to be done prior to January to get reinforcements lined up. Best thing for recruitment will be at least getting to around mid-table. Fingers crossed for DCL, Beto, Danjuma and McNeil coming together to form a potent strike force.
Eric Myles
158 Posted 08/09/2023 at 05:38:30
Christopher #133 & 133, thanks for the explanation but it's still as clear as mud to this non-accountant.

Any idea what SR means then when he says Man City will show an annual profit improvement of £18.1 million?

Eric Myles
159 Posted 08/09/2023 at 05:39:49
What Mark Taylor said.

They also never make the last payment.

Dan Nulty
160 Posted 08/09/2023 at 06:53:52
I hope Gray's statement and the fact he has deleted every picture of himself in an Everton shirt has shown those who were defending him and criticising Dyche have now had the wool pulled from their eyes.

The line that did it for me was that he was prepared to give his all but wasn't allowed to do that. Clearly did not like the idea of being a substitute, knew he would be, downed tools, refused to train when he came back for preseason to get a move.

As I've said previously. I admire his self/belief but the reality is the lad has gone beyond that, he is deluded. Also, a very petty individual, pretending to big up the fans yet deleting every picture of himself in a shirt.

Good riddance.

Eddie Dunn
161 Posted 08/09/2023 at 07:14:41
Dan, when I read his nice leaving message to the fans, I also wondered why he would delete all images of him in the shirt.

Sums it all up.

Of course some people on here were using it to bash Dyche.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
162 Posted 08/09/2023 at 07:54:54
Totally agree - deleting images says "I don't want people to remember I played for Everton"
Trevor Powell
163 Posted 08/09/2023 at 08:32:12
Gray has shown himself to be an absolute no-mark. As a player, some bright moments but too inconsistent.

His excuse for leaving was to be with his young family and then he wants to go to Saudi Arabia. Who got inside his head and jumbled it all up?

This lad should remember that his career was going nowhere when he came to EFC and not much has changed! Perhaps, if there is a Saudi version of the Fast Show, he could play Dithering Dave a treat!

Christopher Timmins
164 Posted 08/09/2023 at 09:07:50

Not a clue, not a clue, I can't see how they arrived at the £18.1 number.

I would love to know the accounting entries from the date of purchase to the date of sales which resulted in the £18.1 figure being generated.

Stephen Davies
165 Posted 08/09/2023 at 09:59:43
Interesting read...


John Williams
166 Posted 08/09/2023 at 10:27:10
Its been said before, he had the same issue at Leicester, before they sent him on his way.

Sancho is another prime example at Man Utd.

Martin Reppion
167 Posted 08/09/2023 at 10:49:10
John. Now there's a player that makes me realise I do actually know a bit about football.
When Sancho came into the England team I was incredulous. He had no end product and was playing well in an inferior league. Take out the top 3 and its championship.
His fans told me I was talking rubbish (including my son).
When he was brought to Salford I was asked if I still thought he was over rated. I said yes. When he scored THAT goal. I said come back when he is doing it week in week out.
Just another Hudson-Odoi.
To quote from the classics.. 'now residing in the where are they now file'
Mal van Schaick
168 Posted 09/09/2023 at 15:42:57
I’m sure that the Arab league will suit him and when that all goes wrong for him, he can remove those pictures as well.

He is doing a great job for his CV. No manager will touch with that shitty attitude.

Anthony Jones
169 Posted 11/09/2023 at 19:15:58
..."further depleting"...nope.

This is actually a good outcome.

We had a pissed off player whining on social media who was probably never going to play again. Now he has gone.

Dyche likes his wide players to defend hard. This lad won't do it.

Give the club a break, for God's sake.

Charles Brewer
170 Posted 15/09/2023 at 14:02:55
I wonder if player transfer fees aren't carried out with an additional factor the "psychological/nuclear waste disaster area" - the 'Fucking Nutter' (FN) premium/discount rate evaluated on their effect on the club.

Mo Salah, a decent man with a superb club loyalty record: Player rating (PR) £75m - FN (premium) +100% - Adjusted transfer fee (ATF) £150m
Richarlison PR £50 - FN (premium) + 25% ATF £62.5m
Seamus Coleman - PR £1m - FN Premium 100% - ATF £2m
Damarai Gray - PR £20m - FN Discount -75% - ATF £5m
Jadon Sancho - PR £50m, FN discount -50% - ATF £25m
Marcus Rashford (2018) - PR £20 - FN Premium 50% - ATF £30m
Marcus Rashford (2021) - PR £60 - FN Discount 50% - ATF £30m
Marcus Rashford (2023) - PR £80 - FN Discount 25% - ATF £60m
Deli Alli, PR £40m FN rating -200% - ATF toxic waste, worth £80m to get him off the books

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