Neville hits out at 'scandalous' criticism of Stones

Stones can go wherever he wants to and walk into any team in the world that values talent. I hope our new manager can convince him to stay but if he goes, I look forward to watching him develop into a superstar.

As for Pip. Is he defending him cos "he's a Manchester United player" or because he really rates him so highly?

The really sad thing is I doubt we'll see him mature at Everton. If he stays lets give him 100% backing.

Martinez overplayed him last season, think he played in most if not all the 38 league games, when it was obvious he needed 'taking out the firing line'.

Our own fans can be truly vitriolic at times.

At the end, he was rightly getting stick because he was lazy and was not tracking back and he is unfit. The lad can't run 50 yards without being knackered. Don't come on here slagging fans off for telling it how it is – we have a right.

Hmmm... Is this an admission of guilt?

Admittedly I think he is right to an extent but Phill Neville was always talking up Man Utd when he was captain of Everton and I'm sure he'd do everything he could to hint at a better future at the club he loves.

So much misplaced kudos is given to having youth and potential in all sports that everyone gets very smug about it and place it above class and experience. Stones over Jags? Laughable.

From where I sit, I've never personally heard anyone calling Barkley because he's rated so highly and we do expect great things from him. Unfortunately, he hasn't delivered and even seems lucky to have gone to the Euros given his dip in form.

As for Neville saying Stones is a Man Utd-type player, what exactly is that? They've been shite for three seasons. He's another one who's had an indifferent season – moments of brilliance coupled with moments of madness defending. If he goes, so be it – he can be replaced

A defender who isn't that great at defending but maybe one day will be. And any fan who points this out is an idiot?

This is why we and England fail; the players feel like they've made it without achieving a thing (and at their wage, I suppose they have) but don't expect the fans to indulge them.

At the same time, I have heard some outrageous acts of racism as well over the years, are you going to deny that as well?

While I'm at it, can you tell me what exactly constitutes a player being 'lazy' in your eyes, obviously a fitness and nutrition expert.

As for Phil talking about him again, I wish the soft twat would shut up. It was only a fortnight ago he was saying that when he seen Stones for the first time he instantly seen him as a Man Utd player.

How disrespectful of an ex Everton captain.

Phil went down in my estimations that day!

I am fed up as other posters are, with being labeled moaners for voicing an opinion on what is 'the last time I looked,' a fan site for um posting opinions.

Well said Helen.

As for Stones going to the Euros over Jagielka ... Poor. Jagielka is by far the better, more consistent, defender at the moment.

As for the lambasting of fans opinions, my son and I follow every game home and away and as much as we long for Ross to come good, this season, since the Carlise cup game, he has shown little effort, fight or determination. I can't buy into the 'overplayed 'view either. Barry is 37 yet covers so much more ground and battles competitively to boot.

I suppose the trouble is we voice our contempt at the game thus damaging the players who have a delicate nature.

We're out of the Moyes era, Coco the clown has gone, the sky is the limit for Everton now but it is up to us fans, yes even TW's, to stop moaning and get behind the team and the club management. We don't know better than them and we need to accept that.

Well, I will continue to criticise when it's warranted. Also Stones shouldn't be in the Euro squad ahead of Jagielka, and Barkley on this season's form and fitness levels shouldn't be in it either.

The problem was that we had a manager who encouraged him to make mistakes, not to rectify them. Once we get a manager who understands that defending is a noble art too, he will get the right coaching and go on to become a much better player.

All I ever read about him is potential this and potential that but see mistakes made on a regular basis. I'm not expecting any player to be perfect but the hype around Stones is ridiculous imo. He may be able to pass a ball but he simply is not that great a defender – which supposedly is his position.

Lukaku gets murdered on these pages (rightly) for constantly going on about wanting to go to a bigger / Champions League club yet many would cry in a dark corner if Stones left, even though he put in a transfer request.

Personally I hope we sell both and the new manager brings in two decent hungry replacements who want to play for Everton.

As for Phillip 'diagonal floater' Neville, the less said the better.

Moyes put Baines, Lescott and Jags in the England team, Coleman in the Irish, and none of that was based on some notion of potential.

Koeman though has to be good for Stones.

Someone who can really put their foot through it and charge up to the half way line . . fuck all this taking it off the goalie lark. Turn your back on him and make him hoof it over your head

And most of all "defend properly" . . . Getridofthefuckinthing

That to me is slagging off fans who think he has been all of the above this season – and big deal if you have had a season ticket. I am not blind to what goes on at games either so don't pull the race card.

Oh and yes, I can constitute what a lazy player is – Lukaku.

Simple this coaching lark eh?

Keeping Stones and Lukaku will be good for our club, so I personally don't see why our new chairman would let them go.

I see your never ending love for Moyes burns as brightly as ever! If you read Martin's post carefully, I think you will find its was Señor Martinez he was referring to as Coco the Clown, not dour Dave!

However, to claim Stones made more progress under Moyes is a bit of a laugh as he didn't really get any game time until Martinez arrived. You must be a little tearful with the realisation that it's not going to be Moyes in charge next season...

Where did Stones say that?

Neville is a gobshite. Many of us agreed with Carragher.

As a defender he's got everything he needs going forward and with the ball at his feet. He needs a manager to toughen him up defensively.

I'm not saying that is all he should focus on but he has natural ability that will shine through whatever. Koeman if he comes could be the making of the boy. IF he stays!

The true greats always look great.

And you'd only know if Martin was referring to Martinez as Coco the Clown if you knew that's what he called him so... so obviously you're very close with Martin and have your own love affair. David is all mine!

As a central defender, you will not consistently see the best out of Stones until he his 28 (ish). He's 21 and we slate him if he doesn't perform with the consistency of an experienced professional all of the time. Likewise Ross; albeit you would expect a midfielder to mature earlier than a defender, although probably not until his mid-20s. Those who know the game will understand that.

Personally, I don't have issue and don't think it's anything to do with attitude, fitness or desire, it's just they don't yet have the experience or maturity to manage their game and perform to the best of their ability on a consistent basis; it will come be it for us or someone else as both are quality players.

And with specific regards to Ross, I will echo my previous sentiment; players like him only need to turn it on occasionally to turn a game. A tired example, but I spent as much time calling Kevin Sheedy a lazy shit as I did adoring his magic!! He never tracked back by the way but he won us games.

Be interesting to see how many 'stupid' clubs are interested in our young 'lazy' players if they become available for transfer eh.

Perhaps you could put them right though, after all, you seem to have made your mind up pretty conclusively.

The resulting laughter ripple would be on par with that caused by Tommy Cannon turning up, sans Ball, and 'treating' you to a bit of impromptu stand-up in your living room.

Take a straw poll of every manager, of every club, in every top league in Europe and how many do you think would opt for taking Jagielka instead of Stones in a 'you can sign one now for nowt' contest?

For the match winning stuff to shine through we have give them the ball, neither are not always to be blame.

Sheedy was for the most part in a side that won alot of games, and a different era. Both players get stick simply for a perceived laziness I grant, but still without the ball, like Sheedy it can feel like playing with nine men

To this tie this back to Stones, a third player rightly feted as a talented propsect who has had the best part of three seasons in a demanding league to adapt, responsibility does lie with JS to improve himself regardless of the manager. Even when things were going well under Martinez none the of the players were exempt from the failings others on the thread have pointed out.

So sure they deserve the stick they get, I would just like to see them take responsibility as individuals to change, adapt and improve regardless of the teams position. Perhaps thats were the real criticsim lies, I do wonder if any of the three players mentioned are mentally tough enough irrespective of their talent?

Good debate though!

As per usual your response doesn't make a lot of sense. You stated that Moyes was responsible for getting Jagielka, Lescott and Baines playing for England (I'm not sure I'd agree with that, but let's suppose your assertions are right) and yet you claim Stones made no progress under Martinez hasn't Stones been an England regular and didn't we reject a bid of 40 million for him whilst Martinez was manager.

I'm not defending Martinez just pointing out that your logic is contradictory at best, although your defence and support of Moyes over all issues verges on adulation.. Have you a thing for Ginger men Nick it's fine it is the 21st century.

Koeman was an excellent defender, if he can get John Stones back into the player he should be progressing into having been ruined by Martinez then all well and good.

With him in the side and when he struggles, naturally it excerbates, ney elminates RB & RL from the game, because we're defending more, something even the advocates of Ross & Rom like yourself know we've not seen enough of.

What I do want is both Rom & Ross regardless of 'what' stage of their development to realise when on the pitch its not going for them they try to influence the game in some other way, I don't see that from either and thats on them whether they're 18,21 or 32. I cite Rooney there!

And the very best, which maybe Stones & Ross can be, don't stint on otherwise they are one dimensional players are they not?

Time will tell, but of the three Stones will be one who has all the medals, Rom a nomad who scores goals and will become a pan European mercenary. Ross, this lad could go either way, despite his tender years I think if the penny doesn't drop soon it he will fade from view. He as the touch of the Rodwells about him...harsh I know

Surely the reason he's not hurtling around the pitch is one or the other and not both?

If he's unfit, that's clearly not his doing. Do you think he's skipping training sessions to sit at home and eat Mars bars?

Ross Barkley, lost his way, no guidance, poor coaching, doing what he has been told to do by a deluded coach, well and truly "Martinezed"

Rom Lukaku, arrogant young man who believes his own hype. Has much to learn, knows where the net is, has benefited from one on one coaching from Duncan Ferguson but has decided he knows better than anyone else where he should play, how he should play and how good he is. Unfinished article.

Kevin Mirallas, a good player but surely pissed off Martinez, surprised he is still at the club but glad he is. Another well and truly "Martinezed"

There have been others but this is where we are at the moment.

I can't say I would be happy to lose any of the above players if I am honest. They ALL have the necessary skills to improve our team. The key to them staying is the new manager, the reason they wanted to go was the old one.

Barkley has some quality but its very doubtfull he will ever be the player we all hoped as football brains cannot be learnt and if he don't know when to release the ball now he never will. Just my two pence worth and I'm wrong.

As for Sheedy not tracking back, take a look at Bayern's 1st (only) goal and tell me who is sliding in on the goal line trying to keep it out...I'm sure it wouldn't have been a one off. In 'proper teams' - teams that win stuff, everybody defends to some degree...unlike last season... even going back to Charlton, Law and Young, in proper teams even 'fancy dans' defend.

It does strike me as no coincidence that two former players of the same club which is now managed by someone who tried to sign Stones last season seem to be saying that he would be better off and more highly regarded at another club.

If there is an upside it is that it may lead to a bidding war between the Manchester clubs but before there can be an auction there has to be a seller. Let's hope our new manager is not.

"Simple this coaching lark"

Except no coach has produced such a defender in this country for decades . . Certainly not the coach you adored and backed for for three seasons . . .

Still at least your maths stands up - buy a top class player for 20m and sell the shite one for 40

Genius . . why didnt anyone else think of that ?

One example in how many years? I like many can make history and statistics fit my argument. For the record, I idolised Kevin Sheedy, I was just drawing out a general observation (not specific example) of how gifted players aren't always the ones who will "put a shift in".

Lets agree to have a different opinion. Lazy / unfit / over-bulked / still developing, whatever you want to call it. I think Ross Barkley has potential and will come good. Likewise Stones; different criticism of him, but will develop into a top defender. They just aren't there yet and possibly / probably won't be for a while yet.

As to the criticism of Lukaku on here, I don't disagree with much of it. Arrogance, selfishness.....erm he's a striker!!

Koeman, if he comes, will straighten a few of them out but not Lukaku – he's a mercenary.

As for its all Martinez fault that Stones started making mistakes, he played good most of the time earlier in the season didn't he, that's when he gained his reputation, same with Barkley he played well enough earlier in the season under the same manager.

Everyone seems to just ignore the fact the guy wants out and I believe is a Man Utd fan anyway.

Regardless of potential I think we can all agree that he is not the finished article now. Question is do you take £40m and buy a couple of players who are or 'nuture' Stones along with his regular mistakes for another 2-3 years in the hope (by no means certainty) he'll come good?

Personally I'd take the former every time, especially as he wants out anyway. Had he come through the academy and was a fan id be willing to cut him some slack. We also have the small thing of a new stadium to finance so we don't have the luxury of sitting on £40m hoping it may come good in the distant future.

Let him bugger off to Manchester, he'll be easily replaced by someone who can defend properly now.

I'd much rather that than someone who has not yet even been the subject of a single bid mouthing off multiple times about a yet to materialise move, making statements about which clubs he would consider a fitting stage for him to strut his stuff and generally speaking like Everton are an utter irrelevance with no input whatsoever on whether a transfer eventually takes place.

Look what Kendall did. He just played players in their correct positions, had them hunting in packs at the back and in the middle. Two strikers, not one! Forget the European formations.

4-4-2 is what we need with a manager who can manage. Dead simple. We have the dosh now too so look forwards and get rid of the dead wood. I really believe we will beat the Red Shite twice next season and the Mancs.

Give me one John Stones any day over the likes of Shawcross, Dann, Smalling etc....mistakes and all.

You missed out the line where the logic is qualified and not contradictory. I'm sure you weren't just changing the subject because you were shown up for being wrong. Just do as you asked of me and read carefully.

I can be condescending too, don't you know.

You don't think the club may have told him he's not being sold even IF he puts in a request? He still did in the hope it would get him his wish but it didn't.

Fact is he wanted out, regardless of how it's sugar coated. Also I disagree that he just 'got on with it'. His was crap after that and played poorly for a long time into the season.

Had any other player put in a transfer request, he'd have been lynched but it's okay cos it's Stones, who's apparently destined to be the greatest CB of all time. The Pele of defending....

He'll hopefully be wearing a red jersey in 2 months time and we'll be better for it.

If Lukaku, does what he keeps saying he wants to do, and leave, then we'll have a lot of money for our manager to decide who to spend it on. If he stays, I'd be extremely surprised but we will have another young player who the manager will expect more from.

I like John Stones, I think he is a great player in the making and I hope we keep him (if we can.) He has made mistakes and he isn't always in the right position when defending corners but I think these weaker points can be vastly improved. I think we have a player very much like a young Alan Hansen and he was probably the best of his generation. Jags has been a decent player but I think now we should be looking for the best partner available for Stonesy (if he stays).

Ross, well I'm not sure about. Undoubtedly a talented lad but in my view he needs to be coached very much on his role in the team. He seemed to have been left to his own devices regarding aspects other than dribbling and passing. But now we will see whether the talent he has, can be developed rather than wasted.

The whole landscape has changed with Farhad Moshiri taking control and if Koeman or similar, comes in. John Stones, Ross Barkley and maybe Rom Lukaku, will get the knowledge and direction from a top manager and top coaches and will also be playing in a team with an increasing number of top class players coming into the team. I hope all three of them want to stay and be part of the beginning of our resurgence.

He perhaps should have kept his gob shut and acted like Stones who showed maturity beyond his years during the possible transfer to Chelsea, but Lukaku has a belief in himself (perhaps an overvalued sense of his greatness as well) but he is a young man and they will be queuing up to get him.

We have 3 very talented young players and it would be a shame to see them go, when we are going to get the best coaching staff and top players available coming into the club.

1) What is a defender's priority, what is his main role?

2) Would you select Stones on his defending ability if he could not play football?

In a nutshell, he is not a good defender. He is being selected on potential,"he will learn". He has played for two seasons now. He makes the same mistakes in every game.

Let's make it 3 questions: David Luis cost £50 million. His centre-back partner Thiago Silva £32 million. Which one would you take? You don't need to be a genius to work that one out.

We need a centre-half who stops the ball going between the white posts and into the netting more often than not. You don't need to be a coach to work that out.

Looks like the lad I mentioned is going to Utd.

The special one is about to take the cheaper option if the story is correct. Genius.

What's post 30 all about? Got to be sarcasm?

"I still don't understand why Barkley is slated for being unfit and lazy.

Surely the reason he's not hurtling around the pitch is one or the other and not both?

If he's unfit, that's clearly not his doing. Do you think he's skipping training sessions to sit at home and eat Mars bars?:

So Ernie, you're telling me he's not fit enough to run two-three yards to try to tackle an opposition player? This is lazy. People are also saying hus overall fitness levels are not good enough. Of course it can be both.

You also say being unfit is not his doing? Are you serious? Goidness sake. I was an amateur athlete - I was super fit. He can get himself fit!

So there you have it; they were just lazy.

FFS Howard Kendall was in a cup final at 17. Joe Royle was playing in the top flight at 16, Rooney was an England regular at 18, Alan Ball was a world cup winner before he was 21.

If the players are still at the "potential" stage they shouldnt be playing international or regular Premier league games.

We need to stop making excuses for players and coach them, properly and have them fit and understanding their roles something MArtinez seemed incapable of doing.

The players you mention probably had their ups and downs / ins and outs too; unusually on this site, I'm in a position to claim I was too young to have seen them play - a generation before me but I'm sure in their younger years they were far from the accomplished professionals they went on to become.

Also, they are all forwards / midfielders, so your point is more valid aimed at Ross, however defenders mature later in life so Stones will remain in the potential bracket for a while yet.

1. The CH is the most important position in the team - if you have a good one you are halfway there.

2. If your CH just lumps it out (which they have to do sometimes), you're probably defending again within 15 seconds

3. If your CH can pass it out, you're on the attack.

4. Stones is a baby in CH terms - most don't mature till their late twenties and they go on to mid or late thirties.

5. Our new manager (I assume) was a world class defender, so Stones will presumably get the defensive coaching he never had before.

6. He is under contract to us and isn't going anywhere until Messrs Foeman and Moshiri say he is.

7. How many CHs can you name who can defend and set up attacks? Moore, Beckenbauer, Baresi, Passarella, Kroll, Scirea - of course Stones isn't in that company yet, but one day he may be.

Conclusion - we have an uncut diamond in our wallet and we would be crazy to sell at any price.

Absolutely spot on. You've got your work cut out trying to convince the members of the flat earth society though

"I still don't understand why Barkley is slated for being unfit and lazy.

Surely the reason he's not hurtling around the pitch is one or the other and not both?"

The third explanation is that he simply isn't that switched on. I don't doubt his desire, or the hours he puts in on the training pitch, I just get the impression that he doesn't know how to contribute effectively when he's off the ball. He looks a little bit lost a little bit too often. Either that or he thinks his role is to wait until the ball comes to him and then it's action stations.

No doubt in years to come it will be known as 'The Martinez Effect'.

Comparisons between performances of Alli and Barkley seem valid for many reasons. Main differences last year could be simply down to confidence and the management team. Spurs were flying at one point. Everton were....not.

Whoever the new Management team is, it will be interesting to see, if given the chance, how they will tackle the situation and get the best out of our players.

He could pick the ball up from defence and whatever his youthful shortcomings are we know he can hold and carry the ball and/or pick a pass, he can be very creative. He can pick a forward and accurate pass which McCarthy cannot. Stick a decent, tall, brute of a centre back with the ability to bully strikers but capable of a 10 yard pass alongside Jags and move Stones up to DM. I'm pretty sure it would be the making of him.....and help solve some of our midfield woes.

Providing Moshiri gets his man and providing Stones stays, he could have the ultimate mentor to guide him.

That tackle on Ronaldo wasn't in his '1st season' at Goodison, it was during 2008/09 which was Neville's fourth season with us.

One thing that really sticks in my mind about him was when we won that penalty shoot-out against United at Wembley, while us fans and our players were going mental, he at first ignored our celebrations, much prefering to go over the Manc players and commiserate with them.

Couldn't pass, couldn't dribble . . . couldn't play.
His performance against Wigan (the one which landed Martinez the gig ) was as rank as I have ever seen at any level. He was THEIR most dangerous player that day

The fact that he's a Manc should count against him. The fact that he was a really crap Manc Does count against him. To think ? Rooney went one way and he came the other ? . . .even now its enough to make you weep

I feel sick when I hear peopl say what a great leader he was. Great leaders win things. They do not cower and wilt like he did at Wembley. A great leader should also be able to boast the occasional win at the homes of the big boys - Neville registered none

A disagreeable little Yes man who completely embraced the TGT'S percentage game. trouble was, It all went downhill for him when somebody gave him the fucking ball . .I cant even think of him without remembering that painfully embarrassing dive against the Shite

Why the fuck are we even debating him ?

He even made Simon Davies only look mildly shite. Great summer of transfers that was......

There are some players I have just loved watching playing football in an Everton shirt - Colin Harvey, Martin Dobson, Kevin Sheedy and Trevor Steven spring to mind. They all took stick in their time, but were footballers who played with style - Stones is out of the same mould.