Roberto Martinez

Martinez completely forgot about the game in front of him and effectively replaced a central defender with a forward finding his feet when we were down to ten men.

It is such naievity and amateurism which lets Martinez down.

Gareth, in broad terms you are right, but frankly the quality of the individual players is without question, I think it's clear too that for all Tim Howard's alleged failings this season he has been the defence scapegoat for all their woes.

The truth is the coaching and lack of defensive tactics has cost us the season. The methods of defending changed when Moyes left, remember the stuff ups trying to play a ball out? His attacking ideology has to be married to pragmatic application on this he fails dreadfully, and I fear he knows that to win he needs to sacrifice a style of play something he is either incapable of doing or does not agree to the premise of changing.

That is why his infuriating inability to win a game that should be won. It really isn't rocket science but it has dogged his management career and his inability, so far, to change will be his undoing.

Also if you only started watching in 88 you're not in a position to properly compare Sharp with Lukaku. Sharp was head and shoulders above lukaku both in ability and attitude.

There is no doubt that there are some very good things that Roberto does, and there are some very strange and infuriating things.

Unfortunately, at present, the strange and infuriating things seem to be outnumbering the good things, and these only get magnified when a few results don't go our way.

Win on Saturday, win the Merseyside Derby, win seven out of our last ten, and suddenly the good things may start outweighing the bad ones again. He would probably buy himself one more season to have a crack at getting this talented bunch to the top, but there would still need to be some major changes to training and "philosophy".

Roberto + top top defensive coach + person to stand in for post-match interviews when we have lost...... Could yet prove to be a winning formula, which I actually wouldn't mind sitting through for another season!

Yes we are 12th, we have had some disappointing results at home,
If is a big word I know, but if we won the game in hand we would be up to 9th.
If again we had won 1 more game we would be then in 7th, I mean how far are we off the pace, not effing far that's how far.

Reading these recent threads you would think we were at the bottom of the table.
In the middle of the table there's not much in it, and a couple of wins could see us finishing where I would expect us to at the start of the season.

As I say, the criticism is way over the top for me.

One who the Park End neanderthals want to "just fucking clear it, nobhead".

Well I wouldn’t exactly call Stones a nobhead but, as a Park Ender, I guess that’s me categorised then!

I’m with you on some of it – I love watching us attack (I don’t mind a bit of possession football either) and I think he has assembled a fantastic squad, at least in part because of his outlook and trust in youth/willingness to forgive mistakes.

However the long-term plan has to be balanced by short-term pragmatism; not only because some of these players may not stick around if we continually surrender points in the manner we have this season, but also because long-term plans must always be balanced by short-term pragmatism – on a game by game basis, tactics and substitutions should be geared towards either realising or securing the points. Otherwise we become a perennial hard-luck story.

No matter how good the individuals are, the manager simply has to instil the hard-nosed, none-shall-pass attitude that is appropriate at certain times in certain games. If he can’t do that, if he must always play exactly the same way, he’s not the next Pep, he’s the next Ardilles.

Are you honestly suggesting that Roberto even enters the half decent category as a manager with his home record over the last two seasons? Behave yourself, he’s third rate and could end up this season with the least ever wins as an Everton manager at home. Where does that leave your hero.

Your suggestion that the crowd has something to do with Roberto’s failures at home is insulting, and pretty desperate stuff. I’ve seen nothing but patience from our supporters at GP this season considering the appalling results. If we start losing away from home, next season, we will go the same way as Wigan, because he will never get it right at home.

No point in saying if this or that had happened we would be tenth or eight or where ever in the table. "Ifs" don't get you anywhere, as a mate says, "if my aunt had fishing tackle she’d be my uncle!!!!"

As of right now, the negatives totally outweigh the positives and it seems to be that he is never going to change, even though he says he has the experience and knows what it takes!

I asked a question on another thread , if he won the cup and went unbeaten till the end of the season would we (I mean those of us who want him gone) change our opinion – reconsider if you wish.

It may be his only chance of redemption I believe.

His stock would rise if he stopped spouting rubbish to the press and started to take responsibility instead of blaming everyone and everything other than himself.

Roberto has produced an attacking team who are a joy to watch. Roberto has also produced a team that when defending look insecure and a car crash waiting to happen.

The FA Cup game is going to be massive for his future. Not sure I would trust him if I was investing my millions.

This season was the ’Golden’ opportunity to make in-roads into the top 4 or even have an outside tilt at being champions – but what has happened, we have once again failed miserably, we surrendered a really good situation at Manchester City in both legs, the first leg we should have won by more goals, the second leg we should have shut up shop after Barkley had scored but failed.

Once again our season depends on a one off cup tie against a formidable but not unbeatable top club, and if we fail, that’s it, the rest of the matches will on the whole be meaningless.

Three seasons is usually enough to judge a manager and how his team is progressing, we may be playing more attractive football, we may generally be better at passing, but are we any nearer to having a good and consistent team than we were four years ago? I don’t believe that we are and arguably much of the stuff we were very good at has disappeared in the blink of an eye – it has been replaced, rather than added to.

Martinez is the manager and so he’s the one that takes the plaudits and brick-bats and unfortunately for him there are more reasons for brick-bats than plaudits, winning the cup may help him keep his job, but the bread and butter always has been the league results and it always will be and from that perspective I don’t think he deserves to be given another twelve months.

On a side-note apparently Mourinho has told BT that he will start a new job in July, I would imagine at Old Trafford, but you never know.

Well a person could ask why R.Martinez in his second season 2014-15 was not doing it, as the table does not lie? His teams won 9 games less drew 2 games more and lost 7 more than 2014-15, they also scored 13 goals less and had 11 goals more scored against them.

It is a waste of time comparing one manager against the other as we do not remember who the opposition was when we won or lost. we don’t remember if we or the other team had injuries and we don’t remember what the conditions were that the games were played in.

The only comment that I look at from your article is "The Table Does Not Lie" and then have a look at the table last year and today.

I agree with the away games, but surly it is better to maintain these performances at Goodison in front of 30,000+ supporters, to make the home games as difficult for the away teams that it used to be, and this would prove that Martinez is up for the job.

Roberto - Not short term manager

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/10/Roberto-Martinez-Everton-future-chelsea-fa-cup-quarter-final

I agree with you about Stones being a super player, a footballing centre half with still much to learn defensively. No arguments about Ross, another fine player. Martinez brought neither to our club and the notion that only he would have brought them on is pure conjecture.

I also think Lukaku is good and will be excellent, however it didn't take a genius to spend £28 million. Lukaku did not have unlimited options but they will widen in the summer. Let's see what he makes of Roberto then. The table indeed doesn't lie and it tells us now, in my view, that Roberto Martinez is not the best we can get.

Yes, we've got a set of players – many signed or developed by Martinez – who are often a delight to watch.

Yes, too many results have been exasperating, but it is a team well capable of winning three games that would land us the FA Cup.

It's important that Evertonians on Saturday keep behind the team, especially if John Terry is refereeing.

After West Ham went a goal up last weekend, I thought it was Operation Goodison full-scale rehearsal.

I like the way you put Martinez in a historical context. I'd been thinking along the same lines myself.

For example, I think I am correct in saying that in the last 60 years, we have had 13 different managers (excluding caretakers) and only three have won trophies. A sobering thought.

But we could yet have a re-run of the 1984 FA Cup final, which gave us our first trophy in a long time. That came at the end of Howard Kendall's third season in charge. Yes, let's be positive.

COYB

I agree the team are capable of winning or at least not losing matches in what remains of the FA Cup competition, and like you. I would love to see the Blues follow up a trophy this season with a full-on assault on the upper echelons of the Premier League next season.

However, look at Everton’s league results preceding the FA Cup victory of 1984, very very different to our current run of results and that’s why a cup win may or may not occur but we have a long way to go before challenging the big boys in the league.

1984

At the risk of making a big deal out of just one of many points though...

I take issue with your claiming Romelu Lukaku is "Better than Sharp." Lukaku is going great guns, one of the most potent in the Prem over the last few seasons, and he's upped his overall game this year. However, Sharpy had it all.

If we had Sharp today he'd be more effective as our defence than the present back four. You see, when we were under the cosh we only had to get the ball to Sharp and he'd hold it up long enough for us to recover our composure and take the game to the enemy. If anyone would be a £50 million player in this league, Sharpy would.

I was patient until recently, but for me, only a cup win and a good run-in will save him. A win against the RS will also mollify a lot of the Everton angst.

Surely our current scout, Kevin Reeves, is the one who should be picking up the plaudits on that front.

Douglas, exactly. 6th highest paid bringing us to bottom half. BK is mad to have stuck with him this long. Anything less than a Cup will seal his fate.

I don’t think it is a case of "be careful what you wish for"; I think it is a case of "seize the day". This squad will only get older, and if we don’t get them to their full potential, quickly, they won’t stay together very much longer.

RM has reached his peak, he can’t go any further, that can’t be said for the squad. RM is holding them back. Time for someone else to step in.

I felt sick when big powerful guys like Wanyama, Virgil Van Dijk and Giannelli Imbula went to clubs who were supposed to be smaller than Everton. "Imbula is our own Ya Ya Toure", screamed the Stoke fans after his sensational debut.

Anyway, big men or little men, in the modern game they have to be quick, sharp, skilful, determined, tough and energetic. All of them. Not eight or nine. All of them. Passengers are not welcome, especially in the last 20 minutes when 2-0 up. That is the period when ten outfield warriors band together to gain a victory.

Full concentration, no ball watching and no giving the ball away cheaply. Close down swiftly and block attempts to cross. No backing off like cowards into our penalty area. Fight like men and get into the ref’s face. We are not to be messed with.

Decide before the game who will take the penalties, the corners and the free kicks. With Everton, it’s the first one to grab the ball.

All simple obvious stuff but we don’t do it. That’s right, Mr Martinez, your team does not do those things and I can’t understand why. It’s not even against your philosophy. Other clubs have strengthened and improved over the last eighteen months and we have stood still. We’ve even gone slightly backwards as players become complacent and the scarcity of wins causes them to lose their enthusiasm.

Where we go from here is anyone’s guess. We need a shot in the arm and perhaps Mr Moshiri will administer it. He has not shelled out a fortune to sit quietly in his armchair, cross his fingers and hope things get better.

The frustrating thing is it is obvious that he is close to creating a very good team. If... IF he could get the balance between attack and defence (yes, I know it's the million dollar question), we would be challenging for honours on a regular basis.

In my opinion, he should be given one more season to complete the development of his team. He is 75% there, just needs to temper his desire to win games in a "perfect manner" and improve his game management, and we will get the rewards.

His inability to see that "what we have we hold" is a fine principle when in front with a quarter of an hour to go.

Stones is a joy, but only if his obvious skills are married to the defensive intelligence that knows that there are times when a long clearance is the footballing thing to do.

I prefer Martinez to Moyes as he at least tries to win games, whereas Moyes tried not to lose games. But, to be frank, neither of them would be fit to lace the boots of Carey, Catterick or Kendall (first time round).

How exactly do you think Martinez is ’close’ to forming this very good team?

We are the best part of 3 years into his tenure and he is no closer to solving the defensive side of our game that has blighted his managerial career.

If we are 75% of the way there now, I don’t want to see us go any further!

I wanted Martinez out last season but realised it wasn’t going to happen. After much thought, around November last year, I decided to get fully behind the boss and what he is trying to do. The last month I’ve fallen off the wagon again. I just can’t take it!

If Martinez would rather Everton lose than change his philosophy, then I can’t support him.

After three years, they still don’t seem to have confidence in Roberto’s philosophy because they are going into games feeling handicapped by our inability to not concede goals.

For the first time in years, teams across the league see us as a soft touch now and I think the players know it, hence the complete lack of confidence when we defend.

I read an article yesterday which said we’ve lost 45 points from winning positions in RM’s 104 Premier League games in charge, if true then that’s an incredible (to use RM’S favourite phrase) statistic.

Martinez talks about having a young team which means growing pains but that to me is rubbish. The likes of Barry, Jagielka and Baines are anything but young and McCarthy and Coleman have had plenty of Premier League experience now. I really wish the media who ask him these questions would call him out on some of the things he says sometimes, because this, by and large, is not a young, inexperienced team.

How anyone can say we are 75% there is beyond me. We’re crap at exactly 50% of the game, that being the small matter of defending! Anyone disputing that might want to consider the fact that we’ve conceded more home goals this season than even Aston Villa!

Sure, RM has done some good things along the way. He has brought in some good players and I like the fact that he talks about the fact that Everton should be looking to win trophies and not just get to 40 points like his predecessor did. I like that he appears far more willing to mention our successful past and embrace it than Moyes ever did. I get the feeling he sees making Everton a force in the game as his ultimate aim, whereas towards the end with Moyes, I felt that he saw it as his stepping stone to bigger and better things.

Bottom line though, we need a manager who is not only ambitious and has an eye for a good player. We need the complete package. Someone who can organise a defence and knows how to see out a game, someone who’s in-game management is spot-on, and someone willing to learn from their mistakes.

With fresh investment and the squad of players we have already in place, Everton will be an attractive job for someone in the summer. If we start next season with Martinez still in charge then we will have missed a big opportunity to get better.

If we had lost another one or two games, we would be another one or two places down the league... so, if we play the 'if' game, you can make it what you want.

We are 12th; we have only won 4 home games, we have thrown away leads in the last part of games, we are performing to the form of Wigan, and if (that word again) we give him another season, the form of RM suggests we will be in the Championship the following season – no doubt with RM reluctantly saying he is not the man to bring us back up... only the man to take us down.

"Have we got experience within squad? Clearly not, we have young talent that needs trauma and pain but I am excited about the future."

Over the last 3 seasons, we’ve played some great football. I think the first half of the second season, long-term injuries to a lot of players, really disrupted our game (no excuse, just my thoughts).

This season, I thought at the beginning of it, that we would progress if we got to 6th; any higher, then I thought we’d be doing exceptionally well.

As this season has gone on, the main, overriding, feeling I’ve had, is frustration. More than despair (Villa fans are despairing), I’m frustrated at the manner we have literally thrown so many points away this season.

Points that have needlessly been thrown away, not the ones caused by poor refereeing decisions, or where we’ve been well and truly battered (not very often) but he ones we have laid down and invited the opposition to pick up for nothing. The ones that, from a winning position, we have turned into into draws, or worse, losses in a matter of minutes.

We have four international defenders and I wonder how they make such stupid mistakes: Stones pissing about in our own box, leading to Tim Howard giving a penalty away; Jagielka getting tackled by Tim Howard at Chelsea and making us look total numpties, and giving Chelsea a lifeline back.

There’s plenty more examples as well. That two-foot high Liverpool player scoring a header while standing alone in the six-yard box. Poor, poor, piss-poor goals that we’ve given away.

So, in my view, it by no means is all due to Martinez’s tactics but there’s a big total of points that are solely due to the weaknesses in the team not being attended to by the manager; and that is mainly with his use of subs and his inability or choice not to shut up shop when we have the game won.

Last Saturday for me, was the day I thought that Roberto showed his weaker side absolutely clearly and all in the last quarter of the game.

I can’t see his decision-making alter; because the way he sees a game is unlikely to alter.

I’d hope it would and I suppose now, the new main man at Everton, will be thinking long and hard about our manager and what the future holds with him.

The sad thing is, I don’t see Martinez attending to the defensive weaknesses... in fact, I’m not sure that he sees them as weaknesses.

I watched them bastards last night argue over free kicks when they had just kicked the ball out and even got one or two because they argued, in the referees face from the first minute, ducking and diving at every opportunity, Leicester do the same along with the majority of teams.

It’s not nice or ethical but unfortunately it’s today’s game... and if you stand back and wait for teams to act fair, you get what you deserve – NOTHING. This manager is not going to change so that’s what he’ll finish up with; alas, so will we.

Martinez's biggest downfall is his decisions after we kick off, plus his press conferences.

Don’t give him big money – this man would buy Messi and play him as a full back!!!

Game after game, the reputation of our present manager is nosediving and a point of no return is almost upon us.

So, rather than go into the detail of where things are going wrong – or indeed agreeing with the OP and waiting for the good times to toll, I will give our present manager one bit of advice that I know he won’t read... but it is this:

To get everything back on track, find a way to win at home – at least most of the time. You have already dug a big hole with many many match goers of all ages. Stop digging.

Yes our attacking football is the best I’ve seen for decades (only the league leaders and Man City have scored 1 more than us) but we’re leaking goals in vital times in games when we should be shoring up.

Can Martinez solve this? Well, two seasons into this debacle appears to prove otherwise. We maraud forward to victory but leave our back door wide open.

But please, please, don't ask old timers like me to be patient. I've seen precious little success in my 50-odd years of support and bugger all for the last 20.

You make much of the away record of the Catalan but, for all that, his overall score is a paltry 20 wins from the last 66 games, although the promise... blah, blah, blah....!

I see you say in the Echo in "View from the Gwladys Street" that the treatment of Bill Kenwright by some Evertonians has been disgraceful.

A tad harsh, in my opinion, but as you say he is the ’biggest’ Evertonian of them all and that I suppose means that he is beyond reproach.

Our results – especially at home – have not been good enough.

Martinez Out!

This is the sad thing, that we wouldn’t have needed to win all those lost home games, or even a majority of them, for us to be in a really good position in the league. Just 4 more home wins this season – just 4! – and we’d be equal 4th!

The history of Leicester tells you that it has been a yo-yo club. Staying in the division, before this season, was always seen as an achievement for them. What they’ve done this season is incredible though and fair play to them.

My point was that Everton should never have such low ambitions and Moyes got away with saying it for far too long.

I credit Martinez for immediately changing the tone but – if you read the entirety of my post – you’ll find I credit him for little else!

Moyes had finally succeeded in draining the last drops of my enthusiasm for watching the team before his departure and I was firmly in the ’Moyes Out’ camp.

Although I admit to fearing change, and being seduced by those that told us to ’be careful what we wished for’, I’d even contemplated whether playing in the Championship would be so terrible if it meant us producing attractive football again. So, when a young Martinez swanned into the club, his enthusiasm, confidence and belief in a philosophy of playing football was infectious and totally spoke to me.

The speed at which he had our previously pedestrian hoofball merchants playing joined up football with a splattering of flair and swagger was astonishing and immediately gave credence to the point that Moyes had stifled creativity in our team for years, further compounded by his catastrophic failure at Manchester United.

I was joyous and the happiest I can remember watching Everton. Win or lose, we were exciting again and a record points tally pointed towards success in the near future.

Fantastic young signings and a seemingly obvious commitment to the cause from the older professionals and then... Lukaku and Deulofeu signed.

We really were moving in the right direction. And this is the reason this season has hurt so much.

Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in football and there’s no doubt Martinez can do this. I would never advocate sacking him to replace him with another Moyes character but something now has to change. His stubbornness is bordering on madness and his failure to admit his mistakes has lost the fans. His tedious responses to questioning has now reached the point where I stop listening, or worse, recoil in embarrassment as he trots out the same excuses and phrases again and again. As an ambassador for Everton, he’s fast becoming a laughing stock.

And yet I still believe him when he says we’re only a whisker away from being a top 4 challenger. We now have new investment. a goalkeeper, left midfielder and we really could do it next season. But somebody at the club needs to tell it to him straight that there are certain things expected of him and his excuses will not be tolerated. Be a man and stand up and be counted.

And 'Lukaku better than Sharp'........now come on.......

On a different note, the need for a top quality goalkeeper put me in mind of Bob Latchford’s autobiography when he said that if we had bought Peter Shilton when he was available, we would have won trophies galore in the 70s. Top teams always have top keepers.

In saying that... I hope we never end up like Newcastle.

Yes, there are some positive signs and have been some positive performances but ultimately it's a results game. It's been almost 3 years now and the results are getting worse rather than better.

A simplistic analysis perhaps but surely none other is required. You are right, the table doesn’t lie.

That is the problem though – he doesn’t learn and more importantly he rarely acknowledges that there even is a problem.

The opposite to your article of hope is that he will take us down eventually if left in the job!

So sums up Roberto Martinez, does it not?

I see we are close for a few reasons.

One being we are 2nd top goal scorers in the Prem. (I know, I know "what about the goals conceded")

I see it because of the squad he is building, the next step will be this window when he will have players leaving to be replaced by better players.

It’s not rocket science, we score plenty of goals. If we can concede less, we fly up the table.

Let me first list points that I agree with about Roberto, points that I have written on other threads in this past week:

* record PL points haul in his 1st season

* some good signings

* plays and improves young players

* the value of some of those players has soared in RM's time with us

All good so far. But then, your defence (sound familiar ..?) unravels.

It is a futile, unproveable exercise, to claim either way that the success of RM's 1st season was (or wasn't!) built on David Moyes' hard work and solid defence.

What is possibly fairer to say is that in his 1st season the team retained the best qualities of a Moyes team (the 39 league goals conceded was only bettered 3 times during Moyes' tenure), but RM welded onto that greater attacking verve that returned 61 league goals (better than anything achieved under Moyes. Only Joe Royle's 6th place in 1995-96 returned more goals in the PL era - 64).

By making the claims you do based primarily on RM's 1st season and throwing in "As the saying goes, the table doesn’t lie" (as other posters have already stated) leaves you wide open to ridicule, I'm afraid Gareth.

Why? Because it can be thrown back at you about last season's finishing position and where we currently sit in the league. The rest of your post also massages the data to cast RM in as favourable a light as possible.

Yes, our away form is impressive. Not great, because we don't win enough games, but a solitary defeat on the road is good. We are 6th in the PL table based on away results.

Unfortunately, the overall PL table also takes into account home games and on that data we are a woeful15th place having gained the same number of points at home - 16 - as such illustrious luminaries as Sunderland, Norwich and Bournemouth. Only Palace (14) and Villa (10) have less points than us at home.

Taking a closer look at our home form, since we beat the forlorn Villa 4-0 at Goodison on 21 November, our PL home reads:

P 8 W 1 D 2 L 5 F 13 A 15 PTS 5 (from a possible 24).

A single win against another relegation bound club - Newcastle - is all the home support has had to cheer in nearly 4 MONTHS!!!

THAT's why I don't subscribe to your badly veiled attempts to make the home support somehow responsible for our poor home form. The poor buggers have had very little to cheer or get animated about in nearly 18 months now.

GP was a bear pit last Saturday, following Mirallas' red card, reacting with a sense of injustice and getting right behind the team and cheering to the rafters any successful tackle, clearance or pass and jeering any misdemeanour by WHU or perceived poor call by the ref. THEY were not to blame for the final 12 minute capitulation.

Your excusing of the semi-final exit in the League Cup to Shitteh (and somehow listing it as a 'success') conveniently ignores the fact we were 2 goals up in the tie and (again...) contrived to lose it.

We were still a goal to the good after an hour when RM removed the threat of Deulofeu for the ineffective Kone which denied Everton an out ball and invited Shitteh on to us all the more ... and I don't have a Twitter account or need a UEFA pro license to see and understand that for myself.

I would also add we have ONLY ONCE this season won 2 consecutive PL games (home to Newcastle, away to Stoke last month), and we have to go back 10 months to April 2015, 33 PL games ago, to find the last time we did this.

That is not evidence that either the manager or the team are on the cusp of greatness...

You conclude by saying "We’ve got an attacking manager who is trying to play attractive football with a talented young squad who are only going to get better. Mistakes have been made and hopefully he and they will learn from them."

Two things here Gareth. First, how many times this season alone have we heard RM uttering the players have learned - not are learning, but have learned - from previous 'painful' experiences ... only to repeat the same errors, leading to the same disappointing result?

Secondly, why do you believe RM himself is capable of learning? Do you not pay attention to what he consistently says? He is steadfast, unflinching, in his beliefs and 'philosophy' of how the game should be played.

Again, this season alone, how many times have we heard the manager say he is not concerned with clean sheets? That Everton is not, and will not under his charge, ever be set up to prioritise preventing the conceding of goals? That he will never instruct his players to negatively play out time at the end of the game when in a winning position? It's on record he does not pay much attention to dead ball situations, offensively or defensively.

In the excellent recent article by Patrick Boyland Roberto is quoted as saying:

"I believe the way the game should be played is in a specific manner. I like to see players taking risks, getting on the ball and relying on the talent of the players to score goals rather than systems and dead ball situations, keeping clean sheets and not taking risks. (my emphasis).

"Unfortunately you get too many managers achieving success with another type of football. You can analyse teams over history, and there are parasite teams (my emphasis again). There are certain styles that guarantee you 40 points, that’s success. Unfortunately you have other young managers trying to play the right way and they get relegated. Football is not right in those moments."

Gareth ... do any of the above comments leave you feeling a bit ... queasy? Because they do me.

Roberto Martinez is an idealist, not a pragmatist, and this is why Everton continue to frustrate under his stewardship.

He is clearly deeply enamoured and influenced by Guardiola and the Barcelona model. He wants his teams to produce football of aesthetic beauty and has contempt for 'parasite' football. An admirable ideal.

However, as with most lofty idealistic aims, you very rarely encounter the ideal conditions, the liberty and blank canvas on which to paint your grand Masterpiece.

In football, the opposition will not be passive sedentary models, willing to 'turn to the left a little' so you can catch them in a good light and mould them to your liking.

Within games, there are passages of play where you are not afforded the luxury of time to carefully mix your pallet and delicately enhance the appearance of your canvas. Rather, you have to race against the clock like a manic plasterer trying to breach a hole in the wall and before cracks start to appear in the rapidly drying plaster.

The RM quotes above, added to his now almost weekly pronouncements on his idealogy of how he WILL play the game, is further confirmation IMO that this man is not for changing, or 'learning' as you argue.

He doesn't do or care for the dirty, grittier side of football. Indeed, he expresses clear contempt for it.

Sadly, I would argue that it is that side of football that is most prominent at the highest level of professional football and having an idealistic manager, not willing to compromise and be more pragmatic to combat that aspect of football, leaves Everton at a disadvantage in every single game we play under this manager.

Brilliant. Unfortunately, it will fall on the unsighted eyes and deaf ears of both RM and Gareth, one would suspect, since both are far too advanced for the likes of us.

Interesting that the second to last season with Moyes, the team finished with 56 points and his last season with 63, an improvement of 7 points. RM’s first season, the improvement was 9 points over that. Thus, couldn’t RM’s first season be viewed as the team progressing as expected to achieve where they should be in the table, namely 4th, 5th, or 6th? This would match the expectations of many on here as to the quality of the club RM was left with (well, except the Moyes haters).

So, it is clear that RM, despite adding to this group of players, has taken them backwards and down. Regression, in this case Gareth, would not seem to be the mark of a successful and future great manager. Nor should it be seen as a "philosophy" of football that works, at least in the EPL. I wonder if it will work for Pep when he gets here? RM is where he always was with Wigan, the bottom half of the standings, albeit a little higher than his Wigan finishes.

If Leicester can improve from nearly relegated one season to current leaders the next, their second in the league, then why oh why can’t RM with his dazzling brilliance?

The league table is enough to sack him. If I was in charge of the club, I'd want the senior pro's view on Martinez's future credibility and the kind of replacement we need in the summer.

How can a football manager hold dead balls and defending clean sheets in disdain? They are both arts and tenets of what makes a successful side and you don’t need to go all Tony Pulis to respect and focus on them.

Martinez doesn’t deserve a place at the top table with an attitude like that, it’s ridiculous.

"The man who cultivated the squad"???

Martinez has for two years rendered the most exciting full backs in the country virtually impotent with his stay-at-home possession obsession. He has turned international centre-backs into gibbering wrecks. He won the lottery when he inherited Stones and Barkley, but both have already endured unnecessarily miserable seasons. He destroyed Barkley last season and is doing the same to Stones this time around.

His "wonder buys" have an unnerving habit of disappearing for months on end – where's Deulofeu? Why was Besic overlooked so often last season? Why did a seasoned pro like Barry stink the house out for nearly all of last season? Why, if he is a "flare manager" does he insist on playing tackling machines with no guile – Cleverley and McCarthy?

I've got some news for you, Gareth: Lukaku did not come here "largely because of Martinez". He came here because we were the only ones to meet Chelsea's price and he came here because we were offering him an absolute fortune. Without those two little parts of the deal, he would not have given Martinez the time of day.

Sharpy was a beast of a player. I was fortunate to see all of his greatest goals. To the other side of his game, he didn’t take shit from no-one. And there were some tough motherfuckers playing in his day.

In comparison to today’s players, Costa would spring to mind... yes, Sharpy was that good; by the way of aggression and putting himself about, you could compare them.

But none of these mentioned had the grace of Graham Sharp. He had fantastic skill for a big man. In my opinion, and this is what this forum is all about, he's the greatest striker I have ever seen at Goodison.

The only person that can be held responsible for that is the man who organises the training and picks the team.

This brings me on to my second point. Roberto and his supporters keep talking about individual mistakes costing us. They mention the same names over and over again and sometimes you have to check that you are reading about the right match because the mistake that they are describing is the same as the mistake they described a few weeks earlier. The only way to prevent mistakes recurring is to train until the actions are so well ingrained that the mistakes are eradicated. If your team is conceding to many goals from crosses you practice defending crosses, it really is that simple.

And do you know the best thing about practising how to defend crosses, you're also practising how to cross the ball and how to attack crosses. The fact that we are not good at defending or attacking crosses shows that we don't practice them enough and whose fault is that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/football/article4711277.ece

Now fast forward to the present day and once more Roberto is hanging on to the hope that winning the FA Cup will somehow make up for his total and abject failure in the Premier League. Over the last three seasons he has been given more cash to spend than Moyes seen in the eleven seasons he was here yet all we have to show for it is one 5th place finish.

The idea that some success in a domestic cup competition can somehow make up for the total failure of his expensive side to make any impact in the Premier League is totally unacceptable and I have no doubt that is exactly how our new owner will see it.

Roberto is fooling nobody and only kidding himself. He is finished whether we win the cup of not. If we do get knocked out today, especially if it’s by a big score, it will only confirm what we already know: Roberto’s time is up. Time to start again with a new owner, new manager and a clean sheet and put the last three seasons behind us.

Fast forward three years on and they were spot-on. If they could see it then, why can’t you see it now? The man is a fraud. The sooner he goes, the better. The man should be sacked even if we win the FA Cup.

I agree about all the positives you describe but even I am tired of him not putting in another DM for an attacker when leading at home. I know he wants to develop a team that can "play" a game out (see the City game when we were down to ten men) as opposed to to just "seeing" the game out. Still.

This is a young team that has basically played together this one year. Yes, some parts have been here a few years but this "team," due to injuries and summer additions, have only played together this season. I'd like to give him a chance to see what he does with this team in it's second year.

We need a winner – not a fantasising Guardiola wannabe. A manager who can attract top drawer players and not a mediocre mid-table cup chaser.

Every Evertonian is delighted at this result. Is it a turning point? I hope so, but experience makes me doubt it.

It certainly is not the time to gloat over ToffeeWebbers who have very valid concerns about the under-performance of this team and their manager.

Martinez either won't or can't do this hence the ridiculous number of goals we concede, our lack of shape off the ball, no closing down, no pressing, set piece naivety and questionable fitness. He's proven for the last two seasons that he's not good enough for the Premier League, and for 3 or 4 seasons before he joined us when he was at Wigan.

What a silly comment, all the more so that earlier in the thread @ 83 you generously acknowledged the counter opinions offered to Gareth’s OP.

The thread had gone ’kinda silent’ beacuse – as all threads do – it had run its course and contributors were engaged elsewhere, expressing their joy on the defeat of Chelsea on other threads.

Your post @ 94 is a clear attempt to imply Saturday’s cup win negates all the poor results and (justified) criticism of the manager and the team in the past 18 months.

It doesn’t vindicate anything of the sort. Rather, it spotlights once again what the team (and manager) IS capable of and what they should be achieving with greater frequency in the league than a once-a-month, one-off cup game.

And Gareth @ 96. I complimented you on your OP, but as for this pseudo philosophy ... just pass me the sick bucket!

I for one have never gratuitously abused or insulted the manager. On the contrary, I have often stepped in to defend him, including this season. Nor have I ever called for his head. I do, however - a–s I express in this thread – have doubts about his capabilities and his pronouncements on games, the performances and the players.

Either of you care to actually engage in the well-presented counter arguments to your own position on the manager offered in this thread, rather than presume some kind of ’moral high ground’ for yourselves ...?