First, thanks to everyone who has posted on the website forums in response to the previous update. All your comments have been read and considered. Further thanks to those who offered their services. Again, all noted; we are compiling a database of skills and intend to be in individual contact with each of you. Obviously, this may take some time.
Next, we are trying to set up the trust in such a manner that allows maximum possible input from people living long distances from Goodison Park. We expect a large proportion of members to be living in various parts of Britain and overseas. Tony I'Anson, for example, is one of many Merseysiders whose home is now more than 200 miles away ? in Scotland.
Accordingly, we hope to make full use of modern technology so that Evertonians from around the world can participate in Trust Everton as much as possible. With further developments in technology, this should become easier in the future.
Since the last update, we have had two meetings with officers of Supporters Direct (the body that assists and monitors supporter?s trusts). One was in London, the other in Liverpool.
We have covered a wide range of issues. There are the "nuts and bolts" issues of how an Everton supporters trust would operate best, given that it will have members around the world.
Then there are the issues particular to our club. Obviously, we read with interest the latest set of accounts, noting the debts we have and the interest we pay each year to commercial companies for loans etc.
People ask: What is the point of Trust Everton? What are you hoping to achieve?
Basically, the answer is: To help secure the future of the club.
To this end, we want to put forward the proposal that Trust Everton ? through money raised ? should own and secure assets for the benefit of Everton Football Club (we are NOT talking about fees or wages for players).
In simple terms, the club currently has approx. £45m of debt to 3rd party commercial financial companies and pays significant interest. To protect the club, the Trust would simply like to see the debt loaned by the trust and these assets secured by the trust.
Investors in the trust would receive a dividend each year and know their investment was safe and the club would pay a reduced rate of interest ? a ?win-win? for both sides.
We shall be contacting the club chief executive to see if he is open to this idea and if the club would prefer to take a loan from the fans rather than the bank You can rest assured that such a task would be carried out for the trust by people with the necessary skills and experience. We shall keep you informed.
Trust Everton is a work in progress. We ask Evertonians for support and patience.
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:21:39
2 Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:33:23
If anyone wants to get in touch direct for now, please email firstname.lastname@example.org
You will get an automated reply to confirm we have received your email and we are collating all contacts for now.
3 Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:37:44
Why am I wrong?
4 Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:33:27
A question though, to be able to secure these loans isn't the Trust going to have to prove that it can pay back the £45m ?
Are there any more details we can read up on ?
5 Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:53:55
6 Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:56:39
7 Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:23:11
8 Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:12:29
There also need to be some clear targets of the Trust, i.e:
1. Securing shares
2. New stadium/renovation fund
3. Clearing the club's debt
I also think it would be a very good idea to have a website as well as just an email system to provide updates, minutes of meetings, etc with each registered supporter having their own password or PIN to log on.
You're doing an excellent job so far, keep up the listening to fans!
9 Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:31:18
Do you have a target with respect to the number of potential members of the trust, the amount to be raised and the timescale in raising the funds. Also do you have any feel for the actual value of the entire equity of everton FC?
10 Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:36:20
11 Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:37:16
12 Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:09:38
If anyone has any suggestions of targets to achieve (#9 Matthew) and how to achieve them, please post on here for now for all to see and debate.
We are reading everything, although not responding immediately to all posts, given that there's lots going on.
13 Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:15:08
14 Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:24:19
Also, how do you contact Evertonians that don't have internet access? What about 'celebrities' that are unlikely to go on websites like ToffeeWeb? Sir Terry Leahy, Paul McCartney, John Parrott, Matt Dawson, Dave Vitty, even ex-players like Duncan Ferguson, Joe Royle, Howard Kendall. How do we get them involved? If they are interested, they surely can provide a use (financial)?. Do fans want people like that involved? I'm not one to discriminate, so if they are fans, then why not?
But one person, one vote, everyone is equal, but donations welcome!
15 Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:31:39
16 Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:45:25
17 Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:57:47
Otherwise it's a case of (blatant Life of Brian steal here)
The Peoples Front of Judea
The Judean Peoples Front
The Popular Judean Peoples Front etc etc
18 Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:11:22
BTW - if either of you guys are heading to Stamford Bridge on Saturday - shout and we could plan for a Blue future in the local boozer.
19 Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:53:23
20 Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:26:47
I think most of these groups are of the same opinion, keeping this board in power is not the way to go..by loaning them money from supporters keeps fat lying billy on his birch longer than is necessary.
Creative accounting will be the order of the day which you can bet on. But that won't matter as long as Evertonian's who gave their money get it back in dividends. With this board it will be heavily abused if they went for it..so I say with this board no thank you.
21 Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:57:35
I'm not going John, sorry.
22 Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:09:56
23 Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:32:17
24 Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:48:26
Surely such a sum should be used to buy equity from the Kenwright team. Ideally you should aim to acquire a minimum 51% controlling stake which values the club at approx £90 million, close to BK's apparent valuation.
With the existing smaller shareholders presumably supporters, the club would really become the People's Club. As BK has been searching for such an investor for years, this scenario should be a dream deal for both parties.
25 Posted 15/02/2011 at 21:10:00
26 Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:32:35
I don't think anyone in their right mind could seriously think the fans would be able to raise £45 million pound
27 Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:39:15
28 Posted 16/02/2011 at 00:12:19
In terms of building up the £45M, I'm not sure what the initial plan is but, for those wondering, let's just do some sums: 30,000 (world-wide supporters) £250 per year over 5 years = £41.25M including approx 5% pa average interest (just for example).
OK, some fans won't pledge anything, some fans can't afford anything. Others can and will pledge £1,000 pa for 5 years. Others will pledge well in excess of this, particularly some ex-players, businesses and professionals. Just say...
500 pledge £5,000 pa for 5 years (= £12.5M + interest);
3,000 pledge £1,000 pa for 5 years (= £15M +interest);
3,000 pledge £500 pa for 5 years (= £7.5M + interest);
5,000 pledge £100 pa for 5 years (= £2.5M + interest).
I think (with average 5% interest) this again comes to £41.25M (by coincidence).
(I've done this in my head so, please, no comments about my lousy maths if it's wrong).
This is 11,500 supporters or perhaps includes supporter groups etc. Ok, just playing with figures but... not an impossible task!
Keep on keeping on, Tony and Mike
29 Posted 16/02/2011 at 01:08:49
30 Posted 16/02/2011 at 01:37:10
The only way to have influence in shareholding is to hold the majority of shares and I don't see any of the current major shareholders being willing to sell up.
31 Posted 16/02/2011 at 02:56:46
Look what happenned in Egypt, Mubarak didn't want to go, but in the end, he had no choice.
32 Posted 16/02/2011 at 03:04:13
So the £45M would be better used as an investment, even interest free, say to improve a stand in the stadium. That way the Club get an immediate capital injection of £45M as opposed to £4.5M.
As Goodison is ?valued? at £8M, the Trust could even buy the ground and use the balance to improve it.
Would you rather listen to someone who wants to give you £45M cash in hand or someone who wants to give you the possibility of getting £4.5M?
33 Posted 16/02/2011 at 03:07:45
34 Posted 16/02/2011 at 03:38:43
35 Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:43:49
I do understand the eagerness to resolve Everton's financial situation and return them to glory; however, this resolution is only beneficial in the immediate term and does nothing to secure the long-term financial future. The issue has to be dealt with at the root of the cause and not by "fire fighting".
Good luck in your cause.
36 Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:03:21
It?s only supposition on my part, but I suspect that the club will prefer debt to traditional creditors whose decisions are purely commercially motivated over debt to supporters who often have other motivations. Will reduced interests rates be worth the pain that being in debt to ? currently ? angry supporters will almost inevitably bring?
My principal concern at this point is over Trust Everton?s mission, from which all the trust?s activities flow.
Football is a sport and a game but it?s also ? currently ? a product. No product, not even the EPL, lasts for ever. Once the product EPL goes off the market or weakens (the bubble bursts) will Trust Everton need a new mission?
Personally, I would ideally like to see a more specific mission that will also stand up in the post EPL world and ? of course ? explicitly involves Everton fans and/or trust members.
If none of that makes sense I?m sorry. Wednesday?s my day off and I?ve just got up from my lie-in and only had one coffee?
37 Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:16:31
Still I'm fully supportive and will be contacting Tony, Mike later to both join and offer what little help/support I can.
38 Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:23:10
My email's in drafts and goes off today.
39 Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:38:48
(Need more coffee).
40 Posted 16/02/2011 at 08:48:41
However, I agree with many of the posters above that the current board can't be 'trusted' to 'manage' our club and thus the £45M raised (let's be optimistic) towards debt won't be sufficient as the debt increases due to mismanagement.
I'd MUCH rather our monies raised goes towards tangible assets e.g. buying Goodison Park or Finch Farm so that a) we have genuine hold over the board and they're forced to dialogue with us; b) there is a something material that Trust Everton own i.e. the monies are invested rather than loaned (are we trying to create a 'bank'? Very ambitious if so) and c) there is a vehicle set up for the long term that allows people to withdraw their money if required. The reason I suggest this is that if we create something commercially viable we may even one day get non Everton investors as the vehicle provides a stable investment
Good luck chaps ? am impressed you're following through with your initial vision.
41 Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:18:31
Buy Goodison out from under them, off who ever has the mortgage, then Finch Farm. Then Shares, then we have a stick to wack them with and an official stance to do it. Then the debt.
The assets first, then the negative assets, which is what the debt is(?).
More power to your elbow Tony and Mike. Spread the word.
42 Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:57:24
My understanding is that supporters trusts, in place of simply buying shares, actual set aims and objectives to secure protected assets for the good of the club and the trust.
This is not limited to one proposed aim, it could be many and it is actually the members of the trust who vote on the proposals and dictate the policy and direction in true democratic fashion.
Finch Farm has been mentioned by many, this currently costs Everton approx £1.5m per season; if the trust could secure Finch Farm on a commercial basis and perhaps charge the club only £1m this would be a win-win situation with the trust having available funds to look at other "protected asset" proposals which could, or could not, include elements of the current debt being paid to third party organisations, but this would always be on a commercial footing and would always be voted upon by the membership, many of which could be outside the UK so it's refreshing to see the proposed use of technology to facilitate this.
I think it's misleading for some to jump the gun and assume the trust would simply be no more than a device to bail out the hapless board through taking on the current debt burden.
Well done guys, keep up the excellent work; as someone who has undertaken a little "extra curricular" work, as no more than a fan myself, I know how much time and effort you must be putting in.
43 Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:57:12
44 Posted 16/02/2011 at 10:18:29
Kase #40, the Trust would basically operate like a charity, you can put money in but you won't be able to draw it out or sell your 'share' if it becomes commercially viable.
45 Posted 16/02/2011 at 10:18:00
Lots of ideas above regarding owning Goodison or holding some sort of sway at the club centre around a trust having some equity in the club, which as I understand it the trust wouldn't. It would simply be a loan from supporters rather than banks.
I think a supporters trust is a great idea, but would people donate knowing that they were simply giving Kenwright exactly what he is acussed of on these boards? ie Investment that does not dilute his shareholding and allows him to hold onto the club via loans without generating any actual investment.
My own opinion is that the trust should gain some equity in the club through a new issue of shares to the trust (diluted ownership in an asset of greater value). Could Kenwright seriously reject it? His stance has always been that he won't hand over ownership to anyone who won't look after his club - well its the fans' club so a share issue to fans would have to be ok with him wouldn't it?
Apologies if I've got it all wrong - I'm no financial whizz.
46 Posted 16/02/2011 at 11:52:03
This would also more likely become a debt restructuring exercise for the board and generate some small revenue in the short term;, however, it is not a substainable long term business model. Operating cost will continue to rise and the debt would grow again.
The Trust needs to have a voice and that means equity in the club. It then needs to work with the current custodians towards reducing the wagesturnover ratio substantially, whilst also looking to grow the Brand locally and globally.
47 Posted 16/02/2011 at 12:51:53
I think buying GP as some suggest would be a good move, but, 'scuse me if I'm being thick, but if I pay off a mate's mortgage, the deeds will be sent to my mate, not me.
So, unless Everton Football Club Co Ltd would be willing to transfer the title to the Trust, then the Trust own nothing and have no control over how the reduced debt (ie, increased capacity to borrow) is used. The club could simply remortgage GP and we'd be back to square one...
48 Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:17:19
49 Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:24:24
Also the rights issue would have to be for the same number of shares issued at present so we'd need more like £90m unless some of the other shareholders bought into it too.
50 Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:32:09
#50 ? As for the rights issue, any monies raised by the club, whether from the Trust or elsewhere via a rights issue, could be used in whatever way the club see fit, unless the Trust gains more than 50% of new global share capital, which at present is not either financially viable or likely to happen, even if the monies could be raised. Also, I'm sure you could have a rights issue of say 1 share for every 2 existing, it doesn't have to be on a one for one.
51 Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:37:44
52 Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:54:36
Shareholders holding at least 5% of the shares can require directors to call a general meeting (the previous threshold was 10%).
That means you will need to have support from 1750 shares. As there are 10764 shares not owned by the Kenwright gang of 4 (including Carter).
53 Posted 16/02/2011 at 14:02:47
54 Posted 16/02/2011 at 14:11:23
Re £45m, that's the level of debt to third party commercial financial companies, and yes, it would be a huge task to raise that sum. We should have phrased that part of the piece better; we rushed it out due to pressure of time. Apologies. We are initially thinking of the trust owning an asset, which, for sake of argument, could cost say £10m; now that is achievable.
Paul, No 53, there is a lot of things a well structured trust could do. Vital to get it set up in the right way though. All points raised to be addressed in next update, which will be as soon as possible.
John, No 18, please send your email to the TrustEverton address given by Tony.
55 Posted 16/02/2011 at 14:20:56
56 Posted 16/02/2011 at 14:26:16
57 Posted 16/02/2011 at 15:19:06
Tony #52, because there would be conditions and a contract on the use of the money by the Club.
58 Posted 16/02/2011 at 16:38:24
These are long threads and they're full of information, argument and counter argument.
For you forthcoming website, it may be useful - if not already planned - to prepare an FAQ section which could be built up based, in part, on the questions posed, and answers provided, here.
59 Posted 16/02/2011 at 16:54:09
60 Posted 16/02/2011 at 18:07:42
Good to know.
61 Posted 16/02/2011 at 18:17:09
P.S. If you need help with this, please let me know.
I'd be happy to do a manual trawl and pull out questions and prospective answers (to be verified).
If any data miners out there know a better way, shout it out, eh?
All the best - Dave.
62 Posted 16/02/2011 at 18:03:57
I'm sure that this has completely taken over your lives in recent months. It is truly a massive undertaking that you're embarking on, so I'm glad the responses so far seem to mirror your enthusiasm.
As more and more ideas, and potential objectives evolve through this whole process of discussion and updates etc, I'm sure even more Evertonians will become enthused about the possibilities. Then, by the time it is launched, the substance and momentum will carry us all forward..... Best of Luck and thanks for your great efforts in trying to get this off the ground.
63 Posted 16/02/2011 at 18:59:24
Also, if anyone would like to do some research on Internet video conferencing, that would be useful too. (Suitability, pricing, experience of using etc) as we will be making extensive use of this once up and running.
Tom (62) you are quite accurate in your assumption. My Scottish line dancing colleagues will be missing me, and as for my pet haggis.....
64 Posted 16/02/2011 at 20:27:45
65 Posted 16/02/2011 at 22:09:19
I think it's important that we're not prematurely negative on this premise, as I don't think it's an issue. You would be able to vote on how the funds are used. The Trust will be an entirely independent body, perhaps connected via a share-holding, but nevertheless representative of the fanbase itself. I think if anything, that helps fortify the fanbase against inept regimes as it gives them a collective voice with some bargaining power..... otherwise we're just a collection of individuals moaning on forums like this.
66 Posted 16/02/2011 at 22:28:13
67 Posted 16/02/2011 at 22:47:32
68 Posted 17/02/2011 at 01:45:18
Yet "a loan of £19m from the club's owner, Ellis Short, was capitalised ? or transferred into shares ? in November 2009, and the Texan has since injected interest-free loans of £22.4m and £6m and promised his continued support."
I'm really interested in this loan capitalization. Can someone explain how it works for them and does not fall foul of any rights issue rules? Is this the sort of investment BK has been seeking 24/7 for Everton? Making it more amazing no-one has even taken a little bite...
Is this a model for underwriting investment actions by Trust Everton that would allow them to build share equity over time? Equity that is commensurate with the amount of money invested in the trust by the fans, and resulting in permanent (proportionate) ownership of (a part of) the Club? Surely this has to be the way forward???
69 Posted 17/02/2011 at 06:52:36
70 Posted 17/02/2011 at 08:20:25
You are missing the whole point. Yes I know that some one has to say... "Yeah, but what about xxxxxx and xxxxxx?"
TrustEverton is the name and 'trust' in all of its forms is the game. This is why they are taking a long time to set it up (fail to prepare ? prepare to fail).
It is, or I hope will, be unscrupulous shyster (and future) proof(ed) ? no more, "I'm bored with this question" / suspending shareholders rights etc etc.
I only wish this was started 10 yrs ago.
In real terms (and Aussie money) what have I got to lose??
$16 per month... 50c per day... 30pence... 5 bob in old money.
I wasn't, aren't, never will be rich, nobody who bangs a clock is, or ever will be, the last time my wages were paid in England was 20 years ago. Even then I had a jar that every day took 20 pence pieces I had as lose change.
That's what the minimum contribution works out to. Get over it and dig behind the sofa, you miserable sod.
71 Posted 17/02/2011 at 09:09:57
Yet again we see that, Arsenal apart (who benefitted hugely from cashing in on their Highbury asset), we are in a better financial position than all the other top clubs. The difference between us and them, is the attitude/position of the club's owner.
72 Posted 17/02/2011 at 10:18:55
73 Posted 17/02/2011 at 16:24:37
I've just emailed email@example.com with a list of questions, suggestions and observations made by posters on the three TrustEverton forums.
This was a manual trawl of the posts and tries to group together ? for example, questions posed with answers subsequently provided by other posters.
I hope that, along with any advice you can receive from Supporters Direct, it can help provide the basis of an FAQ section for your forthcoming website.
It may also help to highlight some questions which have been posed but not yet answered in these forums.
Good luck to you all. Holidays are calling, and ? thanks to EDSA's Steve Heneghan ? so is the Sunderland game for me and my folks... they're both ex-season ticket holders, both 80 years old and both very excited about going back to Goodison.
Maybe see some of you there.
74 Posted 17/02/2011 at 21:55:05
The idea posted earlier of owning the ground would be a solution that would suit both the trust and the present board, as like it or not they are unlikely to be going anywhere soon. If the trust where to own the ground and be responsible for its upkeep (maybe leasing it back to the club, an extra cost to the club but removing the cost of its maintenance) and look to improve it this could increase the income for the club through improved hospitality and eventually extra capacity.
It would also solve the problem and associated costs of searching for another site and finally give us some direction for the future, knowing we have committed to staying at Goodison. The trust would own a valuable asset as well that with phased improvement will become even more valuable over time.
Who knows with an upgraded stadium we may even become attractive to somebody with real money to invest.
75 Posted 17/02/2011 at 22:15:09
76 Posted 18/02/2011 at 13:22:20
Still, as Voltaire said: 'No snowflake in an avalanche ever felt responsible'. If everyone on these boards could give even a few hours of their time to you guys, imagine how fast this could move on.
As for 'our website', from the day I've paid my subs, I won't be calling it anything else. Promise.
77 Posted 19/02/2011 at 09:24:05
78 Posted 19/02/2011 at 16:21:33
79 Posted 20/02/2011 at 01:13:33
80 Posted 20/02/2011 at 13:13:03
I'd rather see low fees (which are still sufficient to make the project work) and have the freedom to contribute more when possible.
That might cause issues re revenue projections for the trust and, hence, make strategic planning more difficult, but I feel it would get more people on-board and involved.
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