Martinez feels hard done by with Hammers defeat

You didn't learn last season against West Ham in the cup when we were 2-1 up away with 10 men that we HAD to CLOSE out the game and despite 4 or 5 similar occasions this season (Chelsea, Bournemouth, Stoke etc). YOU STILL HAVEN'T LEARNT!!!!

Teach the darn team to defend. To be nasty. To run ball into the corners. To time waste. To grab a shirt. To take a yellow. To break up play. To do all the ugly things that you dismiss but are vitally important to secure a damn win.

Idiot!!!

You either don't get the best out of the players or you don't have the right tactics. That's two seasons in a row; same problems – no improvement.

But to lose a game from yet another winning position by conceding three goals in the final 12 minutes is unacceptable. To do it consistently to the point that at two nil up, at home, he can blame a missed penalty for us not winning the game is not only bizarre but completely unique.

Can we blame Martinez? His subs were naïve but does he actually tell the team to stop playing at 2-0? How does this keep happening?

I agreed with taking off Stones for Besic. For once I actually thought you displayed some tactical nous and then you went back to form.....

When you need to hold on to a lead, you take off EFC's best player Lennon for a striker who is unfit and has no premier league experience. Then when we need a goal you take off Lukaku for Barry.

You really haven't a tactical bone in your body lad. Gus Hiddink will totally outwit you next week. And I for one would appoint him next season to manage my beloved blues.

You need to take your phenomenal tactical skills back to Wigan or Swansea or anywhere who will have you.

By the way I was proud of the players today, lions led by a donkey. Jags, will you man up and actually act like a captain. Get in the referees face instead of looking away like you did when Mirallas was sent off and this is not the first time you have not supported your colleagues.......

At 2-0 with 12 minutes left the game is over you buffoon, yes it was a bad pen from Lukaku but he otherwise had a strong game supported by the outstanding Aaron Lennon who's quickly making a claim for player of the season despite only regularly featuring since January.

The substitution to swap Lennon with Niasse rather than the like for like Deulofeu was utterly baffling.

Today is not a one off, it is quickly becoming a trademark of Everton Football Club under Martinez.

Opponents know they are always going to have a chance against us no matter how many goals they are behind or how long is left, you just sensed once West Ham got the first goal we literally shit ourselves and they could smell it.

We are such a soft touch.

I was hardly Moyes biggest fan, but this home record would never have been allowed under him, four home wins by April, FOUR!!!

And we only won 7 from 19 last season too.

Something isn't right!!!!!

Whether its your phenomenal bad luck, poor refereeing or the player's mistakes, the buck stops with you.

The best thing you could do to mark your reign is to resign. After all the gut wrenching collapses you have overseen, an immediate resignation would allow you to hand over this squad to someone who is more competent. You may even be remembered as the man who assembled a good squad which was bequethed to your successor who would go on to fulfill the squad's potential.

Lennon was giving Oviedo cover down the left hand side. Once he went off it totally handed the initiative to West Ham. It's not like we were two down and chasing the game. West Ham had been no threat at all, despite having the extra man. All we had to do was crowd out the midfield, but no, put an extra forward on. WHY?!?!

Martinez says the turning point was the penalty miss. Was it fuck... it was that pathetic substitution.

And why change the team, just to accommodate Stones? Stones was awful in the first half, and the substitution at half-time to replace him with Besic I could understand. No need to play Stones for playing sake. I don't give a fuck if he goes the Euros or not. I don't care about England, only Everton, and at the moment Stones is becoming too much of a liability.

I have always defended Martinez these past few months, but I think it's finally a time for him to go. The man clearly doesn't know how to defend, and as I said at the start, his substitutions are totally beyond belief. Today was the final nail in the coffin for me.

The 7th home defeat of the season.

Nuff said.

Taking Lennon off was lunatic. Putting a half-fit Niasse on was weird.

My God, Eugene, it is so hard to predict that it is now easy to predict. Just visualize every possible outcome and leave out the unthinkable. Then the unthinkable will happen and in hindsight it will have seemed perfectly obvious.

I doubt that another club in the land can produce this soul-destroying witchcraft.

Jags is like a lamb good defender but not a leader McCarthy the same they need to start acting like winners not just accept this piss weak approach. I can remember standing in the street end hearing Big Nev shouting from the other end of the pitch, get a grip lads and stand up.

Get rid of this nice man who talks absolute shite and put Duncan in charge till the end of the season. If not we will come to the last game of the season and Martinez will be saying there's one game to go and we can push on for that 12th place .

The ref didn't help today tho. Mirallas should never have been sent off, and two penalty appeals in the first half turned down is a joke.

We have only beaten a dreadful Newcastle twice, Aston Villa twice, Sunderland and Stoke away...

That's it!

We have barely registered a good win against a worthwhile opponent since September.

We have a truly horrendous record in the league with the quality this team possesses, it's a total waste of a season, with a manager that had more nous we could have been where Spurs or even Leicester are now.

Where do we go from here if or when Chelsea dump us out the Cup next Saturday?

Sit and wait another two weeks while our next league games are Arsenal and Manchester United??

As I said on the previous thread, if Moshiri really is the real deal, then the summer time he needs to show us what his true ambitions are for this club.

We cannot allow ourselves to stagnate in mediocrity for a third successive season.

God Almighty, man, the shock was the ridiculous idea of subbing a player who is on fire with a player who is clearly not match fit and not used to the pace of a Premier League game. This stupidity is compounded by taking off a striker who was having a decent game and subbing him with a man who was needed to shore up the midfield/defence about 20 minutes previously!

Under this master tactician, we are slowly but surely sinking into the relegation mire. I appreciate that this won't happen this season, but be assured that if this form continues, we will be in a similar situation to the Barcodes, or even worse, Villa, come this time next season.

Get rid of him NOW. He is killing our club.

The difference is the managers. They have a quality guy who knows how to get the best out of a group players; ours is a total joke. He doesn't know his left from his right.

I'm totally gutted with this result.

Battling away, against a top 6 team, and down to ten men, he decides to give Niasse, 15 minutes??????????

That has got to be the worst sub, I've ever witnessed in over 40 years, of going to Goodison. The midfielders needed help, so he swapped one for a forward!!!! Crazy.

Everton are no longer a threat to anyone any more. Martinez is ruining this club – just like he had ruined Wigan... and if Billy ain't careful, Everton will go the same way.

How much more misery can this club take?

He's had his go and it's time to say goodbye if you want to keep the fans happy.

This team reminds me of a slick boxer with fast hands and quick feet that doesn't have a chin. He beats his opponent up for 11 rounds and then gets knocked out in the 12th round EVERY fucking time he steps in the ring!

Wiganisation complete. Kenwright is a dickhead for appointing him and a dickhead for persisting with him. Professional football is about winning games. End of.

I'd swap him for Moyes today.

I agree that Martinez has to go at the end of the season. I can understand what he's "trying to do" but he's failing and isn't up to it. It's fine having a philosophy but, if you haven't got the smarts to succeed in it, then find your level.

Mirallas is an idiot. The first card may well not have been warranted but diving in in their third of the field is stupidity.

Stones isn't anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. He was poor today. Gave the ball away and put us under pressure through delaying and trying to be too clever.

Niasse was a mistake. Seen enough to know he's not very good.....

Last one, another weekend ruined.

Mirallas, 1st booking he dived! 2nd booking, clumsy challenge, but a yellow = red. However, we managed.

Two penalty appeals turned down by the ref! You may well be right, but that's not ref problem. They are excuses for a manager who cannot manage.

If Martinez could face reality, he would resign. If Bill Kenwright was not such a nice guy, he would sack him tomorrow! He doesn't need Farhad Moshiri to make the decision for him.

Goodbye Roberto, never wanted you in the first place!!!

Is there no-one around him to suggest this or is everyone keeping schtum, keeping their jobs and then telling us all he was clueless when he gets the bullet?

I can't say no more... I am just getting myself bloody depressed.

I agree with RM that Lukaku and Lennon had run out of steam. But surely you sub like with like... keep the shape!!!! Is that not common sense? We did not need a 3rd, ffs.

When Lennon went off... Payet moved from left to right side and had freedom of Goodison as Niasse was up front!!! No one on our left.

We were Brilliant upto the sub. Our manager let us down again. I would not trust him with the new money. I just saw his press conference... no reference on the poor subs – only to the penalty miss. The press give him such an easy time. Are the 38,000 at the game wrong? I think not...

RM is deluded. RM out.... quickly

I just want Martinez gone. Hopelessly out of his depth.

Why the fuck is Rom taking the pens anyway?

To pick our a single individual like that in order to deflect blame away from himself is a cowardly act by Roberto. Shameful. And our best player along with Lennon, both again on the score sheet.

He's ruined Stones, and now he'll piss off Rom.

He can pick a player for certain. Some of his signings are excellent. I also think he knows how to make a player believe in his own ability – another good management technique.

His teams are often setup well to attack, and he definitely knows how to score goals and hurt the opposition – another useful managerial trait.

He's a media darling, they lap him up. His patter is very good in a media sense, despite it all sounding like drivel to us.

His problems arise when it comes to actually managing the team during matches. Up until then I think he does a good job.

Sadly as soon as the heat is on during a game, he doesn't know what to do so he just does.....well.....he just does something.

Or in the case sometimes, as per Southampton away, he just stands there and does nothing – in the vain hope that things will come good. We lost 3-0 I think that day, although I don't actually remember the final score because most of us got up and left when Saints scored their 3rd and were all well on the way to the station by the final whistle.

Martinez is a good manager in many ways, but sadly he isn't a good manager when it comes to seeing what's going on during a game – I still think he could benefit hugely by watching from the stands. You can't see a fucking thing when you're in the dugout, and if you don't have that knowhow then you have to learn it by seeing things from a different perspective.

I'm clutching at straws here, which is basically what Martinez does during matches.

We have a great squad which is not fulfilling its current potential, all agreed, but to ditch Martinez now when his playing philosophy is right might be premature. If we win the cup, all will be forgotten; if we lose next week, we will be calling for his head.

The new owner has a major decision to make: stick with him and his philosophy could lead to a new era; sack him and bring in someone else – a big name... a big ego.

As Edward #35 says, if Lukaku and Lennon were flagging then go like for like, Niasse for Lukaku and Deulofeu for Lennon, and TELL Deulofeu, don't ask him, to track back and give Oviedo cover.

Yes, we made errors, again dithering on the ball instead of getting quick ball to a front three that really pushed on to the back four of West Ham. Basically we bossed it and they didn't have a clue. Cue the sending off.

Very harsh: ticking off, yes, foolish challenge and gave the cunt of a referee, with plenty of advice from Noble, a decision to make.

Second half, we adapted; great shout from Roberto to bring Besic on. He was superb, Macca and Ross got even better. Then the penalty.

Awful... you could feel the tension in the stands. Before that, the crowd were immense. From experience, you just knew we'd blown it to finish the game off.

I looked at Lennon off the ball: he was gone, he'd given everything. The substitution was next. We couldn't believe it. It had to be Barry with Besic and Macca going wide to support the wide areas in defence. With Ross behind Lukaku where possible.

We all know the rest. So the missed penalty opened the door for a grave error by Roberto. Please guys, let's not forget how brilliant the team was today; in the end, Roberto, you let us and them down.

The subbing of Lennon was suicidal. He had kept the Hammers defence occupied and his withdrawal basically invited them to attack us.

Martinez has no idea when it comes to game management. The time really has come for him to go. How much longer must the paying fans suffer as a result of his continuing ineptitude, his constant blaming of anything and everything apart from his own failings. Do the honourable thing and resign Martinez, NOW.

Roberto Martinez relegated and destroyed Wigan. That team with Pulis, big Sam or indeed my late gran, could have survived. He stated that he was not the man to rescue them (spineless and devoid of integrity) and then got the best job in football, on the basis of fucking what?

He cannot coach defending to save his life. He is ruining our great club and he has to go. Key players will look to leave at the end of the season.

Even winning the cup would not change my mind as far as he is concerned. I would love to be proved wrong but I doubt it.

Okay, we created another goal and were awarded a penalty after going to 10 men but we just don't learn our lesson and are incapable of seeing a game out.

Either sort it out or do one, Martinez, as this season is turning into a joke. I can only see one result against Chelsea in the FA Cup too.

As soon as Lennon left the pitch the whole game went arse up.

It's not a coincidence that Lennon came in last season and transformed our fortunes and raised the bar work ethic wise. This season has been the same, we have looked a tougher fitter team with the ever working Aaron Lennon on the pitch.

As soon as he was subbed it gave West Ham a huge lift especially after a few touches from an incredibly rusty looking Niasse.

I appreciate that Lennon was shot by the 70-minute mark but, if I had been in that dugout, I'd have brought on Deulofeu for him at that very minute then the only other change at that same time with a two goal lead should have been Barry for Barkley and see out the game.

Thanks for the rollercoaster Roberto but I'm fed up of feeling like shite!

I truly want to wake up tomorrow and read the headlines MARTINEZ SACKED.

If you do! When are you going to stop allowing Martinez to pontificate without challenge?

Nobody seems to challenge him!!!

Steve McClaren gets a full back page of criticism. When did you last see Martinez on the back page of a national? Answer, probably never!!!

Lennon would still run his arse off even when spent, but Ross (and I don't mean to make him the scapegoat for one second) doesn't do much defensively apart from stand in the way.

Fucking idiot. If it ain't broke, don't fucking fix it.

Can't agree over Ross, he gave it everything, at 2-2 he won a tackle he had no right to, got up and drove past two and attacked. He was superb.

For me the game changed when he took him off, and I don't think we have a single player in the squad who does what Lennon does.

He has to be dismissed without delay.

Barkley and a few other's could take note of Lennon's work rate and I think it was Baines last Spring that said Lennon's willingness to work and run had shamed the team.

He's the only attacking player that consistently runs himself into the ground, which is why when Lennon isn't on the pitch we don't defend well as a team from the front.

So gutted with that substitution. Even Baines at left-back with Oviedo in front would've worked.

Total let-down.

He should never have been appointed.
He is the worst coach in our history.
He will relegate us given time.
I would take anyone ahead of him.
He should be sacked immediately.

And like everyone else (bar Martinez) the Lennon substitution was bordering on surreal-2-0 up 15 minutes to go and bring on an attacker (a half-fit one at that) to see the game out!! It's a bad a sub I've seen since, erm... the West Brom game.

Please, Roberto, just walk, before the new guy sacks you.

Now, we have been here before. The death throes of a manager are hard to watch, we've seen it with Catterick and Lee, Walker and Smith. Unfortunately, it takes days like today for the harsh reality to dawn.

Surely the only thing that can save Sr Martinez is an FA Cup win. It is feasible he could oversee such a success, but it would be a very, very dangerous thing, as the man has the ego, stubbornness and ineptitutude to have us relegated.

I hope the new board will make a decision now to relieve Martinez of his duties at the end of the season, irrespective of what happens between now and then.

Sadly, the manager just is not good enough for this level. Not got a clue regarding closing a game out.

Our record at home this season is shocking beyond belief. Dropping the prices for next season. I would pay an extra £250 if Martinez was gone. Big decisions for fans renewing is with Martinez in charge means the same.

The man talks complete crap and the excuses are boring and predictable. This season has been what could have been and without Lukaku we would have been in real trouble.

Ian I quite agree. However, the press never seem to give Martinez a hard time!

He goes unchallenged and as such believes his own delusional philosophy.

Martinez did well today but Rom missed. Shit happens.

Just heartbroken yet again, the lads played so well and we were still the better team with 10 men till the genius made his tactical masterstroke.

Roberto says that for 78 minutes of today's game we deserved to win, I don't agree, but even if he's correct the game of association football has always lasted for 90 minutes so it doesn't matter how much on top a team is or how many goals in front they are if they don't or can't play for 90 minutes they are doomed to failure. Only Crystal Palace and Aston Villa have lost more home matches than Everton and even Newcastle United have taken more points at home than have Everton. There is so much to admire in this team and so much talent available to it, but that simple ingredient that Everton used to have in abundance and one that Leicester City typify is missing and the reason that it's missing is because of the way that our current manager insists his teams play, from hard grafting safety first football for eleven years to chilled out but ultimately kamikaze football for the last 18 months for us mere fans it is difficult to understand.

If the new investors have any sense they will keep Mr Martinez well away from their transfer war-chest because looking at Niasse, Roberto, might be as profligate with the cash as his teams are in attack and defence.

Those who have attended all of Everton's 28 Premier League games this season have witnessed 90 goals unfortunately 39 of those have ended up in the Everton net. Thank God our away record is decent, otherwise we could have been in real trouble – when Everton lose at home to Swansea City and West Ham – traditionally home bankers regardless of form or players on show – in the same season the manager should come under scrutiny and hopefully the new investors will take a good hard look at his position if not now then at the end of the season – otherwise we might have to go through the whole situation again next term, but this time after having spent real money and all of the high hopes that we had this time last week will have fallen away quicker than a two goal lead at home to West Ham.

After this capitulation, where on 70 mins we were two-nil up having just missed a penalty for three-nil and then I watched my pessimistic worst fears come true with 3 goals bring let in; I find myself coming to the conclusion that perhaps RM really can't take us any further. This kind of inability to close out games is just not acceptable and it can't go on. It cannot just be bad luck if it keeps happening.

I feel that the new owners might want to change st season end but they must make RM understand what needs to change for him to stay at the helm

For me, Ross was superb and adapted his game to suit his change of position.

The diamond shone brightly today.

So do us all a favour Roberto and go back to your own planet.

Also, Gus Hiddink for next manager was a good shout.

That may well be true, but Rom didn't put it away and even if he had have, who's to say it wouldn't have ended up 3-3 rather than 2-3?

There is a tangible lack of faith among many fans in this current Everton set-up and a real lack of belief amongst the players which shows itself in games like today, games which have happened more often than I can remember in my time of watching the Blues.

Also Lukaku's lack of focus for the penalty is a reflection of the team as a whole and therefore a reflection of the manager.

David, he is 22, he is showing no signs of any appetite to even try to defend. When I look at players like Lennon and Besic relishing all the work they do all over the pitch, it actually turns my stomach when I see Barkley just stroll around and let players just literally walk past him. He's got to do a lot more than he does; he's far from a diamond, he is plain glass when it comes to the defensive side of his game, but you are turning a blind eye to this part of his game.

Against that, 20 seconds before that period started he put in a superb volley on goal at the Park End, and in the 3 minutes after the 35 minute mark he made 5 very telling touches.

I'm not sure what that tells us. I think for me it suggests that there is a very good footballer within him, it just needs a bit of help to be brought out.

Barry was a strange sub, I agree. Rom missing a pen, well many a world class player has missed a pen, I really don't accept his state of mind was not what it should have been due to RM. Rom had been good up to that point. Just one of those things unfortunately.

The team have nothing about them and do not have a winners mentality, they do not possess the acumen, passion or intelligence to be winners because they are carrying out the managers monotonous "philosophy" where every player is the greatest in their position ever to lace up their boots and which also seemingly does not account for not having the ball, where everything is then left to chance.

How many more excuses has this fella got? Just fucking go will you.

I was also disappointed with Oviedo in defence. I need to see it again but he looked like he was getting out of the way of the ball when they were putting crosses in, instead of throwing himself in the way of them.

It's all been said before what his shortcoming are but he never seems to learn which is the most disappointing thing, what's that saying "only a fool keeps doing the same thinks and expects a different outcome".

Mirallas, first yellow was a dive and the second was definitely a sending off.

Lennon was most certainly tiring so I think RM did right to put on fresh legs. Should it have been Niasse? Well I know the feeling on here is a definite no. But did RM, put him on pacifically to get further ahead or was he thinking of his pace holding the ball up further up the pitch? Sort of like Marcus bent under Moyes?

And of course we should have had a definite pen at the other end.

I thought it was a very good game. Lennon and Lukaku played brilliant and I think the team gave their all.

Very disappointed with the final score of course, but for some on here to be wishing that we lose against Chelsea in cup, well you should hold your head in shame.

RM, is here for the long haul and I can't see him getting sacked. As for him having a big player kitty in the summer, I've no problem with that. I think he as done pretty good with the player's he as brought in so far.

Every club knows that if they go behind chances are they can get back in the game, so psychologically every side we come up against has the edge. He needs to go. We have a new owner who is supposedly ushering in the winds of change.

Well the first things that needs to change is we need a high profile manager with a proven reputation. Not someone coming off of getting fucking relegated.

As soon as we missed the pen we knew the writing was on the wall, to a certain extent I had sympathy for Mirallas his first yellow was out of order as he was fouled and clearly brought down outside the area, where a dive was pointless, it does not alter the fact that we just aren't good enough as long as RM is in charge.

Koeman is a winner first and foremost,played at the top level,instills discipline into his teams,talks a lot of sense when interviewed,tactically very astute.

Our current squad does not need major surgery, just a decent manager who can set up a defence,something RM is not capable of,buy wisely by strengthening in certain areas, goalkeeper being priority.

I have touched on a few very basic points here the same as any like minded Evertonian,yet after almost 3 seasons our football "phoney" has not learnt a bloody thing.

Take your wanky football "philosophy" to Swansea or Wigan Roberto,if not then become an MP!I'm sure the corridors of Westminster would welcome you with open arms as you can spout shite with the best of them!

Roberto Martinez is not fit to manage our great club called Everton.

He will leave this summer with a big bonus in his pocket from selling his shares with a ground that is falling to bits, Wigan, Roberto and broken leg Whelan have taken us for fools, never thought I would agree with Phil Walling ever, but have to eat humble pie, well done Phil.

Fucking shocking, replacing our hardest working attacker for a fucking striker when you're a man down and the game is won.

Idiot, needs to go.

With BK continuing to call the shots even a Cup exit and another lost derby will be ignored as the team continues to play to packed houses and ' the philosophy ' becomes even more infathomable.

Believe me, we're stuck with the bugger.

It nearly kicked off behind me in the Lower Gwladys today. But there is no defending RM. He hasn't a clue. To quote my Nan in Kirkdale who loved Jim Reeves "He'll have to go".

I hope tomorrow he is gone.

"It is a shame we could not win because up until the 78th minute we were well worth winning it."

To add to that, I watched the game live and couldn't believe how unorganized our defence was. I thought the team put in a shift and we played well in spells. Besic has proved he is our future captain and is everything missing with his tenacity and vision.

Like all Evertonians, I could take losing, especially when we give 100 percent, but it kills when we are giving away good leads with no time left, ie,12 minutes.

I watch the game but all the fans who travel many miles and time and expense... my heart bleeds with you and for you. Please keep hoping...

I think he means well, just like a mother means well when they knit you a jumper they want you to wear to school. Time we had a manager with some arrogance and some need to win, someone who will chastise when losing.

He is going to go eventually so he might as well do it now, I think. New money... and a new manager who knows what he is doing in defence and we will be fine.

Good players... bad manager.

I have tried to be kind to the young man, citing his hideous injury five, repeat, five years ago, but he is now approaching 23 years of age (Alan Ball was MotM in a World Cup Final, aged 21 by the way).

Up to now his scoring record is about six per season on average, albeit this season's haul has upped it to that unremarkable level. His "assist" record is similarly average across the seasons. His last "worldy" goal was well over a year ago. His last meaningful tackle is something I cannot remember.

In fact he has long since seemingly decided, with management support, that he needs never to make a tackle or a defensive contribution of any sort (Lukaku seems to have the same belief).

Maybe that's because he's still traumatised by that distant injury but, these days, as a professional footballer, how long can that be tolerated? Successful teams always have forwards who put a shift in defensively. They chase, harry and tackle on the periphery of the opposition's penalty area. We are hampered by ineptitude from the front when we concede possession.

Unfortunately I have news for Ross, and Rom, and others like Gerard Deleufeou who share their attitude (and that's why I have sympathy with Kevin Mirallas' on his sending off; at least he was trying to win the fucking ball back in their half!)

None of you are and never have been good enough to do fuck all in defending. You are at grave risk of soon squandering what only sometimes hints as a sublime talent as teams suss you out as wimps (Rom's goal today resulted only from him powering past a mere 18 year-old skinny rookie by the way). You Ross need to consult someone outside football if your head is still in a bad place as a result of "the Wisdom Tackle". The rest of the fabled youngsters need to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror and thereby hope to get real, because there's demonstrably no fucker in management giving them a clue. Aaron Lennon can show them the way though.

Sounds harsh I know, but it is meant to be positive for their and our benefit.

We have just spent days away in the sun to "bond" and whatever other bollocks Martinez fantasises about but we come back from the trip to a bog standard victory over a hopeless Villa and a massive capitulation on our own turf against the "mighty" West Ham, a team who for years we've had the hoodoo sign over.

So, The Incredible One; "What did you teach them in Dubai?"

Kill me... then more of Martinez's "philosophy"...

"Roberto says that for 78 minutes of today's game we deserved to win, I don't agree."

Of course we deserved to win at '78 with ten men bossing the game and hten it went, well Jags & Martinez pear-shaped.

Yes Rom should score a pen, although Aguero also missed today, plus Ronaldo and Messi both miss from time me to time.

Also Mirallas was a absolute clown to get sent off, that said, he had no baring on the eventual result.

Mirallas was stupid, but he had nothing to do with the simple fact that we were 2-0 up with less than 15 to play. For me this is when a half decent manager shows his metal, and yet again, like v Man City, like v Chelsea, Bournemouth and so on, our manager fucked it up.

Please please please Mr Chairman, do your job and sack Mr Martinez, as he's simply not good enough to take us forward.

I also thought that Besic was going to do a lap of honour when he got the penalty. It's clear that the squad has no belief in anything, it's a mentality issue and I don't think they can believe that they can win anything, a match never mind the FA Cup or anything else. They'll soon be celebrating winning the toss!

Everton, you need to man-up bigtime.

Instead he brings on an attacker that is way off the premier league pace and didn't really do a thing for us up top so we could also defend from the front! Like a lot have said before me, the bloke is incapable of changing things during a game to shut up shop and close a game out. He'd rather have us carry on trying to attack and leave ourselves wide open and vulnerable to attacks.

It's unacceptable. Against the teams that me and many others think we should be competing with up near the top and European places, we struggle and can't seem to beat. But it's a good job we can beat the teams currently around and below us or else we'd be in trouble. We've got a talented squad and vs the "lesser" teams their ability shines through and gets us the points even when we don't always play well, but against better teams, we crumble and can't seem to get the wins and a lot of that is down to Martinez. Yes, the players don't always cover themselves in glory but a lot of it is down to mismanagement!

Lose next week and we have nothing to play or fight for. Lose our next 2 prem games, which is more than possible, then we could be languishing down at 13th or 14th position depending on other results around us (Bournemouth currently in 14th and 3 points behind us!) and for a club and squad like ours, it is not good enough at all and IF we do lose all 3, we should sack him, let Big Dunc, Unsworth & Royle see the season out where in that period the "new" board can over look candidates, research them and get character references and take their time to find the right man to take us into a possible new era!

I know it's been said a lot but really, even after the missed penalty, who the hell brings a striker on with 10 men 2-0 up with 10 mins to go??? Martinez looking for glory, but glory came back and bit him on the arse.

For me, he's simply not good enough for Everton Football Club. This team with the players we have should have been looking at 3rd or 4th place this season at least. Just take a look at Leicester City with the right manager at the helm...

For me, there is only one reason that Everton are not up there with them... Stand up, Martinez, and do one.

I agree with you, but are you forgetting Alcaraz, Robles and McCarthy? We paid dearly for Championship players and a Championship manager... what the fuck were we expecting??

Now it will be Martinez who will be walking away with the bonus. Fortunately for Martinez, time is a great healer. We will soon forget this disaster like all the others... and, if we don't, the board definitely will.

Out of evil comes good as they say and always look on the bright side! At least we have the consolation of knowing (or guessing), that we will reach the magical 40 before Sunderland, Norwich, Newcastle and Villa!!!

Our players showed a phenomenal attitude and clearly demonstrated our philosophy with incredible awareness during an amazing moment in a game of such intensity with tactical awareness being crucial in big moments. I am incredibly proud of the supercalafragalisticexpialidotious blah blah blah blah.....

He should do them in Esperanto....They would make more sense.

Then yesterday at 2-2 he swapped Lukaku for Barry. Is the manager going out of his way to be different or is he just an idiot? Either way, he has no place at Everton any longer.

On the penalty, I feel there needs to be a rule change to knock this stuttering, shitty run-up out of the game. It's a complete wank.

You choose to ignore all the good things Ross brings to this Everton team, then have the audacity to say "I feel sympathy for Mirallas," – the mind boggles, it really does.

It's everyone's fault except mine because I'm a tactical genius and just because you ingrates don't see this doesn't mean it isn't true.

If Mirallas hadn't tried to cheat, then he wouldn't have been sent off, but Noble was also very instrumental – he sparked a spat when it looked like the "ref" (I use that term loosely) would let him off.

If Lukaku scores the penalty, West Ham would not have come back, although I thought there as a rule about advancing a couple of yards off the line – one pace forward is accepted but Adrian took a couple. Even though it was a shocking penalty.

If Lukaku scores the one-on-one, West Ham would not have come back. If Martinez had replaced Lennon with Barry, West Ham would not have come back. Lennon may have been flagging, but replacing him with Niasse was as bad a decision as I have ever seen an Everton manager make. Martinez's plan was to give him a run out, but doing it when we were down to 10 men while 2-0 up was insane.

We should have had two further penalties – clear holding at a corner in the first half and a clear arm ball in the second half (as shown on MotD). In my opinion, Anthony Taylor was a cheat yesterday, he had an agenda before Mirallas gave him an easy get out. There were numerous West Ham fouls unpunished by Taylor in the first half – it was very odd.

Martinez didn't react to Bilic playing three lumps up top... no stopping the crosses coming in left our guys under too much pressure.

He's got to go... had enough

Remove this man now.

The object is to score and there is nothing in the rule book that says you have to send the keeper a text message, as to how you are going to take it and where you are going to direct it, whether it be a side-foot poncy pass type, or a risk-taking Panenka. I am seeing more and pore poncy penalties.

Years ago, in my day, the goalkeeper had to be motionless until the ball was kicked. This gave the advantage to the kicker. Nowadays, I think the kicker has less of an advantsge as the goalkeeper is allowed to do star jumps, blow kisses, etc.

When I was a lad, I used to play against my mate Billy. He was a full back and took all the penalties. He would run with his head down and toe it as hard as he could. The result? A rocket straight between the 'jumpers'. We hated him for it, as it was most unstylish, but you would nearly have to catch the number 81 bus to fetch the ball back.

Who says forwards should be the only ones to take them? Come on Jags and Funes Mori, head down and run, there's no law against putting the keeper in the back of the net with the ball!!!

And he has form bringing the wrong substitutes on when Everton were in winning positions only to lose them. So he can't be trusted to get it right most of the time. Never in football history has one manager got it so badly wrong.

We were winning 2-0 when we were awarded the penalty and yep, we were still winning 2-0 when Lukaku fucked it up.

We had played almost 25 minutes holding a 2-0 lead so how can you say that "we lost because of the penalty miss"? We lost because we can't defend for fuck, we lost because we have a manager who is simply shite and I mean totally shite.

Finally, we lost because our back four have absolutely zero confidence when the opposition score a goal. After West Ham scored their first goal, I just sat back in my seat and prepared for the worst.

Lukaku must feel that he probably has to score about four goals a game to make the match "safe".

The manager must be a laughing stock among other managers.

Substituting Niasse was done because Lennon was legless. No wonder, when were down to 10 men after 35 mins.

That prick Mirallas lost us the game, he wants kicking out of the club quick. For all of you that were shouting for him to be in the side, that's why he's not been, he's just a selfish git.

Then, to make matters worse, Lukaku misses the bloody penalty, 3-0 down and West Ham would have thrown in the towel.

But even after that, we concede 3 goals in just over 10 mins, what's the defence and the other members of the team getting paid for? Are they getting criticism, I've not seen much up to now.

The team deserved praise for getting to close to the end when they were a player short for ⅔ of the match, they were knackered towards the end. Add to that we were not playing a bad side, have you seen their away record! Nevertheless, we should have won the game and at worst drawn it.

I think I've told you before Raymond, I admire and like 'contrarian.' However, it must be founded on some legitimate argument that offers a reasoned counter to the popular position.

You are renowned on TW for your stout defence of Martinez at all times. Indeed, as you do here, you frequently mock and rail at those critical of our manager.

So, forgive me, but in the words of Winston Churchill, you come across as "a fanatic who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

Instead of berating and bewailing at the growing number of posters expressing their concerns at the performances of the team and direction of the club under RM, enlighten everybody:

Offer an eloquent, coherent and plausible defence of Roberto which will convince others to switch to your camp.

I for one would be intrigued to hear it.

"Nevertheless, we should have won the game and at worst drawn it."

Players, coaches whatever – the buck stops with the manager and he is NOT LEARNING.

I want him gone; in my opinion, I think it is now so clear he simply is not good enough to take us forward.

Sorry, guys, I will reply to your points later, I have to go out very shortly. I'll get on to it when I get back.

It can only be faith not logic that keeps people supporting him in my opinion.

Just joshing, no offence.....

There is much to admire about him. But not enough.

For two decades we have settled for mediocrity and simply championed challenging the top 5 under Moyes as punching above our weight.

We all know full well that we will self destruct against Chelsea next Saturday because on big occasions that's what Everton Football Club does better than anyone.

If Moshiri coming in to this club wakes everyone out of their slumber and he can actually change the defeatist "heroic failure" mentality that has existed here too long then so be it.

Here's to the dawn of a new harder more ruthless Everton.

If, as you believe, it is down to the players, that we are incredibly unlucky, constantly victim to poor refereeing, then we have a bad squad and cursed luck.I think, though, that we have inadequate, arrogant coach.

I honestly do not believe that he would survive at another club. We must be a pleasure to play against, we are feared by no-one... nice Everton.

Like you said, our lack of ambition and the will to win comes from the very top and seeps right through the club.

If this Moshiri guy eventually turns up I'd expect him to call a general meeting of the squad, manager, back room staff and state in no uncertain terms that he wants and demands a winning team and anything less is unacceptable.

Only by raising the bar and demanding the highest standards possible will we be able to advance as a club so I expect a massive overhaul in the summer as the present set up simply doesn't work.

My point is though, they are now 6 points ahead of us, when we should really be miles ahead of them. Only one person to be blamed for that. FUCK OFF, MARTINEZ.

Bottom line though, for anyone seeking to absolve Roberto of blame, is that he takes ultimate responsibility as manager and this sort of thing happens far too often. We have had a chaotic season and chaos rarely leads to success.

How many 2-0 leads did we throw away in eleven years under Moyes? I can only think of one when we lost 2-4 at home to Man Utd, a team that went on win the league, and that with a youth team goalkeeper playing.

Football is about opinions and maybe some fans love the football we play under Martinez, the good and bad. I know the neutrals do. Personally I want to see Everton win. I want a manager who knows how to win. Martinez is not a winner. Moyes wasn't either but for the most part he had us on an upward curve until we reached the point where the limits of his ability and our finances meant we went no further.

Martinez has us going backwards, the stats spell it out loud and clear. We've won 21 of our last 66 Premier League games and are heading for a second consecutive lower half finish after seven years of finishing in the top eight.

I'm sure Martinez has his strengths, but learning from mistakes isn't one of them. Nor is game management or organising a defence. Bottom line, he's not up to it and he has to go.

Everton on the other hand seem to believe games last for 45 minutes or an hour at most. We've blown FIVE 2-0 leads now and EIGHT games in winning positions in the second half this season. That is fucking pathetic in anyone's book.

As an aside, I would never let Lukaku near another penalty. All his penalties have been unconvincing to say the least. It just proves that great strikers do not always make good penalty takers (Messi and closer to home, Yakubu - Lineker was useless too). For someone who is as much of a beast as Lukaku is and despite that the fact that he can have amazing power in his shot, he scuffs a disproportionate amount of attempts on goal.

But, at the end of the season, there will be no extra reward for that... whatever the picture Roberto paints. No doubt the owners – whoever they are – will give him that warning as he goes into 2016-17.

Last season most had lost patience by Spring but many Martinez supporter's used the Europa League as the primary excuse for faltering league form and many of us were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt of a third season.

Well we are now 12th with the next few games against Chelsea in the biggest game of our season followed by Arsenal and Manchester United.

The fact we will likely go into mid-April rooted in the bottom half with a paltry single figure win tally is disgraceful for the money spent over the last 18 months and considering Martinez's bold superlatives of this being the finest young talent in Europe.

We have shown relatively good patience, Roberto, many managers would have been hooked from their duties after that horrendous surrendering debacle in Hull on New Year's Day 2015.

This situation though can not be allowed to fester into a fourth season.

In a way life would be simpler if we were just rubbish but its this constant teasing I can't take. The occasional electric 30 minutes. The win that threatens to kick-start the season. The two goal lead and penalty opportunity that surely mean the game is won.

We look so near to being a great team. So near and yet so far. Because we have looked like that for a while and the mistakes keep being repeated. Its exhausting and frankly rather upsetting.

I quite like Martinez. He seems like a nice guy and has built us a very good squad. But surely it is clear now that he does not have the answers to the questions that keep being asked of us. I think I'd be pretty happy if I read tomorrow that he had been sacked because he's never quite convinced me but that's not going to happen.

At best he will get to the Summer. I really hope he can find the solution which may be as simple as being more flexible in his philosophy. I won't hold my breath.

I honestly can't see him here unless he wins the FA cup and we go on a 10 game winning streak. In other words........

How can long suffering Evertonians be sure they can win at home after having a 2 goal lead with 10 minutes to go lead to defeat. The resolve and concentration levels defensively are non-existent so what next? RM does not have the answer and quite naturally he will laud the teams best efforts in the media whilst not showing any capability of stopping the rot.

If by some miracle they win the FA Cup, it should not camouflage Roberto's shortcomings and he should be replaced anyway. He is a nice guy but, many times, nice guys finish last.

The only thing that will make Mr Kenwright sit up and take notice will be the reaction of the fan-base, if there are enough people who demonstrate their displeasure with Mr Martinez, Bill will act, if the ground is full for most of this seasons' remaining fixtures and the uptake of Season Tickets for 2016-17 remains the same or better than this, no action will be taken. What is that old saying? The more things change the more they remain the same.

However, I do think he will be on a short fuse in 2016-17 as the new regime beds in and puts up more challenging targets as money is released.

He certainly didn't look like a nice man when he was giving the referee verbals yesterday. I also think that there are two sides to him as there are with many people, but many Scousers don't particularly like those types and it is one of the reasons that his job is under threat from the fans at least.

I prefer people who are in charge to tell things the way they are, rather than sugar-coat issues. Moyes may or not be a nice man, but a lot of people trusted him and that always goes a long way. I would argue that many people don't particularly trust Roberto, rightly or wrongly.

Ross has the potential to be an unbelievable player. There is a complete midfielder just dying to get out of him. You watch the turn and shot he did in the first half and just purr. Then conversely, you watch him stroll about knackered in the 2nd half, watching players just waltz by him, not bothering to even put any kind of pressure on them. I just wish we had a proper football coach to get hold of him and actually teach him how to be the complete player. He certainly has the ability, but Martinez just lets him get away with murder by not pulling his weight. His progress is being stunted by allowing him to stroll around not competing for balls in the centre of the park. The most frustrating part about this is he can actually tackle. We have seen this on very isolated occasions. He just doesn't do it often enough. We watch players like Lennon, Besic, McCarthy covering every blade of grass, then we watch players like Ross, seemingly too knackered to do the same.

Before anybody comes on and starts spouting nonsense suggesting Ross shouldn't be doing such things, take a look at all the top players and their work rate when they don't have the ball. Messi, Suarez, Stevie me, all the United players of the late 90s, we can go on, all work and chase and harass the opposition when they don't have the ball. Ross should be developing into the mould of Stevie me at his peak. He has the potential to be far better given his talents.

Regardless of what you think of Stevie Me (and I do think he was a twat) he was also a top midfield player who Ross should be aspiring to reach and surpass those standards. That he is not is down to Martinez and his passive style of management. That work ethic is just not there at the moment. I'm not just picking on Ross. John Stones, Delboy, and others, their progress is being halted due to Martinez's stance of just letting them do what they want and stroll through games.

Maybe Martinez just doesn't want to upset people, maybe he just doesn't have the know how to turn players into top top players, who knows. What I do know is that he is not turning this talented squad into a decent team. Please don't give me the "they're only young" excuse, just look at the Man Utd kids when they were performing. Ferguson had them expressing themselves whilst also being disciplined. Martinez is going to waste this talented squad. The results over the last 2 years prove that. Saturdays result was just typical of the Martinez reign. Great for 75 minutes and then fall apart. Mental strength is just sadly lacking. Heads drop at the first opportunity when things go against them. You just cannot play football the Martinez way and win consistently.

An interesting stat came to light this week. When Barcelona (the team Martinez is obviously trying to emulate) beat Madrid's record of going 35 games unbeaten, they had scored something like 102 goals. That stat, while impressive, is not what caught my eye. The goals against was something like 14, in 35 games!! Just saying like. Sooner he is gone, the better and we can actually get a manager who can properly coach the talent we have into great footballers.

Would any serious investor trust a manager who's overall record is quite poor? If Moshiri wants to raise the profile of the club and attract top players would he not prefer a better known manager with a proven track record? In his cutthroat world of high finance I'm sure he doesn't suffer fools (not calling Roberto a fool btw) as ultimately he (his investment) will suffer. That's why I can't see Roberto surviving the summer, a bit like Rainieri at Chelsea when Abramovich took over.

And if he doesn't agree to that the deal is off?

I wouldn't think much of the incoming shareholder if that was the case and he had agreed to it.

As for the fanatic label, I could just as well use it for the fans that are constantly on the manager's back no matter what. In this match my defence (apt in this discussion) is that the sending off after 35 mins and the penalty miss had in the end a bigger bearing on the result than the substitution. Do you not think that with a full team and the penalty converted we would not have won this game? You can't blame the manager for both these happenings.

As for the sub, he had a choice of leaving a tired Lennon on the pitch or bringing on fresh legs. He had a choice of Baines, Osman or Deulofeu instead of Niasse, it could be Niasse has been showing up well in training, who knows, not us! I presume he was told to do as Lennon had ably done, again we don't know.

West Ham then scored 3 goals, but what was the cause, was it the sub. was it because all our players tired ( to be expected ) add to that WH had nothing to lose and threw everyone into attack? What about our players, are they blameless, after all their paid a kings ransom to carry out well their individual tasks, I for one am not overly impressed with their game sense.

Oliver, Brent and Andy my reply is as included in the above.

Martinez is not good enough for Everton the fact's don't lie!

The first season was a blend of the new manager/new faces factor plus the bedrock of a settled back four/dressing room!

Would Pochettino, Ranieri, Klopp even Pulis do better with our squad? Say no more!

With the new investment the first signing should be a proven top quality manager and build from there, no more bullshit excuses!

The point for me is that we didn't have a full team nor convert the pen. The point is who to bring on for Lennon. As you say, it could be Niasse has been showing up well in training but we don't know - but in any case that was no situation in which to bring him on.

"I presume he was told to do as Lennon had ably done" - and he didn't do it.

Someone who will put us on the map and make us into a top European club again!

Both really, Dave. Deffo a damning indictment on his ability (or being generous, his confidence after a terrible leg break) to tackle. So leave him where his superb talents will hurt.

It's worse than this – he doesn't even need to tackle but just jockey, keep goal-side of his man. As you say, all others show the energy for this. I blame one man for this and it ain't Ross.

His only salvation is to do the impossible it seems and start winning at home, having looked at the remaining fixtures none of our home games are against the bottom three, so it would now be a major surprise if we managed to win at home again this season in the EPL. A few draws maybe possible.

Away from home is a different matter, we employ different tactics away from GP which seem to get some results, although most of our remaining away games are pretty tough. Roberto's develish luck may have run out it seems.

Martinez just doesn't have a game plan when the team is under pressure, how can you not see this. It's not coincidence that we keep losing football matches from winning positions with 10 mins or so time remaining.

This total football philosophy till the referee blows his whistle may be admirable, but a good manager should know when to do whatever must be done for the points.

Waste time, kick the ball into Row Z, whatever to halt the opponent. I have said before, his attitude of you score 3 we score 4 is bullshit and history has proved any manager who sets out to play like this will ultimately fail.

Of course Martinez can not do anything about referee making dodgy decisions, players being plain stupid and getting sent off, missing a penalty but he is supposed to able to see what the rest of us NON FOOTBALL MANAGERS can see.

We are a mess at the back, and every other premier football manager knows it – who's fault is that Raymond?

Let me say it's no skin off my nose who is the manager, Martinez will be well paid whatever happens. While as already has been said, the buck stops with him, it's a results oriented job and for whatever reason we are leaking points. My gripe is that the people on the pitch are getting off very lightly, while he's copping for it all!

Might it not be an idea to replace the who should be left back poll, and instead ask how many want RM in place for next season.

I don't know maybe as a fan site you don't want to be considered disloyal by putting a poll like this on your website.

Raymond, #211, to be honest mate, even allowing for having the compliment of 11 players, I'm not sure we would have seen the game through. Previous results against Leicester, Stoke, Bournemouth, Norwich, Chelsea, and those are just off the top of my head and also against some teams with less ability than a talented WHU side have shown that we are fragile and cannot see games out when having a lead.

So on that basis, no I don't agree that we would have won on your basis. The penalty is subjective and all part and parcel of the game, some you score some you miss. You may as well include all the chances WHU had and missed or saved if you're going to use a penalty miss for your argument.

Fact is we are a poor team results wise. I read a stat earlier that we would have to win 3 out of the last 4 home games just to equal the 98 teams achievements of 7 home wins all season....and we know how shit we were then. Some achievement eh?

"When I go to the games I tend to sit near enough opposite to the dug out in the upper Bullens. Bobby Martin's assistant Jones, who was at Wigan with him, seems to control the substitutions. This was confirmed by a supporter who sits next to the dug out with his kids.

After the WBA game this supporter came on the radio, Snods & Saint show, when I was driving home from Goodison and stated he heard all the conversation on the bench and confirmed Bobby did not bother himself or intervened on any of the subs. However he did say that Big Dunc was argueing with Jones and disagreeing with his sub choice along with some of the players on the bench. This Jones bloke is not well liked at Goodison and what the supporter says, he has control of Bobby?

Then again, if you are the Manager, then you are the decision maker. "

We have a defence full of Internationals, have they not got the experience to deal with situations as they arise.

How many times have we seen our central defenders out-jumped to concede a goal for instance.

Guys the buck stops with the manager, always has and always will. Nice of you to try to put a positive spin on the manager, but he has managed to do that without any help.

Forget any personal likes or dislikes, just stick to the facts, last season we finished 11th and with 10 games left we are 12th.

Yes he has bought some good players, but as he says himself football is a results business and his results say this is not good enough. His record through his whole career has been poor, so don't expect a change in our circumstances anytime soon with RM in charge.

I also want honesty in what people say but some blame Roberto for every little thing. That's dishonest. As you say, let's just stick to the facts!

Raymond , Martinez and his coaches "coach" the team in all aspects of the game. Martinez said some time ago that "they don't really practise defending set pieces in training " or something along those lines – I forget the reason he gave but it was alarming he said that to say the least don't you think.

His continued excuses are now insulting the intelligence of us all. It's time to get real, Roberto...

He will have seen or at least noted what has taken place on the field over the last two seasons (around the time when talks started between him and the club). He will have drawn his own conclusion long ago that this third-rate manager does not fit into his plans to take the club to the next level.

I think we need defenders that can jump mate, they never seem to get off the ground! How you coach that I don't know.

He does talk for the sake of talking I agree, and he does need to tell it like it is, even I have criticised him for that!

Unless Norwich need a draw or win on the last day to have a chance of staying up, whilst we will have nothing to play for much like the final home game last season in 0-1 loss to Tottenham.

I am not even counting my chickens on us winning again at Goodison this term.

I know if I were Lennon I'd be letting my team mates and manager know exactly how I felt. Unbelievable!

RM – How is it that you can't do this in football when yo are paid millions of $$$$ todo it?

I get him not taking the blame. Taking the blame helped Moyes get the boot at United, but his bullshit excuses make the players sound like they are all on the verge of a meltdown.

If he doesn't start learning from his own errors of judgement some of our players may have actual meltdowns...or just have their agents get them as far away from Goodison as possible.

I'm not saying Martinez should stay. What I'm worried about is that we become just another plastic, cold-hearted franchise which will quickly lose its soul and identity.

I fear that if we make a reactionary appointment who is as different to Martinez as possible, then we will lose much of the good things he has put in place and will therefore, in real terms, be back to square one as a club. Nor am I advocating that he should keep his current job.

As for Sampaoli, I've heard great things about him but then I'd heard great things about Paul Le Guen (Lyons), Pepe Mel (Real Betis), AVB (Porto), Scolari (Brasil) etc... Just a few of the big names who'd done great in their own countries only to crash and burn here.

Our next manager has to be someone who can handle the huge egos of the modern day players but also have a long term plan to develop our own youngsters. Poccetino comes to mind, or Simeone but as neither are available I'd go for a Sanchez Flores. Great record at Getafe and Valencia, doing a great job at Watford, doesn't talk crap etc....

Point is, I think the time has come for Everton to be more adventurous with an appointment, and by that I don't mean throwing money at Mourinho to come in, ruin our academy and destroy the long term future of club for his traditional return of some trophies and three years service. I too like Flores but as fans we all have a personal 'wish list' of players who are our personal favourites whom we wish to see at our club. Well, same too with managers and I see something in Sampaoli's which I truly believe would work for us.

Sorry, can't really explain it beyond that gut feeling as a football fan!

I don't disagree there are 'fanatics' on TW who repeatedly post the same negative bile and lay the blame for everything at the door of the manager. Brent gives a good example of that when referencing the Finch Farm thread on the announcement that the club intends to build sleeping quarters there.

I spoke up on that thread in defence of RM and 100% in favour of the initiative.

You, like it or not, are the reverse coin of that fanaticism, seeing phantoms where none exist, or talking up RM in ways which are just not credible.

On occasion you wade into posts and label the thread and/or posters 'anti-Martinez' when it is nothing of the sort.

Time and again on here you do mock and rail against all comers for their views as - again - you perceive them as 'anti-Martinez.' As recently as the mid-week game at Villa you posted (quoting another poster):

"Some very strange posts here tonight"

Par for the course, Danny, they scream blue murder when we lose, and complain when we win."

On the Stoke 3-0 thread you wrote: "2 wins in a row and we are back in contention, that's how close we've been all along!

"It seems sometimes that some are more concerned with being proved right about RM. If we have a poor performance up they bob again, while if we win they are not around!"

Whilst there is some truth in what you state, such claims cut both ways. You also can be accused of being more concerned on 'being right' on your views on RM. For example, the Stoke win was followed by yet another meek home defeat by WBA ... and you were nowhere to be seen or heard.

You mentioned that 2 consecutive league wins thanks to the win at Stoke had given us a sniff of a European place. This conveniently ignores this is the one and only time this season that we have won 2 consecutive league games and we had to wait 7 months into the season, until February, to achieve that. It was April 2015 when we last won 2 consecutive league games. We have only repeated that achievement once more in the 10 months and 33 PL games since then.

That is simply not good enough. Nor is our truly appalling home form or the fact that no team, regardless of the scoreline, the game time or how dominant Everton has been for the vast majority of the game, is ever 'shut out' or without a chance of getting a result against RM's Everton.

I note with interest, in reply to my very explicit request to you to ...

"Instead of berating and bewailing at the growing number of posters expressing their concerns at the performances of the team and direction of the club under RM, enlighten everybody: Offer an eloquent, coherent and plausible defence of Roberto which will convince others to switch to your camp ..."

... you studiously fail to so, even though you promised to do the same at 178.

All you offer is a list of mitigating circumstances on yesterday's game and a blanket excusing of the manager. Those mitigating circumstances were indeed substantial, and acknowledged by many across several threads.

The key issue you steadfastly ignore is ... the late capitulation against WHU is not a one off this season. There is a systemic failing in how the team is set up and in particular their 'game management,' especially at the death of games.

Taking just 4 games this season, away to Bournemouth and Chelsea and home to Stoke and WHU - we have blown 10 points. That represents more than 25% of our current tally of 38. 48 points would have us in 5th place, squeezed between the 2 Manchester clubs.

Given his numerous statements on his lack of concern on conceding goals (Everton is not set up to NOT concede goals under his stewardship) and his declaration after the 3-3 draw at Chelsea he will never ask his players to play negatively to close out a game, I DO blame the manager that this type of results is becoming too commonplace.

So Raymond, do you want to take another shot at it and not discuss a single game but - as I requested and you promised to respond to - enlighten everybody. Help the rest of us see what you see and why your support of RM remains unwavering: Offer an eloquent, coherent and plausible defence of Roberto which will convince others to switch to your camp.

There are managers all over the world and it's up to the club to find us the right one.

Remember Wenger was in China before Arsenal took him, Alex Ferguson was in Scotland and God only knows were Southampton picked up Pocochino from.

There are plenty of managers just waiting for a cracking at the EPL, maybe the answer is right introit of our face, Ranieri would have been no one's first choice to replace Martinez at the start of the season, but look at the job he's doing.

Gus Hiddink is well worth a punt, experienced and knowledgeable, well respected and will be out of a job, I'm sure we could do a lot worse.

You spent two years telling me to "just admit I was wrong" about Martinez. You only stopped in the face of overwhelming evidence, now you are defending him out of sheer determination not admit you were the one who was wrong.

You need to take your own advice, You have blamed the players, the lack of funds (How Leicester have destroyed that myth)... you have even blamed the fans.

Martinez has taken a semi decent top six team, spent £90m and managed to drop us down to the bottom half of the table. It doesn't seem to matter which players get the gig we keep making the same mistakes.

Coleman, Browning, Galloway, Stones, Funes Mori, Distin, Jagielka, Baines, Garbutt, Robles, McCarthy, Besic, Robles, Howard, Barry, Cleverly and Oviedo – all names I can come up with off the top of my head, they are all decent players, yet they have all been part of a defence which has long since gone beyond embarrassing.

There's an even longer list at Wigan... What's it going to take for X to mark the spot for you ?

The trouble with Everton Football Club is that we are just not tough enough starting from the top down – Board to first team squad.

We need a tough leader at the top. I hope our Mr Moshiri is a really hard nosed business man because he will have to be if he wants his substantial investment to be a success. He needs to sort this lot out very quickly – because this is like death by a thousand cuts for the fans.

If this is allowed to continue we will become a laughing stock and lose what is left of our honour.

People berate Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis for the style of football they play but when did either of those two ever have a squad of the calibre that is at our current managers disposal?

Allardyce and Pulis fight with the weapons at their disposal. They are not interested in pleasing anyone they have a very clear view of what is required for survival in the premier league.

I would take Pulis tomorrow. At the start of the new season I guarantee you:

There would not be a fitter squad in the premier league. They would know how to defend. There would be a new player in the squad who would enforce his managers instructions on the pitch – or else. There would be no favourites. The talented players we have would soon start playing to their true potential. We would finish in the top six. Goodison would be a fortress again.

It's tough at the top. If you want to be at the top you have to be tough.

At the top of the table, Leicester would be level on points with Arsenal (52) with Spurs in third on a point less than the leaders and Manchester United (49) a further two points behind in fourth. Everton would be in 9th place one point behind Chelsea (42) and West Ham, two points behind our neighbours (43) in sixth place with Manchester City in fifth place on 45 points.

At the bottom of the table Norwich City (25) would be three points adrift of Newcastle (28) who lie fourth from bottom, whilst Aston Villa (21) would be 3 points better off than last placed Sunderland (18)

I don't think any of these three would accept the shocking defending we have had to witness this season (and last) but at least they wouldn't employ idiotic substitutions.

Strangely enough Max, I heard the same rumour in the pub after the game. Someone sitting behind the bench confirming that Bobby doesn't concern himself with the subs..... if that's true...

No. I'll stop there as I have reminded myself that I have been swearing far too much on this site the last season or two.

http://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2016/3/6/11168678/Everton-west-ham-united-tactical-analysis-Roberto-Martinez-aaron-lennon

Link

It wasn't just Lennon helping out that was changed, we effectively went 4-3-1, in a game where we were comfortably leading 2-0 and the midfield was doing its job.

That is until the soft dope decides we need to actually go for that killer third goal... effing .....eff!!!

You've obviously gone back though my past posts, and those examples are the worst you can find? Hardly emotive language are they! I don't see anything that I disagree with by the way, I think they are spot on.

The crux of our opposing views, is Martinez the sole reason we are conceding too many goals or is it the players individual defending, or is it a mixture of both?

Take Saturday's game, the first two West Ham goals, crosses into the box, plenty Everton players in the area but were beaten in the air for both. Their third goal was a head down two flicks for another goal. Part of our main problem in defence is we don't have a defender that is good in the air with the exception of maybe Funes Mori.

Martinez makes mistakes that's a given there's never been one that doesn't, it goes with the territory. Don't forget though that there's always two sides to every story, and opinions are opinions... not fact.

Let's stick to the truth, where have I mentioned the crowd in a disparaging way?

You mention Leicester, but one swallow does not make a summer, name another no-hoper that have emulated them.

The spent £90m is an old topic; yes, he's spent £90m but he's also sold players for a good part of that total, Fellaini for £28m for instance!

Darren, look at West Ham's goals on Saturday, notice anything?

And here's the fucking scary bit! He then states "Fortunately, I have got seven years of experience in this league and I know what it takes."

Whelan of Wigan, you had our pants down with this fraud of a manager. We're doomed, I tell you! Doomed.

I noticed the guy who you say is good in the air getting murdered for all three goals... just as he did throughout the match.

I also noticed a West Ham player on goals on Sunday I was watching a recording just now. Apparently Bilic told them to just keep putting balls into our box. Your boy has been rumbled. The whole of football knows how to put us in trouble... just launch it.

He has what on paper is around £80m worth of defenders and he is sitting below the much ridiculed Tony Pulis.

Jags is an International who is not at his best when the balls in the air, Stones has not covered himself in glory the air, our regular full backs I don't rate very highly in defence, never have. Our midfielders might as well have no head, so their no use on crosses.

I suppose you can blame Martinez for not signing a tall no nonsense central defender, maybe he's tried who knows. We definitely need one because its a glaring weak spot for me.

We have a really fabulous squad who are being badly directed and should be doing much better. Get rid of the idiot and we will do better... just let the players play. Get rid of BK and give them a new stadium to play in; we have been stagnating far too long.

Errrr ... no Raymond. I didn't do a deep forensic search of your past posts with the intention of finding 'worst examples' of your claims. I just found two TYPICAL posts of yours in recent after match threads as examples of how you constantly ridicule other posters for their perceived anti-manager stance and then suggested you are basically the flip side of that coin in your constant support of the manager.

I take it from your regurgitation - referring only to the WHU game - that you are unwilling or unable to mount a coherent or credible defence to help enlighten other Blues what you see in Martinez that you evidently consider others are blind to, as you promised to do. For example, you also recently said on these pages that this team under Martinez will be challenging for top 4 next season.

As I said in my original post to you in this thread, I would be genuinely interested in just why you believe that and why Roberto still has your unwavering support.

However, as you have spurned two opportunities to be more explicit on those points, I guess you won't be enlightening and convincing us any time soon.

Best leave it there then, eh..?

If I disagree, I give the reason why I disagree, always have, what more do you want. As I've said before, it's no skin off my nose if Martinez is sacked, I care not.

But to blame him entirely for many defeats is being one-eyed in my opinion, if you fault his tactics fair enough, but he's still at the mercy of how the players play on the day, you have to take that into account also.

I see no point of going over the same points over and over again, let's just disagree.

Erhm ... I'm not aware that I've 'disagreed' with you on any issue in this thread.

Why not? Quite simple, really. Because you haven't outlined what your personal assessment and opinion is of RM as to why he continues to have your unwavering support. Therefore, I have nothing to go on, nothing I can agree or disagree on. If anything, my post @ 245 agrees with you on a couple of points you make.

But in response to a request to enlighten us all with why RM retains your total support, all you've really said is that not only the manager should be copping it, but the players too. In case you haven't noticed, the players have most certainly copped it, be it pre-, post-, or during the match all season.

Maybe, just maybe Raymond, one of the reasons you are occasionally challenged on TW is because you seemingly prioritize defending the manager over expressing your concern for the team.

Your first words in this thread reflect that. I quote: "I'll tell you why I despair, blame the manager/ blame the manager that's all I hear on here."

To me, and possibly many others, that is ... odd. I would wager a good wedge an overwhelming number of Blues 'despair' at the frequency of how many winning positions we keep blowing at the death and seeking reasons and exploring possible solutions, rather than 'despairing' at the same thing as you.

My request to you to outline why RM retains your support was/is a genuine one.

It's a little surprising (and disappointing) that you shy away from doing so. Surprising, because such a stalwart of RM as you evidently are, would surely have a ready made list of positives you are able to attribute to him. Disappointing, because the way you respond offers nothing to convince any one to join you in your support of RM.

Hey-ho...

Jay old chap, we disagree about Martinez's all round ability, what happens on the field most of the time can be for lots of reasons, certainly there not all down to the manager. In the end he takes responsibility though because the buck stops with him, that's fair enough its a results orientated position.

It depends on our perception of the happenings, and I think we appreciate that fans watch a match and come to different conclusions. I'm coming to a different conclusion than the majority, maybe I'm wrong, it's possible the majority are correct. Nevertheless, it's opinion not fact!

As for his pluses, he's brought some young players though to the first team and they have each been a success. His more expensive signings have proved their worth and have appreciated in value. We are a match for anyone going forward, hence the goals scored. He's been adamant that our best players have not gone elsewhere and has succeeded in that aim.

Of course we need to concede less goals that's obvious, I've said several times before our main weakness is crosses into the box, but in general the players are not getting the criticism, its mostly on the manager.

I despair like everyone else about some of our results, my opinion is that we are losing some games for many reasons, and pointing the finger at the manager as if he is solely to blame is wrong.

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I'm not on TW 24-7 myself and I've only just seen your reply.

You say "we disagree about RM's all-round ability."

Not sure that is altogether true, Raymond. On Sunday, on the Brian Viner Open Letter thread, I wrote a brief synopsis of the many positive things Roberto has done in his time at the club which is not too disimilar to your own above list.

Things you list and things I listed in the other thread and agree on:

* He's brought some young players though to the first team and they have each been a success. Agreed. He has also signed potential talent to the academy squad (as Moyes used to). Some appear to be progressing well, but as we've seen with many failures down the years, very few kick on to be PL class.

* His more expensive signings have proved their worth and have appreciated in value. Agreed.

The Jekyl and Hyde nature of some posters on TW makes me laugh sometimes on this point. Romelu Lukaku, still only 22, our top ever scorer in a single PL season still with 10 games to go; this season he joined an exlusive group of four other players - Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, Fowler and Owen (pretty decent company...) - to score 50 PL before age 23. And yet ... one particular poster constantly calls Romelu a lazy and unlimited footballer... then in the same breath says "we should sell him for £50 million clubs will offer for him!"

That's same lazy, limited footballer at that evaluation!
Ross, Stones, Deulofeu (Barcelona buy-back clause allowing), Galloway and possibly McCarthy have all seen their value soar since Roberto joined us.

* We are a match for anyone going forward, hence the goals scored. Agreed. The stats don't lie. Our PL goals for column is only marginally bettered by Leicester and City, equal to Spurs with the next best being the Arse, 5 goals fewer.

* He's been adamant that our best players have not gone elsewhere and has succeeded in that aim. Agreed. His repelling of Chelsea's attempts to sign Stones has since been celebrated in song, although such is the fickle nature of some, John - another very talented young player - is being dismissed by some after hitting a bump in his form for the first time in what I am sure will be a mega career.

If anything, in the post I reference, I go further than you in talking up RM's positives, recalling how in his 1st season:

* He retained the steely demeanour of Moyes' Everton and welded on to that an attacking flair and a genuine 'sin miedo' 'philosophy' that carried us to 5th in the table with a record points haul for the PL era.

* He regularly introduced effective subs at different phases of the game, who impacted on the game to Everton's benefit.

* He made subtle tactical changes in games which also had positive outcomes.

* His embracing and understanding of Everton's history was impressive.

* His perpetual positivity was uplifting and inspirational.

There was a real sense of anticpation at the start of his 2nd season, given all the positive evidence of his first season, that Everton could seriously challenge the clique at the top table in the PL.

However, it proved to be a damp squid of a season that never ignited. All the good stuff from the 1st season evaporated to nothingness. Rather, there was a disturbing regression in the performance of the manager, the players and the collective, the team.

There is clearly a wealth of talent at the club under Martinez which continues to tease and tantalize, teetering on the brink of breaking through to be something very special, but then blowing it in spectacular fashion.

Whilst the goals have satisfyingly flowed into our 'For' column, so have they poured into our 'Against' column. And that has been an issue for getting on 18 months now.

You acknowledge we need to concede less goals and that our main weakness is crosses into the box, adding "in general the players are not getting the criticism, its mostly on the manager."

As I previously stated in this thread, I disagree with that last statement. Players are also copping it every match week, but the overwhelming criticism is without doubt levelled at the manager.

And I'm sorry to say Raymond, but it is done so with good reason.

You simply cannot dispute the number of times Roberto has come out and said such things as:

* he is not concerned with clean sheets

* Everton under his stewardship will never be set up to be overly concerned with keeping clean sheets

* Hell! Just yesterday he denied the very concern you expressed - that Everton DON'T have a problem defending from crosses into the box!

And he is saying these things as we repeatedly give up winning leads late into games AND trying to convince us that ... "We are learning!"

You bemoan the criticism Roberto gets and so desperate are you to see him suceed you flag up any and every small success you can attribute to him.

For example, after the Stoke game, as I already quoted, you were hooting: "2 wins in a row and we are back in contention, that's how close we've been all along!"

This conveniently ignores it is the ONLY time this season we HAVE won 2 consecutive PL games, and we have to go back 10 months to April 2015, 33 PL games prior, to find the last time we did this.

As for our home form, since we beat the woeful Villa 4-0 at Goodison on 21 November, our PL home reads thus:

P 8 W 1 D 2 L 5 F 13 A 15 PTS 5 (from a possible 24).

A single win against another relegation bound club - Newcastle - is all the home support has had to cheer in nearly 4 MONTHS!!!

Raymond, this flags up a systemic failing at the club IMO.

In the Brian Viner thread I actually described RM in the very terms of another good piece on Roberto that appeared the next day: that he is an idealist who needs to be more pragmatic.

Unless and until HE changes and compromises HIS philosophy, I don't see him as a long term success at Everton.

Now ... that wasn't so bad, was it ..?

When it's that long it is! Seriously, I think many of the short posts on TW are the best (eloquent but not loquacious!).

My reply was a personal response, directly and specifically, to Raymond in an ongoing dialogue on an otherwise dead thread. My comment 'that wasn't so bad...' was a little tongue in cheek as Raymond views me as rabidly anti-Roberto which I am most certainly not.

Long or short, what ultimately constitutes a good post IMO is the quality of the content, which of course each one of us is at liberty to judge.

Whilst I agree with you on some points – players are making individual errors ... a manager can't legislate for players getting sent off or for a player missing a penalty ... on others I question your opinion.

Is it not a fact that teams train 10 against 11 sometimes in preparation for the game scenario when they are a man down? Is it not also fair to say that for 78 minutes against WHU, with the excellent subbing in of Besic for Stones and the formation reshuffle that resulted, that Everton continued to look the better side and the numerical disadvantage was negligible, as proven when Lennon put us 2-0 up? That things only unravelled in those critical minutes after the change in personnel following Lennon's removal?

I accept fatigue from playing for an hour a man short as one mitigating circumstance. But as is frequently evident, Everton is not a 90 minute - and certainly not a 97 minute – team under Roberto.

Physical fitness has a positive knock on effect to mental sharpness. The same endorphins that make you feel better from physical exercise also help you concentrate and feel mentally sharp for tasks at hand. Everton are not only flagging physically towards the end of games, but also being 'dull' mentally with poor concentration levels which time and again are letting teams back into games they were seemingly shut out of.

I'm quite taken aback by your comment that "We are continually conceding from corners and set pieces which every pro footballer should be able to defend against without the manager's input."

I think that is out and out nonsense. Every pro footballer, certainly defenders, needs to continually hone and improve his skills. As is demonstrated time and again by the different style of different managers, it's not only the innate skills of a defender which should be sufficient to clear his penalty area (which is the implication of your statement), but how they are drilled to work as a unit to stop balls coming into their penalty area and then clearing the threat should the ball threaten our goal.

We are quite clearly deficient in this regard in comparison to many other teams in the Premier League.