I have never, repeat never, been an unqualified supporter of Moyes. I have always called it how I see it, credit where it's due and complaints likewise. On many occasions I have registered my distaste, and even disgust, on aspects of EFC as influenced by David Moyes. I recognise (as some don't) that one can't honestly beat someone up regularly for not achieving more when, under his tenure, our team have been transformed from regular relegation fodder that aspired to mediocrity, into a team finishing 4, 5, 5, 6 & 7.
League performance is like a ratchet in some people's minds, in that it can only go up, and indeed it must. It ignores the efforts of other clubs. By any reasonable analysis, had we sat and pondered on our league potential 8 years ago, the idea of finishing 4th or 5th would have been fantasy. Those who deny such are being ridiculous. We have to acknowledge that the ratchet has moved upwards by 8 to 10 places in our average league standing. The fact that this has been achieved within the financial straights that we all know about has to be acknowledged.
But statistics can be dangerous things. Football involves passion and emotion. This brings with it a fuzzy logic and partly explains the (arguably) illogical reaction of some fans to their team's relative success or failure, or to other things in & around their club that drive opinions.
One such example is the events of June - October 2008. It was in this period that David Moyes was expected to (and indeed indicated as such) that he would sign his new contract with Everton. It is, I believe, unarguable that his prolonged dithering over a contract worth best part of £4M a year as a basic salary (or 5% of our total turnover) led to confusion, demotivation and poor performances from the team. I wrote at the time that I viewed his behaviour as unacceptable and that a strong CEO would have dismissed him. He should have been sacked then; that remains my view.
Moyes has many supporters within the game. This is understandable given his "performance" in turning Everton into regular European contenders. But one of the things which has niggled me for a long time is just how much of what's happened has been down to him. To disregard his impact would be utterly ridiculous. But closer examination of what's truly happened is required. What follows is mine and, I hope, explains why I feel the way I do and hold the opinion that I do.
When Moyes first arrived, his philosophy seemed to be one of trying to win every game. Sure, we came unstuck a few times, but we often just "went for it" to coin a phrase that I like. There are many such examples, but one that I wish to recall again: It was in October 2002 and we played Man Utd at Old Trafford. The result isn't the important thing; we lost 3-0 to 3 goals (1 pen) in injury time. It was the way Everton played that was extraordinary. At that time, Man Utd were well into their pomp and we were broadly shite. But that night, we went for them from the first whistle. Thomas Gravesen and Li Tie were magnificent. Almost every ass was forward. We took the game to them throughout. Moyes brought Rooney on with about 20 mins left and he nearly won it for us before the misfortune of the final few mins. But the way we played, attacking, offensive, positive, in their face, has always left me wondering... WTF?
Somewhere along the line, that philosophy vanished. I think we learned to live with that for a while, especially when 4-5-1 and Marcue Bent delivered Champions League football to Goodison. Slowly and surely, Moyes has been allowed to rebuild Everton. Regardless of the situation right now, we do have the best, strongest, most skillful and most valuable team for probably 25 years. So what's going on?
I have a recurring thought that David Moyes doesn't actually have the tactical acumen that we thought he had, and that he sometimes alludes to as a pundit. How else to explain his effusive pleasure at seeing how Spain play, and how teams playing flexible 4-2-3-1 formations manage to be the most successful in the major tournaments, and yet he maintains 4-5-1 at home and, to most people's increasing anger, forces good players to play out of their naturally best positions?
There was an interesting piece in The Independent recently about Ancelotti, and how he'd changed his formation around at Chelsea to get the best out of the players he had. He now unleashes 4-3-3 in almost every game. I have been banging on for months about Everton reverting to a 4-2-3-1 formation and for two very simple reasons. Firstly I believe it suits the players we have and we would have everyone in their natural and optimum space; and secondly, because I think it would make us tighter at the back (against better teams) and even more offensive and positive because the full-backs provide the width, expanding the midfield when on the attack, and covered by the deep midfielders. It could even be 4-1-3-2. But it should not IMHO be 4-5-1 because we do not have any natural wide players and so it all falls down.
Man for man, our first team is a match for almost any in the Premier League. That has been proven on the pitch, but I truly believe that an objective analysis of our players yields very favourable results. And of course Moyes has brought those players here. So again, WTF? He has performed master-strokes with Areta, Pienaar, Fellaini, Lescott, Howard, Heitinga, and even on occasions with Saha. But sure, he has made some mistakes, just like every other manager including SAF and the Special One. When Fellaini was being slagged off by some on here, I responded that I thought he would become a god at Everton. I think his value is now at least twice what we paid for him. But that doesn't fix the problem.
The analogies with the dying days of Walter Smith's regime are growing stronger. That's purely from the meek, negative & clueless approach that we seem to adopt in games. Everybody is playing within themselves and ? given that Moyes has the best and fittest squad ever at his disposal ? what the hell is going on?
If we look deeper, I think some of the clues are there. During last season's injury crisis, Moyes's body language and public demeanour was awful. He didn't just look depressed and clueless, he pretty much admitted to it. There seemed more than a hint of self-pity. And Walter Smith, for all his faults, never dropped his guard or looked for excuses. Some managers never forget that the most important 11 players in the club are the ones on the next team sheet. They all need to feel that they deserve to be there and have a chance.
And this season, Moyes has expressed similar befuddlement as to why, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SEASON, we get left in the traps. He said he'd thought about it, took the players away earlier & changed some things around. But, oddly, one thing he didn't change was the quality of the opposition. The first, and only, real game we played (Wolfsburg) came just one week before the season. We didn't simply lose it, we may as well not even bothered turning up, so meek was our performamce. I'm sure those Evertonians who paid serious money to go & support the team in Germany were not impressed. After a handful of close victories over crap teams, the Wolfsburg game put things into perspective. That perspective hasn't altered since the season started, despite 68% possession at Villa Park.
David Moyes is paid too much. In fact, much too much. That size of BASIC salary, for a club of our means, and team performance, is a big mistake. And yes, it is Kenwright's mistake. I'm not against friendships at the top of businesses, but this one seems now to be working against us. David Moyes has been allowed to feel too safe and too powerful. I've enjoyed our stability compared to almost every other club, but it has to be earned, and re-earned, and it has to bear scrutiny. Moyes should have been paid around £2m, with bonuses for top 6, top 4 & winning the league.
David Moyes now seems incapable of sending out an Everton team to simply "go for it". We started this season with really nothing to lose. With the big 3, City, Spurs, Villa, Liverpool, another 8th-place finish would not have been a disgrace, but it's not now about positions or points ? it's about performances. His reluctance to adapt our formation (I hate 4-5-1) to suit the players, his persistence with playing good players out of position, his seeming lack of tactical invention to change & influence a game, his demeanour of being lost for a solution, the team's lack of direction, lack of flair, lack of attacking intent (apart from the last 3 mins against Man Utd ? when did we last counter-attack a team?), our unacceptably rubbish pre-seasons and our unacceptably rubbish starts to every season lead me to a very strong and very simple conclusion...
Moyes has shown that, from a tactical, motivation, flair and ambition viewpoint, he is unable to deliver the goods. He has reached his ceiling and more money for players will not fix it. In fact, one could easily argue that, the more options Moyes has, the more difficult he finds the job. Events of this season pretty much nail that idea for me.
Had we started the season this way 4 years ago (as we did), or 3 years ago (as we did), or 2 years ago (as we did) or last season (as we did) then there may have remained the threads of bad luck and one last chance etc. But not now.
It matters not a jot to me how this season is transformed because it is almost over when assessed against its opportunities. We have been found wanting against Blackburn, Wolves, Newcastle and Brentford. If this is a blip then it's beginning to look like a big blip. And Moyes has form on big blips. Our start to the 2005 season was shocking, as was our finish to the 2004 season (both club records for the wrong reason) when we only missed going down because the bottom 3 only had 33 pts.
Based on an assessment of Results, Tactics, Formation, Team Selection, Style, 8 poor pre-seasons, 7 poor/shocking starts to a season, no answer or idea for change, etc, etc ? and being paid far too much (Benitez is on less at Inter Milan), it is now time for David Moyes to go.
I'm not upset about my pre season optimism. Despite the sneering of some contributors on ToffeeWeb, optimism about Everton was shared by several top managers and several top pundits. There was a reason for it... and that reason was because it was possible. It now isn't.
This season is in danger of lapsing into total ignominy if we don't turn this around soon. the fact that we have been here before, like 5 or 6 times, speaks volumes. Sometimes in life, enough is just enough. Our resources are being wasted, a change is crucial.
Someone on an earlier thread suggested Manual Pellegrini. That's interesting. I suggested the same thing 2 or 3 years ago following a similar situation with David Moyes. I was hugely impressed with Pellegrini at Villarreal. He built a team out of rejects and unknowns and got them playing the best football in Spain at the time and from nowhere into the Champions League. He was also most gracious and urbane about Everton in particular and football in general. He is fluent in English too. Yes, Manuel Pellegrini has the right CV for me.
After that, I just don't know. But what I do know is that it should not be Martin O'Neill. How could it possibly be? Moyes has under-spent and out-performed O'Neill almost every season. O'Neill's teams are one-dimensional and often boring. No thanks.
I'm rather taken by the idea of Big Joe as general manager, with a smart young coach under him. Just a thought...
I guess the last point is that, of course, this isn't going to happen because Kenwright will not sack Moyes. He has a personal & financial reason for not doing so. That would be a big mistake. It is now clear that our team needs change and needs refreshing. I think all or most of the ingredients are there. In the right hands, with the right formation, right players in right positions, a mandate to attack and entertain, and all Evertonians behind him (or her!), a new manager could do a lot.
It's over for David Moyes. I think this can only get more difficult for him and I wish it would be quick & dignified & friendly (because we DO owe him a lot).
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The problem with DM is his stubborness... he has great difficulty in change and tends to dig his heels in !! To his detriment sometimes.
As I have said before, any new manager of any pedigree will demand money to buy 'HIS' pick of players and he will not get it at EFC while BK is in charge of the purse strings. Money will only be available if the FANS stop going to watch and force his hand.
I think Moyes is lost! I don?t think he knows his best team; I think his relationship with players is variable and less commanding than before; I think he is resigned to the shoestring budget offered by Blue Bill; his ?star? players are failing to deliver (those who have re-signed contracts and those who have failed to commit) and the potential of many of the younger players has stalled. The ?underdog? spirit of old has faded and our technical ability and tactical nous (both the preserve of the players and manager ? not just one) is shown up time and time again.
Difficult to say if Moyes?s ?comfortable? position as manager has sown the seeds of the current position. We had yo-yo sequences of seasons before ? but the hunger of the club is not the same this season, and everything is stale. The players? performances silence the crowd and in turn our negativity somehow seeps back to the team ? a vicious circle if ever there was one!
I was thinking of starting a separate thread regarding ?lost potential?, but I?ll air it here to feed the debate ? something we need to thank ToffeeWeb for! I was thinking the other day about all the players we?ve had through the club (many still here) who have not lived up to the potential first shown. Now before I start I realise injuries have had their say, so please don?t discount that effect (most obviously with the Yak, but maybe even with Mikel perhaps).
However, it has to be said that we?ve had numerous players who have joined us or come up through the ranks with great promise, developed to some extent and looked like being the next ?big thing?, only to show us that that is about as good as it gets. They all seem to reach that ?future international prospect? status but never quite deliver. Arteta shows that class in tantalising glimpses, but never really climbs to that next level, Pienaar fails to become that perpetual ?danger man? in midfield I thought he was turning into. Vaughan, Anichebe and Gosling flounder in that ?what if? zone. Osman hits his ceiling and never develops despite opportunities; Baines rises, falls and rises again, but looks destined to be an also-ran in international terms. Fellaini has a similar rollercoaster ride, only out of sync with Baines, while Bily remains an enigma. Cahill gives us something, but his ?jack in the box? goals don?t fully disguise his lack of finesse, control and bite in midfield.
Add AJ, McFadden, Beattie and Lescott and we are left with a view that Moyes and the coaching team only seem to bring them up to a certain standard and then no more. Whether it is tactics, motivation, training techniques, guile or flexibility of approach ? all our players find their level and hover there. I?m not a personal fan ? but it could be argued that Rooney wasn?t being developed as well as he could have been at the club after his initial burst onto the scene, and now I fear Rodwell will suffocate in Moyes?s presence. Do we fear the loss of any player to a bigger club (such as the way of Lescott) who might appear over the trench wall for the usual suspects to snipe at ? do we fear Jags going the same way (perhaps one of the very few examples of a player who may have achieved his potential!)
In the stage play and film of ?Amadeus?, Mozart?s embittered rival Salieri declares he is the "patron saint of mediocrity?. Is Moyes ultimately a limited manager who has taken us as far as we can go, and who is too comfortable in his position (effectively keeping Bill?s cheap toy in the top flight)?
Experience tells me Moyes will survive and by sheer desperation we will crawl out of the relegation hole at some point ? but I now think the time has come to consider changes at board level and at managerial level. If we fear a ?Leeds-style? meltdown from billionaire involvement and ownership, or a ?Charlton-Curbishley? fall from grace following a managerial change, then we remain vulnerable to a slow drift to the Championship ? maybe not this year (although never discount it), but soon after.
The club is at a pivotal point in our history ? and we need some true Evertonians to voice the way forward! Keep debating and arguing, but let?s have clear thinking and less rhetoric. How do we save our club in this dark hour ? batten down the hatches and await better weather, or go outside and face the storm ? As Mr Grossman once said - ?David... over to you!?
I feel the pain, like all Blues, when we do not play well. I have seen the good times, never understood some of the reasons for the bad times, except when managed by WS, and now am so exasperated by the doom and gloom of this thread.
I do know, personally, from talking to some first team players, that the culture and team spirit within the players is excellent. I am told that EFC is one of the best clubs that some of our players have ever been with. From my long and sometimes horrible experiences, as an EFC fan, all that has happened thus far, this season, is a mixture of poor finishing, good keeping, good luck by the opposition, and poor refereeing.
I do wish that David Moyes would change some of his thinking but we never complained towards the latter end of last season, and I have no doubt that we will start this seasons soon enough.
Not a time for criticism....
I did mention yesterday that Martin O'Neill was out of a job (I was just stating the fact that he was out of a job) but the suggestion of our first foreign coach (Pellegrini) is very interesting and if he can do what he done at Villarreal then I certainly would entertain the idea.
Hopefully then we shall have a side that plays attractive exciting and entertaining football. But I have just woken-up from my dream and see BK and DM are still gonna be there come the end of the season.
Give Moyes till Christmas (I am one of his biggest fans) but if it is not sorted by then well we get someone else in. The ingredients are there, minus the cherry up top and hopefully Moyes will become the master chef again (sorry, I'm hungry). If he can't get this lot going then currently there is only Martin O'neill who realistically could do a job for us although I have never liked the man and doubt his ability to bring anything different to Moyes.
Moyes has assembled the usual homogenous mix of mid table prem types, neither great nor shite but should'nt be getting relegated or knocked out by Brentford. Notably, Bily who can play, can't get a game.The writing on the wall is now a huge neon sign. All the mitigating circumstances carrying Moyes are evaporating, the Wolves, Stokes, Sunderlands, Birmingham Citys of this world are not playing ball, they're not imploding they're emulating the Moyes gameplan and fucking us over, rising up the league by default ie doing fuck all in the transfer market and hoping the others fall over has caught up.Interesting Alan, but slightly fluffy.
Now he has a (virtually) complete squad from which to choose, he appears to be more bewildered than ever and "all at sea" when it comes to trying to put things right. Time to go, with reasonable progress achieved and dignity intact, would be my verdict!
Well, go on then, tell us. We're still waiting.
I used to think that the penchant for repeatedly telling us what they don't want, rather than (somewhat more helpfully) what they do, was a characteristic of women.
Then I discovered Toffeeweb and realise what an insult that was to the fairer sex.
Despite repeatedly asking the doom & gloom merchants & those that seem to hate the chairman with degrees of emnity for examples of what they do want, the answer never arrives.
Oh sure, you get the occasional asinine response that suggests Leicester is the model to follow. No, really. I mean they are doing better than we are because they won the Mickey Mouse cup 10 years ago and have since been relegated & had several years out of the top league, whereas we've only had countless top 6 finishes, European football, an FA cup final and our best squad for over 2 decades. Ah, but no silverware.
The list will never arrive because, as some of these chaps have explained, there's no such thing as relative. No, really. It's just not good form comparing Everton to Newcastle, West Ham, Leeds, Liverpool and even ManU. It's not good form for the simple reason that to do so is to re-enter the real world. You know, the one where the grass is only greener because it's been painted and when the paint wears off the grass is poisioned.
And why raise this old chestnut again now?
Simple. Just take a look at what's going on across the park at LFC. Now, do you remember all the whoop whoop a few weeks ago from those deriding the apparent lack of interest or offers in EFC when LFC seem to have half a dozen to choose from?
And do you recall the derision, shouts of "apologist", go support ManU and other such drivel against those who suggested wait & see, as paper talk is, rarer quaintly, not always true. Yes, fancy that.
And now of course our illustrious neighbours are not only saddled with huge debts but are facing a fire sale as RBS has ran out of patience and moved its loan to their toxic assets division. This opens LFC up to all manner of gold-diggers & asset strippers as RBS is now solely focused on getting its money back asap.
And who can forget the emotions amongst some Evertonians when Waldorf & Stadtler showed up on their white horses with promises of rainbows, trophies, super stars and regular blowjobs for all fans.
And then who can forget the response from some fans on TW when some of us ventured that it could, oh yes it really could, be worse. What is it that afflicts the brain and blinds it to the notion that change = risk, that sometimes the devil you know may (stress, may) be better than the one you don't.
And just to clarify; this is not a manifesto for no change. This is purely an illustration of what can happen if you change horses and the new horse turns out worse than the old one. And guess what, in the recent annals of football club history, the vast majority of major takeovers have been unmitigated disasters.
But worry not. because we apparently have the worst chairman in the league, liar, 24/7, Kings Dock etc etc. But here's the thing. We have major imperfections here at EFC. Given our parlous financial state the club should, no, must, open up to supporters. if ever there was an opportunity to exploit and utilise the People's Club concept then it is now. Kenwright & the board are missing a big trick.
But sometimes the baby does get thrown out with the bath water. Fans of Leeds, ManU, Newcastle, Liverpool, Pompey and West Ham all thought they were in heaven with their new owners, who had the best interests of the club and its fans at heart.
And there's the rub.
Outside of the billionaire nonsense that is Citeh and was Chelski, it's all a fantasy, a very rude awakening. The reality is that Kenwright is both a liability and an asset. if you don't believe the latter just ask the manager and the players, and indeed his peers throughout the game. But his lack of strategic wherewithall and finance has left us (in the minds of some) boxed in and unable to compete.
I disagree with all of this. Football, and fans especially, need to live in the real world. In the real world investors do not give money away from the heart. In the real world there are often more risks with takeovers than there are benefits. And in the real world you have to pay your own way.
The solution to Everton's problems is not a sugar daddy billionaire. The only solution is a well conceived strategic plan that promotes self-sufficiency & takes the fans with you. Clubs should not over-reach because the risks are too great. Whilst a millionaire's name might be on the documents at Companies' House, clubs intrinsically belong to the people. The fantastic, phoenix-like, return of Wimbledon AFC to the fringes of the league is testimony to that.
To me there is, and has only ever been, one solution to the problems at both EFC and LFC. It is a world-class joint stadium of perhaps 65,000 capacity, jointly funded by the clubs, local, regional and EC grants and delivered in time for the 2018 world cup. A new architectural & sporting masterpiece on Merseyside amongst the many others. Its utilisation on a weekly basis, attraction for huge non-football events, economies of scale and simple attraction to fans from all over the UK and the globe, will render it the key to our future success. Conversely, saddling either club with the huge debt required to build its own stadium is ridiculous. Either solution would be inferior and would put the club at the same risk as LFC is right now from RBS.
So, to get back to my original point. People who only complain, especially about the same thing time & again, are just making noise. Those who at least bother to articulate their dislike with a solution or two are worth engaging with. I care not much if Kenwright stays or goes. My tolerance of him staying is simply based on the law of averages & how my mates who support Leeds, Newcastle, West Ham, Pompey, LFC and ManU see the world. In almost every case they yearn for what was before.
So, about that list...
You and me both Mike !
I felt Alan Kirwin's article did express fairly well a lot of the angst, teeth gnashing etc that most are feeling at the moment.
However, it's tone has obviously struck a chord with Michael K and Eugene.
Is that because it's tone is perhaps too omniscient/pompous ? Or is the accusation that Alan K has just blown with the wind of current opinion ?
Not taking sides guys. Just sitting in the confused corner with Mike Green.
Moyes will sort it as Manager so for your part manage the discussion instead and not lead the initial thread away to some sort of grammar school spelling test to be judged by Stephen Fry.
Stick to football and not this aimless "who can upset who the best" shite.
On a personal note, he lost all credibility with his stance over Kirkby and his opinion that is was legitimate in the business world to lie. Still, good luck Mr Kirwin on your future travels
Until Ruane entered the fray the responses were fine too. WTF is ER, and for that matter, our prickly editor on about? It seems to me like they are for some reason known only to them trying to pick a fight with AK.
I don't often contribute to this site as it has become far too cliquey in recent times, and threads often descend into juvenile slanging matches.
I fully expect to be shot down....
I think this demonstrates Eugene called it right when he said "this piece comes across as some kind of personal damage-limitation exercise. Worse still, there is an incredible arrogance about 'we need a change BUT....only now when I say we need a change'."
After Alan's typically dismissve response (#49) this thread turned on his own post at #73, and its bizarre request for me to censor respondents he had an issue with. He made an error of judgement in that call that he is not going to admit, hence the flounce. Everything had been fine up until that point.
Tough opposition surely can't make us worse and instead prepare us better.
Apparently in 1985 we went to Canada and as an English club we were banned from friendlies in Europe. Didn't do too bad without winning a trophy mind, something to do with having a great side I guess.
No, that wasn't what I was saying when I posted @93. I consider this site to be about debate and sometimes debates do get very heated. That's fine by me because by visiting TW I've been forced to consider other viewpoints and have learnt by that process. I'm not a big fan of when debate on TW degenerates into personal attacks, mud slinging etc. However, that's MK' s job as moderator to intervene if he thinks the eye gouging, hair pulling and biting has gone too far.
All I and Mike Green were asking for was clarification as to what in particular had annoyed Eugene and MK about this article. I did give the article some praise (although not fawning) but suggested possible reasons why it had peed them off.
Brian is right about the arrogance and sneering conceit, which has been a common feature of Alan's approach to his fellow Evertonians on here, but which he had well in control for this piece, and I think that helped win the acolades of an adoring public that was a nice boost for his ego. Which makes the request for deletion of "content-free" challenges, followed by the flounce, all the more odd. Perhaps it was harsh of me to show him up by posting that other piece but I felt it underlined a point Eugene had made about him changing his tune. As someone else said, this is a football forum: it's about opinions, batting them back and forth in necessary ? no place for being so precious, surely?
And what does this ginger minger do? Only go and recruit him... perhaps Moyes will be much happier with Everton in the Championship, where his current abilities lie.Still the buck stops with ginger minger and he really does have to go. I find it hilarious how some people think no-one could have done what Moyes did with no money... where was this pulled from?There was no ambition at board level, it was Smith who told fat controller about Moyes, not the club actually looking for anything in the first place.That's why the rot needs routing right now, from the Board down to the Manager and Steve Round... all must go.
God forbid someone might actually want to buy us and we might actually win some shit. Instead of 6th, which most people are happy with... call yourselves Evertonians? My god, let's get relegated now and pack it all in.
"No offence meant" Yeah right. Your accusations are not only offensive, they are inaccurate and deliberately inflammatory. Since you have set yourself up as judge on this thread, tell me honestly what you thought of his request? Did you read it? Do you think it was reasonable? And if so, how should I go about implementing it as policy on the website?
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