Hughes punishes Martinez's naïvety as Stoke win wild Goodison contest

Another roller coaster game of emotion, which you have described perfectly. When 3-2 up everybody should be behind the ball and worst case scenario you would only concede 1 goal if any with 18 minutes to go. Martinez does not grasp this results based business so get him out.

What on earth do they do in training?

Lukaku must be fuming, so many goals yet so few points won.

We lack composure when in front. The idea of possession based football is to control the ball and thus, maintain shape. We lose all shape. This comes down to the training.

Talented players, the lot of them (OK, Howard may be past his expiry date) but something is wrong. We have only beaten teams below us.

As an opposition manager, you would always be confident in getting a goal or two.

We still have 19 games, but we have blown our "make or break" run of 'winnable' fixtures. Now come Spurs, City and Chelsea.

We need 6 points minimum.

Personally, time for Martinez to go. Bottom half at new year, with the leagues second best striker of 2015.

Bielsa is available, and apparently willing to come to the Premier League. A talented manager with this talented squad could still do something this season.

If Leicester can get 38 points in 18 games, no reason this team can't.

But never with Martinez.

Bielsa In Now!

Great report, as ever Lyndon and right on the money. We have the most exciting squad I have seen as a blue in 30 years, but we just can't defend.

Something has to change

I find the reports and comments on here and on Ken Buckley's page quite measured and reasoned. No angry outbursts or bad language and this is to be welcomed. I also listened to Rio Ferdinand's comments about Stones and he gave considerable reassurance for a man not playing that well just now. Would he be better playing alongside Jags when he is fit again? Hope so.

The manager is the MAIN problem we have, down to his dangerous style of play, his apparent preference for players with modest innate ability like Kone, Galloway and Naismith, and his overwhelming positive spin.with the media. He talks like we don't have a problem, so I wonder whether he really thinks like that. Deep down we all know Blue Bill will not do anything rash, so I suspect we are stuck with Martinez for a while longer.

Thank god we have Barry (who has come in for some bashing before on this site), Barkley and Lukaku. I thought all three played great yesterday. Barry is not only our linkman, in my view he is our best defender. Our defence has no shape, Seamus many times out of position when passes are misplaced and Galloway just doesn't know where to stand, when to go forward and when to stay back. But my point is our bad defence is not just Stones and Funes Mori, it is almost the entire team that has to learn. All these problems down to the manager in my opinion.

But for Lyndon to let Clattenburg off the hook is just not fair. If you watch Leicester's first penalty against us, it is eerily similar to the action that took Coleman down in the first half yesterday. And the Stoke pen was just refereeing gone mad. Remember Clattenburg when Carragher wrestled Lescott to the ground .... nothing!!!

I think this guy has a problem with my team, and this had a material effect on the result. So while agreeing we must have a defensive system, you can't legislate for incompetence or corruption such as that displayed by Clattenburg.

Fran (3), Biesla? There are quite a few other good ones available as well (e.g. Spalletti), but can we trust the board to find someone better? Would someone want to take over us at this juncture, with the winter window pretty much out of the question for a new manager. Not to mention, firing someone when we're not in a relegation battle is not really our nature.

The best we can hope for is for our beloved club to survive this forgettable season by RM and then maybe, MAYBE we might have a shot at hiring a good manager and fixing the mess that we've got into. We need someone who can pick out the good from the past (whatever's left I guess) and present and make them better going into the future. If not, we're likely to see an exodus of players that are talented but doesn't fit the new manager's philosophy.

For some weird reason, we're still considered better than the rest, mentioned in Men in Blazers as a challenger. Either they are still drinking RM Koolaid or they didn't watch our games. I'm thinking the latter...

Almost to the extent of biting my key board I have tried mightily to observe TWs plea of a few months ago not to be over critical of Roberto and the players. It appears that cracks in this more gentle approach are starting to appear and ere long it could see a return of open slather.

Michael Kenrick and Paul Traill are clearly losing patience with matters on the field while you and Ken struggle to accept what is staring you in the face.

Martinez has taken this team of many talents as far as he is personally able. He has failed to sort out our woeful performance at attacking and defensive set plays and corners That have been a disgrace for far too long.

A start could be made by using player/s who can consistently bypass the first defender. That also begs the question of why Barkley is given the job in the first place. He is a big lump of a lad and could be useful in the box specially as his corner kicks are crap.

Another easily fixed error is Deulofeu's tendency to do multiple stepovers while Lukaku is increasingly boxed in and wondering what Del boy will do next.

I could go on about half dozen cases where Martinez does not seem to have a clue how to remedy. Happy New Year Lyndon, Michael, Paul and Ken.

Am I the only one who just rolls back and laughs at the calls for Roberto's dismissal?

Talk about unrealistic... can ANYBODY remember a mid-table team, performing essentially as expected, suddenly sacking its manager at the New Year? Ever?

I don't mean like a Chelsea or a Man Utd, title and CL contenders crashing and burning. I'm talking about us... a team predicted to finish somewhere in the middle of the pack and currently residing there, picked by nobody for either Europe or relegation and with no danger of either one happening.

What side in our position EVER replaces a manager at midseason?

The only way Roberto gets sacked this season is if we suddenly drop eight straight and plummet towards the bottom, and that's simply not going to happen.

There's no way.

Brian 6. While I concur with most of your comments and personally dislike Clattenburg, I think that in real time Stones looked to have taken Arnautovic's legs. When he did not immediately give the pen, I breathed a sigh of relief, but then I think he was told by the lino that it was a pen, and then he gave it. If only they could have used a video ref, like in Rugby or Cricket, then justice could have been done. Of course Stones slid in naively and any striker in this league will go down hoping for the pen in these circumstances. The travesty is that the Coleman trip was much more worthy of a pen, and was overlooked, poor refereeing.

Once 3-2 up, we should have got every man Jack behind the ball, and the attackers should have closed down their defenders. it is no good Kone and Rom and del just trotting about in these situations ,everyone has to do their bit. Kone was out on his feet, as was Del and the boss was stupid not to get Besic or Ossie on to help man the pumps.

I fear Martinez will never learn. He has been in the game long enough to deal with these scenarios, but alas, we see the same errors week after week. I am sick of it, and would like him to go elsewhere. It wouldn't be so bad if he admitted his mistakes, and tried to rectify our errors, but he seems in denial, and never takes responsibility. Saying "we have to learn" is not good enough, as we are obviously not learning, but throwing away a rare chance to break into the top four.

It is criminal, and negligent. Although I admire the grit we have showed in not giving up and playing some attractive stuff, what is the point if the team don't know , or aren't allowed to defend properly?

I'm sick of saying it – Martinez was not and is not the man to manage Everton FC. Mike G points out, "who sacks a manager in mid-table", etc. Well I want to know who in God's name appoints a manager who has just relegated his team?

Check his record out and ask Wigan fans what the problems were and you will not like what you hear. Check Wigans record before he took over and compare it to whilst he was there. Does anyone at Everton do these checks before appointing him?

Nice man, means well but not a top manager and never will be. A talented young squad being wasted by this waste of space.

Mike Gaynes, never say never. We need to play 5 at the back, 4 across midfield, Lukaku as usual on his todd. Gareth Barry as sweeper. Robles in and leave him in. Then let's go and get Hughes or Bilic.

Best squad since the 80s, exciting young team. What a load of absolute shite. Yes, we've rattled a lot of goals in but by God weve shipped a few, especially at home. This manager in a couple of seasons has managed to make Goodison one of the easiest places in the league to go and get a result. It wasn't always exciting under Moyes but it was one hard place to come and get a result. Even under smith one season we went from September to April without losing a home game.

Martinez hasn't learned that you attack as a team and you defend as a team. Yes we attack as a team but we certainly don't defend as a team. When sides attack us at home it actually looks to me like we've only got 8 men on the pitch, the space these opposition players get is criminal. That coupled with a defender who thinks he's Beckenbaur but cannot defend to save his life. He's petrified to head the ball, can't tackle and is easily bullied.

He's got a partner now who is unsure what to do with ball wen he receives it. When he first got in the side he'd clear it by putting the ball in the stands like any sensible defender. That's been coached out of him.

He's sucked the life out of Coleman who'll never be the player he was under Moyes, and as for the keeper... well let's not go there. Sarcastically applauding the fans when he caught the ball. Arrogant fucker.

While I respect everyones views and opinions could you please spare me this "exciting team" mantra because believe me it isn't true. The manager has seen to that.

We have four international defenders, five if you count Jagielka, though strangely Martinez doesn't always select them. Two defensive midfielders, though for me Besic is the best of all in this role, and admittedly the worst goalkeeper in the Premiership, and we can't defend at all.

As Fran Mitchell says, what do they do in training? Martinez's selections and substitutions are a riddle wrapped in an enigma. Yet we have the best attacking trio in Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barkley since the mid eighties and possibly rivalling, Young, Vernon and Temple. Martinez is not merely a cavalier in the Keegan mould as a manager, he doesn't understand how to close a game down and when to close a game down.

We are drawing and losing games which we control which is a sign of poor organisation and poor coaching.

Just seen on Sky the powers that be to take no action on Roberto's comments about Clattenburg decisions v Stoke, does that mean they agree with them, if so will they take action on ClattenBERK?

When we go 3-2 up, after the celebrations, nearly everyone in the ground looks toward the Everton bench to see if the boss is readying Besic (or even Ossie) so he can replace the 'dead on his feet' Kone or Geri.

We can then get everyone behind the ball except Lukaku, who can do the 'hold it up' job when needed, and show an ugly, pragmatic side to our game (a plan B, ha!) designed to see out games.

It really isn't that difficult but RM is so obsessed and stubborn with his keep ball philosophy that history will just repeat again and again and again. Enough already!!

I don't buy the suggestion that, at 3-2, Martinez should have made a substitution to shore up the defence. The problem I saw is that, after taking the lead, we dropped off and allowed Stoke to have the ball. We should have continued with the attacking mentality and intensity that had them on the ropes in the first place.

Whether it's the players or the manager, we allowed Stoke back into the game by going deep and attempting to defend a lead. The best form of defence, they say, is attack, and, since that's what we're good at, it's what we should have continued to do.

I'd have brought Gibson on for Gerri or Kone at 3-2. Playing Barkley, Dealofeu, Lukaku, Kone, and Naismith in the last 10 mins is ridiculous.

Keegan out!

It's totally insane making the same mistakes, did he not learn anything at Wigan other than how to play nice football that gets you relegated? Stoke are 2-1 up and Everton are playing the patience game of slow predictability when Cleverley picks out Lukaku with a lovely 40 yard cross field pass that this world class striker buried.

It went totally against the whole philosophy of retaining possession and endless passing. I remember under Moyes we used to lump it in with long ball specialist Unsworth and then more recently Jagielka would pump it up to Fellaini.

These tactics can work if we have the variation in the play, sometimes a big heave ho to the forwards can unsettle the opposition given they are not expecting it. I have to laugh at corner kicks, both hands go up as if it's a special signal but invariably its just lumped in the middle and a well organised defense clears it.

Just play it short for once or have some preconceived idea what your going to do with it, how's about a flick on from the front post or delivered at high velocity at knee level making the defenders work a bit harder. Any variation is better than nothing.

Watching Stoke and Leicester defend with a half decent keeper they have been miserly but it's not surprising when you get ten bodies behind the ball and have a couple of tall commanding centre backs. I'm thinking John Stones should be playing along side Barry. Mori and Jags with Baines and Coleman. Mori at least wins a few headers but we do lack a bit of height and muscle at the back.

After what is 9 seasons at Everton the fall from grace of Tim Howard is just sad. He never was an agile keeper always was an error waiting to happen. Those typical flaps and reckless penalties that gifted goals was made up for it with outrageous stops that are bread and butter for most keepers.

Brian (6) "But for Lyndon to let Clattenburg off the hook is just not fair."

Not sure I did, Brian. I said it was a disgraceful decision, worse because he appeared to rely on the eyes of his assistant on the other side of the field.

My point was that I was would be just as angry and Everton would be only marginally better off points-wise had we drawn 3-3. Draws are useless in the current Premier League – if you want to progress you need to rack up wins. We had one in sight and let it slip away, either because we didn't go for the jugular or didn't try and get compact, bring on that third sub and protect the lead.

Mirallas has always been against playing twice within a week but not having Lennon on the bench was a big error. We needed his defensive energy in the last 20 minutes when Stoke's last two goals came from the rear righthand corner he always helps to protect. Saving players for the Spurs game was no way to win this one.

" the opportunity for Everton to mount a push for the top six remains open", it is, but not with this current farcical Spaniard in charge, do you honestly think he could turn it around?

Everyday I wake up and put on SSN hoping to see that yellow band scroll across the screen with the words "Martinez sacked" splattered across it. If he's not, I fear for our club.

Philip Yensen #12, good luck with your application for the job.

Martinez has changed things. In the last two games, the big hole in front of the left back became the big hole in front of the right back. Instead of their nornal role to the right of Barry, McCarthy and Cleverley both patroled the left.

With Lennon on the pitch this would not be so bad because he always tracks back to help Coleman and Stones. With Deulofeu on the pitch it's asking for trouble and that's exactly what we got. A left back and a left winger with all the space in the world and they murdered us.

Harold your spot on. Before the Newcastle game I said I would of played Lennon and then started Delufeou v Stoke. If Lennon had been on the bench v Stoke the last 20 mins would of been an ideal situation to bring him on. He'd of tracked back and helped out Coleman and gave us a cracking option on the break.

Mike (#9), I understand what you are saying re Martinez will not be replaced in mid-season, does this mean you are happy with the manager?

You are usually much more realistic than that.

It is only the very very top players like Messi who are not being asked to track back and actually do some defending.

As much as I like Barkley and Deulofeu they are not up there. They need to learn to play both ways. Barkley got the physique to do it but Deulofeu needs to develop it.

It is simply naive to have 3-4 players who are not defending. Even if we had Cech and shawcross in our team we would leak the same amount of goals.

Look at Sanchez in Arsenal or Silva in city they defend much harder than our attacking midfielders. You can't defend with 6 men in the PL.

Interesting to note that our 2nd and 3rd goals both came from moves initiated by Ramiro Funes Mori who leapt high to head their keepers punt. This is one tough strong Argentinian with a mighty jump.

I don't mind attacking with the lead instead of substituting a defensive player and trying to see the game out. Bournemouth and Leicester attack even with a lead. The problem I see is fitness once again.

Our players don't seem to be fit enough to continue the attack which then leads to us going flat and the other team scoring late goals. The players as a whole certainly aren't able to press and chase down the other players all game. If Vardy can run all game then why can't Deulofeu and Barkley and everyone else?

I don't mind attacking football so long as the players are capable of sustaining it.

Henrik / Jim. The point you both make is far too serious to ignore. To be honest, it's been on my mind all week.

I've watched the full Stoke match umpteen times and the same question always comes to the fore. How on earth does Mark Hughes get his players to work so hard? From Shawcross to Shaqiri, every single player closes down quickly and tries to regain possession.

Apart from the three amigos up front, they're just ordinary solid pros but in the space of a couple of days the same bunch of players mullered both United and Everton. Of course, it remains to be seen how they will fare in the next couple of games, but with six points in the bag I guess Hughes will be sleeping more soundly than Martinez who looked to the future and made four changes.

Harold @30; Q) How on earth does Mark Hughes get his players to work so hard?...A) He's the Boss, he tells them to – or else, no doubt.

Just like Martinez tells them to pass – or else. He's the boss, as Andy @13 says, when Funes Mori first played he put it in Row Z... now he doesn't.

The real reason Stoke got the pen for the winner is Martinez... not Clattenberg being a kopite twat... or Stones being rash or somebody giving the ball away out wide.

It's because the team are playing exactly how Martinez tells them to.

Mike Gaynes @9; you can be forgiven for saying... Can ANYBODY remember a midtable team, performing essentially as expected, suddenly sacking its manager in the New Year?

Well, yes I can; Everton January 1977, right before a League Cup Semi Final as well... There IS a precedent.

Yes, I think Jim's point is critical. We don't maintain an intense approach and we flop at crucial stages of our matches. All the successful teams press and keep pressing and are able to control the rhythm of games.

There is always a moment - and you can see it coming - when we just glaze over and stand aside for our opponents.

Happy New Year, all.

Well, Harold (#30) it is always a trade-off, isn't it? If your creative players are spending all their energy defending, they won't be creative anymore. But our mix is just not right. We have too many players who are not taking defensive responsibility.

My 11-year-old son, who is a central midfielder, is asking "Why isn't Barkley running when Stoke has got the ball?"

If we got that defensive/offensive mix right, I think our defense would suddenly look good.

Derek, 100% with you on the passing business but I'm sure he doesn't tell them to pass the ball straight to the opposition or to go to ground in the box and turn their back on crosses and shots.

I'm also sure he didn't tell Deulofeu to ping those early right foot bending crosses to Lukaku. They were the lads own invention when he couldn't get down the line. They worked so Martinez allowed him to continue.

All the same, I do get your drift. He firmly believes his football philosophy will bring us success and demands that his players follow it. You don't believe it will work so you want him out. Fair enough. I don't think you are on your own.

Martinez has hinted that he may need three or four more windows to make us truly competitive.The squad faces may change but we will be much stronger with decent backups for every position. Unlike now where things are getting pretty desperate. Okay but we'll probably lose Lukaku and Stones. So what, I think. There are 10 teams above us who don't have Lukaku and Stones.

Interesting times ahead.

Very Interesting times indeed Harold, but we could be competitive now with only a slight compromise in the Philosophy. Now he might see it as a step back, but if you are right, in 3 or 4 windows (summer windows) Imagine just how competitive we could be. So instead of seeing it as a step back, it could be a run up for, in the words of Mao, A great leap forward.

But it won't happen... he won't change, adapt, tweak, tune etc etc. Standing still is actually moving backwards.

I would agree with the point made re Funes Mori and his reluctance to clear his lines as he did when he first came. Not the player's fault, obviously... but can't the manager see that doing that was what made him a good addition to the team? Sometimes you just need to get rid!

Now that we have both him and Stones doing their Total Football impression at the back, we are again one slip away from giving stupid goals away.

Haha. Nice one Derek.