Keep woke foreign ideologies out – defend Europe

And presumably, if you identify as 'woke' then you are automatically offended?

They should really at least provide a compendium of 'woke foreign ideologies' that we can review and decide whether we like them or not. Rather than this blanket exclusion order.

More to the point, why couldn't fucking Uefa just ignore this as fan banter and high jinks? Who exactly is being targetted and is suffering discrimination here? The Wagner Group???

Or is that the point? Trump and Musk have now infiltrated the bad Bhoys of Ibrox...

People against “woke” just hate minorities, equality and inclusion.

Where do these "foreign" ideologies come from? The Middle East? Africa? North Korea? Cuba?

Emma, that's not the case and a bit strong. I do know that a lot of the population has concerns about certain matters and issues, but it's not always hatred towards minorities, equality and inclusion.

Suggesting that and dismissing those concerns, alienates groups of the population who are labelled just as some label so called woke. It actually fuels bad feeling.

Back to the subject of banners. I'm supposing that on the 2nd of April, we will be subject to having to face that disgraceful taunting banner celebrating Steaua Bucharest's 1986 European Cup victory.

Making a joke out of one of football's major tradegies that they caused and is airbrushed from their history. They really do not have any shame.

They froze the bank accounts of the oligarchs, so I'd love someone to start looking into the bank accounts of a lot of these politicians, and the people that are close to them.

Everywhere you look, there seems to be posters of Allah advertised on billboards. Why do people want to start advertising their prophets on buses and in train stations or billboards at the side of the road?

I suppose this might/will make me sound racist, especially to the people who have a completely absurd attitude like Emma @2, but in all honesty, I'm curious, and although it goes against my most natural policy of just live and let live, I would love someone to be able to make me understand why Allah is getting advertised all over our country.

Before FIFA fine the club, they should ask the Rangers thickos to be more specific about which “woke foreign ideologies” they want to defend Europe from.

My money is still on the Catholic Church.

We have been effectively gagged from pointing out issues that are plain and obvious to any sensible person.

It is forbidden in Islam to make a physical representation of the prophet.

'TRUST IN ALLAH - give ZACAT' are what it says.

Yeah, I didn't realize Rangers now support Pan European cultures and identities. I thought their interest was confined to what happens in Shankhill where foreign ideology was introduced to the natives by the British centuries ago.

About half of the Uber drivers who pick me up are from Afghanistan and we happily talk about the places I went to when I spent in total of about a year of my life there. Afghanistan is a good example of what extremism can do and give it a louder voice than the mainstream. Most of the locals were hospitable and just wanted to get on with their lives. The Taliban. Just plain evil bastards. Sorry for blaspheming. I have no other words.

Tolerance is key. Live and let live. It goes both ways.

I personally think it is dangerous to allow a minority to have a louder voice than the majority. It generates resentment and is perceived as favouring certain elements. Inclusiveness and equality is exactly what it says on the tin. Let extremists dictate the narrative and we're on the path to trouble. Sometimes serious trouble as we've seen in the past on many occasions.

I once done a course on Religion and Conflicts, as most wars have had a religious undertone or religion has been used as a tool to whip up frenzy by political and religious leaders.

Back to banners. I hope those responsible are taking the "We Built this City in 1878" one to Anfield.

After the recent League Cup final, I was talking to a friend who supports Newcastle. Somehow, we strayed onto Heysel (him not me) and when Liverpool and Juventus met in Europe a few years back. At Anfield, when the Kop held up one with the Italian word "Amicizia" (translates to friendship), to which the Juve supporters turned their backs. In return leg, the Italians held up a response "Easy to speak, difficult to pardon".

Michael K (1): are you being deliberately provocative when you refer to "the bad Bhoys of Ibrox..." mate?

Raymond F (13): I feel that your post is as bankrupt in its conception as Emma's (2) in the other corner.

"We have enough woke and PC thinking in the UK thank you very much, I think they should be complaining about that. We have been effectively gagged from pointing out issues that are plain and obvious to any sensible person".

Who is this "we" Raymond? Who is it that you are acting as self-appointed spokesperson for? I'm genuinely interested as in knocking what you feel are the opinions of others you do not tell us what your exact position is except that you are "sensible".

Your second sentence is comedy gold Raymond and the classic fallback position for any conservative (is conservative the right word?) - I'm not calling you a conservative, by the way - who is uncomfortable with and struggles with DEI matters.

You are not "gagged" Raymond. Here you are declaiming on these pages. "Gagged", I think, and again I'm not saying that this is you Raymond, is the usual specious sidetracking of someone who for whatever reason is unwilling or unable (maybe challenged is better) to engage constructively wih DEI practices and principles.

Although he was from Northern Ireland, he was born before the partition, so it was still Ireland then.

Now there is another place I spent a total of 3 years in watching how two communities can rip themselves apart. Again led by a very vocal and extremely violent minority on both sides, with religion at the centre of it.

I think those ads are charities raising money for relief in Gaza.

I don't think it's about advertising the religion as such. Might be wrong.

Now, I've no issue with collecting for people in need, but I thought I'd stop and talk to them. All friendly, no animosity and they were making their stance peacefully.

Playing Devil's advocate, I asked them why the Palestine flags and no Iraeli ones? It took them back a bit, but I followed on and asked one gentleman what his opinion on Hamas' murder of over 1,000 Israelis was.

My final question was, what are you trying to achieve?

His response was they just wanted peace for all in the region. I said good luck with that. People have been trying that for centuries.

I shook his hand, wished him well and carried on my walk.

Is a charity by definition woke? Is giving aid woke? Is protection of the weak woke? Are racial, sexual or religious, discrimination policies woke?

It's a label used as a tool by callous or stupid politicians and its media, people to justify their political (usually) leanings. But after all my own ramblings, if being anti woke is being played out in the USA at the moment, then human nature is controlled by fear and hate of anyone or anything that means change. Not in my book.

PS This is a football site, I hate with a vengeance that poster, as I did those Oil protestors gluing themselves to goal posts, it's football, a place I try to enjoy for the love of the game, far from the excess of life!

Again, might be wrong.

No-one can justify the Hamas attack that killed 1,000 Isralies, but neither can anyone justify the level of response which is described by many as genocide. If it's not it seems pretty dammed close to me.

The old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" just about sums it up.

It should have been way more targeted. We used to call it courageous restraint. And minimise civilian collateral. They have one of the best and most modern and effective militarys in the world, but went all WW2 in terms of tactics.

Same with the Assad regime backed by Russia as Tony calls out.

Yes, Christine, I know it's not what we want, and apologize for my curiosity in seeking enlightenment from the greater ToffeeWeb Collective – but, in my defence, it is football-related.

And yes, Paul, I think 'Bhoys' is Celtic; perhaps I was trying to be generically Glazwegian (while studiously avoiding any reference to Moyes) but hand up for any deliberate provocation on my part.

Some interesting discussion though. I like your gentle probing, Danny. If I tried that, it would probably descend into a shouting match — or worse!

Yes. I'm still struggling to know what that banner is getting at.

As I've said before and not blowing smoke but good to have you back in the debates. You're still the TW boxing referee!!

It happens in most wars but also outside of wars but is beyond belief, to me, that people can kill other people, helpless people and still live with that on their conscience.

Perhaps it is 2 banners +1. "Keep woke foreign ideologies out" is separate from the single banner "defend Europe". In which case, the first might be a rallying call against anything that is not Scottish or, narrowing the lens, Rome. So, "Defend Europe" is a passionate call against Putin or Trump or both.

Or, perhaps it is three banners: "keep woke foreign' (down with that sort of thing, we don't want it here); "ideologies out" (we are sick and tired of ideologies that cause more harm than good); and Defend Europe", a passionate call against Putin or Trump or both.

I think that I have got to the bottom of it.

Politicians send us there without a plan beyond the short term. On our side, only a select few have had an objective.

I think the richest people are those who have peace of mind and I would have been one of those if I wasn't an Evertonian, especially these last 20 years!

International breaks have a lot to answer for!

My early lived perk of only paying £5 for Sunday's tickt was more than cancelled out by the £85 return train ticket and whatever I spend when I'm there.

Liam, these types of threads are great, seeing the different views. As long as sportsmanship prevails!!!

Talking of genocide, I will try again because I've already had one post deleted, but I was reading that the human rights lawyer, Sir Kier Starmer, successfully defended a few Rwandan warlords from being deported back to their country from the UK where they were wanted for mass genocide.

Good on Kier because they would obviously have faced the death penalty and this is not something that our politicians believe in. But, if this is true, he his no better than Putin looking after that horrible Syrian leader, Assad.

Other than that I have no idea what the word means nor am I in the least interested. All I know is that there has been far too much verbage on this thread about it.

Also Thatcher putting the wounded out of view during the victory celebrations after the Falklands War and this country not doing enough for those who suffered during many wars but left to their own devices after those wars.

And being fair, Blair should find it hard to sleep after letting Bush lead him into that war in the Middle East.

Normally at about 7am.

In Afghanistan we lost over 450 military personnel. What was never reported was the wounded, with life changing injuries. A PC way okaying loss of limbs.

I used to visit the Headley Court rehabilitation centre to visit one of my lads who had both his legs blown off. Humbling. One of the worst experiences of my life was meeting his parents and brother. You have no words in those situations. The lad was 21 at the time.

Oh oh the wokey cokey...

From Emma there is “to be aware and empathetic of social injustices”, and from Christine “policies that often protect groups from the excesses of self above all”.

Like anything administered by human beings the good intentions can be hijacked or used as a screen by people who actually have ulterior motives, but to be willingly against (or even not interested in) the basic principle / ethics seems fairly ‘extreme’ to me.

And, while I'm at it, which also applies to the idiotic banner at a Sevco match.

From this Yank's perspective Blair had twice the intellect of Bush, who had all the "leadership" skills of the average basset hound. Bush was manipulated with ridiculous ease by a vice president whom I would have characterized as the epitome of evil before the current regime checked in. (A regime that considers Iraq and Afghanistan vets worthy of only neglect, derision and, in the past few weeks, large-scale firings from their jobs.)

Anyway, if Blair actually "followed" Bush he's a much weaker man than I would have thought possible.

Nobody does it better in one sentence than you do.

Let's end the thread with that and talk about football (said more in hope than expectation)

It's as simple and yet as complex as that.

Hope those who admitted earlier in the thread to having no understanding of the term stuck around long enough to be educated.

Blair has had a great career, and became a very prominent and wealthy man, and this is something that weak politicians rarely achieve.

Blair was a devious bastard, but I suppose you don’t go far if you’re not a devious bastard in the very murky world of politics.

Left or Right, Liam, or is it clowns to the left and jokers to the right? Vote left or vote right, isn’t democracy wonderful🤦‍♂️

Two weeks without Everton, hopefully you are going to watch your lad play this weekend Liam💙

The Department of Defense restored a story on its website highlighting Jackie Robinson's military service Wednesday after deleting it as part of President Donald Trump's efforts to purge references to diversity, equity and inclusion through a "digital content refresh."

While it does not make any references to DEI, the story on Robinson was among a swath scrubbed from government websites in recent days. Before the story on Robinson's service was restored, the URL had redirected to one that added the letters "dei" in front of "sports-heroes."

In a statement sent by the Pentagon at 1:24 p.m. ET Wednesday, press secretary John Ullyot cited Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth in saying "DEI is dead at the Defense Department" and said the Department of Defense was "pleased by the rapid compliance" that led to the erasing of stories on Robinson, Navajo Code Talkers and Ira Hayes, one of six Marines who raised the American flag at Iwo Jima.

America, 2025.

So the banners to me seem to say that “woke” attitudes are not welcome in Scotland. They also think that ideologies are bad, which seems reasonable when you consider all the death and destruction all the various “-isms” have caused in Europe. And of course Europe has to be “defended” - we spent billions on national defence.

What all this has to do with football, I have no idea.

Mike, Blair was not so much led, more that he wanted to be involved and stand alongside Bush and the US. In honesty, it was probably due to the raw feeling after 9/11. And also, that in reality, through most of recent history, it's only really been the UK and US that have done this with contribution from Australia, Canada, New Zealand and some of the European nations.

Anyway, I'll get back to football. Apologies if I overshared. Wait until the build up and after the derby!!

One mentions it’s started with the Black Lives Matter movement- yet it’s been around for decades.

And it literally means to be empathetic to social injustices, against discrimination- my core principles.

Roger says what does this have to do football? The anti woke folk hate things like football against homophobia campaigns etc, only have to scroll through comments on Facebook on clubs campaigns, Everton included to see how backwards the world is going, it’s absolutely vile, go and spend time talking to Paul at his rainbow toffees merchandise stall on match days, also there’s a rise in hate crimes by 180% in the UK.

That’s what that banner is all about in football terms, “grown men” melting because of a rainbow ffs, my eldest daughter is lesbian, loves football, but doesn’t even want to go games anymore.

We came over for the Bournemouth game and the Missus, as they do, decided she needed her hair done (why she didnt get it all sorted before we went god knows) and we struggled to find a ladies hairdresser - but there was any number of these mens Salons, sometimes 3 in a street ffs.

If it's at all possible - and it apparently seems to be - Trump appears to be increasingly erratic.

This 'deal' over Ukraine stinks and has no obvious benefits other than to Putin.

Maybe he has a more malign form of the bumbling doddery oldmans Biden-itis??

I suspect (hope) that, like Biden they will quietly ( but probably noisily knowing him) sideline him, or if not, they'll have to take him out the door in a straight jacket within 2 years.

I'm not sure he's ever been the full shilling and in my opinion, people don't change - they just become more so.

Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

J.D. Vance - Come on down! Yikes.

Emma, you're entitled to your views, as is everyone. We live in a free country after all and, within reason, there should be nothing wrong with that however different they are. The way you worded it comes over as woke (given you seem to know what it means) is good, everything outside of that is discriminatory. It's just not the case and is dismissive.

Dave, I go to my local Turkish Barber, but they are actually Kurdish. It's great and took me years to trust someone with a cut throat blade for a smooth shave. Then a hot towel on the head that always nearly sends me to sleep and what they call a massage. I call it being beaten as they manhandle my shoulders, pummel my back and shake my arms in a caterpillar motion from the hands up to the shoulders. I guess I feel better for it afterwards!!

Mind you his autobiography is nowhere near as good as Alastair Campbell's letters which are themselves in the same league as Arthur Schlesinger's letters (on Kennedy etc.).

Like you, Les, I would like EUFA to tell us what these banners mean as they must know, I presume, as they are taking action against it. I would like the club to explain exactly why these banners are "shameful" and "embarrassing".

If it boils down to we don't want any woke stuff up here in Scotland and it's harming Europe, then that is a reasonable position and point of view. I completely disagree with it and its disgusting implications for discrimination and social justice. But disagreeing with something is not enough to take retributive actions.

I totally support Emma's second post (70) and I’m glad that she expanded on her first one. Emma might not agree with me, but stating “we don’t want anything woke around here” is for me a reasonable opinion that contrariwise helps to sharpen support for the other side of the coin whenever it needs to be expressed and defended.

On the second half, maybe 'cos it's ramadan?

On the second half, maybe 'cos it's ramadan?

Provoke and choke fit well. Can you suggest a way to fit soak.

It's great to have some rain today for the first time in months. The ground needed a soak. (not suggesting this fits, though).

Is this a joke
to entertain us folk
when we'd spoke
about FC Stoke
A lot of smoke
Give me a poke
Oh, now I've awoke
and drank my Coke
But, I'm not a Woke
They are broke
easy to provoke
prone to choke
and that's no joke
Just good to be a bloke!

I'd describe myself as anti-woke but all my life have been supportive of minorities, equality and inclusion, before all this woke nonsense came about.

Seems to me that the youth of today think that they invented the DEI and despite having Google, have no idea of what went on in the 60's and 70's with the various DEI movements.

Is this a joke?
to entertain us folk
when we'd spoke
that last time in Stoke
A lot of smoke
Give me a poke
Before I croak
Oh, now I've awoke
In my sweaty bed I soak
I must drink my coke
This all sounds Baroque
But, I'm not a Woke
They are broke
easy to provoke
prone to choke
and that's no joke
Just good to be a bloke!

Edit: All fixed now!!

With no views I'll revoke
Lest with scorn I am soaked

I think also some recent context is worth adding to the mix, a recent survey found that Gen Z (born between 1997 and 2012) think UK would be better under a dictatorship. They also think the UK is racist, and would not fight for their country.

I have a lot of sympathy for younger people. They're largely destined to spend their lives in debt, or at least struggling to get a financial foothold. Many had their education experience ruined by Covid.

I also struggle to empathise, when you hear from employers about difficulties in assimilating some fresh graduates/school leavers into the workforce. Ranging from "I'm not feeling it today" to an outright refusal to answer phone calls as they lack the confidence or skill-set to communicate in other than emojis. Good job most of UK business outsources its call centres then...

From tipping statues into rivers, and demanding reparations for behaviour centuries ago - go ahead. Newsflash - the country is skint, and likely is going to be for another generation. Productivity is low for an industrialised country, and now a Labour government is having to reduce welfare and focus more on the origins of the party - workers. Welfare was supposed to be a safety net, not a way of life (and that is not to disparage genuine cases, of which there are many, and many who are not getting the help they need).

The problem is nobody really gives a fuck anymore. Parliament is rammed with self-interest or far left/right campaigners. There's very few "ordinary, decent" men and women now seeking to go into politics for "the greater good" - why would you, with all the online hate?

For the conspiracy theorists, there's a school of thought which suggests a lot of this alternative narrative is pushed by overseas powers who would seek to weaken the fabric of a country. From influencing elections, to "dumbing down" the populace - compare TikTok in China to the rest of the world - one is patriotic and educational, the other is full of people doing silly dances or teaching you how to make welfare claims. Why would the algorithms be so different?

I spent nearly 10 years living in a country that would be described as a one-party state. Another 10 years in one that was absolutely not a democracy. As well as seeing missiles (mercifully) shot out of the sky, I also saw the troll farms - where batteries of (mainly young) people are using social media to stoke up tension in other countries.

I'm lucky enough to now live in jungle, on an island, close to the sea. Mainly because I have no solutions anymore.

And I don't think "Influencer" is a proper job. If that makes me a relic, so be it!

'Woke' is about supporting the core principles of diversity, equity and inclusivity programs, not about being part of the lunatic fringe that take things too far.

I think you think that by stating you are anti-woke you think you are declaring you are fed-up with the lunatic fringe, but you are saying you don't support the diversity, equality and inclusivity principles you state you have long held.

Like a lot of us who have never used it as a label, you are actually ‘woke' but against those policies going too far and becoming equally as odious as the prevalent prejudices they are supposed to guard against.

The whole terminology appears to have become confused, possibly because ‘snowflake' turned up in the UK around the same time and being a ‘snowflake' is apparently synonymous with being ‘woke' in some people's minds.

Being ‘woke' is not an indication of any form of extremism; being ‘anti-woke' is not an indication, in and of itself, of rationality.

And thanks Eric and Derek.

I can't speak for everyone but I do think a lot of the people on here who don't like the label 'woke' (which rightly or wrongly does mean a lot of different things to different people) would be really very supportive of your daughter.

Anyway, thought I'd mention it and hope your daughter's experience improves.

I had nothing else to do ……..

Is this a joke?

To entertain us folk

Whose spirits I invoke

When we last spoke

For the second time in Stoke

Before your third stroke

You had egg and artichoke

There was a lot of smoke

That I cannot now evoke

Give me a poke

You reticent slowpoke

I refuse to croak

You kicked me in the epitoke

Oh, now I've awoke

In my sweaty bed I soak

I must drink my coke

Even it if was bespoke

This all sounds Baroque

A meeting I shall convoke

Near Oxford in Begbroke

Or in London in Portsoken

But I can never be a broker

I‘d rather catch sunstroke

Quiet, I am not a cowpoke

And I'm not a Woke

This is not to equivoke

Your message I revoke

We’ve all lived under that yoke

Under the ancient Dane Palnatoke

Unyoke me, unyoke me

For they are broke

Easy to provoke

Prone to choke

This I did forespoke

I’m sorry I misspoke

And that is not a joke

Just good to be a bloke!

I’ll get my cloak

My posting problems are not over but it only seems to be this site I have problems with, all others work fine.

Lyndon!! Lyndon!!

The thread was a bit too serious and so I wanted to lighten it up. Thanks, and your final offering has well and truly outdone mine.

Bob, you and I should get together and write a song for Eurovision 2026.

Despite what Cockneys say of Scousers, I'm almost pleased after the Sam Kerr case to be part of the race who don't seem to be able to be racially abused even if I had no say in the matter.

What does any of this have to do with a Scottish football club or for that matter not Chelsea?

What a lot of people fail to see or realise, is the narrative in politics have weaponised the word 'woke' by populists, to come across as something bad — using it as a way to say woke is the cause for people's lives being shit…

Hear, hear.

I'm with Michael in post 1 on that (although “Bhoys of Ibrox”? - you could start a sectarian riot just by printing that, Michael!).

Flags need to be succinct to drive the point home. The best example of this was the one I saw in the Prince George before the Palace game recently. Proudly displayed by three lads and understood and cheered by the whole pub it was a blue bed sheet with a simple but clear message painted in white:

“Liverpool are shit”

Quality.

Colin, I don't mind when these debates go off on one. It's fascinating reading the different views,

They are the most bigoted fans in the UK celebrating their links with Chelsea's 'No surrender' brigade and, LOL, the Glentoran and Linfield 'ultras' and, more seriously, Lazio, Partizan Belgrade, and Den Haag.

I suppose that we give too much credit to these unintelligible and inarticulate banners that the poor things were not able to weave into one.

Rangers and red shite have that Souness, Walters, Adam, Diouf, Kyrgiakos and Gerrard affiliation, but Steven and Stevens… hmmmm!

When was the last time you visited Celtic Park? Now there's bigotry!

Of all the grounds I never allowed my kids or grandkids to go to either Celtic or Rangers as they're both half daft. However, being a good Catholic myself, Celtic have and still do go to a higher level.

From banners and songs supporting the IRA and killing British troops now to banners and flags supporting Hamas, nothing has ever been said and done by either Scottish or European associations.

Both Clubs have good supporters but both also have nutters and both Clubs should root out and ban their halfwits.

It's when religious fanatics, often stirring up hatred for their own good, politicians and despots raise their evil heads above the parapet that problems arise.

* Even the French...😁

By the time I spent my last tour there in the early 2000s, that had descended into displays on alternate lamp posts of Union Flags and Israeli flags on one side, with Tricolours and Palestinian flags on the other.

I was always a bit perplexed what any of that had to do with Northern Ireland!!

Lazio are a fascist bunch, Paul. Remember Di Canio doing his "salute" in front of the Lazio supporters at the Stadio Olympico? Good footballer, but that was out of order and got him suspended.

I used to live amongst both and went to watch them both several times. I much preferred Roma.

By the way, Matt, is there any room on that Island, close to the sea where you live, for an aging Scouser who is easy to get on with and not much trouble as long as there is a Post Office on the Island where I can cash my pension!

I have been in catering all my working life and gay/queer people are part of the team. Even in the early '80s, they were just accepted or you had a staff shortage. You did get the odd idiot but they were normally silenced or moved out.

Take care.

You'll never rid the world of idiots. Or to use Robert's more direct phrase, knobheads. Your daughter shouldn't be put off by it. I often find smiling or laughing at them is better. James Tarkowski is great at it when someone squares up to him. It winds the other party up. "Stand your ground and don't let the bullies win" as we were taught. They are vulnerable people underneath the aggressive front.

Usually, and especially now, they tend to get sorted out. Let's be honest, we were not immune from bigotry. I remember the chants of "Everton are White" in a small section of the Gwladys Street around where I stood. The problem being, like sheep, many others followed and joined in.

If I remember correctly, it earned us a column in the Mirror newspaper for being amongst the most racist supporters at the time. A bloke who always stood behind us "proudly" — a cheap 'Everton are White' badge on his jacket. For away matches, he used to get on the coach at Runcorn.

I do reflect if the world would be a better and safer place if there was no religion of any kind, if nothing else it would be one less reason to start a war.

I've also come across the scum and vile too. Won't go into detail.

My wish from now on is that each and every one of your wishes, and life on this planet, come true. Maybe the scum will be eradicated.

Enough said. Back to the football. Look after yourselves and families.

The last 30 years has seen Christian evangelism and Islamic fundamentalism finding global wars. Bhuddists are oppressing Rohingya Muslims and there is an ultra-Hindu government in India.

If you want to find religion, you can find your own peaceful journey to it.

Who’s that then Dave??

It is like a Brexit bonus.

I know I'm (overly, perhaps) sensitive about such matters but you can't say racism stops at the wool borders.

Shit – I just thought of something – am I being woke??

See you Sunday when you can keep me out of trouble with the local urchins asking me what the time is…

Yes, especially when those so-called different religions are similar.

Catholic and Protestant. The various factions of Islam.

And it's ironic that, at a higher level, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have their roots. in the same place and when you read into it, have more similarities than many realise. Just practiced differently.

“I blame it all on the rash of (allegedly) money laundering Turkish Barbershops that have sprung up like mushrooms after rain.”

I think that may be more young men's obsession with personal grooming. My son gets his hair cut every 2 weeks!

Shush Mark while Matt makes his mind up whether to send for me or not!

There are 2.5 million migrants employed in these barbershops in Yorkshire alone. So much for all these migrants claiming benefits! They just all cut hair!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aESiGkygWiw

Uses my beard trimmer — as I found out the other day when it jammed!

Best we leave the brotherly love until Sunday. See you in Doctor Duncan's before our timed walk the the Dock.

Probably explains the rash.

I could watch it every day even though I probably know every word.

The sectarianism is still shocking between Rangers and Celtic. I've been to Parkhead a good few times, and in pubs before the game, but in my opinion it's still the yobs from Northern Ireland, on both sides who are the biggest culprits.

Going to the Aviva for Ireland games, it's fans from the north singing the same Irish songs, but certain English fans are no different, and are not there for the football.

Now TW even has articles related to rumoured players... strange times. Not my call, just prefer to keep things football related and light-hearted. We blues need to stay positive by any means.

As they say, if you don't like it, there are other football and Everton related threads, so ignore and don't read it.

Father Jack. There are some classic scenes. When Father Ted is ranting about something totally different but to the Chinese visitors (I think), he looks like he's doing an impression of a certain WW2 dictator due to a mark on the window. And the adaptation of the film Speed on the milk float. Some great characters too. Douglas and Father "feck off" Jack.

I also liked the one series, one off, Max and Paddy's Road to nowhere. I great rendition of I guess that's why they call it the blues in one of the episodes.

Celtic have gotten worse though. Do you remember when O'Neill was manager and they won the 2003 fair play award for being the best happy-go-lucky well behaved fans on the continent? Now they hang effigies and never miss a chance to cause trouble. Which is weird cause the fans of 20 years ago who didn't do that were chronologically "closer" to the troubles than the fans now. Just demonstrates how artificial it all is. Just people looking for an excuse to cause trouble.

We usually loosen the Blue Reins a little when there are no Everton games.

This story is right on the edge, and it was inevitable that there would be 'scope creep' in the responses. But It's football-related and I think a number of fans might share my concern about over-reach by Uefa.

We've always carried Rumour Mill items about linked players and other unconfirmed gossip that people have picked up on and may want to discuss. We used to try and filter the links to only the most probable or the more reliable sources. But that metric itself is difficult to implement, so we may just post them up for interest's sake — knowing full well that 95% of them come to nothing.

But the fact is that speculation over new players is perhaps our most popular topic — after matchday controversies! — and we are in part reflecting that level of interest.

You will probably see new features popping up that you may have concerns about. Our Legal Eagle (Eddie?) has started pointing up stories about the application of football rules and regulations to other clubs… which is something that exercises many Everton fans now, for obvious reasons.

In Player Watch we will try to profile one or two Everton players each week, especially ones on the 'roster' who are perhaps less prominent, such as upcoming academy players.

Perhaps there are other Everton-related things you'd like us to cover?

Alan,

I have my own take on that, although I wouldn't say I'm right.

I think there are a few differences between Liverpool and Glasgow as much as there are similarities.

The Irish links for Liverpool were traditionally more with the south, although that view can be skewed because back then, Ireland was one nation as part of the UK. I would say Glasgow's Irish links are more with Ulster, which is probably where the sectarian similarities come from.

We did have the Orange and Green split, but before my time and I don't think it was ever as severe. The Orange Lodge marches and day out in Southport. Paddy's Day being celebrated. Both by all. Others may have different accounts.

Then there is the dynamic of Liverpool being a major port and one from which many Europeans, emigrated to America from. A lot either couldn't afford the final leg or just decided to stay in Liverpool. And let's not forget the North Welsh influence, with the city unofficially sometimes referred to as the capital of the northern part of the Principality.

Our unique accent has been influenced by all of those factors, although when you watch older footage, it has gradually become stronger and you can tell someone from the north compared to someone from the south of the city.

We've always been a diverse and welcoming city. Maybe not the largest, but the oldest Afro-Caribbean and Chinese communities in the UK, as far as I am aware.

In terms of football, there was a time and there is reading on how Everton were the Catholic club and Liverpool the Protestant club. Aside from the 80s when those half and half bobble hats were the go, with a lot of Everton wearing Celtic and Liverpool Rangers, which wasn't strictly regimented, I've never viewed it like that. It was probably historically linked to a large proportion of Irish Catholics settling in the north end.

I don't think you can make comparisons with Glasgow.

He exaggerates the accent to be “funnier” just like McGuinness.

Neither work.

McGuinness sounds like George Formby back from the dead.

Turned out nice again…ahhh the hilarity when he screeched - Mutherrrrr!

Although my family back home often refer to people as 'fuckin wools', the latest being the lardy based darts phenom Luke Littler.

Where's Mill Road btw?

It diluted significantly, mainly due to the usual factors (geographical dispersal, slum clearance, inter-marriage, the rise of the labour movement etc) which weren't as prevalent in Glasgow. Also there was significant migration from Northern Ireland to Scotland in the 20th century.

Sectarian attitudes still prevail in some communities especially amongst older generations. I grew up in the Dingle and there were still remnants then - separate schools, egging the marchers on the 4th July etc.

It's all pretty stupid really isn't it? Find the people who are socially and economically most like you and hate them for a subjective reason.

I aahsmedly did a bit of egging and was chased through the enogs of the Holy Land by a couple of meaty pissed up flag bearers. Thankfully I was quick at 12 and they were bogged down by sashes and bellies

The only people perpetuating existence of "The Wool" seems to me to be the "Wools" themselves.

Even my 17 year old (who himself technically qualifies as a wool) would say he's heard it at least once every time he's been over. And we've been going every home game since he was 4.

Mostly he's heard it from his grandad and wider family tbh!

I don't think I need to change anything in my post its not too difficult to understand.

I try to live by "treat others the way I'd like to be treated."

I like to be treated with kindness, respect, and empathy where warranted so it behooves me to treat others the exact same way.

I would certainly find myself disagreeing with others on whatever the political topic of the day is but I also have to constantly remind myself that:

1) Not everyone thinks the way I do.
2) Not everyone has had the same life experiences I have.
3) Behind every opinion is a person.

I was "chosen" 25 years ago. I didn't choose Everton.

It took me years to understand (and have explained to me) what people in Liverpool have been through and why they believe in what they believe. A complete 180 from what I grew up with. A lot of my fellow Evertonians have been patient with this guy from Texas and it has been greatly appreciated.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that when I went to England this past holiday and went to Goodison to watch us play Chelsea (and to Manchester to watch us play City,) I felt like I was with family.

I doubt I'd ever visit your home state, mostly because all my ex's live in Texas.

Mark, my Presbyterian Grandfather, from Belfast, never had any time for religion, politics or the Orange Lodge. He banned my mother from attending the marches when she said she wanted to.

My dad was Catholic and although as late as the 70s, because he was Catholic, pressure from his 6 sisters resulted in a visit from the Priest from St Christophers in Speke reminding her that all her children would have to be christened Catholic. Which we all were.

You know me, I don't do the wool thing. At Brentford, you commented on how many non Liverpool accents you could hear amongst the Evertonians. More and more people move away than previously (look at us) and then have children who grew up elsewhere but still support Everton as fervently as we do. It doesn't bother me where an Everton supporter lives or comes from.

I have an affiliation with Texas, having worked for a few companies HQ'd there. I was in the UK, but Texas was mothership. I spent quite a bit of time in San Antonio.

The delivery men would haul the bags of coal onto their backs. Their backs were protected by sheep's wool.

I honestly never hear the word "wool" at the game these days, but I will admit to seeing it regularly posted on here - Nearly always from you. I know it is mainly in jest, but I can't think of another poster besides yourself, who regularly uses the term.

If after spending your hard earned to travel and buy a ticket, a fellow blue asks you what it has to do with you. You are better off giving a conversation like that a wide berth anyway.

“Small section”? Let's not beat around the bush, it was a huge chunk of the Street End and Park End (heard all aroud the ground in each nook and cranny), followed by similar to the tune of “Brown Girl ln the Ring”, and then “N …. N …. N …. oi oi oi”

You are more than welcome Mr. Fox (155). You keep posting that banal 70’s stuff, but don’t be surprised when someone feels the need to reply or on second thoughts it might be best to leave you alone in those older times.

They were immediately rounded on and ‘verbally chastised'. The fruit was dropped and stomped on and it was made clear that any more of that behaviour and they'd be made to leave.

I was very proud of that reaction. I have no way of knowing, but it seemed very much the majority view. You did hear chanting but it seemed limited to small pockets to me, and it has always pissed me off that we have been publically labelled as a racist bunch by the likes of Les Ferdinand.

Great times to be an Everton supporter, but absolutely not for that reason.

I wasn't at all questioning your Evertonian credentials. I hear it all the time – I'm obviously more sensitive than you to it.

But I'll stop banging on about it, no probs.

Really though. WTAF are they on about???/p>

At least they gave us a good discussion thread that has literally gone everywhere!!

It never did get wiped out, as your post shows. But something did change in the. broader culture, I think. It did become unacceptable in the main to target black players.

I think that Rock Against Racism and the Anti-Nazi League made a difference for some, as well as many voices in music who were highly influential (Weller, Strummer, Bono, Suggs, two-tone). I also believe that the 1981 riots made many aware, perhaps for the first time, of the very deep inequalities in society.

The number of black players also increased at a steady rate though not at Everton. It zoomed in the 90's on the way to the 43% of all PL players that we see today.

Cliff Marshall, born in Sefton and raised in Toxteth I think, was the first player with two black parents to play for us in the first of just eight games in January 1975, although his name did not appear in the matchday programme. His accounts towards the end of his life of racism in and around footy in the 1970s are harrowing.

Not a single black player played for us in seasons ending 1977/1994. Remember Dion Dublin whose “imminent” transfer to us was blocked by a board member at the last minute?

But the loud and long chants of "Everton are White", the “song” to the tune of “Brown Girl ln the Ring”, and “N …. N …. N …. oi oi oi” all but disappeared. I suspect, Si, that you never heard them. If memory serves, they disappeared a couple of years before we won the cup in 1984. Yet it would not be until September 10, 1994, that Dan Amokachi first ran onto the Old Lady’s pitch.

There were always knobheads and there are always “incidents” as Si and Danny point, and Goodison derbies where Barnes got a shit load of abuse. But the days of “N …. N …. N …. oi oi oi” as something “sung” in many pockets of the ground had long gone.

I’d be really interested to see if I need to be corrected on my thoughts and memories and whether there are others who also feel that the very worst days of this were behind us before we walked down Howard’s Way.

There were bananas thrown on the pitch and there were chants from Everton fans. It's less reported that there was still a number of RS fans who also threw bananas.

I remember arguing on the 60 bus with a red from school who intended to boo John Barnes and throw bananas at him. He was quite proud in school on the Monday that he had done so. Prick.

John Barnes's autobiography.

But you're right, Liam, we have our morons and Barnes was treated shockingly by a minority who could just as easily have been pounced on by the sort of people who turned on the scum next to Si.

Anyone remember those grinning post-pubescents singing their Moyes paedophile "song" at Villa away?

For our generation who saw both pre- and post-Heysel, it's difficult to completely convey the seismic effect it had.

Then there was the year of the Blackstuff Merseyside finals. But Heysel changed everything, not just the killing but the way those twats gloated at us when we were kicked out of Europe.

Everton kicked off in the Kop when there was one of those songs too many and it was nasty after our second after the clown fucked up.

There were regular flare ups and you definitely wouldn't go into the wrong area. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection between geographic segregation and racism.

My best mate, whose family moved out; spent his early life in Toxteth. It was out towards and just off Smithdown Road. Which, I believe is an invisible boundary. One side L8, across the road L15 (Wavertree). His mum cleaned in a Snooker Club nearby and used to let us in to play pool.

The small things in life!!

To be fair to John Barnes he has been quite open about it himself.

Not trying to make excuses for Everton fans but, as with all these type of things, there's a lot of subtlety and nuance that gets lost.

A bit the wrong way around, I think you'll find. Rangers were founded first and completely non sectarian at that time. Unfortunately I have to say that Hibs then have a lot to do what happened next.

Hibs sent a few committee members over to Glasgow to speak with the local Irish community and priests to persuade them to follow Hibernian's lead of giving the Glasgow Irish mob a football team.

Celtic were the result and slowly those Catholic Rangers supporters headed over to the Celtic side and the sectarianism started.

In fact, one of the first, if not the first games Celtic played against Rangers resulted in a Celtic win with the Celtic team consisting of many Hibs “guest” players.

Hibs did exactly the same in Dundee and Dundee Hibernian, now Dundee United was born. Hibs then tried it on up in Aberdeen but were chased out of the city!!

Yes, Hibs have a lot to answer for!

I knew a Rangers fan back in the day who always said to me that he hated Hibs more than Celtic. I see why now. I'm going to have a right go at Pat Nevin next time I see him.

To echo Paul, I didn't know that either. As an Irish Catholic myself, my retort to Republican Celtic/Hibs fans today is “If you hate Britain so much, go back to Ireland,” but I guess in 1875 it was all the same thing.

But one thing that seems to pass over many of these people's heads is that many of the Irish republican leaders pre independence were Protestants.

I just wonder back in 1875 as now how many of these die-hard Hibs, Celtic, Rangers and Hearts fans with their sectarian sensibilities can be found regularly attending Mass or service on Sundays. And how many know the liturgical differences between the two?

Just seems to me like people finding an excuse to cause trouble.

But that was probably due to knocking around with some Bhoys whilst at University. Would love to read more about this.

A lot of your "wool stuff" is funny and done without a trace of anger
Its also reasonable for you to be more sensitive than me. Your accent may occasionally draw a comment from one of the handful of Morons who follow us around. Mine will simply go unnoticed.

It's funny you mention Celtic “Catholic” players. I remember Tommy Burns the Celtic player and very practising Catholic, having a right go at his Celtic teammates after a particularly nasty Old Firm game.

Before, during and after the game, Celtic players were inciting the Rangers support – though let's be honest, their players were as bad – by crossing themselves at every opportunity.

Burns came out after slamming his teammates stating half weren't even Catholic and those who were hadn't been to church since they'd been baptised!

Regarding the Hibs fans of today
I spend my time travelling between Liverpool and Edinburgh depending on home gamed.
If Everton are away I'm at Easter Road and vice versa. The other week I was at the United game and missed Hibs at home v Celtic because I hate hearing yhe shite from Celtic supporters.
Last Saturday was easy. Hibs were away and we played West Ham so I'm at Goodison
I'm Catholic, my son-in-law Protestant but a mad Hibbee season ticket holder all his life. So many Protestant Hibbees in the actual Hibs Club.
Personally I cannot remember the last time I saw an Irish tricolour at a home game, if there were it must only been one so really unnoticeable
Hibs are looked at as the Catholic team, however, the support is very different from Celtic religion wise hence the lack of religious nonsense chanting and singing

My use of the word 'mob' is certainly not as you imply it

'Mob' in my speech is more like 'crowd'. I use it when I speak, for example, to someone about my family.

“Meeting my mob tomorrow for a piss up.” “Good support by our mob yesterday at Brighton.”

Always found it used in these contexts by a lot of scousers. Apologies if it upset you.

Link

I can only spot one tricolour in the crowd. I think the Hibs keeper has one tied around his neck.

But you see the odd one or two draped at Goodison. They could just be Irish supporters, like ours.

Nothing like Celtic and Rangers, who turn it into an atmosphere based on Northern Ireland sectarianism. Id take a punt on most of them not having an understanding of what they're singing about.

Look out for our own Alan Stubbs and a young John McGinn. I would have liked to see him at Everton.

You don't even see as much of that in the North anymore, they've moved on. But I'd have to leave that to our Irish cohort.

Are you sure Dion Dublin's transfer to Everton was blocked at the last minute by a Board member?

Howard Kendall always maintained that the reason he never came was because Everton wouldn't give him the money to buy him.

Obviously I'm biased but Hearts are possibly a bit more biased, however, saying that it is a bit more like Everton and Liverpool in that families are split as is school mates.

Unfortunately like our derbies segregation has increased shite at the games. Fortunately next day we're all mates in the pub!

It was same same the other week after beating Hearts in the derby. Sunshine on Leith was belted out with the team shoulder to shoulder facing the “Terracing” – where my and all the families season tickets are. It's also on YouTube.

I reckon it's the best footy song going, head and shoulders above that dirge from across the Park!

I always liked Fields of Athenry, going back to when I was a kid listening to my parents' ritual of playing Irish or Country and Western on a Sunday Morning.

I would have like us to adopt that, but then they went and ruined it with their adaptation of Fields of Anfield Road, which they've now blocked off with that new loft conversion.

They've ruined the place with all these shite wine bars and fancy ale pubs. It used to be a bit like Great Homer Street, Scottie and Dock Road, pubs every corner.

I always say they filmed all the Star Trek movies there with all the locals used as extras for Klingons and other aliens. Saved the producers a fortune not having to pay for make up and special effects. Wife included by the way!

I see another story on here about Man City and Man Utd academies... is there any suggestion of anything at Everton or impacting an Everton player? Not that I can see...

I remember this Evertonian singing The Fields of Goodison Park, one night Danny, and I asked him why would he sing this song after it's been adopted by Liverpudlians?

Those red bastards in Ned Kelly's robbed that song off me, he said "I was singing it well before those thieving fuckers!"

He told me he followed Ireland, and he'd had his own version of the song for years, and was fuming when they robbed it.

Kendall, Harvey and Ball…
And Dixie — The Greatest of them All

But I suppose it's been lonely around Goodison Park since Boxing Day 1999.

Funnily enough I've only recently come across that song. I have to say it's a cracker. Can't stop playing it.

Dave A (197): Thanks for that Dave and I might well have been misinformed mate. The information came from a GOT article that I thought I bookmarked, but no. I tried to look it up with no luck but I did find a GOT article on "Dion Dublin - Worst ever pundit?"

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/dion-dublin-worst-ever-pundit.26302/

It could still be the case Dave that the board or enough of them blocked the transfer by not giving Howard the money.

By the way, Dave, there's an excellent new book just out on post-war Liverpool but with a real focus on the 1980s.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Liverpool-Unmaking-Britain-Sam-Wetherell/dp/1801108889

Deep breath, you or anyone will not like the opening sentence of the blurb: "Few cities in the world are as famous as Liverpool, the home of the modern world's most celebrated rock group and of a legendary football team".

Despite that it is a lovely book.

John K (192): I am really enjoying your posts on here - Leith and Liverpool is not a bad life.

I've always felt that "mob" is on the derogatory side of life, although I get your point about family etc. or even the "Hounslow mob" who used to follow Pauline Murray and Penetration (a band!) all over the land.

The first recorded uses of "mob" are in the late seventeenth century when it was very deliberately used in a very derogatory way to stigmatise and categorise protests by people who would later be called the “working class”.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/2020/06/08/everton-are-white-everton-racism-and-the-era-of-change/

They began to show video examples of online idiots voicing right wing, particularly vile and nasty Nazi type views. The first video was a scouse lad. We then had a discussion.

The second video was another scouse lad. This time he had a mask on and the vileness he was spewing was beyond anything I've ever heard, racial mutilating and murdering etc. He also had an Everton top on.

We were then supposed to have a discussion and I was the first to speak and I pulled the presenters about the fact their examples could lead to prejudice in themselves. I in no way wanted to undermine the toxicity on show, just to point out a bit of a theme.

I live in Yorkshire and am used to the normal Scouse stereotypes 'mind your wallet', all that nonsense. But this I found quite dangerous. In fact, during the videos, everyone in the room was looking at me.

The woman presenters ended up agreeing that her examples were quite damming to scousers, but not before she said 'well we just got them randomly online'

I was unsure whether to say anything about it – I didn't want to affect the seriousness of the subject. In the end, I just had to as it was something that I found offensive. I had no doubt that it was unintentional, but just showed to me how easily things can be misinterpreted and prejudices reinforced.

Outside of football I don't think there's a more inclusive or cosmopolitan city in the world than Liverpool.

In my honest opinion.

And in my experience.

It's only at the game I experience otherwise.