Martinez rejects “inflexible” label

So presumably watching every game week week out does not count as following his work.

“I am not someone who needs to defend myself......."
The results BEG to differ. In addition, having already manged a team to relegation once, don't you think, just maybe....

Add delusional to inflexible.

The only reason I've eased off the guy for a while is that I can clearly see that tactics have changed. He's even listened to the players and allowed them to have a tactical input.... for now thats ok by me.

Seriously though, last year this guy was happy to boast he has one way of playing that the lads had bought into, but now its gone tips up he's saying he plays all different ways? Smacks of someone who once had a plan, but now it's been sussed then he doesn't actually have another one.

Please Bill put this poor guy out of his misery for his own as much as the club's.

Sounds of a dead man walking..

Provided we get results and play in a manner which is pleasing on the eye, he can recite the Moscow telephone directory if he wishes.

But this season has been one in which our performances have once again anchored the team in mid table mediocrity. And given the noises from various agents, it is looking like there will be quite a few changes in personnel over the close season.

All this is down to our very flexible manager! I can't wait for next season!

Whatever, it's not attractive football, but I think it's the best we can expect from the squad we've got and Martinez's unwillingness to risk playing younger players when the likes of Barry are fit (the exception being Stones - but with Distin and Alcaraz the other options, he hardly has a choice).

Jagielka may be one of the best English centre halves, Baines may be the best left back, Coleman even the best right back in the country, but I doubt any of them would be automatic choices in any of the current top 4 Premiership teams. Mirallas shows flashes of brilliance but lacks consistency, as does Barkley. The rest of the regulars are hardly title-winning quality.

Above all what I think all of them lack is composure/confidence/skill to hold the ball while looking for incisive passes or opportunities to run past or at defenders. The result is turgid sideways passing (blimey, Neville would have slotted in perfectly) until someone gives the ball away and the opposition score. And I can still not fathom out why the opposition always seem to have so much more space going forward than we are ever allowed.

So, in essence, I think Martinez got the best he could out of the team in his first year. I can't see him taking them any further now - but there's no way he's going to resign, and no way Kenwright will ever sack him - so that's what we're stuck with. Next season: more Martinez-ocrity...

I liked him better last season when he actually was inflexible. The team knew what it was doing and picked itself. It scored goals, defended well and won games. There was nothing wrong with that 'system' that a better keeper, centre half, creative midfielder and striker wouldn't have put right. It was a solid platform to build on. I don't buy the 'sussed out' argument. He bottled it and changed what worked into a mess.

All this bollocks about 'inflexibility' and 'no plan B' are a convenient smokescreen for Martinez. I'd like the journalists to ask him the following:

Why did you replace a system that worked with a disorganised, confusing free-for-all that clearly doesn't?

What exactly were you doing regarding the pre-season?

Did you want to buy the '7 players' or were your hands tied by the directors?

Why do you keep playing players out of position and who are out of form?

Why do you keep buying players, praise them, then not play them?

Why do you keep talking about great football and then have us watch the shite served up this season?

Why have we rarely had more than 2 or 3 shots on goal per game this season?

Why do the players always look knackered, or are out injured?

Why do you bring back players from injury too early?

What exactly are you going to do to change things round next season?

These are the real questions. I'll happily go down to Finch Farm and ask them myself if Prentice is scared of losing his job.

Kenwright doesn't realise how lucky he was to get David Moyes at the time he did and love him or loathe him, he did a good job for the club and for BK.

Martinez is being asked to do similar but he doesn't have the street-fighting nature of Moyes or the experience of Smith and it does look as if he is floundering on the rocks and rather than withdraw and keep the press at bay he is seeking to justify the unjustifiable. Kenwright should have gone for somebody of more PL experience from a bigger football club than Wigan Athletic.

I said earlier in the season that this season and next could well shape our fortunes for the next decade, in my opinion we need to have a new man in charge come August else we will be in serious trouble for many future seasons.

Yes, Martinez,you certainly do vary it.

He sticks with the same style of play for 7 months of the season even tthough it was obvious in the last few games of last season that people were on to it. Even between Christmas and February when we were absolute dogshit and so easy to play against, he still persevered with the same style week in week out that had failed.

That is not a flexible manager, that's the sign of a man who has absolutely no idea what he's doing. We've been absolutely horrendous all season, he's been clueless for the majority, then we get 3 fortunate wins and suddenly we're meant to believe that everything is now fine and that Martinez is some kind of tactical genius all of a sudden? I'm sorry but that is absolute bollocks.

At Wigan his teams were totally inept for 28 games then all of a sudden they stay up and people think 'Look at him, what a flexible manager he is, changing his team's fortunes around well done', but no, if he was such a fucking genius he'd have done something months earlier wouldn't he instead of sticking with the same old failing tactics every week.

He says this a few days after the Southampton win guarantees our safety. Do you know what that reeks of to me? That's his attitude of 'I've fixed this now, we're safe, everything's fine now, look at what a great manager I am, I've proved you wrong'.

The man is deluded and embarrasses himself every time he opens his mouth.

Given the majority of poster's on ToffeeWeb, are clearly of the view that he has already reached this stage of his short, but eventful Everton career, that is not the overall view amongst my match going Everton mates.

At least 50% want to give him another season to 'get it right'.

Sadly, he just doesn't do himself any favours with his media and press statements. Quite frankly, I switch off the radio or TV when I hear him pre or post match now, because I cringe when I hear his latest nonsense.

I could go on forever about the utter rubbish he has spouted about individual players in the past.

Eg Atsu, ''he is going to have a terrific second half to the season, and will really feature in this team''

Lukaku, '' he will be one of the best centre forwards in Europe''

Everytime he spouts about an individual player, it's like he gives them the dreaded kiss of death.

I actually enjoyed his positivity in the early stages of his Everton career, having endured the utterings of the 'dour one' for eleven years.

But as one mate said to me a little while ago, at least with Moyes, you felt you were watching the same match?

Back to my initial point though, does this manager have enough ability to really turn things around on a permanent basis next season?

I'm not sure he does, he needs to make some pretty impressive close season signings to improve the team in key areas, most notably in midfield where the lack of creativity is alarming, central defence where an injury to Stones or Jagielka would find us wanting again, and an attacker who can provide us with an additional 10-15 goals should Lukaku (if he's still with us) get injured.

We also lack genuine pace throughout the team, not helped if we return to the tika taka football we have witnessed for the majority of the season.

There are so many questions to be asked about this manager, from tactics, team selection, style of play, and a real lack of a plan B during games,that I'm not sure he really does have the managerial acumen, to put us on the right path.

I'm sure we will have a pretty good idea 10 games into the new season.

COYB

I do think he needs to come out and admit some mistakes though, he must know he's made them, and I'd feel so much better if he said something like: "I can see now our pre-season wasn't good enough. We'll do it much better next season and we'll make sure the players are really fit. Also, the Southampton game showed that you can play badly but if you defend well and make use of set pieces you'll pick up wins anyway, so we're going to make sure we work on that too."

That would be all it would take for me to back him, as I don't think he's nearly as bad as some people are making out at the moment, he's just not nearly as good as he seemed last season either (or as he seems to think he is).

Kenwright took a gamble and kept Roberto in his position and fortunately we look all but safe in the top flight for this season, it will be another huge gamble to keep him in his job for the start of next season, I understand that some if not the majority of fans are willing to go along with Kenwright in doing so - I admire their faith but I can't see what Roberto has bought to the club that has improved a) the style of play and football on offer b) results compared to the last few years.

If Roberto does succeed at Goodison he will be a very lucky man to have had an owner who stuck by him, if he doesn't succeed then the owner will have a lot more than egg on his face if it all goes horribly wrong.

Maybe pegleg can entice you back to your old job!

Here goes...

"My opponent is working with porn stars, Chilean miners and Mexicans. I refuse to support an America where terrorists and Monsanto cronies can corrupt our iPhones. When I'm elected, I'll make sure board members and flight attendants can't destroy our right to use up the world's resources."

I reckon it makes about as much sense as he does.

When Roberto starts referring to himself in the third person the megalomania will be complete. SHUT YER GOB, MAN!

For three years every fan was baying for his blood and they really did flirt with the relegation zone - and then what happened? I can't help feeling there is just (only just) a possibility that we might be jumping the gun screaming for his resignation. The question has to be if he has learnt anything this season and can he act sensibly on it? Double or quit time has arrived - are we up for the bet?

Fact is that we are approaching the halfway point of the initial 4-year contract he signed when given the job, influenced by the promises he made about Champions League qualification. I assume that everyone will need to be flexible on 'when' and 'if' he meets that promise.

Contrast that with Martinez he is too nice with the players, doesn't really seem to be able to control them, they seem to control him. Certain senior players anyway. I think Ferguson was the wrong manager to compare him with, although I agree with you it took Fergie three years to find his mark with Manchester United.

With no peep of a response from our chairman, he's left high and dry. Perhaps deservedly so but what a cowardly way to treat a manager. BK did exactly the same to Moyes who was better equipped mentally to deal with it.

Martinez added a striker the last two seasons and two mids so any mediocrity would be his additions and his style of play. Please stop giving him credit for doing his "best with the squad" this year when the same players with a couple of changes did much better the last two seasons.

To talk about the value of scoring from open play when we're lucky if we get 3 shots on goal in most games. Then also, as part of the same philosophy, to denigrate the value of set pieces and in particular corners in the light of the limited scoring opportunities we create is laughable.

And finally to constantly extol the virtues of possession as a means of controlling a game when passing only ever takes place at a tempo which is so slow that we never open defences with the speed of our attacks.

Supporters ask whether he has leaned anything from this pretty disasterous season that might herald a fresh approach next season. The answer has to be that to demonstrate he has he would need to completely re-think his philosophy and shift to a much faster and more direct way of playing more suited to the players we have. Only returning to his sacred beliefs once we have signed about four of the most expensive players in Europe!

This debate is circular because we all know that he's not going to change that fundamentally and any short term direct play will be followed by a reversion to type once we had managed to achieve a few succesful results because we've already seen that happen.

Dave @42, he also had a European trophy.

Yes, this has been a frustrating and disappointing season but the idea that Martinez is deluded, megalomaniacal, the worst manager in the league, and so on, is so much nonsense. I am looking forward to all of you eating these despicable posts next season. Some of you won't be happy until we are punting the ball upfield from the penalty area with a Hail Mary and a Sign of the Cross hoping it falls to a forward.

By the way, we won on Saturday. His tactics worked. Howard who many of you think is finished made two great saves. Barry, who has been subjected to a hate campaign, played well.

There were a number of other positives for those who aren't always looking for a reason to bitch and moan. Sometimes it's like being in the Boys Pen.

My guess is there won't be many of us eating our posts come the end of next season but, if you turn out to be right, I'm sure you'll remind us all of your words.

I'll be delighted if you are in a position to do so but I can't see it myself!

To be honest, the only fans who never moan are those who have absolutely no expectations... and, more often than not, they get exactly what they expect!

I think the man has proved that he is clueless this season and he didn't get his tactics right. It was the same old backwards crap with a few long balls thrown in just to show us that we 'can mix it up'.

The way he has ruined Baines and Coleman. They don't even look like mere shadows of last season. And if lucky wins against QPR and Southampton, where we were largely outplayed in both, is the sign of him getting his tactics right, then clearly the last 7 months proves that he got his tactics horribly wrong.

Kiev summed up his ineptitude. All we needed was a draw. We got the equaliser, all he needed to do was settle and get to half time, not go gung ho and completely capitulate.

I admire your optimism Peter, I really do... but he has made too many mistakes this season: Barkley continuously on the wings; deciding that the way to get back into the game at St Mary's was by making no subs at all; dropping Robles after three clean sheets in a row for Howard who has only kept two in God knows how many since going straight back in; continually selecting Barry who has been a liability for the majority of the season – I could go on.

It's convinced me that this is not merely second-season syndrome, or a blip, I am finding it difficult watching that rubbish every week to be optimistic about next season or to make a case for Martinez deserving a 3rd season. He'll get one but, after this shambles of a season, he definitely doesn't deserve another chance.

It took him 7 months to slightly tweak his tactics. Great. Howard has been inept all season with maybe three good displays, and you can count on one hand how many good games Barry has had, yet they still get selected.

You remain supportive and optimistic, Peter. And I hope you're right but I am far from convinced that this is some kind of temporary hiccup.

We've got a promising manager, so we've won 3 games on the spin: one against a Newcastle side who played with no recognised centre forward; QPR rattled the woodwork a few times and we rode our luck big time in that; and we were second-best at home to Southampton. Well, if you're happy with the way the season's panned out, you must be easily pleased.

There's no way my posts will come back to haunt me because I know what this manager is. He's a fraudster who has this season dished up some of the worst football I've seen in my life – and that's some going considering I've been going regularly since 1970 and have seen some absolute shite.

He's a lucky, lucky man because these three wins have bought him some time. I'm dreading the summer because god only knows what calibre of player we're going to be getting. Heavily linked with likes of Tom Cleverley, I feel like crying... and yet you say he's a promising manager? I and many more on here know he's not getting sacked and that's a worry. I'll leave you with some of his signings: Alcaraz, Besic, Kone, McGeady, etc... yes, some promise there, isn't there?

I think the 'personal attacks' are borne out of the contempt Martinez holds for any fans who question him. Indeed, some of us aren't even 'proper Evertonians' in his eyes.

Like many have said before me, I would have so much more patience with him if he acknowledged the team's failings and put plans in place to address them. What everyone is sick and tired of is his fantasy-land drivel that bears no relation to what we actually see on the pitch.

I think he sometimes forgets that we all watch the games too. If you solely followed Everton on his pre/post-match interviews then you'd be forgiven for thinking we're having a great season. Even defeats are dressed up as moral victories.

God, I don't know whether to detest him or feel sorry for him. Just please get out of our club!

Most people like to think that they have rational beliefs, based on evidence. They don't, they have beliefs, then they fit the evidence to match them. The actual evidence is almost always inconclusive in football, which allows people to be absolutely convinced of something one way or another. Many posters now seem convinced that Martinez is some kind of drivelling imbecile, completely incapable of doing or even saying anything right, and any evidence (such as a 1-0 win over a quality and in-form team, making it three consecutive league wins) will be interpreted to fit this pre-conceived view.

It makes much more sense to think that our manager has many strengths and also some important weaknesses. Last season, the strengths outweighed the weaknesses and everything looked hunky dory. This season, the weaknesses have outweighed the strengths and things look pretty bleak. That means that, given a few things going right (such as acknowledging and improving on weaknesses) then we could quite easily reach a tipping point where things would start to look quite good again.

Were you at the game on Sunday? It was boring, devoid of any quality, and generally negative. How is that any worse than under Moyes?

Martinez needs to earn back support, as the vast majority of good will he earned in his first season has been used up by the debacle of this season. He has been managing long enough now to know that his supposed 'promise' needs to be realised, otherwise it is simply smoke and mirrors to cover up naivety and incompetence.

The most disrespectful thing I have read on this thread is that Roberto is a bullshitter but most posts have been fairly even-handed and presented logical reasons for their opinions about Roberto. If you go up to post number 18 (Paul Tran) he presents some valid questions which many may consider to be fair and reasonable.

I'm not saying that some other posts on other threads have been reasonable or fair and general name-calling isn't going to win any arguments with anybody, so we both agree on that point.

If it was purely about results, ie, three wins on the bounce, then yes, we should be very happy bunnies; but the malaise and general demeanour of the team has been pretty bad for nearly a year and there must be a reason(s) for that.

It may not be all down to the manager but he is the guy that chooses the players, instructs them on what system to play and, as at every club, the buck stops with him for all matters pertaining to what we see on the pitch each week.

Goodison may have been sold-out many times this season, but the fans haven't enjoyed many good 'moments' this season and they pay good money to watch decent football; positive results cannot be demanded but are always welcome. I don't believe that any other club would have allowed Roberto to continue in his job this season; even Villa got rid of Lambert once they realised that relegation was a possibility and they hadn't finished in the top five the previous season. Moyes was got rid of by Man Utd because they failed to meet their particular targets – not because they were languishing in the lower half of the league table for most of the campaign.

I can't see the future so I don't know what will happen, but the likely scenario is that Roberto will be a manager at another club by January 2016; if he isn't, then it would mean that he has managed to pull things around and that would be welcomed by most Blues... but I don't personally believe he will, because the club is far too big for him and his staff.

The fact that he said that the win against QPR where we were outplayed for most of it, against the worst side in the division who we should be beating comfortably, sums up the mentality of the man. He's turning us into Wigan.

I meant Trevor not Peter, haha. Sorry Trevor.

Maybe BK is unhappy with him and will pipe up once were mathematically safe... somehow, I doubt it.

Doctrinaire
Self-satisfied
Marked by favouritism
Incoherent and inconsistent in his tactics
Says one thing, does another
Producing poor football
Wordsmith, in the worst possible sense of the word

And this is a very summary list. Do Evertonians want a manager with even some of the qualities described above? Really?

I have nothing against him personally (I don't know him, of course) but the arguments against him are coherent, empirical and cogent. The ones in favour him staying are generally based on vague personal preferences: "Let's give him another go"; "I like him" etc.

Martinez should be dismissed today. He is not an Everton manager.

Peter, I know quite a few share your opinion but let's get real, mate. No decent Premier League manager would have organized a pre-season the likes of which even Tranmere would laugh at.... oh but there again they did and beat us into the bargain.

The players have never looked so unfit and lethargic and got so many hamstring injuries and our manager is supposed to be a qualified physio.

He has cleared out all the Moyes backroom staff and replaced them with Wigan's with the obvious result .... we play like Wigan.

He has achieved a record in EFC history of the lowest points after 30 games...Our tactically flexible manager has turned one of the most solid defences in the league into a shambles.

He has brought some very poor quality players to GP.

And the worst failing for me he has shown no humility or attempted to learn from his mistakes. I could excuse it if it was just a bad run but this has been for the whole season.

This man is totally out of his depth and it is showing. He needs to be put out of his misery for his own good IMO.

However, Roberto, do me a favour and shut up. He is a deluded control freak, who believes his own hype. He speaks out now after three wins on the trot, because he thinks he has evidence in his favour.

No, sorry, we could easily have lost at QPR, and at home to Saints. We were unceremoniously destroyed in Kiev, as a result of his brainless planning, and I lost faith in him months ago. He treats us like idiots, and he has lived in Britain long enough to be able to be judged on his verbal vomit, after each result. He barely pauses for breath between his baffling contradictory utterances.He is taking the piss.

Also, this isn't some guy volunteering at the local soup kitchen, giving up his time for the benefit of others. He is a very well paid member of a very exclusive bunch people who's job involves explaining what they are (supposed to be) doing to anyone who is interested. I see him get annoyed whenever he is questioned in any depth. It has all the hallmarks of a man so convinced of his own all seeing wisdom, that he doesn't even want to listen to criticism.

"Just look at my work?" I have been Roberto. It is shoddy, you have fucked-up, you have lost the players due to your blinkered attitude and they only pulled their fingers out because they all saw relegation looming and thought that they had better buck up their ideas.

Mirallas will leave; Lukaku will look for a way out too. Our young gems will be courted by the bigger clubs, and we will struggle to attract anyone decent.

In football circles (in the UK at least) the players all talk to each other, at international get-togethers, PFA dos, and social meet-ups. They all know the score on which bosses to avoid. Perhaps this is why Roberto has failed to land many decent signings?

I have said before, I know 100% that the players don't like him, and don't trust him. They know him a lot better than us. They didn't play for him; they have just been grinding out the last few results for themselves... Simple as...

I can't stand Mourinho but the way he alters formations mid-game is something else. I wish one day we will have someone as pragmatic.

We even hear of players having second season syndrome, eg, Barkley, because people have wised up to you and know who you are. Surely the real barometer for Martinez is the 3rd season?

He's nailed on to be our manager next season. But he should be judged on how well the pre-season is planned and how we play in the first 3/4 games.

Although, personally, I think if he couldn't see what was wrong by November, he shouldn't have been allowed to play the grouch who stole Xmas in Bullshit Bill's pantomime.

Oh...and... hey, Roberto... If you're in a hole, stop digging.

I well remember being glued to Sky Sports News on the morning our new manager was to be presented to the world. Time and again we were told to wait a bit longer. Even the normally calm presenters were showing signs of frustration.

We then heard that an important Everton executive had either been sacked or walked out.

Eventually the big moment arrived. Bill was in a stinking mood. Looked ready to flatten someone. This was not helped when it was discovered that the seating arrangements were incorrect and they had to shuffle themselves about till Martinez was placed like a little boy to Bill's left. What a shambles. BK now looked ready to tip the table over but managed to hold himself together with great theatrical professionalism. Still fuming inside, he delivered his speech.... or more correctly; He thrust Martinez on to a spit and roasted him.

The long awaited presentation suddenly turned into a grand tribute to Bill's best mate, our former manager. He went on and on and on. Moyes was made to sound like a cross between Mourinho and St John the Baptist... In other words, if Martinez harboured ideas that he could do better, he would do well to forget them.

This unsavoury spit-roasting was ended by a vicious jab from a stiletto with "Champions League" engraved on the gold encrusted handle. The cruel smirk on the fat face of the perpetrator was there for all to see.

BK was forced to hire our new boss. I'd put money on it...

On the other hand if you are proved correct, it would be an even more important story than the actual hiring of Roberto and would beg the question about who is really in charge at Goodison Park, Bill or A N Other.

I don't recall his demeanour at Roberto's unveiling but I do know that Bill was going all misty eyed at the mention of Martinez's name, and leaving a silvery snail trail on the inside of his slacks, when interviewed by Sky the day we played Arsenal last season. It was the most embarrassing public display of unrequited man love I've ever seen. It was like the Smithers/Burns relationship reversed.

This manager hasn’t got a clue... I’ve had enough of the drivel this man says – he must think we’re thick.

I know for a fact that match analysis of Roberto's time at Wigan and Swansea shows an incredibly dynamic tactician – despite the appearance of similar lineups/formations at the start of matches. My guess is that, if you were to update those same analyses to incorporate his time at Everton, you'd see the same thing.

My bet is that Roberto is possibly/probably being a bit defensive because fans and pundits (including those on this site) are focusing solely on immediately visible measures of tactics such as "starting formation". While this is fine and all, it ignores an entire sea of tactics that involve where and how players play within that formation and defensive schemes.

That's not to say that I am a Martinez apologist or even that I don't wish he'd just shut up. But I do think that hearing Martinez claim to make changes and then pointing at "4-3-2-1" each match isn't as strong of a rebuttal as the comments here are making it out to be.

Maybe he was right, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors, though, so we just have "insiders" telling us all the stuff about the mural and the press conference. I think you're onto something.

Any manager that (in the Dynamo Kiev game) thought that it was a good idea to play Alcaraz in defence, and overlook Stones, Distin, and even Browning, was most certainty not being flexible. He was just being plain fooking Stupid, with a capital S. And just how flexible is it to cram the midfield with DMFs? And people wonder why we don't create too many chances.

And why drop a GK that had just kept three clean sheets. Also why drop young Garbutt, who was playing well. If Martinez was truly flexible, would he not try to accommodate both Garbutt and Baines in the same team. Instead of persisting with (as mentioned numerous times), playing three number 10s. Three players crammed into an unworkable system.

As stated numerous times, Martinez would be better off not saying anything. Or at least be honest. I think that most supporters would appreciate a little honesty. Ipswich Town were beat today, and their manager was interviewed. He said that his team deserved to be beat, and that they were simply not good enough. And that they would be working hard to put things fight.

That is honesty, that is straightforward, that's all I need to also hear from our resident genius. Not the balderdash that he comes out with after every game. FFS he even attributed the win over Southampton to the experience the team had gained in Europe. Jeez-U-S-Christ. That win was more out of the Joe Royle dogs of war handbook, than any European manual. (His European comments were made on another thread.)

These comments today are unbelievable. Does Martinez take supporters to be fools. Cause you could write a book on why this season has been crap, and not once would you mention how flexible Martinez has been. In fact, when he does tinker, Everton usually get beat. Remember the home defeat to Palace last season. There are other matches (and defeats) as well.

So Wigan now have no manager. Do you think that they might consider taking Martinez back? After all, he did win them an FA cup. He's airbrushed the relegation battles and eventual relegation into outer space. Never to be talked about. Some Everton supporters have also overlooked that fact. And are willing to give him more time. More time to do what exactly?

Football is a result-based sport... a result-based business. I don't trust Martinez to deliver. I just do not trust him to do anything at Everton. And he is most certainly not a flexible manager. We will be back playing tippy-tappy nonsense at the first opportunity. Let him go back to Wigan. The tippy tappy stuff should work in League One next season. At least until teams catch on to it.

Rant over. Last comment, great comments from Paul Tran. Would love to hear Martinez answer your questions. Although I doubt that any of us would understand his answers. Me thinks that Martinez will make a great politician should he finish with football. They talk bollocks as well. COYBs.

The evidence is there for all the jury to see, however you believe what you want, you see what you want, I believe that Martinez is not a good manager for Everton. I will gladly eat any amount of humble pie if your right.

Then I might hit him a punch. Check if he really is flexible. Only joking, no violence will be shown, I'm an Evertonian.

All I can add to the previous comments is that I used to love watching "Happy Days". The Fonze was my childhood hero. Then he "Jumped The Shark".

Has Martinez just Jumped The Shark?

Perhaps, after a few good results, his opinion of Martinez began to alter. I just don't know. One never knows the truth when Show Business Bill opens his mouth and I still believe he never wanted Martinez in the first place.

I think Bill had a few sherries with his pal Dave and was sold on the idea of Martinez on the day they knocked us out of the cup when it was fairly common knowledge Moyes was going.

Bill is too lazy to seek out and interview top managers when he is presented with a fait accompli such as Martinez.

I think the deal was done then when the thought was that Wigan would do their normal escape act and Whelan would get his compensation and a new manager on the cheap..

The football RM played last season worked because we had "quick" and fit players, eg, Gerard Deulofeu and Osman was fit... not to mention that most clubs didn't adapt to our style of play too well.

This season, due to poor pre-season prep, complacency within the coaching or playing ranks at failure to get required players in... we were caught out. Let's face it, RM like DM, Barkley and Lukaku are having second season syndrome. Give them the benefit of another year.

My hope is that we have the resources to buy 1 goalkeeper (Nyland), 1 central defender (Alderweireld / Dragovic), 1-2 midfielders (Cleverly / Capoue / Chantome), 1-2 wingers (Konoplyanka / Ayew / Lennon / Deulofeu) and 1 striker (Austin / Rhodes) and promote from the U-21s: Garbutt, Browning, Ledson... but we need to dump Alcaraz, Distin, Hibbert (sorry), Kone, Pienaar, McGeady to free up the wages... and bring down the average age of the team while upping the squad pace.

I expect RM would be busy in the summer working on his targets... as I suppose he has realized that we can play with 1 holding midfielder as well. Just my thoughts!

I mention the above solely to point out that, contrary to Roberto's way of thinking, we are not all mindless idiots, prepared to sit and watch the drivel his selection churns out every week, or to soak up his inane attempts at self-justification. Whatever sport you are involved in, fitness has to be a #1 priority before looking at the rest of the equation, and it is clear to anyone watching us this season that our players have been lacking in that department when compared with the opposition in every game.

Selection then has to be based on the players in-form who must be played in the position where they can do the best job for the team (ie, in their correct positions), and then the team's tactics have to be set up to play to their strengths, as he should have built a team to play in a way to provide service to our record signing.

A good coach would then be flexible (are you reading this, Roberto?), and if necessary makes drastic changes to personnel or tactics in a games if things are not working according to plan, and be prepared to be flexibly ruthless if some new upstart (Robles), comes along and out-performs one of your favourite old stalwarts. In other words, the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few (thanks, Mr Spock, so true).

If Eddie's predictions come true and we lose the core of our squad due to the manager's ineptitude, it may be years before we are able to rebuild a squad capable of challenging for European places again. Such is the pessimistic possibility after the damage done by this season's tinkering and poor judgement shown by Roberto, who is so out of his depth at a club like Everton. Please, BK, let him go before he does so much damage that we end up spending years in the footballing wilderness, bereft of hope and ambition, lurching from one relegation scrap to another until we eventually lose our Premier League status and the real decline sets in.

I'd love to be wrong, but at my stage in life, having seen all the good and the bad over half a century of watching Everton, I see little hope of improvement under the current manager. I keep thinking back to being 13, at Wembley with my Dad, and enjoying the greatest day of my life as we came from two goals down to beat Sheffield Wednesday 3-2 in the Cup Final. I'd like to think today's young lads might get the chance to feel that pride and excitement one day soon, but see little chance of that happening with the current manager in charge.

OK, rant over, back to growing old ungracefully!

Hopefully the words of Paul Anka will soon ring out: "And now, the end is near..."

I've just seen a bit of it, but they only show the aftermath and not the to-ing and fro-ing before that Harold mentions.

My take on the body language I did see is: Bill's lips are moving so he must be lying.

Martinez had "first season blip" benefitting from someone else's hard work and foundation. This season is entirely consistent with his wider career track record. In particular, check out comments from Wigan fanzines and you will see, historically, exactly the same complaints including disrespect for the crap he talks to the media.

It is wrong to dismiss Wigan as solely a rugby town with only rugby fans. Like all clubs, they have knowledgeable committed football fans – they just have less than a traditional club like Everton.

It is a disgrace that this incompetent chancer is allowed to continue to manage our club and to treat our fanbase with such disrespect.

Is it Cleverly next in? Disgraceful if true – he's third-rate dross.

Paul Tran great post: questions that need to be asked, even if we are all fed up listening to the manager's bollocks. Eddie (#66), also made the same observations, and if it's true the players don't like him, then serious questions need answering.

Harold, I can't remember it all but he deffo got spit-roasted off Kenwright that day. People even now go on about Martinez saying he would get us Champions League football but, as Derek has just said, it was Bill's lips that were moving that day.

I'm slightly torn over this manager to be honest. I remember last season, the bad as well as the good. It was a pleasure going to Goodison, and I looked forward to every game. I remember having just finished my dinner at Swansea, being made up I was going to watch my team play.

This season the man hasn't got one thing right. I question his ego for the mural, I question his tactics, and the way he has used his players from the very first game. I question him for being the reason why no momentum has ever been built up, and why when Everton score three goals, they always stop playing?

If last season was enjoyable then this season has been depressing, and not just because of results. He played Liverpool at home, the way he should have played Kiev away.

Goodison is now known as the library, even though attendances have never been higher. Inflexible or not, we just cannot go on, watching such a boring style of football. It's just not Everton's way of playing, and never could be.

His track record as a manager is up there with the likes of Megson, McCarthy and Warnock.

One FA Cup win does not make for a great manager, look at the likes of Sillett and McMenemy who both won an FA Cup but where nothing but average managers to say the least.

I for one am dreading next season...

The silence of the chairman, who is our greatest fan let's not forget (money where his mouth is, although lots say not enough) is noticeable. Of course he will have been disappointed like the rest of us.

All season, a common complaint I've heard from Toffees is why Martinez continued to select less talented players? In the PL, one or two wrong choices loses you games. You are playing with ten or nine players. So we are back to the 'inflexible' charge I guess.

Says much about BK priorities. Nice working environment, easy to get on with Manager, endless opportunities to talk football.

Maybe next time he should seek out a manager with proven record of success first and likeable personality second. In other words put the club's needs before what's required to enable him to indulge his hobby!

If rumours are to be believed that senior players are looking for the exit and Martinez had lost the dressing room, then I could certainly see a change at the end of the season. If the players are not backing the manager, BK may well pull the trigger.

There are a lot of ex-players in and around the club and you can be sure that Martinez will have been well and truly found out if he is the fraud some believe him to be. BK will no doubt take these opinions on board and act accordingly. If the Likes of Sharp, Royle and Ferguson are whispering in his ear telling him Martinez is useless, then he's a dead man walking.

Maybe that's why we haven't heard a peep from BK all season backing the manager???

You may well be right. I would just like to know whether there is any truth in the rumours that he's lost the senior players and maybe the whole dressing room.

After all, they are really only rumours. It's difficult to believe with all the TW followers someone hasn't got an inside story to tell. I've not yet seen hard evidence.

MIA some suggest, but surely someone at the Club knows the drill? Were the coaching staff too gutless / clueless to act, or our pros too lazy to get off their collective backsides??

Blame where it's due, but basic fitness? Hardly the School of Rocket Science!

That doesn't mean that they all hate him, I'm sure he is liked by his favourites, but the source I have is a name you all know, and he has no axe to grind, as he left the club before this regime came in, but he still sees many of the players.

We only see snippets of the manager, and it took a season before we started to question his sincerity. Imagine what he's like as a boss!

At that point I realised that I was starting to feel depressed – I figured that I had enough of that particular feeling this season so I stopped watching it.

I then asked myself if I have felt happy about anything concerning our club this season and came up with some good stuff. Here is my list:

Everton in the community
The fans - particularly the away support.
John Stones
Phil Jagielka – his fight back as a player and captain.

On the subject of inflexibility I only have two words to say – Silvain Distin. Here is one of my all time favourite Everton photos:

Link

I am totally cheesed off about how this player has been treated this season. He has been a terrific player for us and this is probably his last season in the top flight. This is not how his Everton career should have ended – he deserves better.

On the subject of the photo – will we ever find out what really happened?

I'm not sure Martinez is a believer in the 'running up sandhills' school of training. I know he's a believer in a greater use of training with the ball. I'd believe in that if there was evidence on the pitch that it produced results.

Regardless of whether we train with the ball or not, surely in the Premier League no team can do well without a high level of basic fitness. So – whilst not wanting to be seen as blaming Martinez for everything – my guess is our apparent reduced level of fitness this season is largely down to him. The Manager must surely set the requirement for it. Other coaches carry it out!

You are arguing that everything positive is in spite of Martinez and everything negative is because of him. You might as well argue it the other way round for how conclusive the evidence is...

You then do the classic football fans thing of assuming the absolute worst of everything because things are going badly. We were all guilty of the opposite last year, thinking we had quality youngsters knocking on the door, and that top class young players from Spain would flock here for the opportunity to play under Roberto in the Premier League, and being in Europe would make us a magnet for ambitious players from other clubs. It wasn't true in the positive way and it isn't true in the negative way.

I'll quote the great philosopher Terry Venables again (this is becoming something of a catchphrase for me): "Things are never as good as they seem when you're winning and never as bad as they seem when you're losing."

It may not make for great angry debates on the internet, but we will definitely enjoy life a bit more, and enjoy supporting Everton, if we can manage a little bit of a balanced perspective on things.

Who knows, he may not admit it in public yet, but maybe Martinez knows he has got things wrong this season and is making plans to improve for next year.

I have personally heard that Eto'o was a nightmare from Day One, and he could have destabilised one or two people, but Distin seems a strange one to me as well Laurie. Why didn't he just get rid in January, if he thinks Alcaraz and Barry make better centre-backs?

It could be a very long summer, because if he stays he needs backing. Which isn't always easy when a lot of people don't really want to back him. When people who have watched Everton for 50 and 60 years say this manager will take us down, I start to worry, because these fans have generally seen everything.

We're all over the place with a midfield like a sieve in every game. He's an idiot. Football is a simple game complicated by so-called 'innovative' managers with delusions of grandeur like this clown.

There's nothing much that hasn't already been said on this thread so I'll have to leave it at that. He's an irritating, feckless fool.

None of us know what has happened behind the scenes this season but it's clear from what's been happening on the pitch that things ain't been right. The signing of Eto'o and then the release of Eto'o – not a word said.

The first three games of the season, we played okay for 80 mins against Leicester and Arsenal, were slightly exposed by Chelsea but that was a game and a half. Then we won away at West Brom 2-0 and our European adventure took off. I remember us playing well and being robbed by refs, losing through individual errors, Howard being the most costly.

Then he tried to change things, to make us more defensive minded and not so open. We still conceded goals (thanks largely to the individual mistakes) but looked like we wouldn't be scoring many. And then the confidence took a left as we went right and Christmas was diabolical.

Now we've won three on the bounce, Premier League safety is almost assured and players are returning to fitness and even Howard made a couple of decent saves to help us beat Southampton.

I'm not totally sure of Martinez's tactics and preparation for each game, Garbutt speaking after the shambles of Newcastle away gave an un-nerving insight into his pre-match ideology. Baines showing a 'healthy' respect for his manager and staff whilst live on ITV. Little gems from his backroom staff, 'we don't bother with corners' etc.

And yet, as we witnessed last season, with a pretty near full squad playing with confidence we can produce some brilliant football. He secured our highest points total in the Premier League era, we went and played against Arsenal, Man Utd et al and got results. As my old fella says... he showed us the promised land.

I hope Martinez gets next season to bring us back to the top half of the table, I'm not expecting any top four glory – just a continuation of what we saw last season. I like the fact our players look better on the ball than they did under Moyes, although the Howard - Jagielka - Distin triangle did little for our nerves, thankfully we won't have to endure that again.

The big question: Is he the man to turn us around? — I hope so... but then I was happy with his appointment, I liked his overtones about changing the mentality of the players, to play without fear and to enjoy the beautiful game. Importantly, I like his vision for the club and his promotion of youth from the Academy.

I do agree with many on here regarding his bullshit, it is tiresome and if you keep listening it becomes a tad insulting after a while but he's not going to change that. If he sorts out the footy then he can spout what he likes.

Confidence is key and last season showed that if things are going well then the Spaniards soundbites do sound a lot more palatable and his style of football is not quite so turgid on the eye. He needs to have a great summer in the transfer market (another area in which I doubt his expertise) but we do also have some exciting young players on the fringe and the likes of Stones, Barkley, Lukaku, McCarthy will form the core of our team with another year's experience to gain from.

Football is a fickle game and fortunes can change very quickly and for seemingly little reason. What will not help is if the current apprehension carries over, so I hope that we can manage to get excited about a fresh start next year, hard as I'm finding it at the moment.

On a tangent, its strange for me that my best mate is currently filling the huge advert sidebar on the right of TW. Namedropping I know but very proud of him and watch the show if you have Netflix...

Think Mike [106] expresses my general concern better than me. By way of a parallel: The current Australian PM, Tony Abbott, is the sole & only cause of each & all of the nation's woes – past, present & future. Fact! He's demonised 24-7 by most media sources. Balanced debate is largely ditched in favour of popular, vocal opinion.

In due course, both Abbott & RM will be replaced. Maybe deservedly, but convenient scapegoats for other culprits too.

Moyes out, Martinez out, Next out? – might help now, but smoke & mirrors nonetheless!

Although Eddie does say that the contact has no axe to grind, I wonder if the contact has a brother who appears regularly on TV?

Martinez loves the gullible, but he now realize that the knowledgeable older fans have him well and truly sussed. Wake up and read their posts and focus on facts, not dreams.

Arrival Part One

Parody RM Interview

Had to be one of the most flexible.

Innovatively phenomenal.

I tend to post mainly on the subject of RM because I really think he will damage our club and it scares me. We don’t know what the future holds but, if you follow his previous work as some kind of indicator, then we really do not have much to look forward to.

He said that Martinez is still learning the strengths and weaknesses in the squad, that the Europa League took it out of squad... but, without doubt, Martinez will be the Everton manager at the start of the season.

He also said that, behind closed doors, Martinez has had many "discussions" with players admitting that he got certain things on the pitch wrong and there will be a major clear out in the summer and that the player could find himself in front of the manager.

I'm sorry, and with respect I just take with a pinch of salt what you say. There will always be people who have an axe to grind. Only last week, another friend of a friend was speaking with a guy in Scotland who is close to Alan Stubbs and he wasn't very complementary about Martinez, Kenwright, and basically everyone at the club!

One man tells you one thing and another man will tell you another... who are we to believe!

'There or there abouts' with a top-half Premier League finish and a decent run in the Europa League. What more would our 'survival is sufficient' club chief demand of him?

Under Moyes, we always felt BK was an easy man to work for and I'm sure Roberto had him sussed from the day he got the job.

Like it or like it not, I suspect that we are in for a long spell with the Catalan in charge – so get used to it. Personally, I shall not be rushing to take in every home game next season, so have downgraded my season tickets accordingly... I suspect I shall not be alone!

I would happily lose Alcaraz, Distin, Pienaar, Howard, Hibbert and maybe McGeady off the wage bill to make way for some younger, hungrier players.

Barry is staying; Jagielka, Baines, Osman and Nasmith still have plenty to offer, so there are the senior pros.

I guess a lot will depend on bids coming in but I hope, with money available, Martinez has targets already so they have time to bed in...

If possible, I would like to see McGeady, Barry and Gibson move on, but that depends on what offers are on the table.

Mirallas will stay and see his contract out unless that Champions League club comes in for him. (I can not see him signing for the likes of West Ham!)

I would love to see Howard going too... but I reckon we will have this clown for another season.

If I was Martinez, I would be sending Lennon back to Spurs, but I am not Martinez!

We need to sign a striker, a midfielder, maybe two, who can spot a pass and play one – forward, a strong "take no prisoners" centre-half... and that's only for starters.

If a massive bid comes in for Ross, in my opinion, we should accept it.

If the answer is Yes, then the course is clear.

Individual mistakes and Europe have cost us dearly, but Martinez is equally culpable for poor tactics and team selection. I'm not particularly arsed what he says to the media, but it seems most want to judge his managerial ability by his Echo interviews.

He is undoubtedly stubborn and like many managers thinks he has some deeper insights in football tactics that the mere mortal fans cannot see. But, he gave us our best ever Premier League total haul last season and has earned the right to put things right over the summer. If he cannot show progress by November, he will be sacked.

Last season I remember him on Pointless with Jenny and boasting on Sky Sports about how wonderful Martinez is and how he would do everything to keep Lukaku, how great it was to be in Europe again etc.

This season, silence. I think it tells me that he is not happy with Martinez. Maybe he'll wait until the end of the season to say something.

You say he has "earned the right to put things right over the summer". No surprise clearly that I take a different view.

But there are a couple of things implied by that statement which scare me a lot if that is the mind set of execs in our club.

Firstly, you consider only one possibility, that of putting it right. What if he can't put it right? What if, in fact, he dismantles a squad of players put together over years at a stroke? You might say sack him in November but sorry, too late, damage done. No individual has the right to destroy an institution like Everton.

Mainly though, he has earned nothing, nada, zilch, not a thing. We owe him not a jot, he has been paid handsomely for his efforts.

The decision to sack or keep him, or any business decision, should be based solely on available facts , not on "one good, one bad, let's see how the next one turns out" and for my view I just need to watch the increasing shambles he has turned out which does actually date back to last season when he was found out.

Emotions as you espouse have no place in this decision but my worry is that you may possibly have accurately described the thought process of BK.

Amother transfer window for this clown may doom us for years.

Yes Don Quixote, sorry Roberto, you are the managerial equivalent of a contortionist. In your hands we will win the league next year, CL as well the year after and a treble in 2018.

Huzzah for Don, sorry, Roberto.

Kenwright and Martinez ain't listening!

Otherwise they might as well just appoint a hockey coach like Brian (#87) who simply talks common sense. Brian, as a fellow member of the 50+ years club, are you looking for an agent?

There is no rocket science required in coaching a willing set of players and fitting them into the team in the correct positions. Only an idiot plays experienced players out of position and then expects them to do a good job. Peter, I'll be sure to call you if I'm in need of an agent... hehe. And thankyou.

As you say Peter, Kendall, Clough, Paisley et al may seem old-fashioned in this modern day era of statistics etc but pick your best eleven players who will give a 100% out on the pitch and you won't go far wrong. Start choosing personality over ability and inevitably problems will arise and cause uncertainty all over the pitch.

I am only sharing this knowledge because I like everyone else on here am worried for our club, and I am interested in any information that can make me have a better understanding on just why things have gone so wrong.

Mike Allison, the point I was making is that 3 wins , lucky or not does not change the way we have performed over the rest of the season, and the last quarter of last season.

We have been shite away at Southampton, at Newcastle, at Hull, at Man Utd (despite the late rally). We will see over time and hopefully hear a bit more about what has been going on.

I am sure Roberto has done enough to keep his job, so we will see what he does about the situation. I hope we are not wasting our time wondering about these same issues next Easter.

There are some fans that think Martinez deserves another season because of last season. Well surely that's a reason not to. The fact that he has turned us into a boring, turgid disorganised shambles in a year proves that he doesn't deserve another year in charge.

Take Michael Laudrup: Won the League Cup, the following season, sacked. Just because Martinez did well last season it doesn't automatically mean that he deserves another go if results and performances in season 2 are poor.

Or a new 5-year contract. Which means it's impossible to sack him. Like Pardew at Newcastle getting a 7-year contract after getting 5th. Sound familiar? Hmm.

I decided to stop listening to him when he tried to tell us Jelavic was in a good moment of form... The guy had spent the previous 3 months looking like he'd never played the game.

It's not as if he is even a good con man, there was no slight of hand involved when he fucked off for a couple of months and lined his pockets working for his future employers whilst still drawing his wages from us.

How he must have chuckled to himself when his supporters lapped up his promise to sign 6-7 players on his return..

He must have pissed himself when they bought his promises to give youth a chance. A large part of Evertonia has been uncharacteristically gullible. Maybe after the miserable GT, they were desperate to believe anything remotely positive. They adored "BBS" and his pie-in-the-sky bollocks, but their support has been betrayed, their defence laid bare, all of their arguments systematically dismantled. Not by his detractors but by RM himself.

It's now a great source of amusement to fans of other clubs that so many of us believed Robbie's promise to reopen the School of Science.

Our football has been camel ugly and three straight wins won't change that fact. Let's put an end to this embarrassment. Now.

What I'm saying is that this doesn't mean nothing good can happen from here on in. There are many posters now on ToffeeWeb who are faced with the prospect of either admitting they've been woefully wrong and have over-reacted in a rather childish and unpleasant fashion, or of continuing to criticise the manager and pick faults with him even when he does quite well. The first of those options is unlikely to happen and the second will make discussions on ToffeeWeb decidedly less enjoyable than they should be. Posts like Darren Hind's above make me genuinely worried for some people's mental state and the lives they must live if they're willing to express such thoughts.

We're simply not as bad as some people are making out, and we may do well next season, it's perfectly reasonable to wait and see. Personally I would only really be in favour of doing so if Martinez admitted his mistakes and explained how he was going to do better next year, but he may well have done that already behind closed doors. His current issue is that he's getting the PR wrong, as he's won three straight games and people are still spitting blood. I am extremely heartened by Oliver's post (#121) and hope that Martinez can be big enough and intelligent enough to give the fans some credit and speak publicly.

However, given that most of the league campaign has been littered with strange formations, lack of width and a penchant for error ridden performances it would seem that for the team and perhaps the manager, winning the Europa League was the priority and the Premier League campaign took a back-seat, a gamble which could have ended in disaster if those 3 recent wins hadn't have arrived when they did.

Combine that with the average arrivals that Roberto has brought to Goodison and there is more than enough reason for some Blues to be concerned about the coming season. I for one am resigned to seeing Roberto in the hot-seat next season and I also hope my assessment of his managerial ability is way off the mark, but I am finding it difficult to point out anything that he has done this season which would help me to believe that he is the right manager for Everton at this moment in time.

It hasn't only been the results that have underwhelmed but the football itself hasn't been of a standard that we would have expected from an experienced group of players. Perhaps, there has been some form of mutiny from some players and if Roberto has identified those and rids the club of them in the summer, he might be able to re-invigorate the team and thus Everton FC's fortunes on the pitch - we would all welcome that even those who have had an agenda against Roberto since he signed the dotted line in June 2013.

You seem like a very nice guy. Your concern for my – and other Evertonians' – mental wellbeing is really rather touching. Fair play to you, Fella... but when you hang your hopes on Roberto "Admitting his mistakes" or a I-know-somebody-who-knows-a-first-team-player post, I can't help thinking you are offering me a bump start as your house burns down.

There is no over dramatisation. We really have been that bad... and if you don't recognise that, you simply haven't been paying attention.

Despite being a long-time critic, I have stayed away from booing or calling for Martinez's head. I was worried about the possible destabilising effect. Yeah, we won three on the bounce, but ask any Evertonan: Those victories were greeted more with relief than joy... and they were against teams we would all have expected to beat before a poorly prepared Martinez plunged us into this season of frustration and at times despair.

"There are many posters on TW who are faced with the prospect of either admitting they got it woefully wrong and have over reacted in a rather childish and unpleasant fashion" ... Hello!!

If you had been paying attention, Mike, you'd have noticed this has already happened, not just on TW, but throughout Evertonia. Those adoring hoards who thought we were being led to glory by "Barça's next Manager" are now either completely silent or desperately clinging to the hope that their idol will come good. They're easy to recognise; their posts usually start with "I know this season has been shite ... BUT."

Evertonians have suffered for a long time. For whatever reason, we we boring to watch under Walker, Smith and for the first 9 years under Moyes, but for the past three seasons this group of players have shown themselves to be capable of playing really attractive football. It wouldn't have taken much to keep it going, but Martinez's inflexibility has plunged us to new depths this season. He has somehow managed to turn our long-awaited Swans into pug ugly Ducklings. There should be a price to pay for that and your boy should be paying it.

We're probably all a bit unhinged – why else would we put ourselves through this, but given the choice I think I'd rather be depressed than delusional... I can at least see a reason for feeling depressed.

I know the question was for Darren, but I don't see many green shoots at the minute, well not at Goodison anyway.

I said I'm torn on the manager, and the reason is very simple. Our Captain is saying he expects an overhaul of the squad this summer, and the way Martinez has performed since last July, I'm not sure I fully trust him at the minute.

I haven't given up on Martinez yet but I can't say that I've seen a lot in the last few months to give me cause for optimism.

I appreciate you have supported Martinez regardless but you are sounding like his after-match interviews. You are refusing to see/accept what everyone has witnessed.

We were put in a terrible position by the manager. We have recently had 3 wins to get ourselves out of trouble but the football we witnessed was a disgrace – one shot on target at home against Southampton – what type of philosophy is that?

I see no green shoots at all, just more dross. I am really concerned that this joker will be here to oversee our close season transfer dealings and preseason. Giving him the benefit of the doubt until some unspecified period next season may well catch us out. We were lucky this season, Wigan were for a while but finally succumbed; who is to say this joker may not have a groundhog day with us.

Sorry, Colin, the risk is too great, this guy needs to go.

When have you ever heard a manager who is looking to move a player on say he is shite!

Regards my original post, I only said what I was told face-to-face by this guy who is, as I have said, on very good speaking terms with this first team player, and I have no reason not to believe him.

At no time did I try to defend Martinez's performance this season but, if you asked me, yes I think he deserves 10 games to prove this season was one to forget and lessons will have been learned.

I have no doubt that the chairman will mark Martinez's card, if he has already done so. I respect those whose opinion is he should get the sack... but, after season one, I believe Martinez deserves the 8-10 games to sort it out.

Look across the park and see the problems that are starting to appear over there!

Performances have been poor over the last few games but winning does breed confidence so maybe the performances will get better over the last few weeks of the season. But, if there is to be a big clearout in the summer, I'm not sure what good green shoots appearing in April will do in the long run...

I'd prefer us to get a new man in if someone of a good calibre becomes available. But we all know that won't happen.

In reality, that isn't going to happen, especially the way we have been playing, so he should go in the summer. Of course that isn't going to happen and unfortunately we will be stuck with him for next season.

As for 'green shoots', Colin — where?

To give Martinez any games next season, he needs to merit it by showing his flexibility in terms of selection policy and tactical approach for the remainder of this. Giving youth a chance and at least experimenting with 4-4-2 at home would be a step in the right direction. That will go a long way towards swaying those that are on the fence regarding his future to give him a chance.

The problem is that, if he remains inflexible with both his tactics and selections, we run the considerable risk of writing off next season as well as this one. Using Moyes's tenure as a blueprint, if we started well, we generally qualified for Europe but, when we started poorly we generally fell short. This (so far) has been the same under Martinez.

The first 8-10 games are massively important as they set the tone and expectation for the season ahead for both players and fans. If there is nothing to suggest flexibility and tactical nous in the remainder of this season, betting on Martinez somehow 'turning it around' over the summer is the same as buying magic beans and expecting a money tree to grow – the stuff of fairy tales.

The idea that we will suddenly be awash with cash to throw around in the transfer market is fanciful – we've been sold that dream before. The wage structure can't cope with overhauling the squad with better players en mass, as better players will need to be better paid and demand to win things.

Promoting youth players, and not wasting wages on pointless loans like Atsu and Traore before him, is the way forward. Unfortunately, Martinez does not have form regarding this.

It seems to me neither Martinez or Blue Bill have that mentality. So, as much as most here would cut their loss and sack Martinez, seems like we are all resigned to have more of the same come next season.

ToffeeWeb will be my source of entertainment throughout the summer, as we all debate the incomings and outgoings of an ageing squad. I will not get excited about anyone Martinez brings in, as the man has already proven he is incompetent in the transfer windows.

How did such an inept tactician defy the odds last season, or inspire our Europa League run? (Bar the obvious exception!)

The equally (?) useless Moyes took us to the Champions League, (don't get me started on that 'stitch up'!!), & both got underdogs to the Cup Final.

Infuriating? Very! Stubborn? Yes! Incapable? ....

Doubt that he's stupid enough to risk his reputation / job again next season.

Where's Richard Dodd when the glasses need refilling?

If there are any green shoots, then they must be covered in cow shit. Martinez has consistently stunk the place out.

We have scraped together a few results with barely any shots on goal and no cohesion whatsoever. Our standard of play has been so poor that it couldn't get any worse. The improvement in recent results should not be enough to keep Martinez as manager.

Does anyone really believe that someone who has made so many obvious mistakes over and over again is fit to manage our great club AND take them back into the top 6?!!

Unfortunately, Premier League managers are only as good as their results these days and Martinez has fallen way short of what we expect at Everton FC.

Kenwright has to admit he got it wrong and cut his loses – and let's not forget, Martinez has cost the club by giving out ridiculous contracts to players – 3 years to Barry, 5 years to Naismith, etc.

There are so many examples of how Martinez got it wrong this season, it nearly makes my head spin: the mishandling of Barkley; the dropping of Robles after 3 clean sheets; players constantly playing out of position; the Saints game away; and the embarrassing/humiliating loss at Kiev!

Everton took a gamble with Moyes and it paid off handsomely; however, with Martinez, it just didn't work... and yes, after a promising first season, he has now been ruthlessly found out and is simply out of his depth.

Tactically inept – only an imbecile, would resort to the same, unsuccessful setup, tactics and not observe along the line – that perhaps – we could change things, as a minimum!!!

YOU CAN KID ALL THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT NOT ALL THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME... obviously Premier League Managers

In my opinion, any sane person, considering Alcaraz, for future selection of the Blues isn't just worthy of being described as "stubborn", but perhaps something definitely more apt & accurate!!

COYB

I don't think anybody can argue about the standard of football this season. Fans pay a lot of money to watch these games and at the moment are not getting value for their hard earned money!

ps: See ya in Singapore!

Bill has no time to run the club other than talking the club up when he appears on Sky and watching the games as Chairman.

The only way this mistake will be rectified is by an uproar from the fans and he seems to have survived that hurdle unless we collapse again on the run in.

Bill has no time to run the club other than talking the club up when he appears on Sky and watching the games as Chairman.

The only way this mistake will be rectified is by an uproar from the fans and he seems to have survived that hurdle unless we collapse again on the run in.

And that's usually before half time.

Although he is unlikely to act, I don't think his position is fully secured yet.

I'm not talking about the match or the fans, emotion goes with the territory. That can't be allowed into decisions that affect the business. My point was last season has earned Martinez feck all in the decision around things going forward as I think you well knew!

It's become a depressing experience reading this forum. I think far too many of you have expectations which are not realistic. Just where in the PL do you think we should finish each year with the players we can afford to buy and pay the crazy wages they demand?

We've not won a trophy since Adam was a lad, for god's sake, I don't care who is manager, I don't see that changing anytime soon! All I see each time I log on, is such a player's rubbish, he's rubbish also, the manager's rubbish. I said before the season started that we would finish 10th-ish because of the strain the Europa League would place on the squad. We are 12th at the moment, not great I concede, but it's not earth shatteringly worse than I expected!

What the club needs is not a new manager, its 㿞m+ a year more for better quality players. Until this happens, expect our fortunes to stay the same.

How about 8th minimum? Which is where our wages spend average over the last few years places us (9th this season) and is the lowest we have finished in the last 9 seasons. Then again, if you want to push the boat out a bit, how about 7th, 6th, 5th in the last three seasons with largely the same group of players plus the addition of a 㿈m forward?

Do you actually watch us play and are your expectations so low that the standard of football this team currently plays is acceptably realistic? Is a single shot on target all game enough for you and a realistic expectation for the 8th/9th highest wage paying club? Are footballing lessons from clubs that spend considerably less, such as Hull and Stoke, a realistic expectation then?

Don't get me wrong, I'm still 50/50 at best on whether to keep Martinez... and, as I've said a few times now, all it would take would be for him to publicly acknowledge what he's got wrong and that we'll be working on improving that and I'll be back on board. But he hasn't done that and doesn't seem likely to, so I'm not happy with him overall. I just don't think he's a complete moron who's completely incapable of doing anything right and is currently presiding over the permanent destruction of Everton Football Club.

Right now I could take him or leave him, but I think we all know that he'll be the manager next season, so he'll need to court the supporters and the supporters will need to try to back him. The simplest way is for the team to start getting results, and look, they have. The problem is that that doesn't seem enough for some people.

If you're happy with scrappy, fortunate wins despite being outplayed in the last two games, let's get Sam Allardyce or bring Moyes back.

So, by my own reckoning, Martinez is in trouble. I think there's a good manager somewhere in Martinez – you don't change a team's style and have them finish 5th without having something.

I've met a lot of talented people who think their weaknesses are their strengths. That belief creates their downfall and I think Martinez is one of those people. He really thinks he's flexible, innovative and successful. Genuinely successful people tend to know their strengths and play to them ruthlessly and efficiently – think of Mourinho and Ferguson. They also make mistakes and demonstrate that they've learned from them.

I have no idea what happens behind the scenes. I do know that Martinez has a heck of a job getting his credibility back with us. Last season I thought we had a manager with a method that would work long term. This season he's replaced a good formula with a mess and just like his predecessor, there is no rhyme or reason to selection, performances or results.

He's had one good year and one poor year. Last year he was deserving of praise; this year he's lost it completely and has looked right out of his depth. Like his predecessor here, he has been indulged to the point that he believes he can do no wrong and when he's up against it, he's clueless.

I'd sack him as soon as the season finishes. The real issue for me is the worry that we'll end up with a cheap Mr Shouty Sweary who will guarantee us nothing more than the midtable finish Martinez will give us.

So – before anyone starts dreaming about a fancy foreign coach to take us into the Champions League – forget it.

Get down to Finch Farm and start asking those questions. Give tomorrow a miss if you have to pass Aintree though - its "That" day

I just thought of some questions that the likes of Prentice should be asking. If he's not allowed to ask them, I'd happily do it myself. More constructive than constantly shouting 'he'll take us down '. He won't, by the way. I'll ask them on Skype if Roberto has the time......

Still if we all have a good Aintree, maybe we can buy the club off Bill and put things right.

And what would you say that a manager that takes a 5th-place finishing side and changes their style to have them fighting relegation brings to the table?

Most supporters seem to think he'll deliver a lot less than mid-table mediocrity based on current performance; what makes you think he can attain that high a level consistently?

There is no emotion involved in deciding that, on a balanced assessment of RM's performance over the last two seasons, he will be given the first quarter of the new season to see if he can improve the performance of the team. There wouldn't be a CEO or business president left in a FTSE 100 company if businesses took decisions based on a 6-9 month view of performance.

Perhaps you will be more credible when telling posters not to let emotion sway them if you use less emotive language.

If you could also show me the bit where I said he would attain a high level consistently, I'd be grateful as I don't remember typing it.

I'm all for a debate, but I tend to use my actual points, rather than the ones people make on my behalf.

Winning a fortune at Aintree and buying the club from Kenwright sounds like an excellent plan – I'm deffo in.

In the meantime, we may want to just Goonyellat him.

Now I seem to remember them spending 㾸 million on Bony (and getting 㿈 mill for him). They always have good players, with possession-based football, but with pace, and they seem to do okay.

If a team of such modest means can compete with us in the transfer market, and attract good players from the continent, and can sit above us in the league, then what are we (as a club) doing wrong?

That aside, I disagree completely with your FTSE analogy; it bears no comparison. There would be no appointments in the first instance to a CEO of a FTSE 100 company from an manager who had bankrupted his previous company as his last act. If this highly unlikely scenario actually occurred and then after a while this CEO looked like doing the same to his current, he or she would be out tout de suite and in a lot less than 6-9 months too. Most FTSE CEOs are actually quite competent with strong track records, unlike Sr Martinez.

But, apart from that, it isn't 6-9 months of poor performance is it? It is at least 13 months of poor performance going back to at least March last year. My own view is the poor performances can be traced back to Jan 28 last year. 13-15 months of steadily decreasing performance out of 22 is a very different picture.

For anyone who wants to look further, it is obvious this guy should never have been given the gig in the first place. All he is doing with Everton is no different from what he has done his whole career.