United expose gulf in quality and resources

I forecast a mid-table struggling side like last season. Man Utd came with a plan and had the players to implement it; the reality is we are nowhere good enough to beat the money clubs.

The insertion of Lennon who seems to have lost all ability to ever cut inside and take anyone on, or even make a run past midfield, was shocking. He is nothing but a defensive player at this point and one who wasn't needed since Coleman was slotted in at right back.

As for Naismith, he was point blank awful. his second touch on the ball was a turnover. He is a Chelsea killer but on any other weekend is and should be on the bench. Either Delboy or Mirallas should have started with Kone and Lukaku up front.

Everton FC may not spend the sort of money the rich clubs do, but in many cases (most) that merely means we don't squander as much. We have players like, Coleman, Barkley, Lukaku, Baines, Stones, Jagielka who would strengthen their teams, we also have players like Deulofeu, Mirallas, who although not consistent enough, have as much skill as any of their players.

I'm back in love with Martinez after the way he stood firm throughout the John Stones saga; I think he is improving, but he still has this annoying habit of bringing back his favourites as soon as they are available. Seamus Coleman (one of my favourites too) should have been made to wait for his chance to get back in. He had a shocker yesterday, as did one or two others. I would suggest that had more to do with yesterday's defeat, than the amount of money the clubs have spent.

I agree with you, Lyndon: yesterday's result feels / is irrelevant. It seems wrong to even discuss the game on the day we lost an Everton giant... but you can imagine what his reaction would be to that.

Yesterday was a bad day all round for every member of the blue family.

I agree with you on the wide players we picked – it limited our attacking game and to see Mirallas and Gerry sat on the bench for a home game annoys me.

It wasn't our best but we got punished for our mistakes. They kept the ball better and we relied on the hoof as a form of counter attacking rather than doing it in a more controlled way.

The balance of the side is still a concern to me too, no left-sided Pienaar type player but I think we will still have a great season and look forward to Cleverley's return who may solve my concerns.

They were extremely well organised (or at least were made to look so by an Everton team that stood yards off the opposition and didn't press at all) but they didn't produce anything unexpected or out the ordinary. They didn't need to,of course.

This was the best United display I've seen since Fergie left. They were quick, strong, quick, creative, quick, skillful, quick, hungry, quick... you get the picture.

All the pundits agree that we were second best in every aspect of the game and that happens. It doesn't make us a shit team. It doesn't mean our season is over. It just means that on the day they were great and we weren't.

Van Gaal's Utd do not attack with pace, we simply gave them too much time. Darmian and Rojo are shite fullbacks... did we get at them? Did we fuck. Stones and Coleman were not fit enough to start and Stones was not his assured self.

Utter shite and I left early as this is total dross at the moment.

How much does it cost to work your guts out from kick off? How impossible is it for us to buy a centre mid who has got genuine physical presence, good movement and an eye for a good forward pass?

How much does it cost to keep picking players who are doing a good job, like Funes Mori and Kone?

Martinez would have been crucified on here if he hadn't played Stones and Coleman and we'd lost. I think he's got to start backing the players he's bought. Funes Mori has been playing well and Kone has linked up the play well. Why not start with the pair of them and give Man Utd some problems early on?

I keep saying it; we've got too many forward players who are 75% there, all trying to cover up each other's shortcomings. I'm just concerned that we'll have to get rid of the deadwood (Pienaar, Gibson, Mirallas, McGeady) before we can bring in better talent.

Money is not the issue, we beat moneybags Chelsea comprehensively. I also happen to agree with Paul J that this is one of the weakest Man Utd teams in recent years and nothing to indicate there is a gulf between us as some suggest.

We are seeing the same mistakes repeated, some punished some not. We are shocking at corners, this needs to be addressed. Players still playing out of position, needs addressing. Players not getting dropped when out of form, needs addressing. The players losing possession cheaply for the last 3 games at least....

In the interest of being a better blue, I have tried to bite my tongue this season and warm to Martinez. The Southampton and Chelsea results certainly made me question my opinions of the man, but yesterday really stirred up my disdain for Martinez once more.

It was obviously an emotional day for us and I will put it down to that but I rarely enjoy watching us anymore. Even the Liverpool game was not acceptable tactically. I expect to see a reaction against Arsenal but doubt it will happen.

We are a team at war with itself far too often under Martinez. Getting the best out of Lukaku and Mirallas (our best players!) should now be priority number one.

For me, there is a consistent problem of the whole team not putting anything into the game until the second half.

As most have already said, you don't need to spend millions to be fit and apply pressure. Under Martinez, we consistently stand off teams and give them the space to play around us and that is compounded when teams close us down quickly and take the ball off us.

We look lethargic and off the pace too many times under this manager. I was told yesterday that some of the backroom staff he cleared out are now employed by West Ham...

We started slowly again and with low intensity; the balance of the side was not effective (much better with Kone on in the second half); and the actual performance was below par, with (again) defensive lapses to the fore.

Blaming Howard is clutching at the wrong straw. I felt sorry for Lukaku who was one of the few to put in the intensity and performance.

We are playing the same as last season and during the summer we never got in the player we have needed for the past 4 seasons and that is a quality midfielder that can open up defenses.

Barkley was praised last week for his games for England were they played him in front of the back four. Playing for Everton they use him in front of the 2 defensive midfielders and he does not seem as effective were the opposition find it easier to crowd him out.

Watching the game yesterday and the previous 8 league games, we look a lower mid-table season team and as the Manager is now into his 4th season with the club the expectancy has well and truly worn off.

Saturday's game was unacceptable from an Everton side and it is amazing that the club can still receive the support that it gets. With more rumors about takeovers, the club should have their manager having the team playing with at the least "commitment and intensity" as the first team are supposed to be the showpiece of the club.

My apologies I stated his 4th season even knowing it was only his 3rd, guess I was getting mixed up with his Wigan period. Many more displays like Saturdays and hibernation may be a good idea.

I didn't see Barry getting on the ball, and he was chasing shadows for much of the game. Playing from behind didn't help our cause.

Before Barkley got around the box they doubled up or fouled him.

I agree, Lukaku worked his rear end off. Tactically they did us and too many in blue lost individual battles.

Tough to blame Howard for the loss but like a lot of our guys on the day, his opposite number out played him. De Gea made the saves at key points in the game.

The loss is dwarfed by that of Howie Kendall , not just a great man and manager but a wonderful player. Sadly missed.

I don't believe it was an "investment versus no investment" argument. If that was the case, Man Utd would have given a much better account of themselves against Arsenal.

For me, it was about tactics. Clearly one manager who had fired up his team because of their last performance and another Manager who didn't prepare for this eventuality and in my opinion couldn't fire up his team if they were playing for their lives.

Even when the reality of what was happening on the pitch eventuality dawned on Robbie the Cautious, he failed to do what the hour called for and bring on, at the start of (or very early on in) the second half, Kone, Mirallas and Deulofeu for Naismith, Lennon and Barkley.

More often than not, he appears to be like the rabbit in the headlights and fails to act decisively when it's pretty clear he needs to.

When we are playing as poor as we were on Saturday surely the logical option is make changes.

I'm afraid this season will be what in my darkest moments I believed it would be – a mediocre season under a mediocre manager.

For those who would come back with the money argument – and whilst I'd welcome new investment – it was only weeks ago people were saying that this was Everton's best ever squad for a considerable time!

If we don't close teams down and hit them hard we're fucked. United are nothing but we made them look good. Centre of defence was crap midfield looked tired and lifeless.

Why did that Spanish idiot make changes? Stones was lost, Coleman was clueless. Everyone was fooled by a bit of form but we are still crap.

Can anyone answer me. Why can't we get stuck into teams from the off? What is RM's plan?

However, I also don't agree that this was purely an issue of effort. I saw plenty of it from Everton until the air was sucked out of them by the two goals in the first half. The problem for me wasn't one of application, it was execution.

While United were swamping us in our final third and then ripping forward with the kinds of quick passing that we used to destroy them back in April, we insisted on knocking it long too much. And once we went 2-0 down, we didn't really look like we knew how to respond until Roberto was able to get into their ears a bit at half time.

The game was really won and lost on space – they gave our key players almost none of it and we afforded them way too much. At one stage, there were five men on one blue shirt but we weren't able to profit from the space that having that many players focused in one area creates.

But, I can't look beyond the fact that 20 years ago, United would be going through a period of readjustment that would have taken years. Their massive resources have enabled them, however, to buy their way back into the top 4 and title reckoning in very short order.

They've bought players like Mata, Herrera, Depay, Martial for massive sums of money (and wasted plenty on the likes of Falcao), any one of which would be welcomed at Everton and two or three of which would walk into our team. They highlighted areas of need – fullback, central midfield, striker, etc – and had both the resources and the pulling power to get them. We talked the talk all summer but failed in our main objectives.

On top of all that, they landed a vastly experienced manager (again, that doesn't come cheap at all) who, while carrying the air of a buffoon, is turning their club around, giving them organisation and belief, and making them look like a top side again. That they were humiliated by Arsenal was, arguably, down to the sheer quality of the players at Arsene Wenger's disposal and their ability to turn it on on the day. We can't hope to match that and we have to admit that if one of those teams plays to its top potential in a given 90 minutes, we are not going to win. It's that simple – the way United played yesterday, we couldn't win IMO.

That's not to excuse Martinez who is responsible for the way we defended, how poorly we pressed the ball despite having six defensively-minded outfield players on the pitch, and how we're not able to consistently move the ball around in the final third with any effectiveness. But there are realities at play that we have to acknowledge.

If players who wear the blue shirts of Everton can't put the effort in, then they should find a club where they can. Because, a couple of weeks ago, Arsenal put 3 past Manchester United without conceding a goal.

Yes, Herrara and Martial are two good players but not that I would swap Barkley or Lukaku for.

The main difference for me is that they were prepared properly and we weren't.

They had a tactical plan and we didn't even get out of the starting gates.

One home win in 7 against far lesser teams than Man Utd says it all for me, as does the consistent not closing down and being unable to control midfield.

All team issues rather than individual problems.

Do the players respect their manager? As it seems to me they do not respect the fans. It is really all about effort.

Personally I think our own fans are having a negative effect on the players; sure, they go to the match with good intentions but are they 100 % behind the team, whoever is on the pitch? What happens to the 5 or 6 thousand travelling blues fans at Goodison, are they told to be quiet.

I listened to the audio on headphones and all I could hear was Man Utd supporters, even from the off. Oh I did hear the groans and moans and the booing at half-time.

Well, at least the travelling army will cheer the boys on at the Emirates.

I like Naisy, he's a trier and has some good goalscoring instincts but I thought his touch was awful on Saturday. No doubt that was partially due to the opposition closing him down as soon as he got it but the number of times he lost the ball or gave a poor pass was into double figures.

I think James McCarthy and Gareth Barry were swamped in midfield and also thought that Macca had his worst game for us in ages.

They were cutting through us like a knife through butter and our midfield and defence seemed not to be able to get near them. It looked to me that it could have easily been 4-0 by half time.

Perhaps we could have started with a different setup and tactics, maybe with Mirallas and Lennon going at them from the start and leaving Naisy on the subs bench.

Overall though, I though Man Utd were excellent, organisation wise, talent wise and whoever said Rooney was over the hill, I'd have him tomorrow if he'd come back.

I think you're right, Lyndon, we have done alright, so far this season and we have had a tough start.

However, if a team has consistently spent hundreds of millions of pounds and brought in top class managers, then I think it's going to tell.

Two teams have come to Goodison this season who I thought were classy, aggressive and knew what system they were playing to. That was Man City and Man Utd.

I don't know if Utd will win the League; I doubt that they will but I think they'd certainly be in the top 4 places, if they play like they did on Saturday, same with City.

Us? Again, I agree with Lyndon, we've got some fine young players coming through and some decent Premier League players but, without being disrespectful to those players, we are picking up journeymen or those who are past their best, either on frees or for comparatively small fees.

I'm sure that if we were able to spend the amounts that the top 5 or 6 clubs have spent, we would be in the mix with them. But we can't.

As one who remembers the mid 80's and just about remembers the 1969-70 team, Saturday was a very sad day. God bless you, Howard lad, I am sure you are enjoying your eternal reward.

And as has been stated, a £100m(?) worth of talent against what they've spent (£400m?) is a factor, believe it or not. I still think that on our day, with the right players, attitude and tactics, we can beat anyone.

Ross coming back into the central midfield areas when they had the ball did nothing to close play down and merely allowed another Man Utd payer to pack the midfield. We should have left him high up the pitch with Rom to occupy that spare Man Utd player and keep him from adding to our midfield pressure.

Our tempo is slow and cumbersome; despite having a lot of pace in the squad, we never attack quickly as RM likes this possession-based football starting from the back. As Alex Ferguson said, possession football without penetration is meaningless, and that is exactly how we play a lot of games.

We play with Lukaku up front and isolated with Barkley and his wide players at lest 20 yards away, and with our 2 defensive midfielders getting nosebleeds if they cross the halfway line; it limits our attacking capabilities.

Seems like he has no intention of starting Mirallas anytime soon despite him being our best goalscorer from playing out wide. Some rightly say Mirallas doesn't put it in every game but he is usually a goal threat which is more than can be said for Lennon or Cleverley or Besic who have all started in that wide role.

A manager who seems a nice bloke and seems to have most of the players onside but does not know his best team and does not seem to be able to get the tactics right consistently when coming up against high class managers. He also makes some baffling substitutions.

The end result is a team that flatters to deceive, that is capable of the odd inspiring moment or game but generally lacks solidity and consistency. A team that will usually compete but lacks incision and clinical end whilst looking much dodgier at set pieces than it used to. In short, a team that has not won any trophies for a while and hasn't really looked like threatening to do so.

Both managers may have their positions questioned and if I'm honest I probably fall into the camp of thinking both should be replaced although I'm only 55/45.

As we all see the game differently, my view is that Martinez is a good manager. He, I believe, still has a lot to learn but I'm much happier with him in charge than I was with Moyes.

I don't see that our defending is much worse now than it was with Moyes and, as we have four internationals in defence, I would have thought they know the rudiments of defending by now.

I think that, mainly, I view it along the same lines of Colin (#31) but differ slightly in that I believe we can give most teams a game now, even the rich clubs and we are capable of beating most teams on our day.

Someone criticised a number of us the other day for saying that Ross has things to learn and I think Brent has summarised those well. Whether he'll ever learn the aspects that Brent has mentioned, who kinows? If he doesn't, then the team will have to adjust it's style to compensate.

That certainly didn't happen on Saturday, where Ross and Naismith were both ineffective in stemming the flow. We had no-one to take the attack to them on the left and we sadly miss the attacking strength of Pienaar and Baines when they were in great form during Martinez's first season.

At the beginning of the season, I thought we'd find it hard to break into the top six, and I still do so. We need a goalscorer on the Roy Vernon, Tony Cottee or, dare I say it, Ian Rush or Gary Lineker mould.

We also still need a general in midfield but the big block in the way, is cash.

De Gea is exceptional but I don't think it's beyond any club to bed in a good keeper.

Back 4s. I'll have our best 4.

Schwein and Schtein or McCarthy and Barry? I'll take McCarthy every day - the other 3 are rank average .(Schwein in his day but he's long since past his best – I know some will slate me for that but it's how I see it.)

Their attacking options won the day but, even then, we've got decent options too.

The difference is that players like Naismith or Lennon wouldn't get within a mile of their team. I like them but it's the squad players who tell the tale. Towards the back end of our best 11... it gets a bit weak.

On the day, they were nothing special; certainly not anywhere near Man City's level. They're a good team who made the most of some poor defensive errors. They've got some good players; they'll do that.

In attack, we're simply too conservative. We caused them problems but if you're not getting players in the box at 2-0 down at home then there's a fundamental flaw.

It was never a 0-3 game but we didn't cover ourselves in glory.

Right now, I'd see us as a Gary Stretch type. Quite popular, decent to look at, and we're clearly at this level. But no-one really expects us to progress beyond being a few steps away from the main prizes. I get the sense that we're kind of happy to just compete.

On Saturday, we looked more like Richard Dunn.

(And it'll take a billionaire rather than a millionaire to turn us into GGG.)

Only one of these played on Saturday so what's your point?!? Maybe keep it for another thread as they had (apart from Howard) nothing to do with Saturday's poor performance and even then I don't think blaming the keeper is right.

Mark, I thought we beat Chelsea a couple of weeks ago?! Are they not one of the monied clubs anymore?

My take on it, the back four should have remained the same as the last few games but, saying that, I would have been annoyed and surprised had Stones and Coleman not started. (Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? Who would be a manager, eh?)

I don't know if the players were affected by the news of Howard's passing, but the crowd certainly were. A very strange atmosphere all round. I certainly hope we witness a reaction against Arsenal, or the stuffing could be knocked out of us before Christmas. Two important games coming up, I hope we can get at least a point at Arsenal, and through to the last 8 in the Capital One Cup against Norwich next Tuesday.

6 months ago, the scoreline was reversed and I don't remember talk of Martinez displaying a tactical masterclass or Everton being outstanding, we just grabbed the opportunity of a poor display from the opposition. These things happen, particularly when you have a lot of young players in the team.

Special mention for Jagielka doing a "Yobo", of all the days to do it and to gift him a goal was just the cherry on top of a dreadful day. Onwards and upwards –there will be a vast improvement against Arsenal, I am sure of it.

But only yesterday I read that huge amounts of debt were currently being paid off so I guess we can't have it both ways.

Personally, I'd be happier to learn the Club is in a healthy financial state than see us 'chasing the dream' as did Leeds. Just look at the mess they are now in.

Naismith was awful; I really don't understand the point of Aaron Lennon, and I wonder what we have to do to consistently see some appearances for Deulofeu and/or Mirallas.

I'm a long time (55 years), non-Scouse (parents are), Evertonian and a passionate lover of the club and its magnificent fans. I don't like the negative extremism but I still rate this as the best EFC site by a country mile because its editorial and fan base is fair and independent. As always, a very good thought provoking article by Lyndon.

Can we consistently compete against clubs like United who can outspend us by multiples? No, of course we can't... but surely we can avoid this type of abject humiliation.

The whole team were flat from the outset. Very little zip or verve in the legs. I don't think the sad passing of Howard Kendall can be blamed. If anything, the ovation afforded to his memory, magnificently observed by home and away fans, should have lifted our lot, but no.

There were a number of players who simply didn't cut it on the day. Seamus, and Stonesy looked decidedly ring rusty, particularly our right back. In centre midfield, Barry and McCarthy were over-run.

Jimmy Mac in particular looked jaded and out of sorts, drooped shoulders, standing around watching play, a picture of frustration, a shadow of his erstwhile bundle of energy. I'm not sure he warrants a starting position at the moment, possibly needing to recharge his batteries and his attitude on the bench. Gibson, Besic (when fit), Ossie and Cleverley are worthy in-fills.

Lennon runs around a lot, but mostly to little effect. We craved the cutting edge of an 'up for it' Kevin Mirallas. Our goalie was a pansy as usual. Hates the physical stuff that man. A goalie who has been at the top for 15 years should be covered in battle scars, but I reckon our TH still has his eye on fashion modelling when he packs in!

On the plus side, the team came out with renewed energy in the second half, and I felt it was game on until Jags' defence splitting pass to the opposition. I thought Ross was better than people give him credit for, and I thought Lukaku was a beast. One of his best games in the shirt.

We must do MUCH better this Saturday, or embarrassment beckons!

To me, it shows that there is a lack of character and drive in the team, as has been shown previously. One of them should have been geeing the team up and getting them going if they were looking down.

I agree that it's crazy that Mirallas and Deulofeu aren't starting more games – they are matchwinners and a threat. I know the argument about the defensive side with both them starting but surely that's why we play 2 DMs?

If you take Man City for example, it wasn't so long ago that they were in the third tier of football and now they regularly compete for the title, cups and are a shoo-in for Europe. Great coaching? Motivated players? I would argue, perhaps somewhat controversially, that having a sheikh who's poured zillions of pounds into the club has had the most telling effect.

Yes, it's 11 v 11 when they cross the white line, and when we're up for it, we've got a team that can beat anyone on the day. But what we don't have is world class players sitting on the bench chomping at the bit to get on, which in turn keeps the ones on the pitch motivated.

Onto the game and a couple of quick points:

1) If RM continues to play the formation then Barkley and Naismith cannot play together. They're both playing or trying to play behind Lukaku and if they're going to be in the same team them Barkley has got to further back and replace Barry or McCarthy.

2) The two holders in midfield has ran its course. A good idea when you have Coleman and Baines bombing forward, but obviously that isn't happening and, even when Baines returns, teams set up to nullify them.

The problem is that Barry & McCarthy offer nothing going forward; we'll be lucky to get 5-7 goals out of them and their passing range is poor. This means that the onus to score falls on Lukaku when in fact the midfield need to chip in at least 20 collectively.

We were comprehensively beaten but conversely not hammered but the slow-out-of-the-blocks start needs to be addressed. Start like that against Arsenal and we'll be back to the bad old days of being beaten 6 or 7.

Moyes never beat the top 4 teams. Under Martinez, we've look more likely to consistently beat the top teams than any EFC teams I've seen in the last 25 odd years.

This is the best EPL squad that Everton have ever had and it's been assembled by a mixture of homegrown talent, canny Moyes bargains, and exciting players who have come to play for Martinez. I'm not saying that we're getting the most out of the squad but we certainly haven't lost our soul.

We battered Man Utd last time, Arsenal just battered them and LVG put a rocket up their arses. He made some unpredictable changes that paid off (Martial on the wing, Depay dropped, Rooney up front despite an awful run there previously) and Smalling was absolutely superb.

They were well organised and patient. If we'd got the first goal, it would have been a different match but one thing you can say about Martinez is that, unlike Moyes, when going a goal down to a top 4 team he never shuts up shop, through fear of conceding more, and hope to sneak a goal from a set piece for 1-1 draw. That's not the sort of "soul" I want back at Goodison.