Thelwell and Dyche are not really doing a good job for Everton

Same with Calvert-Lewin, on his lonesome in every game. Even James Garner looks disillusioned with this horrible football.

But don't you think maybe some of this is down to the money (or lack of) available to Dyche and Thelwell?

I get you don't like Dyche but some stuff is complete bullshit that you say.

What on earth has James Garner achieved or done at 23 in his career to be disillusioned with the style of football under Dyche? Are we talking about Andrea Iniesta here?

A modest half-decent player that we gave a chance to from the Championship and I've never actually heard Garner complain about the style of football at Everton?

I ain't a massive Dyche fan but who gets the gig here?

We've had the excitement of Martinez the wonderful gung-ho can't defend football, we've sacked him.

We've had the promising Marco Silva, sacked him.

We've had Carlo walk out as soon as the lights started glittering on bigger stages.

Who comes here that the fans are patient with?

Who comes here that won't get sacked like all the others?

I'm not suggesting either are necessarily world-class or even top-class operatives but they have brought a degree of stability and continuity and logic to Everton where absolute chaos was ruling before.

Even players like Beto, who may not be the most talented, is a pretty good match for what Calvert-Lewin brings to a team.

Despite inheriting a real shit-show, they have kept us up whilst cutting the wage bill and hopefully we will be set for a season of mid-table mediocrity before we push on in the new stadium.

The only thing that I beg to differ on is Thelwell's speed on reducing the payroll, but our deadwood has been so horrific that not even a World Class DoF (like Monchi or Ashworth) can clean them up in a quicker manner!

I still disagree with every word.

I had serious doubts about Dyche during that months-long losing run – coupled with his last months at Burnley. But he proved me wrong.

As for Thelwell, his worst signing was Ruben Vinagre, a loanee. Chelsea spent a billion and saw no improvement.

Exponentially, the cheaper the signing, the less likelihood of success. Thelwell is operating with peanuts. He has done a better job than Walsh or Brands with offloading deadwood and bringing in a few quid.

His incomings are tough to judge because he's shopping in Poundland. So you may be correct… but I'm inclined to think you're being unduly critical given the circumstances.

Many games I've watched we would dominate teams if only we could master the basics of ball control and passing the ball and then creating space to receive it again.

Dyche has done an incredible job keeping us up. The points deductions would have affected the players and Sean dragged them up and got them to fight back. I'd have liked to have kept Richarlison and Gordon but we needed the money. I'd like to drive a Ferrari but I can't afford one!

Thelwell has done a good job to date and will control build us slowly whilst we have to stay on the right side of the rules. There is a bit of dead wood remaining as these are poor players on big money who won't get a big payday elsewhere so they will stay put. That is no one's fault other than the managers or DoFs who signed them.

Good football will follow as the team improves. If it doesn't, then Sean will no doubt move on but now is not the time. We have to have Premier League football to exploit the commercial potential of the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and need stability rather than get another manager who might not have a clue.

"Thelwell and Dyche are not really doing a good job for Everton"?

When I read that title, I felt the need to address the points made, because I felt it was shallow and dishonest. So let's go…

"Kevin Thelwell is just an average Director of Football as every decision he has made and brought in players, it's expected each one in the Premier League is capable."

Nobody has a 100% success rate. Look at Chelsea. They spent a billion quid. They're no better. Look at Moyes at Everton – he may have signed Pienaar, Arteta, etc., but there was also Van der Meyde, Bilyaletdinov, Krøldrup, etc.

Furthermore, no other Director of Football has had to try and assemble a quality playing squad under the dual constraints of PSR issues and trying to move on mediocre players who were given absurdly generous contracts by his predecessors.

"I don't rate Sean Dyche at all. He doesn't learn; he only knows defensive football and doesn't make subs. Why? Probably because he has no idea."

Different coaches have different playing styles, often based upon the players at their disposal. Do you think that some attacking manager will do better with our squad? Laughable take. The trend has been downward (both in player quality and results) since Carlo Ancelotti left. The only manager to buck that trend has been Sean Dyche.

"He has done well to bring Calvert-Lewin on as many of us thought Dom was finished. This is why I think he will do well with Dele Alli."

Unlike the aforementioned managers, Sean Dyche actually took the time to try and fix Dom's injury problems, rather than simply getting him 35% fit (as Benitez and Lampard did), exacerbating his problems.

It may well be that he will, and has done so, with Dele Alli. Time will tell.

"That said, Dyche's idea of football is not mine and I struggle to say he has done well. I will remind you all we never won a game for 2 months. I will remind you that Dyche has his clique of favourite players, he got rid of Demarai Gray as Benitez got rid of James Rodriguez and our French international, Lucas Digne, who was brought in to replace Leighton Baines."

Every manager who has had Demarai Gray has eventually gotten rid of him. Dyche is hardly unique in this regard. Gray is a good, but unreliable and selfish player who doesn't work for the team. I'm not sure why you'd conflate Dyche with Benitez, other than for the purpose of character assassination.

"All I see is a team that can't score; he has all our players with go-faster anchors tied to their heels and has players running around like Duracell bunnies. I don't see any talent in Dyche whatsoever but I see him getting rid of our talent."

Just so we're clear: We have no attacking talent. We have a one-footed left winger, a left-footed right winger, Beto who can't hit the target, and Dominic who misses far too many chances.

As for the charge of getting rid of talent; joke. Simms did nothing for most of last season until he caught fire against Maidstone in the cup, at which point he had a fairly decent run-in. But the Championship isn't close in difficulty to the Premier League. What has Tom Cannon done? Good young player. So is Simms. But we had to sell in order to get our necks off the block on PSR.

"If allowed to play, they can't score and won't score playing Dycheball. He was the right man at the time but he will damage us as all he knows is Dycheball. If he is not told to go soon, I can't see Dyche lasting 6 months."

I genuinely don't know what to say to this. You've just glued a bunch of words together and somehow imagine that they amount to an argument.

"If The Friedkin Group do take over, they will get rid of Sean Dyche at the first opportunity. Yes, okay, so Dyche won 5 games on the run but, since then, it feels like I've been brainwashed into thinking he has done a good job."

The long run without wins came in the shadow of a 10-point deduction, and against a succession of tough games. There were precious few opportunities in that run. He then corrected that with the late run at the end of the season.

The notion that you've been "brainwashed" tracks, though, given that you appear to have done precious little thinking for yourself in crafting this opinion piece. Forgive me for being harsh.

"I don't hate Dyche as a person but I want the best for Everton. He will never learn what is best for Everton. What should trump Dyche's playing style is what's best for Dycheball is not necessarily what's best for Everton."

We all want what's best for Everton. Right now, stability is what's best for Everton. For the past 8 years, we've lurched from manager to manager, from one playing style to another, with none being congruous from one to the next.

"Dycheball", as you label it, brought our best points total and placement in the league since 2021.

By the way, I too had (and voiced) my doubts about Sean Dyche during the long run without a win. It was hard not to. It was a tough spell. But ultimately, it amounted to bed-wetting, and some on here, including Dale Self, pretty much said so, albeit they're better wordsmiths, and were more polite. I can absolutely understand how some people have come to have doubts about our manager.

But in placing his work since January 2023 in its full context, rather than simply by responding angrily (as some of us did during the long winless run), it's impossible not to reach the conclusion that he and Thelwell have done a good job in that time, and that, as long as they're operating under the constraints they are, we should hold course.

We can't comment on why players were moved on as we don't know the full story, and I was very disappointed in the circumstances about Gary Speed leaving, but we don't know exactly what happened. But that was years ago. But James could not stay at Everton, as his salary was ludicrous, and Digne's form had been faltering for months.

The football under Dyche is not very appealing but, given the points deductions and the limited amount of money he had to spend to keep us in the Premier League, he deserves a lot of credit.

Some of the signings Thelwell has made have many questions – not least the Beto deal and the loan signing of Danjuma – but, as stated in other posts, most clubs can sign duds, however big their budget.

I think as fans we fall into the thinking that, with very little money, we shouldn't expect Dyche to be playing an expansive game, and that's understandable. But surely our expectations should allow us to wish for a more attacking and expansive approach?

Maybe that's never going to be Dyche's style and maybe we have to accept that, for next season at least, it will be a similar approach to the 2 previous seasons under Dyche.

But I would hope, if we go into the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock as a Premier League side, our owners will look for a manager who will play the more attacking game I and a few others would like to see.

Ultimately we will see if they're good enough under Friedkin. If they aren't, he will make the change.

No fan will have enjoyed what they've seen, but if it's kept them in the Premier League until better times, then they've done their job.

Yes, he's defensive. Yes, we don't have too much up front. But I watch Everton a lot and we do actually play some decent stuff.

I think Thelwell is doing a decent job in restructuring the squad in the circumstances he inherited. And Dyche has done a great job keeping a threadbare squad focussed with the shenanigans going on around them.

If you go down the DoF model, let him do his job. He will be judged on it. Previously, we've had too much interference from above.

I know I'll be there next season. I'm sure you all will be.

Players come and go. All that matters are the players who walk onto that pitch in Royal Blue on 17 August, whoever they are.

I think we are in a much better position to move forward as a team since Dyche and Thelwell have joined the club.

Both have done the toughest of jobs very well in the circumstances and delivered us relative stability when relegation and administration loomed; all this in the face of point deductions, the need to slash the wage bill, and no funds for transfers unless generated by sales.

We still have Everton as a going concern because of what they have achieved on and off the pitch.

Their task may prove even harder next season if we end the transfer window with £90-100M from player sales and little of it invested in replacements. Thelwell is identifying relevant talent, but we are missing out on deals that require an upfront cost.

For Sean Dyche, the team played positive football in the first 5 games last season with poor outcomes. He was absolutely right to change the tactics and the results up to mid-December were excellent. We all accept that the following run of 14 wins without a game was not acceptable, but he worked through it with a weak squad to put together a string of wins.

He builds off a defensive base, but when the team is confident he plays a relatively high line. The team also mix play up to beat the press and transition quickly.

It might not be everyone's cup of team, but we can play more progressively when we have the ability to buy the talent to do it.

The time to replace them will be when it becomes apparent that they've achieved all they are capable of and that the club can do better. We are a long, long way from such a scenario.

The pragmatic style that Ancelotti adopted for most of his Everton tenure shows me that Dyche has adopted the right style for a squad of players that has only regressed in quality since the great Italian left our club.

This time last year, many of us were fearing the very real spectre of relegation: A combination of Dyche, his coaches, and Thelwell as DoF are slowly steering the club away from the season-on-season woe of financial crisies, points deductions, and an unbalanced squad with some "low asset" players on big wages who will likely depart for little or no money.

Finally, we have the (pending) Friedkin takeover, and the need to ensure there is a season of consolidation pending the move to the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

The coaches will have an intense pre-season regime and, for me, the very least the DoF and manager deserve is a full season in which there are actually some funds available to add quality and depth to the squad.

This will probably be dependent upon the sale of Onana… and possibly that of Calvert-Lewin; the new owner will, of course, assess the situation, but I would hope he would stick with the manager and DoF at least until the stadium move.

He has done a good job under difficult circumstances and has been a good ‘fit' for us in that sense. I would be surprised
If the new owners extend his contract as the quality of football on offer is generally dour at best and dire at worst.

Me too, Danny.

When I see that in a post, I scroll past as I know the poster will have little or nothing to offer.

I believe he has the ability to be able to do more with better players at his disposal – he's earned the right.

Thellwell has worked minor miracles. Chelsea have arguably fared worse… just it's not as visible and there are so many deals; ours stand out when they don't work.

The encouraging thing is that Dyche and Thellwell are working together. You may not agree but at least there is a plan...

Post Moyes - Roberto con los zapatos de color marrón - was indulged only by getting high points totals and Wembley semi-finals but day one haters never gave up and eventually got their way. Lesser achievers are shot within a season.

Bar a miracle, Dyche will be gone by Xmas.

Dyche with Dycheball is trying to set a consistent system of play and Thelwell is trying to put an effective transfer strategy in place.

Considering the basket case scenario at Everton, they are doing okay. It will probably be another season of the same and then different performance targets.

Dyche has been a terrific leader. In one of the most tumultuous periods that I have ever seen at the club, he has led from the front whilst everything above him has been complete disarray.

Given the circumstances, I can't really see what more he could have done.

Yes, he isn't perfect (no-one is) and has made a few errors but has largely made the right moves.

Without everything that has gone on, to get 48 points (on the pitch) after the last couple of seasons was a great return. Taking into account everything that has gone on, with the points deductions, lack of funds, upheaval at the top of the club and the badly unbalanced squad, I think he's performed a minor miracle.

Yes, it hasn't been pretty… but it is still way better than the dross served up by Allardyce (though admittedly that was a pretty low bar).

He can obviously improve (he is too slow to make any changes even when he has had the personnel on the bench to be able to do it) and sticks with players sometimes for too long when everyone can see that they are miles off it (Keane) but you can't get everything right.

Thelwell, however, is harder to judge… though I personally would not be writing him off. Some of his signings have been awful but surely everyone can see that we have been operating in the bargain bucket.

Some were good or canny signings (either on loan or permanent signings): Coady, Gueye, Harrison, Tarkowski, Garner, McNeil, Onana. I'm also very hopeful Ndiaye will be an inspired signing.

The jury is out on a few (for me anyway): Beto, Chermiti and some were just signings that we needed to make, like Young and Danjuma.

He resisted selling Branthwaite for decent money to PSV and made some money on Onana, got a lot of the deadwood off the books and got money in for fringe players (Simms, Dobbin, Cannon).

He's also wasted money on Maupay who has been an unmitigated disaster.

But this is against a backdrop of working within a very difficult situation given the state of the club financially and in terms of stability. No doubt there were players he wanted who wouldn't have even entertained joining us because of this (Danjuma and Ndiaye for example).

Given how difficult it's been, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'd definitely stick with Dyche. I actually see him as a potential long-term appointment and doing something similar to Moyes.

Thelwell is harder to judge but give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he does going forwards.

I respect your opinion and the few others that feel the same, but most ToffeeWebbers are realists and, since Carlo announced he was no magician because of the bullshit in the boardroom, the club went into a downward spiral aided by Lampard and the FSW.

The confidence in the squad dropped considerably and we have seen much change in the playing staff.

We lost two of our most potent players in Richarlison and Gordon and had a long spell without Calvert-Lewin as well as the continuing mess that was supposed to be our leadership at the top.

I actually believe Dyche and Thelwell have performed miracles in the circumstances and would argue that we would have finished in the top half of the table but for Masters and his agenda, no mean feat considering the players we had to sell and the long time without Calvert-Lewin.

The jury is still out as to when we will see regular dominant football at Goodison, but I do see signs of a togetherness and belief coming back to the team and that is due to the much maligned Dyche and Thelwell.

I would advocate getting behind the manager and the players and see where that takes us but remember, while other clubs have been building and buying good players, we have been selling and shopping at Lidl.

Scoring only 40 goals and a 12th place finish would have been no mean feat. Consider too that we had the 4th best defence in the league.

This suggests to me that both Dyche & Thelwell have done a sterling job with a group of players who only survived relegation on the final day of 2023-23 and a miraculous comeback the season before.

For me, 2024-25 will see us break into the Top 10 and we'll leave the Grand Old Lady on a high.

Dyche has been the consummate professional in not moaning publicly about his time in the Goodison hot seat. Many would have walked before now.

My guess is, the fans know only half the story, the full truth will come out eventually, and many might be more grateful for Dyche and his 'Dycheball' in retrospect.

No transfer budget, two points deductions in the same season, and a group of players limited in ability right across the team (with a couple of exceptions).

No, they wern't great to watch for the most part but, after the 6-0 humiliation at Chelsea, I thought we were dead and buried to be honest. Not sure many could have lifted morale after that catastrophe.

No-one can be sure how Dyche would fare if he was financially supported by a more stable Top 6 club because, during his managerial career, he's never had that luxury.

But what I do know is lesser mortals would have wilted under similar pressure. He was the ultimate barrier in front of the players, in what was a very toxic Goodison Park at times.

As to his future, who knows what's in store, if and when the Friedkin Group complete the takeover, but for now, he certainly deserves another season.

We have had some big names who did well elsewhere but they flopped big time when they came here.

Dyche has paid his dues and is as experienced as anyone out there. He knows this club now and could get us moving again after all the turmoil beyond his control last season.

After the 'kid in a sweetshop' approach by DoF Walsh, and the confused approach of DoF Brands contributed significantly to our financial woes, having a DoF will a 'buy low, sell high' philosophy is very welcome. Yes, he has bought some duffers, but not ones that have resulted in massive financial loss like his predecessors.

He protected the team and as suggested, many others would have thrown in the towel, but he stayed steady.

I haven't seen the support go toxic, although the Chelsea 6-0 thumping was a hard one to take.

The worse I saw it in recent seasons was at Brentford and then Norwich under Benitez, when the supporters really turned. You had to be there to see it.

Dyche conducts himself well. He doesn't always come over to the supporters, he tends to leave that to the players. But he will always applaud the supporters.

Although he's been injured lately, I think the club will have to start docking Mykolenko's wages if he keeps giving away his shirt all the time!!!

Personally, I'm grateful for him keeping us in the top flight 2 years on the run, in existential circumstances no previous Everton manager has ever faced. The style of football has been the least of my concerns. I'll be grateful again if he does it this season.

I have, however, been disappointed that we constantly play low block against a lot of opposition at home and would prefer we mix it up and go after most teams when playing at home.

That said, I suspect those tactics are mostly down to a combination of needing the points and lack of quality players rather than a fixed philosophy from our manager.

He might take the road Abramovich took with Ranieri and give him the boot but, if I was him, I'd wait and see.

And wtf are “go faster anchors”??

In fairness though, and Mike G mentioned it earlier, it wasn't initially written as an article. It was just a stream of consciousness comment in a thread.

Now I don't agree with the main thrust of John's points - but I wouldn't want all my stream of consciousness rubbish suddenly critiqued by the ToffeeWeb masses as a considered article.

I'll therefore make a point of agreeing with John that Dyche has done a good job of reviving Calvert-Lewin. And I also agree and hope that, if anyone can do it with Dele Alli, then it's probably Dyche. Let's hope so anyway.

I would love someone to sit down with me to try to turn the opening sentence into English so that we might be able to understand it.

The opening sentence is always critical for setting the tone so what follows is a sequence of cliches without reasons; opinions with no evidential or reasoned roots.

John Wilson, quite frankly, might have been better served leaving things really simple: "Thelwell and Dyche are not really doing a good job for Everton: Discuss".

Regardless of what type of play you wish to call it, he achieved the highest Premier League placing for a long while that was reduced by factors beyond his control caused by previous poor ownership.

We would all like to see free-flowing high-scoring football as goals win you points, but at the same time, it is your defense that keeps them, and if you are not blessed with the high-scoring attacking players, and that's what Everton do not have, then there is more emphasis on defending with what you have.

Nobody knows what the new ownership will bring but I think when they take over and see what they have and they think, will bringing in a new manager with the playing squad they have bring in more improvements? With the new regulations that Everton and Forest were punished with, I believe Dyche will stay.

We all expect Dyche to play more defensive football, and that has been expected with the previous clubs he has been with, but he has yet to be given the higher financial help to bring in the type of player to improve the attacking side of the game. Some he may have had, but he has been forced to sell for financial reasons.

Sky Sports have got what they want and that is their precious Top 6 and to break into it will be difficult with the Premier League rulings that even the richest club in the league, Newcastle Utd have trouble breaking it up.

We may have new owners with lots of money but so have a lot of other clubs including those who have just been promoted, and that is why we have a better chance with Dyche, no matter what we call his type of football, to keep stability in the club and that is what new players look for, and not the basket case we have been for the last number of years.

Yes, this was originally posted on one of the threads. It was well off-topic and the usual result of that is deletion.

But there's another option and the drumbeat of opinion this admittedly very poorly constructed post presented has been present in various comments, so I thought it might be interesting to see the responses it would engender as a Talking Point item.

It's not well written… but it has generated some good responses, so thanks for that.

What I think is especially true is that an unknown number of ToffeeWebbers believe that we should stick with Dyche until we find ourselves in a more comfy mid-table 10/12 position (and also around the same time the financial side of things is sunnier).

Not a word to disagree with but I was disappointed that you did not give us proper paragraph breaks.

Support the bloke - he's pragmatic and then some.

IF we get new owners they and we may just be surprised and delighted with the advent of enough money to buy players of choice, not desperation, and how he then gets them playing.

Both Thelwell and Dyche were sold a 'crock of shit' when interviewed and appointed my Mr Everton (The Maggot), and have both fared well, with hands tied, and a very limited squad inherited. Why do some people always believe the 'grass is greener, on the other side of the fence' ?

Under the circumstances, both had the right to resign, but didn't, and I for one am prepared to at least give them time, once the 'new ownership' ends are tied up. Given a Transfer Budget and not restrained by PSR, they may just raise a few doubter's eyebrows !