?The evidence before the court is, incontrovertible there's no need for the jury to retire? ? Lyrics from the Pink Floyd seventies rock opera The Wall.
When Colin Fitzpatrick followed up his recent epic I`m more concerned about Everton with Kenwright & EFC ? a Response to Comments, I couldn?t help but be reminded of the iconic Floyd track ?The Trial?. I could almost hear the mood-setting clarinet, the Jail doors slamming as I scrolled down the many posts.
Some ToffeeWeb regulars proclaimed it the definitive argument, some even claimed it simply couldn?t be countered. Bill Kenwright was Guilty!!! ... no need for the jury to retire. I never cease to be amazed at the collective knowledge the contributors of this site have accumulated down the years, there's always somebody who can tell you something you didn?t know.
Anyway, I was convinced somebody would come along and counter a lot of Colin's points. Every time I have logged on I've expected a ?Case for the defence? but there doesn?t seem to be any takers. I'm really disappointed nobody has stepped up to the plate, but if I'm honest I think the REAL reason I didn?t step forward is because I realised how daunting a task it would be; Colin's article was a block buster, the detail, historical content, presentation... it had the lot.
Before I go any further, I'd like to make something very clear: I'm not somebody who blindly toes the party line. I've watched Everton for nearly 50 years and although I prefer to discuss playing matters, I have not been blind to what's gone on behind the scenes. I`m not one of life`s sensitive souls either, so if you disagree, feel very free to swarm all over my points...
In his article, Colin blames two people for the club?s current predicament, he names them: Moyes and Kenwright ? and although he admits apportioning blame can sometimes be counter-productive, he felt that only by identifying the root cause of our problems, can solutions be found... I couldn?t agree more, but it was in identifying the root cause of our problems that I felt Colin's article started to unravel? despite the length of his diagnosis, I felt it was a little simplistic. It was as if he had totted up every mistake made by the club since the eighties and laid them at Kenwright's door.
When Colin began telling us about what Kenwright was getting up to in a London hotel after the Cup Final, even though he was half way up the M1 at the time, I think it?s fair to say most people would have realised this wasn?t going to be the most balanced article... and by slamming Kenwright`s childish, but hardly offensive claims that he was at the 1966 FA Cup Final with Eddie Kavanagh, I felt he was really setting the tone for his article ? and subsequent thread.
Colin was/is a member of KEIOC and I believe a shareholder ? apologies if I'm wrong on that one. He witnessed close-hand what the rest of you view from a distance: lack of respect, lack of co-operation and perhaps most damning of all, downright dishonesty; his dislike/contempt for the chairman is understandable? But here's my problem: in his desire to expose and eventually see the back of him, I believe there is a real danger that he is rewriting history. Yes, his article was box office, the whole thread was riveting, I don?t think I've seen such emotion stirred up by a single article, anywhere... but as I scrolled down each post, I couldn?t shake the feeling that Kenwright's enemies had been waiting for this moment and that fact was soon giving way to unsubstantiated claim.
To form a balanced accurate view of Kenwright's Reign, you have to go back to the beginning of it. Colin claimed Everton's decline coincided with the arrival of Kenwright; technically, that?s true, but in my view it?s unjust and untrue and misleading to suggest that, because he was here, he's to blame. Kenwright can't be held responsible for the mismanagement of the club in the early nineties ? other more senior members of the board were calling the shots. And it was during this period that Evertonians experienced the rudest of awakenings. In the blink of an eye, the club had gone from being one of the best teams in Europe to perennial relegation fighters.
Many Evertonians claimed ? still do ? that our decline was the direct result of the behaviour of kopite thugs in Belgium? who knows? It may have been a contributory factor, but after making the mistake of thinking our greatest ever coach could be a manager, the hierarchy ? namely Sir Philip Carter, Dr David Marsh and later Peter Johnson ? were to go on to have their limitations well and truly exposed. Top players were being replaced by journeymen.
Everton Football Club spent the next few seasons stumbling around the ropes like a battered boxer. It was a minor miracle we didn?t actually hit the canvas ? could we have ever gotten back up if we had? Only a combination of heroics from stalwarts like Dave Watson, rank bad refereeing, and good old-fashioned poxy luck enabled us to maintain our Premier League status. These were dark, dark days, although there was SOME good news ? at least the board didn?t lie to us. When asked about putting a second tier on park end, Sir Philip simply told us we didn?t warrant it. The fucking cheek! He didn?t think we were worth it?
The mismanagement continued; that Mr Johnson was able to purchase a controlling interest for as little as £10 million merely underlined that. He was a kopite, but hey, beggars can?t be choosers; he was going to splash the cash, wasn?t he? Well? yes, he was ? but not his own.
To give credit where it?s due, we did win the FA Cup under his stewardship, but that couldn?t mask the fact that his reign was yet another disaster. How those fuckers across the park laughed as we continued to court relegation, he'd already blown it with big Joe, promises of world class managers only deepened the embarrassment.
Johnson was unpopular from the start; his red connections hadn?t helped and he was yet another who showed little or no respect for the Evertonian. He once boasted he had turned down offers from Joe Lewis... boasted??? ? Funnily enough, when asked about this, Lewis had no knowledge of it. Johnson was a slippery character, but by trying to go behind Walter Smith?s back to sell Duncan Ferguson, he came badly unstuck. Walter was on to him, he and his agent showed Johnson a Glaswegian version of Find the Lady. There was no way back for the kopite.
Bill Kenwright's starting position as Everton's chairman was desperate. In the years leading up to his reign, Everton's fortunes on and off the pitch hadn?t just taken a turn for the worse... they'd fallen off a fucking cliff! Turning things around was always going to be a monumental task, any steps in the right direction were going to be small ones. That said, many would argue that throughout Kenwright's reign Everton have suffered considerably more disasters than triumphs... let?s take a look.
For years now, I have refused even discuss the Kings Dock. I have to admit, I only have to think about it and I could fucking weep, but it?s impossible to pen this piece without addressing it. Kenwright's behaviour throughout these negotiations has been well documented, ask any Evertonian and they will tell you it was his fuckaroundary that eventually killed the dream? but one or two other things bother me about the Kings Dock saga.
Paul Gregg has for some time now been portrayed as some sort of Martyr? the ? victim? ? but was he really? I never quite got that ?reverse mortgage? lark, we could either raise the money or we couldn?t, what was wrong with doing things the conventional way? Shortly after Gregg was claiming he'd found £15 million quid to invest into the club, he claimed Lord Grantchester would be the provider! That little snippet was news to Lord Grantchester, who felt compelled to issue the following denial:
?I`m a lifelong Evertonian and share all Evertonians' disappointment at seeing our great club failing to compete at the highest level, but it is NOT the case that I am behind Mr Gregg?s proposals to underwrite funds for the club and, indeed, I have not seen Mr Gregg?s proposal? ? you couldn?t make it up!
One thing we can gather from this little saga is that Gregg was hardly playing with a straight bat either.
Then there's Lord ? life-long Evertonian ? Grantchester himself; why not secure the deal by making a healthy contribution to the £30 million we needed to fund the KD? If he didn?t consider it from a fan point of view, surely he could have seen it as a good investment?
Something else always nags me when ground improvement / movement is discussed. When the old Park End was dismantled at the beginning of the nineties, did EFC not pass up THE opportunity to keep Goodison abreast of other grounds? I`m no stadium expert so I stand to be corrected on this, but was it not a golden opportunity to move the pitch towards Stanley Park?
I can?t remember if any the houses on Goodison Avenue where still there, but even if they were, surely that could have easily been overcome. If Sir Philip and Dr David had shown the foresight of others, could ground capacity not have been raised to about 46,000? Maybe those ridiculously obstructed views in the Lower Bullens could have been converted into corporate facilities, this would have cost an absolute pittance in comparison to what it would cost today and may have provided the necessary income to bring the rest of the ground into the 21st century ? maybe even attract an investor! I really would love to hear the views of one of TW's stadium experts on this?
Bill Kenwright is often accused of selling the family silver to survive, but these assets everyone keeps talking about, what are they? Would their value be enough to cover the costs of Big Vic`s medical bill?
I can almost hear people screaming "Finch Farm!" But isn?t that an asset we acquired on BK`s watch anyway? Everton were desperate for a new state-of-the-art training facility and we got one; we couldn?t afford to develop it ourselves so we sold the land for over £2 million to a company who could... does that not make sense? And wasn?t there a buy-back clause put into the terms of the sale?
When Bellefield is eventually sold, who?s to say the club won?t exercise their right to buy Finch Farm?
It could be argued that, rather than let all the clubs assets slip through their fingers, Everton under BK have actually accumulated more. Everton have never had such a valuable squad; the chairman could wipe out the debt tomorrow by ordering the sale of Rodwell, Fellaini, Jagielka, Arteta, Baines and Bily. Let?s face it, he could replace them with journeymen and Moyes would still probably keep them in the top flight. We could sell Jack Rodwell tomorrow and buy Finch Farm, but who the fuck would want that?
It could be argued that, rather than frittering away our pitifully modest assets under BK`s stewardship, the club has merely transferred them to the place we all want them to be... on the pitch!
And so to Kirkby. I still remember the relief I felt when I arrived at Hull and was told plans to move there had been knocked back. We may have been mauled by the tigers, but I got the first decent sleep I'd had in months that night.
The following day, relief had subsided and the anger I'd felt throughout the entire DK period was back, with a vengeance. Anger directed at Kenwright: he'd allowed himself to be played like a fiddle and was in turn trying to do the same to us. Anger at the Spurs supporters (Green & Earl) who now seemed to be welding far too much power even though they didn?t give a flying fuck about our club; anger at Wyness; anger at Elstone who continued to treat us as idiots by spouting pro-Kirkby shite even when it was obvious to the most ardent pro-Kirkby fan that this half-baked, half-witted plan could never work.
I think most of my anger was reserved for Sir Terry Leahy, ?Tesco Terry? another ?lifelong Evertonian? he abused his Evertonian credentials when he cynically stepped into the debate on the eve of the ballot and persuaded enough of the undecided that voting Yes was the only way forward. I will never forgive these people for trying to take my club out of my city.
Bill Kenwright ? by his own admission ? isn?t and never will be the ideal chairman to take our club forward; he lacks the necessary financial clout. The company he keeps and the people he listens to can be a best described as untrustworthy ? and if he chops down your cherry trees, don?t expect him to come clean, but he isn?t the only ?culprit? here. That?s my problem: I'm not even sure the right character is getting assassinated anymore. If I had to agree with any of the posts on Colin?s thread, I guess it would be Ken Buckley's.
Before the next public stoning, it may well be worth remembering that Bill Kenwright took on our club when we were in free-fall; nobody else wanted to know. Since he has been at the helm, we have gone from being relieved to avoid relegation, to being disappointed if we have not qualified for Europe. Our football is infinitely better, we are training at state-of-the-art facilities and (whether you want him or not) we have one of the most coveted managers in the game looking after the team.
If you cant find it in your heart to put down that stone, you might at least want to consider throwing a smaller one.
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Why not address Colin's points one by one and refute them rather than a general ramble?
Can BK invest his own money for transfers? ? He hasn't got any.
Has he got the vision for a new stadium in Liverpool? ?Clearly, there are no plans for a new stadium... Do I think all of the above are killing us as a club? ? No. Our league positions are what counts, and based on expenditure, we are doing well. We all want the billionaire, or real money at the club. We are greatly respected by most other clubs, and we are improving. The current board are like the walking dead, they are plainly treading water. They must also carry some of the blame as well as BK. Until someone can prove we have had a real and tangible offer from the RIGHT person for EFC, I think we should try to keep our young and talented squad of players, that is the main ambition for Mr Moyes at present. A lot of people on here need to realise there is not a long queue to buy this club. In fact, I have not seen any evidence of any genuine offer.
Many people disagreed with his article ? and they have every right to ? but just to disagree isn't enough. If they disagree, they should put forward an alternative view to each of Colin's points and leave it open for general discussion.
Your article is an overview but in no way any sort of case for the defence.
You've not answered directly ANY of the accusations. I appreciate it's difficult as most are established facts but if you must defend him then at least have a go. All you seem to be doing is pleading mitigating circustances.
What exactly are you saying: YES... He is boastful & prone to fantasy (I'd ask for a phychiatric report!) but at his core he's a good lad who's been led astray by those naughty Spur's fans with money & that Worldly wise Leahey?Also, just out of interest, David... Is Everton Football Club for sale? And if so, for how much?I'd go back & watch a few more episodes of 'Rumpole of the Bailey' before you try this again. All you've managed to do is write SOFT PORN FOR DODDY ( 4# )Oh... oh. .. oh... ARGHH!
Doddy must be breathing very heavy.
I don't think Colin's original article tried to portray BK as the sole reason for Everton's present situation. I think he was putting the situation since BK's tenure and if he was the right person to take us onwards. Of course that leads to the way he has handled various issues since beginning his Chairmanship.
These issues are very much out in the open and should be openly discussed.
What David did do that Colin did not, was provide factual evidence of Lord Granchester's rebuttal of Gregg's claims. To an entrenpreneur who made his money in the market place the release of Granchester's statement was a powerful and direct blow at Gregg's credibility. That Gregg did not either publicly or in a court of law take action to clear his name only confirms that Granchester's version was the truth.
Too much of this debate is based on third or fourth party evidence and I am still waiting for actual eye-witness accounts of who said what and where. So far the only kind of factual evidence is Granchester's statement.Such is the vast number of accusations made against Kenwright there must be hundreds of eye witnesses. Who are they and why have they not come forward?
This matter has bubbled away for far too long and its time to put it to bed. If the anti Bill people would come up with just one of eye witness, it would go a long way toward resolving the debate. Until or unless that happens I will continuel treading water.
As far as relegation goes, it's down to DM and his strategy, players and there being at least three teams in the league shittier than us, which has happened once on DM's clock.
The person in charge at the time is guilty of letting the club down. Doesn't feel like not proven to me.
Desperation led us to Kirkby, we'll never know what damage was done by not getting a new stadium, BK at fault? For me, "not proven".
As for the on field pitch standards, every time I leave the Main Stand and see Mike Walker's picture as a part of Everton's history on the new decor outside, I'm relived we have had Moyes for 8½ years ? without him, we'd have been at risk for relegation, in my opinion. No doubt with stints from Curbishley, Roy Keane and Avram Grant bringing us down. (Objection your honour, the witness is surmising).
Anyhow Dave, are you good with speeding offences?
When I say progression, I mean with regards to marketing the club, lack of investment and poor PR. We are stagnant and will continue to stagnate as long as this sham of a board run the club.
It just seems to me that interest in other clubs appear to be announced at the time, rightly or wrongly, Hull, Blackburn, Pompey, Notts Co, RS etc etc. Our club has apparently been up for sale for 8-9 years and we hear nowt ? apart from the times BK feels under pressure.
I understand that there are many commercial implications in announcements as above but surely a little bit of info and honesty is not too much to ask for?
- "the check will be in the bank in the morning" (Fortress Sports Fund)- "The money is ringfenced" (Kings Dock) ? it never was and he kept this lie up for 2 years.- "It will be an effectively free stadium with world class transport and Tesco will be providing £50 million towards it" (Destination Kirkby) ? all 3 points were BLATANT lies.- "The club is for sale" vs "None of the directors are prepared to sell any of their shares" (DK submission.)Too many other instances to list so the prosecution rests its case on this charge.2. His fiscal management is dire.He inherited a £5 million overdraft with money still to come in from player sales. Reports have our current debt anywhere from £60 to £80 million having sold Netherton training ground, Rooney and mortgaged GP and future season ticket sales.Too many other things to list so again the prosection rests its case.3. His contempt for any question of his authority.Gagging the small shareholders by removing the AGM which had been in place for years."I am not answering that question I am bored with that question."If you are a glass half-full fan, you could say we have been consistent under David Moyes but don't forget that the disasters under Walter and the near relegation were under Kenwright not PJ.I will never forget his "I speak to Walter everyday line".
I think it would be helpful to go back to the original query, which was from someone who asked what Kenwright had done as Chairman that caused some fans to dislike him (I'm prarphraising). Colin provided a sadly impressive list... yet a number of people (including Dave Wilson) denigrated his efforts, without actually refuting anything of substance. For me, the irony of this response from Dave Wilson is that he was going to (in his own words) "drive a coach and horses" through the lies and misstatements Colin had made... That he has clearly failed to do. Broadening the discussion beyond Kenwright's failings does nothing to refute the specific issues that Jay Harris (#37) rightly highlights. A generous disposition may encourage you to find excuses or cite mitigating circumstances, but the basic facts of these shameful episodes are hard for some of us to ignore.
Dick #20, you could just as easily ask where are the hundreds of eye witnesses to come forward and say the accusations are not true.
I do not believe BK wants to sell the club; he wants a rich man to finance his plaything and nobody would be crazy enough to do that. BK may be a Blue but he's not a suitable chairman.
1) Our near relegaton ? remember the last day of the season nail biter v Coventry? Well, a certain Peter Johnson was the Chairman.
2) As to the near disasters you refer to under Walter Smith, a rather unfair assessment of Walter Smith. Why? Well, when he first joined as manager, he made several signings e.g. Materazzi, Dacourt and Bakayoko. The latter was signed I believe to play alongside Duncan Ferguson. However, before that could happen, Ferguson was sold ? WITHOUT Smith's knowledge or approval.From that point on, Johnson "pulled the plug" on any future major spending. So any plans for bringing in any other new players had to be radically rethought by Smith. All things considered being reduced to "bargain" signings (this was in the days of the old March transfer deadline.) Smith didn't do too badly bringing in Scot Gemmil & David Weir for about £250,000 each and a certain Kevin Campbell on loan. I think most Evertonians would agree that David Weir was the bargain signing of that or any other season.3) I also remember the rather distasteful remarks of a certain Peter Johnson towards Howard Kendall. During the close season, shortly after the arrival of the likes of Materazzi, Collins and Dacourt, Peter Johnson said that the calibre of players signed by Walter Smith were superior to the "journeyman" type of players Howard Kendall had brought in. A certain degree of hypocrisy there I feel ? well, more than a certain degree a whole load of hypocrisy as, within a matter of a few weeks, Peter Johnson was to show his true colours with the sale of Duncan Ferguson and the sudden lack of transfer funds.In case you think this is a defence of BK, I prefer to think of it as a putting the record straight as regards Peter Johnson. It annoys me that BK takes all the flack for ALL that's gone wrong and Johnson gets off scot-free. Try looking at the big picture, Jay, as well as getting your facts right as to our relegation near-misses.Just in case you want to commit them to memory: 1993-94 v Wimbledon, a 3-2 win and 1997-98 v Coventry a 1-1 draw ? that's prior to Kenwright becoming "owner". We seem to have forgotten just how much damage Peter Johnson did to Everton. And how disgracefully he treated two fine Everton managers in Joe Royle and Howard Kendall. I remember we were without a manager for about 2 months and all the time Johnson kept making promises of an imminent arrival. If you want to have a go at anyone, try Peter Johnson for a change Jay ? unless that is you are Peter Johnson???
The last near relegation was in 2001 season, just before Moyes took over, when we looked certs for the drop and Kenwright had been in charge for 2 years.In fact, most supporters credit Moyes with saving us from relegation that season.
"...unless that is you are Peter Johnson???"Are you on drugs man? What a stupid statement.And by the way, Peter Johnson is not on trial here ? Kenwright is.
As an interested yet rapidly becoming bored onlooker, that is precisely the point I tried to make.In any trial under English law, the onus is on the prosecution to provide credible evidence proving the accused is guilty as charged. The defence needs only to answer and rebut such prosecution claims. Where those claims are not supported by factual evidence and / or eyewitness accounts, it is within its rights not to submit evidence even if such evidence would definitely prove its side of the matter.
The fact that DK was a sham / con based on nothing more than fictitious funding underlines how poor commercially we are.These are facts, Dick ? dress them up however you like but that's what they are. The bleating hoard of those who moan that BK is doing his best and we should continue to trust run risk of following this Pied Piper to the Mersey and oblivion.
"As somebody who has spoken to Keith Harris about the sale of the club, I can say the figures being bandied about and the suggestion as to who is controlling the "sale" are not wide of the mark." "For those of you questioning Michael, I can confirm that he is right in the ballpark and that Earl and Green are handling the sale and it is very complicated (from the horse's mouth)."
"David (Doubting) Thomas, what I stated was not a tease it is fact and you are the only person to question it".You have therefore mentioned the figure of £180 million and you have also confirmed that after your discussions with Keith Harris these values are correct and that is a fact as you have heard it from the horse's mouth.Your last post was great "If anyone wants to know the terms of the sale just get some credibility and phone Keith Harris and discuss it with him instead of speculating on here". I presume you have phoned him? Can you give us his number so I can ring him and see if he gives me as much information as he has given you? Or are you simply speculating like everyone else on this site?
Or do you believe that the cheque DID arrive in the bank? And the KD money WAS available. In which cases, where did it all go?
And you really STILL believe the free world class stadium and transport links BS????
Regarding Stanley Park, Johnson went ballistic over that stand and nearly pulled out of taking us over because we built only one tier instead of two. The club were lying through their teeth as to the situation, when he took over, hundreds of thousands of pounds were being robbed by the staff in the 300/500 clubs and the club did nothing. He wanted all the staff fired and the board refused!!
Everton's full demise started on 1 December 1993 when, only 3 pts behind a European place, the team playing well but needed a goalscorer (sound familar?), Kendall wanted Dion Dublin for £1M and the board (of which Kenwright was a member) refused. Kendall left the following week; 6 months later came the infamous Wimbledon game.
True Blue Bill my arse... read Alan Ball's thoughts on that in his book.
The words deck chairs and Titanic come to mind.
As Christine states, my piece was a list of disasters ? Kings Dock, NTL, Kirkby, the gagging of shareholders, the abolition of AGMs ? to name but a few; a veritable debris field stretching out behind our chairman. The reason you?ve failed to address every single one of those debacles is the same reason you won?t find an article on here claiming we?re not in twelfth place or we didn?t draw at Blackpool or against Bolton; it?s because they?re facts, indisputable facts. The original article was a response to somebody wanting to know what Bill Kenwright had done to deserve so much animosity from fans on TW; attempting to widen the scope of this to include others such as Johnson, Gregg, Marsh et al is, again in my opinion, nothing more than an attempt to deflect the blame, the responsibility if you like, for some of the most truly appalling episodes and without doubt the darkest in our long history. For me, Kirkby was an act of Evertonian treason of Judas Iscariot proportions. In my opinion, Bill Kenwright, as chairman, sat back and misled the shareholders and the fans whilst the club was about to be sold down the river. I?ll make it easy for all the ?Bill isn?t all bad brigade? ? explain why he should still hold the office of chairman and director after Kirkby, nothing else, just Kirkby. My own view is that he should be removed along with Robert Earl to prevent the influence of Philip Green being exerted on Everton Football Club; you think they can?t... think again!I keep seeing certain posters mentioning that the financial performance of the club under Bill Kenwright isn?t too bad, is better than before, how he?s steadied the ship, how, according to one poster on another thread, "Kenwright has delivered investment, what we can judge Kenwright on is our commercial performance, it's tough to get to the facts but I do see some progress." Great, financial performance is an exact science, it?s measurable against known ratios and recorded annually; so let's see it, show me how much better we are ? not some journalist regurgitating the club spin that we?re a well run club, let?s see the indisputable evidence....Oh, and Dick (69), some people on here have attempted to make a difference whilst others sit on their arse, spout shite and can?t see what is put in front of them. You may feel that?s harsh but the fuckwits are lost causes in my opinion.
So, this ship that?s been steadied...
I repeat that it's quite easy to say it's all hogwash ? prove your points!!
Kenwright may be on trial but I get annoyed when people like you make little or no reference to Peter Johnson. He very nearly drove our club into near relegation and was far more economical with the truth than Kenwright.You remind me of someone who would say, "That Russian guy Putin is a nasty piece of work ? Stalin who was he?"
Peter Johnson left the club in 1999 and reduced the price of his stake to facilitate a sale, if only BK/Earl/Woods could do the same.
David Thomas, are you aware that KEIOC and Colin told Kenwright and the board that DK would never go ahead and the reasons why it wouldn't, yet Kenwright still insisted on spending millions on "experts" who were subsequently discredited at the Public Enquiry?
Sometimes you can try your hardest but, when the people you are trying to help won't listen, there's only one person you can blame.
From a standing start, they provided the biggest body of evidence at the inquiry, and systematically exposed KD's multiple failings to the point that all involved with it were taking large backward steps by the end ? by which time no-one wanted to challenge KEIOC's stance.
At the same time, they maintained a presence on all of these websites, throughout the process, telling Evertonians the truth about what they'd been promised. That truth forced and EGM, and resulted in DK's support practically vanishing on ALL Evertonian websites.... to the point now, that the whole sorry episode is considered a sick joke by most.
This involved literally thousands of man-hours of unpaid work by these people, and was commended by all involved (including some within the club)....
Meanwhile Dave's dissection of Colin's/keioc's work has all the substance of one of my 6-year-old's story books. It seems some still haven't forgiven KEIOC for having the temerity to shatter their blue-tinted specs by telling the truth..... Disprove them if you can!
Politics is based on lies, so young man is every business that makes money. Don't be so naieve.I don't know the truth, probably never will. But fact is, we are far better now than we were in the 90s. Maybe, just maybe, we will strike lucky, finish top four and reach the Champions League, thus gaining some extra income and pushing on. Without hope, we are nothing!!!
That would have been the catalyst that would have propelled us to the top of English football. I still hate Big Ron for that very lucky win against the favourites, and still regret that Norman Whiteside never had the chance to repay his massive debt to us!!
You talk to United fans and they agree that eventually the Green and Gold club will reap rewards there but, that said, they're still near top and their pressure is not as great, results will dictate that.
I was a proud season ticket holder from 94 to 98 and was on the pitch chanting "Johnson Out" at the end of the coventry game. I have no doubt that the protests that time had a major influence on him leaving.
I was at the Bolton game on Wednesday and spent time with a regurlar season ticket holder whom I started to probe about BK. I knew within minutes she had little of the facts and I'm sure that is the case for a lot of Evertonians who don't use this and other forums.
Keioc were brillant in what they did but where were the protests involving 1000s of blues? You can say what you want about them but would they accept the abolition of their AGM? Answer: No. Kenwright has it very comfortable in my opinion and, as Colin has proved beyond doubt, he is clearly a liar and a bullshitter. However, until more blues start to care and take action, he will continue to have his merry way.
Protests make a difference, of that their is no doubt. They bring about change and they highlight wrong-doings. They put pressure on those in charge to listen and it slowly breaks the bull-shit line. Results have a direct bearing on the matter. Liverpool were slipping; their need was more urgent. United are still near top of pile but slipping. Us mid-table and accepting of mediocrity... Am I wrong?
By the way, I was on the terraces the last time we were relegated, I was was also at Oldham when were promoted, so don't be telling me to know my history, OK!
So I'll start of with the fantasy shadow director? Fact or fiction?
The whole point is, nobody really knows for sure. How are you going to 'rebuke' that? (I think the word might be 'refute').
One of their most remarkable successes has been the annexation of fans' websites. Offering an alternative viewpoint on any of them was to attract the attention of someone's bellicose utterings, offering that your viewpoint offended the blue soul of someone within a very short period of time. That was extremely impressive, took a lot of time, people & effort. If the 'guarddogs' watching the websites weren't effective, enough one of the 'big guns' were wheeled out.
Fair enough ? it was a battle well won by people who cared a lot for the club ? no question.
KEIOC now seems to have become KKOOE ? Kick Kenwright Out Of Everton. Someone, somewhere is taking the kinship elicited in a group of people online and attempting to turn it against Kenwright. So what? Even Kenwright admits he isn't the man for the job, he's waiting for a new owner or new opportunities we all agree on that.
It is the way this is being done that is ringing alarm bells to me ? same tactics, same group. Various political groups have used these over the years and it never turned out well in the end: the right and left political wings of the '30s, in Liverpool itself; the Militant groups of the '70s & '80s (Hatton) springs to mind.
Free speech is frowned on, dissenters ridiculed. Emotive 'rabble rousing' speeches & articles issued. The debate needs a sensible, balanced, academically accurate historical summary of the last 10-20 years and then we can all make up our minds free of bias ? but we aren't going to get that are we?
On his record as a competent chairman, the man has failed commercially and taken the plaudits when Moyes is acclaimed for efforts on the field. By his own admission, he cannot take the club forward, so why is he still there? Why can't another chairman be appointed? His record on trust and capability is appalling as far as I am concerned.There is enough to review in the recent history to make the call that it's time he should go. One last thing on the subject of fans' protest. Without debate we wouldn't have a democracy, without the ability to protest lawfully we have a dictatorship. Where is the man who will not stand for what is right? The apathy of some Evertonians to stand up is because they aren't really bothered, thankfully there are some who are. Long may it continue and long may they have a voice on ToffeeWeb.
You don't seem to have anything positive to say about Kenwright, nor do you seem capable of addressing any of the specific accusations made in the original post (the case against, as it were), therefore you seem bent on trying to re-route the debate away from Kenwright & onto irrelevancies. But don't worry, as you've "never said once on this website that I am a big supporter of Bill Kenwright" then your secret remains safe.
Also, has Grantchester indicated in any way that he would be interested in taking more control of the club? I was under the impression that he has constantly distanced himself from the general running of the club? Or from your experience in dealing with these individuals, is he just waiting for Kenwright to leave then he would be willing to play a bigger role at the club?
Or maybe Kenwright's trying to find somebody who'll buy out Earl (& Green?) & support his continued presence on the Board, possibly still as Chairman. Who knows?
You can cry out for investment but what form do you think that will take? BK or new owner ? it's going to be debt. Debt that we can't afford. Debt that a lot of people will term as 'investment' ? for it's what it is.If people get their way and force BK out then we might find an owner who is prepared to borrow more but it's a risky game and could send us reeling.The only solution is to make steady progress on the pitch and off it. Yes, we might be disappointed with recent results but this team is capable of sustaining enough success to keep the commercial cogs oiled. Turnover keeps on increasing. Bar a millionaire benefactor I don't see any other solution.
For me Robert Elstone is a qualified sports business professional who's been with the club several years, knows the club and is in house. Jon Woods is a highly experienced and successful businessman who is just as passionate an Evertonian as Bill Kenwright without the spin, the baggage and the bullshit. After speaking with Lord Granchester on many occasions I'd suggest he could play the role of ensuring that only prospective owners whose interests were in line with the historical aims and aspirations of EFC were considered. I'd also advocate the inclusion of a board member to represent the interests of the minority shareholders and the club's other stakeholders, their fanbase, which would ensure transparency and honesty; concepts which whilst paid lip service to in recent years have become an alien concept at Goodison. Like I keep repeating, it's just my opinion ? nothing more, nothing less; you may have a different opinion, as can others.
The team has a greater value now because market forces dictate the cost of players. If you bought a mini in 1965 for £250 and bought one today it would cost £13,000 because that's the market price today, you're not better off, you still have a mini. I'm sure you've heard the old business adage of "turnover for vanity, profit for sanity"? We could raise £30m tomorrow and not increase our debt; I know it, you know it... and the board know it. It could be used to dramatically increase our commercial turnover but that's not going to happen under this board. What is going to happen is we'll get another deal where others appear to be paying yet we get the benefit, it used to be called getting a free lunch and we all know about those don't we?
As football supporters we are less likely to be in a position to suggest people or organisations that we would like to see take the club on (Icelandic banks would be a definite no, but I'd be happy to listen to Bill Gates make his case for ownership). It is also pointless as the question is really asked for exactly the same purpose as in any debate on Moyes, the implication being that Kenwright is the best we're likely to get, which may be true but it's desperately sad if so.
Would you prefer the Board to remain as is? If not, what changes would you like to see?
If you want rules in this pointless game, David, then can I suggest that instead of asking others who they would have as manager, Chairman, board members and then debating their choice, it should be the rule that if you ask the question, "Who would you like to see as...." it should be prefixed first with the choice of the person asking the question and his/ her reasons for the choice. That would open real debate rather than attempting to set people up.In a hypothetical world, I would be asking the likes of Richard Branson or Alan Sugar... good businessmen first...So come on, David, front up with your best choice...
My opinion is however that there are extenuating circumstances; the man has done all of this with effectively no budget, one of the smallest transfer funds and squads in the top half of the Premier League and his achievements have rightfully handed him three Manager of the Season awards and Manager of the Month awards aplenty.
It would be nice before he leaves to hand him a realistic budget for two seasons so that his true effectiveness can be measured unhindered; alas I think we will forever debate the issue as it's not going to happen.
Would I have another manager in his place? No, because we're unlikely to attract anyone who can operate under the same constraints; top managers go to clubs that can provide big transfer budgets, that's why Liverpool has Roy Hodgson!!!On the chairman front, you're happy to ignore the gross act of treason over Kirkby, the incompetence of NTL and KD the lies surrounding FSS. The stadium and the ability to increase commercial revenue is the responsibility of the board; here they've failed miserably, but you're happy to keep them in place.Professional organisations give annual appraisals. Sit each of the directors down in your mind and run through what they have done; frightening isn't it?TW's about opinions, that's why it works. Your opinion is Moyes and Kenwright's posse is the best available option; mine is also Moyes but we differ when it comes to the board. My opinion here is that we need a board designed to remove the unhealthy influence of a non-shareholder and sell the club to a party with the best interests of the club at heart.
Who's right? Who cares... it's a discussion on a website.
If, for example, Lord Grantchester was interested in taking a bigger control in the running of the club and brought with him a slice of his family's wealth, then that would be effective. However, the only things I have heard from Grantchester on these matters is when he is distancing himself from a bigger role at the club. However, I have never had any dealings with him and I believe you have, hence my earlier question to yourself: "I am sure you are right that Lord Grantchester would be able to play the role that you have stated, but the big question is does he want to? From what I have heard from him, he does not seem to have much interest in doing so. However, as you have had more interaction with him, you may be able to tell me differently?"
Bill Kenwright told the last shareholders meeting ever held that he had employed another shyster to act on behalf of the club in the sale process; weeks later, the documents delivered to the public inquiry confirmed the complete opposite. Remove Kenwright, remove Earl and you can start taking the club forward. By not wanting change, you're voting for the status quo to be maintained; no trophies, mid-table mediocrity, ever-increasing debt, and no cohesive business plan. That's your opinion and I'll accept it.
My concerns about this Board are not confined to Kenwright as Chairman; being the figurehead & a higher public profile undoubtedly makes him an easy target but he's now got plenty of black marks against his name, such as to eradicate any sympathy I might feel for him. Quite honestly, I doubt we'll see the club progress unless there are some changes at Board level - a clean sweep may be required.
Mind you I was pleasantly surprised by the plans for the Park End, so perhaps our Board are showing some glimmers of engagement with the club they're supposed to be running. It's just a shame the plans don't incorporate a second tier on the Park End stand.As for Moyes, I really like & respect the man even though I may be critical of him at times. I would love to see Moyes finally succeed in winning a trophy for Everton. I would love for him to prove himself a great manager rather than just a good one.
I also appreciate the argument that in our current circumstances it would be a tall order for any other manager to match, let alone exceed Moyes's performance on limited resources. Nonetheless, I no longer have faith that Moyes has what it takes to achieve that level of success, even if the club were able to offer him a reasonable transfer kitty each season.
Despite my misgivings, I would like to see him get the chance if we ever have the funds, & I'd love to see him succeed in the end.
Of course any change involves risk, but in a world where your rivals are trying to make progress then to stand still is to fall further behind comparatively ? so there are also risks if there are no changes made. You either think the changes necessary to fulfill our ambitions are worthwhile, even with accompanying risks, or you accept mediocrity due to your fear of failure & hope that is the less risky option.
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