25/10/2023 314comments  |  Jump to last

Updated The Premier League have reportedly recommended to the independent commission into Everton's alleged breach of Profitability and Sustainability rules that the club be docked up to 12 points as punishment.

According to an "exclusive" from The Telegraph, the League want the penalty to be severe should the panel agree that the Blues flouted spending rules based on the club's annual accounts for the 2021/22 financial year. And according to The Times, the decision could affect the price that 777 Partners pay should their takeover bid pass the approval process later this year.

Though Everton recorded significantly reduced losses, their deficit over the rolling three-year period ran to £304m, almost three times more than the permitted £105m.

The club have attributed a significant portion of those losses to the outsized impact of the Covid-19 pandemic and the costs of building the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and, having had their transfer activity overseen by the Premier League for the past two years, they insist they were in compliance.

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The report in The Times suggests, however, that the alleged breach relates to "a number of adjustments made to disclosed losses, of which one is interest payable on loans to build the club’s new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock."

Everton said they would “robustly defend” their position to the panel and experts on football finances suggest that the club are likely to appeal any penalty, potentially dragging the process out for many more months.

While the Telegraph's report suggests that the Blues could face a maximum penalty of 12 points, the panel could instead impose a fine, transfer embargo, or both. Their ruling is expected "soon" and, assuming the punishments aren't suspended, The Times say any points deduction would be imposed immediately. 

A 12-point deduction could have devastating consequences for Everton given how close they came to being relegated in each of the last two seasons and would in itself represent a financial penalty, even if Sean Dyche and his team were able to surmount the huge handicap, given that every position in the table is worth around £2.6m.

The Premier League's recommendation could also have significant implications for Manchester City who have been charged on 115 counts of breaking finance rules themselves, and Chelsea who are also under investigation.


Reader Comments (314)

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Barry Hesketh
1 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:28:36
Telegraph sport: By John Percy ; Tom Morgan and Sam Wallace 25 October 2023 • 1:00pm

The Premier League has recommended that Everton face a 12-point deduction in its case against them for breaching profit and sustainability rules, the Telegraph has learned.

Everton are facing the threat of severe sanctions if they lose their fight against allegedly breaking the Premier League's financial regulations, with a decision due later this year.

Telegraph Sport understands the Premier League has recommended the punishment to be extremely severe, and up to a maximum of 12 points. Such a sanction would put them in grave risk of going down, given the team's relegation battles in recent seasons and precarious current position of 16th, three points off the relegation zone.

Everton's case is currently being heard by an independent commission after they recorded financial losses of £371.8million over a three-year period, which is well over the permitted amount of £105million set out by the Premier League.

I thought the commission was to decide if there was a charge to answer and then arrive at a suitable punishment, this makes it sound as if we are going to be found guilty and hit with a points deduction.

Kevin Molloy
2 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:35:27
12 points will be just enough to ensure we are definitely relegated. If we are relegated, we ain't coming back up any time soon, if ever.

That's nice, isn't it. Thanks a lot, Premier League. I will be watching how you deal with the good people at Anfield and Manchester City with interest.

Danny Baily
3 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:45:33
I get the feeling the decision will be announced today.
Andrew Ellams
4 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:50:02
Had a discussion with the wife last night about cancelling the Sky subscription. If we are deducted 12 points then decision made.
Colin Glassar
5 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:54:18
What a legacy!!
Allen Rodgers
6 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:55:39
Telegraph Sport understands the Premier League has recommended the punishment to be extremely severe, and up to a maximum of 12 points. Gives them leeway to impose a lesser sentence.
Alan McGuffog
7 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:56:18
Float the idea of 12. Then hit us with 6.

We feel relieved, they'll see a job well done. A good game played slow.

Stephen Davies
8 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:57:45
I'm assuming you've got that from the Telegraph article?

The journo who wrote it has tweeted "Premier League demands 12-point deduction as maximum punishment if Everton are found guilty of breaching financial rules. Important to note that final decision will be made by an independent commission. Everton maintain they have complied with the rules"

The club have repeatedly confirmed the same to us (FAB) that they believe they have no case to answer and will be cleared – however I was also told last week (by a non-FAB source) that one of Everton's more recent investors/loaners has been advised that they might get a suspended fine, however they are not expecting a points deduction.

The hearing was originally scheduled to take place tomorrow, however there were various reports that it actually started last week but there has been no official confirmation of that, nor has there been any date stated for when the outcome will be announced.

Pete Neilson
9 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:58:46
Pretty sure the Premier League previously announced that any points deductions for us or Man City would be applied next season.

Any new cases will be dealt with under their “fast track” process and have points deducted in the current season.

Andrew Ellams
10 Posted 25/10/2023 at 13:59:36
Alan, even with 6, the precedent will have Man City in the 4th division of their local Sunday League, right?
Barry Hesketh
11 Posted 25/10/2023 at 14:04:35

If you were responding to my post, there's no need to assume anything, I put the source and time and date of the report. The only thing I couldn't do was read the complete article as it's behind a paywall.

Colin Glassar
12 Posted 25/10/2023 at 14:07:26
Even if found guilty, there is an appeals process (see Man City) which can drag on for years (if we can afford to pay for the lawyers that is)… right?
Barry Hesketh
13 Posted 25/10/2023 at 14:14:16

The club can certainly appeal any decision, but I don't think it will be a long-drawn-out process.

The independent commission will be chosen by Murray Rosen KC, who is currently the chair of the Premier League Judicial Panel. He will select a three-member panel to form the commission, which will meet behind closed doors.

These can be selected from among the 15 members of the Judicial Panel or from outside the organisation. Either party, Everton or the Premier League, can appeal the judgment, which would then go to the Premier League Appeal Panel.

Everton referred

Barry Hesketh
14 Posted 25/10/2023 at 14:25:06

Ignore my post in my previous response, but you should have made it clearer that what you posted was a tweet from the Fan Advisory Board. No sweat.

Jay Harris
15 Posted 25/10/2023 at 14:56:16
The red media is at it again floating the idea of 12 point deduction.

How the hell does a no-mark journalist know what the Premier League are demanding?

No respectable Premier League representative would say anything prior to the hearing and decision.

No mention of Newcastle, Forest or Chelsea either – let alone Man City's alleged 100+ breaches.

Iain Latchford
16 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:06:41
Regardless of anything else, the timing of the press running a story like this is an utter disgrace.
Steve Dowdeswell
17 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:12:29
So if we get a maximum points deduction as a penalty for breaking P&S rules – if found guilty by the independent commission, not the media – then can we assume the precedent has been set and all other cases will follow suit?

I think we all know the answer to that question when you look at the names of the teams involved.

Maybe we would be better going into administration now as it would be a lesser punishment, going by what happened to Portsmouth.

Michael Kenrick
18 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:41:44
I'm just so dubious how these journos get their stories. Has to be 'leading the witness' by asking a series of questions of somebody until they get the response "Well, yes, the maximum we'd ask for would be a 12-point deduction … but it could be a lot less and it could be suspended until they get their house in order." — with the last bit conveniently ignored.

Meanwhile, here is the real extent of the jeopardy we potentially face "in the case of a Respondent which is a Club:

Suspend it from playing in League Matches or any matches in competitions which form part of the Games Programmes or Professional Development Leagues (as those terms are defined in the Youth Development Rules) for such period as it thinks fit;

Deduct points scored or to be scored in League Matches or such other matches [as above];

Recommend that the League expels the Respondent from membership [of the League];

Order the Respondent to pay compensation unlimited in amount to any Club (or clubs);

Cancel or refuse the registration of a Player registered or attempted to be registered in contravention of these Rules;

Impose upon the Respondent any combination of the foregoing or such
other penalty as it shall think fit;

Make any such penalty conditional, including imposing the penalty unless a defined action is taken by the Respondent within a defined period of time;

Order the Respondent to pay such sum by way of costs as it shall think fit which may include the fees and expenses of members of the Commission;

Make such other order as it thinks fit."

Source: Premier League Handbook 2023-24

Brian Harrison
19 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:43:17
See John Walters, the ex-Stoke and ex-Bolton player who was born in Moreton, has said:

”Amazing to read the Premier League are recommending Everton get a 12-point deduction if found guilty. Yet when 6 Premier League clubs met in secret to destabilise the Premier league by joining a breakaway ESP league their punishment was a measly fine.”

To borrow a quote that Bill Kenwright used at a Hillsborough memorial at Anfield, he said the authorities have picked on the wrong City and the wrong Mums.

Maybe we need to change the wording slightly and tell the Premier League: wrong club and wrong fans, who wont lie down and let you walk over us.

Pat Kelly
20 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:44:17
“The Premier League has recommended that Everton face a 12-point deduction in its case against them for breaching profit and sustainability rules, the Telegraph has learnt.

Everton are facing the threat of severe sanctions if they lose their fight against allegedly breaking the Premier League’s financial regulations, with a decision due later this year.

Telegraph Sport understands the Premier League has recommended the punishment to be extremely severe, and up to a maximum of 12 points. Such a sanction would put them in grave risk of going down, given the team’s relegation battles in recent seasons and precarious current position of 16th, three points off the relegation zone.”

Bring it on. This will galvanise the team.

Paul Tran
21 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:46:59
The words 'up to' are carrying a lot of weight, aren't they?
Paul Birmingham
22 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:50:24
Where's the proof?

And if this is true, it opens a big can of worms for other clubs and the Premier League.

Kieran Kinsella
23 Posted 25/10/2023 at 15:52:49
If 12 points is the max, and if we are found guilty on our one charge, why would they deduct 12 points knowing Man City face 101 charges?

Surely there's a range based on the offences? Or is it like the Bloody Code where every offence from murder to stealing a handkerchief gets the death penalty?

Paul Hewitt
24 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:01:58
Relegate us. Your league is full of corruption. Won't miss it one bit.
Paul Tran
25 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:07:08
Kieran, I think we can file this under 'clickbait headline with inconvenient facts in the article'.
Kieran Kinsella
26 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:14:25

I expect so. Isn't this hearing today? Guess we will soon find out…

Brian Wilkinson
27 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:15:08
Is this the same Premier League who refused to dock points for six teams who broke a separate rule by not putting it in writing first, to the Premier League that they were moving to a super league, and then had their measly £1 Million fine each team written off.

It might well be a separate incident, but rules were broken and punishment should have been served.

Is it any wonder people know the Premier League is corrupt to the core, looking after the elite few?

If we have broken the rules, then we deserve to get punished, but others should not be allowed to get away with breaking rules.

Mark Ryan
28 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:19:28
Did they think this was the best time to deliver this message?

Did they think “We'll kick em while they're down”?

Well bring it on, we'll show them what a proper Football Club we are, bring it on.

Out of adversity UTFT's

Minik Hansen
29 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:20:44
Bill from heaven, do something miraculous to our beloved club. COYB
Barry Hesketh
30 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:23:30
According to Joe Thomas and Chris Beesley of the Echo:

Regardless of what the Premier League are 'recommending' in Everton's Financial Fair Play case - it will be the independent commission who decide on any potential sanctions if the club were to be found guilty of any breaches of rules.

The ECHO understands that the independent commission – not the Premier League – holds full sway when it comes to the final decision-making process.

In the event of a breach being found, the next step would be that the commission decide upon any sanctions and if any sanctions such as a points deduction were agreed upon then it would also be at the discretion of the commission to decide upon which season to impose them, whether that be current, retrospectively (the charge relates to the 2021/22 season) or in a future campaign.

What will happen to Everton next after Premier League points deduction 'threat'

Jamie Crowley
31 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:26:14
The way this is worded is beyond dramatic manipulation of emotions (read "CLICK HERE").

Up to...

Would recommend...

if they ding us, they have to absolutely crush man City.

All this seems ridiculous. Have the damn hearing and stop the predictions. Then slap us on the wrist with a transfer ban or some such thing.

I would be shocked if they dock us any points at all.

We'll see.

Kieran Kinsella
32 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:27:58

I realize you're just sharing this story but how on Earth would a retrospective points deduction work?

Would we lose some TV money? Would the league table have an asterisk saying “should have been relegated”? That seems like a nonsense kind of punishment that would surely set up a legal storm with the relegated clubs.

Paul Hewitt
33 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:29:10
Can't wait for the big 6 to break away. Then let's see what the Premier League are left with.
Barry Hesketh
34 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:30:12

I imagine that particular eventuality would only come into play, if the hearing was concluded between seasons.

Alan Corken
35 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:35:27
Quite frankly, this article offers no insight or indication of what is happening or what punishment if any we will receive.

Apart from 'recommended... up to a maximum of 12 points' what does it say?

It is all journalisic padding or, more accurately, flummery, malarkey, crock, drivel, poppycock or perhaps even prattle, tattle, palaver or the one I prefer... twaddle!

What exactly do they mean by 'recommended'? And up to 12 points?

So according to this, for want of a better word, article (tho please feel free to substitute any of my previous adjectives)... they 'recommended' (whatever that means), a punishment that could be up to 12 points.

Well, stab me vitals! That is the same as saying they 'recommended' (whatever that means), that, if guilty we should be punished from a range of possible punishments!

And here's the thing: up to 12 points could, just as likely, include ordering Farhad to do a bit of volunteering work down at the local Oxfam!

The most irritating thing about this is not just that it is misleading bordering on mendacious, that has become par for the course when reporting on anything Everton. It is the fact that the Telegraph should choose to indulge in such vacuous story on the day after our Chairman died.

Andrew James
37 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:40:59
You couldn't make their timing up.

I might be missing something here but I don't know how it seems to be Everton getting all the headlines about financial breaches. And, how is it that Man City didn't face stiff action over a decade ago when they were spending a fortune but not deriving revenue from the Champions League etc?

Similarly, how are Newcastle currently evading censure?

I'm also not sure why we ourselves didn't get into hot water earlier? We were spending silly amounts in 2017 and 2018 with nothing much to show for it in league finishes, trophies or European qualifications?

Yet it has only taken until when we have significantly fallen down the table and faced two relegation battles that they want to make a points deduction that will have it's most devastating consequences than at any time between 2016 and 2021.

Brian Wilkinson
38 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:44:30

Classic that one, the thought of Farhad working in Oxfam, or doing community work with his high vis vest on, picking chippy paper up, after a match, to work the punishment off.

Paul O'Neill
39 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:48:17
Let’s all settle down and see what happens before we listen to that vindictive Tory rag.
Alan J Thompson
40 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:50:37
So that's our penalty… now all we have to do is find out if we are guilty.

And then, after three clear Sundays, you will drop to the Championship where you will file for bankruptcy as there'll be no chance of paying off the debt.

Danny Baily
41 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:58:30
I suspect that, if we are found to have breached the rules, our punishment will take the form of a substantial suspended fine.

I don't see a points deduction as a likely outcome. The article simply states that a maximum points deduction of 12 points could be recommended.

Joe Hurst
42 Posted 25/10/2023 at 16:59:22
This could destroy the club we love!
Eddie Dunn
43 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:03:17
Why would the Premier League recommend a 12-point deduction when the independent commission have been appointed to adjudicate?

Is the independent commission deciding the punishment or is the Premier League deciding with the Board’s simply rubber-stamping the decision?

It all sounds like a stitch-up to me.

Man City, Chelsea and Notts Forest have all flouted the rules, some for many years.

Why would our paltry single offence shoot to the top of the list?

Eddie Dunn
44 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:08:42
If we do get a points deduction, I would be happy to demonstrate outside the Premier League headquarters in Paddington.

Surely we could mobilise our fan base and put the shits up the suits in West London.

Paul Kossoff
45 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:13:52
Dyche should go on radio and TV saying what a bunch of heartless bastards the Premier League are.

In bed with murdering systems buying clubs, no problem.

Letting West Ham off from points deduction for playing illegal players because they didn't want to see west ham supporters with tears in their eyes, no problem.

Bending over backwards to make sure Liverpool didn't go under, no problem.

Announcing this on the day after Bill Kenwright died, unforgivable. We have had the knife in our backs from these bastards for a long time now, this just delivered the killer blow.

How can an independent commission be advised on what to do? With Everton it never rains but it pours.

Roger Helm
46 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:14:57
Recommending a punishment before even knowing the result shows how biased and unfair the whole process is, and what an agenda some people have. On a pro rata punishment, Man City would have to start next season in the National League.

For that reason alone, I can't see it happening. If it does, hire the best KC and the best PR company available and keep fighting.

Barry Hesketh
47 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:18:53
If the commission did find us guilty and did impose a maximum points deduction, could the club agree to take the punishment, but only, in instalments, ie, 1 point per year for 12 years, we're pretty good at negotiating these type of deals. :)
Tony Everan
48 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:20:26
“Should” the panel find us guilty.

“Could” dock us up to 12 points.

Sounds like click bait to me, but if I've any slight concern about it, there's some kind of information management going on.

Such that, when the 6-point deduction is handed out, plus the probation and advance accounts submission, it seems fair, lenient and prevents a backlash.

If they give us 12 points deducted, where does that leave Man City and their 101 charges 101 x 12 = a 1212 points deduction. They'll be playing on Buckley Hill for the next 25 years.

Brian, well pointed out, the punishment for negotiating behind the Premier League's back on starting a Super League, a fine which was a complete irrelevance.

Dave Abrahams
49 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:22:47
Who appoints the people who will form the independent commission and will we be told who these people are?
Dan Parker
50 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:26:17
Rob Halligan
51 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:28:58

If 12 points is the maximum for one charge, then Man City should, or could, possibly face a points deduction 1212 points.

So hand back all them Premier League trophies, FA Cups, league cups, one Champions League, and fuck off to the Manchester Sunday league!

Danny O’Neill
52 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:37:32
Lazy speculative journalism.

We're playing West Ham at the weekend. I don't care about anything else right now.

Win that and then it's only 9 points. Three games.

I'm going for a fine and transfer embargo. If there is a points deduction, I think it would be delayed a season as there would be an appeal.

And then what do they do with Man City (115 offences to our one)? And no doubt others. It will open a can of worms that we can rightfully point the finger at.

Tony Everan
53 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:41:47

It's top secret but I hope it's not Jim Beglin, John Aldridge and Craig Pawson as the chair.

Rob 🤣 Grade 9 maths GCSE here we come.

Rob Halligan
54 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:42:15
Sorry, Tony,…… just seen your post!
Jim Wilson
55 Posted 25/10/2023 at 17:58:31
Wasn't it the Telegraph who came up with the bent bananas before the Brexit vote?
Ben King
56 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:00:31
Many posters on here seem to think the points deduction is a nonsense based on the Man City charges

But that assumes the misdemeanours are comparable and that a level of consistency will be applied

We all know that Everton seem to be mire harshly treated than other clubs for whatever reason so I'd ignore looking for consistency

I can believe that we'll be docked points because the footballing authorities have it in for us and also because, if we're found guilty, it's not like we're a fiver over: we were x3 the permitted amount.

Now we can point to Covid and subsequent good behaviour and that may all play a part in the sentencing but, in respect of guilt or not, I suspect that will be irrelevant.

Sadly I can see us being docked points this season. Irritating.

David Peate
57 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:00:35
BMD, 777, RIP, -12. Everton FC does not have time to play football with all the hassle surrounding the club.
Bobby Mallon
58 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:02:54

The cunts are going to make a point of fucking us over (just like the retrospective penalty ban) so the government don't set up their commission and find out just what a bunch of cheating money laundering cunts the Premier League is.

Denis Richardson
59 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:34:46
Whilst the content seems to be nonsense, I think we all know something’s coming down the line.

Not much point in fining us as we haven't got any money so points deduction and/or transfer embargo it will likely be. The latter may not really be a penalty in any case (see first point above).

If it is a points deduction, I'm not sure how they could award it retrospectively as we'd be playing in the wrong division and presumably one of the relegated clubs from last year will sue someone.

If it's this season, then anything above 6 points and I think we're down barring a minor miracle. 6 or below and we've got a fighting chance. If it's 12 but starting next season, then a) we definitely down next season, and b) what happens if we drop this season? We start the Championship on -12 and basically drop into League One?

Some big big weeks coming up for EFC.

John Pickles
60 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:44:00
A lot of players will be on the phone to their agents tonight, and a lot of clubs will be halving any bids they were going to make for our players in the January window.
Ian Riley
61 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:44:31
Like the refereeing decisions on Saturday. It's all fair and equal. Everton need to get the top barristers from London on this. Let's not be the example!
David Nicholls
62 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:46:09
I think we are quite capable of hitting 52 points this season…
Paul Birmingham
63 Posted 25/10/2023 at 18:47:27
There's no proof, and until facts are provided and are from a valid source, this is speculation.
Let's see, what comes out in the next few weeks, from the EPL.

Tony Abrahams
64 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:05:34
Would it be the worst thing when looking at the longer term ramifications?

I'm honestly not sure (it doesn't really make sense to believe this would help Everton) but who genuinely wants 777?

And if something like this does happen, then maybe Moshiri will have to sell to others before our club is forced into administration?

With the passing of Bill Kenwright, maybe this is going to be our darkest hour, before a brand new dawn.

Ray Roche
65 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:06:30

I'm on the outside of three large G+T's, each of which would refloat the Bismark.

Not even I can see 52 points. In fact, even though I'm seeing two of everything…

Jim Wilson
66 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:13:08
Ian – spot on mate.

What is the worst crime?

Over spending because of club incompetence (easy to prove) or going behind the back of the Premier League to secretly form a new competition (easy to prove).

Get the Premier League in court and they will soon about turn.

Chris Leyland
67 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:14:32
David, I actually think it we hit 44 points we'd be safe with a 12 point deduction this season.

Luton, Sheff Utd and Burnley won't get more than 32 point each is my prediction.

Brian Ronson
68 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:20:24
Given the Telegraph journalist wouldn't have completely made this up, it means the Premier League have an employee who is leaking confidential information to a journalist.

Perhaps the Premier League should be looking at themselves more closely.

Christy Ring
69 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:32:02
1) Did the Premier League not clear us of any irregularities a few months earlier?

2) If the investigation is being done by an independent commission, the Premier League have no say on sanctions.

3) Private and confidential, how did the Guardian get the article?

4) If Man City were charged well before us, on 111 more charges, how are we being investigated first?

It also stinks that the Guardian printed this a day after the sad passing of our chairman, shame on them.

Our club is definitely been targeted constantly by the Mail and Guardian.

The Premier League have a short memory considering we were one of the biggest clubs to back them, when the greedy 6 tried to sneak away. What were their sanctions for trying to break up the league?

John Keating
70 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:46:05
Christy, spot on with all points.

The dickhead that spun this story should be hauled over the coals for misinformation.

If the arsehole was proven to be correct, then whoever leaked the story should be named and shamed and the result made invalid for breaking Premier League and independent commission rules.

Dave Abrahams
71 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:48:26
Tony, thanks for your reply.

Strange though if it is a secret judge and jury, do they wear masks while questioning whoever defends us and keep them on while sending us down?

Stuart Sharp
72 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:49:34
Christy - it was the Daily Telegraph, not the Guardian. The Guardian have simply reported what was in the other paper.

I really don't think the Guardian has an agenda against us. The BBC, and of course the Premier League, are of course a different matter.

Hans Fyhrqvist
73 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:52:31
I have thought many weeks, after making quite many comments in various YouTube videos, also to comment here in ToffeeWeb, about this issue of the alleged breach of the P&S rules by Everton.

Now that the Telegraph has published news that the Premier League would recommend a 12-point deduction to Everton, if found guilty, I decided to put my thoughts here, too.

I have held this view that, if Everton are accused of one breach of the P&S rules, and punished for that in some extent, then Manchester City, who have 115 allegations against them relating to various breaches in the FFP rules over many years, should be punished accordingly.

I know that the investigations and the hearings are done by two independent commissions, as of course the procedure must be, but there must be connection in the consequences which will follow after the verdicts. I mean that both clubs must be treated with the same principles and the possible punishments must be related to each other.

Equal treatment for all, especially under jurisdiction, or any kind of investigation, that has been the norm in our democratic societies for a long time.

So we can say, leniently, that only 30 or 40 of the 115 alleged breaches made by Manchester City, merit the same penalty as Everton´s 1 breach. And if the penalty for Everton for that 1 breach is, say 5 or even as much as 12 points deduction, so accordingly City must get with our -5 points 150 or 200 points deduction, and with our -12 points City must suffer 360 or 480 points deduction. Otherwise, there is no respectability, and moreover no integrity in the actions of the Premier League and its independent commissions.

Hope those who represent Everton in our hearings bring this aspect forward, too, and stick to this attitude with unyielding stance. Of course the best outcome for Everton would be no punishment at all, or if some, then only fines. A short transfer embargo would also be better than points deductions. But all Evertonians should follow how we are dealt with in relation to Manchester City.

It also shows no sense of discretion by the Premier League if they really have made this recommendation just now, or by the Telegraph if they have speculated with this matter without any real evidence from the Premier League, a day or two after our Chairman passed away. Where is that famous English Gentleman code?

The culprits of this news should be ashamed of themselves by putting this up in the hour of the mourning of Everton Football Club.

Brendan McLaughlin
74 Posted 25/10/2023 at 19:56:02

"1) Did the Premier League not clear us of any irregularities a few months earlier?"

Pretty sure they didn't but what makes you think that?

Tony Abrahams
75 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:15:27
I think modern football reflects modern life, Hans, and I personally think the modern Premier League is vulgar, with the English Gentleman Code nothing more than a thing from the past!
Christy Ring
76 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:16:08

Weren't the club in talks with the Premier League at the time, and sold Richarlison to stay on the right side of the P&S rules?

Ian Jones
77 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:28:20
I notice that, as of 8 pm, the BBC does not have any reports on their site about an update from the commission. It would be great to think they have decided not to run the story for a few days under the circumstances. Not the best timing.
Christine Foster
78 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:35:31
The perfect patsy. When the charge was raised and referred to the independent commission, I said we were going to be made another example of. Irrespective of context, impact or validity or even any resemblance of fairness or comparison to other clubs transgressions, spending, rule breaking etc.

No, we must be made an example of. The opportunity is too good to miss to make a chest beating statement that does not hurt any other club. A sacrifice is needed.

We may be led by incompetent fools, but it is the fans and the game that will suffer.

An intended leak to pressure the commission and show how big they are.

I am not going to feel hard done by in this game of chicken because we all know and understand what's going on. But exactly who and why it's being done to us is the question. An individual in the Premier League is driving such recommendations, someone with an agenda and significant influence, plays like this don't just happen, they are driven like any vendetta.

If this is not a made up story of clickbait and The Telegraph are just running with it, who, on the day after the death of the club's chairman, would want so badly to put the boot in to the club?

Corruption is not just about money, it's about power aand the EPL have absolute power.

Brendan McLaughlin
79 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:44:23
Unfortunately Christy,

I think the extent to which the Premier League were overseeing Everton's finances has been greatly exaggerated. Added to that the sale of Richarlison only balanced the books for the 3-year period ending 20-21.

The charges relate to the period ending 21-22.

David West
80 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:45:01
Chances are there will be one London kopite on this panel, probably have a Man Utd fan on there too, who won't likely hold back against the scousers.

Why don't they just hold the independent commission in the Sandon with Lego head Gerrard, fat teeth Klopp, and Graham Sourness and be done with it?

Hardly independent and impartial with all the negativity and speculation being thrown at us.

Tony Everan
81 Posted 25/10/2023 at 20:50:18
Christine, I was thinking the same, trying to ramp up pressure and influence the independent commission as they are about to reach their conclusions.

The stakes are so high, the source of this leak needs investigation. Who is the driving force, does he or she have an agenda?

It's the same as interfering with a jury when in deliberation. Why can't they leave it alone and let them come to what's meant to be an independent decision?

Lee Courtliff
82 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:04:12
It would almost be worth the 12-point deduction, if we still survived, just to see the Siege Mentality take hold of Goodison!

The atmosphere at every home game would be like the Palace game from last season!

Brian Wilkinson
83 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:12:58
John Percy, who contributed the article in the paper, is based in the Midlands, and a Forest fan.

Coincidence that Leicester City were one of the teams relegated and might benefit from sueing Everton.

It might come back to bite him on the arse when they come after Leicester City and Forest, who will be next on their list, before Man City or Chelsea.

Like I said a few months ago, I see us getting a slap on the wrist and possible 12-month transfer embargo, then they can justify handing out the same to Man City, we will be the example to put the fear of god into other clubs, then let City get off with a 12-month transfer embargo as well.

We will soon find out…

Ernie Baywood
84 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:15:25
Points deduction opens a huge can of worms... relegated clubs will sue and they'll be setting precedents that they don't want to live up to.

The 'Independent Commission' is a smokescreen. They'll do what the VAR does for referees.

I'm more concerned about us reaching 33 points than I am about points deductions.

Chris Corn
85 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:17:26
I have it from a very credible source, Everton expect a fine at most.

Man City have refuted their charges saying they are without merit and won't deal with the independent commission Chair, Murray Rosen KC, as he is an Arsenal fan. Good strategy.

The Premier League giving Everton a points deduction of that magnitude sets a massive precedent with City's charges outstanding and their previous.

Everton will have clear grounds for appeal, which suggests to me they are confident they won't get that severe a punishment.

Christy Ring
86 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:20:52
Brendan #79, we sold Richarlison in July 2022?
Nick Page
87 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:45:52
Didn't wait long did they. The fucking diabolical bastards. Don't be surprised if Everton Football Club are made an example of, again.

Athletic will be rubbing their hands.

Chris Corn
88 Posted 25/10/2023 at 21:46:19
Ernie, I wonder how can all the relegated clubs sue? Four still would have gone down regardless.

Also, Everton have a net transfer spend of circa £185m in Moshiri's tenure. The last 5 years have been virtually nothing. They can't say we have a squad advantage due to spending as our squad was absolute gash.

These clubs should really look at themselves for being unable to finish above one of the worst Everton squads ever in the last two seasons. Pretty embarrassing for them seeking compensation if you ask me and, even if it was credible, just tie it up in legal red tape for years.

Same as the independent commission, who clearly can't be independent if the Premier League can "demand" a points deduction. That's clearly undue influence. Load of hot air IMO.

Denis Richardson
89 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:00:26
Chris 85, whilst I'd hope we only get a fine, I can't see us getting off that lightly. Not just because of us but also Man City.

A fine for City is essentially saying they can do what they want and I can't see the other clubs settling for that. Transfer embargo feels more likely than just a fine.

David West
90 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:00:41
Tony 81. I was hinting at your point.

Are this "independent" commission shielding themselves from media and speculation?

If they have read or watched sports news lately relating to Everton and all the negativity from the Mail, Guardian, Independent – even the Metro sticking a foot in at us, then surely that has some implications to an "independent" body that could serve a sanction on a club, business and community that employs a lot of people.

Not just the club and our status as a Premier League team, but the wider implications of us being relegated due to a points deduction. People losing their jobs and livelihoods.

The implications are massive. Who are these people who will decide the fate of so many?

Can they be trusted to make an honest, impartial assessment?

So much will be decided by these individuals, yet what do we know of them?

Chris Corn
91 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:02:12
Denis 89... business as usual then, eh, mate?!!! 😆

Think the Man City ship has sailed. The European Courts decided they could do what they want when overturning the Uefa ban.

The Premier League also decided the breakaway 6 could do what they want when they tried to rip the Premier League apart with the European Super League. Where were the points deductions and embargoes there?

Brendan McLaughlin
92 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:02:27
Ha ha, Christy #86

You bought into the hype around Richarlison's sale so much that you believed it got us the all-clear from the Premier League for the season in question. It didn't.

I bought into the hype so much that I believed Richarlison's sale must have happened a season earlier. It didn't.

I stand corrected but unfortunately, even with the sale of Richarlison, we weren't given the all-clear and the Premier League still believe we breached P&S guidelines that season.

Christine Foster
93 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:17:32
I wonder when we will actually learn what the alleged transgression is? After the ruling? Is it horrendous? An accountancy error? How can the press report on a recommended outcome to an alleged crime not stated, that no-one knows any details about?

"Hang him!"
"What's he done?"
"Doesn't matter, hang him!"
"Who is accusing him of a crime?"
"Who cares, Hang him!"

I wonder if The Telegraph and Daily Mail existed around the time of the crucifixion?

Geoff Gordon
94 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:18:45
What makes anyone think that whatever happens to us will create a precedence?

I seem to recall Omar Niasse getting a suspension for basically “fooling the officials” or whatever it was. We see exactly the same happening every week but no suspensions. Precedents seem to only apply when it suits!

George Stuart
95 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:21:05
Wow. They really hate us.

I think it's because we have the potential to crack the Fox 6.
Not with this team. But the real club. Us the fans.

Also, we do pull a significant number of fans away from brand number two, Liverpool.

Barry Hesketh
96 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:21:59
My real concern with all of this is that, once Moshiri stated that Everton faced an existential threat, it showed that we are in a very weak financial state and therefore the threat of administration had become a real possibility, even if it might not turn out that way.

The people who run the game are only interested in good news stories for their brand and sponsors and anything that spoils the image of the league will be frowned upon.

Everton are not too big to fail, but it is too big a club to fail without sending a few shock-waves throughout the industry and beyond and it would create bad optics for the Premier League itself.

Therefore, seeing Everton drop out of the Premier League and become a problem club for the Football League, might suit some of the more strident advocates of the Premier League.

If the commission doesn't find the club guilty, and we jump that particular hurdle, there is still more than a chance that the various administrative bodies could prevent the takeover by 777 Partners, which might spell administration and an automatic points penalty, which could also ultimately result in relegation.

This is possibly the most critical season of Everton's entire history, and most of it can't be controlled by the club or the players out on the pitch. If we open the new stadium as a Premier League outfit, we should all be truly thankful.


Barry Hesketh
97 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:26:37
Christine @93,

I'm pretty certain that Matt Hughes is related to a Roman scribe according to his family tree.

David West
98 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:31:18

The Mail probably invented crucifixion!!!

They are drooling, foaming at the mouth for the story, begging the authorities to dock us points. All so they can have a few days of crappie stories about us.

Ian Riley
99 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:38:32
A point deduction places a terrible scar on the brand known as the Premier League. After years and years watching other clubs spend like mad, we are likely to be dealt the hammer blow.

Like I said previously, you pay top dollar for top barristers, experts in their field. They will scrutinise every detail and previous punishments handed out. I accept if we are in the wrong we should be punished but setting a harsher punishment to set an example is simply wrong and unfair.

The courts are waiting. Take it to the top. Nothing to lose!

Laurie Hartley
100 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:46:10
Three questions come to mind for me:-

1. Who picks the individuals that make up the panel of the “independent” commission?
2. Who are they?
3. What are their credentials?

Personally I think “they” have a grudge on us for being involved with Alisher Usmanov.

Nick Page
101 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:46:11
The Premier League mob have been after us since the 3-2 vs Wimbledon. Look at the shit we've had thrown at us for what feels like an eternity.

Everton are also a problem for the chip-on-their-shoulder red bastards who would dance on our grave despite John Moores funding their transfers back in the day, and then his nephew. Anything and everything we ever do for them is thrown back in our faces.

But the league doesn't want an Everton unless that Everton has an incredibly wealthy owner, preferably a sovereign, who will grease their palms and promote the Premier League. And they definitely didn't want a Monaco-based Iranian bookkeeper who allegedly fronted for one of Putin's oligarchs.

The media in this country is also culpable. Sky 6 is their bread and butter. But fear not – they'll all die off pretty soon as kids don't buy it anymore. Listening to some media gobshite on Sky now – they haven't got a clue.

If this happens it won't happen again. And I absolutely bet they'll push this through. Nailed on. The Man City case will just disappear up its own arse of money. And then we're at major risk of bankruptcy and losing the stadium. Play it through.

Barry Hesketh
102 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:49:14
Laurie @100,

I posted this information earlier in the day on this thread:

The independent commission will be chosen by Murray Rosen KC, who is currently the chair of the Premier League Judicial Panel. He will select a three-member panel to form the commission, which will meet behind closed doors.

These can be selected from among the 15 members of the Judicial Panel or from outside the organisation. Either party, Everton or the Premier League, can appeal the judgment, which would then go to the Premier League Appeal Panel.

Tom Bowers
103 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:51:32
First of all, whoever at the Premier League floated this out to the Telegraph before anyone else should be fired!!

If indeed the commission is still to be notified and the club, then once again that is a blight against the idiots running the league.

If the rules have been broken, then all other teams that have come under scrutiny and been found guilty should get the same penalty, even if it is one of the filthy rich clubs and at the same time as Everton.

Never rains but it pours, eh?

Kevin Edward
104 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:53:57
The timing of this Telegraph ‘exclusive' or made up news or whatever is despicable.

Who's going to stand up for our club?

This nonsense has gone on long enough, I'm sick of the attitude directed at EFC from match officials, self-serving pundits, journalists etc.

There's a bad smell coming from the Premier League, I really hope we make a stand and come out fighting to ensure other clubs have the same exposure to whatever precedent the independent commission is wanting to set on us.

Nick Page
105 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:56:20
100% agreed Kevin Edward
Barry Hesketh
106 Posted 25/10/2023 at 22:58:28
Kevin @104,

Every news outlet under the sun has run this story based on the original Telegraph article, so none of the major print media outlets have covered themselves in glory, but let's be honest: most of them don't have a heart or a soul, even if they sometimes pretend that they have.

Dan Parker
107 Posted 26/10/2023 at 00:41:59
Just reminded me of the movie Breaker Morant. Couldn't be more fitting. They need to make an example of a big club and it can't be the darling Sky clubs so they'll throw the book at us and promptly close it.
Mark Taylor
108 Posted 26/10/2023 at 01:00:25
I tend to agree with others that this, in a narrow sense, is a non-story, signifying very little.

Its greatest significance is that it indicates the degree of probability, after the last miserable decade, of the club as we know it effectively being extinguished before our eyes.

We have no board or senior management to speak of, an owner who has essentially disowned us, can't or won't fund us anymore, leaving us way closer to administration than many seem to think. A carcass for vultures to pick over.

That it has come to this...

Ernie Baywood
109 Posted 26/10/2023 at 01:05:17
I don't care what they claim to demand. It's not in the Premier League's interests to enforce a huge points deduction on Everton. It's in their interests to quietly punish us and point to how we did everything possible to avoid the position we found ourselves in but were hampered by Covid.

Anything else casts a huge shadow over the integrity of the game and the league (like there is any). It goes beyond relegation and right up to Euro qualification and titles.

Their independent committee will reach the right answer or they'll never get one of these sweetly remunerated gigs again. They will have been selected by someone who also appreciates where their paydays come from.

Didn't you ever watch Yes, Minister?

I don't even know if we've really flouted the rules... I just believe it's not in the league's best interests to find us guilty and punish us harshly.

For what it's worth, I'd happily see us punished if the same rules apply to others. The game needs some rules and the big clubs currently do whatever they want. But we know the rules won't be applied evenly... so that's barely worth talking about.

Mick Davies
110 Posted 26/10/2023 at 01:30:56

No respectable Premier League representative would say anything prior to the hearing and decision.

Could that be described as an oxymoron?

George Stuart
111 Posted 26/10/2023 at 02:18:37
Hang on. I'm not very bright but "independent commission to ascertain if we have broken the rules. Premier League's position is, fine them 12 points". Hang on, is this deeper and are we not the prime target here?

From 2010 Rugby League universe

On 22 April 2010, the Melbourne Storm were stripped of their titles of 2007 and 2009 Premierships and their 2006, 2007 and 2008 minor Premierships following an alleged insider tip-off to the NRL auditing body that the club had not been complying with the NRL salary cap.

Deep thought: Are Man City the real target here? They are on the outer but are sweeping the board.

Naarh. Just nobody likes us.

Laurie Hartley
112 Posted 26/10/2023 at 02:22:26
Barry #102 – thanks for re-posting this and apologies for not paying more attention.

Murray Rosen KC it seems is an arbitrator and Arsenal season ticket holder. I couldn't find anything about the actual identity of the panel members but it seems that, if the panel has already been chosen and is sitting, Everton haven't challenged the selection. We have to wait and see what drops.

Kevin #104 – "Who is going to stand up for our club?"

Well, Bill Kenwright has been ill and has passed away so it seems to me it is down to us. That is why we have to get behind the manager and players.

He might not be the greatest manager in the world but I am sure he has plenty of fight in him. Likewise, we may not have the greatest group of players in our squad but I have seen signs that they have fight in them.

Nevertheless he is our manager and they are our players. The match-going fans have a very important role to play. If we get a points deduction which, regrettably, I think is on the cards, we have to help them get another 35 to 41 points.

Jerome Shields
113 Posted 26/10/2023 at 04:45:48
As of yet, we do not know the specific breach that has occurred. However, we do know the period it relates to.

It arose after the Final Accounts were made available, and Everton was informed by the Premier League in August of last year, following a two-year monitoring period, that they were within the necessary Profit and Sustainability parameters.

Something appears to have changed their opinion. The terms of reference for the independent commission will be set, including recommendations regarding the limits of their power to impose a penalty.

Everton will need to provide evidence to support their confident assertions of not being in breach, and they also have the right to appeal.

The penalty, if imposed, will be for the next season but subject to appeal, as the Premier League is unlikely to want to directly influence a current Premier League campaign mid-season.

As for why a Premier League independent commission has not been set up regarding Manchester City, who have been accused of over 100 breaches, and why UEFA is not acting regarding FFP rule breaches, it is unclear.

Chelsea has previously been investigated and their previous owner was scrutinized, leading to penalties and sanctions being imposed. It is possible that the current newspaper reports are speculative.

Derek Knox
114 Posted 26/10/2023 at 06:03:33
All this talk of crucifixion is making me cross here! :-)
Marc Hints
115 Posted 26/10/2023 at 06:14:55
If true, then this would work in Everton's favour, the Premier League asking for a points deduction before a hearing is finished is surely a breach of confidence and will bring the hearing into disrepute.

Paul Joyce is reporting it's a stadium issue, which can't be correct as this is exempt from Profitability and Sustainability Rules.

I would imagine anything reported before a hearing is complete will give Everton grounds to ask for a referral or even start a new hearing.

Mal van Schaick
116 Posted 26/10/2023 at 06:58:13
Amongst all the bluster, it will be a suspended points deduction and a fine, for what is a transgression based upon times of Covid, where Everton consulted with the Premier League regarding financial escapades.

To play it out further to appease Leeds and Burnley, the Premier League may announce a 12-point deduction and fine, and on appeal, it will be reduced to the above.

We can draw a comparison with Man City's case and punishment when that appears in the public domain in five years time, and what of Chelsea who spend £1 billion on transfers, but don't break financial rules?

The Premier League should tread carefully with their decision on Everton or else they could be taking trophies off Man City and that wouldn't bode well for their fake image.

Danny O’Neill
117 Posted 26/10/2023 at 07:39:43
I think that is a good point, Marc.

If there has been a leak and breach of confidence, then surely the entire enquiry is under the microscope and the focus has to be on why this information got out?

If true, there is a confidentiality issue, although the likelihood is speculative journalist gambling.

I keep saying, we play West Ham on Sunday. That's where our focus needs to be.

Eddie Dunn
118 Posted 26/10/2023 at 07:49:53
Of course the "leak" could be to see the reaction from the Everton fan base and other football pundits, like Carragher –who has compared us to Man City and like others, has noted that a points deduction for us would surely mean Man City going into the regional leagues!

The government used to regularly leak exaggerated bad news figures so that, when the actual ones came out, we had all got used to a possible worse scenario.

So 12 points, and we all freak out, but then 6 points and we swallow it meekly, just relieved it wasn't 12 after all.

Derek Thomas
119 Posted 26/10/2023 at 07:57:43
Infamy! Imfamy! - they've all got it Imfamy.
Jack Convery
120 Posted 26/10/2023 at 08:06:52
Kenneth Williams as Emperor of Rome - "Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it informe !! ".

Ask yourself this question - who led the response to the ESL wannabees leaving the EPL ? Everton did. Moshiri put a public statement condemning them.Who takes money away from the RS ? We do, just by existing.

The ESL will happen. There is so much money involved it cannot fail to do so. Sanctions from FIFA and UEFA won't stop them. Footballers and their agents will joyfully go too and any threat of being banned from World Cups and the Euros will land on deaf ears. For me it cannot come soon enough because playing in the EPL is a joke.

Teams attempting to compete are now prohibited by FFP rules that did not apply at the time, that City for instance, joined the so called elite. Teams outside the elite that make strides ie Leicester / Brighton, will have their best players plucked from them. and their momentum will be stopped in its tracks. We have been victims of this ourselves, Rooney, Lescott, Lukaku, Stones, Rodwell, Barkley, Pienaar, to name a few. Soon to be followed by Branthwaite and Onana. The money the elite now earn means they can offer £100m plus for players - Rice at Arsenal, Caicedo £116m at Chelsea - both players who only a couple of seasons ago would have cost less than £50m. The Chelsea squad is now valued at almost £1bn - transfer market. Evertons is £350m. Luton Towns is £87m !! Brighton the flavour of the month is £468m - still less than half of the Chelsea squad. Manchester Citys squad is worth £1.26bn - all figures from the Transfer Market website. In the long run even the RS ( £877m ), will be hard pressed to compete. Having just one team in a city certainly helps with the finances - ask Newcastle and Leeds. Perhaps the RS are hoping that, that scenario will play out for them too.

As for these articles about points deductions - ignore them. Though I do wonder if they would have put out such an article if Man U were the team under investigation, given the recent death of Sir Bobby Charlton - a man who perhaps died, despairing of, what had happened to the most beautiful game.

Marc Hints
121 Posted 26/10/2023 at 08:28:02
Danny #117

Yes exactly Danny so as you say I would file this as speculative journalist gambling.

Mark Murphy
122 Posted 26/10/2023 at 08:39:42
The Premier League is wearing very thin for me and the amount of obvious bias shown towards the “big 6” (or is it 7 now?) is just beyond parody. The sooner they fuck off to the ESL, and leave us to a level playing field the better. Fuck the PL, fuck the Tories and up the fucking toffees!
Tony Abrahams
123 Posted 26/10/2023 at 09:16:41
I can’t go along with the one team, one city bit Jack, but thanks for posting something that was mostly valid and very informative, mate.
Eric Myles
124 Posted 26/10/2023 at 09:23:54
All the newspapers refer to our breach of P&S rules for overspending even though we have allegedly been scrutinised by the Premier League along the way. The Premier League have even responded to concerns from other clubs that we are within the spending rules given certain exemptions for Covid, etc.

It's also been reported on these pages that the issue concerns the reported transfer of a single player (Dele Alli?) and also that it is an issue of taxes.

I have also read, but I don't know the source, somewhere on TW though, that the issue concerns VAT.

Now putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5, I'm speculating that it possibly has to do with the treatment of VAT on the Dele Alli transfer that has been brought to light by an inspection of our accounts compared to Spurs accounts.

Maybe the two clubs have reported (or not reported) the VAT on the transfer in a different manner and thus raised doubts?

Colin Glassar
125 Posted 26/10/2023 at 09:36:21
Same here, Mark 122. I've (almost) lost my love for the game which has obsessed me for a lifetime.

The lying, cheating, prima donna footballers. The obscene amounts of money (both dark and bloodstained) involved. The hypocrisy and corruption of the football authorities. Bent refs, VAR, weird kick-off times to satisfy overseas markets etc…

Plastic flags waved by plastic fans taking selfies. Inane punditry 24/7 by former players who can barely string two sentences together. Journalists who spread rumours to satisfy their paymasters (the richer clubs) rather than inform the public.

I could go on but it's too exhausting and soul-destroying. The game I loved is dead. This commercial monster has no soul. It's fixed, rigged and corrupt from top to bottom and in its present form we have no chance of ever returning to competing at the top end.

Daniel A Johnson
126 Posted 26/10/2023 at 09:36:41
Should, would, could… basically they don't know.

However, I wouldn't put it past the Premier League to make an example out of us with some sort of points deduction.

But I can guarantee the same charges applied to any of the Top 6 at the moment would not result in the same penalty.

The Premier League is corrupt and they are complicit in looking after the best clubs in the league to not kill their golden goose.

Everton? We're a big enough club to be made an example of but not important enough to them to look after.

Marc Hints
127 Posted 26/10/2023 at 09:57:06
Spot on, Colin.
Alan McGuffog
128 Posted 26/10/2023 at 10:45:27

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on.

Julie Naybour
129 Posted 26/10/2023 at 10:52:29
I have written to The Telegraph complaining about the disrespectful timing of this questionable article for a club in mourning. I have also questioned their source.

Of course, I don't expect an answer but I suggest as a group we all start to become keyboard warriors at this incredibly precarious time in our club's history.

Listening to ToffeeTV last night, discussing this issue, I agree we need to start being more vocal before they get away with making us the whipping boys.

I suspect this story came from a leak. If so, why?? And how disgraceful it was leaked during our so-called independent commission. Someone within the Premier League should be accountable.

If it wasn't a leak, how disgraceful to print the story and the journalist should be made accountable.

Of course, neither would happen but we still need to make our voices heard

We should be shouting louder – but always with reason and dignity.

Julie Naybour
130 Posted 26/10/2023 at 11:21:26
I suggest we all write to the Premier League to question this supposed information coming from them.

I agree with the earlier comment. A possible purpose of the leak, assuming it is, could be to test the waters.

Let's make the waters a bit more choppy – again I'm not recommending abuse, as we then lose all credibility; even though it's hard not to be.

The other clubs may be looking on optimistically but really if they had any sense they would be looking on with fear and support us.

Though they may be right in thinking we are the only ones who will recieve such punishment. I can just hear them now – Man City had more charges but they weren't as severe as Everton's.

Of course we still don't know what exactly we've been charged with, let alone our punishment. That in itself is suspect to me along with this independent commission being so closed.

Derek Knox
131 Posted 26/10/2023 at 11:35:25

I couldn't agree more, even apart from football issues and Everton of course. People in this country do not complain enough to the relevant 'authorities' (? a joke more often than not, calling them that) but will have a good moan (verbally) between each other.

Tim Welsh
132 Posted 26/10/2023 at 11:37:58
Like Julie says: Why don't we just ask them exactly what the charges are ?

Here is their contact email:


Does anyone else remember the army of pundits stating, in the wake of the would-be European Super League 'Big 6' breakaway conspiracy, that 'you can't dock the teams points, because that punishes the fans' ?

Let's see if that philosophy is applied to us if we are found culpable.

Update: I have just sent them a polite message. We should deluge them.

Roger Helm
133 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:07:20
It has always been the case that bigger clubs have been able to poach the better players of smaller club, and the bigger clubs have always had a better chance of trophies.

But the game is different now due to the huge amounts of money sloshing about the Premier League. The top clubs, often backed by sovereign wealth funds, can sign the best players not only from Britain but from the whole world. And the top clubs hoover up all the talent in order to earn even more money from the Champions League. Now of course they have pulled up the drawbridge so no-one else can join their club.

Also, the standard of refereeing is in my opinion a lot worse, and the refs seem to have half an eye on not upsetting the powers that be. It seems that clubs outside the Top 6 or so have almost no chance of competing, notwithstanding Leicester's "miracle" of a few years ago.

Steve Johnston
134 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:08:18
Colin @125

You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly how I have felt for the last few years. I thought watching non-league football would be better. It was for a while, but TBH, I don't enjoy the sport itself anymore. Strange.

Daniel @126,

Totally agree. It really is all about the Sky favourites and has been for a long time now. The rest of the Premier League (and other clubs) just complete the fixture list.

James Newcombe
135 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:18:43
Top post, Colin, the game gave up being a sport a long time ago.

I remember that there were plenty of withering voices just before the Premier League began, saying that the money was going to kill football – and they were proven right in fairly short order.

Christine Foster
136 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:22:59
Tim, just sent them an email but don't hold your breath for a substantive reply or even a response...
Barry Hesketh
137 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:26:43
I wonder if Everton are being used by the media, in order to go after their real target Manchester City.

Everton don't have any powerful advocates and certainly couldn't afford an expensive lawsuit in the current circumstances, therefore, it's easier for the media to highlight the case against our club, whilst simultaneously keeping Manchester City's charges in the headlines.

Anyway, here's a link to the Daily Mail's latest piece.

Are Everton being harshly treated?

Allen Rodgers
138 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:30:18
Like many others, I've sent an email to the Premier League, for all the good it will do. But if they get a few thousand asking the same questions, it might make them think?
Chris Corn
139 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:41:51
This issue about football being killed, James, doesn't really stack up. Morally it has, but since the Premier League started, it's been dominated by Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City in spells Blackburn, Liverpool and Leicester winning single titles.

I remember in the mid-90s having conversations with friends about why we'd struggle to get rid of Vinny Samways as he was on circa £7k a week. We continually said the bubble would burst.

It never has. More money keeps rolling in.

There's always been a hierarchy in the Premier League. We've just never been anywhere near it. Even when we regularly finished Top 5 or 6, there wasn't a "Big 6".

Man City forced their way in for obvious reasons and Spurs have just been accommodated due to finances and Champions League qualification.

Michael Adamson
140 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:46:58
Corruption at every level and every turn.
Barry Cowling
141 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:47:47
Just to chuck in my penny worth. I think the Premier League will likely tread carefully, due to the renewed possibility of a European Super League. Any harsh treatment of Man City will be detrimental, may be we will get offered a place?

If not, we could start a new league with Man City, Nottm Forest, Newcastle Utd… no doubt Leeds Utd and Luton Town will want in.

It's that old age case of when something gets too big it starts to break up, and the Premier League is far too big. I know, it's all a bit tongue-in-cheek… but, if you shake the can enough, the top comes off.

Kim Vivian
142 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:50:17
Polite email sent...
Tony Everan
143 Posted 26/10/2023 at 12:55:06
Barry 137, the Daily Mail are dragging it out a bit to fill the pages.

I don't know what I have more fear for, the possible sanctions, or the bit at the end when they talk about 777 about to takeover.

Probably the latter.

Tim Welsh
144 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:01:42
To those who have or who are intending to send the email that I suggested; of course I know we won't get a reply, but we have the democratic right to ask a question. Fill up their inbox and make ourselves a persistent nuisance, but always be polite. Give them some work to do, or at least a something to ponder.

Like the Suffragettes – Make More Noise... subtly.

Thank you for taking up my suggestion as well... my inbox is still awaiting their response.

Barry Hesketh
145 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:12:44
I nicked the following from a Grand Old Team post, relating to the statement that the Premier League made at the time it referred Everton. Any other stories about the outcome, possible sanctions etc should be ignored as it's as clear as day that no media outlets will be informed until the Premier League has published it on their own website.

The Premier League said: “In accordance with Premier League Rule W.82.1, the Premier League confirms that it has today referred an alleged breach of the League's Profitability and Sustainability Rules by Everton Football Club to a Commission under Premier League Rule W.3.4. The assessment period for which it is alleged that the Club is in breach is the period ending Season 2021/22.

“Commissions are independent of the Premier League and member clubs. The members of the Commission will be appointed by the independent Chair of the Premier League Judicial Panel, in accordance with Premier League Rules W.19, W.20 and W.26.

“The proceedings before the Commission will, in accordance with Premier League Rule W.82, be confidential and heard in private. Under Premier League Rule W.82.2, the Commission's final award will be published on the Premier League's website. The League will be making no further comment until that time.”

Mick Davies
146 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:17:16
Oh how football has changed, from a sport to a clique of wealthy individuals.

In 1963, Tony Kay was jailed for 4 months, fined £150 (a fortune then) and banned from football for life.

Newcastle's Sandro Tonali has been banned for paltry 10 months for the same crime!!! Despicable Premier League and its filthy lucre standards.

John Wilson
147 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:25:42
I know a little bit about law. This is only a Kings Counsel barrister, ie,can be a recorder judge (below the High Court).

Facts for FFP sanctions and penalties: Man City have kicked its case into the long grass. Evidence is supposedly the reason for adjournments. At issue is evidence has been presented by the Premier League and Man City probably are adjourning and doing limited disclosure of its evidence.

Everton: The remedy is a Tribunal appeal and then Judicial Review for stupid sanctions like Penalty for 12 point deduction. Judicial Review: abuse of power (ultra vires) and conflict of interest as Everton are working with the Premier League.

I also found a Cambridge University paper online, which builds on my legal knowledge.

Ray Roche
148 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:31:33
Mick, to be fair, it's hardly the same.

If memory serves, Kay, Swan and Lane only bet on one game. Toney and Tonali bet on many games. Even Sturridge was betting or passing information relating to matches to a relative.

Now, Tonali plays for a club that's owned by Saudi royalty……I'm surprised he got 10 months.

Brian Wilkinson
149 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:45:55
Barry, thanks for that.

I have added it to the email Forwarded, to the Premier League, I'm no Wordsworth but felt they should not be remaining silent, at least over the article.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you on a delicate matter and would like to know the answer.

Yesterday, the Telegraph ran an article on the Premier League demanding a 12-point deduction on Everton Football Club, the very day Everton lost their Chairman, the timing could not be more disrespectful.

If this has been leaked to the newspaper from someone within the Premier League, then why have you not investigated who leaked the details, when it could give an unfair influence to the board panel, deciding the outcome.

If you are confident that no leak has been made, then why are you remaining silent, and not making a comment to say no one has leaked any information, and letting the press print what they like, without yourselves speaking out, denying the press allegations would at least be a start, if someone however has leaked the information from within the Premier League, then that is a serious breech of hampering and influencing the Independent hearing.

As proud members of the Premier League, you need to look further into this, as it cannot be right, to publish an article, in the middle of a hearing.

You owe it to every single football fan, to speak out about the article, and where the press got their information from, if it is a made-up story, then you need to clear your name and speak out about the article, and strongly deny the information came from the Premier League and that you carried out the below accordingly

The Premier League said: “In accordance with Premier League Rule W.82.1, the Premier League confirms that it has today referred an alleged breach of the League's Profitability and Sustainability Rules by Everton Football Club to a Commission under Premier League Rule W.3.4. The assessment period for which it is alleged that the Club is in breach is the period ending Season 2021/22.

“Commissions are independent of the Premier League and member clubs. The members of the Commission will be appointed by the independent Chair of the Premier League Judicial Panel, in accordance with Premier League Rules W.19, W.20 and W.26.

“The proceedings before the Commission will, in accordance with Premier League Rule W.82, be confidential and heard in private. Under Premier League Rule W.82.2, the Commission's final award will be published on the Premier League's website. The League will be making no further comment until that time.

Yours sincerely

Stephen Vincent
150 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:47:54
Colin #125, I wish I had written that. Your post exactly reflects my own feelings.

The worst of it is, that this attitude regrettably leads to the situation that we find ourselves in, because we tried to keep up with organisations whose means and management capabilities are way beyond ours.

When you think that our benefactor, whose wealth is reputedly in excess of £2 billion, still makes us one of the poorest clubs in the Premier League, despite the fact that he has ploughed £800M into the club, tells you all you need to know about the modern game.

I long for a manager of a medium-ranking club to come out after a game and say that he has just resigned so that he can honestly and without fear of reprisals, call out the corrupt and incompetent officials who have just cost his club 3 points.

It won't be long before all football records prior to 1992 are deleted from the history books and fans are banned from singing songs that refer to past glories.

At least that way Haaland can be the best striker ever and Chelsea and Man City can have a better record than we do.

As I write, the press campaign continues unabated. I've just read some crap showing the Premier League table if we are deducted 3, 6, 9 and 12 points.

Rob Halligan
151 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:53:23
Email sent.
Rob Halligan
152 Posted 26/10/2023 at 13:58:25
Mick #146.

He's been banned by the Italian football federation, so I guess they have different rules to us.

I agree that it should be a FIFA decision, and not a particular country's decision, so for once, we can't blame the Premier League for this.

Dave Lynch
153 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:01:58
We are in this situation despite millions being poured into the club.

Money was made available but it was misspent and mismanaged, as was the clubs running on a daily basis.

Brighton have achieved much more than us on a lot less money in a shorter period of time, that comes from people with vision and a plan.

John Wilson
154 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:06:53
I am not a lawyer in terms of qualified, but what I do is like one. So I do family court stuff.

Let's say I want to get a case into court. The main thing on my mind is what is my opponent going to do if or when I make an application to court (litigation)?

Let's assume there is a particular type of narrative against a parent already existing, I would try to change that narrative by looking for evidence or trying to obtain evidence from the local authority insofar as doing it gradually.

I will tailor an email and, hoping to not alert the opponent that I have court in mind, anticipating that the judge will not likely do blanket disclosure.

Everton in contrast seem to me to not be attempting to change the "hate Everton" narrative. Why have they left it so late?? Maybe Everton has been on the ball hitherto, though right now it doesn't seem that way.

Mick O'Malley
155 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:08:27
I'm sorry but I'm not having this “they have got it in for us, they can't wait to punish us" nonsense.

There is is no conspiracy, we are a badly run football club who have broken the rules.

We have made a mess of things, lost too much money and must now take our medicine.

I'm sick of this victim's mentality we seem to have. If we get a 12-point deduction, we'll have to get on with it, if it means we are relegated, then we will have to deal with it.

Stephen Vincent
156 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:18:37
For anyone on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/alison-brittain-3284b6143.

Allison Brittain is the Chair of the Premier League.

Barry Hesketh
157 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:19:37
Hmmm! I think another club in this area is more likely to paint themselves as victims and they are recognised as being well-run and fairly successful, but not as dominant as they used to be, despite the aid they get from officials in football matches on numerous occasions.

I suppose, if you were one of the supporters of the clubs who wanted to sue Everton, because their clubs got relegated, you might think that the Premier League's referral is tokenism to protect one of their own?

Alan J Thompson
158 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:20:59
As John (#147) suggests, there is little point comparing our case to Man City's as in co-operating with the Premier League they have had access to all our paperwork and accounts while City have refused to co-operate or hand over any further documents.

They know all about us and are now looking for a clear and deliberate breach while I believe City's supposed breach is in sponsoring themselves which is in the guise of their other owned companies.

If anyone knows better then please correct me.

Robert Tressell
159 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:44:14
Mick #155, agreed.

If we get the punishment it will be for being monumentally thick. It is the culmination of pretending to have lots of money when we didn't really and spending what we had on premium cost cack.

I thought no club would be quite so stupid after what Ridsdale did to destroy Leeds – but we managed to take stupid to a new level.

Michael Kenrick
160 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:45:29
John @154,

Trying to assemble the pieces here:

"Why have they left it so late??"

What have they left so late? The entire timeline is dictated by the Premier League.

Or responding to the 'hate Everton' narrative? I don't think that's ever going to happen.

John Wilson
161 Posted 26/10/2023 at 14:52:29
Alan at 158: let me do an analogy. There are hardly any successful appeals in general and or very rare for appeals in the family court per se. When I read Court of Appeal judges refusing appeals, they're looking for reasons to reduce or refuse appeals than reasons to be successful: case merits/ prospects of success.

I also think the Commission has pressure to look for adverse sanction, for instance, threats for a 12-point deduction are not just circumstantial, as this is all probably from Premier League and intervenor parties PL teams counsel, barrister/ top counsels: Premier League teams use various incorporated companies and these are likely Intervenor and submissions likely to be made to influence the KC counsel judge.

Ref Mick at 155:

In terms of corruption, you would be surprised what goes on in secret. I can only speak of my knowledge, but let me just say, judges are swapped left, right and centre. There is a clear Everton prejudice as the media narratives are not just implicit but are explicit concerning that.

In the legal world, I have come to know, money is exchanged for services rendered, as judges should be appointed independent and in advance: Article 6 Right to a Fair Trial at principle Equality of Arms (See Council of Europe at Article 6 Guide). Council of Europe is the major human rights organisation behind 46 countries' human rights law.

Jack Convery
162 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:07:14
Email sent.

Time to let these people know the strength of feeling among us Evertonians.

Alan McGuffog
163 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:10:11
Most of the clubs in the Championship will be delighted. Full houses every time we come to town. Bit like when Man Utd spent a season in the old Division 2.
Derek Knox
164 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:11:20
I too have sent an email, which may or may not be read, as with others, so if enough similar subject emails are received, I find it will be difficult, but unlikely they will all be ignored without some questions being raised.

I won't hold my breath but hope to hear that several employees' and journalists' positions have become untenable.

John Wilson
165 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:22:45
Michael at 160:

Ref: Narrative.

The media concerning Everton and FFP situation seems to be that are our club have only recently submitted a defence to FFP sanction whereas City by analogy apparently focused on its submissions of evidence to tremendously delay its FFP sanctions matter.

With a caveat I obviously do not know Everton's strategy, the media have reported City's and Everton's approaches in that City successfully delayed proceedings against and Everton have submitted a defence and or will "robustly defend".

Everton in my view, I think, may have been set up by Premier League (vicariously by Premier League team Intervenors) to 'work with the Premier League' insofar as being too open with disclosure.

At the beginning of a case, each party as a rule has a duty to disclose evidence (Civil Procedure Rules, 1998 as amended). But of course, arguments can for limited disclosure limit all evidence and thus the case.

There are relevant situations such as privileged disclosure and in some case non-disclosure or propionate disclosure in case law. It just seems to me that Everton were slow on the uptake to control the narrative. By narrative, I mean the facts that are interpreted subjectively to party advantage.

Jerome Shields
166 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:27:47
John #154,

You are 100% right — it is all about the narrative. Everton are allowing the Premier League narrative to dominate by seeming to accept it. Once you accept the original narrative and do not provide an alternative narrative in your interests, the original narrative becomes the facts and the agenda of the proceedings.

I learned this in Proceedings 20 years ago. My daughter has just had a successful conclusion in her case. We constantly fought and did not accept the other partie's narrative. My experience that is the Legal profession are close to the facts that they appear not to know. It takes you to know yourself and brief your legal representatives accordingly, trying to get your narrative across. The press titbits being released are an attempt by parties to control the narrative.

Interestly 777 Partners constantly challenge the narrative. They never let any bad news to be left, without a countering reply. This was a hallmark of all the Presidential Campaigns of Clinton. Constantly challenge the existing narrative.

Even in my posts throughout this case, even before the Commission announcement, I have put forward an alternative narrative.

Julie Naybour
167 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:37:32
Great email, Barry.

I'll be adding to the emails myself. The more the better!

As you've done, Barry, we need to ask, if it was a leak what actions are being taken? And if it wasn't, why are they not clarifying their position?

This should not be happening whilst a tribunal taking place.

Let alone the disrespect of such an article to a club in mourning.

John Wilson
168 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:44:21
Jerome at 166.

Brilliant news that her lawyers learnt eventually to control the narrative. To do this it requires clever use of wording to persuade and accompanied by referring to evidence from the beginning.

The judge doesn't want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to facts as everything is subject to time and advocates meetings determine the outcome before going into the hearings.

The middle-class culture is that professionals that work together do not like being scrutinised, and for those reasons, final hearing for examination of evidence is usually soft or excuses made, which the judge accepts, legal aid cases where experts instead answer limited questions.

(NB: *is Aware the number of posts should be fair and proportionate, directed to TW admin).

Brian Ronson
170 Posted 26/10/2023 at 15:54:46
I have followed up the e-mail suggestion to the Premier League. I have asked for a public statement from them about the Telegraph article suggesting the source of the story must have emanated from within the Premiere League.

I copied the Guardian in suggesting the breach of confidentiality should be a story they need to investigate in its own right.

John Kavanagh
171 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:06:07
I have posted a number of times that Everton are the 'go to' club for implementing any new get-tough policies – not too big to take on (Sky 6) and not too small so as to elicit media/public sympathy.

Add to that the situation that we always simply accept decisions with barely any complaint. Unlike Man City, we simply handed over the books on demand. Complete pussies, perfect for demonstrating to the government that the Premier League can keep their own house in order without government intervention by way of imposing swingeing sanctions on an alleged transgressor.

I posted at the beginning of the season that the target had to be a minimum 52 points based on 40 to stay up, plus a possible 12-point deduction, and that we needed 15 points from the first 9 games. I was roundly criticised by some on here who said there's no such sanction as a 12-point deduction. Well, there seems to be one now and, sadly, we have fallen well short of the 9-game target.

Add to that one of our principal witnesses regarding the Premier League's assurances that we were okay is now dead. Who is representing us before this anonymous secret independent commission?

An appeal to the Premier League is pointless. Everyone involved is paid by them and he who calls the piper calls the tune. We should really piss them off by going to the Court for Arbitration for Sport, which is independent of the Premier League and its cronies. I said we should have done this when Lampard was fined £80k for telling the truth, by presenting a case showing the systematic bias in favour of certain clubs, both on and off the field.

We should also write to all MPs demanding action be taken by the government to ensure that the running of football in the UK is fair and balanced. That will worry them far more.

None of the above in any way absolves those responsible for the appalling running of our club. It's just that we need to show that we are being picked on for a single offence when far more obvious targets for financial transgressions exist.

ps: Anyone who thinks that making an example of us will result in any Sky 6 club being sanctioned under P&S rules is living on Fantasy Island. After destroying us to make their point, they will simply 'reinterpret' or change the rules to protect the so-called Big 6 and the 100+ charges against Man City will eventually disappear (see the European Super League breakaway) – eg, How many of their players have been sent off for simulation?

Kieran Kinsella
172 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:07:47
Can anyone confirm if the hearing is underway and if so how long it might last?

If as reported it's about treatment of tax, surely that would be pretty quickly resolved. They saw what we reported so how long does it take to explain it? 10 minutes? An hour if you produce a few examples of precedent?

Surely this should be a pretty quick and easy case. So when do we hear the outcome?

Stephen Vincent
173 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:10:53
John #165,

That is a great summary if we were talking about a level playing field, which we are not. Everton, as I understand it, have been charged with one breach covering one accounting period. All of Everton's interests are subject to UK corporate law, whether this be the Group or the wholly owned subsidiaries making up that Group.

Manchester City's breaches cover six years and involve more complex matters such as self-sponsorship, over-valuing sponsorship deals and off-book payments.

The other confusing factor is that, by and large, the accounts filed by Manchester City Ltd contain an apportioned revenue from the City Football Group, which is a holding company registered in the UAE and is owned by three organisations; 78% is owned by Abu Dhabi United Group, 18% by the American firm Silver Lake, and 4% by Chinese firms China Media Capital and CITIC Capital.

Abu Dhabi United Group is a Private Equity Company wholly owned by Sheikh Mansour. For the last few years City Football Group has been managed by Newton Investment and Development LLC, another company wholly owned by Sheikh Mansour.

City Group comprises 13 football clubs around the world and 4 women's teams, the likelihood of the Premier League ever being able to find their way through the morass is virtually non-existent and since the accounts for Manchester City Ltd have been accepted by Companies House, it will be many years yet before this matter is resolved. Charges have been brought now to avoid several years 'dropping out' from possible investigation.

Sean Mitchell
174 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:30:24
Is the Championship as corrupt, biassed, and rigged as the Premier League?

I'd rather be in the Football League if so, and if the club are found guilty.

The Premier League is nothing short of a disgrace and no doubt we'll get docked points.

If the Premier League don't impose it, the refs will do their bit to see us down.

Man City will backhand millions and get away with it.

Tony Waring
175 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:30:57
Email just sent.

I might have to wait a long time for an answer!

Jay Harris
176 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:31:12
Feedback from the club is they are increasingly confident of beating any charges and it is suggested that the matter is related to interest on the stadium funding and how that was treated in the accounts.

Now if the auditors approved it, then the treatment must be legit?

My understanding is that any stadium costs can be capitalized and therefore are not a profit and loss item so hopefully this is the case and we will be cleared.

Brian Williams
177 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:39:41
But it's widely reported that it regards the huge losses over and above the allowed losses over a 3-year period.

Losses, I know, that have been put down to Covid but which "appear" to be way in excess of what could reasonably be accounted for.

Jerome Shields
178 Posted 26/10/2023 at 16:54:53
John #168,

Grammar and words are her thing and I never realised how important they were until I seen her phrase and answer e-mails. She was able to capitalise on poor English and grammer at every opportunity.

My father, who worked in a legal office for two years after he left school, was brilliant at English as well. I did not inherit the trait, as can be seen in my posts.

Barry Rathbone
179 Posted 26/10/2023 at 17:14:44
If a points penalty sees us relegated, we will embrace victimhood as per the crew across the park. "Unfairness" will have the new ground buzzing as the crusade to redress injustice kicks in and see the club buoyed by re-invention.

If we went down through poor form in isolation, the ignominy might be too much for many. I suspect some will simply wash their hands of what has become a disaster club with ongoing decline and empty seats a real prospect for the new gaffe.

If we must drop, this is the way to do it.


Barry Hesketh
180 Posted 26/10/2023 at 17:35:22
Tut! Tut! Jerome @ 179!

Your daughter will be most disappointed that you spelt the word 'grammar' incorrectly. :)

Mike Gaynes
181 Posted 26/10/2023 at 17:51:40
Barry H... "spelt"?

In your country... not in mine! ;-))

Brian Wilkinson
182 Posted 26/10/2023 at 17:54:29
This is one of the best fans backing for a long time.

Any disagreements, any different point of views have been put to one side and the fans are all as one.

Too many times now, our football club has been kicked, cheated, laughed upon, been used as an example.

Enough is enough, we need to all stick together on this one, and not take any more dirt dished out.

The Premier League and media have poked the bear once too often, it's time for us all to unite, fight back, and say we are not standing for it anymore.

Our emails may come to nothing, but to release something, while the independent commission is taking place is not on.

We were all warned not to post anything about the Hillsborough trial a few years back, on any social platforms, as it could hamper or sway the case.

There is no difference here, and whoever leaked the information should be accounted for.

Rant over.

Tim Welsh
183 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:03:10
Brian 183... in the words of Dixie Dean

Here! Here!

Michael Kenrick
184 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:03:27
John @165,

I'm not sure Everton have had much opportunity to control the narrative beyond preparing and presumably presenting their defence as and when required before the presumably ongoing independent commission (although it might now have actually finished its work) – all in private behind closed doors.

Given the private and confidential nature of the entire process, that suits the internal machinations of the club, which would say absolutely nothing until the Premier League publishes the commission's findings on their website.

While everyone is keen to indulge in 'whataboutery' over Man City, Everton's relatively simple single-issue case is being dealt with in accordance with the Premier League timetable, as announced – and completely controlled – by them.

What's annoying is that the mischievous Telegraph article could have been written without any Premier League source. In essence, it is pure speculation. Yet it's been picked up, hook, line and sinker, by every news outlet in the country and beyond, with everyone believing it has come from the Premier League. Such is the power of a couple of hacks.

Barry Hesketh
185 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:06:42
Mike @182

‘Was it Wilde or Shaw?' The answer appears to be: both. In The Canterville Ghost (1887), Wilde wrote: ‘We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language'. However, the 1951 Treasury of Humorous Quotations (Esar & Bentley) quotes Shaw as saying: ‘England and America are two countries separated by the same language', but without giving a source. The quote had earlier been attributed to Shaw in Reader's Digest (November 1942).

Tony Everan
186 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:17:06
A diversion to lift the spirits, Seamus taking part in a training session today at Goodison.


Terry McLavey
187 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:25:26
Don't we have to have 12 points before they can deduct them, good luck with that FA! ;)
Brendan McLaughlin
188 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:31:27
Kieran #172

Fair point.

It would appear that in this instance "no news is bad news". If Everton have done nothing wrong one would assume that a Premier League statement exonerating the club will appear fairly quickly.

If this drags on for a few days I would worry we have been found to have broken the rules and the Independent Commission need a few more days to determine if it was a genuine error or an actual attempt to mislead. Obviously this will impact any likely punishment.

Michael Kenrick
189 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:32:05

1) No.

2) It's the Premier League, not the FA.

Brendan McLaughlin
190 Posted 26/10/2023 at 18:52:22
Jay #177,

The auditors are certainly required to sign off the publicly available accounts.

The Profitability & Sustainability figure, however, is a further calculation which takes the overall profit/loss figure and adjusts it for disallowable expense – covid items, women's and youth football etc.

I'm not sure if this calculation is actually audited. I suspect as it's not part of the statutory accounts, it may not be.

Graham Fylde
192 Posted 26/10/2023 at 19:09:17
Kieran & Brendan,

'In the case of a determination at a hearing the Commission's decision shall be announced as soon as practicable thereafter and if possible at the end of the hearing' – given it's a single charge we shouldn't be waiting long.

In terms of outcomes if found guilty, if you put Portsmouth going into administration at one end of a scale (9 points) with innocent at the other end, where would this offence rank? In those terms -12 wouldn't just be harsh, it'd be completely inappropriate.

John Wilson
193 Posted 26/10/2023 at 19:22:31
Stephen at 173:

Ref per quoted, there are also interim remedies available in law generally, and interim remedy could have been interim sanctioning against Man City and employing penalties such as penalty points and or excessive fines."

The fact that the Premier League have evidence to bring charges against City, and I thought it was longer than 6 years, there should be evidence for interim sanctions. There is either evidence for sanctions or not, whether there is more evidence to go through should not alter interim remedies.

It is for probably avoiding statutory barring that proceedings are brought against City. It just seems to me City have challenged using legal technicalities, as a possible distraction.

It does seem unfair if City is given plenty of latitude but Everton are dragged over the coals for something relatively trivial, relative to City's controversial facts. Everton, I think, should raise a precedent as it impedes the public law principles, implied or explicit bias and or unfair treatment.

Treaty of Functioning of the European Union's legal principle is proportionality and should apply to Everton. Brexit is not relevant as EU law is still applicable in several areas, notwithstanding UK Competition law is already developed from European Union case law.

"Manchester City's breaches cover six years and involve more complex matters such as self-sponsorship, over-valuing sponsorship deals and off-book payments.

The other confusing factor is that, by and large, the accounts filed by Manchester City Ltd contain an apportioned revenue from the City Football Group, which is a holding company registered in the UAE and is owned by three organisations; 78% is owned by Abu Dhabi United Group, 18% by the American firm Silver Lake, and 4% by Chinese firms China Media Capital and CITIC Capital.

Abu Dhabi United Group is a Private Equity Company wholly owned by Sheikh Mansour. For the last few years City Football Group has been managed by Newton Investment and Development LLC, another company wholly owned by Sheikh Mansour.

City Group comprises 13 football clubs around the world and 4 women's teams, the likelihood of the Premier League ever being able to find their way through the morass is virtually non-existent and since the accounts for Manchester City Ltd have been accepted by Companies House, it will be many years yet before this matter is resolved. Charges have been brought now to avoid several years 'dropping out' from possible investigation."

Billy Bradshaw
194 Posted 26/10/2023 at 21:01:58
Email sent.
Paul Birmingham
195 Posted 26/10/2023 at 21:09:50
“Branded”, Everton must fight for its name. One of my favourite series as a kid.

Fact or fiction, the vultures of the media's long stalking and slandering of Everton has gone too far.

There's no proven facts yet but the Premier League must take a long hard look at themselves, and also the DCMS, must look into the self-righteous, stainless bodies who run English football.

The game's becoming a nonsense and the good value of football is being compromised by the Premier League, PGMOL, the media, the dictat on ridiculous kick-off times for games, no consideration for supporters travelling, and the commercials of attendance at a game.

Football is going down the pan but Everton, our Everton, must stand and fight its corner.


Ben King
196 Posted 26/10/2023 at 21:31:15
Email sent
Les Callan
197 Posted 26/10/2023 at 21:31:54
Two emails sent.
Brendan McLaughlin
198 Posted 26/10/2023 at 21:43:17
No emails sent.

It's the Telegraph FFS!

Geoff Lambert
199 Posted 26/10/2023 at 22:08:51
Maybe send a few emails to The Guardian as well. I think they tend to disagree on most things.Then again they don't like us either.
Billy Roberts
200 Posted 26/10/2023 at 22:12:45
Mick @ 155,

Thank god for the likes of you. The types who will readily pay the fine – you are keeping all these car park, bailiff type institution going with your unquestionable approach happy

That's good, it keeps these organisations off the arses off the ones who say nah... I don't think so??

Tony Mace
201 Posted 26/10/2023 at 23:05:50
The Feckin Arseholes ensured we got 0 points at Anfield. 3 points deduction already. Only 9 more to go.

Slap on the wrist in comparison for the clubs who tried to start a Super League.

Unbelievable double standards from the faceless shitbags at the FA.

Jerome Shields
202 Posted 26/10/2023 at 23:12:32
Barry #181

Yes she would be. Luckily this time I can argue that it is the American spelling as Mike pointed out. Though I didn't know.

Jerome Shields
203 Posted 26/10/2023 at 23:25:00
Michael #185,

I hope your interpretation is right, since it may pre-empt the decision and influence it positively.

I also think that the Premier League is getting a taster of the possible reaction if the punishment appears to be disproportionate, when compared with them appearing to drag their heels. even if the reason is City working the system.

Brendan McLaughlin
204 Posted 26/10/2023 at 00:03:55
Trending on Twitter...

Alison Brittain resigns due to several polite emails.

[I'm obviously joking!]

Oliver Molloy
205 Posted 26/10/2023 at 00:17:40
From the information in the public domain, I really don't see how our legal team can defend the indefensible.

Moshiri has surely known what's coming and is desperate to sell in order to claw back as much as possible.

I read the other day that Usmanov has cut Moshiri out of all his business interests and demanded he gets his money back and the only way that may happen is if the club is sold.

Someone said to me that part of our defense would be including the naming rights and sponsorship money being refunded to Usmanov, but that was only £30 million, how the fuck can the rest of the deficit be explained?

I think it is very likely we will get a points deduction and transfer ban to match. People saying relegation might just be what we need in order to regroup and sort us out, not for me – I want to stay in the Premier League and make them fucking sick.

It is all very disheartening with what has happened to us.

Kieran Kinsella
206 Posted 27/10/2023 at 01:28:52

You're conflating two different things. Obviously Everton's Covid related losses are laughable. But seemingly that's not what we are in trouble for. We are under the microscope for treatment of taxation related to the stadium.

It's like Al Capone. Everyone knows he was a gangster but the charge he faced was tax evasion. The fact we made a mockery of P&S is irrelevant as somehow no one charged us for that.

Lester Yip
207 Posted 27/10/2023 at 08:44:42
I don't think we'll end up with points deduction. What's the point? They scared the shit out of us and then a big fine to milk money from us.
Tony Everan
208 Posted 27/10/2023 at 09:44:20
So Jim White of Sky asks Simon Jordan;

“If you don't throw the book at them, then what kind of message is going to be sent out?”

We don't even know the charge, he hasn't seen the evidence or heard the arguments, the independent commission hasn't adjudicated. How is he coming to that point of view?

Then Simon Jordan is saying the Premier League's presentation didn't go too well last week, but has since improved.

Who is leaking information to him and why? Any information broadcast will influence the mass media's coverage, like the Telegraph article did. This could well have an influence directly or subliminally on the persons sitting on the independent commission. It could alter their way of thinking.

These leaks have to stop or the hearing will become tainted and worthless in the eyes of many. Also possibly open up legal action against any findings.

Terry McLavey
209 Posted 27/10/2023 at 09:45:11
Michael, Thanks, l stand corrected.

At least it's an unbiased organisation. ;)

Barry Hesketh
210 Posted 27/10/2023 at 10:00:49
Tony @209,

I'm not concerned about the independent commission being influenced by the media because I'm sure that they will draw their own conclusions on the merits of the case. That might be naive of me, but we have to have some trust that people know their responsibilities and are capable of evaluating the evidence without being influenced by outside pressure.

What the Telegraph article has shown is that any old rubbish can appear in a report, tweet or blog and it is then amplified by the rest of the media, without anybody seemingly stopping to check the validity of the information, to such an extent that TalkSport et al can discuss it live on air, adding nothing factual or new to the original story.

This media frenzy then leads to fans of other clubs believing that the Premier League has made a decision, that Everton are guilty as charged, and if they then at some later date, hear that the decision is different to the rumour started by the Telegraph, they will be up in arms screaming 'injustice' and 'fix'.

This 'outrage' will thereby generate even more column inches and interminable views and arguments from the 'shock jocks'.

Pop will eat itself, but the media will devour everything in its path, unless it starts to apply some journalistic integrity and basic checking of the stories based on phantom sources that it publishes.

Andrew Ellams
211 Posted 27/10/2023 at 10:02:04
I counter Jim White's comments with: If they do throw the book at us, what message does it send?

With Manchester City, Chelsea and Nottingham Forest all awaiting the outcome of charges or investigations, surely a 12-point deduction for Everton opens a massive Pandora's Box.

Paul Cherrington
212 Posted 27/10/2023 at 10:12:40
If this does actually happen, it would be a disgrace and show how far modern-day football has fallen. It would also show clearly that the powers that be are out to get us and can't wait to get us out of the Premier League – one way or another.

They tried it with a series of suspect VAR decisions over the last few years and when that hasn't worked, they're jumping all over us about things they don't even look twice at for other clubs.

This kind of punishment would be far too much, even if what we are being accused of is true. You have to remember that it is one single rule we have fallen foul of as I understand and we are facing just one charge to answer.

There is no way a massive points deduction is warranted for that – but you can just tell the people in charge of the Premier League have been waiting for even the slightest chance to nobble us.

It just stinks to high heaven – I can't believe we are the only club currently or in the last few years who have fallen foul of what we are being accused of. But as usual, they ignore it with everyone else and throw the book at us when they get chance.

Do you think Man City will get any kind of similar sanction for their hundreds of rule breaches? Of course not - it will just be a slap on the wrist, a fine and a 'don't do it again'.

It's like when they tried to stamp out diving and it was only an Everton player in Niasse who ever got pulled up for it.

If I was in charge of the club, I would take legal action back against the Premier League and sue them for points/revenue lost due to the long list of obvioulsy wrong refeering and VAR decisions which have gone against us in the last few seasons. See how they like those eggs.

Modern football is a joke and I suspect corrupt as anything. You only have to look at the ridiculous refeering and VAR decisions every week to see that. They can't geniuinely be getting so many decisions so wrong every week in most games. Especially when they usually favour the 'bigger' sides and get the Premier League the results they obviously want.

Steve Brown
213 Posted 27/10/2023 at 10:45:45
The bigger picture here is the Premier League trying to demonstrate it can self-regulate before the Government legislates for an independent football regulator.

Preparing the case for Man City's 115 charges will prove a longer process, therefore Everton present an easy, timely and symbolic example that the Premier League can advance. It also helps that the club is so passive in its response to all events on and off the field compared to the Red Shite, for example.

The Premier League are demanding a 12-point penalty to demonstrate their robustness but, if the one charge does relate to treatment of taxation on stadium costs, then they may not succeed.

Not sure that phases them too much. They will have made their point that an independent regulator is not needed and shown their determination. They can then cite the independent commission as the reason they were thwarted.

Dave Abrahams
214 Posted 27/10/2023 at 11:02:20
Steve (214),

Who said the Premier League are demanding a 12-point penalty against Everton?

Jerome Shields
215 Posted 27/10/2023 at 11:04:27
It could be that the Premier League have put forward this recommendation, if correct, so to absolve themselves from a lighter decision from the independent commission. There could be a lot of pressure from competing clubs.

I still can't see the fact that Everton worked alongside the Premier League monitoring for 2 years and seemed to be taking decisions throughout to try and remedy the situation, not counting towards any decision.

Anyway, someone is playing silly buggers at the moment.

Jim Wilson
216 Posted 27/10/2023 at 11:55:57
Paul @ 213,

I agree with everything you say and it is time for the club to look at taking legal action. We have committed one very stupid mistake and have been under restriction now for 3 seasons which has seen us nearly relegated.

Other clubs deliberately tried to form a new competition behind the Premier League's back. A far bigger crime without any doubt.

Like what's been said earlier, we need to change the narrative. Imagine if this was Liverpool, their response would be to be all over it. Totally indignant, on the attack and threatening to take all sorts of action.

Brendan McLaughlin
217 Posted 27/10/2023 at 11:56:34
Jerome #216,

My hunch is that the Premier League's oversight of Everton was relatively low-key. If, as some people seem to believe, the Premier League were effectively running Everton's finances for two years there would not be, could not be this charge.

The Premier League may have been receiving details of Everton's ongoing finances for the period but they weren't drilling down into it.

Steve Brown
218 Posted 27/10/2023 at 12:03:17
Dave, they might not be.

But leak looked pretty well co-ordinated to me.

Alan J Thompson
219 Posted 27/10/2023 at 12:38:32
As has been seen on here lawyers can phrase things in a manner that is almost indecipherable and would need a judge so to do.

Unfortunately, unless Everton take it further should the independent commission find against them and the penalty is found harsh and unacceptable, then there will be nobody to make sense of any of it. Does this sound similar to where the other club in this conversation has taken matters?

Unfortunately for us, we don't have owners used to getting their own way or perhaps even know who that might be in the near future if this whole thing deters any interested parties.

Daniel A Johnson
220 Posted 27/10/2023 at 12:58:29
The Premier League smell blood.

Little ole plucky Everton will be a nice sacrificial lamb as a warning to anyone who dares to dream big to keep in line.

As for the Premier League poster boys, Man City and Haaland, Chelsea, Man Utd and the rest of the FFP flaunters: Well, I think they are all more concerned about their player stats on the new game of FIFA Football than any charges from the Premier League.

The Premier League is a billion-pound business and they won't go for the teams that help sell that product. It makes good business sense for the Premier League to allow a team to assume dominance over world football like Man City have as it improves and enhances the overall Premier League product. The best team in world football plays in the English Premier League.

All fans know that a VAR check is simply reference to a safety net for a Top 6 badge check.

We will pathetically and quietly take our punishment as that is the Everton way.

Phil Greenough
221 Posted 27/10/2023 at 13:21:34
I can't understand why anybody is giving these falsehoods any credence. Where did the Telegraph get its information from? It's all speculation.

However, the damage it is doing is not. The wailing and handwringing over allegations that aren't proven is unbelievable.

Evertonians are buying into gutter press allegations that aren't worth a carrot and perpetuating the narrative they are spewing out.

I wish everyone would calm down and wait for the independent commission to come to their own conclusions and not continue to fan the flames of deceitful allegations.

Julie Naybour
222 Posted 27/10/2023 at 13:30:14

My worry is Everton may not have declared everything they should have done, either on purpose or unwittingly.

I suspect this, though far more nuanced, will be the basis on which they at one stage seemed to be supporting our financial submissions, and now suddenly they are not.

Kim Vivian
223 Posted 27/10/2023 at 13:32:32
Well said, Phil Greenough.

Some of the nonsense being spouted around the place makes us look like a fanbase of paranoiacs.

Brendan McLaughlin
224 Posted 27/10/2023 at 13:32:38
Spot on, Phil #222.

Indeed if the Telegraph allegation was accurate, the big story here would be that the Premier League is corrupting what is supposed to be an independent process.

No news outlet, however, is raising this aspect as an issue because they know the Telegraph article is clickbait lazy journalism at its worst.

And that's also why the Premier League aren't commenting.

Christine Foster
225 Posted 27/10/2023 at 13:48:23
The problem is, Phil, there are leaks and it's almost certainly from the Premier League.

The Simon Jordan - Jim White conversation referred to how well things had gone from the first week to the second for the Premier League. By default, he is getting updates on what's being said but, even more importantly was the fact that he said he was told it wasn't going well for the Premier League initially but was better this week.

That implies the Premier League are prosecuting a case against Everton and not just laying out the reasons for concern to allow an independent process to arrive at a balanced conclusion.

Doing so allows the Premier League to look as though they are going for us and looking big whilst losing nothing. So much for a confidential process.

If they lose, they can blame the commission, we tried but…

If they win, but it's less of a sanction, they can blame the commission for the details of the judgement…

Everton should have publicly condemned the leaks immediately and still should. Otherwise, it would appear to all and sundry they are guilty and throwing themselves onto the mercy of the commission…

Rob Halligan
226 Posted 27/10/2023 at 14:10:16
No matter how many charges Man City face, be it 1, 101, 115, or whatever, the Premier League only need to find them guilty of just one to dish out any / the same punishment that we could face.

If they are waiting for every single charge to be investigated, then it will take forever. So as I say, just look at the most serious one, find them guilty, and dish out the punishment.

Dale Self
227 Posted 27/10/2023 at 14:37:45
I know fuck all but I like Steve Brown's and Jerome Shields's angle. The Premier League does not want an independent commission assuming a permanent role and this process shows they have lacked the will to enforce what is on the books.

The leak services that concern by signalling a strong desire for punishment of a club with less stature than Man City. They probably don't realize this highlights the critical problem, going after the big money clubs. It is likely an open secret among the grey suits of the commission and corridors of power.

Ride it out. As long as the Premier League doesn't come in to confirm it may reflect poorly on their capability to regulate. This could ultimately play in our favor. Wait for more information and load up on liquor just in case.

Barry Hesketh
228 Posted 27/10/2023 at 14:46:17
Christine @226

I wish I'd listened to the back and forth between Jordan and White, but from the transcript that I've seen, I wouldn't bet on any such leak taking place as Jordan said: 'I understand the Premier League presented last week and they weren't particularly impressive in the first instance. They've [since] gotten a little bit better in their presentation.'

'So the Premier League present their case and advance their arguments, and Everton will of course rebut the position and establish theirs, and from this will come some degree of consequence.'

We don't know where Jordan gained this information, was it via a tea-lady? A cleaner? A security guard? Any other person not at all involved in the hearing? Or was it merely a figment of his furtive imagination.

Jordan may well be mates with somebody within the hearing, in which case, the Premier League should open an investigation into who revealed anything about the hearing as they have stated that 'The proceedings before the Commission will, in accordance with Premier League Rule W.82, be confidential and heard in private.'

I can see the whole thing hanging over Everton until the end of this season, as this committee is replaced, due to a leak, if such a leak has actually taken place.

Daniel A Johnson
229 Posted 27/10/2023 at 14:50:08
Kim Vivian (224)

What the hell!

Some of the nonsense being spouted around the place makes us look like a fanbase of paranoiacs.

A. We are under investigation for financial irregularities.

B. The hearing is underway/has concluded.

C. Rumours of a potential 12-point penalty are rife.

Given the above, we are entitled to come on here to discuss this and all the potential ramifications and the overall farcical injustice of it all given that other clubs have and are still to this very day getting away with much much worse.

Paranoia? My fucking arse – the very future of this club hangs on the findings of this investigation.

Tony Everan
230 Posted 27/10/2023 at 14:55:23
“Everton Football Club's hearing with an Independent Commission has now ended. The Toffees now wait to find out the verdict over the coming weeks.”
Kieran Kinsella
231 Posted 27/10/2023 at 14:57:54

Where did you see that?

Tony Everan
232 Posted 27/10/2023 at 15:02:04
Bobble posted it on Twitter.
Brian Harrison
233 Posted 27/10/2023 at 15:07:01
I listened to Simon Jordan the other day and he said he thought Everton would be fined and have a points deduction deferred. He didn't elaborate as to how or what would trigger the points deduction to be enforced.

He was a friend of Kenwright's and challenged him why he had let Moshiri do the things he did. Kenwright said "You try telling a billionaire what to do."

He also quoted Kenwright telling Moshiri who should replace Ancelotti, but was called to a meeting with Moshiri and sitting there was Benitez who had been offered the job.

Barry Hesketh
234 Posted 27/10/2023 at 15:07:35
Given that Bobble has stated that the hearing has concluded, I imagine that's why Simon Jordan and Jim White were talking about the performance of the Premier League in the hearing on their show.

If the hearing has concluded, is the delay in announcing a decision due to both sides, ie, Everton and the Premier League, considering the outcome and whether or not to trigger the appeals process?

Brian @234,

Perhaps Moshiri should approach Simon Jordan to fill the vacant chairman's post as the broadcaster seems to know far more than most about the internal machinations of Everton Football Club.

Christy Ring
235 Posted 27/10/2023 at 15:09:14
The whole thing it stinks of corruption; we're all equal but some are more equal than others – like Animal Farm.
Kieran Kinsella
236 Posted 27/10/2023 at 15:34:07
Apparently the hearing was broadened and Pathe were asked to provide film footage from the 1927-28 season to do a VAR review on some of Dixie's goals. There's also questions being asked about Kevin Brock's backpass.
Paul Hewitt
237 Posted 27/10/2023 at 16:01:35
Barry @235.

Simon Jordan said a few weeks back he would become chairman of Everton if asked. I think he'd do a good job.

Barry Hesketh
238 Posted 27/10/2023 at 16:07:20
Kieran @237

I also heard that the other lot are claiming back rent from 1892 onwards, as the contract with their original owner, wasn't legally nullified. Plus Old Ma Noblett's descendants have asked the tax authorities to investigate non-payment for hundreds of thousands of Toffees, covering a period of 50 years.

I just saw a betting organisation have put up a tweet "Finally FFP Head office taking some strong action"

FFP parody

Jack Convery
239 Posted 27/10/2023 at 16:13:59
Anyone had a reply to their email yet? I haven't.
Pete Neilson
240 Posted 27/10/2023 at 16:48:41
Simon Jordan led Palace into administration. They've since recovered very well without him.

I don't think he's the answer to any of our problems.

Jay Harris
241 Posted 27/10/2023 at 17:14:28
No Jack, Not even an acknowledgement of receipt.

Simon Jordan is not the answer but, to be fair, he has always sided with Everton.

Tim Welsh
242 Posted 27/10/2023 at 17:30:57
Jack @ 240

No reply for me either. This is exactly what I expected.

I am not so naïve that I would think that they would jump to answer, the 'info' email is probably under the supervision of someone on work experience.

The idea of sending emails is that ultimately we can point to the total lack of cooperation and respect for the fans who are being merely inquisitive. We all know what the Premier League are like, but we need to gather material evidence to demonstrate it.

I see this as just the first step.

I don't contribute much or very often to these forums, but I do read them and what I see is a collective of intelligence, knowledge, articulacy and wit. If that is harnessed and given direction, it would tie the Premier League in knots.

In the last 24 hours, someone wrote that for Evertonians 'enough is enough'; for me, this is it. We have been used as scapegoats, subjected to abysmal officiating, made guinea pigs for new rules and patronised by the wider media... I have more self respect than to take it anymore.

A more noble and passionate set of supporters do not exist anywhere else on Earth. Moreover, they have a heritage of knowing the game and how it is played that is not extant at any any other club. They know the highs of triumph, but also the nadir of despair and the unbridled joy of preserving one's status ( something the the Smug 6, will never have to endure...but equally, will never enjoy). The celebrations and support shown during successive relegation battles is unparalleled elsewhere.

For me supporters of that calibre should never be treated as badly as they have been either by the poor stewardship of our board, or by the pencil-necked cowards who hide behind any kind of chicanery that purports to run the game.


Dave Abrahams
243 Posted 27/10/2023 at 17:43:51
Kieran (237),

Dixie's goal in the 1933 FA Cup Final has always looked a bit dodgy to me, being honest!

Geoff Lambert
244 Posted 27/10/2023 at 18:06:51
Barry #239,

Very funny, but many a true thing said in jest.

Rob Halligan
245 Posted 27/10/2023 at 18:11:47
Dave # 244…

What about Andy Gray's goal in the '84 FA Cup Final? Did Steve Sherwood have two hands on the ball when Andy Gray headed it in?

No doubt there will be a retrospective decision about that and we will be stripped of the FA Cup, which in turn means we will also lose the Charity Shield of the 84-85 season, and also the Cup-Winners Cup because we shouldn't have been in it!!!

Jeff Armstrong
246 Posted 27/10/2023 at 18:21:18
They’re also looking into Mike Trebilcock’s unusual dodgy surname in ‘66, and the fact it delayed names on shirts for forty years, possible fine for loss of profit from shirt sales.

Sheffield Wednesday to be awarded retrospective cup win.

Danny O’Neill
247 Posted 27/10/2023 at 18:28:44
Rescind England's only World Cup win.

I am only immediately focussed on what is important. We have a match against West Ham that I am attending in less than 48 hours.

I will be thinking about that more than anything else or media speculation.

David Cooper
248 Posted 27/10/2023 at 19:04:44
We keep hearing “the Premier League this and that etc” but, apart from the obvious, who are these people who are sitting in judgement as the independent commission appointed by the Premier League?

Well, this is what I found: each team has one vote or share in decision-making, with ⅔ vote to change the rules. This may not apply to our case except you might think to take such a momentous step to deduct points from one of their members would require a full members meeting?

Then we step down to the Executive Board with a load of impressive names who seem to have no link to football. The only name I recognized was Richard Masters. Not sure what power this group holds but hopefully they are intelligent people who would not dare to make such a far-reaching decision as a points deduction.

Then are all the other hangers-on including the FA, UEFA, FIFA and Uncle Tom cobble and all. Again, I have no idea what these stakeholders contribute. According to their website, there are over 250 paid workers. So a pretty large unwieldy body of people.

So I am still no further informed of when the media talk of the Premier League recommending a 12-point deduction according to the three journos at the Telegraph, who they are talking about?

Dale Self
249 Posted 27/10/2023 at 19:14:32
This was somewhat played down in the Yank coverage on USA channel. Specific emphasis given at the end to the point that the independent commission decides – not the Premier League.

No Ornstein, only a reference to the Telegraph story with considerably more time and prose put into the coverage of Bill's passing.

The Telegraph story still looks like Premier League positioning for now.

Paul Tran
250 Posted 27/10/2023 at 19:38:52
Dale, it's quite normal for the 'prosecution' to declare they're looking for the maximum penalty. Doesn't surprise me at all. And what they leak to the press could just be their way of showing how 'robust' they are.

Yes, positioning is the word.

Dave Abrahams
251 Posted 27/10/2023 at 19:40:23
Jeff (247),

Yes, what a cock-up that name was, embarrassing the poor commentators not to mention Eddie Cavanagh encroaching on the hallowed Wembley turf and making a fool of one bizzie after another.

Jay Evans
252 Posted 27/10/2023 at 19:52:39
Email sent.

There will be no problem at all if we have recruited Colleen’s lawyers.

Dale Self
253 Posted 27/10/2023 at 19:53:50
I would take an Everton shirt with Trebilcock on the back.
Paul Birmingham
254 Posted 27/10/2023 at 20:00:50
So far, it's all speculation, there's no facts, and hopefully Everton's lawyers will keep their powder dry, and then take the Premier League on and show that the governance of the Premier League is prejudiced and corrupt.

I hope the tap is exposed and also brought to the dock.

Beat West Ham, and UTFTs!

Dave Abrahams
255 Posted 27/10/2023 at 20:04:58
Would it be possible to use the solicitors, all great Everton fans, from KEIC who got the Kirkby stadium kicked into touch?
Jeff Armstrong
256 Posted 27/10/2023 at 20:05:27
Dave 251, the commentators got round it by pronouncing it Trebilco’

BBC must’ve been in a right state when Catterick pulled that one out a couple of hours before kick off,

Wolstenholme would’ve been putting more plums in his mouth than he’d ever been used too ..ever.😂😂

Dale #253, great shout on that name on the back of a shirt, never ever seen that one, and we all should’ve by now.

I’ll deffo get that one next time we’re at Wembley for a cup final.

Paul Birmingham
257 Posted 27/10/2023 at 20:29:10
Dave, let's hope so.

Whoever they are who Everton may hire for their defence, I hope they rinse them dry, even if the case is adjourned for lack of facts etc, but they then get them for malicious slander and the rest.

Brendan McLaughlin
258 Posted 27/10/2023 at 22:43:23
Julie #222,

I think you are buying too much into the narrative about the Premier League overseeing Everton's financials... it was almost certainly a light touch.

But you are right... if Everton simply got the complicated P&S regulations wrong we might get off lightly. If we've tried to take the piss... different ending entirely.

Apologies for taking so long to come back to you.

Brendan McLaughlin
259 Posted 27/10/2023 at 22:55:14
Christine #225,

I always thought that the Premier League who initially charged Everton would of course lead the prosecution. They made the charge... of course they should prosecute it. If not them, who?

Neil Carter
260 Posted 28/10/2023 at 08:44:41
Punishment decided before a decision made? Smells of using us as an example.

Meanwhile, the City appeal rolls on and is disappeared once the right level of backhanders are paid.

I love the even competitive nature of the Premier League —needs renaming to the Rich Boys Auction with trophies available to the highest bidder.

Neil Carter
261 Posted 28/10/2023 at 08:52:30
Telegraph article just another example of the fashionable journalism of Everton bashing.

Poor taste timing this week as well.

At least it's found use as chip paper today or even more if you have an outside bog in the backyard.

Barry Hesketh
262 Posted 28/10/2023 at 09:17:30
I think Joe Thomas has it about right in his latest article published in the Echo. Many, if not most of us, accept that if Everton have transgressed then we and the club have to accept the punishment meted out, however unpalatable it might prove to be. However, the punishment has to be appropriate.

Unfortunately, with so much scrutiny on how the Premier League administers the game, and with the threat of an independent regulator, the Premier League could be tempted to use the Everton case as an example of how capable the Premier League is of dealing with its own affairs.

In the case of Everton the Premier League's integrity is also at stake

There is an argument from an Evertonian point of view, that however many points are docked, if they are indeed docked, the Premier League would only be adding to the running deficit, due to the number of points they have informally taken off the club, due to the 'mistakes' of their officials out on the pitch and in the VAR rooms.

Tony Everan
263 Posted 28/10/2023 at 09:26:35
What is the procedure now? Have they made a decision? Have they decided the punishment? Do they go home and think about it and reconvene? How do they remain impartial and independent in the interim with the Premier League leaking stories?

Now the independent commission has concluded, I just hope that everything remains independent and confidential. Also, it's crucial that the three members are not subjected to any outside influences by way of any communications in any form in the interim.

James Marshall
264 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:08:17
Has anyone mooted a suspended points deduction and maybe a fine? That would seem like an appropriate punishment, surely? Using the suspended points deduction as a sword of Damocles hanging over us for a few years while we get our house in order.

Man City have got 114 more charges against them than we have, so if we get a points deduction, surely an appropriate punishment for City would be to demote them to non-league status!

Alan J Thompson
265 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:15:03
Have I got this wrong but I thought the independent commission was looking to see if, and if so why, there had been any breach of P&S rules and would report their findings to the Premier League who would then determine any penalty, not both to be decided by the Commission.

And does anybody know if Premier League rules state that any penalty can only be enforced by a majority vote of all clubs or is dispensed in the same way as the penalty for the "Super League" clubs?

Tony Abrahams
266 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:26:49
Everton are allegedly defending themselves against one charge, but has anyone clarified with 100% certainty what that charge actually is?

There have been articles about 12-point deductions, but is it for not paying tax, or running up huge debts years ago?

I might be ignorant because I have chosen not to read these articles, but I've read a lot of posts on this thread and still can't work out what the actual charge is?

Barry Hesketh
267 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:32:12
Alan @ 265

I believe. that indeed it is the Commission who decide the case and mete out any punishments that they deem fit, if the accused is found guilty. The Premier League or the club can appeal their decision and the punishment, should they so wish to.

I don't think that other Premier League clubs have a say in any of the punishments. The 20 clubs all agreed to abide by whatever financial rules are in place, but as far as I know, there is no formal set of punishments in place for the breaking of financial rules.

Tony @266

The charge has never been made public - so apart from the club, the Premier League and the Commission, nobody knows for sure, although I think it was Paul Joyce who said it was something to do with tax on a loan assigned to the stadium, that had caused an issue.

Graham Fylde
268 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:32:51
No, Alan, the way it works is that the Premier League brought the charge/complaint that EFC breached the P&S limit for a set period.

The Premier League are analogous to the prosecution and have to prove the case (on a balance of probability). EFC are the respondent (think 'defendant') and the 3-person panel are the judges.

The panel is selected from professionals with relevant experience (legal, accounting etc) and they will decide both whether the Premier League have proved their case and what the punishment should be.

The punishment is difficult to gauge because they have complete discretion and no obvious reference point. There is an appeals process in the rules too.

Michael Kenrick
269 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:33:33

The specific nature of the breach Everton have been charged with has not been made public.

Lots of rumours, speculation, leaks… but nothing specific.

Paul Hewitt
270 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:45:48
Don't know if this is true but the charges are supposed to be that we claimed loses of over £90 million over the COVID period. That's double the next nearest. The Premier League don't believe us.
Brian Harrison
271 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:46:30

You are correct. I haven't seen what the club are being charged with.

Why the secrecy? Has the club or the commission decided that they don't want it made public, as they both must know what the charge is for?

Also, if reports are correct and the commission have finished their deliberations, why are we having to wait for a few weeks for this to be made public? All seems very strange to me.

Brendan McLaughlin
272 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:49:29
Tony #266,

I don't think anyone has a clue but it relates to the 21/22 season/financial year. Although of course the previous 2 years' losses will also have contributed to us breaching the P&S limit.

There was speculation initially that the charge related to a player transfer but that has now been overtaken by a suggestion around tax/VAT in relation to the new stadium.

I don't think there's any suggestion of Everton not having paid tax – rather that it hasn't been properly accounted for in the books. Possibly Everton have shown something as stadium-related and not to be included in the P&S calculation but in the view of the Premier League it should have been included.

A lot of speculation on my part of course.

Rob Halligan
273 Posted 28/10/2023 at 10:54:13
Paul, if that's true, then in terms of the amount of money in the Premier League today, that is absolutely nothing, and certainly does not deserve a 12-point deduction.

When you say 'double the next nearest', do you mean £90M more, or £45M? If true, then we're looking at a suspended fine at the most.

Michael Kenrick
274 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:04:18
Hi Brian @271,

The 'secrecy' as you call it is a result of the private and confidential provisions obscuring much or all of the detail from the prying eyes of the public and the press. This was presumably agreed to by the Premier League clubs.

I imagine the findings of the independent commission will need to be formulated and written up in the form of a quasi-judicial document: "unless the parties otherwise agree, the Commission shall give its reasons for its decision (a copy of which shall be provided to the Chair of the Judicial Panel)."

Brendan McLaughlin
275 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:10:03
Rob #273,

I'm not sure if Paul is correct. The charge relates to the 21/22 season and Everton's big Covid claims related to prior seasons. Although there may still have been some Covid impact in 21/22.

Irrespective of the figure concerned, I imagine the Commission will be equally concerned with the cause of the alleged breach.

Did Everton make an honest mistake and simply get the P&S regulations wrong? Or was there an attempt to knowingly and willfully mislead?

I think it's those factors that will influence the punishment as much as the amount of money concerned. Assuming of course that we are found to have done anything wrong.

Paul Hewitt
276 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:11:23
If Everton don't get punished enough for the Premier League's liking, then I wouldn't be surprised if they block the 777 buyout, hoping we go into administration that carries a 9-point deduction.
Tony Abrahams
277 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:21:40
Thanks for everyone who has taken the time to explain that the charge hasn't been made public, which definitely indicates (to me) that some gutter journalists are stirring the pot without good reason, and they should be banned from attending Goodison Park, for perpetrating lies.

If they are not perpetrating lies, then someone is leaking these stories, and surely this would bring the whole process into disrepute, if Everton could find out who is behind these defamatory leaks?

Michael Kenrick
278 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:27:26

Further to the independent commission preparing its decision in writing, there's a subsequent section of the rules that may yet come into play, and result in yet further delay.

It's called "Interim Applications".

Now this appears to get pretty complicated, but I can see it happening from either side, with one or other seeking "any interim measures, relief or order that they wish to make to the Commission" — this is after receiving the decision of the commission, but before the commission is deemed to have been "Fully Constituted".

Such "Interim Application" would lead to an "Interim Commission" comprising one of the 3-person panel hearing.

"The Interim Commission shall decide all procedural and evidential matters and shall give directions within two clear days of their appointment with a view to ensuring the resolution of the Interim Application within 14 clear days of it being made, save in exceptional circumstances."

In other words… it ain't over till it's over!

Graham Fylde
279 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:31:02
Not to be picky, Brendan, but the charge relates to the period ending 21/22, so prior years with covid figures could be relevant I believe.

The problem with having no detail of the charge is that any of the elements mentioned could be the cause of breaching the 3-year limit.

Michael Kenrick
280 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:32:27

There's a third possibility, which is that these bastard journo hacks just made the whole thing up for the sake of a brilliant headline: "12-point deduction" — shock horror!!!

Sadly there is really absolutely no redress that can be obtained for such dastardly cunning. Something about Freedom of the Press (Levinson Enquiry notwithstanding).

Michael Kenrick
281 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:39:20

Thanks for your sensible and knowledgeable additions to this discussion.

On the 3-year thing, what do you make of the Covid provision and how it expanded things to 4 years with two of them averaged because of Covid?

Do you think this is part of the P&S equation or not?

Graham Fylde
282 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:39:48
Michael, in what way do you think interim measures might be relevant?
Dave Abrahams
283 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:51:34
Paul (276), if 777 gets blocked I think there are other people waiting / expecting to come in with their offer.
Graham Fylde
284 Posted 28/10/2023 at 11:56:58
Michael 281, yes I think it has to be.

Essentially, the rule is simple. Don't breach £105m loss over 3 year period (as you say the covid years include 2 years averaged).

Off the top of my head, our top line losses for the 3 years is around £300m so we have to then deduct what we can to get to £105m and the covid losses are a big (and contentious) part of that.

One of my worries is that, even if there was something like a tax accounting mistake that caused us to go beyond the figure, the charge is so wide that it allows the commission to open up all of the elements for scrutiny.

Paul the Esk got our overspend for the period (after deductions) down to about £60m some time ago and that's why he finds it hard to believe this is EFC tripping over a small procedural thing. We just don't know till the judgement!

Michael Kenrick
285 Posted 28/10/2023 at 13:30:37

If I read it correctly, it seems that if one or other of the parties (Everton or the Premier League) may feel that some measure, order or relief could or should be considered, probably in respect of the punishment ordered.

I see it as an added opportunity for Everton to claim relief from the penalty if they can argue it is unreasonable, disproportionate or unprecedented. For example, in the extreme: "What you have ordered will result in putting the club into administration and possible termination." I don't believe they have the opportunity to make such a point as part of their case because it depends on the commission's findings.

Graham Fylde
286 Posted 28/10/2023 at 14:49:16
That's an interesting take, Michael.

I think a more conventional use for interim measures is to allow something to continue or, sometimes, to stop something from continuing pending the outcome of a hearing. So in the interim period between complaint and judgement the interim order would uphold a position that ultimately might be ruled against once the commission's decision is made.

Like so much of this case, we'll only see in the coming days/weeks. Christ I hope it's not longer than that, I'll have a breakdown!

Brendan McLaughlin
287 Posted 28/10/2023 at 18:52:59
No worries, Graham #279,

I actually don't mind picky and of course the losses in the previous 2 years are relevant as they contribute to the overall 3-year calculation.

The point I was trying to dismiss is the suggestion that the charge relates in some way to the huge amount we claimed in Covid exemptions 2 or 3 years back.

We were given a clean bill of health back then but, despite this, people still seem to feel this to be the reason we were charged with breaching P&S guidelines.

I'm simply saying it's not relevant.

Charles Brewer
288 Posted 28/10/2023 at 19:47:16
I have little doubt that the authorities are indeed trying to destroy Everton and that probably the serial murderers across the park are behind much of what is going on. (I do not blame the press in any sense – none of the papers involved make stuff up withput very good grounds and evidence.)

My own perfect outcome would be for Taylor Swift to buy the club. First, there would be the opportunity for an annual series of concerts at the new ground – preferably with eye-watering ticket prices. That would be nice.

But best of all, imagine what would happen within the families of the twats currently plotting our downfall. There would be 14-year-old girls (and Justin Trudeau) besieging their parents, uncles, grandfathers or whoever else was involved day and night, on social media, the threats would be endless and the protagonists absolutely unassuageable. And not just in this country, the sleazy creeps of UEFA, FIFA and in the government would be under incessant and extreme pressure.

Finally, the RS would become the hate figures of the most demented demographic on the planet, teenage girls, and would probably fold ignominiously into a pathetic heap within a few months.

Sadly, this would probably have been a call Bill Kenwright actually could have made.

Julie Naybour
289 Posted 28/10/2023 at 21:20:23
According to "Goodison News' – which is usually so anti-Everton, I think it must be written by someone across the park – Simon Jordan said the Premier League have made their case and it's quite flimsy.

No idea how he knows but, in this case, I really hope they're right.

Derek Thomas
290 Posted 28/10/2023 at 22:19:43
Don't worry, we'll get a fair trial – just like this one?


Brian Dagnall
291 Posted 29/10/2023 at 07:22:19
Has anyone considered in this matter what should be the course of natural justice? If the independent commission finds the case proven, then who should suffer the consequences? We the supporters would be the most affected by the punishment as we watch our team struggle to overcome a points deduction. And what have we done wrong?

The owner and the board he appointed are the people to blame and the Premier League approved him as a fit and proper person, not us.

I followed the case against Derby County when they went into liquidation. Their supporters suffered two points deductions. When their supporters learned that the St John's Ambulance had lost money as a result of the liquidation, they clubbed together so that the charity were paid. These supporters are wonderful people not deserving to be picked on by the EFL.

Eventually only foreign-owned huge corporations will be able to comply with the cash-mad Premier League. 25 years from now, the top Premier League game will be Google Athletic v Apple United. The two mega companies will own all the networks by then anyway. And the Premier Leaguewill approve it all on the nod. They are not fit for purpose.

Tony Everan
292 Posted 29/10/2023 at 07:33:56
Good post, Brian, if guilty fine the owner £100M, not the club. The club is its fans, as you say they have done nothing wrong and pay a lot of money to follow their club. They deserve better.
Tony Abrahams
293 Posted 29/10/2023 at 07:57:57
The league is an absolute sham when you consider how the Glazers have been able to make so much money out of Manchester United, and have no rules in place for this type of leveraged buy-out.

I'm reading that 777 Partners are trying to find half a billion pounds in loans to purchase Everton, and although they are not trying to put the loan onto the club, will this really make things better for Everton?

Danny O’Neill
294 Posted 29/10/2023 at 08:21:42
It's a disgrace Tony.

We are potentially being made an example of as an easy target on one charge.

City with their 115 charges. In theory, they could face a Glasgow Rangers type scenario.


Aston Villa?

Even Nottingham Forest living about their means.

If they open this can of worms, then if they demonstrate consistency it won't just be Everton.

Tony Abrahams
295 Posted 29/10/2023 at 08:35:23
One months salary of the biggest earners in the EPL, would keep at least 33% of the clubs in the EFL, operating for a full year, and yet journalists would sooner write unsubstantiated shite about Everton. No wonder the sport has become so vulgar, with controversy scoring so much higher than skill, in these modern day statistical charts.
Brian Wilkinson
296 Posted 29/10/2023 at 00:20:54
The breakaway big six who clearly broke the rules have a very interesting intake, they were faced with it being the owners fault and that the team and supporters should not be punished through it being the fault of the owners.

It was decided that no points deduction should be applied, as it was unfair on the supporters and the club.

However clubs have faced similar situations, where a club has gone into administration, because of the owner, not the fault of the fans or the players, however the following were not so lucky, even though it was not the fans fault.
Wrexham -10 points
Cambridge utd -10 points
Rotherham Utd -10 points
Crawley Town -6 points
Boston Utd -10 points
Leeds Utd -10 points Leeds Utd again -15 points
Luton Town -10 points
Luton again -20 points
Bournemouth-10 points
Bournemouth again - 17 points
Chester City - 26 points
Stockport -10 points
Southampton -10 points
Crystal Palace -10 points
Portsmouth - 9 points premier league
Bolton Wanderers -12 points
Wigan -12 points

There are many more but every team above were docked points, through the owners fault, and not the fans.

The only teams to escape a points deduction, through the fault of the owners were the big six breakaway teams.

Stinks to high heavens.

Rob Halligan
297 Posted 31/10/2023 at 08:28:09
News now breaking that Chelsea are being investigated for potentially breaching financial rules regarding the transfers of Samuel Eto'o and Willian back in 2013.

The likes of Man City and Chelsea appear to have been breaching rules for years, with seemingly very little being done about it, other than some paltry fines, which mean very little to them, yet we are being hung out to dry for one potential breach………..

Chelsea: Samuel Eto'o and Willian transfers under Premier League investigation

Brian Harrison
298 Posted 31/10/2023 at 09:47:18
I would love to know how people like Simon Jordan know exactly what has been going on at this commission hearing which was supposed to be held in private.

Jordan said that he thought in the 1st week of the commission the Premier League's case seemed very weak, but was much stronger in the 2nd week.

Also, the Premier league it seemed leaked to all and sundry that, if guilty, they want the commission to impose a 12-point penalty.

Despite being told months ago that we would find out our fate on the 25 October, we are now being told it will be weeks before the commission releases their decision.

I am presuming that the KC that Everton hired, if not given the decision, will have some idea of what he thinks will be the outcome, and presumably has informed our owner of his thoughts.

Now I know Moshiri probably felt compelled to attend the West Ham game following Bill Kenwright's death, but I wonder whether the owners of 777 Partners being there had any added significance to Moshiri being there?

Could he have been told the commission's findings and was there to inform 777 and discuss the final figure if any points deductions are likely?

Phil Wood
299 Posted 31/10/2023 at 10:43:55
Great Martin Samuel article in the Sunday Times

"Big Six" got away with a slap on the wrist for plotting to ruin domestic football. Why are the Premier League trying to crush Everton? Well worth a read.

One conclusion is that they are trying to use us as an example to the politicians that they can regulate football. As if!

Chris Corn
300 Posted 31/10/2023 at 11:47:28
Might already have been mentioned further up but Arsenal and Spurs got a £120m and £175m BoE covid loan. We also kept our back office staff on, when others were laying them off.
Might go towards why our losses were so much greater.
Kevin Edward
301 Posted 31/10/2023 at 12:01:43
This Premier League ‘competition' is so bent out of shape then I wonder who is really going to sign off any penalties coming from the commission?

I would scrutinise the interests of anyone involved with signing off a decision that penalises the club and fans.
I'm not sure that ‘independent' really works where football is concerned, if you are detached then the likelihood is you don't understand the impact.

Anyway let's see, maybe a ‘no score draw' with a suspended sentence so the Super Six can plough on under the radar.

Tom Bowers
302 Posted 31/10/2023 at 12:07:42
You just know Everton will be the ''Whipping Boys'' in this whole affair if found guilty. They are not one of the top ''money clubs'' so they will probably get hit with the points penalty on top of anything else unlike the top clubs who just got massive fines.

Chelski got fined for financial deception for many years under the Russian Abramovich and no points deduction and that fine was just a drop in the ocean for Chelski.

James Marshall
303 Posted 31/10/2023 at 12:20:24
If we're found guilty this will run & run anyway - we won't accept the findings if we're found in breach, and will almost certainly appeal whatever the decision if it's found not to be in our favour.

If it's in our favour, you might well find the opposite is true, and the Premier League appeal the decision and press for us to be sanctioned.

Either way, my suspicion is that nothing will be resolved this season, and even if it is, any points deduction would only apply from next season anyway - surely they can't apply a points deduction mid-season?

It has to be as even a playing field as possible, and as such any deduction would be for the following season.

Kim Vivian
304 Posted 02/11/2023 at 11:37:55
Long time waiting, and I had forgotten about it, tbh, but I had a reply to my email - see both below...

Dear sirs

I am a lifelong Everton supporter so by definition pay particular attention to news pertaining to "my" club.

I have read in The Daily Telegraph that they claim exclusive information regarding recommendations by the PL to the independent commission about potential penalties to the club if they are found (among other clubs) to have breached the league's P&S rules.

Can the league confirm if this is fact and indeed if it is official information which may be available in the public domain? Or is it simply unfounded and ill disposed rumour mongering by the journalists reporting the recommendation for whatever reason?

If it is the former, I am surprised not to see similar articles in other media, and the DT would not then be claiming, tabloid fashion, an "exclusive". If it is the latter I would suggest a friendly word in the ear of someone at the DT might be in order.

However if it is possibly a third scenario - that the PL will indeed be recommending as the DT claim but it is not supposed to be official public knowledge, then the PL look closer to home and find out who might be stirring up this gossip.

Thank you in anticipation. I look forward (somewhat optimistically) to receiving your reply and perhaps an explanation, and remain in the meantime

Yours faithfully

Kim V Vivian,

Kent based expat Evertonian


General Info

10:46 (45 minutes ago)

to me

Dear Kim

Thank you for your email.

Please visit the link below for our most recent update:


As the statement confirms, the matter is currently being investigated by an independent Commission. We are unable to comment further while this is ongoing, but will publish details of the Commission’s final award once the matter has been concluded.

I hope this helps to explain our position.

Kind regards,


Supporter Relations

Rob Halligan
305 Posted 02/11/2023 at 11:49:51
Kim, I've received exactly the same email, at 10:48.
Billy Bradshaw
306 Posted 02/11/2023 at 12:48:37
Just seen my reply from the Premier League, same wording as above, sent at 10:55 am.
Stephen Vincent
307 Posted 02/11/2023 at 13:15:50

Just replied that I wasn't complaining about the process but about the fact that the national press was full of leaks, apparently from the Premier League, and that to address the situation the Premier League should clarify their position.

Derek Knox
308 Posted 02/11/2023 at 13:43:30
I was one of (I presume) the many incensed by the leak of Everton's alleged punishment and points deduction. I received a very generic reply which totally skirted the main concern altogether. Basically it said, thanks for you concern over Everton Football Club's possible punishment, which we cannot comment on, as it is still ongoing.

That did not address/redress the main complaint, in that any information being leaked must have come either from an official source or some Journalist had made it up for impact reason and sensationalism. Either way there should have been a punishment for the guilty party/ies.

Jay Harris
309 Posted 02/11/2023 at 13:52:39
Same here, political response totally ignoring the question.

We need a blue with contacts in the media to highlight these responses and challenge the Premier League. Any chance you know someone, Lyndon?

Meanwhile disappointing that Paul the Esk has suggested that 777 Partners and Moshiri attending games together is arrogantly suggesting that they are suggesting approval is a formality and this should be frowned upon by the authorities making the decision.

Jay Harris
310 Posted 02/11/2023 at 14:00:23
Derek, same response just fobbing us off.

I wonder if Lyndon can put a petition up for us all to lodge with one of the media to question this absurdity.

Meanwhile Paul the Esk is doing the takeover no favours by suggesting 777 and Moshiri attending the games together should be looked upon unfavourably by the people deciding whether they are fit and proper persons.

Give it a rest, Paul, please. Not many are overenamoured with the prospect of 777 Partners as new owners but at least they will provide hands-on business management – something Dumb and Dumber have neglected for years.

Rob Hooton
311 Posted 02/11/2023 at 14:07:42

Andy Hunter at The Guardian is a Blue, perhaps worth contacting him?

Jay Evans
312 Posted 02/11/2023 at 14:23:18
My reply was exactly the same.

Didn't expect much else really.

Onward Evertonians.

John Keating
313 Posted 02/11/2023 at 14:23:20
Got exactly the same reply.

I then replied to @Hisham:

Bloody fob off.

Ray Roche
314 Posted 02/11/2023 at 15:25:32
Kim, the email says:

“We are unable to comment further while this is ongoing.”

However, surely their leaking of the penalty they want if we're guilty is in fact a statement in itself? They appear to be preparing us for what we can expect, or, if we get a lesser penalty of say, 6 points, then we would feel relieved but they would still have severely punished us.

Les Callan
315 Posted 02/11/2023 at 16:21:43
Yes, Ray. This is exactly what I've pointed out to them.

(No doubt others have as well.)

Ray Roche
316 Posted 02/11/2023 at 16:23:34
Great minds Les…..👍🏻
Brendan McLaughlin
317 Posted 07/11/2023 at 18:47:42
The Independent Football Regulator included in the Kings Speech...stand by for a significant points reduction levied on Everton by the Independent Commission.

(PS The Kings Speech is where the government outlines the legislative framework for the incoming year...not the film)

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