Last-gasp Beto goal gets dire Everton out of jail

If the Friedkin takeover happens soon, will he stick with Dyche? Or will it depend on how we fare up to that point, and where we are in the Table position-wise? January windows are rarely big spending sprees and few bargains are ever unearthed.

I am always ambivalent with Dyche; on the one hand, he inherited a basket case, so I feel sorry for him there. He then produces or oversees a couple of unexpected results, so the plaudits are rightly directed at him.

He then reverts to absolute dire team selections and tactics and folds easily to opposition when you would think we were capable of achieving a result!

If a new broom is ordered by Dan Friedkin, who does he go for? A good coach or manager, if he is unused to the Premier League, is a risk from the outset. If experienced at Premier League level, why is he available?

Just like everyone else, I want the best for Everton after 30 years of below mediocrity!

I can accept that set-up away from home, sitting deep, counter-attacking, happy to take a point. At home, against mid-table sides, no, it's not acceptable.

Dyche will argue he is playing to the team's strengths and recognising its limitations. We do have some technically limited players (I don't have to name them).

We are better than what we saw yesterday and how the manager is setting the team up. We are set up to fail. Continuously on the back foot, conceding possession, and sitting back waiting for the inevitable.

We have a few games where we must pick up points before a horrible run of games follows…. It's hard watching Everton at the moment.

But it's quite possible a different manager could get a good deal less from them. We've seen a few ineffective managers over the past few seasons, with their various philosophies.

Fulham were the better team by a mile yesterday, but Silva was very poor for us. Even yesterday, his team couldn't hang on to a lead with 2 minutes to go.

I am not enjoying going to Goodison very much, haven't done for a while with a few notable exceptions. At the age of 68, I'm running out of time to see us build a great team again. But I think our best chance of doing so is by building on moving to the new stadium, in the Premier League.

And I think our best chance of doing that is by sticking rather than twisting, at least until the end of the season.

I love being inside the stadium, watching live football, but it wouldn't bother me if I never went to Goodison until the last game of the season if that is all that is going to be on offer, if I'm being honest.

There is just no entertainment value in watching us, walking back to the car I was thinking that going the game has become habitual rather than necessary.
I go match fishing as a hobby and the thought of sitting on the bank with my mates having a laugh is much more appealing.

Hopefully when the TFG, take over completes, there will be the start of a ositive transformation on all matters Everton.

It won't happen over night but gives hope for us all.

Yesterday Everton got very lucky. But a point is point, which we are grateful for.

Next week, they will have to compete and use the ball better for the full 97 minutes, at Soton.

UTFTs!

Pull yourselves together guys, it wasn't that bad.

However, I watched a Brentford team seemingly bereft of any real 'star' names playing exciting, fast, free flowing football. Frank's and Dyche, similar ages, but miles apart in how they see the game being played.

I hate the expression, 'be careful what you wish for'.

TW in July: Let's just finish comfortably mid-table (which we will) and be patient for better days ahead with new stadium, owners, players etc. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

TW in October: This is shite, Everton are shite, the manager is shite, we should be challenging for Europe.

None of this is to say I'm enjoying our football most of the time, I'm not. And I won't be spending thousands to get to Goodison one last time to watch us play this way. But I'm realistic about where we are and sticking with the July outlook. Without the Bournemouth collapse, we'd be just about exactly where I expected us to finish, and still do.

I refuse to believe that another manager would not get a better return from the players we have. Even David Moyes is a better manager than Dyche, and it pains me to even say that.

Dyche has done the job he was brought in for and I certainly thank him for that, but now he is fashioning a team around his beliefs, and I am dead set against that, the tactics are dire, the set up, team selection and tactics are akin to a team playing in league one.

We are NOT fodder for the rest of the league, I despise the lack of competitiveness by surrendering, at home, to Fulham no less (or anyone for that matter) 60% plus possession. To watch in utter disbelief the single most damming pass of the whole game, straight from the kick off, McNeil kicking the ball back to his keeper. It is the one moment that encapsulated and condemned Dyche, his style, tactics and approach. The sooner he is gone the better.

Martin, welcome back. Was that negative enough for you? Because right now I would take Duncan Ferguson back as head coach, or David Moyes, or Unsworth, or the the tea lady.. it was unpleasant to watch, not because it was necessary, but because it wasn't.

PS. I think I just got off the fence...

"I hate the expression, 'be careful what you wish for'."

Christine #17

"Because right now I would take Duncan Ferguson back as head coach, or David Moyes, or Unsworth, or the the tea lady.. "

In the meantime, I just want to watch our best team get fielded each week and a modicum of entertainment. Yesterday did not come close to the latter, hence the tone of the report.

We don't need either extreme. We're not good enough for one and we're certainly better than the other.

I feel like I've found dog shit in my McDonald's and then when I complain I get told "well you can't expect a Michelin hat meal from McDonald's". I don't believe I'm being unreasonable to expect better than this.

The first priority of every club is to stay in the division. For some clubs that will also be the full extent of their current ambition. It shouldn't be for us. We're not Ipswich.

I appreciate it is not haute cuisine fare, just one of the plethora of fast food outlets out there. Don't go to them myself but many, say it is crap food anyway !

I do question the value of possession from the back. Today Spurs did this to the extreme and lost 1-0 but on another day Eze could have really punish them. It seems incredibly risky to do what Spurs do from a goal kick when opponents mark the defenders man fo man. For every two times you play through the press you must create panic when it goes wrong. But Postogoglou is convinced this is the best way for Spurs to play. They went out and bought Solanke who was very successful at Bournemouth on receiving balls from the defence and bringing others into play. But they don’t seem to be playing to his strengths.
If you don’t play out from the back what options do you have? Well the Dyche method is to boot the ball towards DCL and see what he can do with it. Recently not much. It reminds me of how rugby was or is played. Gaining ground but losing possession at the throw in has better odds than trying to run or pass it through the middle of the field. Unless you have quality of runners and passes to cut through the defensive line.

Dyche is no tactical fool no matter how annoying it was yesterday when DCL seemed to lose every ball up against Diop and and co. But when Beto was joined by Keane suddenly we looked a different team. When Dyche managed Burnley he always played with a big striker such as Wood but he was closely, joined by others who picked up the pieces around him. Why then doesn’t Dyche try this with us? This may sound stupid but if football was 12 aside he would play two upfront but it isn’t so who sacrifice to put two up from the start? He always wants to play two out and out defensive midfielders. His recent twist with the addition of Ndiaye is playing McNeil in the number 10 spot and push Doucoure back into central midfield. Duke may not be blessed with outstanding ball skills but he can get up and down better than anyone else plus he is a good stopper in front of the back four.
So playing it long from Pickford who until recently was quite accurate is option number 2. What then is option number 3? I would say gaining possession around half way line without playing it out from the back. If you had two outstanding wing or full backs who could get possession in a safe way maybe from a quick throw from the goalkeeper but that seems to have gone out of the game. Plus Pickford is not the greatest thrower and he just loves to boot it!
So in my humble opinion it depends on the quality of player you have and their strengths mean you don’t have to piss around at the back or play rugby!

Personally, I believe you can't lose the ball in a bad spot if you don't have it in the first place. Less possession!

We are as good as more than half the teams in the league, yet "Parking the bus" wins you little or nothing. Giving up to 74% of possession against the team at the bottom of the league (Southampton) was a case in point. As the old adage goes, they can't score from their penalty box. We only have to make one mistake in our half / box and we are a goal down..every time..

I do not expect to play open football against the top teams but we aren't doing it against the bottom teams either.

What I see Mike, is Dyche building a team in his own image and I don't like it. It condemns us to the lower half of the league.

I even remember Allardyce's Blackburn beating us. Their plan was to all sit back while we had possession in front of a crowded penalty area and then when they won a free kick anywhere they sent half the team forward and gambled on scrapping something. It was horrible, but it was a plan.

Saturday (and beyond) was just a case of wellying it because we had no idea what else to do. You could see the frustration in Pickford as the ball kept coming back to him (I'd prefer he hid that a bit to be honest).

I'm definitely not suggesting we should invite teams forward by moving the ball around in defence. We don't have those players. Very few teams do.

I'll happily see some ugly football. Long ball with a second forward (not Doucoure) picking up the pieces will do me just fine - it's at least a plan. Mind you, I still believe our side is more suited to a more balanced approach.

And we'll just have to differ on whether we are "as good as more than half the teams in the league." I believe our overall talent level is maybe 15th, our team speed ranks maybe 18th, and our ability to score goals is dead last except for Saints -- nobody in the EPL creates fewer chances, even Wolves are more dangerous. We have two players who could start for most other teams, our keeper and our 22-year-old centerback. We have only one player with true pace, Jarrad, and only two who can shoot the ball in McNeil and Ndiaye. (Okay, Keane makes three.)

So I have exactly the opposite view of Dyche. I think that for two years now his organizational skills have enabled us to regularly OUTperform, not UNDERperform, our squad talent. And I think we'll get out of the bottom half of the league when our talent is worthy of it. Not from Dyche having us play more positively than our talent will tolerate.

I don't enjoy watching “Dycheball” but I've seen enough football to realize it's an effective strategy to get the most out of a poor squad. We have a poor squad in terms of both quality and quantity. Therefore I have to back up my boy Gaynes in this debate.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin feeds on scraps from the wings, Harrison cannot cross to save his life, he is in the team because of his workrate.

McNeil is better in the centre than out on the wing, but even that is relative. We have a full-back who either can't overlap or won't (Mykolenko tries but Digne he isn't).

So yes, I agree with you, we are short on quality... but are we getting the best out of what we have got?

Take the last game, he played Branthwaite and moved Keane up front when the smart play was to partner Calvert-Lewin with Beto. (Keane was only moved up front because he didn't want to take off Keane, in my opinion.)

My "Park the Bus" comment is exactly what it says, we let the opposition have the ball in 2/3rd of the pitch and have usually 10 players behind the ball in the final third, I think that's a pretty apt description.

We lose possesion or give the ball away, don't win second balls, up to the final third. Our delivery into the box is shocking, our lack of creativity in the middle of the park is numbing.

Possession isn't everything; some games you have more than others, but that's not Everton. We set up and play with the intention of being defensive… not losing – rather than trying to win.

I do not agree with your analysis of our position; I believe we could and should easily be mid-table and certainly should be at the end of the season.

Mike, my issue is I don't see progress, I see regression. Worse still, many think that's still okay as long as we survive.

Mike, I am frustrated, fed up with the whole thing... it's not as if Dyche doesn't have form; you should go back and see the Burnley fans' views – identical to all we have said – right down to the "noise" quotes!

Any other manager in our history, any other manager, would have been sacked if they played this way… If it wasn't for Moshiri being AWOL, so would he.

We exited one player who challenged for a first team spot - Onana - and added six players who are in contention to start when fit - Broja, Ndiaye, Tim Iro, Mangala, Lindstrom, O’Brien. The summer signings represent a significant improvement in squad quality.

The argument now seems to be pivoting to 1) the players we signed were poor - ignoring their quality overall in the last 3 years 2) they are speculative signings - not the case with Broja, Ndiaye, Tim Iro and Lindstrom who have been long-term club targets 3) Net spend dictates success - someone should tell Man Utd and Brighton.

Possession isn’t everything. It becomes everything when the team constantly squanders the low possession it enjoys. More broadly, it is unacceptable for Everton to only enjoy 26% possession against Soton (1 draw and 8 defeats in 9 league games this season). Everton and Southampton each had 4 shots on target that game. The difference? We were the home team playing against a side who have scored 6 league goals all season.

I was (I am) a supporter of Sean Dyche, but these excuses need to end now. He needs to get improved performances from the better squad at his disposal.

I'm not especially worried about possession (and Southampton keep the ball well but to little effect) but being able to keep the ball a bit better at times helps you manage games and find different ways of getting at the opposition.

Dyche outperformed last season and deserves credit for that. This season has been less convincing so far with some better players at his disposal though to be fair the injury frequency has not helped.

Fulham style of play is what you would expect of Silva : midfield support, long ball and predominately Wing attack.Right wing in this case.

The Everton Analysis was simply "No Specific Style of play.'

My interpretation of Dycheball as a defend deep attack on the break was I therefore concluded as being a misnomer.

Dycheball is just send out the team to defend Hodge podge as best they can.Being deep is not a consideration. In a game the other team will go out of the game for periods, so Everton get forward.The attack is more improvisation than tactical.Maybe someone will get on the ball and get a shot away.That is the sum of Dyches attack options.

It then made sense that without purpose Subs are just to cover injuries and wind down the clock.If they need a last quarter effort everyone just gets of their ass's to do something, including Dyche

I will let you make up your mind about passing and possession in this scenario.

I know, Dyche gets £5million a year for that !!!!

Pickford
Patterson
Mykolenko
Branthwaite
Tarkowski
Mangala
Garner
McNeil
Ndiaye
LIindstrom
Calvert-Lewin / Broja

Injuries have obviously disrupted this a lot – and maybe some new signings taking time to acclimatise too (as many summer signings are at other clubs).

It doesn't excuse some of the awful performances or capitulations etc but it does explain why we continue to struggle to some extent. As good or hard-working as players like Keane, Young, Gueye, Doucoure and Harrison have been, their limitations hold us back.

Hopefully we get a chance to see the theoretical team in practice once the players are ready and fit – with more minutes to young players like Iroegbunam, Armstrong, Dixon and Chermiti too. That gives us the basis of a decent squad over a decent period.

And hopefully Friedkin gives up a bit of money to recruit in January too. A high quality right-back would be my first pick. There's a few out there.

Saying that, I'm confident we'll stay up (even if Dyche sees out the season) but this can't be our future, ie, dire football and constantly struggling to survive.

It's almost 9 years since Moshiri became the owner. And it is without doubt the worse experience in my almost 60 years watching the club. Nothing even comes close.

I'am just going through the motions now, hopeful that the new owners can change it for the better. Sorry for the gloom. But what we're watching is non-football.

Re that team, I'm hoping Patterson can eventually be a good pick for right-back he's got the potential. Mylolenko is a big worry for me at the moment: I thought he has been very poor all season and his heading ability has always been poor.

I like James Garner, and Orel Mangala could be a good loan signing but I would never leave Gana Gueye out of midfield. Is Lindstrøm going to get his act together – especially as a winger?

Makes you realise what a job it is for Dyche having to select his team every week. No, I wouldn't mind the job for the money he is on either, but it is still a headache and all about opinions.

I think we all know what a terrible position Everton have been placed in by people who have been in charge of the club and it will take a few seasons to get us back to where we were 30 bleedin' years ago.

Guardiola, Klopp, Arteta, Mourinho would struggle.

Mind you, they would not take the job in the first place.
It would be good in football, if these top managers had to show if they could produce the goods with empty pockets.

I think we all know the answer.

That would sort the good from the bluffers... Oh, and in every January window, clubs could trade managers.

Boy would that be fun... radical but it would end an awful lot of bullshit and add a bit of spice!

Some posters have said we are no more than an alehouse team; I would suggest those teams who were labelled as such showed more aggression and more adventure than we do.

From minute 1, as always, we surrender possession and territory, irrespective who the opposition is.

Our main plan of attack is for Pickford or Tarkowski to launch the ball towards Calvert-Lewin who has no one near him and, even when he does get control, which isn't often, he loses possession, which seems a common trait for a few in this side.

Dyche said after the game "We weren't at it today." Agreed… in which case, why did it take you so long to make any changes?

Watching Everton at the moment is not a very easy watch, and no wonder the crowd have difficulty getting behind a team who play so negatively.

The only time the crowd got excited was when Keane was thrown forward to partner Beto, and our fullbacks were allowed to get forward. At last, with the clock running down, even Dyche realised he has to change something other than like-for-like players.

The team came alive, as did the fans, and thankfully a lovely cushioned volley by Young gave Beto a chance to steal an unlikely point.

I can understand Beto's frustration; he must think the guy playing in his position is really struggling. Also added to the fact that Calvert-Lewin wants away from the club and Beto gets no time on the pitch.

Also, you have to ask why the fans have a much greater empathy with Beto than they do with Calvert-Lewin? I am not saying Beto should start every game but, with Broja and Chermiti still not fit, surely he deserves more game time than he gets at present?

Finally, can someone tell me why Harrison is selected every week? He loses possession 90% of the time, he very rarely goes past anyone. He has scored 3 goals since he has been here, even Gana has scored as many.

Even defensively, Harrison isn't that good, so can someone tell Dyche a front 3 player is there primarily to score and assist; Harrison does neither.

Look, if he doesn't fancy Lindstrøm, then maybe do something revolutionary and play 3 midfield players.

For us to become a Top 10 side again, players of the standard of Garner, Gueye and Patterson probably need to be options from the bench rather than starters. <:>They are okay but wouldn't improve a team like Leicester for example.

We are at best seen as a stepping stone for the up-and-coming, or a rest home, final pay packet for those in their twilight.

The last time we had a quality manager in Ancelotti was the only time quality players wanted to come to the club. Can you imagine any high-level international player wanting to play for Dyche?

It probably will only happen as a clean sweep: new owner, new stadium, new manager, new players, new hope. All we have to do is bite on this leather strap when the pain gets too much. 6 months to go... I so want this last season at Goodison to be memorable – not forgettable.

I think you underrate James Garner and Gana Gueye. Patterson is not ready yet and there are more in Everton's squad who are not as good as Garner and Gueye which tells you, although like many you don't need telling, how poor this squad is.

I sympathise with Dyche but at times, Saturday was definitely one, he doesn't help himself with his selections and his timings of substitutions.

On Saturday, I think most of the crowd wanted Doucoure and Harrison to come off a lot earlier than he chose to do; the same with Keane and Branthwaite, one going centre-back and the other going upfront – no surprise whatsoever.

I do agree that we're not going to sign any top-level ready-made players any time soon either – in fact, even top players at other middling clubs like Mbeumo and Gibbs-White are out of reach financially – and they are not ready-made Champions League standard and may fall just a touch short over the course of their careers.

However, we are completely mistaken if we think that there is any chance of ready-made success – ie, leaping from perennial relegation candidates to genuine Top 6 (or even Top 8) contenders in one fell swoop. It isn't possible.

That's because the ready-made players we can afford and who are interested in joining, aren't good enough to play for Top 6 sides. That is the big lesson from the Moshiri years (and not exactly rocket science either).

What we can do is build a side over a period of 3 to 5 years which is ready for a sustainable period of Top 6 to Top 8 finishes, European adventures, and cup runs.

We absolutely can sign players for that purpose, who can be really important players for us over a period of 5 to 10 years. Some will leave, some will stay. That's no big deal. Every player is replaceable (or should be provided the club is not deeply thick about long-term recruitment strategy and player development).

The next few seasons will, I am afraid, be a disappointing means to an end but hopefully we can use it all as an opportunity to build some decent foundations in the academy, the scouting network, and our use of affiliate clubs for loans etc. I can see some good work being done already here and hopefully it ramps up even further under the Friedkins.

It will be worth it, however. And indeed failure to do this will just perpetuate the relegation battles as we watch low-quality players on high wages continue to disappoint.

But Steve, being as knowledgeable and as balanced as ever, is on the money when stating that this squad at his disposal is now vastly superior to the one he had to work with last season.

It is my opinion that Dyche actually flourished under the absolutely chaotic nature of the club with the abnormal extremities no manager should or would normally have to deal with.

Many managers would have crumbled, but I believe these events actually galvanised both Dyche and the club and therefore helped motivate the players to produce a siege mentality and achieve results they would not have been normally able to without this madness. His strong leadership made him undoubtedly a huge asset to the club.

This season, however, the club has become a lot more stable and now we are seeing Dyche's limitations being exposed bare.

His devotion to his favourites irrelevant of performance, his bizarre substitutions and lack of understanding of what was required to manage a game, his outdated football methods, his lack of detail and preparation for games, and his continuous repeated mantras are exposing what a limited manager he is and explains where he operates as he does at the bottom of the table.

Some have used the excuse of injuries as a contributing factor and losing a player of Branthwaite's quality would no doubt be a huge loss to anyone. However, to take 9 points from 9 games considering the depth he now has at his disposal and against some of the poorest teams in the Premier League (we are yet to play a Top 7 side) is truly abysmal.

What's more worrying is that some points were very fortuitous while others were sacrificed by Dyche's ineptitude and intransigence.

Personally, I don't feel ToffeeWebbers will need to fall out over this manager as I have no doubt he will be gone by Christmas. The next three fixtures would probably need to yield close to maximum points considering the December we face for Dyche to maintain his job which is a huge ask.

Conversely, Wolves have had a horrendous fixture schedule and there is no doubt they will rapidly climb the table, which will invite further pressure onto Dyche.

Moreover, I am confident that the new ownership will part ways with Dyche immediately, irrespective of results, as no ownership will tolerate how Sean operates in terms of the assets being supplied to him.

Out of Thelwell's acquisitions this summer, only Ndiaye has become a regular and he has had to perform miraculously to do so. But, as we have seen in the Bournemouth debacle, he is still one of the first to be expendable, even when he should be the last.

Dyche has proved incapable of working within a modern football structure and his inflexibility will be a huge turn-off for incoming owners who aren't going to fork out millions only to see those assets wasting on the bench.

I think you could put him in most teams in the Premier League without dropping the standard. He's been one of our most consistent performers over his time here and I reckon is one of the first names on the team sheet when available.

Or all much of a muchness?

'Fuck all that, where's the entertainment?' though is the cry, as we go five unbeaten, and silence those who were calling for his sacking a fortnight ago.

And let's not forget, when we were playing pretty good stuff, like against Bournemouth and Brighton, and got picked off…Were people saying "It's not about the result, I'm happy to see good football"? No, they were not.

Even Alan Shearer, a striker I hated when he played against us as he was just so good, and a player who knows more about being a striker than anybody on here, has weighed in in support of Calvert-Lewin.

Basically said what some of us on here can see, that he needs support up top and we don't play to his strengths.

Don't mention the one-on-ones as I watched the best striker in Europe (IMHO) at the weekend fail to score what plenty on here would call a relatively straight forward one-on-one. He's "missed" half a dozen or so in the last four or five games too.

Sam (50), I thought Gana was our best player on Saturday.

Conor (49), The notion this season's squad is ‘vastly superior' to last season's is an overstatement. It has improved, especially with the addition of Ndiaye in attack.

But Lindstrøm has yet to convince anybody he is a Premier League player; Mangala is hardly an upgrade on Onana; Broja is not yet available; and O'Brien may be one for the future.

Iroegbunam started well but has much to learn in terms of positional play; again, he may be one for the future. With the injuries, notably to Branthwaite and Garner, the squad has been below optimum strength, forcing Dyche to make do and mend.

I can't agree about Gana, he is even at his age the best midfielder at the club by a country mile. He is being asked to play in a 2-man midfield, which by itself is a big ask. If Dyche would play 3 midfield players, maybe Mangala, Gana and Iroegbunam, we would have a better balanced side.

Also, who would fancy playing in a 2-man midfield with Doucoure? This team is better than they are showing because of Dyche's negative game plan.

I would play 4-3-3 with Ndaiye and McNeil playing a lot closer to Calvert-Lewin or Beto or Broja when fit. A bit like Klopp played with Mane and Salah close to Firmino in a front 3.

I want Everton to be the best that they can be in every game, and if Saturday was an example of the 'best we can be', it isn't going to be a very enjoyable final campaign at Goodison Park.

I'm not expecting pretty flowing football for 90+ minutes, but I wasn't expecting to see that our sole tactic would be to lump it up to the big man and hope for the best either.

I watch other clubs in our price range who do get the ball down and try to play the game in a recognisable fashion, who attack with passion and belief, and I just don't see that at Goodison, save for the desperate last few minutes last Saturday.

I'll continue to attend the games but I will sit there with gritted teeth, and hope that the pragmatists are right and we end the season with our Premier League place intact, but the mental health of our fans might need yet more sessions with some very able therapists.

I agree with that.

We need a snappy title for "whatever isn't on pitch (player or style) is the answer" – until that player plays or the style is changed.

Bit mad really.

In fact, I am not saying he brought in a host of players, just that his name and reputation made the difference with some. As opposed to Sean Dyche who would (probably has) put prospective players off.

I consider, even with changes of players and management, it would take a minimum of 3 seasons to get into Europe, but change has to start and only if and when we have new owners.

It looks positive atm but, until the feet are under the table, I will be at unease. We are not out of the woods and whilst the new owner may look attractive, we are that punch drunk, even 777 Partners looked good…

I doubt his remit stretches any further than to just keep us in the Premier League. How he does that is immaterial. A few more months of primitive percentage football is a small price to pay for the nearest thing this club will ever get to a blank canvas. A fresh start.

Somebody else will lead us come late spring when we take our first tentative steps towards the promised land. In the meantime, we are still in a struggle caused by others long before Dyche even got here. We don't have to like his tactics to support him.

As things stand now – would he get into a Forest team ahead of Danilo? Or a Brentford team ahead of Norgaard? Or a Leicester team ahead of Ndidi (whom many of us really wanted here this summer)? I guess people will debate that but I don't see him as an upgrade on these players if I take off my blue-tinted spectacles.

What I don't think there is much debate about is whether he would get in a First XI for the likes of Spurs, Villa, Newcastle, West Ham and Brighton – who will probably make up the top 10 this season alongside the usual Sky darlings. He just wouldn't.

Which is why I say that to get to the top 10 and beyond, we need better than Garner and Gueye in the First XI – and probably Mangala too.

He must start. Beto did more in 10 minutes than Dom did in 80 I was quite impressed. (Is that a sign of how low things have gotten?)

We all love a big heart and someone who tries their best. This is Everton!! The Stracq was fookin shite but we all loved him and we finished higher than we have recently. Heart goes a loooooooooong way around these parts!!!

Beachy Head is a popular spot and not too far away, although I wouldn't advise walking it there from Southampton. :-)

More chance of Nelson getting his eye back, mate. Dyche making changes would be a surprise for most, whether needed or not!

"Beto to batter a championship defense"? Just like he did in the Cup match recently?

Now I'm not Beto's biggest fan, I think he's a very limited footballer, and despite his goal on Saturday, I still think playing Calvert-Lewin better suits our one-dimensional style of play.

It's no coincidence we looked more threatening when we pushed up players closer to our attackers. Why not try that from the start, and give Dominic some help?

Oh, and Branthwaite must start the next game.

Gana played for PSG who could afford the very best, your argument of would he get in this or that side and your conclusion he wouldn't is your subjective choice.

As for the choice between McCarthy and Gana no contest and you think Carsley is better than Gana.

My question to you is would PSG sign any of the midfield players you mention? And the answer is a big No.

The stats from Saturday are 4 tackles won rank 1st, 28 carries rank 1st 10,728 metres covered rank 1st. For me, he should be the first name on the team sheet, and I don't consider Garner, Doucoure, Mangala or Iroegbunam.

Our tactic on Saturday wasn't originally to lump it up. We tried to play it out of the back for more than half the game. The tactic was a disaster. Fulham prepared for it and used their speed to press us with great intensity.

Every time Harrison got the ball, he was double-teamed against the touchline. Same with Ndiaye, except he was able to dribble through tiny spaces a few times and get out of trouble.

When Doucoure or Gana received the ball, they found an opponent coming from each side and could not turn, could only play the ball back.

Mykolenko and Tarkowski both committed huge errors under pressure -- Mykolenko twice in 10 minutes -- and it was only luck and poor finishing that saved us from those blunders becoming goals.

Dyche finally told his team to stop playing short out of the back and lump it up to Dom. There was no other option.

We all agree the priority is to stay in the Premier League, and Colin #59 is right that attractive tactics aren't necessary for that. We gotta do what we gotta do, no matter how miserable it looks. This game was an example of that.

If Calvert-Lewin doesn't convert soon, then I guess we'll get Beto from the start again, and we will all see, as we did last time, just what an incredibly limited footballer he is. Love his attitude, commitment etc but it is nowhere near enough at this level.

He can make an impact in the last 10 minutes, with energy, enthusiasm, bouncing around… but he can't trap, hold a ball, pass etc. So, isolated as our forward (whoever) is, it just comes back at us, over and over.

Calvert-Lewin is not a clinical finisher, but his contribution as a footballer is way beyond Beto's, in my humble opinion.
If Beto gets a chance and proves me wrong, then I'll be delighted to hold my hand up…

C'mon with this. Gana over McCarthy every day of the week.

Agree, Mike, because I remember saying to the people around me at half-time that our tactics would have been perfect if we had the players to carry them out!

Nothing wrong with playing out from the back if you have got the players but, when a team go as deep as Everton did on Saturday, it's usually because the players aren't comfortable in possession. Although the counter-argument is Man City, who have got players who can pass the ball in their sleep!

There's always other options, Mike (although possibly not with the starting positions of our defenders?) and I remember when Michael Keane put a nice up and under down the throat of the Fulham defence just before half-time, and commenting that this type of ball should be played at least 5 times a game.

Not the long flat straight ball that is easy for central defenders, especially if it's not controlled by the centre-forward and runs through to the keeper (which was a constant in the second half on Saturday) but a spinning up and under which always puts defenders in a lot more trouble.

We got a very fortunate draw and hopefully Dyche can draw a line under such a poor performance because we won't get many more points playing like that if we don't.

Yes to both questions.

I have also been assuming (and hoping – albeit with a healthy dose of gratitude) that he and Doucoure would be released this coming summer – but maybe they both have another season in them?

With a better squad, our priority now should be to exceed the points haul that would have earned us 12th spot.

That is the minimum standard, as I am sure Sean Dyche (and TFG) both recognise.

And I liked that Keane ball too. He did it again early in the second half. Unfortunately, he was the only player on the field capable of delivering such a ball, at least until Jarrad came off the bench.

It's a yes from me regarding getting into those two midfield — especially the second one — I couldn't stand Carsley!

Last season, we had a major problem scoring goals with only Calvert-Lewin and Doucoure as regular contributors. From the wide areas between McNeil and Harrison, we managed 5 goals all season. When these players needed replacing, Young and Patterson were often the go-to men.

Ndiaye has already notched 2 goals in effectively 7 matches (in terms of minutes played) by himself. This is a huge upgrade. Allowing McNeil to move inside has also helped him become more productive by matching last season's entire tally hitherto.

You feel Jesper Lindstrom is not going to be an asset or a Premier League player but I would beg to differ. Lindstrom is direct, technical, has an eye for a goal, and has pace which frightens defenders as well as game intelligence. We don't have any other player in the squad with his skillset.

On Saturday, his introduction saw the Fulham defence retreat as they were frightened of his pace. He is a Number 10 being forced to play wide and so he often latches himself in between the full-back and centre-back so he can get himself into goalscoring positions.

The Fulham equaliser was the perfect case in point. Once Ndiaye got the ball, Lindstrom drove inside, taking Robinson with him and allowing Young to overlap unmarked. When Young strikes the ball, there are two men on Lindstrom not knowing whose responsibility he is. That goal wouldn't have happened had Harrison still been on the pitch.

In terms of Onana, I totally agree with you that he is a much superior player than Mangala; however, Dyche had a different view, often playing the odd man out in the three options available. Mangala is still a top-level player who was regularly preferred by Tedesco over Tielemans at the heart of the Belgian midfield.

The signing of the aforementioned attackers means Dyche now has the option of 5 very decent choices in central midfield with Doucoure, Mangala and Ireogbunam competing with last season's preferred duo of Garner and Gueye and a lot of different skill sets to tailor to each opponent. Both overall quality and squad depth in this area have greatly improved.

John, you then go on to repeat the Dyche mantra when leaving out Branthwaite and Onana last season that they were young, lacked Premier League know-how and ones for the future when referring to Jake O'Brien. Branthwaite only got his chance previously when no other central defenders were available.

Have you been on the training pitch to come to this conclusion? Certainly O'Brien's performances at Lyon and preseason, where he was arguably our best player, gave no indication of him being a long way off what is required at this level.

To suggest that this squad is not considerably stronger and that the injuries to Garner and Branthwaite are understandable reasons for a 9-point tally when we have played 6 out of the current bottom half of the table, which obviously includes us, is perhaps why there seems this Munchausen by proxy Syndrome affliction permeating throughout our fanbase at the moment.

Every other team is brilliant – we are very sick and, the shitter he makes us, the more we need him as we can't survive without him.

I am so onboard with that.

Well in, that man!

I agree with you that he is a Number 10, rather than a wide player, but if Fulham's defence retreated, I thought it was because we put Keane up front alongside Beto.

I hope Lindstrom gets a chance to show us he is a decent Number 10, because my own opinion, when I've watched him, is that he doesn't really fancy it on the wing.

I watched the 3-minute highlights again (gluten for punishment that I am) and I thought Ashley Young showed all his experience, starting out very wide and just carrying on his clever run into the box, without breaking stride (this will have helped him stay so composed, imo) so that's who I gave most of the credit to.

That's why there's plenty of goals late on and in extra time; teams behind might as well throw everything forward – they are going to lose anyway if they don't score.

From what little I've seen of him this season, that assessment was correct. He has no love for the physical battles on the touchline or scorching up the wing for crosses. To me, he looks like he would be most effective in the #10 or #8 slot, whatever you call it.

And if McNeil's knee injury keeps him out this weekend, I would very much like to see Dyche give Lindstrom that spot to operate.

He only started 2 games for Napoli so I suspect his issue there was possibly one of consistent minutes rather than incorrect positioning.

It will be interesting to see whether Dyche uses him more or he goes the way of Danjuma who I think he underused.

Harrison seems as worried by the problems the American will cause him and all game was within 5 yards goal side, whether we were on the attack or defending. He never stretched him on the outside or went inside him, meaning he had to beat him to get any joy.

Lindstrom's half chance came about because he drifted inside, Ndiaye came wide right, played in Mangala who laid it off for his deflected shot. Fulham were very deep and this was before Branthwaite was on the pitch.

On another occasion, he wanted a pass from Mangala where he was inside Robinson who tracked his run the whole way.

While I totally agree with both yourself and Mike on how he should be best deployed, and his limitations which you both speak of, he does at least offer a threat in behind with his movement and intelligence as opposed to the easy to play against Harrison who is constantly face on, asks no questions, puts little fear into the defender, and therefore relies on a piece of brilliance or a pinpoint cross – neither of which he really excels at.

Incidentally, Tony, I wasn't taking anything away from Ndiaye, Young or Beto – just highlighting what attributes he brings to the team.

He hasn't looked like he has wanted to run in the two games I've watched him at Goodison but, when he instinctively came inside on Saturday, he hit a very good positive pass out to our other wing and this is what I'm basing my judgment on.

I can't agree with that first paragraph, Conor, because as I've just said, it didn't look like Lindstrom really wanted to run.

When I look at our current set-up, then other than playing with wingbacks, which I'm not sure suits us just yet, I'd honestly play Doucoure out wide, purely for his stamina and physicality, plus it keeps him away from the middle of the pitch!

I sympathise with your frustration, but better squad?

I think it's worth pointing out that, since Sean Dyche came, we have brought in £153M and paid out £79M. Thats a minus spend of £74M.

Then there are the players who have stayed. I can't remember a defensive unit that has gotten old all at the same time like this one.

When Tarkowski backed off so far that he showed Iwobi both posts, it was a sure fire sign that he knows he can be done for pace. Seamus and Keane have known for years that they too can be done for pace. Poor old Ashley probably can't remember when he couldn't be done for pace (it was probably against Everton though).

People look at players playing into their late 30s as the norm, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Unfortunately our defenders all look past their best. To me they look like they are playing solely on experience and know-how.

Dyche has had a simp!e choice. Does he throw in younger players like Dixon and O'Brian and hope they can swim? Or does he stick with his creaking old warriors in the belief that they still have enough about them to keep us away from potential catastrophe?

We already have the answer to that question. He knows that by playing the players mentioned, they will not squeeze the play and that we will continue to surrender ground, initiative and possession – possibly in every game.

It's clearly a price he is willing to pay. Rightly so in my opinion.

I said on the other thread, Dyche is not going to suddenly develop a better style of play is he? He would have done it by now, he would have done it at Burnley, so why continue to complain about it? We knew what we were getting. (I know not everyone is complaining by the way, but it's like Groundhog Day sometimes.)

Dyche did a good job in keeping us afloat last season, more than a good job. He gets a strong pass from me for managing that utter shit-show of a situation with something approaching aplomb.

This season, his tactical limitations are becoming increasingly exposed. I don't for a minute believe he is the long term solution for us, but I hope he repeats his feat of keeping us in the league for another season, even if it is ugly as hell.

I don't like his football, but if he gets enough points on the board, good enough for now. Sorry if that sounds like 'glass ceiling' talk, but that's just where we are as a club at the moment.

I think he deserves a little bit more respect than he gets on here at times; that doesn't mean I'm defending his style of play.

To the poster who said they'd rather have Duncan Ferguson. Really? To quote John McEnroe, you cannot be serious. You really can't.

Ten Hag is available anyway.

I just don't want to see him out on the touchline battling for the ball. He won't win it, and it's a waste of time.

Jimmy #87, nobody sneers louder than I do at the idea of Ferguson ever managing here, but I do have to say that 71 from 53 at a doomed club, working without a salary, is actually a very creditable managing performance. He lost only 16 games at Caledonian. And being sacked by the administrators is nothing to be ashamed of.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him managing somewhere else in Scotland next year.

He has a game plan and formation which rarely changes – no matter who the opposition is – and he continues to force players to fit that plan, regardless of the fact that certain players cannot adapt their game to suit those tactics and the result is that they are cruelly exposed. Lindstrom being a perfect example. Dyche's deployment of him, does not play to his strengths.

In instances where we've freely passed the short ball at pace through the middle (when Doucouré hasn't been playing), it's evident that the quality is there. If the end product had been a little sharper, we would have been much further up the table by now.

So why not play Beto out wide instead of Jack? Calvert-Lewin doing what he does well being joined with Beto on breakaways and available for corners and free kicks into the box. Might it be worth a try out coming on for Jack with half-an-hour to go.

Beto is on less wages. He is not fully paid for and is still worth his transfer fee on the open market. Dyche's substitution policy is appalling as far as developing Beto's play at Everton, but is part of not needing change in Dyche's no specific style of Everton. It is more 'get through the game' than tactical. Other than do a reasonable job in a player's position and commit to training, there is no progression in play beyond that. Get through undefeated is the priority in Dycheball.

So Beto's frustration will continue. He is not going to replace Calvert-Lewin as the first-choice centre-forward, unless circumstances dictate.