Blunders abound as Lukaku misses a hat-trick

And we need some creative midfield play. So here's hoping that Ross Barkley steps up. He's due a big game. As is Naismith. No slip ups, no mistakes, no nonsense. Just three points. Plain and simple. Forever Everton...

At home to Leicester, we should not be playing two defensive mids and then to top that we play Naismith in an offensive position because of the amount of defensive work he gets through. Get Barkley back with Besic or McCarthy, doesn't matter which they both are pretty similar, and then get Mirallas on instead of Naismith and put Kone on through the middle.

Ross isn't much better, has he put a bet on how many times he can get it into Row Z? it's called the side of the foot, it gives you more accuracy!

They could nick this if they weren't clearly lacking in confidence, they've had better chances.

Howard has become a joke. I feel so sorry for Robles, he was starting to find his feet after a shaky start. I can't work out what's happened to our midfield and Lukaku has gone backwards. I can forgive Barkley as he's still a kid but the rest including Martinez need a rocket up their arse at the end of the season.

I predict we'll stay up (just) and Billy will keep Roberto on. However, if there is not a MASSIVE improvement next season then it's addios Roberto. We have the players now but they're just not performing for him.

MOB.

Half the season gone, and 3 wins at Goodison.

I was impressed with Gibson when he came on. Good from Naismith.

Howard must, absolutely must, be dropped.

I can’t wait for the post match interview when he tells us how phenomenal it was to come back from 2-1 down to draw. Well let me tell you, I had really bad diarrhoea on Saturday morning, as I heard and smelt it run out of me I couldn’t help but be reminded of Roberto Martinez talking

Poor performance all around. Lukaku should have netted at least 2 other goals aside from the one he glanced against Upson for the equaliser. Only bright spot for me was seeing Gibson back to his old self. Outstanding passing and awareness from him.

Robles plays in that game and Everton win it.

Atsu looked lively when he came on, Naismith was fantastic and Gibson was strangely dynamic. Lennon had a good game, but all in all it was the men at either end of our team that decided that result.

If Howard doesn't flap, we don't concede. If Lukaku could actually finish today we walk away comfortably.

We should be taking Leicester and teams like them apart, we are pretty dire this season, we need a proper manager who knows what he's doing, ASAP.

If only this man could stay fit. He sees and makes FORWARD incisive passes, perfectly weighted, that nobody else in our squad has the vision or the ability to imitate.

Absolutely incredible that he retains his place, almost a free pass, a 'make way, make way' from Martinez. A liability.

This is the worst season ever and we are in deep trouble.

We can blame Howard; Ross was not at it today and so on but this game proved beyond doubt that RM is completely out of his depth in the Premier League.

We are in a relegation battle, make no mistake simply because winning games against the likes of Leicester should be as close to a given as one can get in this league.

Whilst RM remains our manager, I shall make my point as often as possible until he has gone.

I laughed at Lukaku today. Which is a strange reaction.

This performance was dire by any yardstick. No excuses.

Martinez does not have the ability to motivate the team to kick on and has been exposed as a bit of a fraud to be honest. He has no Plan B and does not make examples of certain key players when they continually underperform.

To compound Martinez's weaknesses, we do not have a single leader on the pitch. No one really wants the ball and you can see them trying to get rid as soon as they have the damn ball. Gibson was the only player pushing forward with probing balls.

This summer we have to bring in a couple of players with balls or else it will be the same next season.

Hopefully we'll still be in the Premier League... but I don't have the confidence that others on this site on that issue.

Our form this season, both at home and away, is most definitely relegation form.

Yes, Lukaku missed a lot of chances, that happens with strikers!!! So let's get over it, I'm just glad the fans didn't boo him and he got in the right position to force the equaliser.

It's strange the players who are playing seemed to have lost confidence in RM, which is why we are so poor at home. Darren Gibson has got confidence as he hasn't played most of the season and he played well, he passed the ball forward... amazing!!!!

We are deep in a relegation battle now with Arsenal up next.

So frustrating to watch.

In the second half we made chances and he (mostly) missed them. They made a couple of chances and Howard failed to deal with them. We looked so much better with Gibson. Lennon and Atsu lively in patches. Howard must be dropped for Arsenal.

BTW he scored 3 midweek and missed 4 others that night. Could Kone be as bad?

As for Howard himself, he's flapping at high balls, not moving his feet, falling instead of diving, staying rooted to his line, distributing the ball poorly, panicking under pressure, not showing any degree of bravery and failing to hold on to almost every ball. How badly does he have to play to be dropped?

We know it won't happen but on a related point, Gibson looked fantastic when he came on. I didn't understand the sub at the time but, fair play, the boy done good.

Howard is past it, FFS.

Bad result for us, if we don't get 3 points in these type of games, then we can't complain about our position.

And for those screaming "Relegation, Relegation", my advice is look at the table. In spite of the shocking run of results, we are 12th in the league. I always think that goal difference is a more accurate reflection of where we will end up, and based on that, I think we will reach 10th – barely! (plus or minus).

Martinez is to blame for this terrible mess we are in. Once more, Besic is subbed off... WHY?

I must say in 30 years of following Everton, this is the most boring side I have ever watched. There is no urgency, even when we are behind late in games! Even Walter Smith sides entertained at times!

Howard really is a liability when balls are crossed into the area. two schoolboy keeping errors to gift wrap a point for Leicester, and like another poster said, he nearly gifted them the winner at the death. It doesn't matter who you play, if your keeper keeps dropping clangers, then you will be punished.

Now for Lukaku. He looks like another Amokachi to me. Big, clumsy, no first touch and can't hit a cows ass with a banjo! He even had the cheek to claim the goal! Old Jose must have been pissing himself when we offered 㿈M... Into his 2nd season and he seams so inconsistent.

I'm not one to call for managers' heads but something is so wrong at our club. Unless we drastically improve in what's left of this season, then Roberto must go on the final whistle of the season.

I can't think of another manager with such a poor home record keeping his job. I hope it is not all out for Europe regardless – if it is jeopardizing your league position.

Anyway, we can renew season tickets from tomorrow. See you all at the box office, 9am sharp!

Howard cost us 3 more points, we will go down coz we do not have the fight and strength of character which is a reflection of the manager.

And for that poll on who should play in the middle, Besic and McCarthy didn’t get my vote. Bollocks to this ’on paper we are a better team’... No we’re not – the results and performances says so.

Oh, by the way, give credit where itÂ’s due, Leicester played well and deserved more than one point. Good night.

Gary Megson... Come on down, your destiny awaits!

Today was not a disaster in of itself, but in the grander scheme of things it confirms the view of many that we are a club in decline under RM. When and where will this end...

I need this season to end now, and hopefully we are still in the Premier League by the end of it.

One totally pissed off Evertonian.

Second is that Gibson came on and gave us what we've been missing; a commanding midfielder who always looks for a forward pass. All of a sudden our forward players were making runs because they actually thought they'd get a pass. And guess what, we started creating chances and looked like a team with goals in it.

Third, imagine if Martinez had played the other striker he bought as well, you know, the one he just doesn't want to play?

So here's my take on the current situation. Martinez should get Robles straight back into the team. He should keep Gibson in and look for a similar player in case he gets injured again. He should play Kone up front with Lukaku and have two wide men. We would then have more goals in us and would be less prone to keeper error.

His decision-making has been shocking this season, so I'm not holding my breath. If he doesn't do these three things I'll be withholding any support I have for him keeping his job.

Martinez said Howard can lose his place if he doesn't perform. He wasn't performing before his injury and he hasn't performed since he came back. Let's see if he's up to dropping him or it's more bluster.

This isn't just a Howard bash. I just can't be arsed to write anymore about the likes of superstar Barkley and the rest of the shite I've just had to watch.

I believe in giving anyone a reasonable run to prove their ability and worth. I reckon Martinez, along with a few of our so-called stars, have had long enough.

Chatter during my brief time in the lounge was that both Martinez and BK are banking everything on getting into EC via winning the Europa and that there is little fear of relegation in high places.

It takes some believing but given that Roberto was engaged on the back of his winning the FA Cup – it could hardly have been his 25% Premier win record at that point – the gossip could well be right.

So it's 'hey lads, hey' in the Europa whilst we continue to scratch our way to 36 points and safety in the league.

Who'd be a bloody Evertonian, hey? But Bill will see us OK!

Again, our tactics were poor. Leicester created more for much of the game, and Lukaku and Barkley looked devoid of all confidence. We improved markedly when we were desperate and played the ball forward at pace, and when Gibson, a passer, came on and started passing. Martinez is not to blame for Gibson, Pienaar and Osman being injured, but he is to blame for the failure to buy a passing midfielder when his tactics rely on it, and on his insistence on playing passing tactics when they do not suit the players we have fit, and in the first 11.

He should go. This is not about the Europa League, where we have been consistently impressive, it's about the league, where we have been consistently poor. Martinez started the season with unfit players – he is to blame for that. Martinez implemented tactics which were wrong for this team. Martinez has played a series of AMC/strikers out wide (and in the process nullified our attacking full back/s).

Martinez failed to buy the creative presence we need. Martinez has failed to keep a lid on discontent and on egos. Martinez has failed to play to the strengths of our record signing. Martinez has failed to put pressure on referees as others managers do, until too late. Martinez has inexplicably dropped Robles, after he found form. Martinez continues to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Martinez has taken perhaps the most promising Everton squad in 20 years, and turned them into bottom half shit, and in the process, reversed the overachieving legacy which became part of Moyes Everton, and created the foundation for the best Everton squad in 20 years. Martinez should go, before the big players do, and we become the Everton of bottom half struggles again.

"It is a fantastic sign to have the character we have shown to get a point out of the game. The character was very pleasing on a very difficult day."

And he's blaming coming back from Europe again. Bollocks. Lack of effort/fatigue was not a problem. Unbalanced set-ups and howlers at both ends.

Big Rom needs to shut up and do his talking on the pitch,how many good chances did he miss today?

Lennon is not worthy of a contract with Everton, another typical "head down" winger going now where.

As a team of footballers Everton need sorting out,and I am now beginning to think that Martinez is not capable of doing just that. The season started with very poor preparation,and has continued. As soon as we meet a team that is any way decent in the Europa League, that will be that!

The only positive from the result today was we should have lost and we got lucky with a point. If we can not beat the likes of Leicester (with respect) then big questions need to be asked of our manager. In saying this, we will not be relegated.

I'm very curious about the next game. Will he continue with the out of form keeper, will he bring back the out of form midfielder, will he bench the midfielder who made a big difference when he came on today, will he persist with the boy wonder who has done nothing for the last 12 months, will he continue not to play the striker he bought and nursed back from injury, will he persist with playing an unbalanced team?

Gibson was man of the match for me, although I don't think he can perform for 90 minutes, but he created more in half an hour than most have this season.

Loads on here love the Europa League, it can also be the cause of us going down. The performance today was very poor indeed.

I didn't realise Martinez had said that. Dug himself a serious hole there. Howard as at fault in my eyes for the goal on Thursday and then the disaster today. If any good can come from today, it's that Martinez HAS to consider that Howard isn't Number One any more.

Shit second half. Crap goalkeeping. Move on. We'll stay up.

Somebody mentioned who was worse – Howard or Lukaku? Howard all day long. A striker can miss 6 sitters, and it sounds not far from Lukaku's performance today, but convert one and we get the points. Howard makes 6 mistakes and we get beat. Simple as. General consensus he's cost us 15-18 points enough is enough.

One final point: all these big time (Belgian) Charlies who want CL football will have to learn how to play twice a week and not just turn up for the Euro games.

As someone said earlier as soon as we meet class opposition in the Europa League we will exit the competition and be left facing a relegation battle to end the season with. I'm sad to say it but Martinez must go if that happens. He probably should've gone 6 or 7 weeks ago really.

If it's really not possible to catch or put the ball out, deflecting it towards the nearer corner flag is next.

In Robles' first match, he looked nervous, and tried to punch everything that came near him. In the next couple, he began to catch the ball and to come out of the goal and dominate the penalty area.

He has a tendency to misjudge when to pursue the ball with an opposition player on it, but over the course of a few matches, seemed to relax a bit and his judgement got better and better.

In other words, he was a young goalkeeper starting to get control of his own nerves and to give the defence confidence that he would at least try to get the situation under control.

Howard, since returning, has managed a weak punch straight out to a Chelsea player, grossly misjudged a 30 yard shot, played one straight out to an opposing forward 6 yards from goal, and took the sting out of a cross so that an opposing forward could get to the ball.

If Howard was 25, we might think he would improve (as Lukaku might), but he won't.

After the serial errors of judgement and technique in the past three games, he should never play for Everton again.

These words from the man who promised the Chairman Champions League...

If "character" means "disorganisation", "very pleasing" means "cringe making display of inept football, with shocking team selection compounded by atrocious lack of skill displayed at both ends", "difficult day" means "Leicester, bottom of the league and very unlucky not to have won" then I entirely agree with Mr Martinez.

Kenwright has been responsible for mismanagement of Everton Football Club. His continuing support for this out-of-his-depth charlatan is adding to his destruction of the club.

Paul, we've beaten one of the best sides in the Europa League twice (Wolfsburg). Our style seems to suit the European games but not the hustle and bustle of the PL where we become clueless.

Dave (90), our poor league form has got nothing to do with the Europa League. We've been shit all season and at our worst over the festive period when we weren't even playing in Europa League

Mark Frere, you think the Europa Cup is not affecting the league position, you might be right, but I’ll tell you it ’s definitely not helping and it will have a bearing on us staying in the premiership.

Sadly our displays in the PL, all season, have been nothing short of pathetic!

Robles was in form and had played his way to the #1 spot. Howard should not have walked right back into the starting position. Howard was definitely responsible for one of the goals and arguably both.

Roberto has made a selection error.

How a team can look so confident on Thursday and look so poor a couple of days later is beyond me . Build up play today was slow and ponderous and this must have been the tactics the manager wanted. As far as Howard playing RM has already stated that he is his #1 keeper and like his chairman is to stubborn to admit he made a mistake.

Everton FC is not going to change while we have a Chairman who has no backbone or vision for the future of the club. All though stranger things have happened I do not see RM being fired so these extremely poor performances are going to continue.

We are now coming into March and for the last 3 months we have been complaining about our poor league performances but it appears that only the supporters are the ones concerned while the clubs spin doctors spout excuses.

We have to get the people or person in charge of this club to do something positive or we are going to sink to just a mid table club with a great history.

Hahahaha.

Our league position is fucking hilarious. I can't get rid of the smile on my face ha ha ha ha ha fucking ha..

Nothing funny about our league position. Never said that.

What's fucking hilarious are the idio**... people on this site who have no concept of perspective and want the axe to fall on a young, progressive manager.

Ummmmmm.....

Why? Thursday was a pretty good display. I prefer to remember it.

The manager relegated wigan with his pure football ideologies. I thought it was the lack of quality in the wigan side but when I look at the quality we have, there can only be one person to blame. Sadly I don't see change coming soon, teams have worked us out and that is what worries me the most.

The manager is very lucky with villa in the bottom three has taken the heat from our appalling form. I like the manager but I love my club and fear of going down this year or next is very realistic prospect.

Yes Jamie, let's blindly support him and say that everything is fine and dandy.

So how is he progressive then exactly?

We're effectively 7 points clear with our goal difference and thats a lot for the teams below to make up. It'll take a monumental collapse from us and a monumental improvement from the teams below for us to go down.

Never gonna happen. I'll take any bet on it.

The lowest point so far has been the defeat at Southampton, the worst performance by a coach I have ever witnessed at any level. However, I fear he has more up his sleeve. His preparation, team selection, tactics, substitutions, motivation and media performance have for some time been utterly inept. He should have been sacked weeks ago but I fear we are stuck with him.

We have the best squad for some time but have , in my view, a rival for Walker as the worst to ever stink out Goodison Park.

Not sure Bobby has the cajones to sit out a senior player. Contract terms or not, he seems to do everything in his power to avoid making that decision.

Howard should not even be considered for another minute of match time unless Robles falters. It is suicide to play him now as the uncertainty he presents has crept back into the psyche of the defense. They look much more confident when playing in front of Robles.

Barks just needs to sit for the time being. Bring him on as a sub but he should not be starting. Nais should to play in his natural central mid position. I don't really care who plays out wide as they are all kack, at present.

It was good to see Gibson show what he's always had in his locker. Although I would be cautious lining him up for any extended playing role as he will either be dropped when Barry returns or will blow his knee out getting on the team bus.

That brings me to Señor Brown Shoes - I am still not sure whether he has the ability (mental and tactical) to do the job. He really does seem more cut out for continental football. As we all know, to compete in the EPL you need to play with pace - from back to front. We have that ability in the squad yet he doesn't seem willing or able to adjust his tactics to leverage it. This, for me, is the most worrisome trait I see in him. Every manager adjusts his style and tactics based on the personnel he has at his disposal. EVERY successful manager has had to do this at some time in their career. Still trying to determine whether he is too stubborn or too inept to realize this.

No I don't find Roberto's performace in every aspect acceptable. In fact, I said he made an error by starting Howard back from injury and it bit us in the ass again.

There's been plenty of things this season where I've scratched my head.

I think there's a general overreaction to any game where we don't get 3 points. I think calling for Roberto's head on a spike is way, way over the top.

I believe Roberto will come good. I believe we are far more likely to right the ship and have a season like we did last year again. I believe this season has been very difficult for a myriad of reasons. Although it's been difficult I think Roberto is the right man at Everton and the man most likely to repeat his performance of 70+ points in a season.

When you say 'progressive', I think of managers like Koeman and Pochettino who regularly give youngsters a chance.

He regularly sticks to his favourites and shows no sign of giving youngsters a go, that's not progressive. That's stagnant.

Have a look at the table we are only 6 points better than the team in relegation and 32 points behind the top team with no chance of finishing in the top 6
.
We have been dragged down in a relegation battle with a manager with a premier winning record of I believe has been quoted as 28%.

Bizarre totally unbalanced team selections.

Slow, boring tactics.

Lack of motivation for the players.

Conclusion - Something has to change.
The manager has to take responsibility and the chairman has to show some leadership and make the necessary changes.

He's changing the ethos of Everton Football Club. He's trying to at any rate. He wants an attacking, possession-minded team. I for one applaud that. That's progressive when compared to TGT.

Re youth, I agree (Roberto's not the Pope...) he's handled Garbutt poorly. He should have started today and I'm afraid he's on his way out the door this summer and we will really regret it.

I take the good with the bad. I think Roberto and his approach will come good. It's going to take time. I'm willing to give him through the end of next year. And because I think if he succeeds we will be far, far better off for it... I'm giving him a ton of rope.

Which leaves 8 teams trying to avoid the remaining couple of places.

EFC too good to go? Not from what I see.

3 away games in March (Arsenal, Stoke and QPR) and home to NUFC. I reckon on current form we'll be going into April on 31 points maximum.

From then on, our easiest two fixtures on paper are at home to Sunderland and Burnley - and the latter are showing far more spirit than we are.

If we do survive (by the skin of our teeth), how much faith remains in RM to take us forward?

You know, the same player that had a hat trick on Thursday?

Howard = Pathetic. Coleman and Baines = useless first half, not much better second.
Besic and Macca = didn't work as expected, or hoped for.
Lukaku, Lennon = bloody useless.
Barkley = invisible.

Only Stones, Jags, Gibson and Naismith showed any desire in that game. Atsu is a waste of space as well. Roberto, get your act together or leave.

I instinctively knew that the sort of success we saw on Thursday would enable a confident Martinez to immediately revert to his beloved possession football. This meant we effectively wasted the first half of this game.

We should have been pressing them hard from the start. The way we played in the second half should have been how we played from the kick off.

What decent team plays a patient game at home against the bottom team in the league? Answer – one Managed by Roberto Martinez.

Evertonians should be prepared for any success we can cobble together this season (or for that matter at any time in the future in the future) – by playing a more urgent direct attacking game – to be followed by a return to the Martinez brand of possession football (which has thrilled us for such a large part of this season) as swiftly as he was forced to abandon it.

Once any pressure is off him – he will go back to his deep rooted philosophy until eventually you achieve relegation. He is like a zealot who can knows it's only a matter of time before his beliefs are universally adopted.

Not only that I am pissed off walking home from Goodison Park in shite weather following a shire result!

His managerial record suggests he has no place in the Premier League so I don't know where you get the idea he is progressive unless you mean he progressively destroys clubs.

Name me one club he has managed where another manager has not done better and then try to convince yourself that he is "progressive".

It's the managers fault were in this position no one else's, so yes, he should be held accountable.

I've just watch a young player called Ibe have a really good game for a certain team across the park, what are some posters on here advocating?

If Garbutt doesn't sign a contract probably well below what Ibe is earning then bin him. How the fuck are we supposed to improve if we sell our best young talent and let this charlatan of a manager play his over the hill favourites.

I rateGarbutt better than Ibe and at least Brenda has the balls to give the lad his chance.

I wonder if Lukaku had converted more than one of his like 68 chances how different the tone would be here?

But he didn't, did he!

I wonder how different the tone would be here if we won today?

But we didn't, did we! (Against the bottom side).

Ifs, buts and maybes don't win anything in case you haven't noticed.

I'm sorry but that's rubbish. We were not that bad under Moyes, we played some decent football often lacking end product but we were certainly no duller than the pass-it-sidewaysathons we have seen this season. Our football this year in the league has been woeful and what's even more concerning is the longer Martinez stays the worse it seem to get. First half of last season was great, second half of last season was ok, first half of this season was poor and second half has been diabolical!

If that's the progression that you're after then I can only assume you're a fan of the Championship!

I was not sure about Martinez but remained open minded. I believe it takes time to build something special. Last season I began to think he could be the man; I began to believe. This season he has made some unforgivable decisions and we look far less than the sum of our parts. Unless we begin to play much better very soon then I will have to jump firmly aboard the Martinez out bandwagon, though realistically I suspect (unless he relegates us) he will definitely be given another shot.

I'm behind the man, what he's trying to do, and I think he'll turn this all around. Not as quickly as some would like, but he will.

Again, I'm giving him until the end of next year because I think he'll come good.

So you won't find me with the baying pitchfork crowd until that time comes.

And yes there's definitely room and cause for criticism as I've said.

Ta-ta

Next season is massive. It'll show us the true RM in my opinion.

You mean in the Championship?

So that is 20 games out of 26 this season then Jamie.

Why oh why do you continue to play Flapper Howard when Robles was starting to play well? Why put Baines back in when Garbutt has never let you down? Why listen to the uninformed and play Besic and McCarthy together when neither have the nouse or experience to open up a 10 man defence? Why not give Kone at least a few minutes when it was obvious that Lukaku wouldn't even score a tap in? Why didn't you drag off Ross after 30 minutes when it was obvious the lad was having a howler? Why bring on Atsu when it's obvious that apart from quick feet he offers very little in terms of creativity?

This is just not good enough Roberto and you know it.

Remind me what happened to Lambert.

We actually have a worse record this season than under Smith in his last season.

That's terrifying.

Its back to square zero as defensively the lack of organisation will probably mean the side will become very cagey in the next few games. It will mean more tight games and a reduced attacking threat.

But we're supposed to forget about Thursday... I forgot...

What we witnessed to day in the first half was a return to the pedantic so called 'patient' football that he loves. The problem is it's us, the fans, who have to be patient - endlessly so when watching this invariably unproductive attempt to create an opening.

Martinez' problem is for many of us a fairly simple one to diagnose. He is apparently irreversibly tied in to a brand of football which, with our players, produces a slow, pendantic and over-deliberate build of our attacking moves. Whether that is because of the players we have I'm nor certain.
The bottom line is I don't care. I don't want to watch it. I and I think many Evertononians prefer fast direct attacking football on top of a solid defence. Now it would be stupid to thinks that's what we'll get for most of the time. But if I've got a choice between a manager who wants to aim for a more direct style as against the dream that Marinez has - I'll take the former anytime.
Martinez looks like someone whose locked in the past. He's more Barcelona (without the players) than Bayern Munich - or for that matter Real Madrid.
His romantic vision fits in well with our Chairman whose vision of the future lies completely in the past. The clock stopped on our Goodison timeline some years ago.
Whatever happens in the future I simply want us to get a manager with a proven track record from wherever that may be. But I don't want Marrinez.

I argued before the match we should play Macca and Barkley as the defensive partnership. But Barkley really looks like he is struggling and if Gibson is as fit as he looked today he would have been a better choice.

It is really frustrating to see how slow the ball is moving in our passing game. Jags passes must be way slower than my U 11 teams passing. And Macca and Besic is much the same. Gibson seems to have a completely different passing range. ( as I think Barry had last season). It must be so easy to defend when we pass around like we did in first half.

What's the betting ?

For all his limitations, Naismith did well, not least of all in scoring, but we are so one-dimensional, lacking craft.

It is scandalous that Atsu has been kept on the bench for so long while McGeady has been allowed to ruin our season. Atsu didn't have a great game today, but he's been given no chance, and he clearly is very able.

The team is like Martinez: predictable, soft and lacking substance. For all his offensive bluster, Martinez is quite defensive-minded. We play deep, slow and end up with a wall in front of us time and again.

I don't know him personally, but I sense from what I see and hear from him that RM isn't an intelligent manager, however suave a wordsmith he is in front of the cameras. He rarely, if ever, outwits any counterpart.

Martinez tried to change the tempo of the game and succeeded to a degree but was let down by someone who fails to do what most of us know he will do.

Not good enough and if Soft Lad plays again the same pattern will appear with him.

We were dire, but at least Lukaku showed why he’s too good for us....ahem. Gibson showed a few good touches, and can at least make a pass. Coleman (and Baines) looked as though their hearts weren’t in it.

Leicester fans were good though. All their songs seemed to be based on seventies hits - these are my kind of people! Even had one based on Pilot’s Magic, which took me back to my GCEs. Everton were crap then too.

I hope in 2 years time this season will be long forgotten as was Moyes 2nd full season (2003/04) which is on a par with this. I want Roberto to succeed but Ive a feeling he won't be in this job at Christmas!!

Fucking heartbreaking, 4 wins out of 7 in Europe and only 6 in the Prem!

I'd love an answer from Jamie in response to this point?

We looked much better today when Gibson came on, because he can pick a pass. We would be able to play this style far more effectively if we had passing midfielders - but we don't. Barkley is not creative, or a passer. Mirallas? No. Naismith? No. McGeady, who was brought in by Martinez? No. Atsu, who was brought in by Martinez? No. Lennon? No.

This is what I cannot fathom, and why I think Martinez must go. There is an irreconcilable conflict between the style he is imposing, and the players onto whom he is imposing the style. I do not think we will go down, and I think we may well do well in the Europa League because teams will come onto us in a way in which they do not in the Premier League. But, I cannot support a manager who is acting in such an unintelligible way. Does anyone disagree that Martinez is playing a short passing game? Does anyone disagree with my assessment of our players? Is no one else wondering why he did not invest in a creative midfield passer, rather than one dimensional wingers, who hold the ball, in general, for far too long? We cannot be successful playing this short passing game with this team. We could be successful if we kept the ball on the ground, but were quicker and more direct, but we are not. I know that the players are low, and when confidence is low players pick the easy pass, but the problems are deeper than that. Intriguingly, we were alot more dangerous when Gibson came on today, and when we were desperate and went direct. It reminded me, in part, of the West Ham match when we went alot more direct after going down to 10 men. Gibson the passer helped us, but so did the need to score, and the need to move the ball quicker and more directly.

That's why Martinez has lost me: Because I cannot understand him. Every team goes through bad periods, and sometimes there are freak seasons. Borussia Dortmund have demonstrated that with an almighty collapse from a far higher height than ours. But, I do not see this team ever reaching its potential under Martinez, because he refuses to play to their strengths. I also do not believe that Barkley will get anywhere near to achieving his potential in this set up. I never joined the Barkley bandwagon, and I thought he was over-hyped to be honest, but his current performances are horrible to behold. He is playing with fear, without confidence, and without spirit. The same confidence which has disappeared from Lukaku's game. The same Lukaku, who if confident, could have added a hat-trick to his assist today. The same Lukaku who scored 17 and 15 Premier League goals in successive seasons as a 19/20 and 20/21 year old.

I think managers should always get time, because chairmen are too quick to pull the trigger. But this side has been poor since the end of last season, and I fear that our club could suffer serious damage with Martinez at the helm. I do believe we could have a better season next year with him, free from Europa League football, and after he has theoretically added the creative midfield presence we desperately need. I also think that confidence would change the way this team is playing to an extent. But a future with Martinez would be a limited future. Tags of 'progression' related to an imagined conception about his Spanish style of exciting football, which has consistently failed to materialise on the pitch over the last 10months. He had a great season last year, but did so after adding very good players to a fantastic Moyes foundation (Especially our defense). I'd love him to succeed but I do not think for a moment that he will, both in my heart, and more importantly, in my head.

Personally, I'd get rid in the summer, unless our flirtation with relegation gets more serious.

I also expect that Robles will come in on Thursday, because the tie is ours, but Howard will come back on Sunday. I'd love Martinez to prove me wrong, but I fear that he won't, because he his 'progressive' positivism conceals a stubborn centre.

" I think it's an overreaction coming off the performance from Thursday.

But we're supposed to forget about Thursday... I forgot... "

Or maybe it's a continued frustration and exasperation that, since we beat Wolfsburg in Germany in the EL at the end of November - 3 months ago, we have played 14 league games (more than a third of the season).

Our league form in those 14 games reads:
W 2, D 5, L 7 F 11 A 17 Pts 11 (out of a possible 42).

Or ... maybe I forgot ... we are meant to forget about our league results and only concern ourselves with the EL results under the visionary 'progressive' Roberto...?

I agree with you that it's infuriating that Roberto seems to prefer his system of possession football when it often appears he doesn't have the horses he needs to run the race.

Here's the thing Jim, and definitely call me naive and a dreamer!

I want us to try to play that way. I want us to try and become THE footballing side on a shoe string budget and be the envy of everyone.

Yes man, no question! At present it's frustrating as hell!

Maybe it's that I'm hanging on to last season far too much.

But... I want Roberto to stay the course through this. I want to go through hell to get to heaven. And because of that...

I'm not going to berate Roberto for his errors currently. I'm going to ride out the rough patch. I'm going to back the man.

Because I firmly, FIRMLY, believe that the pot of gold is on the other side of the rainbow.

And I'm prepared to allow this man who I believe, despite his faults, has a good footballing brain and tries to play the game the right way, THREE full years to get this right.

It's my contention, my desire, and my belief he'll get it right and we'll enjoy the fruits of Roberto's labor and the current "Troubles" will be squarely in the rear view mirror for years to come.

You may say, I'm a dreamer, and I'm probably the only one. I hope some day, I'm spot on and you'll join me, and Evertonians will live and rejoice as one...

Apologies to one Mr. Lennon.

You have, and everyone "in your camp" has, valid points that currently are much closer to reality than mine. I'm living for the future because I believe it's the best thing for Everton. I might be wrong... often am. Time will tell.

I await the guys departure. Though I'm not holding my breathe.

It doesn't, hasn't and won't work with these players.

At times today we were playing 6 at the back, big hole in midfield, then a pick & mix up top.

Gibbo illustrated the problem perfectly, we need a ball playing midfielder with half a brain. I believe Barry played this role quite well last year but has been dog shit since and I'm not blaming RM for once.

We're not too good to go down. Ourselves and Villa have been creeping towards the abyss for years and now we're staring at it.

I'll be at The Emirates on Sunday cheering the lads on, I hope for something better then today.

"I agree with you that it’s infuriating that Roberto seems to prefer his system of possession football when it often appears he doesn’t have the horses he needs to run the race."

You can’t have it both ways, Jamie ... It’s basically the same squad as last year that had many more than just yourself dreaming that Everton could be "THE footballing side on a shoe string budget and be the envy of everyone."

And that’s the frustration, the disappointment for many. He hasn’t progressed the side and players, as you try to imply Jamie. Rather, he has regressed both the team and individual players.

For such a well-known student of the game, this season he has shown no variation in his game plan when confronted by sides who nullify last season’s successful strategy.

Even the innovative, timely and match changing substitutions and tweaking of in game strategies of last season are a distant memory. I struggle to recall a single substitution this season which telling changed the destiny of the game.

And Bob, unfortunately I think Pienaar, Osman and Gibson are the best passers in the squad, along with Baines perhaps. That is the real problem: Pienaar and Osman are suited for the style, and both are passed their best, and both have been unfit this season.

I'm dreading this summer, not just because of where we might finish, and the significant financial implications of a lower placed finish, but because of who we might lose. Whilst some would celebrate his departure on here, I could see Lukaku leaving, and then really impressing elsewhere when his confidence returns, and he is playing in a team with tactics better suited to his style. If United or Chelsea come in for Stones or Coleman, after we have finished 12th, will we have any chance of keeping them? I think some on here might look at this as a freak season; as a one off perform storm of failure, before we resume the standard fight for European places next season. I hope that's the case, but I fear that the aftershock from this season could resound for sometime. It's all the more frustrating because I think that we are better than all but 5 teams in this league, and should be able to give anyone a game on our day.

Thank fuck for the Europa League, for being the light within the shirt storm. That's all we have to distract us from a battle to get numerically safe, and Jamie, that's where I'll be directing my capacity to dream.

And Ross, the very idea that we should judge Martinez on next season fills me with utter dread. Surely there can't be a next season. Surely.

Firstly I think you're on "your" side of the Atlantic in Blighty so go to bed man! ;0)

A few things -

I'm with you on the focusing on Europa. It's all we have. But... I believe (I've started way too many sentences with those two words today) Martinez came into the season wanting to hit a home run and he prioritized Europa over the domestic campaign. I think the man wants to come true on his promise of CL football and he sees a way in through this competition.

Re the players and the system... I take your point. We agree on one thing for sure. You speak of Rom leaving and Stones as well. They are both excellent young players. Next year, yes year three - the year I keep carping on about as we should give Roberto three years - is absolutely massive. If we don't do something extraordinarily meaningful next year the best young players are off, and we're back to square one. If at that time post year three we just miss out on 4th place and pull in 70+ points, I'll say keep Roberto. If we end up 10th with no European Football and two other quick cup exits...

I'll say Jim Knightley was right. He's English and the game is in his blood. He knows the game and I should have listened.

I pray for both of us that I can say, "listen to the American! I see things you can't from a fresh perspective! Now who's the "soccer" expert friend?"

Re the players for the system... I have such a lengthy response I can't begin to go into it. Another time. I agree and disagree with your premise. Some players fit well (including Rom believe it or not), some don't. Some were "carryovers" from Wigan.

One thing I'll say is the page needs to turn this summer. We don't have the moola to make a complete page turn, but 4 dead weights minimally need to leave and 4 new players that fit Roberto's mold need to come in.

I don't think it's absurd to cling to the performance on Thursday.

I actually thought (?) I posted in the pregame thread that I feared the Thursday hangover. Whether I posted that or not... I thought I did... the hangover is certifiably real.

The domestic campaign is shit. Plain and simple we're deep enough into the season to realize it as such.

Insofar as saying it's enough to oust Roberto which was and is my overriding point?

No. Not for me. No way.

I want to give Roberto more time.

Again, and I realize I may be a lone voice... I think the best thing for Everton Football Club is to allow Roberto to continue implementing his vision.

Of course we should be doing better and of course Martinez has been at fault many times for his constant changing the starting line-up, and weird subs (or none at Southampton) so has to take some blame for the lack of results.

I'm still in the keep him camp though (for now) as I don't see how changing manager would help us at this stage. I'm also not losing my shit about us being relegated, nor am I one for laying into players or managers when things don't go well. It's support they need, not blame and pressure. We're supposed to be on the same side but everyone on here just argues half the time and I find it pointless.

Voicing our opinions is one thing, slagging off and abusing our own players and manager is counter productive. I've never seen such a terrible atmosphere at Goodison as I have this season and we're really not helping the team at times.

Chelsea had a tough game against Burnley at the weekend and drew at home, albeit with 10 men for the last 20 minutes. There are no easy games in the Premier League and we have no divine right to win against anyone, home or away.

We will stay up, I just wish Martinez would stop fucking about with the lineup and making odd subs at odd times. WTF he was doing taking Barkley and Besic off after 55 minutes last night is beyond me.

With that in mind, I don't blame the players who went off, or those who came on, but the manager for making a completely pointless and senseless change in the circumstances.

The game changed from there on, and not for the better. Weird thinking from RM.

Yes, they're both unlikely but they are the calibre we should be looking at for future managers.

Did you not notice Leicester start to sit deeper when Gibson came on?

Tackling or not, he is one of the few players we have who can pass a ball forward with any degree of accuracy.

Until he came on we where knocking it from side to side and the foxes where very comfortable in dealing with that. Gibson was always looking for the through ball and was far more effective than any other player who played the full 90.

I'd of given him MOM in fact.

and "We would be able to play this style far more effectively if we had passing midfielders - but we don't. Barkley is not creative [nor Mirallas, Nais, McGeady, Atsu, Lennon].... There is an irreconcilable conflict between the style he is imposing, and the players onto whom he is imposing the style." Well said.

I have different opinions to you over Howard and Gibson, but that is all it is, different points of view, but over the relegation issue I would really like to know why you are so sure.

I would have sworn blind that Lambert was a massively talented manager after his feats at Norwich but he just didn't cut it at Villa and had to go. I really want Martinez to go because I have no faith he will change things. The drivel he spouts, the weakness of his leadership and the rest are just nails in the coffin. He is simply not good enough for our club.

I really hope you and Ross are wrong about this, though it would be just like us to keep him on next season. On the plus side, there won't be a major international tournament to distract him from his day job.

It's disgraceful that we should even be discussing relegation. The decline from last season is unacceptable.

You would think that someone at Everton would have noticed the difference this position makes and spent money on a younger less prone to injury type midfielder than Gibson, and then as supporters , we will believe that some of us do now something about the game.