Baines suffers set-back in recovery from injury

Whilst accepting Bryan Oviedo hasn't hit the heights he achieved before his leg break, he hasn't been out-and-out awful as some suggest.

Baines (when fully fit) would always be my first choice, but Oviedo was not given the runaround by Man City for the full 90 minutes. He stuck to his task well and for me gained the eventual upper hand on whoever came down his flank.

It now appears Bryan will get an extended run in the side. I hope both he, and the team, can benefit from that.

My own view is that he was good enough before his injury and, given time and games, he could be so again.

It does appear that Koeman has faith in him.

Burnley are hardly prolific and it would give either Holgate or Funes Mori some much needed game time.

Oviedo WAS given the run around & Gueye had to double up to help him. Totally out of his comfort zone, just not enough class.

Need to promote either Connolly, Kenny or Foulds if Funes Mori is not slotted in.

It was just plain embarrassing; the amount of times Sanè got a better of Oviedo. Call it lack of game time for Oviedo, but I haven't seen Sanè start for Man City this season.

Not too fussed though as next week will be an easier task.

Galloway is off on loan, do we have any other youth waiting in the wings for that position? I guess I'll cheer on Oviedo to make his mark, Funes Mori is NOT a left back compared to him!

"Oviedo was not given the runaround by City for the full 90 minutes. He stuck to his task well and for me gained the eventual upper hand on whoever came down his flank."

Implicit in that (IMO) is an acknowledgement that – yes – he faced some difficult moments in the game, but also that he stuck to his task well.

What do you think is the implication in your own observation and claim that, seemingly having bested Bryan in the first half, Sane switched wings and was replaced with 30 minutes remaining by a manager as astute, ambitious and ruthless in pursuit of victory as Guadiola?

The only other alternative would be to play 3 at the back with Funes Mori (also a concern) and Bolasie (or Lennon) and Coleman as wing backs.

That could be the way to go if we want the 3 points at Burnley.

During that first half, I watched heart in mouth as Sane sliced Oviedo apart. He is out of his depth – you only have to cast your minds back to the train wreck at Anfield last season and Oviedo's major part in it to confirm this fact.

Surely Mason Holgate can adapt to playing on the left side, he is all class from what I saw in the first few games of the season.

Prior to Bryan's injury he looked at fine player, but since he's come back he looks to have lost something. Nothing against the him because he's obviously got a great attitude but I do feel he's a bit of a weak link.

"Oviedo is out of his depth – you only have to cast your minds back to the train wreck at Anfield last season and Oviedo's major part in it to confirm this fact."

A couple of things: First, this constitutes opinion, not fact as you state.

Secondly, the debacle at Anfield had many more contributing factors to it than solely Oviedo's presence, as you wish to imply.

The Martinez experiment was in full meltdown. It was a few days before the Wembley semi-final. Jags and Coleman were crocked. Baines played left back and Oviedo – not fully fit himself – was played in an unfamiliar role at right back.

Neither centre back who started the game completed it. Funes-Mori sent off, Stones retired with a squidgy bum.

Oviedo is the obvious choice still available at the club to cover for Leighton at left back, unless Koeman jiggles the formation and goes with 3 at the back rather than a flat back four which has been his preference until now.

I, for one am willing to give him time to get up to speed and prove to us that he is worth his place.

But do we go 3 at the back? Williams, Jagielka & Holgate and find player to fit in there or play Oviedo? I think he is better suited the position of wing back but is a weak player. Easy to target, often beaten for pace.

Myself, I would look elsewhere in the squad, even in the short-term. As, long-term, this is likely to recur given Baines's now increasing injury record.

Galloway can't be brought back and Oviedo needs competition, Garbutt can easily provide it.

Niasse a no-brainer, you bag goals at the rate he has for the U23 and you're brought into the first-team squad.

Puzzling decision to send young Galloway out on loan with Baines's fitness not what it once was.

Whilst not a great lover of Oviedo either, nor do I think he has been as bad as some on here would suggest. Playing Holgate, a centre-half by trade, is a total non-starter for me.

Funes Mori isn't a left-back in any way, shape, or form and Galloway is unavailable for the season unless I am mistaken? Isn't Connolly a left-back, though? Surely he would be worth a go?

Personally I am happy for Oviedo to continue there, at least until Baines returns anyway. But, in the long-term, I think it's time we looked for a new left-back altogether, or give one of the kids a chance. I no longer think Baines is top quality. ity,but that,s just my opinion.

I agree with some on here that, like his previous game, Bryan grew into the game.

Stekelenburg
Jagielka, Williams, Funes Mori
Coleman, Barry, Gana, Bolasie, Davies
Mirallas, Lukaku

In case Davies looks that he is not yet ready (very unlikely though), we have Barkley, Cleverley, or Deulofeu to sub him.

Galloway apparently hasn't impressed Pulis at WBA. He was subbed off a month ago and hasn't played since... lost his place to Nyom. Still starting for England U21.

All I can do is laugh when people suggest Garbutt. He was a crash-and-burn failure last year at Fulham and is shaping up the same at Wigan, where he was subbed off in his third game and has sat out the last seven on the bench. Jeez, people, give up on this guy already.

The only thing funnier is the Holgate-at-left-back suggestion.

Not suggesting Oviedo is the answer as a first choice left back in a title winning side, but let's not write Bryan off just yet as cover and allowing us time to find a replacement for Baines as Leighton reaches the autumn of his career.

Regardless of our considered and varied opinions of Bryan, he doesn't give up nor does his head drop.

Spot on mate...

I'm not Oviedo's biggest fan, but even though Sane ribboned him a few times early on, Brian grew into the game, dealing with a City overload down the left hand side without it creating any real chances for City, let alone a goal for City.

Yes, Gana had to help him out, but we had no cover from any left-sided midfielder so clearly a full-back needs support.

Drew O'Niel (#34).

Are you mad ?

Baines was one of the best full backs in the world, and Man Utd bid £12m!

Baines created more chances than any player in the Premier League for 3 seasons, more assists than any full back in world football for 2 seasons and then Man Utd bid £12m!

Also he's still got plenty to offer, he just needs to shake off the rust after a few bad injuries.

Baines is one of Everton's finest players and most loyal servants of the modern era, let's show the lad some respect. Let's be serious.

Drew @ 34; Serious dose of hindsight there. The offer was derisory – even for back then, we've had our money's worth from Baines... as has he from us obviously, but that's the nature of the beast.

Unless his legs go totally Osman-esque, there's nobody better at the Club... at the moment. He may just need 'managing' on his fitness / over-use... a bit like Barry – until we can effectively replace him.

Just another of the tasks for Koeman & Walsh to prioritise then sort out.

Still, that's what they get the big bucks for.

I'd like to see Lennon given a chance to show what he can do this weekend as I feel he's the one player who hasn't really been given a chance so far. It will be interesting to see if Koeman uses McCarthy now as a sub most games for a tiring Barry or to close a game out.

I'd be very tempted to give one of Connolly or even Antonee Robinson a chance to see if they could be Baines's successor which I don't think Oviedo is. He's a useful squad player who will do a job but, if Baines is out for a while longer, then it would be nice to give a run to one of the youngsters to see if any of them look ready...

However, this is what can happen when you give a 29-year-old left-back a 4-year deal. Although I was happy when he signed and am still happy he's at Everton as he is still very good, when fit.

I also think he probably can play holding in a couple of years. He's got a very good football brain and excellent, penetrative distribution.

Long term though, we need two left backs.

Pienaar and Baines were a great double act. Since Pienaar's demise, Baines has had the left side practically to himself as no partnership has been built up with Mirallas, Cleverley et al. Therefore Baines has been overloaded which leads to extra stress on the body.

With Martinez, it was his "Let's not defend" policy that lead to Baines and Coleman both suffering and not performing to their high standards. They have both had injury problems / loss of performance over the past two seasons and into this one.

Given time, I expect Baines will return to full fitness and better performances. Partnerships need to be built up on both wings, which will lead to us getting the most out of Baines and Coleman.

With regards to Oviedo, I thought he started poorly on Saturday but he got better and better as the game went on. I reckon he will do us a job on Saturday at Turf Moor.

If Galloway is not wanted by Tony Pulis, bring him back asap.

As for Galloway, I too was impressed with him last season... but if Koeman shipped him out on loan and Pulis now has him nailed to the bench behind a very average player, there's a reason.

The #1 requirement for that position is physicality, toughness in the tackle. Barry, Gueye, Macca, Besic all have it. Baines does not. At all.

After being run ragged by Sane in the first half, he actually managed to look even more venerable in the second. I can think of at least three occasions where Sterling went past him as if he wasn't there, he was equally susceptible to balls inside him. Only a combination of fantastic interceptions by central defenders and Sterling's customary woeful final delivery stopped City destroying us down that side.

Oviedo has always been a favourite of mine and he is still pretty decent with the ball, but that was an awful injury, one I fear he will never fully recover from; he may have the occasional half decent game but he will always be easy prey for wingers who want to take him on. He's lost the sharpness in his turn. I've never wanted to be wrong about a player as I do now... but I'm not.

Holgate is two-footed; he can do as accomplished a job down the left as he did when he replaced Seamus, he is powerful, classy and more to the point, he's full of himself.

No-brainer for me.

How can you say that Baines was 'one of Europe's best left backs'? What did he do for England? What did England achieve with Baines in the side ... the handful of times he was selected?

I can't understand Evertonians hyping the likes of Baines (Barkley included), as if they were going to be inducted into the hall of fame, as great Everton achievers. A great player is somebody who has won silverware and helped his Club and Country win also. He is also held in high esteem, not only by the fans of his Club and Country, but also by fans of other Clubs and Countries.

I am not knocking Baines, by any means. He has played some great games for us... but let's not get carried away. Look at Barkley! He was walking on water for some Everton Fans, for a while, but now, he is collecting splinters!

Others were lauding Deulofeu and Mirallas, But these players have reached their limit a long time ago and have nothing left to offer, other than help us achieve the dizzy heights of an 11th-place finish.

We have to be realistic and ruthless, otherwise we will stay as forever also-rans...

Tin hat at the ready!

Check out the 20 minutes highlights on the official club site:

Link

Watch from around 12:40, after McCarthy comes on for Deulofeu. De Bruyne fires in a cross, well defended in the centre by Jags. The ball flies out to Oviedo, tight to the touchline, just outside the area, with his back to De Bruyne who flies in to close him down. Bryan turns and – cool as you like, even with such little space to work with – flicks the ball over the in-rushing Belgian (who tries to foul Oviedo). Oviedo shrugs him off and speeds up the flank, passing a crisp ball to the feet of Lukaku, who came 20-30 metres deep into our half to help out. Rom takes one touch to control the ball, then lays the ball off to Gueye... and the rest you might remember – up to Bolasie, flicked on to Lukaku... goal!

All started from the cool, crisp, controlled play and thinking by... Bryan Oviedo.

I was going to post a link, but no need... we all saw the game, some prefer to take in the whole half (game) into consideration. The desperate to be right will of course home in on a single moment.

Forget the fact that he was on a spit all afternoon – let's concentrate on the thing he did right... because that's the "positive" thing to do.

Fortunately, Koeman has a brain.

Bryan Oviedo is doing okay.

It pains me to criticise Oviedo, I love the guy, so I won't do it anymore. My observations are not based not just on the Man City game but on all of his performances since THAT injury. Not many come back from those injuries, they are not just physical, they will scar a player mentally.

Ask yourself this; If you were a right winger, who would you rather face? A powerful, confident, pacey, athletic, two footed Holgate... or a full back who has been top notch in his day, but has shown little (no) sign of getting back to where he was?

I hate the Mancs even more than I hate the Red Shite... Oviedo gave me one of my most treasured memories. God bless him... but these roastings? No more, please

I do have a special fondness for Oviedo for the exact reason you mentioned. I share your hate of Man Utd, and that Old Trafford goal is perhaps my greatest memory ever as a Blue. Tears of joy. I still like to go on YouTube and watch the cellphone videos a couple of our supporters shot from behind the goal that night. When the ball goes in... insanity.

For what it's worth, I think he's showing definite signs. He's regained his starting job for Costa Rica and he was outstanding last month in the World Cup qualifier against Panama. I assume he'll be starting against the US next month in San Jose.

I'm in the "liking Oviedo" camp – he seems to start slowly but does get into the game. Hopefully he will become more consistent (and soon!)

Holgate at left back – I'm sure Koeman has thought about it (even worked on it in training). He's the guy with the insider knowledge and I respect his decision – which ever one he makes.

Holgate has experience of playing right across the back four. I've seen him do a stint at left-back. Don't let your opinion be limited to what you have seen... There's more.

Have a cup of tea.

I'm with you in the "pro Oviedo" camp, he'd have been some player without the accidental injury. In fact, he WAS some player.

"Not many come back from those injuries, they are not just physical, they will scar a player mentally."

It's also worth remembering that Barkley had a triple leg break that almost finished his career yet some cut him no slack at all.

I do agree with Andy that the kid is gold. Definitely wouldn't bet against him cracking the centre-back rotation next season... after Funes Mori inevitably departs in hopes of saving his Argentina career.

As for Oviedo, we'll know in four weeks if he's truly up for it. After Burnley, West Ham and Chelsea, he's got the two qualifiers against Trinidad and the US. He'll have to go 90 in all five games, against wide men the likes of Antonio, Willian, Wood and Pulisic.

I'm betting he comes good.

Did I really just read that Darren Hind wrote: "The desperate to be right will of course home in on a single moment..?"

This from someone frequently given to "I told you so!" claims, sometimes YEARS after an event.

This from someone who, when offered links to view hard evidence counter to his own set, prejudiced position, responded: "I won't look at it because it may prove my position wrong."

Looking through this thread, the most extreme dismissive position towards Oviedo is taken by those who believe he had a mare for the full 90 minutes, such as Darren who offers "the fact (no less, not mere opinion for Mr Hind) is that he was on a spit all afternoon."

The contrary opinion expressed by many is – yes, Bryan had a challenging start to the game (as did the whole team, as acknowledged by Koeman who re-shaped the formation after 20 minutes as our top 3 wasn't restricting their back 3 and their game plan enough), but also that Oviedo grew into the game.

Rather ironic, then, that those who did prefer to take in the whole game into consideration and, on that basis, cut Bryan some slack, are criticized for doing just that, as opposed to someone fabricating (as fact, no less...) that "he was on a spit all afternoon."

He most certainly was not.

No more "let's wait and see..." The last three years caused no end of unprecedented anger and vitriol I've never seen associated with an Everton manager.

Oviedo isn't good enough of he plays then good luck to him, he will be replaced in the next two windows.

Decent player not up to the physicality of the Premier League. He will do great in France or Holland.

Suggestions for a new left-back?

Thanks for the offers, but, I had a few bottles while watching John Stones, not a wet day out of footballing nappies, try to take on the most creative and ruthless trio in world Club football.

Thanks for the millions, Pep!

Most teams are trying to play with 3 at the back in some games but the ''wingbacks'' have to really do a good job in covering when not in possession.

Everton do have options with Funes Mori and Holgate ready to step in but at wingback they seem to be limited. The likes of Mirallas, Deulofeu and Lennon do not defend that well.

Thank about how many times last season Roberto Martinez pulled him off late in the game... and we then conceded a goal down that same side.

You might want to get those sides of yours looked at, they seem to be causing you some grief.

I don't know which to laugh at most: your hypocrisy or your inability to understand what happens when two football teams take to the field; your desperation to be right is so apparent when you get all scratchy eyes out, with personal attacks, it's as if you think by abandoning the point and attacking the person you can create a diversion. Do you realise how ridiculous you look with all that copying and pasting every time you disagree with somebody?

Oviedo is a very popular figure, nobody enjoyed seeing him put on a spit and roasted time and time again in BOTH halves on Saturday. I was surrounded by hundreds of Evertonians who winced when Sterling took 2-3 yards off him in a 20-yard foot race (right in the middle of a period where you were seeing him "get the upper hand"). I lost count of the number of people on the way back who said things along the lines of "Poor old Ovie is a shadow of himself".

The thing is, everyone saw him get murdered time and again in both halves, and if they didn't see it, they can watch it again. I'm actually struggling to remember a time (in either half) when somebody tried and failed to get past him, such was his lack of power and pace. YOU, on the other hand dismiss another posters opinion with this gem: "Oviedo was not given the runaround for the full 90 minutes, he stuck to his task well and for me gained the eventual upper hand on whoever came down his flank" .... "Gained the upper hand"? Did you watch this match on the radio? If that's him getting the upper hand, I'd hate to see him get the back ripped out of him. I don't think I have ever seen a full back passed so often and so easily throughout a game.

Why don't you give Tug of War a whirl? Okay, it's not edge-of-the-seat stuff from a spectators point of view, but it's a lot less taxing on the brain than this footie lark.

"Gained the upper hand" ... 'kinell...

I saw a lot of Holgate before he had made his debut. Your point doesn't make any sense. Are you really saying he can't be tried at left back because he hasn't played there for the first team before? If every manager adopted that attitude, nobody would ever make their debut.

The guy had never played right back for the first team until Koeman played him there "cold" as you put it... and he filled in admirably.

Denigrate another poster by 'laughing' at their opinion – check!

Accuse the other of hypocrisy whilst ignoring your own – check!

Further denigrate a poster's inability to understand football, implying your judgement is superior and absolute – check!

Claim the other forgoes reasonable debate and resorts to personal attacks, whilst actually indulging in the same yourself – check!

Accuse the other of going off topic and creating a diversion, whilst indulging in a wacky stream of consciousness far removed from reasoned debate – check!

Claim the other looks ridiculous for having the audacity to hold an opinion that differs from your own – check!

Not a Full House – plenty more stereotypical lines in your lexicon, Darren – but surely a line, worthy of at least a cuddly toy, wouldn't you say?

And there's me thinking you were sincere in your claim that you never read my comments. Aw ... Bless!

It's not the painfully long-winded gibberish such as post #76. It's not that you have a different opinion, many people do.

It's the utter stupidity of making a claim like "Oviedo was getting the upper hand "on Saturday. It's like you just watched the Fraizier/Foreman fight and are adamant that Smoking Joe was coming back into it. Opinion? Well you would argue it is, but it's inherent nonsense. You may just as well come on arguing Wales is bigger than China... "in your OPINION"!

You didn't just offer an opinion – you insisted that somebody was wrong... even though they were stating the blindingly fucking obvious – it's right up there.

This is a footy forum, lad... one where people agree and disagree. If you think posting nine paragraphs without even mentioning Everton, Oviedo, or even football will sway the debate in your favour then you go for it.
Expect a whole load of posts along the lines of "Yeah, you're right, Jay, let's ignore the evidence of our own eyes. Oviedo deffo got the upper hand on Saturday... He pissed all over them."

Patrick @ 2, Myself @ 3, Lev @ 9, Brian @ 16, Eddie @ 18, Don @ 23, Ian @ 24, Mike @ 27, Julian @ 28, Andy @ 35, Jack @ 42, Eddie @ 54, Tony @ 57.

All of us acknowledge Bryan had a challenging 1st half, but also that he improved and stuck to his task well in the second.

Many (including myself) also acknowledge since his leg break he hasn't recaptured the form he had shown before that.

Many (including myself) also speak in support of him saying he has not been as bad as some paint him.

So, to paraphrase you, by your own blunt criteria that makes for a good number of 'stupid idiots' on this thread.

Glad to number myself amongst them, rather than be in your zero, absolutist camp.

And thanks for giving me a chance to complete another line in Darren Hindsight Bingo.

Nonsensical analogy - check!

Attributing to another poster opinions and claims they haven't made - check!

Failing to diferentiate between fact and opinion - check!

Do I get upgraded from a cuddly toy to a tranny (radio!) ..?

Flattered you continue to read and reply to a poster you claim to ignore.

Happy head-wobbling! Ehrm ... 'lad.'

Nobody but you was daft enough to claim Oviedo got the "eventual upper hand on whoever came down his side" Do you want to know why? Because they all saw the ease and the regularity with which he was beaten.

Sure, people will sympathise with and support him, he's a very popular payer who has suffered a horrific injury. Amongst the many posters you try to claim are in agreement with you are people who, by their own admission, didn't even see the game. Most simply asked for more understanding; of the very few who actually said he improved, I would bet they were talking about his play WITH the ball. Let's face it, that wasn't hard, he hardly got a kick in the first half.

Fact is; Despite your claims that you have all these people agreeing wholeheartedly with you, nobody else has been prepared to deny the evidence of their own eyes. Why? Because despite their obvious fondness for the guy, they saw how many times he was roasted.

If they all come on here and say "No, Jay's spot on... City players did not scorch past him repeatedly in the second half on Saturday" then you can then say (justifiably) that they are in agreement with you. If they don't, your attempt to camouflage the stupidity of your claim in a crowd will be laid bare... no hiding place in the shitehouse lad

BTW; Your manic copy-and-paste posts have not suddenly become my choice of reading. There is a very good reason I am reading them on this thread, can you guess what it is?

Yeessss, that's right – it's because you're addressing them to me.

You are a self-parody of someone "desperate to be right" (copyright, Darren Hind Inc.).

From your last post, together with your earlier observations, you clearly possess sensory and metal powers beyond mere mortals.

You now (effectively) claim powers of mind reading, projecting onto others as their own, your belief that "yeah, well, what they are saying is that Oviedo's play WITH the ball improved, 'cos defensively, he was shite and (FACT!) on a spit ALL afternoon."

Nope! Nobody but you has said that at all in this thread. And unlike you, I make no claim (as you assert) that other posters are in agreement with me. Distorting the opinions of others to make it appear they agree with you. Another one to check off on my Darren Hindsight Bingo card.

Then, from earlier in the thread, we have this beaut - your super-human visionary and auditory powers to see and hear hundreds ... countless Evertonians wincing and tutting about Oviedo's performance.

Now I'm guessing pretty much every poster on this site has probably attended a live sport event at some time. And I'm pretty sure the majority would, at most, probably share and exchange opinions of the match day experience with family, mates, fellow spectators in close vicinity and in the pre- and post-pub sessions. That would number around ... what? 4-15 people..?

But no. You try to give weight to your opinion by fabricating it is one shared not by a handful of people, not even tens of people, but hundreds. I sense I'm closing in on another line on my Bingo card.

Your last post continues to claim how ALL saw the ease and regularity with which he was beaten.

Let me share with you an extremely useful app (androids only, but with tweaking, it's possible to view on a PC also) I've flagged up on TW before - Stats Zone. It gives detailed breakdown of every event in a game, thanks to the GPS vests and tracking technology clubs now use.

You can see team or individual stats and even view a video graphic of both and make comparisons between players' performances.

These are the FACTS. Not opinion, but cold, hard data that all professional clubs now use, to counter the claims you make about the frequency and timing Oviedo was beaten by Sane and Sterling and that Bryan barely got a touch in the first half.

In the first half, Bryan completed 9 out of 13 passes, reduced to 6/10 in the second. He made 1 in 2 successful tackles in the first half, 3 in 5 in the second. He made 2 in 2 successful interceptions against Sane in the first half and 3 in 3 successful blocked crosses against Sterling in the second half.

Let's now look at the City players Bryan faced down his flank. Sane had 2 out of 6 successful take ons against Bryan in the first 10 minutes of the game. He didn't best Bryan again for the remainder of the game. Sane attempted 4 crosses in the game. Only one was successul, and that was in the second half down the flank Coleman was defending.

Sterling, who switched to Bryan's flank in the second half, failed with all 7 of his crosses. He had 8 take ons in the game, 2 failed in the first half (against Seaumus) and 2 out of 6 successful take ons against Bryan in the second half. Sterling failed to take on and beat Seaumus in 4 attempts from the 60th minute of the game ... the final 30 minutes game play in total.

Based on that data (and what I saw watching the game with my, admitedly, less-then-super-power eyesight) I'm happy to stand by my opinion you attempt to ridicule that Bryan did indeed eventually gain the upper hand on whoever came down his side.

You have lots of previous of jumping through many hoops in your own desperation to be right and coming on telling the world "I told you so." You show it again in this thread.

So desperate were you once to denigrate Lukaku you claimed half his goals last season were 'scuffed.' When challenged to name examples, you couldn't even come up with a quarter, and some of those were easily challenged. Yet when offered video evidence to view to make a more informed opinion than your warped and prejudiced memory, you retorted: "I refuse to watch it, 'cos I may have to change my opinion."

Says it all, really.

Ignore that!

Housey! Housey!