28/11/2023 112comments  |  Jump to last

Updated Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham has described the decision by Sky Sports not to broadcast an interview with him regarding the historic points deduction meted out to Everton as "deeply troubling".

The former Cabinet Minister and lifelong Evertonian has called for the 10-point penalty to be reversed and voiced those criticisms of the league in a recorded conversation with the broadcaster but Sky elected not to run the interview before Sunday's televised match between the Blues and Manchester United.

Burnham has called for an explanation for the decision amid suspicion that Sky have deliberately sought to minimise the impact of criticism of the Premier League commission's censure of Everton and the vociferous protests that have erupted from supporters in the aftermath.

He claims on X that other people have contacted him to say that their own interviews on the topic were not broadcast either.

Article continues below video content

Sky's cameras ignored a plane, bearinga message of protest against the league paid for by an Everton supporters group, flying over the Etihad Stadium on Saturday before Manchester City's game against Liverpool and refused to show the players entering the field of play at Goodison Park on Sunday as fans booed and held up placards branding the Premier League "corrupt".

"I don’t know why it wasn’t broadcast and I’d very much like an explanation," Burnham told Mail Sport in regard to his suppressed interview. "As a former Cabinet Minister, I don’t expect third parties to decide what I can and cannot say.

"There seems to be a wider picture here with views expressed by Evertonians at the game being silenced too," he added. "I find all this very troubling. They’ve have denied us our points. It surely can’t be right to deny Evertonians our voice as well?"

According to Mail Sport sources, "Sky were ... reminded of their ‘editorial responsibilities’ before Burnham’s interview" while the broadcaster blamed its omission on a "shift in editorial direction" following the death of Terry Venables.

They also insist that, despite rumours to the contarary before the match, the volume from the home crowd was not turned down for the broadcast of Sunday's match.

Burnham spoke with reporters before the game where he echoed the arguments he had put forward in a letter to the Premier League last week, including that the penalty issued to Everton should be declared "null and void".

“The question in this situation is, has there been a fair process?" he said. "After studying the case, I have concluded that there has not been a fair process, there has been a highly flawed process. I would go as far to say there has been an abuse of process.

“And that abuse of process concerns the guideline and framework that was put together in August and submitted to the independent commission. I have been a government minister and been very familiar with the world of regulations and regulatory practice.

“You cannot in an ongoing case create new policy in the middle of (it) and then introduce it towards the end of it. It is what people would call regulatory malpractice – it is simply not possible to do that. But that is what happened in this situation.

“I would say the process should be declared null and void because of the regulatory malpractice of introducing new rules in the middle of a process, when really no regulator ever should do that.”

The Premier League have pushed back on Burnham's assertion that there was an "abuse of process", with chair Alison Brittain writing to the Mayor to explain that all 20 top-flight clubs rejected a system of fixed penalties by vote in 2020 but that, in this case, the League had recommended a six-point deduction as a starting point and then a further point for every £5m by which Everton had exceeded the PSR threshold.

According to The Telegraph, she also Brittain also told Burnham that the commission eventually found the club's "refusal to stop spending on players" as the deciding factor in them going over the permitted limits and that warranted the deduction.


Reader Comments (112)

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Derek Wadeson
1 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:57:13
It was nice to see Andy Burnham on the Sophie Ridge Politics programme on Sky TV last night talking Everton and the unfairness of the sanctions.
Dean Williams
2 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:17:30
No surprises there then.
Jack Convery
3 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:23:03
The UK is slipping into a really dark place. This is just another example of the way people's voices are being silenced if they don't suit the narrative being pursued by those with power.

'The great unelected', as I once heard them described, suits the Premier League and their ilk perfectly.

Kunal Desai
4 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:30:43
Time to boycott Sky and cancel that subscription. They are every bit complicit in this.
Ben King
5 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:32:49
We seem to be living in a post truth era. Where lies can be told about Brexit and immigrants. Where media decide in advance in a war, who is right and wrong, and create their narrative accordingly

And now, they decide that not only is it correct and fair to deduct Everton a record number of points, they also won't show proper protest about it.

The Establishment and capitalist forces are creating a disgusting reality.

Peter Jones
6 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:46:36
Exactly. Disgusting what’s going on.
Craig Walker
7 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:53:25
Didn't show the banners. Didn't show the plane. Muted the chants. Any free kick or throw in, they chose to focus on a player in the middle of the pitch. Had Roy Keane, Gary Neville, Dalglish's daughter and no representation from Everton in their coverage. Didn't show any of the marches or protests.

The thing is, I'm not one bit surprised. They are in cahoots with their favourite six, plus Newcastle. We don't matter and I think they wanted us relegated to boost viewing figures in the Championship.

Dale Self
8 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:55:59
Yes! I think they have made Andy upset and given themselves a PR headache. This is just the kind of petulant ass-covering that gives away the game. A week or two of this and our odds of reduction increase.
Rob Halligan
9 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:03:24
Well let's see if TNT Sports react the same way this Sunday.

I'm off to Antigua in a couple of days for the cricket between West Indies and England, and I've got twenty of those pink cards stashed away in my bag to take. They will hopefully all be getting held up during about eight hours of play… well, certainly one will anyway.

Keith Slinger
10 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:04:22
I was always a Tory supporter and still am, but Andy Burnham is a shock being an Everton fan! But good on him and Steve Rotherham for speaking out on this ludicrous points deduction.

As for Sky doing their dirty business, they will still make their money as no-one else will televise the rights of the Premier League unless it's foreign, and without the EPL money, Everton could be in the mire once again.

Fuck off, Moshiri, leave our fantastic club, Please!

Paul Birmingham
11 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:04:24
This adds more to the stink and would seem closing of ranks with the Premier League. Sky clearly have their own agenda in this Everton v Premier League, appeal case.

I stopped my Sky contract in September, before this kicked off, but it's not good value anymore, imho, and I will never be going back.

This adds more fuel to the litany of malpractice undertaken by the Premier League and its cronies in their self-appointed commission.


John Atkins
13 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:12:58
Cancelled my Sky Subscription last Friday … when asked by the customer service agent my reason, I told him I was an Evertonian and that both Sky and the Premier League are corrupt and I want no part of this disgusting bias and control.

The guy had no answer … do one Sky and you can stick your box where the sun doesn't shine.

John Atkins
14 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:17:25
ps…. They are sending me a box to package the sky box and send back to them

Good luck with that Sky as it's already smashed to pieces so it'll be rattling back to you at Sky HQ wrapped in Pink PL corruption signs

Duncan McDine
15 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:19:02
I'm also cancelling Sky altogether... TV, broadband, mobiles, the lot. Comes to about £2000 every year. Multiply that by the amount of disgruntled blues out there and they might just get the picture.

The only shame is I won't be able to spot Rob and his pink card on the telly!!

David Vaughan
16 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:20:27
Cancelled my Sky subscription on Sunday. Should have done it years ago.

To be honest, apart from Everton, I only watched the Championship and lower. I've despised the Premier League for many years now, long before they seem to have finally exposed themselves as a self-appointed filtering system.

In fact, if it wasn't for the existential threat of relegation, I would love to live life with Everton outside the Premier League, at least in its current apparently corrupt state.

John Atkins
17 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:20:27
Problem is Duncan …. We all have to do it …. Not just a handful of us

George Stuart
18 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:25:31
Follow the money.
Protect your brand.
David Vaughan
19 Posted 28/11/2023 at 21:26:56
Follow the brand.
Say goodbye to your money.
And your voice.
Derek Knox
20 Posted 28/11/2023 at 22:04:53
Always had a lot of time for Andy Burnham, I like his both political outlook, never forgetting the man in the street, and his unstinting love for Everton.

I have often seen him post-match wading through the crowds exiting the ground. God knows what it will be like at the new stadium with only one road in and out, and a potential extra 10,000!

I just hope that, with him being a well-known figure, maybe just maybe someone will listen and act upon it. I won't hold my breath though.

Kudos to those who have disassociated themselves from Sky, if enough follow suit, alarm bells may just start to ring!

Shane Corcoran
25 Posted 28/11/2023 at 22:16:58
Does anybody know the appeals process? When does it start, how long will it take etc?
Paul Kossoff
26 Posted 28/11/2023 at 22:32:46
Cancelled my Sky service years ago. Why don't we all print out pink cards with Sky and the Premier League are corrupt and post them off?

Rob. I've still got my signed bat from the great Geoff Boycott, one of my heroes.

Paul Kossoff
29 Posted 28/11/2023 at 23:03:48
Shane 25.

The Echo understands that Everton, who believe the punishment to be unfair, unjust and disproportionate, are planning to formally lodge their appeal before the end of this week and that the appeal process will be completed before the end of the current 2022-23 season, although there is no more detailed guidance on a potential timescale at this stage.

The independent commission that handed out Everton's immediate 10-point deduction was chaired by David Phillips KC with the two other members being His Honour Alan Greenwood and Nick Igoe ACA. Everton's appeal will be heard before an entirely different set of individuals from the first independent commission but the Echo also understands the Premier League still appoints the panellists on the commission.

Independent? Yea, right.

Soren Moyer
30 Posted 28/11/2023 at 23:30:28
Premier League reminds me of, Napoleon, the pig from George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Everyone's equal but some are more equal than others.

Ste Traverse
31 Posted 28/11/2023 at 23:39:47
Funny how on Sunday morning in the lead up to the match, Sky had on two gobshite 'journalists' called Sam Wallace and Darren Lewis spouting off anti-Everton nonsense with that prick Wallace rambling on about the '£700m spend under Moshiri' which has got us into trouble. Another mythical lie which seems to be popping up everywhere.

I was at the match but believe Sky refused to employ any former Everton players as pundits. Probably feared they may speak out about the corrupt Premier League who they're in bed with, and now silencing Andy Burnham. What a disgrace but hardly a surprising one.

Two disgusting organisations.

Alec Gaston
32 Posted 29/11/2023 at 00:08:22
What are the odds on the appeal being drawn out just long enough for the panel to know how many points are needed to relegate us?

does anyone know if the points are reinstated until the outcome of the appeal?

Jerome Shields
33 Posted 29/11/2023 at 00:13:30
Sky is one of the vested interest groups in the Premier League.

Censorship of Evertonians on broadcasting the match and censorship of Evertonian Andy Burnham's interview.

Jack Convery
34 Posted 29/11/2023 at 05:26:51
Not one Tory has come out in support of Everton, yet Ian Byrne MP for West Derby and 2 Metropolitan Lord Mayors, Andy Burnham and Steve Rotherham, who are all Labour politicians, have. Tories claiming to be the party of the working class these days – my arse.

I've never had Sly Sports – anything with Murdoch's tentacles in it is to be avoided at all costs. Ask Jerri Hall.

Christine Foster
35 Posted 29/11/2023 at 06:17:33
Come on, think about it... do you really think that a certain Mr Masters would not have reminded Sky of ensuring that the Premier League is not dragged in front of global media? Hugely embarrassing for the Premier League to be shown as corrupt worldwide?

No way did they want Sky televising anything of the protests, anything that might be seen as a protest to them. Sky are in bed with the Premier League – without them, Sky would not exist in the present format, of course they are in cahoots!

Danny O’Neill
36 Posted 29/11/2023 at 07:59:35
You took that away from me, Soren. The Premier League is George Orwell's Animal Farm.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

How apt. The Premier League is almost Stalinist in its approach. Feed the few, dismiss the many with a fly swat.

Censorship. Elitism. Favouritism. Pick on easy targets. I could go on.

Well, they have chosen the wrong club and set of supporters. And they are increasingly being called out and scrutinised at a national level now with widespread support from the football community. No doubt with a few nervous clubs looking over their shoulders.

The saying "you can't keep a good man down" is applicable. Okay, to be politically correct, a good person. If people are able and determined, they will recover from any difficulties or problems and be successful. Keep fighting Everton. We will overcome this.

Without wanting to go all political on an Everton and football forum, Labour missed a trick when they went for Corbyn over Andy Burnham. Not quite the scale, but the same when they chose the wrong Miliband brother.

Anyway, I'm glad that Andy is getting vocal. As was said on another thread (I think by Dave Abrahams), this is a man who stood at Anfield representing the Government. Got booed and heckled at times, but turned the crowd around. And then returned 5 years later at the memorial to almost a hero's welcome. He pushed and pushed on the Justice campaign, taking it to Parliament and achieving success.

Well, now here is his moment to take the authorities on again with Everton's cause.

As most of us have said, we don't deny wrongdoing or guilt of breaking the rules. But were is the proportionality and application to others?

And, the important factor here is that those, the perpetrators, are not going to be punished as they will sell up. It's the supporters and the employees (not players) of the club who suffer the consequences.

Fight Everton.

Christine Foster
37 Posted 29/11/2023 at 08:31:52
Danny, Fight indeed we must.

It's a point worth making that, apart from the owner who owns almost 100% of the club, all the other parties involved are no longer in the club or have passed. The only true sanction if found guilty would / should be financial as the owner is currently attempting to sell up.

Any points reduction penalises employees and fans yet not necessarily the owner, who could, should we be relegated, decide to hold on to his shares until which time the club returns to the Premier League when he can substantially recoup losses.

The points deduction means a financial hit of some £20M in placings as Lyndon says, but relegation – leaving the club on the brink of administration – benefits who exactly?

If there is a crime, which I still am not convinced of, then the punishment has to be in proportion to the offence.
I have said it prior to the sanction, we would be made a scapegoat and then the rules would be changed as a result, the only club suffering would be Everton. In the Premier League's eyes, a means to an end.

We have to stay up. By hook or by crook.. we need a team worth its weight in gold.. and we need to be public in all we do.

Dave Cashen
38 Posted 29/11/2023 at 08:35:39
"Regulatory malpractice"

Wow. He really is throwing bombs.

I wonder if one (or all) of those weasely fuckers at Premier League headquarters will dare to file for libel or slander. They would if they could prove otherwise.

Get in, Andy Burnham. You may have to get used to the silent treatment, but you have these corrupt bastards on the run.

Mike Walker
39 Posted 29/11/2023 at 08:55:50
Sky for me can go and fuck themselves – they think they're bigger than the Premier League or the Football Association, but they are not bigger than the viewers.

I stopped my Sky Sports subscription – nothing but London clubs to be honest.

Danny O’Neill
40 Posted 29/11/2023 at 09:01:03
Let's hope he keeps it going, Dave Cashen. He certainly seemed passionate when I spoke to him on Sunday evening returning from the match.

He's throwing hand grenades. If you've ever thrown one, it's very worrying once you pull the pin. Especially if it drops short. You have that "Oh my God!" moment and get your head down. Quickly!!!

I digress.

Probably a bit more calculated than me, but that's why he is a very well-respected and articulate politician. I'll admit, I was a bit emotional and hurting. But he was passionate about Everton and football.

Christine, you say it better than me. We have to fight and defend ourselves. We don't take this lying down.

If Rob Halligan is reading, I promise not to fight physically. Never have done. I took a punch once outside the Bullens by a Southampton supporter for some reason as I was heading towards Stanley Park. I was only 14 and it was unprovoked. I landed on the bonnet of a nearby car. Needless to say, he got sorted out by those around me and sent on his way.

Let's win our next match. East Midlands here comes the travelling blue army.

Dave Waugh
41 Posted 29/11/2023 at 09:23:24
Keep leading the charge, Andy. You are by far our best route to media coverage and public awareness on this matter.

The way Everton are being treated is an unjust outrage and we need to shame those who are part of that.

Mark Ryan
42 Posted 29/11/2023 at 09:29:23
I also noticed that when the 10 minutes came up on the clock and the placards came back out and the chanting started, the Sky commentator deliberately started talking louder and without him taking a breath, to effectively drown out the dissent from the beautiful crowd. It was so blatantly obvious what he was doing, it really sickened me.

I admire those who have cancelled their Sky subscription. I'm torn with deciding whether to follow suit because I love my Boxing, Cricket, Rugby etc. Would I be cutting my nose off to spite my face?

I'm sorely tempted reading these posts. Respect to those who already have

Brian Harrison
43 Posted 29/11/2023 at 09:50:12
Maybe the MPs who signed Ian Byrne's Early Day Motion on the deduction of 10 points from Everton could also be pushing for Masters to be put before a Select Committee to answer how they arrived at this decision and why haven't other clubs who have transgressed the rules been put before the commission?

While I am sceptical of what an independent government appointed head of administering future misdemeanours by clubs can achieve, I still think the rich and powerful will still be treated differently. When the PIF were in talks over taking over Newcastle, they warned the government not to try and block it; otherwise, Saudi Arabia would cancel its billion pounds defence contracts.

Also remember 12 months back when the P&O chairman fired all their British workers and employed workers from India on half the salary, and the supposed furore of probably the worst government I have seen in my lifetime, and what sanctions did P&O suffer?

Kim Vivian
44 Posted 29/11/2023 at 09:54:45
Well, it's all extremely noisy on here, and various Everton platforms nationwide and around the globe, but to be honest I am somewhat disappointed by how quiet it all is in the mainstream media and out on the street.

I am sure many, many football supporters from pretty much all clubs, and indeed non-football people actually, have similar views about the Premier League, and all credit to Andy Burnham for publicly speaking out.

It's great that a few high-profile figures are starting to be heard (if not broadcast) but I guess we have to concede that, now that Andy Burnham is widely recognised as an Everton supporter, to some extent that is playing against him. If he was a Liverpool fan, for example, then you can be sure his opinion would be getting amplified.

I thought the pink poster idea was brilliant as they really stood out in a stadium which is essentially blue, and would in fact at most stadiums. It will be interesting to see how many start popping up at grounds around the country.

As the article says, there appears to be widespread media "censorship" in play but they cannot censor individuals. I was wondering whether more widespread and available stickers and posters might somehow be made available to people to be able to visually demonstrate their support.

I'm thinking things like car window or bumper stickers, things that can be fixed inside one's house windows, metal badges and so on and so on. I certainly would get hold of a car window sticker and be happy to drive around asserting that the Premier League are Masters of corruption (play on names intended, btw). I guess it might be impractical to make these free but most Everton supporters would I'm sure be happy to pay and any proceeds from selling such items could be ploughed back into the cause.

Furthermore, I do not think this should cease just because, if and when, our own penalty is reduced or rescinded. People have been banging on about corruption at high levels, not just in football, and it would be nice to see this groundswell turn into a tsunami which might wash some or all of it from the game in time.

There are many many steps which could be taken to make elements of the game more fair and transparent – officiating, making VAR conversations audible (I don't think we will see the end of VARs), state ownership of clubs, agent dealings, player simulation etc etc.

The morality surrounding our game has become what it is and it will take time to restore a greater degree of integrity, but I live in hope even if not in my lifetime.

Meantime, keep fighting, Toffees!

Michael Lynch
45 Posted 29/11/2023 at 09:56:15
Just for some balance – and I have no time for Sky or the Premier League – I watched the match on TV, which I rarely do, and I was very aware of the booing of the Premier League ceremony at the start, and of the banners and pink cards, and of the protest on 10 minutes.

Plus, the fireworks were heard loud and clear, and Gary Neville and Cara have both made their feelings clear, despite being Sky employees.

Sky may well wish to play it all down because of their connections with the Premier League, but the protests are coming across loud and clear when you watch TV.

Keep up the noise, it's being heard.

46 Posted 29/11/2023 at 10:01:37
Get Andy B appointed onto the EFC board. He’ll soon shake them up & be an outstanding & forceful voice.
Brian Harrison
47 Posted 29/11/2023 at 10:13:50
I think the general feeling in football is that we have been treated very harshly for the amount we over spent. But would we be protesting if we were in the bottom 5 and a club in the relegation fight with us got docked points which gave us a better chance of avoiding relegation. This is a bit like the small allocation of Cup Final tickets while every club condemns the small allocation given to fans its only the clubs involved who protest, the rest of us shrug our shoulders and move on. So despite many thinking the punishment is to harsh its not something they are going to protest about, so we are pretty much on our own here.

As the weeks go by this will hardly be mentioned in the press, and even the date of when this commission will sit to hear the appeal is shrouded in secrecy. All we know is that the decision will be made before the end of the season. Also we were told that any club wishing to make a financial claim against Everton had just 7 days after the judgement to lodge their appeal, so has any club lodge an appeal for compensation.

Dave Abrahams
48 Posted 29/11/2023 at 10:23:28
Brian (47), A good balanced post Brian but I don’t think it alters the case that although we were guilty of the charge the sentence was very severe, like getting six months in gaol for a first offence of shoplifting.
John Pickles
49 Posted 29/11/2023 at 10:26:50
I like Andy Burnham, I hope one day he 'rescues' the Labour party from Starmer, (I don't like the current situation of choosing between the blue Tories or the red Tories). But too be fair, Sky do not 'owe' him an interview on Everton's treatment by the EPL.

He is indeed an 'ex' cabinet minister and the current Major of Manchester not Liverpool. His only relation to the situation is, he is an Everton fan. A famous and rather erudite one, but all in all, just another fan.

By the way I have never touched Sky Sports, never given them a penny, to me they ruined English football with their money and are more to blame than anyone else, for the domination of the favoured clubs.

Mark Taylor
50 Posted 29/11/2023 at 10:30:35
I've no great love for Sky, however I agree with Michael 45, I think we are exaggerating this somewhat. We can't be sure but if Venables hadn't died, I suspect they would have shown the interview. Why otherwise bother to record it? Maybe we have to be realistic and accept that more people are interested in the death of a famous player and manager, than they are in us.

The panel they had weren't muzzled. The issue was discussed for a decent amount of time, all thought the punishment was harsh and that counted for more given none were EFC supporters. They showed the banners in the crowd and you heard the protests clearly.

Next up is the claim Tories are not supporting this. Not true, Caroline Dineage is the Tory chairman of the CMS committee, therefore a quite influential figure, and said:

"Today's announcement will be deeply disappointing for Everton fans, and for everyone who wants to see the English game thrive in a fair and sustainable way. It is clear that the status quo cannot continue "

Burnham is doing a useful job keeping this issue as high profile as possible but we need to be careful of getting a victim mentality and lashing out with unsubstantiated claims. It was the latter which got us exposed at the commission. It won't help our cause. Let's focus on the punishment and the rationale (or lack of it) for 10 points deduction.

In my view, most of the anger should be directed where it is deserved. At our useless owner and his hopeless, overpaid board that got us into this mess in the first place.

Peter Hodgson
51 Posted 29/11/2023 at 10:50:30
A very sensible and balanced view, Mark, which I hope that people on here take notice of. Not doing so will damage our case at the appeal hearing.

It is, as you infer, pointless moaning about people no longer here who were responsible for the abysmal way we were run and this was handled.

The only one left, if we are to name names (and why not?) is Moshiri who did his best to hide in the background and let others ostensibly carry the can. The sooner he is gone, the better as far as I'm concerned.

Dave Abrahams
52 Posted 29/11/2023 at 11:07:46
Peter (51),

Yes, let's name some of the others:

Inglis and Sharp

Didn't they know how the club was being run? They were in charge of it while Moshiri lived in Monaco. He must take his share of the blame, there is plenty to share out, for allowing them to carry on as they did.

Meanwhile, the only constant support the club had over many, many years are left to suffer the consequences, us the fans.

Rob Halligan
53 Posted 29/11/2023 at 11:08:32
This excuse of not showing the Andy Burnham interview on Sky because of the death of Terry Venables, is purely a smoke screen.

We are now three days on from the game, and Sky could at any time have broadcast the interview. They must surely have been told by the Premier League not to broadcast it, there cannot be any other reason.

Danny # 40… I will have witnesses there who will let me know!!

Roll on Sunday!

Geoff Lambert
54 Posted 29/11/2023 at 11:27:31
Why not use some of the money raised to hire a top private investigator to look into the members of the panel and top Premier League officials? I bet they could turn up some headline news.
Rob Hooton
55 Posted 29/11/2023 at 11:37:31
Sky pretty much own the Premier League. They dictate when matches will be played and at what time and control the narrative, as well as the VAR cameras and the replays shown.

It wouldn't surprise me if they were behind the whole 10 points thing, to create a story to play out over the course of the season.

'Corrupt' is an understatement!

Les Callan
56 Posted 29/11/2023 at 11:51:45
Geoff @54. I was thinking that as well.

I bet there's loads to uncover. Not sure though that the amount raised would be sufficient to pay for really good Private Investigators.

Mark Taylor
57 Posted 29/11/2023 at 12:06:58
Peter @51,

On the 5 stages of grief, I'm now on 'bargaining' and focussed on that. I'm hoping, after the appeal, to miss out on 'depression' and move straight on to 'acceptance'.

There are many on here still stuck at 'denial' and 'anger' and for the latter, I was merely suggesting aiming that at the real cause of this, our truly inept leaders, not tilting at windmills...

Eric Myles
58 Posted 29/11/2023 at 12:29:19
Mark #42, and others. I live in a country with no Sky Sports subscriptions and can easily access any sport I want online.

Sometimes I even go to the pub to watch, which is even more enjoyable.

And to make online viewing more enjoyable, watch the Sky Sports streams so you're really screwing the cunts.

Eric Myles
59 Posted 29/11/2023 at 12:42:41
If Sky upset the Premier League by showing or commenting on protests, then the Premier League will not invite them to tender for the next round of broadcasting live games.
Tony Abrahams
60 Posted 29/11/2023 at 13:10:29
Interesting point that, Rob H.
Michael Lynch
61 Posted 29/11/2023 at 13:11:05
Eric, I can't imagine any situation in which the Premier League would tell Sky they are barred from bidding for the TV rights!
Kim Vivian
62 Posted 29/11/2023 at 13:20:26
Rob - 55.

Are you saying that you reckon the VAR cameras are Sky's? Surely not – that can only be you surmising, am I right?

Mark Taylor
63 Posted 29/11/2023 at 13:55:52
Eric 58,

Sadly I can't watch Sky on holiday abroad, even though I've paid for it, unless I pay extra for a VPN.

Tony Abrahams
64 Posted 29/11/2023 at 14:06:52
The Premier League have responded to Andy Burnham, but because it is behind a paywall, then I don't know what has been said.

It could get interesting because Sky and the Premier League have got a load of lackeys who are all on the gravy train, so hopefully our future prime minister doesn't back down!!

Mike Hayes
65 Posted 29/11/2023 at 15:01:26
Corrupt as fuck and they show it 🤷😡
Danny O’Neill
66 Posted 29/11/2023 at 15:15:44
Rob Hooton, it's getting ridiculous for those who travel, whether the game is home or away.

Newcastle on a midweek night with a 19:45 kick-off to stand in the gods. They've arranged the one at Goodison for the evening for a similar time this season. At least we might get the away section of the Upper Bullens.

And for the first time in decades, we have a fixture on Christmas Eve (not Everton). No consideration for supporters of any club.

If they wear Christmas jumpers, I will switch off.

Ken Kneale
67 Posted 29/11/2023 at 15:21:20
Dave A,

I agree, Messrs Kenwright, Barrett-Baxendale, Inglis and Sharp were all very conspicuous by their absence in support of the club that paid their wages and directors' fees despite the fact they were on the watch when the matters under scrutiny allegedly occurred.

In any event, they had both a legal and moral duty to run the club properly, and I would suggest, a moral duty towards the club now. It beggars belief they did not voluntarily appear to support the club in its hour of real need.

Given their roles, they knew or should have known what was happening whilst their paymaster ran the club at arms length leaving them to operate day to day.

Meanwhile, the real losers out of all of this emotionally, the fans were as you say, left to suffer the consequences of their ineptitude whilst simultaneously being accused of as yet, unsubstantiated allegations.

Brian Wilkinson
68 Posted 29/11/2023 at 16:13:38
I am getting fed up with every single media and pundit shooting down Everton at every opportunity.

Two years ago, protests were rightly made towards the board, every single one of them defended the board and labelled us rent a mob, they even swallowed the lies of fan threats against the board and headlockgate.

Then we have the 10-point deduction, every single one of them saying take your medicine and accept it, any fans that phoned in to TalkSport got ridiculed and spoken down to with "You broke the rules" – not one fan's balanced opinion was heard, just closed down with "You broke the rules".

Now Andy has brought all this to attention and all the media are jumping straight on to Andy Burnham, saying it's a waste of time, no suprises Simon Jordon straight in there having a pop at Andy.

Sunday was a waste of time, Roy Keane quipped up with, "Why protest, take your medicine" – you tell me why, Roy.

Roy Keane: "I have sympathy with the fans, 100%. It is a tipping point for them. It was peaceful. One or two bottles were thrown and a couple of flares – I think that was towards Jamie [Carragher], to be fair – but they've had enough.

"Enough is enough. United have some of the best fans in the world and we've seen today that they've come to the end with the ownership of the club. United fans obviously want the Glazers out.

"I think this is the start of it, they won't take too much notice of it... but they might stop coming to matches."

Oh but the above is fine to protest, because it involves the club you played for.

On the big six breakaway, they covered the fans' protest, they said it was not the fans' fault, they got sympathy and all the support from the media. The poor fans are getting blamed for greedy owners, banners the lot shown on various media streams, interviews with fans, protest marches filmed and shown.

Yet here we are, in the same circumstances, not the Everton fans fault, yet not one ounce of backing or support from anyone outside Everton.

Every single one of them backing the Premier League, while at the same time sticking the boot in on our football club, and avoiding showing the protest march, the interview with Andy Burnham, and some smart lowering the volume, not muted but certainly turned down a lot during the start of the match.

The only solution to this is the 14 clubs coming together and watching each other's back, because it will not be long before another easy target is found out of the 14 clubs, but at the moment, each one are just looking after themselves. Unless they find a way of backing the other 14, the other 6 will do whatever they like, and get away with it, from the top brass and the media.

Rob Halligan
69 Posted 29/11/2023 at 17:23:21
Good post, Brian.

Sky didn't want to show our march from The Brick on Sunday, and tried their best with the volume etc, but can I just remind everyone… which club's fans got a game abandoned before it had even kicked off, indeed even before the gates were opened, due to a protest against their owners?

Sky were all over this like flies round shit, no punishment handed out to the said club, and said club even given another chance to play the game at a later date…


Had that been us, wonder what kind of punishment would we have got?

John Atkinson
70 Posted 29/11/2023 at 17:24:29
I've been an avid daily follower on ToffeeWeb since it's creation. I also go to the comments and can spend hours nodding in agreement or shaking my head at some serious stupidity!!

I cancelled my Sky at the end of last season due to the clear and obvious bias for the privileged 6 darlings

John (13 & 14) good on ya!

John Gall
71 Posted 29/11/2023 at 17:28:15
Fred 46 - good call.

He'd be a great addition to the board – a passionate, articulate and well-connected fan.

Oh hang on... that sounds a bit like our former Chairman!

Sean Mitchell
72 Posted 29/11/2023 at 17:39:17
Forget Sky, and to a certain degree the Premier League, for a moment.

Our clueless owner has destroyed the club. He's the real culprit. His board are also to blame.

A handful of animals from Chester Zoo would have ran the club better.

Abysmal signings, over spending, a lapdog to the Russian fella, no backup plan. Now please, pack up and fuck off.

It's time this Everton curse went across the park! That lot are due 30+ years bad luck and counting.

Rob Halligan
73 Posted 29/11/2023 at 17:47:17
Red Echo have the reply from the premier league to Andy Burnham's letter…

Premier League responds to Andy Burnham after Everton 'abuse of power' claim

Barry Hesketh
74 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:04:47
An couple of extracts from that Echo piece that Rob H flagged up above:

She [Alison Brittain Premier League Chair] explained that a commission hearing a case independently ordinarily invite submissions from both sides on appropriate sanctions.”

That's pretty useful isn't it, Manchester City and Chelsea can try and influence how they might be punished if they actually come before any Independent Commission.

“Brittain also told Burnham that the Premier League worked with Everton continually over the period of the club's breach. That involved helping the club to monitor wages and transfer costs and regular warnings over the health of their finances. Ultimately, as the commission found, it was Everton's refusal to stop spending on players that put them in breach of PSR and vulnerable to a points deduction.”

To me, that smacks of, "you've done wrong, take your medicine – we warned you what would happen"

I think Everton will be very fortunate to have the points deduction reduced at all and it certainly won't be suspended or erased. I still wonder how the Premier League came to the conclusion that a points deduction of any amount was a suitable punishment for the crime.

Les Callan
75 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:10:47
Well that's it then. Having read the reply to Andy Burnham latter, we have no chance of having the points reduction changed.

Basically, Andy has been told to do one.

Les Callan
76 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:15:09
In retrospect, I've just had second thoughts. Won't this reply, now that it is the public domain, be considered as influencing the appeal?

Surely the matter is ‘sub judice’, and comments from either side should not be permitted. After all, the club have refused to comment in any detail.

Paul Washington
77 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:16:00
Isn't it in everyone's interests to sort this appeal out soon as possible?

Can you imagine the uproar if we get a couple of points back in April or May and dodge the drop.

There could be appeals against the appeal!

What a frigging mess.

Roger Helm
78 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:23:04
I have cancelled my subscription and sent my Sky box back. Since the Chuckle Brothers buggered up our cub, I don’t have much appetite for football anyway.
John Keating
79 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:36:01

I think more important than the 2 points you raised was the one where Brittain basically blames the Premier League teams for not introducing a punishment scale in 2020 when asked.

She says the clubs felt an open tariff system would be a greater deterrent. However, she does quote a system "similar" to the Football League and also quotes the 9 points given to a club entering administration.

Surely based on her examples, ie, the EFL and going into administration then how Everton's £19.5M overspend can be considered worse than administration is ridiculous.

Using the accepted 9 points for administration, surely an "independent" commission would use that as a maximum?
By the Premier League calling for an even bigger point deduction prior to and during the "trial", the "independent" commission were surely pressurised into going above the 9 points.

I think this reply from Brittain actually backs up Andy's take on this decision.

Ian Linn
80 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:39:21
I never use Sky or anyone else 'official', I watch all my games on VipLeague, sometimes takes a little clicking to get to the game but it costs me nothing.
David West
81 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:41:02
I don't go for the big conspiracy against us from the league, and them influencing Sky not to broadcast this interview.

Yes, the 10-point deduction is harsh but a punishment is deserved for the total incompetence shown by the board and the owner. We would be asking for other clubs to be punished.

I believe this interview not being broadcast was more to do with Sky's disregard for any team that's not part of the Big 6. They are just not that bothered. It was a story for them while the international break was on, a filler to fill time. Sky couldn't give a toss if we go down, stay up or not, we just don't matter to their "brand".

When Man City get their punishment, they will broadcast all the uproar every hour on the hour. They will have Noel Gallagher crying on breaking news, Burnham will have to speak again being the mayor of Manchester, will Sky put that one on the back-burner?? Me thinks not!!

Barry Hesketh
82 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:42:53
John @ 79,

Obviously I'd be over the moon with your take on the matter, anything that gets the number of points reduced or suspended or completely removed will be welcomed with open arms.

But unfortunately, it's gone too political for my liking and there's so much at stake for the 'brand' and Everton are in complete disarray off the park.

We don't have any heavy hitters available from within the club – even the late Mr Kenwright, may have been pretty useful for this particular cause.

James Marshall
83 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:43:49
Sheffield Wednesday were deducted 12 points for breaching FFP rules, and had it reduced to 6 on appeal.

That alone should be enough to get ours reduced to 5 points on appeal IMO.

Albeit a slightly different charge, there is a precedent.

Brent Stephens
84 Posted 29/11/2023 at 18:57:00
BBC Radio Merseyside 7.00pm I think to discuss our spat with EPL
Barry Hesketh
85 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:06:04
Barry Hesketh
86 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:09:06
Brent. that Radio Merseyside broadcast might prove interesting:

Giulia Bond is hosting a one-hour special on BBC Radio Merseyside to discuss wheteher football's financial rules are working.

Her guests will include former Everton chief executive Keith Wyness, finance expert Mike Gow, Birmingham City fan Daniel Ivery and Fair Game UK.

Martin Farrington
87 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:14:50
I despise politicians, but I know Andy Burnham is a blue. So there's one I don't.

It was him that started the process that began to have the original and further Hillsborough inquiries rescinded. Including the undisclosed evidence that was never to be released into the public domain. Thus exposing and risking his political career.

Whilst I have my own beliefs on the tragedy and LFC "fans", and they are not positive, Burnham went up in my estimation by doing so.

So, if he gets involved, you know that he isn't gonna be fucked over by some no-mark jobsworth like Alison Brittain.

He has more legal knowledge, shrewdness and integrity in his little finger than her, the Premier League and their "independent" commission.

As for Sky, they are the executors of the situation to which football has become.

Brent Stephens
88 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:29:27
Barry, I can't listen to the radio program so maybe a summary from you later? Cheers.
Barry Hesketh
89 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:38:46
Brent @88

I've just rewound it to the start of the programme, Keith Wyness has stated his thoughts about how it should have been a financial penalty for a financial breach, that the points deduction was heavy-handed, and the lack of understanding surrounding the mitigating factors has resulted in a flawed punishment.

He's hoping that, despite Everton pleading guilty to the breach, the points deduction is at the very least suspended and perhaps a fine alongside it is imposed. He also believes that FFP and Profitability and Sustainability Rules were ill-thought out as each and every club was at a different stage of development when it came to pass.

I'll follow up soon with a summary of the next guest, Mike Gow.

Martin Farrington
90 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:43:32
This link popped up on my YouTube yesterday.


Darren Gee. Career criminal. Offers up a piece of information re Bill Kenwright.

Decide for yourself.

Dale Self
91 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:45:07
Martin, “no-mark jobsworth” is top shelf.
Kevin Edward
92 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:46:47
I'm liking Andy's support for the cause. No doubt there are plenty of journalists and politicians who are sympathetic, but Andy is vocal and articulate and is probably used to speaking up for the underdogs of life.

So hopefully the club are paying attention and seeing how he is on the front foot. I agree with others that Sky, BBC, the Premier League brand etc don't really care about Everton. Looking at what happened to Wolves at Fulham, they may have an agenda there too.

Any remaining integrity in the Premier League was fast disappearing before this debacle. I'm hopeful that we can survive and move on to better things.

Brent Stephens
93 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:48:00
Many thanks, Barry.
David West
94 Posted 29/11/2023 at 19:52:34
Barry, the P&S rules are a mask to keep the aspirational clubs from gaining on the those clubs at the top.

I listened to a former FA Chairman David Bernstein on the radio basically saying it's ruining competition, ruining the aspirational clubs who could spend, have the money, but are restricted because they can't increase revenue as fast as they would like.

He advocated a way where teams could be given a period where they could spend more, making loses as long as there were guarantees in place for the financial security of the club in question.

He spoke sense; until these rules are changed, there will continue to be an increase in the gaps in income, player spending, wages and sponsorship that the big clubs can attract and spend.

The gap will only ever get bigger!!

Barry Hesketh
95 Posted 29/11/2023 at 20:07:42
Continued summary of guests on Radio Merseyside.

Daniel Ivery Birmingham City fan stated:

Birmingham had terrible owners who had damaged the club, little by little. English Football League didn't have any formal rules in place to decide punishments for breaches of financial rules. Birmingham also broke a transfer embargo by signing a player. Birmingham didn't have the financial clout to fight the deduction, so decided to accept the punishment.

The financial resources of the larger clubs means they can afford the best lawyers, acountants etc. Doesn't believe a wage cap or luxury taxes, like they have in the USA, would be accepted by most Premier League clubs. He has much sympathy with Everton fans, but doesn't think that there is a simple solution to prevent breaches of financial rules, although thinks that points reduction does have its merits.

Next up is Nial Cooper from Fair Game - 34 professional football clubs mainly from lower leagues.

Financial incentive to overspend is massive, asks What is a well-run sustainable football club? Penalties, eg, fines and points deductions haven't really worked. The stick approach hasn't changed the culture of football.

How can the TV monies etc be used to change that culture? By using the carrot method and rewarding clubs for getting things right by clubs scoring well on 80 different criteria to judge the clubs, eg, have good governance, fan and community engagement, financially sustainable, transparency etc for all the clubs in the top 92.

The CEOs, CFOs and owners would then be less inclined to be financially imprudent by gambling a club's future and might produce a sounder business model, for which they would be rewarded. Not to replace the financial awards for doing well in a particular league but to run alongside it.

Fair Game has proof of context and has an index that can be googled to see what is involved. Tranmere Rovers are one of the Fair Game clubs.

Next up is a longer segment from Mike Gow.

Rob Halligan
96 Posted 29/11/2023 at 20:10:52
Further banners and protest cards for the game at Forest on Saturday…


Chris Leyland
97 Posted 29/11/2023 at 20:51:31
Alison Brittain's response to Burnham is ludicrous.

Her claim is that there are no fixed sanctions in place because any set penalties would hinder the ability of the independent panel to consider mitigating circumstances. What a load of crap!

A court manages to have sentencing guidelines and tariffs with a starting point and can take both mitigating and aggregating factors into consideration to either reduce or increase the sentence.

There was no reason whatsoever that the Premier League couldn't have adopted this position and published it so that clubs knew the punishment for breaking P&S rules upfront and how it would impact them, just as they know upfront the punishment of a 9-point deduction for entering administration.

The very fact that the Premier League suggested a 12-point deduction in their submission makes even more of a mockery of her claim as how could they do so without knowing Everton's mitigation in our submission to the ‘independent' commission?

Also, why did they publish a sanctions framework in August outlining the punishment for P&S breaches too if their position is as Brittain claims?

Barry Hesketh
98 Posted 29/11/2023 at 21:10:56
Final part of the Radio Merseyside show on FFP, PSR and other football related financial issues.

Mike Gow, football policy expert, and a lecturer from Edge Hill University, responding to a question from a listener as to why can't football clubs just spend what they want?

Replies by saying that, during the last decade, many owners of clubs have been profligate and, unlike normal businesses, there is a value to the community and therefore require some financial restrictions, there is a social duty to keep these community assets by trying to prevent them going into administration or going out of business and thereby ceasing to exist.

Mike says that there is a bit of a misnomer which derives from Uefa's term 'financial fair play' – it is not about ensuring fair competition between clubs, it's simply about having responsible financial management and protecting clubs from entering insolvency and administration.

Mike says that a salaried worker, spending more every month than they earn, would be in trouble with FFP, even if they had a million pound in the bank and a mortgage-free home, but a worker, using credit cards and mortgaged up to the hilt, wouldn't necessarily be in breach of FFP.

FFP creates a battlefield amongst clubs that are playing catch-up that have to take risks. Leicester City, for example, couldn't continue to keep up, and ended up having to batten down the hatches. Therefore clubs such as Leicester City are between a glass ceiling and a horrific swamp.

He agrees that Keith Wyness's comment about a moat being drawn around the monied clubs when FFP came into being.

In reply to a listener who said that the fans were being punished, Mike agrees and says that the PSR rules make no reference to a sporting advantage.

The 10-point deduction imposed on Everton FC wasn't calculated to a particular formula, but was done for two reasons according to the judgement, Everton had an unquantifiable sporting advantage and that should be taken into account, and that the punishment should act as a deterrent to other clubs thinking of breaking the rules.

According to the Commission, mitigating factors were not the reason that Everton broke the limits of PSR. Mike believes that had Everton gained an extra six points for each of the three seasons in the period that Everton broke the rules, the club would not have been in breach of PSR due to the extra financial reward gained from those six extra points, e.g an extra £21m would have been earned from higher league placing.

If you gamble on finishing higher in the table and sail too close to the wind and it fails, you risk relegation due to the points deduction and possible administration, that is a reason to say that the whole PSR system is unfit for purpose as points deductions shouldn't be a method of punishment for financial mismanagement.

Mike says the people who were responsible for allowing Everton to breach the rules haven't been punished, and that it only really hurts the players and fans. He says that the Commission, the Premier League have the power to punish the individuals responsible and should have done so.

Phew! Off to give my ears and fingers a bit of rest.

Brent Stephens
99 Posted 29/11/2023 at 21:28:26
Barry, various posts. Cracking stuff summarising the BBC Radio Merseyside discussion. Thanks. A lot in there and a lot of common sense.

Chris, I can't believe the inconsistent logic in Alison Brittain's arguments! And that from the chair of the Premier League.

Martin Farrington
100 Posted 29/11/2023 at 22:36:04
Thanks Barry. Major effort 👍🏻
Dave Abrahams
101 Posted 30/11/2023 at 10:41:19
Thanks, Barry, for your considerable time and effort.
Tony Everan
102 Posted 30/11/2023 at 11:01:01
Thanks, Barry, I couldn't listen because of my deafness so really appreciate your detailed summary.
Danny O’Neill
103 Posted 30/11/2023 at 11:26:55
Sterling effort, Barry.

It's the supporters and employees being punished, not those who held responsibility and made decisions.

It shouldn't be a points decision. It should be a financial one.

It should be tasty at Forest. Be loud and proud, Blues. They can't silence it, no matter how hard they try.

Iain Latchford
104 Posted 30/11/2023 at 11:28:17
The Times are reporting that there is a second breach of PSR which could result in a further points deduction. Apparently this will be dealt with by May.

Iain Latchford
105 Posted 30/11/2023 at 11:36:22
Looks like it is a very misleading headline on further reading, so best ignored.
Alan McGuffog
106 Posted 30/11/2023 at 12:11:30
Going off on a tangent. R.I.P. Shane Macgowan. Brilliant songwriter. And bluenose.
Barry Hesketh
107 Posted 30/11/2023 at 14:03:31
To all of those above who thanked me for the Radio Merseyside summary, many, many thanks and I'm happy to have been of service to the ToffeeWeb community.
Phil Bellis
108 Posted 30/11/2023 at 14:39:41
RIP Shane MacGowan.

Interviewed re forthcoming Summer Pops appearance at the Echo Arena, 2009:

“What's the best thing about Liverpool? Everton. What's your favourite memory of Liverpool? Michael Thomas, Anfield, 1989.”

Tim Stone
109 Posted 30/11/2023 at 16:04:59
The Premier League couldn't be about to name the rights for football matches soon, could they...

Oh. I see they are. Now why have Sky gone a bit quiet on news?

Duncan McDine
110 Posted 30/11/2023 at 18:43:20
I never knew Shane MacGowan was an Evertonian. His famous song is the only Christmas song that I like - my kids think I'm one miserable sod and take the piss because most of my favourite singers/bands can't really sing (Dylan, Ian Brown, Tricky among others).

RIP and best wishes to his family - in the unlikely event that they read TW!

Dale Self
111 Posted 30/11/2023 at 18:53:20
And with that, I am even prouder to be an Evertonian, didn't think that was possible. Thanks Phil and Duncan.

He had some early stuff that was quite catchy Duncan. Nipple Erectors maybe? Anyway, RIP Shane and thanks for not drinking it all.

Duncan McDine
112 Posted 30/11/2023 at 19:03:07
I'll have to check out Nipple Erectors, but might turn on secret-mode before googling, just in case…
Pete Neilson
113 Posted 30/11/2023 at 19:32:27
Alison Brittain, Chair of the PL and “keen Man United fan” is coming out forcefully to defend the “independent Commission”.

Marvellous stuff. A modern-day Witchfinder General. The separation of Premier League and Independent Commission is looking a bit threadbare…

Neil Carter
114 Posted 01/12/2023 at 01:48:54
Clear evidence that those in power in the Premier League and its main cohort for money are shit scared of losing control and cash by silencing critics.

Talk about abuse of power and governing control and corruption

Ricky Oak
115 Posted 01/12/2023 at 05:53:37
Wish I'd read this thread before embarrassing my family with a tired baby-like rant on the other thread.

There is light being thrown on the dastardly actions of the brown envelope brigade. Thank you, Barry.

Danny O’Neill
116 Posted 01/12/2023 at 06:14:12
Ricky, don't be apologetic. We go to Nottingham tomorrow loud, clear and proud.

We are inevitably going to subject to derogatory chants, but let's face it, we've have had that since the 80s with the boring "sign on" and more recent "we pay your benefits".

We can take a few chants. We will get behind the team as always.

Si Cooper
117 Posted 02/12/2023 at 02:24:10
Rob H (55),

If Sky ‘own' the Premier League, how come they have to pay a fortune for the rights? Of course, having to pay that much should allow them to ‘market' the sport in a way that they reckon will maximise their subscriptions.

It's just capitalism at work, and bugger all to do with trying to get rid of EFC. We are just not major players anymore. It is the Premier League that are punishing us unfairly and they hold the whip hand over the broadcasters – no matter how big the broadcasters have grown.

I think the Sky output (volume muted on some of their pundits) is generally very good across a range of sports I like to watch, and find the often biasedly edited MotD highlights much less palatable.

Sky are just unfortunately synonymous with an era that has seen an ever-widening gap between certain clubs such as ours and the top rankers, but they are not the football illuminati.

I don't think they care about our club but I don't think they are actively pursuing an agenda against us.

Michael Kenrick
118 Posted 02/12/2023 at 13:11:33
Well said, Si @117.

Most sensible post on the most ridiculous of conspiracy theories — but one believed by a good number of posters if our threads are anything to go by.

Ian Bennett
119 Posted 02/12/2023 at 13:23:57

Everton vs Manchester United, so let's get in an ex Forest centre half. Seems logical to balance up with Neville and Keane...

The blues fans did it right. Would have been nice to see ex players join in with the protest.

If it was Liverpool, I am sure higher profile people would be chiming in.

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