Talking points in the aftermath of Everton vs Aston Villa

I've noticed over the years that these breaks usually lead to a loss of momentum when teams, not just us, may be doing well prior to the break but, on returning to Premier League action, they stutter and look a bit stale, usually taking two or three games to get their momentum back... and in some cases they lose it altogether?

I hate these breaks and I wouldn't mind but so many people don't even waste their time watching England underperforming as usual. If this game had been played the week after the Wolves game, I personally think we'd have beaten Villa conclusively but the momentum we'd built up over the preceding weeks was lost due to the enforced break.

I appreciate a bit of footy on live TV but the quality is so bad these days, it doesn't even feel like international football, the two England games proved there is zero point in having a group full of tripe in it because there's no competition at all.

I also think it's thrown upon us too soon.

I remember in the '90s and up to about 2008 or so they always had an away game and a home game on the midweek in August. This has since been replaced by the insane midweek in bleak December when people are cash strapped, cold and the usual moaning Premier League managers are saying too many games in December, well go back to having them in August then.

There may have been things that Moyes and the players could have done to change the outcome of the game, but in my eyes, the performance was a vast improvement over previous games against Villa. We matched them, out-fought them, and in reality should have won the game.

Let's continue to build in confidence and get a win next Saturday.

Because it's Röhl's first appearance, he gets a walkover but there were better choices to come off the bench instead of him — Alcaraz, for instance. I can see him getting restless with his lack of game time. Moyes doesn't seem to have any trust in the lad.

Röhl should get his chance when the team have a good lead, not when they are trying to get ahead in the game.

Dibling is another wondering what he was bought for, not a minute since he came after we bartered 3 months to get him here.

Mind you, dull dour dithering Dave takes his time to understand what he wants... I wonder if his coaches have any input on his team changes or are they like Moyes with a safety-first attitude?

Dewsbury-Hall was playing like an old inside forward, at times once Villa began to retreat. Although I wouldn't disagree with anyone who wanted to see Alcaraz and Dibling, I also thought McNeil might have been a good shout with the way the game was panning out towards the end.

What's the point in having depth if you're not going to use it in games like yesterday's? That was definitely getting uttered by quite a few people leaving the stadium after the game.

If a post is related to football then, no matter how ridiculous, it shouldn’t be taken down.

Posts are being moved to the Premier League thread if they relate to other games this weekend.

If they relate to anything else, they risk being deleted. Please stay on topic.

Got to take the positives. Keane was class. Keep it up, especially against those lucky bastards next Saturday.

If so, they’re on topic.

Beto, who seems to get into the right position but seems to mess up in almost unbelievable ways and gives central defenders a lot to worry about. Or Barry, who is yet to prove he can get into the right position, even allowing for the limited time to judge either.

And if we went for somebody different, let's say Ndiaye or Alcaraz, would we be losing something aerially and physically and would that then negate any wide play? Or would we have to revamp to playing more centrally and less of Grealish left and whoever, Dibling or A N Other wide right?

I suppose the third choice would be to start one way and then switch at some time during the game, which I assume would be about the much-favoured hour mark.

Röhl looked great. Decent first touch, passing, and little glimpses of skill. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts against Wolves in the cup, and possibly West Ham the following Monday.

As for the ‘retro' Moyes negativity, he's changed so why don't you give it a try?!

Also, I'm not entirely sure why people think Alcaraz is that good? But hopefully, I will be proved wrong about that.

Barry isn't much better, though early days to condemn him. He has better ball control and some deft touches which should put him ahead of Beto from the Ghetto!

I think we slipped up by not getting another striker in before the Transfer Window slammed shut, especially after letting the only other alternative, Chermiti, go out. I am not talking necessarily about a high profile/high priced individual.

Igamane from Rangers or Ivanovic from Millwall would have been eager to come, and couldn't be any worse than Beto. Possibly a lot better to be honest, but we will never know now, will we?

Mind you, we had our usual share of bad luck, where Keane on another day could have had 3 but for bar, post a save, and a narrow miss.

So this beggars the question: Why is McNeil, a left-footed winger, not playing in the left-back position instead of a dynamic right-footed midfielder?

Is Moyes guilty of the same type of blindness that stopped Dyche playing a centre-back in the right-back position?

Secondly, the majority of goals this season have come through ground shots and easy close header tap-ins. Though I did not see the full game against Villa, what I did see was that both attackers missed shots that, if taken better, could have resulted in several goals.

Result, Beto and Barry failed to score but will be back again next week. If we are to get better, we must reward better play. So what about putting Dibling into the centre-forward position, maybe after the Liverpool game, if either striker fails to score?

Coleman was always a full-back... never a winger.

Moyes did play him further forward for a bit because he was very raw and making a lot of mistakes but eventually sent him out on loan.

It was the making of Seamus...

they aren't that good defensively and if Beto calms down he will score

This is typical Moyes. Everton had the chance to progress into the top four, but they didn't which has been a feature of Moyes's Everton career for years. When progression up the top was within Everton's grasp he bottled it.

To all extent and purposes Everton should have won that game, but didn't.

Next game Everton face one of the traditional top six, let's see if he can break his up to now woeful record against such sides. If he doesn't Everton then slides down the table.

To challenge in the Premiership it is crucial to achieve wins when faced with such games. At the end of the day it is all about progressing Everton's position up the table.

The other things is what does Moyes mean when he says he has no idea if Mykolenko is playing next week ? He needs to kick ass at Finch Farm and find out.Everton are in a Premier League campaign and unresolved I juries are not helping .

One thing that Moyes is achieving is in managing to move to the new Stadium.Therevis not one iota of misgivings about the move from Goodison anywhere.So he is achieving what in my opinion he was recruited for

Igamane managed 11 goals in the SPD. Motherwell and Ross County.

No idea why you'd think either would be bangin' them in for us.

At least Barry scored 11 in La Liga. Give it time.

Coleman played an entire season and part of a second as our starter at right wing/mid, and that was after he returned from his Blackpool loan in May 2010.

In 2010/11 and 2011/12, he made 52 appearances on the wing, most of them starts.

He didn't become a regular right back until September 2012.

My point though was that Seamus was brought in to play right back and no-one was "amazed" let alone surprised when he made that berth his.

Beto is far from what we would like to have in a perfect world, but to propose some of these bang average players as 'they would do better', is unrealistic. There have even been calls to bring in youngsters from the academy.

The truth is none of these players are better than what we have. If you asked fans of other teams, they'd just point out their weaknesses and be just as frustrated with them as we are. Unless we pay out big money (60m+) or find some undeveloped gem (which is what they have tried with Barry/Chermiti etc) then finding a quality striker will be difficult.

"This is typical Moyes. Everton had the chance to progress into the top four"

Yes, and we're 6th currently having been fighting relegation for years.

We're 9th for the last 38 games. Moyes has only managed 23 of them.

Sounds like success to me.

As for Moyes when he has a go when the opportunity is there then I’ll change my opinion on him, Scott were you happy with just two substitutions and no improvement in the performance?

The best thing to do - boring though this is - is not to mess about overcomplicating the tactics and formation and instead just giving a new group of players time to settle in to a 4231 with Beto up top initially. Barry then needs games to develop - and really could develop over the course of 18 months. No surprise that he doesn’t look up to much yet - he’s barely played.

I thought KDH was pretty average on Saturday and would like to see Moyes try Ndiaye at 10 with Dibling on the right at some point. I even think Ndiaye could be an option at ST if Beto continues to misfire and Barry doesn't impress Moyes as Ndiaye is so strong and good at holding off bigger players on his back. Getting the ball to his feet around the box will really help us score more goals.

As for Beto vs Barry: Beto is by far faster off the mark and probably has a stronger shot; Barry seems to have more ball control to hold up play but a striker needs to put the ball in the net.

John (17) I also am not convinced that Alcaraz is the player most people think he is, and if we brought him on, who would he have replaced?

Yes, I thought Everton were giving the ball too much to Grealish who was well marked and didn't do enough with his final balls except for the centre that Keane had his good header saved.

There was another time he cut inside and set himself up for a shot from the edge of the box but decided to pass instead and the pass was too strong and went out for a goal kick.

I thought some of the midfielders should have tried switching the ball across field and giving Ndiaye more of the ball and let him weave some of his magic, he's very good and the players should realise that, although Grealish is also very good, he's not the main man.

What was you yawning at? Me having a go at dull, dreary dithering Dave?

As for Beto and Barry, I understand the situation: we are stuck with them until Barry proves his worth and Beto starts scoring.

As for Alcaraz, I thought he could have been used to replace Tim instead of Röhl who didn't impress or change the way we played,

Neil, we can use five substitutes — Moyes used two... to no effect — that's what most fans are having a go at. Have another yawn!

There were lots of positives, but if we don't start putting these chances away, then we are going to come unstuck.

This thread is about talking points after Saturday's game and Jerome is spot on that the lack of ambition shown by the manager was a very worrying sign.

I disagree with Mal that we played better against Villa than we have done for years. Not so long ago, we drew 2-2 with a much weaker team against much stronger opposition and were excellent on the day. It was only their quality attacking play that prevented us getting a result.

In my opinion it was our lack of smelling the game from the manager against a vulnerable out-of-form Villa side who hadn't scored a goal that prevented us from taking the points.

Again looking at the table is irrelevant at this stage. We have taken 7 points from 4 games which is decent. However, if you look at it objectively, we have played 2 sides who are likely to finish between 8th and 12th, and 2 relegation fighting sides. If we had taken less than 6 points then we would be in for a long season considering the investment we have made.

We have a squad now in my opinion capable of finishing 8th at best and 12th at worst. These types of games are the ones that decide if we are going to have a chance of competing for a European place. Not since Ancelotti has a manager been given the tools to do the job, Moyes has options — he must be brave enough to use them.

I agree with Sam that the heat map should be a lot hotter on the right side, maybe the derby might be too much to give Dibling a start, but we're starting to look very predictable on the left. And the left back position is the RS's weakest link - they've already realised that Kerkes is a dud.

Or is that simply not a possible scenario because fortune favours the brave?

And if fortune does favour the brave, what happens when two equally brave sides meet?

Is anyone brave enough to answer?

Villa were so low in confidence that they had settled for a point. They had doubled up on both wingers and brought fucking Lindelof on in midfield due to their lack of options. Emery had decided that he wanted a point with 20 minutes to go. Tielemans and Watkins both were hooked, their chief creator and goalscorer.

If we had have lost 1-0 which was unlikely we would have lost one point for the chance to win two. Emery had tied him up and a tactical change of putting Dibbling on for KDH, moving Ndiaye left and getting Jack central would have undone Emery's straightjacket.

The 2 full backs on yellow cards would have had different challenges to face who were looking more comfortable than at any other time during the game.

Emery's subs told you he was happy with the point, Moyes lack of subs told you he was equally happy

I agree with Conor's analysis of Everton's likely finishing position and the reasons he has given.

Based on the number of points lost by Fulham, Brighton, Brentford in these first 4 games compared to last season, we are now above them all. Will it stay like that? No idea.

Yes, we would take 10 points more before the end of October. So 17 points going to Sunderland away and Top 10 is likely.

I can see why he felt that what he had was working to a degree and substitutions do not always improve things. But we do have more options now and I hope we will see them used.

Bored and turned off with the constant churning out the same old “dull, dreary dithering Dave” mantra.

If you just expressed your opinions, I might continue to read your posts but, once I see your favourite words, I continue on to next post. I prefer to read constructive criticisms and opinions like you did in the response.

In 1985 we got more points against the same opposition, does that mean this season is shit?

No offense Phil but that is an irrelevant post. We will win more points of certain teams than last season and visa versa.

No one is complaining about our start to the season 7 points is decent, even had Moyes showed ambition we may still have only taken a point and been unable to break them down but it was surprising to me considering that we have never had such favourable conditions against Villa that we didn't at least try and turn the screw.

The owners have showed ambition to give Moyes the options to effect games, this to me was one such game where he could have done so.

Beto header forced a decent save from Martinez, but his other chances were only half chances in my opinion.

Grealish had one shot saved but I can't think of any more good ones from the rest of the players.

Villa made it tight and difficult for us to produce chances, they didn't come to play an open game.

Saying that, we are playing with makeshift full-backs and missing Branthwaite, we are doing okay; we are not conceding many goals which is a little surprising.

The main problem we had it seems to me is we couldn't really put our foot on the gas. We couldn't press Villa the way we would like. But that's cos of the low block defence we have to employ with so little pace in the back four.

Put Branthwaite and Mykolenko into that team and we play 10 yards further forward, and press much more for a goal.

Everton are doing okay, but the teams we have recently been playing have set shop against us and are easily managed going forward, but there are signs of gaps between midfield and the defensive line when it is too deep to compensate for a lack of pace.

Even Villa in the second half were able to avail of that space, giving the impression of walking through midfield. Everton need proper left and right-back and more pace in the centre-back. Makeshift is not good enough from Finch Farm and should not be accepted. But Keane who has skill is benefiting from having skilled footballers to play with.

It’s a decent start - but we really could do with Mykolenko and Branthwaite back.

I have lost track again of when that will be. Hopefully soon

No mindless adulation or histrionics from Dave.

1) Rotate Grealish and Ndiaye.
2) Drop KDH into midfield to replace Tim Irog.
3) Move Ndiaye to the CAM role closer to Beto.
4) Bring on Dibling as part of 2) and/or 3).
5) Put an extra man in midfield.

Instead he did like for like substitutions replacing Tim and Beto. Probably because he saw a draw as a decent result - Villa were also very grateful to escape on Saturday with a draw.

Moyes doesn't appear to fancy playing Patterson, I'm not sure of what he thinks of Aznou, somebody must have thought he was good enough when he was bought! Coleman would still do ok I feel for part of a game. Its a bit of a mess and unsatisfactory.

I just hope the wheels don't come off this Sat. I don't think its good enough to play at sixes and sevens at the back against them.

The bettings 4/9 Reds 11/2 Everton 7/2 a Draw.

It's a decent start - but we really could do with Mykolenko and Branthwaite back.

I have lost track again of when that will be. Hopefully soon.

A different if Robert, if Moyes had gone for it and won 1-0 I think there would have been scores of posts acclaiming his brilliant tactics.

He didn't and is getting some critical posts for his poor substitution ability on Saturday.

- win
- lose
- draw

The reason we didn’t win is lack of quality in forward areas coupled with an excellent goalkeeping performance.

There were tactical options, totally agree.

Moyes is conservative, yes. He could have really gone for it. But the three options still remain.

Experience shows that our manager (whoever he is) is a tactical incompetent unless we win.

I also think your last sentence can be challenged—there have been many occasions when we have been unlucky to win but have drawn or lost but the fans haven’t been that upset because we had a good go and at least tried to win the game—- that’s before substitutions and with them.

I don't think we didnt have a go at trying to win the game, we had 20 shots but only 3 on target. I agree Jack should shoot more often instead of trying to create for everybody else, also seems we along with a lot of teams refuse to just cross a ball early into the box despite having a Centre forward whose only positive is heading the ball.

100%

Could’ve done this could’ve done that.

Every single manager is incompetent (my words ) unless we win (any club supporters say this)

We (Moyes )didn’t and their goalkeeper was player of the match

That said hes a more precise player than a blammer, and he missed Mykolenko- although Garner had a good game.

Thought Kdh was ok, but offered good pace if they counter attacked at pace. That was there only way they'd score.

Yes, and it's continued into this season. First win(s) in August for years. Top 6 after 4 games, etc.

Better than listening to someone prattling on, contradicting themselves, post after post.

Cost would’ve been 1 billion +

There will be tickets not being used, as a fans cant be in two locations at the same time.

There will be fans that have taken up corporate, that don't go every game. You could see a couple of empty boxes on Saturday.

Top 6. Do you think we are going to be top 6 next week after we play our first top 7 side?

No contradiction 7 points from these 4 games are decent. Not brilliant not bad, a good solid start.

Seems a bit personal that post. Perhaps you are right I am being too harsh on the manager as if the guy you confidently predicted to score between 15-20 goals this season had banged them in like you said he would perhaps Moyes would still be getting more flowers. I can see why you would be vexed.

Brian #64, we do have a decent center forward, he just had a bad game. Personally I was hoping Moyes would bring on Alcaraz for Tim, and slide KDH back into Tim's slot next to Gana. KDH can play back there and it would have been our best attacking setup at that point because we know Alcaraz can score.

Hopefully Mykolenko is available. Moyes has said he has adequate cover at left back, but he is playing Garner in that position. He did not name him as cover.There appears to be no back up for Mykolenko.All of these issues were known since June.I don't Aznou was ever going to get straight into the first team.In the left back position no player was developed to replace Colman. John Joe Kenny was the only serious contender. Young was a Professional stand in.Patterson never recovered from getting slapped on the back of the head by Dyche.

I agree Robert standing off Leeds should never been part of any Manager's plan.

He clearly needs to get fit again, and some minutes behind closed door / younger age group to bring him up speed.

Calls for much else is unfair on the lad.

In the past, as late as last season, there was a reason we couldn’t change the team too much there wasn’t enough decent players in the squad to do so—— that doesn’t apply now.

Absolutely. £1.7 million on Demarai Gray. I remember it well.

"Were you not expecting a win considering the squad we have and the fixtures we got?"

What, one loan player and Dewsbury-Hall, who you claim bollocksed up the game against Leeds by being moved deeper? The rest of our summer signings have had little to no involvement in the league campaign.

Whose to say what is and isn't a difficult fixture? Liverpool needed a last minute penalty to beat Burnley at the weekend.

"Top 6. Do you think we are going to be top 6 next week after we play our first top 7 side?"

I assume by this question that you don't? Strange given the fact that you claimed our most impressive recent (ish) performance was a 2 all draw where we were only denied a win by the attacking quality of opposition. (Liverpool) Even more strange given the fact that David Moyes was the manager and Beto scored the opening goal. Despite not scoring against decent teams.

"No contradiction"

Your posts are full of contradictions. You claim that if you cant beat this team you wont beat that team and then claim the opposite, that just because you didn't beat these teams it doesn't mean you wont beat other teams over the course of the season.

"7 points from these 4 games are decent. Not brilliant not bad, a good solid start."

Yep, 66.5 points over a season. You claim we wont finish better than 8th and maybe as low as 12th. I'd feel a bit hard done by if 66/67 points only gets you 12th place. Better than just solid. Especially with the 15th best squad in the division.

"Seems a bit personal that post. "

Well, it was aimed at you so yes, personal.

"Perhaps you are right I am being too harsh on the manager as if the guy you confidently predicted to score between 15-20 goals this season"

I think I said that Beto had scored around 10 goals a season from a certain amount of minutes/starts in 3 different countries leagues and that I was fairly confident that he would score a few more from a greater number of minutes/starts. I still think that's reasonable myself. He has already scored 1 in 3 premier league starts and 1 in no cup game starts. So, 2 in 5 appearances.

Meanwhile your boy hasn't scored any goals. You claimed Roma only looked a threat after he came on yet it was 0-0 when he was introduced and they went on to lose 1 nil and he 'didn't get any clear cut chances'. Some threat.

But then you also think Emery was happy to take a nil-nil when he was bringing forward after forward on at the weekend.

Yes Grant Mordor is our most difficult place to go to where we have won once in light years and surprise surprise that came when when the referee had no gallery to play to. Are you expecting 3 points there? I hope you are right.

No Grant in terms of opposition I said it will be more difficult to accumulate wins against the top 7 teams than those outside or in the bottom half. You don't agree? Ask your friend Beto who you seemed to have disowned as only 1 of his 8 goals last season came against them.

Grant 66.5 points over a season. Is that serious mathematical logic? We have played 4 teams outside the likely top 7 so far. Is this a prediction or just more waffle you won't stand over? I guarantee we won't accumulate 24.5 points or more from our fixtures with the top 7 (1.75 per game)

15 th best squad in the division? Really?

Perhaps you are correct Jay, I mean Grant, and you didn't claim that he scores about 1 goal in every 2 games in terms of minutes played, perhaps you didn't claim that he's the least of our worries and perhaps you didn't take offence to my claim that he wouldn't score 15 PL goals and that his purple patch coincided with the new manager bounce. I like Mike will stand by my claim that he wont get more than 10 PL goals.

I will look forward to hearing your opinions rather than chirping away at others word for word who have the balls to give them and stand over them.

The reason he wasn't fully up to speed for us to start with were injury and having the ever reliable Tony Hibbert as the right back starter.

Similar to Baines introduction in many ways, nothing to do with the manager not having confidence in them.

He should try Beto and Barry in the cup, going near post far post depending on which side the ball is. By that I mean the area of.

Moyes alarmingly states he uses substitutes often and to influence outcomes in a previous post match conference when confronted. Which we all know is complete bollox. He is known as Dithering and Dilly Dally for a reason.

He prefers 0-0 than going for a win.

He has never proactively changed a game with positive substitutions.

In fairness Everton have failed for generations to secure the services of half decent forwards. It seems to be a syndrome to never buy a goal scorer. Apart from Lukaku, who was an exception.

Moyes has two poor choices. Beto being the better option at present. Its dire. But nothing new.

As for the Villa match, Tim was poor. Gaye runs round but its always fire fighting, not controlling.

KDH was also poor. The others were either good or better.

Thing is our CM needs changing. There is no authoritative player. No one who can grasp and control. With Illy and Jack, the pressure is off to find the clinical through ball. So we need two CM's who can dominate. Tim aint that man. Nor is Jimmy. GG needs a player alongside him who is the boss. Merlins young, but may be the one ?

The squad was on its bare bones. So no suprise there isn't much choice for Dilly Dally to choose from. But he needs to take a risk or two with line ups and subs, now that he has two outstanding flank players.

I don't think we paid £100 million for him. Not for a loan. Nor would anyone else. If he was worth that he'd still be at City or, if they didn't want him, they'd just have sold him. For a £100 million.

"who has 4 assists"

I could have got the 'assist' for Garner's goal against Brighton.

"Yes I think it's fair to say they have helped the squad? You don't think they played a role in the victories over Brighton and Wolves?"

Yes, as has anyone who has been involved in the first 4 games. Most of our new signings have not been involved or had limited involvement however. Yet, you think the results are not a continuation of last seasons upturn in fortunes under Moyes but are instead due to massive investment in the squad.

"Yes Grant Mordor is our most difficult place to go to where we have won once in light years and surprise surprise that came when when the referee had no gallery to play to. Are you expecting 3 points there? I hope you are right. "

No, I am not expecting 3 points on Saturday. I thought the question was 'Do you think we will still be top 6 after we play our first top 7 side?' We only need a draw to remain top 6 after the lunch-time kick off. At least until the remaining games play out, so, maybe we will.

"No Grant in terms of opposition I said it will be more difficult to accumulate wins against the top 7 teams than those outside or in the bottom half. You don't agree?"

Yes, in general I would agree. Although there is much more to it than that.

"Ask your friend Beto who you seemed to have disowned as only 1 of his 8 goals last season came against them."

Yes, it came against the best team in the country. If you can score against best what argument is there that you cant score against lesser sides?

"Grant 66.5 points over a season. Is that serious mathematical logic?"

Yes. If you divide 7 by 4 you get 1.75. Then multiply that by the number of games, 38. This comes to 66.5. What's mathematically illogical about it?

"We have played 4 teams outside the likely top 7 so far. Is this a prediction or just more waffle you won't stand over? I guarantee we won't accumulate 24.5 points or more from our fixtures with the top 7 (1.75 per game)"

I was just pointing out what our current form extrapolates to. I was not making any predictions.

"15 th best squad in the division? Really?"

I read an article that said we had the 15th best squad.

"Perhaps you are correct Jay, I mean Grant, and you didn't claim that he scores about 1 goal in every 2 games in terms of minutes played,"

Yes, he does. But as he has only played about 3 games worth of minutes this season in the league and would need to have scored an additional half a goal for the figures to work currently.

It's probably best to wait until he's played an even number of minutes worth of games before deciding whether it is still true for this season. Or just wait until the end of the season.

"and perhaps you didn't take offence to my claim that he wouldn't score 15 PL goals and that his purple patch coincided with the new manager bounce."

This argument clearly isn't true as he was starting to score again in the last few games of the season.

"I like Mike will stand by my claim that he wont get more than 10 PL goals."

I am sure your claim was that he wouldn't hit double figures. Or one of your claims anyway.

I also find it hard to give him Player of the Month on the basis of two and a bit games — there must have been at least six players who did more than Jack in those three games.

Who picks the players for these awards, or are they awarded on votes?

Enough said.

Fair enough to have that view, but the name-calling is just pathetic.