21/10/2023 89comments  |  Jump to last

Sean Dyche said he was completely baffled by referee Craig Pawson’s decision not to book Liverpool defender Ibrahima Konaté in today’s Merseyside derby for his trip on Beto.

The French defender was on a yellow card after going into the official’s notebook earlier in the second half but when he caught Everton’s Portuguese striker with an out-stretched leg, Pawson elected to only award a free-kick, waving away appeals for him to be sent off.

Had the referee booked Konaté again, it would have evened the teams up at 10 men apiece following Ashley Young’s sending off late in the first half for two bookable offences of his own.

As it was, Konaté was hastily substituted by Jürgen Klopp and Liverpool went on to win 2-0, with the decisive goal scored from the penalty spot by Mohamed Salah… but not before Pawson had been advised to go to the pitch-side monitor by Video Assistant Referee, David Coote, to overturn his own decision not to initially penalise Michael Keane for handball.

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Dyche was booked himself during the match for protesting from the sidelines and afterwards, he expressed his frustration to the cameras.

"My take is: it is the bizarre nature of the modern game,” he said of Pawson’s decision not to show Konaté a second yellow. “How they have got 11 on the pitch at 0-0, no-one in the stadium knows…

"Their manager certainly didn't know because he took off the player straight away because he realised.

"It changed the game quite obviously. That's the way it goes. The whole stadium were like, ‘what's going on there?’ Their manager is a fine judge and thought I'll get him off. That's the proof in itself.

“It was incredible to me; baffling. I don’t know how I got a yellow card for literally gesticulating like everyone else in the stadium. That is just ridiculous.

“The referee told me he didn’t feel it was a bookable offence. There are fair-minded people in football and they would be stunned it wasn’t a second yellow.

“I’ve seen the footage back and within a second the referee is saying ‘no chance, no chance’. If he’d given himself 10 seconds, you’d think that has to be a yellow.

“I shouldn’t get in trouble for saying that. We should be able to talk freely if the officials have an off-day.”

There was anger and frustration among Everton’s players as well after the game. Jordan Pickford did his best to allude to Pawson’s scandalous decision without incurring a fine while Jarrad Branthwaite, not normally outspoken because his more tender age, was also critical of the match official.

“We gave it our all, worked hard and decisions definitely didn't go our way — no shock there,” Pickford said before being asked which decisions he was referring to.

"It's not rocket science to work it out,” the keeper replied. “I think the whole world will know. We can't comment too much because you will just get done anyway. A bit of dialogue would be nice and less arrogance would be nice as well."

Branthwaite said: “Beto went past Konaté who is on a yellow already. He takes him down and it’s clear. I don’t know how it’s not a second yellow card.

“He’s gone right through the middle of the pitch; it’s one v one; it’s a blatant yellow but he hasn’t given it so we can’t do anything about that now. That’s the problem, there’s no consistency throughout the refereeing.

“If he gets sent off, it’s back to a level playing field and probably a different game but we’re down to 10 men and against it all game because of the decision he hasn’t given to award the second yellow for Konaté and we’re up against it for the rest of the match.”

The condemnation continued in the media as well, with ex-referee Mike Dean saying on Sky Sports:

“I think it is a second yellow, I do. Consistency-wise, you send off a player for two fouls in the first half, so you have to be consistent. He has done two in the space of 10 minutes.

“I guarantee you [Pawson] will get substituted.”

Former Liverpool defender turned pundit Stephen Warnock was even more forthright, telling BBC Radio that, “It should be level, ten men each.

“It is terrible from the referee; a really cynical challenge from Konate. Already on a yellow and tugs back Beto’s shirt.

“A stinker of a decision.”


Reader Comments (89)

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Derek Thomas
1 Posted 23/10/2023 at 07:10:05
Not holding my breath for a replay, an admission or even an apology... so much fish and chip wrapping today, in the bin and forgotten by officials by tomorrow... until it happens to Klopp's team again.
Jerome Shields
2 Posted 23/10/2023 at 07:16:37
You cannot beat the Ref, Sean, or any team with the selection and substitution decisions you made.
Larry O'Hara
3 Posted 23/10/2023 at 07:44:45
Jerome (2), it was 0-0 when we were robbed.

Speaks for itself: typical corrupt bias.

Danny O’Neill
4 Posted 23/10/2023 at 07:46:00
Well, although it doesn't change anything, after replay-gate, it seems just about everyone apart from them can see the injustice.

How the Premier League do not act on this so-called official is beyond me. But I won't be surprised if nothing happens.

Well done to the manager and players for speaking out. I see Klopp responded to asking for a serious question when asked if it should be a replay.

I'm not saying there should be, but just 2 weeks ago he was outraged.

John McHugh
5 Posted 23/10/2023 at 07:52:22
Guarantee Dermot Gallagher on Refwatch will say, “He got away with one there” – his standard line for “The ref’s shite and he's fucked up again.”

We all knew we were getting fuck-all with regards to decisions on Saturday. I don't know why people thought we would.


Derek Thomas
6 Posted 23/10/2023 at 08:16:36
My rs brother-in-law (decent bloke apart from that) never fails to txt me a comment or 5 before or after The Derby…

Silence! He knows its least said soonest mended.

Tony Abrahams
7 Posted 23/10/2023 at 08:34:10
If I was Dyche, I would be asking the league why they fined Frank Lampard, under the guise of bringing the game into disrepute, when he told the truth about referees officiating games at Anfield? Pawson has definitely just given the latest example of this on Saturday afternoon.

I haven't looked but I'd guess Liverpool conceded more penalties at Anfield during the empty stadium Covid season than they probably received in the previous five seasons. I might be wrong.

Mark Ryan
8 Posted 23/10/2023 at 08:40:44
Pawson bottled it. He didn't want to upset Klopp or the RS crowd. Cowardice and bias. Not what I want from pro refs.

Kenwright out, Pawson out. We move on UTFT's

Jim Lloyd
9 Posted 23/10/2023 at 09:40:30
Tony, Colin Glassar told me that we've had 6 penalties against them since the Second World War. I seem to remember being told, that we've not had many more than that since they were invented at our original home.
Dave Abrahams
10 Posted 23/10/2023 at 09:55:51
They never stopped talking about the Spurs cock-up for weeks after the game, Saturday's cock-up is forgotten already.
Daniel A Johnson
11 Posted 23/10/2023 at 09:57:31
Bang on about the sending-off that wasn't all you want.

I prefer to focus on the fact we lost the match because Michael "thick as mince" Keane assumed a volleyball position whilst trying to block a cross.

I'm still fucking aghast at his body position trying to block that cross. What a fucking moron.

Jim Lloyd
12 Posted 23/10/2023 at 10:14:12
Daniel, it's because of the cowardly and totally corrupt decision by a Premier League referee, that we were down to 10 men, and they weren't. That, I think is the real grievance.

I agree with you about Keane. I've thought since he came that his arms seem to be disjointed or double-jointed. Whatever, they seem to move like a windmill with broken sails. Awkward movements as always. I can't blame him, because... that's him.

I look at how Dyche didn't bring Patterson on as soon as Young got his 1st yellow. That seemed to me to be putting us on a knife edge from then on.

Barry Hesketh
13 Posted 23/10/2023 at 10:36:19
Older defenders for most of their career will probably have been told to make themselves big, when anywhere within the penalty area, trying to block any cross, pass or shot. If that's the way they have been trained since they were young, it would be in their muscle memory and very very difficult to alter if they are older players, especially when they have only a split-second to react.

I still think Keane was more than a little daft by having his hand at such a strange angle, as even under the less exacting hand-ball rules, he would probably have still given a penalty away. There's unlucky and there's plain daft, and I would be examining his life-style and general attitude as to why it's always he, who is involved in those moments of madness. All players make mistakes, but Keane is now becoming a serial offender and has done more damage to Everton, than many opponents have.

Anyway, they should bring in a handicap system that says that the other lot get an extra point from all matches, thereby guaranteeing that they and not that oil-rich club from down the East Lancs, will be crowned champions, which, from a commercial point of view, makes them worthy champions. That would satisfy the Premier League's bean counters as they proclaim to have a really really competitive league, well actually only four or five realistic competitors and the rest.

John Gall
14 Posted 23/10/2023 at 10:43:24
Too many excuses. Always the excuses. We were crap. We didn't lay a glove on them.

They got lucky with the sending-off, but they'd have broken through eventually, as we had no out-ball, no flow, no ability to break them down.

The women's team at Anfield last week showed more tenacity and creativity than Dyche's teams have shown all season.

Jim Bennings
15 Posted 23/10/2023 at 10:47:06
As soon as Young got that first yellow, Dyche should have said to Patterson "Warm up, get changed, you are going on".

Nevermind he should trust Ashley Young being experienced, Young has been a red card waiting to happen in the last four games and, at Anfield, if you want to walk that tightrope then so be it, but it backfired.

The irony was that Patterson comes on at half-time anyway.

These are decisions that managers at the highest level live and die by.

Geoff Cadman
16 Posted 23/10/2023 at 10:53:15

His mistake was starting Young instead of Patterson. At least he hasn't got that option next week.

Mike Woods
17 Posted 23/10/2023 at 10:58:10
John Gall @14, you're bang on. Exactly what I would say.

Yes, they were shit decisions but would the outcome have been the same if they went down to 10 men? Probably!

Tony Everan
18 Posted 23/10/2023 at 11:40:59
Game changing decision by Pawson not to send off Konate. It was a 100% certain yellow card .

The whole of football knows if a player hauls down a breaking away player it's yellow, there's never any argument about it. Effectively it was a decision that ensured a Liverpool win.

10 v 10 and the dynamic the game can change, we didn't have much offensively but it would have dramatically increased the chances of us grinding out a hard-fought draw.

I'm afraid this is how it is and get used to it, nobody outside Everton cares one jot. So all we can do is knuckle down and try to win next week, enjoy the games where we are given a fair chance.

The alternative is to forget about football altogether because it's impossible to win, in the long term, against such clear and obvious bias.

Christopher Timmins
19 Posted 23/10/2023 at 11:56:38
I enjoyed as always your report, Paul, glad to hear that your better half is on the mend.

The non-sending-off of the Liverpool player was a scandal. Will the bad decisions ever end when we play them at their place?

Forget the Michael Keane penalty issue, it was stonewall given the current rules.

Brian Wilkinson
20 Posted 23/10/2023 at 12:30:00
I thought even down to ten men we held our own in the first half, even before the sending off, the game was lost when we took Harrison and McNeil off at ht.

Had Dyche reacted to Youngs first yellow, and subbed him for Patterson, we would have been fine, but to take both our wide men off killed any chance of a counter attack, but bringing Keane on was sheer madness, how can a player stand like an Egyptian dancer in his own penalty area with hands stretched out that would have brought a tear to even stretch Armstrong, obvious change had to be Gueye to offer protection in front of his defence, just for his tackling alone.

It was a disgrace Konante not getting a second yellow card, it evens it up, but all it did was get Dyche out of a hole for his mess up of starting Young, then not subbing him, failing to bring Patterson on sooner, taking our two big threats off at ht, and changing the team at ht, when we were playing well

Patterson for me was the correct sub at ht, that was the only sub we needed to change, the rest of the team were holding out fine until then.

Much as I am annoyed over the none sending off, I doubt with the personal we had on the field, we would have held on, even against ten v ten, so in a way it softens the blow of the injustice and took the shine off their win, because everyone in the media is talking about a second yellow card, instead of a win for them.

But yes we were robbed yet again by corrupt officials, shit scared of getting called out by Klopp.

Steve Dowdeswell
21 Posted 23/10/2023 at 12:52:53
At every opportunity, this monumental cock up or blantent favouritism (whichever way you want to go) should be mentioned by the manager and team. Just like the RS did after their Spurs match.

Keep this in the mind of future refs so things might finally swing in our favour decision-wise.

Tony Abrahams
22 Posted 23/10/2023 at 12:57:01
Dyche should have brought Young off, but it was Klopp who was afforded the opportunity to take his player off.

We were shite, it's immaterial anyway… Doesn't alter the fact that Everton were robbed by a referee, who couldn't have been any more blatantly biased.

Rob Jones
23 Posted 23/10/2023 at 13:23:14
Would you speak to Michael Keane in person as you do on here?

I didn't think so.

Frank Sheppard
24 Posted 23/10/2023 at 13:26:02
Inevitable we would lose.

Inevitable that they would get the major decision.

Inevitable that Keane, once on, would create a goal, or get an own-goal.

Groundhog Day.

Barry Hesketh
25 Posted 23/10/2023 at 13:46:06
I don't want Everton as a club to complain, I don't want the manager and players to moan and groan, I just want competent officials who give what they see, without fear or favour.

I don't want Everton to receive favourable decisions if they prove to be incorrect calls. If we all travel down that road, the game will be even more goosed than it is at the minute.

I want Everton to win cleanly and lose or draw cleanly. I want every game to be properly officiated, which obviously at this time, it isn't, whether it's because of inadequate officials or because of the pressure the media exerts, when it comes to certain clubs.

The fact that Everton reporter, Joe Thomas of the Liverpool Echo, predicted most if not all of what happened prior to Saturday's match, is testament to the fact that something really terrible is wrong with Premier League football.

Barry Rathbone
26 Posted 23/10/2023 at 14:10:52
I hope people understand that part of the curriculum at the 2 week secret footy manager school in Bromsgrove is the module "diversionary bollocks".

Klopp is an "A" grade graduate because of always being involved in big games but our managers only have 5 important games a season so Dyche is showing he was paying attention in class.

But if you ignore the diversionary bollocks, the dreadful conclusion is we are in the band of non-descripts there only to make up the numbers. It wouldn't matter if Dixie Dean was the ref we're that far removed from the likes of Liverpool we are a once-in-a-decade victory donkey.

Too many get suckered in by these diversions… it's been happening since mid-Moyes and here it is again.

Kevin Prytherch
27 Posted 23/10/2023 at 14:21:00
Sick of hearing all the comments about “Dyche should have taken Young off” and “Klopp did it right taking Konate off”.

Firstly – you can't take a player off every time there is a yellow card issued. There's only 3 occasions to make subs, if we get 3 yellows in the first half are we really going to use all of our opportunities for subs? I don't see anyone calling Dyche for not taking Tarkowski off – he was also on a yellow.

Secondly – Klopp didn't react to Konate's yellow card so let's not give him undue praise. Klopp reacted to when Konate should have been sent off. Klopp did the exact same as Dyche and left a player on the pitch who was on a yellow card.

Jim Lloyd
28 Posted 23/10/2023 at 14:27:10
Sad times for football in the Premier League No matter what tactics our manager used, They are secondary to repeatedly blatant (and sometimes but not often) not so blatant biased decisions by the referee, and now Vars as well.

It doesn't excuse the awful handling that this club has received from it's own Board for Decades! But over the years, very important, blatant, poor(I would say Corrupt)decisions made by referees against us in favour of Liverpool. And now we can add those against us in the "favoured few" positions. From Clive Thomas' decision in the Cup, the Hands-on Milk Cup Final through to Saturday. We may have won lost or drawn, except that Referee made decison which I view as corrupt. He may have been scared to give the 2nd yellow, In that case what's he doing as a Premiership referee. In fact what is he doing as a referee and getting paid for it, at any level of professional football.

There's plenty of views about Dyche's tactics after the first yellow and the second yellow,. In my view, they are all secondary to that decision not to issue a second booking to the reds player, thus leading to him being sent off. That could well have changed the game in our favour.

Ray Jacques
29 Posted 23/10/2023 at 15:08:30
They are a better team than us with better players, we all know that. Hence, to beat them, we need decisions to go our way. They didn't because the ref was biased (cannot call it incompetent, that's not strong enough) no other word for it.

I have said on here many times: whilst Holgate and/or Keane are involved, we will always concede from silly errors. One has gone, the other comes on and, hey presto, gives away a goal. He should never be picked for any game after the fiasco at Villa earlier this season.

Oh and yes who gave him the kamikaze throw, Ashley Young?

Patterson may be young and prone to mistakes, but he has pace. Give him a run of games and see how he goes. Look at Branthwaite, probably our best player, few months ago not given a chance.

Taking the two wide men off took away the out-ball and invited pressure. we were never going to score after they were benched. Unfortunately, the mindset of a manager who doesn't believe and has quickly caught the Everton disease we all suffer from of: "Oh shit, we are going to lose!!"

James Hughes
30 Posted 23/10/2023 at 15:42:32
The other team didn't really pose any threat IMO during the game.

Yes, they made some fast breaks but we had them covered and for a team with so much possession they lacked any real cutting edge. I think that may have affected Dyche's changes and thinking at half-time.

First goal was because Keane is just doing what he does and it is not very good. Second goal was another breakout as we were still chasing an equaliser in the 97th minute.

However, for me, McNeil and Harrison, hooking both was just plain daft.

The ref's decision have been done to death, so I have nothing to add that hasen't already said. Apart from it was no wonder Konate was laughing at full time.

Kenny Smith
31 Posted 23/10/2023 at 16:02:49
I don't think anyone can honestly the Young sending off or the award of a penalty due to Keane's inability to do the basics. They were 100% the right decisions but is anyone actually surprised?

We never get fuck all there and hardly anything at Goodison when we play them. Over the years, we've been robbed time and time again: Gerrard's lunge, Kuyt's lunge, Owen's lunge, Suarez diving so Rodwell's off, Hutchinson scoring a winner as the whistle blows, Hansen handball in the cup final, playing 98 minutes till they finally get one.

I'd've taken the players off.

Kevin Edward
32 Posted 23/10/2023 at 16:05:13
As others already mentioned, the days of battling derbies are definitely over.

It's just another Premier League lovefest with the Super Six money train. Sadly we missed the train…

Mal van Schaick
33 Posted 23/10/2023 at 16:16:28
Nothing from the head of referees. No apology, no enquiry. Stinks of the usual fix it for the Red Shite.

Dyche and Everton need to challenge Pawson and the referee association or it will never change.

Mike Price
34 Posted 23/10/2023 at 16:21:27
I remember reading that Joe Royle used to ask the referee, on the way out at Anfield, if both teams were playing by the same rules today?

It never gets pointed out by anyone from our side but if anything happened the other way round, they would never stop banging on about it, to ensure future decisions.

Imagine if a Liverpool player had been sent off after 37 minutes and then an Everton player committed the second yellow offence of Konate… not in a million years would he avoid being sent off at Anfield.

That should be pointed out because it's unfair bias at best and blatant corruption at worst.

Dave Carruthers
35 Posted 23/10/2023 at 16:52:36
Kevin 27. Well done on pure common sense.

There has been so much written about what Dyche and Klopp should or shouldn't have done but, in the cold light of day, your observation is spot on. Thank you.

Andrew James
36 Posted 23/10/2023 at 17:07:29
I don't think Dyche got all that wrong and to blame the defeat on him and not the officials smacks to me of having an agenda against him.

I found it strange that Pawson elected to send off Young so early in a game of this ilk and with the history it has. But he did and then two more eyebrow-raising officiating decisions seal our fate.

When Moyes or Silva went down to the RS due to similarly infuriating decisions, we quite fairly didn't blame them for it. Both were, as was Dyche on Saturday, given insurmountable tasks.

I'd be far more inclined to hold Dyche to account had they gone down to 10 men and we'd only taken a point.

Rob Halligan
37 Posted 23/10/2023 at 17:28:33
Would it have made any difference if Konate had been sent off? We’ll never know, but if you think back to last season when we played Spurs, we were a goal down, a man down, had no strikers on the pitch, and looked totally dead and buried until seven minutes from time, when Moura was sent off and balanced things up. We were galvanised, rejuvenated, whatever, and battled back for a point in the last few seconds. Ok, Saturday was a different opponent and a different stadium, but belief may have been re-installed into our lot, increasing the determination to battle on for a deserved point. But as I say, we’ll never know.
Mark Taylor
38 Posted 23/10/2023 at 17:49:12
I don't think the Young and Konate tackles were similar. The former went in with force, Konate's was slyer. As it happens, I think the latter should be more penalised because I think Young was actually trying to block the cross but his reactions are dwindling with age. Konate's was cynical and deliberate.

So although the different nature of the tackles gave the ref an 'out' it was still double yellow. At least most of the pundits and ex-refs saw it the same way. Yes, Pawson therefore needs 'remedial treatment'.

And it doesn't help his case that he failed to give a yellow to their left-back for almost the exact same tackle as Young did for his first yellow. That also needs to go into the remedial action plan.

Would we have won with 10 v 10? Almost certainly not. Calvert-Lewin's first minute header turned out to be by far our best chance of the game. But we might not have lost, our defence, with Young removed, did pretty well. The rest of the team... not so much.

As for taking off Young, I don't think it is the same as with Konate. The former was getting skinned by a quicker, more skilful player and so was high risk, an accident waiting to happen. Konate was generally not looking at risk of getting skinned to the same degree. The real problem is, Dyche doesn't rate Patterson. Well now we find out if he's right or not.

No argument with the penalty, Keane's action in raising his arm so obviously was literally inexplicable. He was plenty far enough away from the ball for that to be a shoe-in. I really don't know what comes over him. Panic?

Barry Hesketh
39 Posted 23/10/2023 at 18:06:29
Michael Ball in his column for the Echo, said that Young should have been taken off, but he then confused me by castigating Patterson for allowing the other lot too much time and space to get crosses into the box, one of which resulted in the handball by Keane.

Could it be that Dyche was right with his call to play the experienced Young rather than the inexperienced and hardly reliable Patterson?

I don't like either player to be honest, neither have done a good job for Everton so far in their career here, although Patterson does have time on his side, but I've yet to see what many see in the young Scotsman. Even if it's a loan, we need a new full-back, in January, unless Patterson begins to show something that as yet he hasn't in an Everton shirt.

Brian Wilkinson
40 Posted 23/10/2023 at 18:48:44
Coleman will be back soon, Barry, we cannot wait to get him back into the team. We certainly missed him, even though his legs might not be as quick, he is a leader and has a footballing brain and nothing less than 100% from him every single game.
Christy Ring
41 Posted 23/10/2023 at 19:17:09
Dyche should be calling out Pawson and highlighting his absolutely shocking and biased performance on Saturday in the media, especially after himself and the bench getting yellow cards as well, and embarrass Howard Webb and insist Pawson is not allowed ref any more Everton games this season, like the redshite did with the Spurs ref.

I agree with Michael Ball in his column today, who said Diaz was allowed to make three crosses in the space of a few minutes, one of them for the penalty and not a tackle in sight from Patterson, maybe that's why Dyche is reluctant to start him. The sooner Seamus is back, the better.

Andy Meighan
42 Posted 23/10/2023 at 20:13:15
Christy @41.

I'll guarantee you that Pawson won't ref another of our games this season. In fact, I'd stake my house on it.

Could you imagine the reception he'd get, especially at Goodison.

George Stuart
43 Posted 23/10/2023 at 23:37:50
That went almost exactly as I predicted except for the fact the obligatory red was correct and so was the penalty. Did not see that coming.

Except, no obvious penalty for us denied. That is unusual. Still, a defensive setup restricts opportunity.

A couple of things about the ref. The red card denied of course. But initially denying the penalty. Come on. Blind pew could see that was a penalty.

He was like a crane trying to impress a female at mating time.

Si Cooper
44 Posted 23/10/2023 at 00:11:07
Kevin (27) and Dave (35), beat me to it.

Plenty of times a player can get through a game after an early yellow (often because sensible refs may raise the threshold for the second yellow if it's not too outrageous).

Yes, Young may have been likely to be put in awkward positions and had to be very careful but he is a seasoned pro and made a very bad choice for the challenge he put it for his second. That's on the player, not the manager.

Pawson clearly varied his threshold for a yellow for Konate, which just couldn't be fair after he had not used that discretion for Young. I have yet to hear anyone say Pawson was right.

Christine Foster
45 Posted 24/10/2023 at 01:30:33

Quite correct, how many times (literally hundreds every week) do we see a referee give a final warning to a player already booked?

Not only did Pawson fail to bother with Young but compounded it by failing to even bother to show Konate a card for a professional foul.

Wasn't Allan sent off by Pawson with a straight red for a professional foul in his own half a couple of seasons ago? It deserved a booking yes, but a straight red?

In this case, Beto was goal-side and Konate was the last defender. It was a professional foul. The only reason it was not a straight red was possibly because it was in the Everton half.

Interesting stat on Pawson I dug up... He has refereed Everton 24 times in the Premier League over the past 10 years. In that time, he has sent off 5 Everton players...

He has refereed Liverpool 31 times in the Premier League over the past 10 years. In that time, he has sent off 0 Liverpool players.

Over the same period he has refereed Everton v Liverpool twice.. with Everton getting 7 yellow cards and Liverpool 2 – that's over 10 years.

Oh and to add to that set of stats, he has never sent a Man City player off in the Premier League or a Man Utd Player in the Premier League.

Everton have been shown more red cards than any other Premier League team refereed by Pawson over the past 10 years (5 times).

Courtesy of World Football net.

George Stuart
46 Posted 24/10/2023 at 02:46:48
There's some sort of tropes kicking around the blogisphere about Koppites being pleased the undeniable bias towards Man Utd has dissipated over the last few seasons. How they had to endure it through the 2000s. ;^)

I wonder if there is some deep recesses of ref's minds that say, "Oh it's Man City (say or Real Madrid). They don't need to swing recklessly so it can't be a penalty."

Or conversely, "They're Man City, their attacker is so brilliant, that defender "must" have brought them down."

Or maybe it's just "protect the brand"? I'm very cynical about professional football these days.

Kieran Kinsella
47 Posted 24/10/2023 at 04:24:13

Don't know if you've been watching the rugby World Cup — the tourney Ian Edwards avoids as he thinks anyone outside of Merseyside is a Tory. But it's interesting to see and hear the refs saying things like “Okay, stop there, mate – if you move another inch, it's a penalty.”

I realize rugby is slower than football but it's interesting to see refs essentially coaching teams through the game versus seemingly arbitrary decisions that often seem to favor one side.

Also, slightly off topic but I had a weird dream last night in which a giant was stomping on houses in Kansas City and killing residents. His reign of terror came to an end when I took a chainsaw to his Achilles and he bled to death. I'm pretty sure there is some kind of Everton message there but I'm not a professional dream analyst so I thought I'd open it to the group.

Ian Jones
48 Posted 24/10/2023 at 05:50:33
Christine, just a minor point. Konate wasn't the last defender.

Without looking at the footage of the incident again, I am pretty sure there was another player in reasonably close proximity.

Christine Foster
49 Posted 24/10/2023 at 06:12:08
Ian, quite right.

On the Twitter video I looked at, you cannot see the other defender (far right-hand side) slightly behind but 15 yards away. On YouTube, you can… apologies!

Having said that, it would have been debatable that he could have caught Beto had he got away. Still a yellow… professional foul.

Ian Jones
50 Posted 24/10/2023 at 06:53:07
Hi Christine, might have mis-interpreted what you mean about missing the Liverpool player being 'behind'..in terms of being behind Beto so having to catch Beto from behind. You say far right hand side. Depending which camera angle of the incident you have there is definitely one defender goalside. Top left of Beto.

Feel sure we are talking about the same player.😀

No argument from me about it being a second yellow. I admire your view that the 'last' defender wouldn't have been in a position to catch Beto. I feel that Beto would have had a long way to go to get to the goal, but it's immaterial because he wouldn't have got very far because he would have been cynically taken out by the last defender who would have stayed on and not been sent off and we could have a whole different situation to debate.

I would be interested to know if Trent Alexander-Arnold had a little word or two to say to the ref just before the ref gets the second yellow and red out for Ashley. Imagine it's pure coincidence but the ref seems to be having a think about the situation but then when the Liverpool player arrives at the scene, out pops the cards.

There's one for the conspiracy experts!

Alan J Thompson
51 Posted 24/10/2023 at 07:02:48
Kieran (#47);

Try keeping off the cheese before turning in.

Duncan McDine
52 Posted 24/10/2023 at 07:40:01
Strange how the official highlights on YouTube don't show the foul on Beto. I've been abroad, so couldn't get access to my Sky or the BBC footage, and only by specifically searching for the foul have I managed to eventually find a snippet.

It's like some kind of dictator style cover-up!!! What the hell is going on?

Derek Thomas
53 Posted 24/10/2023 at 07:59:45
Duncan @ 52; sky have previous for this sort of caper. When Mirralas got his payback on Suarez and it developed in to the usual 7,8, 9 man push and shove the rs trainer was rushed on to...supposedly...treat the writhing ratboy but went straight into the Reffs ear and he was going for the for the red card...you then saw the Reffs face go like Thunder as he realised he was on live TV with the rs trainer telling him what to do - it stayed yellow!

I put the 'full' replay on the next morning and you could see the time clock in the corner of the screen jump forward 30secs...not a trainer to be seen.

Also, If I remember correctly, the highlights never showed V v Pegleg's taking out Rodriguez and DCL in the first Few minutes

Jerome Shields
54 Posted 24/10/2023 at 08:21:35
Wonder what Jimmy Hill would have made of it?

Liverpool hated him.Remember Daglish trying to make a ejit out of him at a post FA dinner, playing to a admiring gallery.Jimmy always highlighted the pressure that officials were put under by Liverpool players as they congregated round them for most decisions.

I myself often told Jimmy to F...Off on the TV whilst watching Match of the Day.I admired him after that.

So there has always been a intimidating attitude emanating from Anfield to officials and those that question, and visa a versa when the decisions go against, eg: Pickford on Van Dijk.Only the other week a feedup Spurs supporter said to me that Liverpool protests after their game were still going on weeks later and it wasn't as bad as Pickford's attempted murder.

It's all part of Liverpool's Culture since Shankly.

David Bromwell
55 Posted 24/10/2023 at 08:40:23
Ok the referee was wrong, having sent Young off in very similar circumstances. But for me the real culprits are our Manager and his two assistants. Having started with Young, who has made a habit of being booked early in games, they took a second risk in keeping him on the pitch, that failed. Then to counter the sending off the half time changes were just bizarre, and again failed.

As a player I like Michael Keane, he seems a nice bloke and he has done his bit in keeping us in the premiership. However, we all know that he is prone to making mistakes so why bring him on ?

In my mind these were both unnecessary errors, by the Manager and his assistants. Add those to the usual game plan of booting the ball up the pitch to a lonely centre forward, our usual corner routines of bringing all the big men up, which on Sunday played into their hands by leaving us open and unprotected from their Very Fast counter attacks. This all seems to add up to 'Dyche Football', and surely we are better than that ? Or is this all we can expect for the remainder of the season ?

Duncan McDine
56 Posted 24/10/2023 at 08:40:45
Derek, its getting worse all the time. The Premier League, FA, media... I'm not sure who pulls the strings, but they protect their agenda like some kind of North Korean nutjob.

What baffles me, is the foul on Beto isn't even shown on the official Everton youtube highlights (and obviously not on the 9min RS version). Something strange going on.

Dave Lynch
57 Posted 24/10/2023 at 08:58:47
Dyche does not possess any footballing intelligence IMO.

Klopp on the other hand pulls off a player for fear of going down to ten men, our thick as a brick manager leaves a ticking time bomb on the pitch, he should of known he would of been targeted and pulled him straight away.
It wasn't as if we didn't have another replacement on the bench.

Brian Harrison
58 Posted 24/10/2023 at 09:21:54
Remember when Bielsa said he would be our manager but only wanted to work with the U21 team, maybe we should have gone along with it, as daft as it sounded at the time. This club has lacked having a way of playing that every team in the club is coached to play the same way. We change managers and each one has changed the style of play, so what the coaches of our other teams do I don't know. I was only saying the other day I cant ever remember Man Utd or our neighbours going to any ground and playing 10 men behind the ball. Their philosophy has always been to attack the opposition if when they had inferior teams to the opposition. They never encouraged a fear factor into their players which seems ingrained in our players for over 30 years.
Barry Hesketh
59 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:21:39
Brian @58
I don't think the fear has been instilled from within the club, it comes from the outside. United and the other lot are glorified even when they aren't at their best, Everton and others are patronised or head-patted when they are doing well. That type of media behaviour has to seep into the minds of players, most of whom weren't born when Everton last won the FA Cup, never mind the title.

We also have to remember the vast gulf in quality of the players available to the top sides and ourselves, even West Ham and possibly Villa have vastly superior teams to Everton at this present time. Obviously, I'm hoping that on Sunday, we give West Ham a match, and take something from the match, but I would expect a similar line-up and tactics to what we saw in the last game.

What we'd like to see from an Everton side and what this current side is capable of producing, is a gulf that will take a good while to bridge. Although the financial state of the club, might somewhat strangle the spirit of adventure for longer than we'd all wish.

Dave Lynch
60 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:25:59
Wait till the Saudi's start splashing the cash in January and the new year, I've a feeling they are going to decimate the prem and Europe of its top talent.
Dave Cashen
61 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:31:24
Dave 57

I saw it differently. If the referee had done his job, Klopp would not have had the chance to pull his player.

The difference between the way the two managers handled the situation was dictated by the referee. Klopp didn't need footballing intelligence. He simply needed to heed the warning.

I blame Young rather than Dyche for our numerical disadvantage. If you can't trust a player of his experience not to dive in when he's on a yellow. Who can you trust.

If Dyche is to get any blame it should be for selecting Young in the first place

Tony Abrahams
62 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:33:54
Whatever anyone says, this is what Evertonians signed up for when they accepted plucky little Bill Kenwright, and his absolute mediocrity.

Careful what you wish for, people even voted for a second rate stadium on the outskirts of Liverpool.

I want my Everton back, the one that used to compete to win, and not just make the numbers up.

Barry Hesketh
63 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:36:01
I'm curious about what others have noted about the TV coverage of last Saturday's match, surely one of the major talking points that had all and sundry commentating both live and afterwards was included in Match of the Day's coverage wasn't it?

I never watch any highlights programme when Everton fail to win, which means I don't watch many. I do look at the Everton official site and the footage on there was appalling as it didn't show the incident that led to the penalty, it may have been updated since Sunday I suppose.

Pravda - FA, Premier League? Never!

Rob Halligan
64 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:36:46
Duncan # 52…

Normally on the official club website, it's usually Darren Griffiths who does the commentary on the edited highlights, and also the full version of the game a day or two later. Is this the same one you watched?

On both versions, highlights and full version there is a different commentator, and on the edited version, which is about 2 minutes long, the foul by Konate on Beto is not shown at all, while it is all over the Ashley Young one. I've only watched the first half of the full game, but surely the Konate foul cannot have been edited out?

Barry Hesketh
65 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:50:01
Tony @62

I disagree that any Evertonian signed up to what Bill Kenwright has provided, like fans of other clubs we are lumbered with the owners that decide to buy the shares.

Moyes provided enough cover for the owner to bluster his way through a number of issues, and liars aren't as easy as thieves to spot. Many Blues thought that Bill's heart was in the right place, even if he was a 'luvvie' and a bit sentimental.

Unfortunately, since Moyes left, the real state of the club has been laid bare and its demise has been accelerated by of all things huge wads of cash – you couldn't make it up.

I expect to see a large red flag on the Kop in future years with Bill's mug on it, with the line "The man who killed Everton FC – Thanks!"

Andrew Ellams
66 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:50:09
Dave @ 60. I'm not so sure. Some of the rumblings from the likes of Kante and Benzema that they've been sold a dud may put a few off.

How many of these egomaniacs want to play in front of Northern Premier League size crowds every week?

Dave Cashen
67 Posted 24/10/2023 at 10:59:29

I don't blame the people who voted for Kirkby. I blame the sneaky bastards who sold it to them with their lies.

Remember that glossy brochure? Remember the convincing argument put forward by Terry Leahy – an Evertonian? Remember the lies Kenwright spouted about Goodison failing safety checks? I can't recall another incident where a football club has tried to deceive its fans on such a scale.

The only difference was that Terry Leahy tried to do what was best for the company he worked for. Kenwright and his cronies tried to do what was best for themselves.

Jimmy Carr
68 Posted 24/10/2023 at 11:22:18
Barry (63)

Both pundits on MotD agreed that Konate should have been sent off, the incident was discussed after the highlights.

For what it's worth even Ray Houghton, co-commentating on TalkSport, said Konate should have gone.

John Williams
69 Posted 24/10/2023 at 11:44:13
It's not just Everton supporters, but the other 13 or 14 clubs in the Premier League.

As it stands, we have no hope of competing with the top 6 clubs in the Premier League, unless we have a person or group with hopefully clean money and a genuine interest in that club. The odds are stacked against all these clubs.

We cannot attract the best players and basically have to look in the bargain basement. This came about when the top four clubs qualified for Champions League with payments from the start.

This has not only affected the Premier League but most of the leagues in Europe, so you end up with the same clubs in the Champions League playing each other every season, unless you have a bad season like the Reds had last season.

The First Division in England was far more competitive
than the Premier League is today. Having watched Everton since the 1950s, I doubt I will ever see the Blues win another trophy, but that also goes for the millions of supporters from the other 75% of the clubs in the Premier League.

John Raftery
70 Posted 24/10/2023 at 11:57:15
John (69) You are right. It all comes down to money.

Currently we are in a league of low-in-the-table teams fighting to stay up with an aspiration to improve sufficiently to become a middle of the table team. With good management and some luck we might achieve that over the next eighteen months.

For the likes of Brighton, West Ham and Villa they should enjoy their moments of comparative success. They are being well managed but they must know they will never bridge the gap between them and the top teams unless they can attract a major investment of new finance.

Dave Abrahams
71 Posted 24/10/2023 at 12:12:47
Johns (69-70), Absolutely the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Will we ever return to the top table? I hope so but I know I won’t see it, not being morose just stating a fact.
Barry Hesketh
72 Posted 24/10/2023 at 12:19:38
Jimmy @ 68

Thanks for the information, I was really trying to ascertain if the incident had been shown as part of the actual highlights, or was it only discussed after the highlights had been completed.

It doesn't really matter, but as others have noted, some important incidents from a supporters perspective are often not shown in the highlight packages as the broadcasters edit out many of the lower profile incidents, which is annoying, as if you've been to the game and would like to see something that needs clarifying it very often isn't shown, and many of us haven't the patience to go through the full 90 minutes on the official site, even if we have access to it.

If it had been any other game, I would have accessed Match of the Day on BBC Iplayer, but I can't stomach seeing the other lot, for even a second.

John Raftery
73 Posted 24/10/2023 at 12:50:21
Dave (71)

There was a time when good management, big crowds, a half decent commercial performance and wealthy local ownership virtually guaranteed a place near the top of the league plus a trophy or two. Exceptional managers like Clough could break the mould for relatively short periods by lifting smaller, middling clubs up to the top level.

Our route back to the top looks formidable. First and foremost it will be about the club surviving the next eighteen months so that we can move into the new stadium, preferably watching Premier League football. That in itself will be a major achievement although it looks fraught with difficulties at present.

I'm not looking beyond that at the moment. I like what I hear from Kevin Thelwell and Sean Dyche but they must know, in the words of the song, it's an uphill climb to the bottom.

Tony Abrahams
74 Posted 24/10/2023 at 13:16:23
Dave @67,

I remember going to Kirkby to see what that glossy brochure was all about and meeting Dave Kelly for the very first time, the man who now happens to be chairman of the club's Fan Advisory Board.

He explained to me that he lived right opposite the site of what was going to be the new stadium, but he didn't think it was a good move for Everton. I agreed with him 100% and my estimation of him went up even further because I asked if I could join his group that were going to be fighting this move, and he just shook his head and said No.

I have always liked being told the truth dead straight, so there was no hard feelings on my part. Sometimes when I drive past Bramley-Moore Dock, I will think of the people who were involved with KEIOC.

Every single time I drive past that site that was earmarked for Everton in Kirkby, I still become angry at the temerity of certain people who were prepared to move Everton Football Club to such a place.

Dave Abrahams
75 Posted 24/10/2023 at 13:40:33
John (77) Yes I think it will be a long road back to the top table.
Jimmy Carr
76 Posted 24/10/2023 at 14:15:47
Barry (72)
Yeah, I listened to the game so wanted to see the incident for myself, and also Young's sending off. Painful though it all was.

All the incidents were included within the actual highlights of the game.

Barry Hesketh
77 Posted 24/10/2023 at 14:25:33
Jimmy @76
Thanks again, having seen the incident on GOT, I can now understand why the referee didn't book the Liverpool player a second-time, depending on the viewpoint it looks like an accidental clash, but other views make it look like a cynical foul. Perhaps, if the Liverpool player hadn't have already been on a yellow the referee may have given him a yellow.

Likewise if Young's fouls had been in reverse order he may too have escaped the sending off. Watching last night's match between Spurs and Fulham, had me thinking that there must be different rules at play, because in the first 20 minutes of that game, there were numerous yellow card offences by Fulham, but nobody was booked until close to half-time, and that was issued to a Spurs player.

Si Cooper
78 Posted 24/10/2023 at 15:40:21
“depending on the viewpoint it looks like an accidental clash” - only if you think professional footballers are actually that clumsy.
How does ‘accidental’ even come into it? Does anyone think Ashley Young wasn’t trying to get his foot on the ball for his second. Konate knew from his trajectory he was getting the ball or he was getting the man. All the professionals recognised it for what it was; a clear foul and a definite yellow card offence.
Kieran, any good ref in either rugby or football will recognise and manage the ‘temperature’ of the match through communication. Pawson doesn’t look like he has the natural charm to impose himself on the game unless he is brandishing a card.
As for your dream? Even seemingly large problems may have simple solutions.? Or perhaps you fell asleep whilst the Harryhausen version of ‘Jason and the Argonauts’ was on TV?
Barry Hesketh
79 Posted 24/10/2023 at 15:54:30
Si @78,

I didn't intend to say I agreed with the referee I was only trying to be objective about the decision, and how the referee may have seen the incident from his perspective.

It doesn't matter now anyways, Young will be suspended, Everton will have lost and life goes on, even if it is very irritating how we as a club don't seem to benefit very much from these quirks of interpretation.

Si Cooper
80 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:04:25
Barry, you may simply be trying to be objective but appear to be trying harder than anyone else.
Every single ‘neutral’ who has ventured an opinion on the decision not to award a second yellow to Konate that I have heard has simply stated it was wrong.
Klopp’s reaction tells you what he thought; even though the ref didn’t give Konate a ‘last warning’ talking to he moved exceptionally quickly to get that player off the pitch.
Minik Hansen
81 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:05:22
And just wondering how anyone didn't notice Mykolenko (while not having possession of the ball, in the second half I believe) being stepped on on his back heel by Diogo Jota and went down in pain??
Similar to Distin some years back, when Suarez stepped on him, could've been bad for Mykolenko.. Targeted for shutting down Salah up to this point in the game?
Barry Hesketh
82 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:11:55
Si @ 80

We're all entitled to an opinion, it was the first time I'd seen the incident and I tried to view it without my blue-tinted glasses on and as I have already explained I could see why the official might not have issued a second yellow, I also said I didn't agree with him. I certainly didn't go out of my way to defend the decision.

Si Cooper
84 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:29:03
Barry, I'm not having a pop at you expressing your opinion, just pointing out that your expectation of how a very well paid professional referee could legitimately be assessing what they are seeing is different to the vast majority of other footballing professionals who have had their say on the matter.

I am disagreeing with you, not ‘dissing' you.

Barry Hesketh
85 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:30:44
Kieran @ 83
I looked it up and here is a possible explanation of your 'dream', but I assume, they trot out the same useless advice, regardless of the main subject of your dream.

Inside my Dream

Barry Hesketh
86 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:33:24
Fair enough Si, I didn't take any offence from your post.

I do wonder though if the red card had have been issued and Everton had held on to the point or better, would these same professionals have come to the same 'universal' conclusion?

Andy Crooks
87 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:40:23
Dave @60,I really hope so. Get the immoral money grabbers out and let them display their talent in front of the two men and a dog who will watch the Saudi League, a league which will be about as relevant as the old superstars tv show.

Steve Brown
88 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:43:35
Barry, to be honest trying to be objective about decisions like the Konate incident are the reason why referees continue to feel comfortable giving them against us.

We are seen as pushovers, and the very reasonableness you demonstrate is a bit of a loser mentality.

Would the red shite fans sites see posts rationalising such a cowardly decision if the boot was on the other foot? I think not.

Whether we like it or despise it, their actions after the Spurs game are a case study on how poor referring and VAR decisions should be challenged.

We in the other hand are as soft as shite.

Kieran Kinsella
89 Posted 24/10/2023 at 16:43:42

Maybe the dream was a premonition about the rumors doing the rounds?

Neil Lawson
90 Posted 25/10/2023 at 11:33:30
This comment is far too late and more recent sad news must take precedence.

However, we can complain as much as we like about the failure to dismiss Konate but the changes Dyche made at half-time removed the potential to be in any way positive.

So, had Konate gone, our chances of a hard fought draw may have improved but our potential for a sneaky victory remained at 0 percent.

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