Burnley defeat 'tough to take'

Very few of our players were making or finding space. It was easy for them to defend against a team with little idea how to carve an opponent open.

I have to say I reckon the standard of refereeing this season has been in the main dreadful. Some of the decisions made have gone our way – the penalty vs Stoke for instance. But 11 v 10 is a totally different game, especially for over an hour.

This is not an excuse for yesterday; as I said on another thread, we are not good enough and we have too many players happy to pick up the dosh. I think some of them realise they are out come next summer and are going through the motions.

ps: I realise Coleman was lucky to stay on but the second offence doesn't happen if they are down to 10 men.

Don't say that to Koeman! He knows all about players who score the winner after they committed a foul which should have been a direct sending off.

Hoiland vs England, 1993 World Cup qualifier. Koeman scores a sublime free kick when he should have been in the bathtub, for a nasty foul. Result: England missed out on qualifying for the USA World Cup, 1994!

That said, what really infuriates me is when when hair-do Deulofeu gets the ball on the wing. He shows too much of the ball to the defender, in some cases slo- walking trying to make an eejit out of the defender... Result!... they regroup and man-mark and the only eejit left is the one with the silly hair-do!

Watched Mirallas in this game and others. When he gets the ball wide, he is looking for someone to pass to in the box, or to partner with for a combination pass. There is no-one in the box except for Lukaku, who is usually being doubled. Everyone else seems to be standing off with Mirallas or is even farther up field. The only time I see any options is when Kone plays like a second striker (not suggesting he start but he does give options when he is in).

You can see the frustration when Mirallas has to make a negative pass near the 18. He makes feints waiting for someone to run into the box, but then no-one does. I wait for him to attack in the box alone but it almost seems Koeman won't let him or the rest of the players (Rom excepted), since none of them seem to do it.

I am a huge Oviedo fan but his style of play is overlapping runs wide – not into the box. Only Baines seems to make the penetrating runs without the ball. In fact, Mirallas and Baines looked quite dangerous together earlier in the year on the left.

Are we starting to see the flaws in Koeman's managerial skills? Is he a decent defensive coach with less than a full clue on the offensive side perhaps?

I don't expect to see too much movement in January either. He said at the very beginning it will take 2 years until we see his team playing as he wants.

Lukaku is still isolated. We are still putting in aimless crosses. We are still taking too much time to pass the ball. No guile. No creativity. Deulofeu is having all the ebullience coached out of him. Barkley always looks like he just lost a tenner and found 10p. None of them look like the result matters too much to any of them.

Koeman was watching a different match because he seems to think we deserved to win. To win, you have to have some penetration in front and we have none. A few more performances like that and we will be struggling to stay in mid-table. We need a strike partner for Lukaku in January.

Bolasie is even worse on the other side. I know it's clever to sometimes use other runners as a decoy, but Coleman will soon stop making those lung-busting runs to get around him if he doesn't start playing the obvious ball. On at least three occasions in the second half, Bolasie chose the wrong option and turned in-field when Seamus was free. Is it greed, or does he really not see him ? I had to take a close look at the end to make sure he wasn't wearing a patch over his right eye...

Only Baines and Barry actually play with intelligence. I know people are screaming out for leadership and steel, but right now I'd settle for just being better than stupid. Koeman must now realise he has inherited fifteen of the Premier League's thickest...

If we come up against a really good side and get outplayed by better players, it's disappointing, but when we come up against a poor side and either can't work out how to beat them or can't be arsed, then that's what pisses supporters off.

It's not a case of giving Koeman time or waiting for another two transfer windows, yesterday was a case of not winning a very winnable football match. It was there simply for the taking and we COULDN'T do that and I find that hard to swallow.

Koeman can't be judged yet, give him a year or two at least, after all the last calamity was given nearly three years.

When he does what you describe, he is either giving his own team mates time to get in the area or trying to force the defender to commit himself. That is his job and he is one of the few players we have who possess a high order of skill and talent. Bolasie, on the other hand, is all thunder and no rain.

I'm afraid we still are about 5 or 6 players short of being a decent team. Unless of course these players suddenly click and make it work. It's happened before in 1984... and we know what occurred then.

Just before the final whistle, the ball went to Deulofeu. He dithered a little and then did his usual run to the end line. I believe it was Coleman who made a cut to the inside and ran into the box calling for the pass from DelBoy. What did the Spanish ex-wunderkind do?

Yep, he ignored making the open pass and instead, did his usual run around the defender along the end line, finishing with a poor weak shot that dribbled into the side netting.

His Everton teammate was yelling at him and DelBoy did his usual "What me?" stare that he has, except when he is lambasting other players for what he perceives as their selfish or boneheaded mistakes. Sorry, he doesn't escape some criticism.

And that is exactly the same thing happening when Bolasie has the ball and Mirallas has the ball. That overlapping run just doesn't get the rewarded pass. Instead, it is stupid stepover after stepover and 9 times out of 10, a defender wins the ball. Seems to be the game plan sadly.

I'm happy to put this down as an unlikely smash-and-grab so long as we don't see a pattern emerge.

But this is not work in progress. I don't see much work and I don't see any progress.

Meanwhile, the RS are top. The derby is going to be another spanking ceremony.

I cannot believe the level of despondency and disappointment. Many teams are going through transition and we are one of them. Pogba is playing shite every game, De Gea was rubbish today and I could continue but I won't.

Question is this: Would you take Pogba if offered? Would you take Mourinho as manager??? Would you want De Gea??? Come on, support Koeman, support the team. It will come good. It's just a matter of time.

A cheeky bid for Mata and Schneiderlin in January ???

If you are going to cite the neighbours, get your facts right – they aren't top, they are third in the table or to be generous share top spot with 2 other sides. I'll put my season ticket on eBay for the derby game seeing as it's a foregone conclusion, might as well get some money for it, it will help to fund Christmas... But hold on – football is a sport and not a science, anything might happen. Oh dear, now I'm conflicted, should I believe the doom mongers or stick by the team?

Everton's Points per game ratio in the last two full seasons was 1.24; at the moment the ppg is 1.67 – not a fantastic improvement but an improvement nonetheless. And if it stays at that level, the team that is crap and can't do anything right will get circa 64 points at the end of the season.

But of course, Koeman is another clown and his players are sub Premier League standard so I'd better prepare for a relegation battle whilst simultaneously gnashing my teeth about the affairs of the neighbours and their unstoppable march to honours. I have seen bad times at Goodison Park and have some terrible memories; this season so far isn't amongst them... but give it time, eh?

I see him as a cross between Moyes and Martinez. I'm just hoping it will be their good chromosomes that come to the top!

Exactly. What is it with the step-over and the drag-back? The check back to beat a man who was already beaten? Lukaku went straight for the jugular against Clichy and the result was devastating... but we learn nothing.

Barkley, Deulofeu, Mirallas, Bolasie and Lukaku himself were all back in 'fuck about' mode yesterday. They look like kids showing off in the school yard.

Drives me fucking nuts. Koeman needs to cut this out. Now.

The latest Niasse statement is degrading to all concerned if it's not football related and that bad that it has warranted unsavoury statements from the manager, why wasn't/hasn't the player been sacked? The situation has been handled very poorly.

There were a couple of occasions when a turn and quick pass forward would have been the much better option; instead he's playing with fear, fear of being dragged off, or dropped again.

He needs coaching into playing a more natural game, but without the hesitation and lack of quick thinking that has become his game lately.

The defence is looking mean again in general, so I expect the 2nd half of the season (I hope anyway) that will continue but with a lot more threat up top.

Relax, people...Koeman will get us going again.

There isn't a dynamism about our play; often it looks like a testimonial with a bunch of old guys showing off. Where's the quick one-twos, runs behind defenders, shooting accurately from outside the box?

Lukaku is isolated but doesn't work hard. No gambling a run at the near post, no pressing, but lots and lots of Magnus Pyke arms though.

Don't get me wrong, I am not satisfied with Everton's performance yesterday. But when the bigger teams also drop points, it means we can stay in the race at least.

Why don't we try this at the start of the season. Create a poll or send an email to every registered user asking where they expect Everton to finish in the coming season. Use that to creat a consensus so we can "fairly" judge the team accordingly.

And we can do that right now to set the expectations for the rest of the season. If the consensus is 10th, then sadly that will show where the fan base is, at least on his site. If the expectations are 5th-6th, then we can judge accordingly. And that's where the user believes we should finish, what they expect as an Everton supporter.

What exactly would be the point and what purpose would it serve when people rush to make their 'fair' judgement 29 games prior to the team's finishing position actually being known?

You believe a manager, no matter the state of a club and it's playing staff when he takes over, should be able to magic up an instant turnaround and suffer no setbacks along the way? You must do? You've been whining on about everyone elses 'expectations' being lower than Bad Grandpa's ballsack and Koeman falling short ever since the full time whistle went on the first game of the season, when you claimed a point against Spurs was utter pish.

If you would like to start things off on the Evertonian Early Doors Expectometer, at the start of the season where did your 'ambitious' arse expect Everton to be after 9 games?

Yes, a team can be judged along the way. Just as the manager has seen fit to judge Barkley negatively. Or is it also unfair there as well?

Where I expected Everton to be with a new owner and the promises of a new era was to be challenging at the top of the table, and to not accept losses to the likes of Burnley. We started off well, and then have had a major fall off, despite having a very easy start to the season. We have yet to play Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Leicester... We relied on a missed penalty turned own goal to beat Stoke, and beat a floundering Sunderland and promoted Boro, losing to Burnley and Bournemouth. We lost to Norwich in the EFL Cup.

So, are we meeting your expectations? Why don't we start there?

We've spent two season knocking around the deadbeats, and many with their heads only just above water. If you want Everton to finish 10th then get BBS back.

By extension, bringing Koeman in and signing 4 first-team players tells me the board expect much more, not 2/3 windows to sort the deadwood, trim the fat crap sentiment

It's not unrealistic, or demanding to expect a club of our means and stature to finish that high. Whilst Evertonians are sadists, doom mongers and all that, it's almost self-sabotaging not to set a high bar for our club, hold it to account promptly and with rigour.

Take Lukaku: like him or lump him, the lad's goal record is amazing. If we don't hold the team to account, we lose him for sure next summer.

We stand no chance of buying someone with that record or players who would consider a move because of Lukaku's record.

If you want a mid-table, mildly exciting hobby to watch, then be my guest. I'm done with the patience, I expect more than 5 games without a win, losing to three family nicey nicey clubs along the way.

Expect more and make it known, results like Saturday are completely unacceptable.

So, because we had a new owner you suddenly expected Everton to be going all Brewsters Millions and blowing other teams out the water during the transfer window just gone? Why? Because the media made out the club had £100m they were absolutely desperate to throw at it?

Once the transfer business was out the way and knowing the sum total of the squad strengthening (which clearly you weren't satisfied with), you didn't adjust your 'expectations' accordingly? Like you would expect the same results/performances regardless of whether the squad was stuffed to the brim with new star signings or the same stale old shite? Standards that, lad.

After watching, in the main, the exact same players regularly fail to perform for the past two seasons, you still expected us to be challenging right at the top of the table? Instantly?

Not very realistic expectations all round then, were they?

"So, are we meeting your expectations? Why don't we start there?"

My expectation in the summer was that no manager, no matter who it was or where we found him, would be walking into Goodison waving a big magic wand, flicking fairy dust over dog shit and having us lap it up like it was a chocolate eclair. My expectation was that it couldn't possibly be an instant fix and there was bound to be disappointments along the way.

Honestly, I wouldn't even begin attempting to judge a manager less than ten games into his tenure. You may think 'time' is some luxury no new manager should be entitled to but it's an absolute necessity when you're trying to restore confidence, imbue some spine, improve fitness, and knock bad habits and deep rooted failings out of a squad of individuals who have consistently fallen short in the recent past.

Where we are after ten games gone isn't a sure fire portent of the entire season being gash from now on out, just as it wouldn't be a reliable indicator of an incredible season to remember if we were currently sitting top right now.

Did you miss or intentionally neglect where I said I'm not focusing on the manager, judging the manager, but am talking about Everton as a club? Just curious, "lad".

I'm not seeing that massive impact from the new manager or the new Board. Nowhere did I say the season is over. But what has been shown so far, not what I expected or what I believe to be acceptable. There has been a lot of talk about a defensive foundation, yet I see us giving up soft goals more as the season goes on, not getting better. We gave away two penalties last week, and two incredibly soft goals this week. By this point in the season, the manager has had plenty of time to shape this team.

I'm all for giving a manager time, but to meet what expectation? What is expected from the manager? He's paid a hell of a lot, and it apparently cost a hell of a lot to get rid of the last guy. So I would presume that the expectation would be that the results would be a hell of a lot better, no?

Moshiri took over the club last season, not in the summer. He's had a lot of time to assess, and apparently he judged the precious manager's 11th place as unacceptable and was willing to pay around £10 million to get rid. But what I haven't heard is what is expected. At Spurs a new manager doesn't mean judge after a couple of seasons. Nor does it at Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd, or Man City, (apparently Arsenal couldn't care less).

So what is this club's stated ambition, and what is the ambition of the supporters? I personally would expect us to be taking it to the likes of Spurs and Liverpool, considering that when Liverpool made their managerial change we were above them in the table, as I was reminded so often after the derby draw last season when I said it was a terrible result.

And Spurs? Moyes had us challenging with them every season, sometimes above them, sometimes just behind them. I'm actually longing for the Moyes era expectations at this point, to challenge for a top 4 place. And if a new manager requires time to adjust, then I would imagine we should expect to challenge Man Utd and Chelsea too, right? Since they have new managers and obviously will need time to grow into the position and shape their teams as well?

I think Tim Cahill had guile, perhaps Arteta as well, but no-one in this current team has enough of it. It's what a player like Teddy Sheringham had in bucket loads (although I didn't really like him, but that was mainly because of who he played for...). It's guile that unlocks a defence.

Sadly I can't imagine who might be available in the transfer market to fill this void; are there any youngsters showing promise in this line? If so, they need to be in the first team/squad right now!

I didn't ignore it, David. In the opening paragraph, I explicitly asked you why you expected "a new owner" buying into the club would result in us tearing up the opposition and instantly challenging at the top of the table, and why you would believe all the media guff about the board being ready to spunk a Godzuki-sized wedge in the transfer window. I even used a quote from your own post referring to  the 'new owner' and 'promises of a new era' to highlight precisely what I was addressing. 

In the end, though, it will always come back round to the manager because ultimately what you're expressing disappointment with (and aiming exasperation at other fans for failing to follow suit) are the results: "in response to the poor results over the past month", "how about being a quarter into the "fucking" season and being knocked out of the League Cup by a lower division side", "not accept losses to the likes of Burnley". 

Overall, there's little point to what you're saying as far as I can see, other than 'I want more. Right now. No matter whether it's reasonable or there's any grounds to actually expect it'.

'I was in a terrible temper when I left Turf Moor, but that easily pleased Evertonian, 'the amazingly ambivalent Spider-Man' couldn't give two shits':

Link

In one breath, you say the manager has had long enough to mould the team exactly how he wants it – a mere 14 weeks after walking through the door – whilst in the next you're declaring "I'm all for giving managers time". Clearly, you're not. Or do you honestly see no contradiction there?

You point the finger at the manager again when you dismiss the claims that he may have improved the defence somewhat because we're now conceding too many 'soft goals'. Even though we've got the second best defensive record in the league so far.

As for the 'a Spurs manager isn't judged after a couple of seasons' stuff? What's that all about? They're not ultimately  judged after 9 games are they and, if they were to be, it wouldn't be seen as a sign of their supporters 'ambition' or superior expectations. It would (or at least should) be written off as the sort of knee-jerk, insta-gratification, social media driven gobshitery the game has become steadily infected with, by most football fans with a modicum of patience and their head screwed on.

The whole 'well, Moyes regularly held his own against Spurs' argument has little merit also. The Spurs team and manager of today are a vastly different proposition to those they had back then. So too were Everton under long serving manager Moyes, come to that. Spurs were a team lacking any long-term consistency, often in transition, swapping out managers and large numbers of their squad every couple of seasons, whereas Moyes had stability on his side, knew his squad back to front, and had plenty of that overrated "time in charge" shite safely stashed in his stay-creased action slacks.

If you wanted to make the claim that Everton, as a club, allowed Spurs to sneak up from behind, crawl all over them and leave them trailing in their wake with a gob full of tatty web dangling from their disappearing into the distance arse, perhaps by hiring Martinez and sticking with him until his reign descended into farce, or by failing to supply anywhere near the same amount of funds to the man in charge, then that's a different matter altogether.

You focused on Moyes and his time in charge. On the manager. Again. ("The first rule of The Football Club is: You do not talk about The Football Club. You talk almost exclusively about the manager .and then claim you're not talking about the manager, but the football club as a whole").

What else? Oh yeah. Liverpool being behind Everton at the time when Klopp took over and now look at them! Well, what about it? Surely, it would be more relevant in this instance to go back and see how he was cracking on after 9 games under his belt?

Then finally the claim that Everton should now be on an instant equal footing with Man Utd and Chelsea because they've got new managers too. Like the quality of the players already in those squads, sat waiting when their new managers walked through the door, along with the vast amounts those clubs have spent in previous years, prior to the last transfer window when Everton's "new era" began in earnest, shouldn't play any part at all in determining or explaining the possible differing expectations of those clubs? 

While we undoubtedly need to give Koeman time, as fans we are entitled to critique the team and manager on a game-by-game basis.

Certain behaviours shouldn't take two years to correct – unless you are trying to teach a bunch of dimwits.

These are not crap players, and neither are they dimwits. They've shown in patches this season that they can take instructions and play decent football.

That instruction now appears to have been abrogated... And we are entitled to query that.

Not sure why Koeman took off Gueye for Cleverley. We lost our shape and tempo immediately. Cleverley was like a headless chicken out there!

Koeman mentioned a lot about pressing, and I find it puzzling he overlooks Aaron Lennon who is all about energy and pace.

Some posts on here refer to Liverpool doing fine. Yes, but when Klopp took over, he wasn't doing any better than Rodgers at first, and it's only now they're looking half-decent, but with remaining weaknesses in defence.

Surely nobody is really expecting massive improvement over last season? Improvement, progress, yes, but not massive improvement. I'll take massive improvement if it's there, but I'm setting my expectations more realistically.

We seem to still be lacking mentally, but it's not as bad as last season, so there's progress there. If this progress doesn't continue as the season progresses, then I'll be concerned, but not yet. I'm disappointed by recent results, but not concerned (not like I was last season).

We're 5 points behind the leaders with 14 teams behind us. I'm disappointed but satisfied with our position after ¼ of season, but I want to see improvement and better performances all-round. Also, I believe Koeman will change our whole team eventually.

Calm down – we're doing okay... even though we are crap and always lose the games that put us right in the mix. COYBs.

We are nine (9!) games into his tenure. We have conceded the joint fewest goals in the Premier League so far this season apart from Spurs, and we are only 4 points from a Champions League slot – with a net spend way below most of the teams above us.

Most observers last season were rightly critical of our defensive chaos – conceding an average of 1.4 goals per game (it actually felt worse than that). This season so far, we have conceded an average of just under 1 goal per game in the Premier League.

If we accept that Koeman's main priority was to steady the ship and stop it leaking, I'd say a 50% improvement in that area is already good, steady progress.

We all know we need more fluidity upfront and to score more goals, and many would agree more striking options is the next priority.

Like I said – nine games in, and for some the canal bank is already jammed with people ready to jump. FFS – it's a two-year project – get real.

No-one is saying give Koeman 2 years to produce a team, but equally perhaps longer than the 4 months and 10 days he has been in charge.

I would like to see Davies given a bit more game time but perhaps playing him alongside Barry and Gueye would make us even more defensive-minded when we don't have enough creativity as it is.

(As an aside, I don't know if anyone plays Football Manager but I started a new season as Everton yesterday on the latest version of the game and my head scout suggested that I signed "Free Agent Leon Osman" as the squad lacked creativity!)

Do I detect irony?

Congratulations, you have won the internet today...

Gobshitery I will be unashamingly stealing this from now on.