Martinez: Everton are not under-achieving

Attack is the best form of defence providing you can actually outscored the opposition on more occasion than not such as Keegan's mental Newcastle team of the 1990's, but we can't do that.

In our case, it should be:

"Defence is the worst form of destruction."

How can he be allowed to say that Everton sitting 12th in the league at the end of January is not underachieving? He should be sacked immediately and the press conference should simply say that any manager saying "Everton sitting 12th is not underachieving" will no longer be the manager of Everton FC.

Taxi for Mr Martinez.....

We can now all join in the big belly laugh.

"You need to go through painful experiences"!!!!

Why? What successful team has ever gone through over 2 years of painful experiences? The players' confidence is getting shattered game after game.

No wonder he looked flustered when Kenwright said he had told him he would get us Champions League. He probably thought he would get away with that BS too.

Sadly, this time last year we kept him – despite it being painfully obvious that he didn't have 'it'.

Now our youngsters are one year older, one year more hyped and one year more ambitious. Come summer, there have to be serious concerns regarding Lukaku, Coleman, Stones, Barkley, Deulofeu and McCarthy, with Mirallas and Funes Mori looking like going, and Pienaar and Kone getting binned.

If we're not lucky, i.e. billionaire takeover, then it looks like the procrastinating 'give him another season and we'll be ace, honest' chickens might be coming home to roost, big time.

That said, I note that some of those who have spent two seasons buying time for this El Clown now appear to be trying to deflect blame onto a lack of leadership from the top. That in my view is a disgraceful attempt to blame what may be – and I hope it is not – a dying, loyal Evertonian, who's like we may very soon come to miss a great deal.

The board should issue a statement straight away to say we are underachieving and the players, coaching staff and manager need to grasp that quickly.

RM saying that just promotes disillusioned players who must be thinking, "Is this guy for real, as we should be getting a bollocking." Instead, the players will dread playing on Sunday at Carlisle and at home against Newcastle as they will believe their performances are acceptable.

This has got so bad for me that I cannot even stand to see his face or hear this guy speak anymore, which is making me lose interest in supporting Everton whilst he is in charge; he has taken away my emotion of the team I fucking love with a passion.

I've heard it all now. This comment doesn't just take the biscuit, it takes the whole packet.

So what exactly are we doing??? Standing still if not under achieving because we certainly aren't achieving!!! What is this clown on, 2½ years of what??? Trying to assemble a squad??? That may not achieve???

Seems to be another excuse. But remember he never makes excuses!!!

The margins at this level are so small. Yes, we have drawn too many but we haven't lost too many either. If he can keep the squad and add to it I think he is right that the foundations are there.

There are times, like the first half of Wednesday night, where we looked unplayable but the confidence goes as soon as the other team scores.

[I'm ready to be shot down now...]

Howard, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman, Pienaar, Osman, Mirallas, Naismith (first half season), Barkley, Oviedo, all been at the club a fair few years.

Barry, Lukaku, McCarthy, Stones, Kone, all well into their third full season at the club.

I make that about 90% of the regular playing squad....

Next excuse?

His first season should have been this season finishing 4th or 5th with 21 wins and it would have been easier to understand if he'd had two seasons of steady transition after first getting the job but Martinez, like the team itself has gone backwards since 2014.

How can that be when it's arguably a more experienced group than it was that 2013-14 season with Barkley, Stones with many more games under their belt and Lukaku, plus Deulofeu with more experience.

It's you then Roberto, it has to be, if this team finished 5th two years ago why have last season and this so far been allowed to happen??

The players have deteriorated under two more years of baffling leadership from this manager and it looks more like a bunch of strangers now than when Martinez walked through the door nearly three years ago.

So it takes time does it? His first words were "I will get Everton in the Champions League" in the first season.

And so Leicester must've been building a team for decades going on their great form. I am sick of his utter rubbish now.

Anybody I talk to about us, they think Martinez is great, until I put them right. I think my wee girl (#9) could do a better job.

Martinez and his endless drivel is driving me into a manic depression.

Sorry, Reberto, I have been imagining our shit defending, giving up leads, and shite second-half performances! Send in the clowns!!

"When I die, I'd like the Toffees to be my pallbearers...so they can let me down, one last time."

Granted, bad refereeing decisions and bad luck is out of your hands, I'll give you that.

Being thick and ignoring the very obvious short comings in our team is not bad luck, it just shows that change is needed.

I think you have two games to save your arse.

No Everton manager has even been allowed to state that 12th is an acceptable position for this club of ours.

Please, someone get this guy to go.

I'll owe you royalties for that line – say ٟ a repeat? You'll be able to retire!

Has Roberto secretly been reading the scripts?

Can't believe a word the man utters anymore, totally deluded

Please save us from this fool.

The only way he is not underachieving is because he lowers expectations with every game he is in charge.

Maybe that's it, maybe he is exactly where he knew he would take us when he was appointed (as some of us, including me, also expected and posted on this site) whereas it was only our silly fanbase, used to regular Top 6 challenges, who had higher expectations.

This fella really has no place being in any managerial position higher than a scout, and every single week the facts and statistics become more stark whilst he becomes more delusional.

Read comments from other fans on websites. He is well and truly rumbled and continues to make our formerly Top 6 challenging club a laughing stock.

To steal and paraphrase from Alan Partridge:

"You, Roberto? You couldn't manage a.......cat....."

The sooner this clown is out of our club the better. He's become an embarrassment.

Does he conveniently forget that he took over a 6th placed team (16 wins), improved it to 5th (21 wins) and then 'progressed' to 11th place (12 wins).

So the truth is that he actually OVERACHIEVED in his first season quite substantially and has gone downhill from there.

Or is this deluded half-wit preparing us for relegation?

Either way, it must be time for him to go.

Imagine what utter bollocks the players and the Everton staff must listen to on a daily basis.

Please, someone in a senior role at the club, put this man and the fans out of their misery once and for all.

It would be an attempt from any grounded manager to regain credibility. Compare these comments with the press conference of LVG who was at least realistic.

There are really only four reasons for this drivel that I can think of:

1. He is deluded (clearly true to some degree whatever else);

2. He is so arrogant that he thinks the fans or the board will swallow this rubbish (he may be right to some degree on both points);

3. He has no confidence that he can improve on this and is attempting to manage expectations (and for the Moyes haters, this is about 10 times worse than any "knife to a gunfight" comment that people still hold against OFM);

4. A combination of any or all of the above.

Any one of these reasons are concrete grounds for dismissal in my book.

This time next season, assuming we're still in the Premier League, Lukaku and Stones will both be gone and probably one or two others as well. How will that make is stronger?

Taxi for Mr Martinez.

I do believe we have a good group of players, I do believe there is potential to do a lot better.... but how can he say we are not underachieving and still banging on about being close to top 4?

We seem to be oh so close on many occasions... but too many occasions to count, which means in actual fact we are nowhere near good enough.

I'm not sure whether he has his head in the sand or the clouds, either way, he can't see what we see at ground level.

God, this is such a frustrating season. It's almost worse than being completely shit all the time!

I would rather have Colonel Kurtz in charge than him.

But he's going knowhere so.....

I would rather us grind out wins, pick up the points and then work on possession. Martinez, I just don't believe it is acceptable to have 70% possession in games and not win them. To be at home and concede 3, or even 4.

We have never had an honest explanation from Martinez that could give us an honest breakdown as to why we can be Barcelona-esque at the front and Frickley Athletic at the back on a consistent basis. Martinez is forever telling us that we have to be patient, but be patient about what? How long does he expect us to continue to put up with this?

I have read in the media recently that Bill Kenwright is not a well man and his absence at recent games reflects this. I sincerely wish Bill all the very best wishes at this moment but I can almost imagine his ill health being a reason why Martinez has not been sacked already as the club obviously have more important things to worry about.

What if the club is genuinely in the process of being sold and they are leaving the retaining / sacking of Martinez up to its new owners? Why rock the boat now and wait until the sale has gone through?

Martinez has been in very choppy waters for 18 months now and has anyone noticed not once has the club come out in the way all other clubs do and actually stated that Martinez still has the backing of the club? Does that not seem odd?

The Newcastle game fills me with trepidation, and despite all the excuses from last season re World Cup fatigue, Uefa League fixtures etc.., things have not improved significantly from last season.

We are heading for the bottom six not the top six. Empty words from a poor manager. Time to go Roberto.

Surely the most comical football interview ever. Taxi!

"We have been hugely let down this season by our performances from which we all, myself even more so must take full responsibility for. I'm sorry for the fans that we have not given them a prouder record at Goodison especially and it's no use me saying we will learn lessons from bad results or bad defending. The only way is to actually IMPROVE so that the fans can acknowledge we are working at getting better."

That would sit a whole lot more comfortably with most supporters than all this bullshit jargon and superlatives we always hear which we are sick of by now.

You should all email him your comments:

firstname.lastname@Evertonfc.com

His PA, Sue picks them up. She told me he reads them. Whether that's true or not I have no idea. Good luck

Final thought which nobody has mention yet: Has anybody else noticed that all 23 league games this season have been what you might call epic watchable battles, certainly for the neutrals? Why is it that teams seem to play better when they play Everton? Because we allow our games to be open at the back and Martinez has us passing it around at a relaxed and arrogant pace. So it's only inevitable that when we have the ball and are pressing forward it looks great on the eye, but then so does any other team when hitting us on the break because of a Barkley slip or a Stones trip.

This makes all our games appear to be end to end edge of your seats football, yet the reality is we bring it on ourselves because of the way we play. Teams shouldn't get credit for playing this way against us as its Everton that allowed them to do it.

But all silliness aside, the Club is in a very risky position with so much at stake at this point in time. What with Bill's health, power vacuums, take overs, absentee board members, massive money on the horizon, anti-Everton media set-up, crumbling stadium, controlling or not losing the dressing room, young guns not firing and looking to leave, increasing anxiety in the support base, worsening relations with the 'authorities', transfer window likely to close, McGeady, media spotlight and vultures ready to pounce, Tim Howard, Bill Gates . . . . . Not surprising he is 'losing it'.

The real challenge now will be to get to the finish line intact. I think we will do that. However considering that say only 50% of the real news actually surfaces into the public domain, it would not surprise me that optional stability strategy plans are being developed if not in place already. These will include for continuing with, or without Roberto.

The probability is that the developing dynamic is starting to have an impact on the Club at all levels. It could quite easily implode very quickly. Someone will need to take a firm control and ironically the only person in position to do that is Roberto himself. Can he? Will he? I doubt it.

If Carlisle do a giant killer on us, and Newcastle get a result, then we might be easily drawn into the brown stuff. I hope there is someone behind the scenes who will take some big decisions and they will be the right ones.

I would hate to see it if we were!!!

I don't subscribe to this idea that were were brushed aside by City, we were doing okay until Twatkinson took the shithouse rout. The deflected equaliser and the offside winner gave them a scoreline that flattered them.

Other clubs have been flattered recently too, several getting results they simply did not deserve. Mark my words... this run of bad decisions and deflected goals defies any sort of logic... it can't last.

Mark my words... this team is about to embark on a run of victories over the next 7-8 games.

We need a manager who has managed successful teams and knows what's required to get the three points!

Martinez is on another planet if he thinks a bit of talent shown here and there is enough to have a strong team! We are so far off being a top side it is criminal as only a couple of seasons ago we were up there with the best!

"Today, the tide has turned, We are destroying them."

For pity's sake, put him out of our misery.

Is delusional ineptitude a sackable offence?

If we finish the season in the same fashion as the last 12 games, we are going down.

Words marked, Darren. What constitutes "a run"? And surely we start counting after the Carlisle game?

We haven't lost to Carlisle for 40-odd years so we should be okay on Sunday.

Can't wait now. It was mentioned in the press about Jagielka keeping a clean sheet when he once played in goal so let's put him there.

Helmet and flack jacket on now....

I think "strait" is spelled S-T-R-A-I-T and not F-L-A-C-K as you have done.

Don't mention it, no need to thank me

He's implying either OFM is much better than him or that he trashed up the squad. You can't praise your squad while suggesting they deserved to lose (not underperforming).

Are you American... because I would spell it S-T-R-A-I-G-H-T?

I feel sorry for them and for all blue supporters who have to watch and listen to ineptitude from our Spanish Curandero (Charlatan). He can destroy the English language, I'll have a go at his.

Just go RM

No, it's not based on hope, it's based on the logical expectation that these shit decisions and poxy deflections can't last.

I think we will get around 45 points by the time we have played 30 games, if we don't get them, it won't be my luck which is out, it will be my judgement.

No I'm Scouse and I spell it like that because that's how it is spelt.

grammarist.com/spelling/straitjacket

Deluded isn't the word it's more like insanity.

There's little point in saying any more. Let's wait and see exactly what the next several games bring. He will either prove himself right or we'll all know for sure he lives in a parallel universe.

There has to be a limit on the times you can offer positive improvement without any sign of it happening!

It seems to me, now, that Martinez is utterly deranged and could well be the worst coach in... well, just history.

Blackburn had a guy, his name escapes me now, who got some really fierce abuse before he got sacked. In comparison to Roberto, I think he looks like Sir Alf Ramsey.

Interestingly, I just read a useless blog post on ESPN trying to deflect blame from RM. He is the media's darling, but only a showman, nothing more.

To get rid of him now would do what exactly? Any new man in would take 2 or 3 seasons to build his team, so we would be back to where we are now. Everyone has to admit, the football we are playing is probably the best since the mid 80's. Okay the defence needs sorting out, we all agree on that.

But I think we are not far off, look at how long it took Fergie to get Man Utd sorted. And I don't see Arsenal winning the league every season. Remember we are not playing on a level playing field with the money some clubs have.

All I would say is be patient and be positive.

All you doubting Thomases are going to look really foolish once the penny finally drops with those thick as pig shit players and they finally develop the know-how of a winning team and then it all comes together in a blaze of royal blue glory.

Plus, he does look cool in those brown shoes.

(Ssorry no offence meant... couldn't resist!)

Poor decisions come and go and they do not necessarily balance out. Remember the season under Moyes, when we were not awarded a penalty until the 38th game? Looks like its going to be the same this year too. (That is an incredible statistic which should get the conspiracy theory juices flowing!)

A first half of the season of being on the wrong end of bad refereeing does not mean we will benefit from good decisions in the second half.

The latest Barry Horne article in the Echo suggest we should stop looking for excuses. However, Roberto has fallen into that trap already. We should develop a siege type mentality and focus on improving game by game and just see where it takes us.

How can he say these things when everyone and his aunt can see exactly what's happening to our once great club? The guy needs psychiatric help for sure but meanwhile our season goes down the drain with every game and with every inane muttering from Martinez.

Why is this being allowed to continue when any other club would have got rid of this abject amateur long ago?

Typical Martinez response, it's not as bad as it looks and where is it is a little off target it will get better, losing is just an opportunity to make you appreciate winning more. Relegation is an opportunity to get promoted.

Fans leaving the stadium gives others the opportunity to watch the games. He needs to get a job in politics not football or at least read a book on tactics

Does he really not realise that this team is already capable of much more if only he had an ounce of defensive sense?

I'd have confidence in jam tomorrow if he could at least get some of the available jam today.

I agree with him that this team will develop, but will Roberto? He's making a very good case in these comments for his own dismissal.

"I will never come out with excuses and try to justify lack of wins."

Another contrary diatribe. He's just incapable of making clear, coherent statements. Is it any wonder the team doesn't appear to have a clue how to set up?

Thought Atkinson, was a disgrace the other night, and I also thought we never played that badly. Actually blamed Martinez, for his crazy decision to put on Kone, for Gerry, instead of going like for like with Lennon.

This is a big worry to me now regarding Martinez, because I just can't see what possessed him to make such a strange decision. It really was that bad.

Martinez is 3 leagues out of his depth – he frustrates the fans who practically sit on their hands in silence at Goodison; it’s embarrassing to watch as well as frustrating. He’s inept, stubborn, rambles about anything, and everything is 'phenomenal' – what’s phenomenal is he’s still in a job.

It’s criminal what he is doing to the club, as if it wasn’t enough, the crap and lies, smoke and mirrors about ground moves and takeovers we have had to take over the last 17 years, and going on 21 without a trophy... if that’s not patience, WTF is???

He needs to go now whilst he still has a shred of credit as a (pretend) manager. It hurts to be a blue right now – we could do no worse from now to season's end to get Unsy and big Dunc in to salvage something. COYB.

I intended to leave this debate and switch off but I couldn't resist one comment to your post.

He could say that: "We realise our defending has been pretty poor. We are now going to go back to basics and keep as many clean sheets as we can.

"At the same time I've told the players that our aim will be, as well as keeping clean sheets, to get the all from back to front as quickly as possible as often as possible.

In the final third I want player to ensure they shoot on site. If we don't finish games with at least half a dozen shots on target in each half I will want to know why.

"This will be out approach in the forthcoming games and I promise you we will pick up as many points as possible. If you don't see the improvements I've mentioned I promise I will throw myself off the roof of the main stand on a match day. Thank you."

Christ where did this come from?

Could it be that he's gone a bit... mental?

I mean sure his point-of-view can be debated, but stridently and confidently articulating these particular opinions at this particular moment in time (ie, after recent shite results and given the reasons for those results) shows his judgement is certainly goosed.

I don't want to get too technical, but to use a term often used in the sphere of psychiatric therapy and/or psycho-analysis, he is exhibiting signs of being completely off his fucking jaffa.

How about the odd clean sheet too, perhaps start from there...

15 games then produce 5 wins, 5 draws and 5 defeats. Not too much to hope for, surely? That will see us finish on 49 points and around 8th/9th place.

Parity achieved. Job secure.

Place your bets!

Well, yes it can. It has been going on for at least 30 years that I know of.

While RM is on the loose can any of us sleep soundly in our beds?

In the night?

In the dark?

Roberto said, this is a unique opportunity to work in a phenomenal environment where I will be able to realise a lifelong dream – singing Kumbaya around a camp fire, sin miedo.

Senor Bob, if we did have such lofty ambitions, you and BK would have been lynched many months ago.

This team he is building will be decimated in the summer so where will we be then?

"Developing something that is going to be very powerful for the future". The best players will probably leave in the summer, because we've failed to qualify for Europe. Why would Lukaku and Stones want to stay and waste another year of their relatively short footballing lives competing in mid-table if they are good enough to play at the top level? We, the fans, are stuck with Everton, but they are not.

Martinez keeps saying that the players are still learning, but are they? Making the same mistakes time and again doesn't look like learning to me. The Goodison crowd is having to teach Stones how to defend, by booing him when he takes unnecessary chances. Why isn't Martinez taking the lead in coaching him?

These ridiculous statements from Martinez indicate that he does not understand what we need to do to win games, so nothing will be done. Everton FC will continue to let down the long-suffering fans.

RM needs to realise that actions speak louder than words. I appreciate he has to be seen to protect the players in the media, but there comes a time when he must stop talking rubbish a tell it how it is, he'd probably find we'd get behind him if he did.

To me he's clearly out of his depth and either doesn't know what to do, or is that blinkered and stubborn believes he knows best.

What really worries me is that the board are clearly convinced he is the man for the job. Otherwise, anyone with at least half an eye in his head could see what a fucking mess he is making.

I am seriously worried for our top flight status if we keep this clown. I lived in Carlisle for many years and a lot of my old friends up there are relishing Sunday's meeting. They think we are there for the taking and if I am honest with myself, I think they are right.

I'm Robert's biggest critic but some on here are going seriously over the top tonight!

What The World Needs Now - Dionne Warwick
Promised You A Miracle - Simple Minds
Daydream Believer - The Monkees
Shiny Happy People - REM
The Seeker - The Who
Tubthumping - Chumbawamba
Don't Worry Be Happy - Bobby Mcferrin
Everybody Loves Me Baby - Don McLean
Don't Stop Me Now - Queen
I Am The Walrus - The Beatles

I've even got a bad feeling about Sunday.

That said, we've definitely underachieved this season and the one before. Just like a year ago, if he keeps his job, he's a lucky man.

Stand By Your Man - Tammy Wynette

Tiptoe through the tulips - Tiny Tim

RM being off his rocker, there just happens to be a full moon slap bang in the middle of that - 22nd February.

This is no time for melodrama but MAY THE LORD GOD'S MERCY SHINE DOWN ON US ALL.

The more I read, the less impressed I am about the man. I called him out very early in his Everton FC career as being akin to Mike Walker, from what I've witnessed from his team and heard in his ramblings at press conferences I believe he could be far more toxic than Walker for the club in the long run and if he remains in place a minute past the end of this season we will be in for a battle royal to keep our PL place next season.

Not that I'm over-confident we will be completely safe this term, and I certainly wouldn't want to go into the last few games of the season needing a certain number of points to be safe as this man has time and time again led his teams to defeat when it was least expected.

Somebody at the club has to wake up and smell the coffee because as the games run out and the pressure builds we need a person at the helm that is rational and smart, not a person who is stubborn and relies on belief alone. But to confound everybody he will probably lift the FA Cup at Wembley and get a top 10 place in the League, his reputation enhanced and his place in Everton's history assured – if that happened would I change my mind and give him another season – the short answer to that is NO!

Moyes had 11 years. Martinez has not yet had 3.

You need 5 years to build a team particularly where the ethos is developing youth and this he is doing well. He is right when he says we have some of the best young players in Europe.

Obviously certain areas need to be worked upon, mainly concentration and decision making.

I predict we will beat Carlisle by at least 2 clear goals and then we stand a good chance of getting to the final and winning it.

Maybe then the bandwagon will grind to a halt. But I doubt it.

I think as Evertonians, we've just about had enough of the BS. From the Manager, the Board, it hasn't helped with Roberto pushing it over the cliff with the surreal. But enough is enough, the lies, false promises.

As John Lennon sung just "Gimme Some Truth".

I think unless, we are in peril of relegation, new owners will wait until the summer before sacking him.

I think Kenwright will stick by him till the end of the season unless the following happens:

We lose to Carlisle and Newcastle. Now the combined odds against both those contingencies seems to me to be just higher than 16/1. Added to that the possibility that Kenwright will want to be right over his appointment I believe he will stay.

However, I cannot believe that Martinez will be manager at the start of next season and I believe that would be, at fair odds against, a decent bet.

This is not a young, developing squad. It is a mixed squad, not unlike most others in the league. Brenda was waffling like this just before he was let go. It would be nice if Roberto would stop waffling, as he is going nowhere.

Well, I know he won't. But If enough fans will stop and go to the games, then maybe someone (the board) will understand. Surely they can't ignore all the bad publicity, can they?

Or maybe they can.

But one thing is clear, since Walker, no manager has been so hated and for a good reason, not even Smith.

He may be on offer at 16/1 but there is probably only LVG and the Norwich guy more likely to get the chop.

There is no strong mentality in this team, starting from the Management, that's always been our downfall and why we never get results when it matters. The last 2 years have been a joke.

Pie in the sky stuff. Refusing to face reality. We aren't as bad as some on here think, but we're nowhere near to where we should be.

So it must be if we gain 2 or 3 places we must be over achieving.

So 12 is our goal for this season.

Yet he took a lot of people in, simply because they didn't do thier homework on him, including BK who should of known better.

It was a lazy appointment, let's hope are get it right next time out.

If someone can show me a video or a press clipping to prove your statement then fine but until then, as far as I'm concerned it's just another urban myth.

As others have pointed out he did not say get us into champions league he said would get us in the championship league, so he is well on his way to keep his promise.

Let's be realistic. We are not Champions League material at the moment. We might have players that are up to that standard but Martinez cannot set a team up properly.

Most recent example is Wednesday. He plays Stones out of position and leave possibly the best right fullback on the bench. He's trying to be too clever. We are set up like Wigan but with better players.

The players won't say "Fuck it" as they know he will drop them next game.

The guy is a self promoting charlatan, in his eyes he is the greatest coach that's ever lived. Hes dogmatic and stubborn, only an idiot keeps putting their bollocks in the fire over and over.

Alas we have him till next season, I don't doubt it. Current board wont shell out compensation when a takeover could be on the horizon, why shell out and lose cash and the new board wont want to seem reckless or drastic so will hang on until the summer.

This season is a write-off and sadly it could cost us two or three of the best players to have played for us for a long long time.

FFS, wake up and smell the bullshit. We have won just 18 of the last 61 league games. That has nothing to do with luck.

It does not take 5 years to build a team. Leicester seem to have managed it in somewhat less than this mythical timescale. Anyone who thinks we are going in any direction other than backwards is frankly deluded.

The most ridiculous fecking post this season. Probably the most consistently performing player this season.

We seem to pride ourselves on TW as being sophisticated commentators but this demeans us. And before anybody says, I share your anger with where we are.

Below is an article I found written around the time he left Wigan and joined Everton; it's safe to say that the same article could be published should he leave Everton in the coming days but with just the names and the dates changed.

With Roberto Martinez set to decide today whether to stay at Wigan, Tom McDermott says they might be better off without a manager who took them backwards...

Since Roberto Martinez was appointed Wigan manager in 2009, his intelligence and personality has won him many admirers. What's not to like? What we have also found out is that the Spaniard is incredibly naive tactically and although his passing style might be pleasing on the eye (sometimes), ultimately it's failed him and the club.

During the build-up to their season-closing 2-2 draw against Aston Villa, Martinez said: "I know it can sound a bit stupid but I've never, ever thought about my situation yet."

With respect, Roberto, is it something that should be left for you to decide? Although Wigan had finally fell through the trapdoor with a 4-1 thrashing by Arsenal at the Emirates, there was an air of inevitability about it. The writing had been on the wall for about four years.

There has also been a bit of a myth surrounding Martinez for most of his time at the club. The myth is that Martinez is destined for a 'top' job and when such a vacancy is available he will be a resounding success. It's seen by some as a reward for his outstanding performance in his current role. Well, why not? He doesn't just look the part. He's won the FA Cup you know!

Martinez has a vision of how the game should be played, which started long before his successful spell in charge of Swansea City. But, as has been shown this season, it can only take you so far, and a parting of the ways might be more beneficial for Wigan than it is for Martinez.

It's hard not to cringe when Wigan chairman Dave Whelan talks about the "special" job Martinez has done at the DW Stadium. So it's probably worth looking at just how well he's performed.

Wigan spent eight years in the Premier League, with Martinez in charge for the last four. In 2009-10, they finished 16th with 36 points, winning nine games. In 2010-11 they finished 16th again, winning nine games. In 2011-12 season they improved to 15th, winning 11 matches. But they finished this season in 18th place conceding 73 goals and were relegated from the Premier League.

It's instructive to compare that period to Wigan's four pre-Martinez top-flight years. Having been promoted under Paul Jewell, they finished 2005-06 in 10th place, scoring 45 goals (more than they managed in three of Martinez's seasons) and winning 15 games on their way to 51 points despite the distraction of reaching the 2006 League Cup Final.

In 2006-07 they finished 17th on 38 points, staying up on goal difference, but still managed more points than in two Martinez seasons and more wins (10) than in three terms under the Spaniard. After a spell under Chris Hutchings they spent most of 2007-08 under Steve Bruce and finished 14th – again, higher than any Martinez season – and in his only full season Bruce took them to 11th place and a 45-point total including 12 wins. In many ways, it was their high-water mark, but Bruce left for Sunderland and Wigan turned to Martinez.

Statistically (as well as in divisions), Martinez's four-year reign took Wigan backwards. He managed 38 wins in four years: 158 points from 152 games, or 1.039 points per game. In the previous four years, they won 47 games and gathered 184 points, or 1.211 ppg. Before Martinez, Wigan averaged 0.99 goals scored per game and 1.36 conceded; under him, their goals scored rose to 1.09 but their goals conceded shot to 1.81 per game.

They finished his first season with a -42 goal difference: on average they were more than a goal per game behind their opponents. This tightened up in his second two years, and indeed the goals-scored column has risen every year under Martinez from 37 in 2009-10 to 47 this term. Sadly, Wigan have never failed to concede at least 60 goals per season under the Spaniard – more than in any of their previous four top-flight seasons.

Martinez's main problem is that his commitment to attacking football regularly leaves his side exposed at the back. He has tinkered with many a formation but favours either a back three or a 4-2-3-1, each giving his midfielders licence to roam and interchange. If given the time and space, it can work and they can hurt you.

But give a West Ham or a Stoke time to play their way and they will hurt you too. The difference is, Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis have found a way that works and that keeps them in the league. Martinez's way doesn't and at best enables them to hover just above safety. Just ask Blackburn fans about their club's decision to part company with Allardyce, who once complained that foreign managers get more respect than their English peers a viewpoint which might be treated with some sympathy by Jewell and Bruce.

The reign of Spain: mainly in vain?

Inevitably, people will raise this season's FA Cup success as a sign that Martinez has got it right. In the final against Manchester City and against Everton at Goodison Park in an earlier round, Martinez's side performed and performed very well. Quite rightly they received credit.

Over the years though in the Premier League, they have shown they are capable of beating sides in the top half of the division, in these kind of one-off games. Victories at Arsenal and at home to Manchester United during the 2011-12 campaign, spring to mind.

What wasn't quite as impressive during their FA Cup run were the wins against Bournemouth (after two attempts), Macclesfield, Huddersfield and Millwall. And you only have to look over the list of managers to have reached cup finals to realise that you aren't necessarily a great manager just because you've had a bespoke suit fitted.

The argument is that Wigan have overachieved for years, doing well to stay in the division at all, and that Martinez will be able to achieve more at a bigger club with better players. But what usually makes the better managers successful is their ability to adapt and know when to introduce a Plan B.

And that's where Martinez's second issue gets in the way. Besides rejigging his formation, he doesn't have a tactical Plan B and maybe he knew that when he chose to turn down first the Aston Villa job and then the Liverpool one.

It wouldn't be such a surprise to see Martinez take on another manager job in the Premier League this pre-season but time will probably tell that Wigan is his perfect match.

This clown has to be removed from the club before it's too late. I don't want to hear people saying "It's not the Everton way" – I want people to get really fucking angry with it and start letting the club know just how we feel. Starting Sunday and then continuing Wednesday until the message is pretty clear.

Sean, can't we get Howard to say "Fuck it"?

He's taking us backwards and there is NOTHING in any of our performances for the last two seasons to suggest that is going to change AND his team at Wigan performed exactly the same way.

He needs to go!!!

The most common response when someone gives it "hey c'mon guys, enough, mmmkaay" is usually along the lines of 'who made you head fucking prefect?' but today might be different.

By the way, if it talks like a crackpot..

"The plan has been somewhat side-lined, I agree. But we have the core strength to emerge respected by those who mistakenly consider themselves opponents. We will prevail, trust me!"

You may remain "amazed beyond belief" (if that's even possible) but luck does turn, even for the "deluded". That's what generally puts an end to these bad runs.

Until the second half of last season, Leicester could not buy a win, but (and here's the thing) everyone who had beaten them knew they had been in a game, they were nobody's pushover and anyone who was following there fortunes KNEW that at some point they would start to get the results their performances warranted. I'm stunned by Leicester this season, but I wasn't in the least bit surprised that their results improved dramatically and they comfortable beat the drop.

If Everton's results don't improve dramatically I'll... I'll... I'll go to the foot of our stairs.

I'll be in the bookies tomorrow inquiring about accumulative odds of Everton stringing together a run. I will also be on here to face the ridicule if I'm proved to be "deluded"... I doubt very much that you will do either.

You may be "amazed beyond belief", but you wont be in the bookies tomorrow backing us to go down and you will be hoping that your posts are forgotten if indeed it turns out that YOU were the deluded one.

I'm not blind to Martinez's flaws. I've been pointing them out for long enough, but I've seen enough recently to believe we will see a marked improvement in results in the very near future.

I could of course be wrong, but does that make me "deluded"? I guess it probably does if you are the sort of guy who can be "amazed beyond belief".

At the risk of assigning myself the role of deputy prefect, I agree to some extent with Brent.

The quest to display the most outrage is a bit silly. This set of 150+ comments, for example, contains little of any substance. You could post on it without having read it, which most probably did.

That said, it's not my playground. Just saying that I enjoy reading opinions from my fellow blues and they're getting harder to find.

However he does say some things that make him either deluded or a liar... or just a man trying to cover his own arse.

If he genuinely thinks we are not underachieving then he fits into at least one of the categories above.

Martinez knows a thing or two about hyperbole. I'm sure he understands that it works both ways.

We thought he said 'Champions League' - but how silly we've been.

Listen closely: what he actually said was 'Championship'!

Stop trying to make out that people are over-reacting. People are angry, they have every right to be, results must improve and quickly. If they don't, you think it's bad now.

Allegedly, as one fellow director turned round and said, "You''ll be next". Walter Smith was sacked the following week. The venom, fume, toxic atmosphere, whatever you want to call it are here to stay, unless fans start to see progress.

So please spare us, your put downs and disparaging remarks, there's probably not one Evertonian out there who wouldn't be prepared to be proved wrong. As Colin said earlier, we're a faithful bunch, but please don't mistake us for idiots.

If most fans can see the flaws in our play, then why can't the players? The players are professional individuals, not robots, so why can't they play the game to their strengths, ignore the tactics that the manager sets out, and get the job done – win ugly? Martinez can't drop the whole team if they want to play it their way.

Of course it will never happen as that would be seen as mutiny, and we have nice blokes playing for us.

I hope we avoid relegation and I hope we can go on to win the FA Cup. The reality is though, I think, going on the facts and past history of the manager, we will have a very underachieving last half of the season.

While discussing the dilemma that is RM, my friend asked if things turn around, would I be OK to keep RM. I said yes (similar to me judging OFM by results first then style if he comes back per bookmakers say), but that would have to be a streak similar if not better than what Leicester did, and it needs to start now. I can foresee him sacrificing league games for the much desired FA Cup and we don't want that if we're fighting to stave off relegation.

Put up a long winning streak, beef up that defence, then RM can start talking again. Anything he says now is just fluff and smokescreen, much like LVG's theoretical lecture, Mou's denial, SAF and AW spit spat.

Here are the bad points:-< br>
1. Machiavellian tendencies – Eto'o.

2. Bears a grudge – Distin.

3. Inconsistent – Contradicts himself.

4.Favoritism – Howard.

5. Fantasist – Champions League.

6. Technically suspect with bad team selections and game planning.

7. Opportunist – Walked out on Wigan when largely responsible for their relegation.

8.Two faced – Howard / Distin.

9. Cronyism – Shuffling of the backroom staff

10. Misplaced values – Poor training regimes

11. Over-elaboration

On balance? Not right for Everton.

It's fuckin sad when you're watching golf instead of your team.

As many have said already, the man's deluded; however, it is said that there is a very fine line between genius and madness.

I would back Roberto Martinez to the hilt, if he would just turn round and show me.... ya' know what, I'm going to stop the management speak, let's get a defensive coach in, let's show these feckers we mean business. When a decision goes against us, I want you all round the referee complaining, in his face. Feck the FA, Feck the League.' Cause if it doesn't go your way now. Next time it will. That's the way I used to play, make the Ref second guess. Great teams don't rely on good fortune.

I don't see that under our current manager, what I do see is players being told they are better than they are, without the performances to back it up. In my opinion, he's never going to cut it as a premier league manager. Primarily because he's easy feed, I admire his principles however, just like every manager in the premier league, I'd wanna play Everton every week. But fair play to you Ernie, if you think we're gonna be top 4 or title contenders in 2 years time, I hope your right. But don't be surprised if us ol' bastards like me, tell you're dead wrong.

However, there are a lot of clubs saying the same thing and usually we don't have the likes of Leicester, West Ham, Watford, Stoke etc sitting in the top ten. Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea – they are all underachieving too. In fact, the only teams really doing what is expected of them is Arsenal, Tottenham and Man City!

Times are changing, for the better of the Premier League, but perhaps not for Everton as we have now have more competition than ever for those top 6 spots.

Martinez was clearly embarrassed when soft lad made the statement "He has promised us Champions League". Another spin from Kenwright.

Andy Walker, in response to your question in post #180, if Uncle Bill told me 2 + 2 = 4, I would check it on a calculator.

I think Bill is seriously ill and unlikely to be up to finding a replacement. Best thing will be a takeover. Under new ownership, Martinez and crew will be ejected so fast he'll leave his brown shoes behind.

I hope whoever replaces Bobby (and I have no names in mind) has a shade more pragmatism. All the great managers have let their teams attack but they knew when it was time to play smart.

I truly fear for this great club under Martinez's stewardship. We're in a downward spiral and I see no effort to stop it. So, so disillusioned.

I would love to agree with you Darren, and I obviously hope you win brewsties, but after what I witnessed the other night, then long term I want him gone.

Best thing about your posts to me though Darren, is it's never personal, (unless your dealing with idiots) and the one thing that shines through is you just love Everton.

Good point about Leicester, and I hope you're right, but they work so much harder for each other than we do. Maybe a clever new manager might see this, if indeed Martinez doesn't improve.

Can he change, is he willing to? Don't hold up much hope.

The only birthday present I really want is the news that Martinez is no longer our manager. His refusal to change or adapt his failing tactics, his perpetual selection of his obvious favourites, continued failure to admit thing are going wrong in defence or doing anything to sort it out, baffling substitutions, when he can be bothered to make them before the 80th minute, and inane ramblings such as this latest outburst about underachieving, his,refusal to replace Naismith who shouldn't have been sold in the first place, adds up to a pretty impressive litany of reasons to get rid of this amateurish, inadequate failure. Managers like Harry Catterick and Howard Kendall must be turning in their graves. They were REAL managers who put the team and the club before 'philosophy' or personal favourites.

I well remember the 1966 FA Cup Final, when Catterick shocked everyone by leaving fans favourite out of the team for the final, instead selecting Mike Trebilcock (pronounced Trebilco) for those who don't know him. Trebilcock was in effect a reserve who's recently joined us from Plymouth, and oddly reminded me of Steven Naismith. Catterick simply said Pickering wasn't fit enough and that was that.

There were no subs in those days so the manager had to stand by his team selection for 90 minutes. Of course Mike Trebilcock wrote himself into Everton folklore by scoring twice to bring us level after Sheffield Wednesday took a two goal lead, before Derek Temple scored the winner. Could you imagine Martinez having the courage to do something like that? I think not.

I look at the team sheet and like many others believe we have the best squad that has been at Goodison since the '80s. We are being out performed by teams that would dream of a line-up like ours. Managers like Koeman, Sanchez Flores, Ranieri, Pochetino, Bilic and even Pardew and Hughes understand that you have to get results and are making Martinez look inept.

This season was a chance to shine – Chelsea imploded, both Manc clubs are under performing, RS have been poor. Only Arsenal and Spurs have been playing to their true potential. Leicester, Watford, Stoke, West Ham, Palace and Southampton have grabbed their chance and we by all accounts are not (according to our manager) under performing! Martinez is right and the thousands of supporters, TV pundits and journalists are wrong...

Delusional, arrogant and insulting to the fans and that alone makes him unfit to manage this great club. We have had some poor managers in the past but they had the honesty and temerity to know when it was gong wrong and did not insult the fan base with drivel. That alone is enough without his obvious lack of tactical nouse.

There is an element of delusion if Martinez claims to the press that we are not underachieving as either (1) he believes we are nothing more than lower mid-table, which would be delusional his part; or (2) he thinks this is a transient phase.

Again, an element of delusion on his part since the team's problems are deep seated, as we are consistently poor defensively, lacking in stamina and unable to beat teams which set up to stifle our attacking threat (ie the majority).

I keep going on about it, but the decision to bring on Kone, was possibly the worst sub, I have ever seen watching Everton, and if the players don't tell the manager that he totally fucked up, then he won't have to change anything.

Bobby Robson nearly took England to a World Cup final, but he only changed during that tournament because the players told him he had to.

Let's see how much the players care now.

If you remember we were being battered before Kone came on. I'm no fan of his but those subs stopped the tide, albeit only temporarily.

The whole City game in general wasn't too bad. When judging RM we need to look at the bigger picture...and that is very damning.

1. This is not a 'new' team, we've had continuity of players more than pretty much any club in the league with a core reaching back 4-5 seasons at least and Martinex players 2-3.

2. Due to our performance this season this team will not be together next year. There's literally no chance Lukaku and Stones will sit through another transfer window without trophies or Europe or even any realistic belief we are on the verge of progress.

3. Even if those players do stay, there's going to be a whole host that need replacing. Howard is pretty much done, Osman, Barry and Pienaar are on their last legs, Baines and Jags will likely drop off. Yes we have some youth talent, but we'll need to bring in a whole lot more.

4. Also, exactly how great is our squad really. Up front we have one top class striker and then Kone. We have 2 good wingers (Del + Mirallas) and then McGeady, Lennon and Oviedo. If Barkley goes who's the creative attacking midfielder Cleverly? Left back we have depth admittedly, but not on the other side. Generally I can see a summer where we get a ton of cash, lose a couple of stars, see old players let go and end up shipping in a lot of dross because who will want to come and play for a mid-table at best team with a mental manager.

5. We're NOT closing in on the top 4, we are in every demonstrable way going backwards. Martinez inherited a side from Moyes that would challenge for the top 6 pretty much every season and had actually secured one top 4 slot. In his first year we seemed to go a step forwards, securing 5th and a highest points total. Last year we slipped to 11th (and only that was secured by a great last run of games), this year we're 12th and on a terrible run of form at precisely the time we were told we'd hit our stride. The only reason we probably won't end up in a relegation battle is the number of truly woeful sides below us.

6. We are unable to deliver an even performance in a single game. Usually it's great first half followed by dour second half. This suggests a fundamental problem either in tactics (i.e. opposing managers out-think us by adjusting), fitness (i.e. we fade badly) or motivation (i.e. whatever is said at half time actively contributes to a poor performance). Personally I think it's a but if all 3.

7. This is the most open league in living memory and teams like Spurs, West Ham, Leicester and even Watford are managing to seize the opportunity to progress.
We can't defend for toffee, we lack players with big-game winning mentality who fold when the chips are down, we have a decent first team but a weak squad behind it and our manager makes crazy subs and is continually out-thought tactically and who ultimately believes the style of football and ideology matters more than the results.

Ultimately Robbie may be 'the first one' who believes there's success lying at the end of this approach, but he's also pretty much the only one to believe it. As I've said many times I think he's a step backward from Moyes and has destroyed much of the good work DM put in place. We can't bring Davey back (never works going back) but we must be able to find someone better than this.

I am, like you seem to be, optimist rather than deluded and I continue to struggle to really believe that with the squad we have and with the GOOD things that RM has done we are not on the cusp #150; I have said it before.

I also said earlier on this thread that who can say we are not about to 'do a Leicester'. I am also surprised at their consistency this season and expected them to go int free-fall from the back end of last year when their fixtures were (on paper) looking tougher.

Sure they have changed managers and Ranieri was a canny appointment but I do not accept that ditching RM at this point will have that same desired effect. I do not expect us to get into a serious survival fight this year and think that RM should at least see the season out unless a serious heavyweight contender comes into the frame. And by that I mean a Jose or even Rafa. One name I never see mentioned is Julen Lopetegui #150; consistently over 2 points per match average, most recently with Porto.

Sure I recognise the BAD, and particularly the catastrophe that our defence has become but for the most part it is the same defence that was the backbone of the recent 'fortress' years. And I only see Funes Mori as an improvement to that.

I have also said before that a high calibre sports psychologist vis a vis Steve Peters. Read this link ad read EFC into it...

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/gbcyclingteam/article/gbr20120301-gb-cyclingteam-news-Managing-the-chimp---Interview--Great-Britain-Cycling-Team-Psychiatrist-Steve-Peters-0

Perhaps that's what we need more than a new manager. And someone to sort the defence out.

"He makes as much sense as a bottle of crisps."

Like all desperate men, he's starting to go on the defensive but, unfortunately for Bobby, his record is all but laid bare for everyone to see and scrutinise.

I will be honest and say that I loved listening to Martinez when he first join us as I thought it made a refreshing change to have a Manager that was not only an ex-footballer but someone who was very intellectually sound, so believed that the two combined could make for a very astute Manager.

However, he has used this astuteness to his advantage many many times when having to talk his way out of bad performances. It's taken a long time for the media to see through his articulate use of language and making things seem a lot rosier than they really are, but his incapabilities / inabilities / politician answers are starting to become repetitive and more obvious to the so-called lay-people out there.

He must be shown the door rapidly, in my opinion his was always a lazy appointment by a man who can wax just as lyrically but, as most, I was willing to give him the opportunity to prove me wrong. For me the Jelavic sale was enough, at the time our only 1st team permanent striker was allowed to leave for his own benefit and not ours with no sign of a replacement, sound familiar? I'd still rather have him on the bench than Kone...

Is this "Everton don't sack managers" a new myth? In my 38 years of standing & sitting in Goodison I can only think of two who haven't been given their marching orders or left by "mutual consent".

Howard Mk I and Moyes.

I'm married to a Consultant and believe me mate, you wouldn't give half of her colleagues houseroom. They do have a few things in common though, no common sense, a one-dimensional mind and arrogance...

Eugene (#164) #150; sorry for sounding like the proverbial head prefect! Sat here this morning in my short pants and head prefect's cap, waiting for the flak... think I'll get changed and hand over to Ernie (#169)

(Ernie, you've been promoted).

My point is that Martinez being able to achieve a Bachelor's degree in Physiotherapy means we should not be surprised that he has the intelligence to hoodwink us the fans and the media by his choice of vocabulary that can rose the darkest of situations.

When he first took over as Manager and conducted his first pre-match conference and lavishly sprayed out words like "phenomenal" "Incredible" "unique" "special" "exceptional" "outstanding" "know how". In all honesty, I was blown away, as not only were he telling Everton fans that we were going to be in the Champions League but he associated these articulate words with my team.

This interview was 17 minutes long. This had also come at a time that we had been used to a David Moyes pre-match press conference lasting no more than 5-6 minutes and always looked like he never really wanted to be there.

2.5 years on and Martinez is still cranking out the 14-17 minute press conferences of what we now know to be utter drivel and flannel. Even the so-called lay people are coming round to this and for me there is no way back.

"Like all desperate men he's starting to go on the defensive..."

Shame his team can't do likewise when required.

Surely if we are gearing for greatness in the future it will be with the same players that are currently being moulded in his likeness to achieve said ambition.

"What happens when they all fuck off this Summer, and we then have to start again Boss?"

Regarding strategy, I think some of us may be missing the point. Roberto's is to hang on to our best players and it's working perfectly. No-one will want any of them soon. It's sheer genius!!!

Liverpool sacked both Brenda and Fatboy for achieving more than this idiot yet we belittle both managers.

Any other club and he would be well out of here.

If he wanted us to get hold of the ball, why not bring Lukaku off and keep our shape the same way?

Gerry was tired again, but at least with PACE on the pitch, we would have still been able to play on the counter, which is something we were doing quite well.

We have a centre-half, playing fullback, and the minute we put on Kone to push up alongside Lukaku, we left him exposed to Sterling's pace.

City score again, we panicked because we had no pace in which to get after them anymore and a big hole down our right for them to exploit.

So if you think that was an over reaction, Phil, I'm surprised, because our manager completely broke something that didn't need fixing. It was an ill-thought-out ploy, and the only sad thing left to say was who wasn't surprised that it never back fired?

Phil, there is an old saying in football when teams are under the cosh, and the saying is "KEEP YOUR SHAPE". Martinez completely destroyed ours the other night when he decided to bring on Kone.

Osman bossing the midfield in the last game?? Stones and Howard dictating play from the back?? Baines's pinpoint corners? The impact of the non-playing Mirallas. Time you saw Mr Klopps optometrist cos you need flippin' glasses!!!!!

And he should have started with Coleman – even if it meant dropping Stones.

Our defending, Martinez's post match interviews and league position. The only pundit willing to tell it the way it is!

I can now cancel my appointment with the psychologist. It's not my imagination!! Thanks Paul!!

http://www.blueheartbluesoul.com/video-paul-merson-goes-on-beautifully-entertaining-rant-about-john-stones-and-Roberto-Martinez.html

Loved every minute of it and everything said bang on the button. Brill!!

But whatever, he did what Harry Catterick wanted when he left the favourite Fred Pickering out of the team as you correctly stated and we won the Cup! Mr Catterick had no favourites, pity this fellah now didn't.

Your comment about keeping the shape is, alongside the lack of deadball training, fitness training, defensive training, another failure in RM's philosophy.

Whenever something unexpected happens and the last 30 minutes of every game, our formation goes haywire – with massive holes in the middle of the park, fullbacks playing ahead of the wingers and Lukaku in an offside position. There is no discipline whatsoever.

I can't stand EFC being the butt of jokes, particularly with that bigoted, smug knob Thompson sitting there.

It illustrates a shift in the media though. Only a few weeks ago they were waxing lyrical about our football (usually in a game we did not win). I hated that as well. Who cares about pleasing the neutrals or pundits?

Looks like RM is being well and truly found out, something many of us on here have known for some time (at least a year in my case after that WBA home draw last January).

(By the way, the current TW poll shows approximately 75% want RM out of the door. I think a similar poll was conducted some months ago. It would be interesting to compare the trend in opinion. Also, can only those who are registered on TW vote? I mention this because judging by the written posts, it's hard to find 25% who seem to support him.)

REALLY!!

Not when half of the buggers leave in the summer due to us finishing the season with nothing again.

How can he seriously kid us into believing that we're progressing? We're potentially facing back to back bottom half finishes. That is not progression, that is regression and we're going backwards.

We should be expecting to beat Carlisle comfortably tomorrow. If we lose he's finished in my view. Then it's Newcastle on Wednesday. A massive game. Must win.

And Mike @ 240, loosen up, wilyus! We've moaned for years that the Sky mob ignore us and when they don't, you moan. If we can't smile at our own misfortune, we are truly doomed!

I have been angry at past managers, frustrated, outraged but Martinez is the first that I have ever been ashamed of.

Anyway, the rest of my post stands regardless of your bizarre nitpicking.

That's what's so infuriating: RM actually has much to commend him in my view with some of his recruitment and in his aim to develop our youth and in his overall manner which I thought was properly Evertonian when he arrived and for most of his first season.

Alas, time has shown that he just can't manage the first team competently; a rather fundamental deficiency of course.

Did you know my Dad, Jack Hazlewood?

The best ones develop such an understanding of the game that it seems like they have a sort of telepathy to know what is going to happen next, Bobby Moore & Paul McGrath being two outstanding examples. RM will never grasp the importance of this; instead, he talks up John Stones as being the new Beckenbauer & this young man believes it.

He's a bad influence on him – Paul Merson called it absolutely right today on Soccer Saturday, watch it!

http://www.blueheartbluesoul.com/video-paul-merson-goes-on-beautifully-entertaining-rant-about-john-stones-and-Roberto-Martinez.html

I’m not talking "bullshit". You’re getting confused with "realism". No great team was ever built overnight. The Man Utd teams of Ferguson, the Liverpool teams of Shankly et al, and I would include the Everton teams of Catterick and Kendall, all took time and patience.

Certain teams like Chelsea and Man City have had billions poured into them ensuring progress (although Chelsea have blown it this season).

But they are not great teams. Nor will they ever be. They should have been up there with Barcelona and Real Madrid for years now. And they will never reach that level because they have no infrastructure of youth development.

Mark Anderson.
You call this a "debate"! Actually it’s an elongated diatribe, reminiscent of the vitriol thrown at Moyes in the last 2 years of his tenure, and even more so for up to a year after he left. Plus ça change.

Hope to see you all at Carlisle.

Some of us (it's probably the vast majority outside of internet personalities) would rather discuss individual points rather than just shout 'lunatic'/'madman' etc. Imagine talking in the pub with someone like that?

For me, it couldn't be further from the truth anyway. I didn't want him from the start. Early on, I figured one of his first jobs was to regenerate our defence – a task for which he has zero credibility. In fact at that point, his defensive reinforcements were Robles and Alcaraz.

I've even posted on this thread that, while I agree these players will improve, I've no confidence Martinez will.

I'll give him credit for the fact we have some good young players running around in blue. Some of them are going to have great careers and will thank Roberto for their opportunities. But I don't believe he'll ever get the best results from them and the evidence for that is what we are seeing right now. This team is under-performing... while Roberto continues to promise us jam tomorrow.

He sees hitting the woodwork 4 times against Norwich as an example of one of those negative things that sometimes happen in life – not an example of under-achieving. I can understand that.

He sees an extensive run of those negative things, related to decisions by referees, as worthy of discussion with Mike Riley, possibly to draw attention to the use of goal-line technology across the full width of the pitch. I can understand that too.

He sees Howard as his No 1 goalkeeper. I used to be able to understand that.

He sees Everton as a long term game plan to recover their self confidence after being hammered into an inferiority complex by a history of failing against the big clubs, most notably the Redshites. I really understand that.

He believes we will achieve it but only his way, by 'suffering and taking the medicine'... I can understand that.

The amount of self-belief, "arrogance" if you will, to follow that route is phenomenal, but I can understand that.

For a football club to invest that much unchecked power in the manager is incredible. I cannot understand that at all.

No vote of confidence, the silence from the board, deafening, hands being washed. Maybe they're just waiting for the takeover. Me too, I've been waiting a long, long time.

But Coaches don't get the sack for not playing entertaining football, they get the sack for not winning enough games.

But Coaches don't get the sack for not playing entertaining football, they get the sack for not winning enough games.