Everton left frustrated by draw at Stoke

Don't forget Gueye will be available for the Bournemouth game. Many would say the team with him in it is our strongest side. Will be interesting to see what Koeman decides when they are all ready to go.

Williams continues to get caught out. Too many mistakes in this guy.

You can already see the difference Schneiderlin makes to this team and the guy hasn't played for 6 months. Cool, classy, composed and the way he tagged Allen out of frustration brought a tear to my eye. Not to mention he was the first in the ref's face for our goal. This is our future captain.

Have we found a goalkeeper?

Well played again, Joel Robles.

Robles kept us in it twice.

Schneiderlin will be a good signing.

Game of two halves really. They had the better of the first half then an intelligent change in formation from the manager at half time and we were by far the better team in the second half.

Should have won it but a great save from Tom's header.

It is tiring to repeat that we are glaringly short of creative guile and that we need another striker Tim Chillingham but until we address those shortcomings then we will continue to be telling ourselves that a point away at the likes of Stoke is a good result (which it is) rather than celebrating breakthrough wins.

In terms of unforced errors and quality, this was as bad as anything this season.

A truly awful and painful game to watch.

Sloppy passing at key moments, but positives to be taken from the game. With each passing game, Robles is growing as a keeper and looks increasingly more solid and reliable.

Davies and Lookman inevitably make the wrong choice or pass at times, but there is a brightness and alertness about them – all the more so, given their age – that is hugely encouraging.

Would have been nice to get the 3 points, given the other mid-week results, but the unbeaten run extends. Bournemouth at home on Saturday represents a good chance to add points and goals to our tally.

Onwards and ... upwards?

The acid test though will be the visits to Anfield and Old Trafford. If we're going to seriously challenge sixth, by my reckoning we'll have to win one of those two.

Another thing is, please do not pass the ball to Lukaku if he is not facing the opponent's goal. He is just going to give the ball away.

All-in-all a good draw nevertheless.

Robles is coming good. He has put up with being rated second best.

Now he has taken his chance (again) and should remain in situ for the rest of the season.

Several of you have stated that Koeman turned down Joe Hart, but on current form Hart is the only keeper I would put in front of Robles.

Not the end of the world if Robles carries on his current form.

A point is more than many will get, so I am satisfied we did not slip up on this banana.

I expect us to be on fire against Bournemouth...

A good point!!

Schneiderlin had a solid game but his lack of match sharpness led to a couple of poor passes that could have cost us. Williams didn't put a foot wrong, and Davies is so impressive. Joel did well again, keeping us in it with those one-on-ones.

Baines failed to get down his line – he really is lacking pace now, and although he was solid defensively, we need more penetration on his wing.

Might have nicked it late on, but it was a fair resut.

I used to play against my dad every night when he got back from work, we had a league table. We had about 6 teams each, those were the days...

I wish he would listen to himself. He asks multiple questions, but interrupts the response before the respondent can answer his catalogue of questions.

Methinks 1-0 to Moshiri.

I can't think of one – push, pull, grab, nudge, whine, press, moan... fucking horrible to play (and watch).

Not moaning (much) like, but I'm pleased we won't have to play them there again until next season.

Shudders!

Still think we are missing a bit of spark up front especially when Barkley is not quite on it as was the case tonight.

A point at Stoke is pretty reasonable and the performance while not polished at least showed to me that we are still on the right track.

I agree and the bonus is that we have 2 or 3 players who are getting used to their team-mates and or not quite 100% match fit and a couple of youngsters who now know how hard it is to perform away from Goodison.

Stoke are a very hard working side and have some dangerous players if you allow them time and space, which is what happened in the first half. We kept them at arm's length for most of the second period but we didn't look too fluent too often in their half. A draw was a fair result in the end.

Well said.

However, Hughes (who I rate) is getting the best out of his team.

Hard place to go too, a lot of teams will leave with nil points.

Good point tonight.

Never improves... a basic requirement of a professional footballer.

Lukaku didn't touch it and didn't interfere with play. He also didn't obstruct the keeper or even distract him as he was stood beyond Grant. Not that it matters what Hughes thinks, but he's whining on SSN and it's annoying.

I thought Lookman looked lively and fearless. Want to see him with ball at feet in the final third more, he seems to be able to glide past players.

We are on a pretty decent run at the minute and a win on Saturday could really put Man Utd under pressure.

Crouch – fuck off; Shawcross – fuck off. We should have beaten them but just glad to get the thugs out the way for this season.

Davis is a brilliant player and he's still learning. Passes it long and short, tackles, shoots, fly's through the air for headers and above all he has that swagger.

If I had the choice of any defender to buy, it would just have to be Shawcross – what an animal.

We can perhaps put the lack of fluidity down to a cold Wednesday night at Stoke married with the fact it has followed an extended break since our last game.

Hopefully we will find our flow for the visit of Bournemouth on Saturday. I'm making the trip from Dublin, so I hope so.

It is getting to the ridiculous stage where if Lukaku does not score then it will be a defender. Why are Barkley and Mirallas not scoring? If they cannot score then what is the point of them being on the pitch ? They each have 3 goals this season and Coleman has four whilst Baines has three.

Stoke had a huge physical defence set up to overwhelm Lukaku. Obviously Hughes reckoned that stopping Lukaku would defuse our attack and he was right. Lookman came on for a cameo and had more attempts than our senior players.

We have enough midfielders but we need a big commanding centre back to deal with the Crouch's and Benteke's of the division. We cope very well with the small footballing sides but we definitely struggle against physical sides who tend to bully us. Until we find a second striker and a proper play maker we will remain where we are.

In this league of 38 league matches, that would mean a total point haul of 76 points in any given season.

Not being a "stato" , nor a historian, I am sure there will be many of that ilk who will soon let me know where that points tally will or could have placed us in any given season.

However, my point here is not about what has happened in the past, nor what might happen in the future.

Rather, it is about consistency, which now seems to be almost in our grasp.

We are winning at home (is "Fortress Goodison" being resurrected?).

We are drawing away (this is certainly top four form, albeit, perhaps too late for this season).

Great teams, of course, convert many away draws into wins agains the weaker sides and this must be the aim for the next stage of our development.

However, suffice to say, on the basis of the transfer business done thus far under Koeman and Walsh (and I include those leaving as well as those arriving) and the results we have achieved, home and away, over the last few weeks, I genuinely believe that we are finally beginning to look like, act like and become, at the very least, a top four club.

Next up Bournemouth at home. Would be nice to give them a good beating to really get us back motoring.

Davies looked a little lightweight first half, I thought he might struggle against such a strong aggressive team, but he was excellent after the break.

Rom looks off the pace the last few weeks, I'd have liked us to have got Valencia up top with him to help him against such physically strong defenders.

If Ronny didn't fancy 2 up top late on, he should have considered giving Rom 10 minutes break and giving Valencia ago.

Good to see McCarthy back, both him and Schneiderlin needed run outs, they won't get many tougher run outs that they had tonight.

I'm looking forward to seeing us at home to Bournemouth as they are quite an expansive side who like to play football, it will be an interesting specticle.

A last note, before Crouch scored we were the only Premier League side yet to concede in 2017 league football.

Onwards and upwards.

The Pots play just like the has-been Hughes did by the time he blighted us with his squabbling, grappling and total avoidance of all things football.

Eugene says it so well in post 47.

Not for the first time Koeman was decisive, changed the shape and we were a much better side in the second half. Davies stepped up and Schneiderlin added bite as defensive mid.

Unfortunately the front three were largely ineffective. Lookman, though he didn't see a lot of the ball, was much livelier around the box in his short time on. He'll knock in a few more before the season is out.

Arnautovich took Holgate to school in the first half; sure hope he learned a thing or two.

Lukaku looked very lonely up front. Koeman has to figure out something to get him more involved.

McCarthy doesn't have a lot going forward, but if the your in a different coloured shirt with the ball, and he's anywhere near you; your going to get clattered. Nice to see him back.

Happy with a point.

Colin and James you are both quite right about the BBC's match report and your frustration is understandable. Nothing new there though – it's been the same since I can remember. THEY, meaning the football establishment, just don't like us.

My dad (God rest his soul) told me that in the 60's. At the time I thought he was being a bit paranoid but have come to realise over the years that he was correct.

So tonight we have come away with, what THEY are saying, is a fortunate point. Great – I hope It is driving them to distraction.

I would like to see us make them even quieter by grinding out more results like this.

We have got THEM rattled. They expected us to be 3 points further adrift of United after tonight's two games – we have maintained our position.

We are going to catch United. That will send them barmey.

Next game 3 points is a must.

A point at Stoke is acceptable, that's all, this season. Next season with a more active summer window behind us I hope we'll take all three. That's what successful teams do at places like Stoke. I was under the impression that wins at the likes of Stoke was endemic to Moshiri's stated ambition.

The "key to three" is possession in places that make the opposition bleed, right there and then. That's why we needed, and still obviously need, two or three more players at the top of midfield as well as in attack.

Overall quite happy with the draw. We could have won; we could have lost. I thought Davies had scored the winner at the end, but that's what goalies are paid for. For his first half saves, I'd give Robles MotM.

Thrilled to see Seamus back doing what he does best. He's limited in some ways but gives everything he's got. Bargain really doesn't do him justice.

A draw isn't bad there. We move on.

Suck it up. this is the way its going to be under Korpral Koeman. Pug ugly football. How can it possibly be anything else when you've got a 60-yard gap between your centre-forward and your centre-half? Too many aimless hoofs (inevitable); too many badly weighted passes, dumb-arsed formation which played straight into the hands of tactically challenged Mark Hughes.

Once again, the result (a decent point) will serve as an ample mask for another damned unpretty performance. This manager has now been here seven months now and I defy anybody to describe the style of football he is asking these players play. This is meant to be entertainment... it's an eyesore. The Man City game was wonderful, but by taking all four chances which came our way, we have merely encouraged the happy clappers to ring the bells for a bright new dawn.

"Press, press, press..." We couldn't press a drop from a recently picked Valencia.

Maybe Koeman will one day realise the abject stupidity of trying to "press" the opposition while your defenders are still on the edge of their own box. I'm not holding my breath though. The guy thinks with the fucking handbrake on.

I have been banging the drum regarding the fucking BBC's bias for years now, even finding Evertonians a lot of the time don't see it ... (Take a bow Ste Traverse).

The report on the BBC was a sheer one-sided diatribe. Never in the history of reporting have the redshite or manure ever, EVER been dismissed like that. And it happens to Everton quite regularly. The thing is, the BBC make such a high principle of being 'objective' and 'impartial'. That is why it pisses me off so much.

For sheer proof of the BBC's unmitigated bias, read the report and imagine you are not an Evertonian. It is shocking.

As Dave Abrahams says, proper possession where it counts, which leads to proper pressing when required. Then proper players to see and play the proper pass to proper strikers-plural, strikers of the 'smash & grab' type, like Jones and Clarke and, dare I say it , Toshack & Keegan, Lineker & Beardsley etc... even Shearer & Owen ffs. Lukaku & Lookman... hmm, not too sure on that, can't see Lukaku being 'smashie', he's too nicey.

Short version; Proper Football... football shorn of all the trendy buzz words.

Hugh @60; 76 pts would get you anywhere between 2nd and 5th depending how the others went.

I especially liked the Peter Crouch / performing seal comparison.

Koeman had nothing to do with the weather nor an anti-football Stoke team that we did well to get a point out of.

Stoke a tough team at their place? Fairly, yes.

So, reasonable result to not lose? Probably.

Acceptable continuation of our improved run of two months? I guess.

All mostly positive. I've kind of softened my stance on Koeman since his earlier product, which got close to going pear shaped. He's been at the helm after all, and turned it a ways - so we'll see.

Doesn't change what Darren said though: whilst flexibility is very necessary to suit varied oppositions, there is still no definable starting or basic style to our play. Hard to fathom the intent. It's working for now but is far from an established basis. Will be interesting to see where it goes.

William, Post 80:

I'm completely with you on the bias issue. I've never thought to conduct a poll but I assumed all Evertonians were aware. The BBC and most of them have always used a minimal acknowledgement approach when reporting Everton - mention the other team's failings as an alternative to Everton's positives, and other "Techniques".

Even during those days in the '80s when we were a sizeable cut above everyone else, praise was often almost reluctant.

On the night, and on the balance of chances Is think Sparky will be the more disappointed with the draw so I wa pleased we came away with our point. Robles, Schneiderlin, Davies all looked good.

The one time I recall Rom winning an aerial dual we pressed well from it. I wish he would do it more. Ross seemed unable to tell the difference between red and white, and blue, much of the time but he does often go for the ambitious pass which is harder to complete so credit to him there.

MotM a difficult call but I think Joel won us the point last night. So it's our GK for me.

So, as I said, win at home, draw away is effectively a formula that would take us into the top 4 on a pretty regular basis. Then, to start winning a few more of the away games, will ultimately elevate the side (any side) into the "Champions" position.

On the basis of last nights result and depending on how the next few games go, it does seem we are starting to "get there".

Will, regarding the BBC bias, anyone remember Lineker saying that when he first went to MotD they had to persuade the Producer NOT to put the RS on first every week. As a RS supporter he'd try to make a case for putting Liverpool on first, and we can see the RS bias at every step.

I've just watched the BBC News and City and United were shown, including soft arse Maureen having a PMT strop and walking out of his interview, and they orgasmed over Crouch and his goal... but didn't show our goal and only mentioned us as an after thought. The whole corrupt BBC organisation needs clearing out.
#kenwrightforDG

"The guy thinks with the handbrake on"

Just out of interest,do you reckon any of the current managers in the Premier League could match your standard of coaching knowledge?

We get the picture. You don't like Koeman.

It was a difficult night to play football, wind and rain and the same in-your-face aggression we always see from Stoke. Could you not just be reasonably pleased with a point?

BT are just as bad with their bias, did you see the Wolves FA Cup game? Creasehead and Ince pitch side and McManaman in the commentary box. I went out just after kick-off so can't say if there was any balance at half-time or if it was Whelan, Rush, Doglish and Shankly, via a seance, summing up the action.

We are so inconsistent, one week we knock the ball around for fun the next we can't string 2 passes together. Koeman will bring Gana back on Saturday but who for?

Lookman can't be far off starting for Mirallas. Baines hasn't been able to link up play down the left for 2 seasons now, it's getting embarrassing that we are wasting a players quality, restricting him to sideways and backwards passing.

Another transfer window passes without us having a natural left mid.

Battling against the weather, and a horrible team to play against, due to there style of play (dragging, pushing and fouling our players constantly). I'm more relieved we came out the game with no injuries.

Davies looked good again, as did Schneiderlin. Robles could do nothing about the goal we conceded, and made a few good stops to keep it at 1. He's looking like our number one keeper.

Lookman looked sharp when he came on, and I would start him with Lukaku at the weekend in place of Mirallas. And start Gueye in place of Barkley, who looked good in spells but is still inconsistent (yet improving lately).

Much will depend on formation and though the 3-5-2 has been the rock of our success in the last month we looked better last night when moving to 4-3-3 allowing for 3 ball winners in the middle and I wonder if that will be the way Koeman choose to go for moving forwards.

If so then I think the 3 for my money have to be Gueye, Schneiderlin and Davies with McCarthy coming on for whoever tires or is not quite on it.

The question then may be who plays in the middle allowing the other two to press forward a little more. Probably Schneiderlin is the sitting one as both Gueye and Davies seem to be a little quicker and capable of good movement up front. Davies already has a goal and assist or two and should have scored last night, Gueye would probably have a handful if only he could remember his shooting boots.

So, assuming we go 4-3-3 I'd go for:

Robles
Coleman, Williams, Funes Mori, Baines
Davies, Schneiderlin, Gueye
Barkley, Lukaku, Mirallas (or Lookman)

In that team, both Barkley and Mirallas have the option of dropping back centrally leaving two 'strikers' up front comfortable in the knowledge that we have in Schneiderlin and Gueye two of the most statistically effective ball winners in the Premier League over the last few years.

With Funes Mori's heading ability from Garbutt's crosses, we could be a real threat from out left or set plays.

At least our football is slowly improving & Man Utd drew also.

Onwards...

At Goodison or Spurs they only show Kenwright and Levy, after all the public wouldn't recognise anyone else, as they're not all on the bleedin' telly!

Last night it was a good result and we had good performances from Williams, Davies, Schneiderlin and Robles, but let's not kid ourselves, we could have been dead and buried by halftime.

The formation was wrong, Holgate was targeted from the off, and just like at Chelsea, Koeman took too long to change it. Credit to him that he did at halftime, but we were lucky to be still in the game.

For me Funes Mori was, for all of his enthusiasm, always a disaster waiting to happen. His passing is woeful and his positioning got him in to trouble on more than one occasion. Still he won't be up against a giant every week.

It will be interesting to see what formation Koeman plums for against the Cherries.

As for Koeman's style of play. Seems to me that our red neighbours showed a very clear style and after early success, other clubs now know it and hence their recent poor form. I think Koeman aims to have a style that can best beat the opponent that day. To have that flexibility is not easy and needs a squad that know and trust each other very well. I think we are moving that way.

I guess that makes me a happy clapper!

Ray, don't remember that Lineker thing but not surprised.

Anytime Everton were ahead in a televised big game at half time, or won, there would be an almost shocked/uncomfortable air when back in the studio for comment. Not just my Everton bias either, many I know that support other teams have said that we don't get much recognition. It was very noticeable in those halcyon days of The Martinez Effect, when we were tearing it up for a while – almost resented us, the only attention we really got was discussion of which of our players the "Big" teams were going to pluck.

Kenwright for DG? Sure... anything that compromises that Marxist, elbow pad paradise is fine by me!

But, saying that, what will it take for Koeman to get Everton to be wide awake from the kick off? It always seems to be an age before they stop gifting passes to any player other than their own team members.

For those who keep criticising the BBC for bias they should be forced to listen for an hour to the two rambling idiots on TalkSport. Trapped on the supporters bus with a Chelsea and Man Utd fan screaming illogical rubbish at one another and the radio bellowing out at full volume would give anybody a full understanding of the experience of being waterboarded.

Regarding the BBC's bias against Everton, it's been going on as far back as the early 70s I believe. Prior to that, MotD seemed okay. But to be honest, when I see the BBC, and some of their excruciating programmes, whether radio or TV, programmes that are sycophant towards certain 'celebrities' and political correctness (code for 'full of shit'), I wouldn't want the BBC being biased towards us. But it would be nice if they were neutral.

I would be tempted to start with the team that finished last night with the exception of Gana for McCarthy.

"The style" implies a single, fixed style. If the opposition can anticipate a fixed style, you've been found out.

As Dermot 98 says "I think Koeman aims to have a style that can best beat the opponent that day."

Williams seem to be marking him but was watching the ball whereas Funes Mori didn't seem to sprint at full speed to cover Williams. Funes Mori seems to do that quite often were he switches off or doesn't bust his ass getting back to cover a dangerous run.

We are on our own – expect no recognition from THEM – it won't be forthcoming. It's up to us to serve it up to THEM and in Koeman, I am coming to believe that we have the manager who will help us to do just that.

He is only interested in winning, and if you can't win don't loose. That is what we need at this stage of our progress.

As others have alluded to, many would measure the mettle of a player/team by the old maxim "Ah, but what would he/they be like on a wet and windy night at Stoke"? Our players/team were so measured last night and stood up to the challenge.

For me, Robles and Schneiderlin were the pick of our team last night but I'd give an honourable mention to the often criticised Jimmy Mac. It seemed to me that he (possibly prompted by Koeman) saw from the sidelines what was needed and came on to produce it – in a word, aggression, to match what we were up against.

A good point lads – well done and thanks for making the trip home a decent one.

Footnote for Lyndon and Michael – we sometimes have polls on various topics on TW. How about two at the end of the season for most positive and most negative poster of the year? Light-hearted of course and I'm sure any of us would be honoured to be recognised by nomination for either! I'd bet it would be difficult to come up with a shortlist for the latter although there are clearly a number of outstanding candidates!!

I had to turn off commentary as Danny Higginbotham was the summariser. He didn't summarise, just commented on the game as a Stoke supporter. Seem to remember him being a typical Stoke neanderthal when he played for them!

Agreed. A commanding central defender with good distribution is a must. Williams is just too traditional. Also I think Mirallas needs replacing with a high quality goal scoring creative midfielder.

Then we will be there ready to challenge. Stoke is always going to be a tough game so a draw is okay.

Gradually Koeman is getting things right.

I would however love to hear your views as to which "playmaker, commanding CB and LB cover" you believe were good enough and most importantly available in January.

We're a work in progress, but there are plenty of points still up for grabs. We have to start games quickly, be on the front foot against all the teams left to play. Don't let any of the fuckers do the League double against us.

As for the Beeb bias, can we not ban them from all home games at least... even if it means we turn into Millwall of the Premier League... fuck 'em, we're still WAY to nice all-round.

Nice guys finish last!

Passing 40 points before end of February (only 3 to go!) would be very welcome given the nagging worries of the last two abysmal seasons and should psychologically free the team (and the fans) to play with a bit more adventure to get three points.

Fingers crossed.

Up-front Everton look distinctively off the pace, and there was no real width to put a smile on Lukaku's face. At the back, there is a worry the defence will crumble if there are not midfielders to help them out. The goal-keeping position though is looking better, with Robles making important saves in matches he has played in.

We've had from September to February to get these players in and what makes you think they'll all be available in the summer?

There weren't the right type of players available in January.

Koeman has said he will only bring in the players he really wants, and not the nearest "type" available in that particular window.

Given that we are getting points on the board, we are improving in my opinion and that this was always going to be a transition season rather than an instant fix after the mess we were in. I agree with this approach rather than just "getting the bodies in". (I know you didn't say this).

So I will give you your old chestnut back with a slight modification: which is that the individual that he wants, rather than the type, obviously wasn't available yet.

I really do like the look of Lookman so far by the way, as an aside.

He's got a decision to make about Ross. We all want him to succeed but its getting to the point where we cant afford so many unforced errors – better teams than Stoke will punish us.

Of course, given that Everton perform to their full potential, they should win a few games in the next month or so, but football doesn't always work that way.

When we have a team on a par with Chelsea et al we can then dismiss our opponents most weeks, but we are very far from that situation at the moment and should just try and take each game as it comes.

There's nothing wrong with having ambition but there is a danger that we tend to set ourselves up for a fall on too many occasions and we often see the outcome on here and other sites.

As long as this Everton team is working hard and playing to its full potential, the results will hopefully follow, but remember the teams we play also have a stake in the game and it's their job to try and beat us. Every match is winnable against every opponent, but conversely every game can be lost, the trick is to try and win more than you lose or draw.

George (#114) – the reality is that neither you nor I know when players of the right type and quality will become available so as Joe implies we must bide our time.

Patrick (#123)

Correct. No easy games now. Tottenham, Man Utd and Arsenal all fail to beat teams at the bottom.

Pocchetino, Jose and Wenger all obviously haven't got a clue tactically. According to the logic used by some.

Dreary and poorly executed football from highly paid professionals tends to make me slightly negative (although i'm always at a loss to the significance of 'positivity' or 'negativity' on these matters - they seem like rather pointless and meaningless phrases to throw around)

But then again, if its the weather's fault (or Stokes style of play, or the BBC) then I stand corrected.

Even still, I reckon the accolade of 'negative twat of the year' is beyond even me. But thanks for considering me.

By the way, did you actually disagree with anything I wrote?

I don't want to get on Ross's back but he frustrates the hell out of me. He always picks the wrong option. There's encouraging signs though that Koeman is getting rid of the deadwood and I think we'll be a different team after the summer window. Schneiderlin looked great last night and his partnership with Gueye could be the best we've had since Reid and Bracewell.

We've got a decent set of fixtures coming up so hopefully we can maintain this unbeaten run.

There are a lot of disgruntled Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd fans out there who realised this week that their league title hopes are more or less over. At the start of December I was worried that Koeman was the wrong man for us as he was saying the wrong things, pissing off a lot of players and they seemed to be not working hard for him. He was playing a lot of the older guys and didn't seem interested in Davies, Holgate or any younger lads. There was no apparent style of football and we looked lost in our direction.

Now, it seems he's pushed out a lot of the players he and we deemed not up to the task. He's giving young players their chance and has even brought in a new one in Lookman. He seems to have made the brave decision to leave out Jags and Barry the odd time which would never have happened back in September / October.

How often under Moyes and Martinez would the fans be baying out for changes but the stubborn managers didn't seem to listen or think the same yet Koeman who seems very much his own man seems to have made nearly all the changes we wanted.

This time last year we were in 12th place with 29 points, 40 for and 34 against. Now we're on 27 points with 34 for and only 24 against. Koeman has certainly made good progress, at least he has changed most of our midfield and central defence which could explain why we are conceding so much less.

In your three posts you mentioned the poor start, they did start poorly (again) didn't they?

You mentioned the very poor passing, it was very poor wasn't it?

You finally mentioned the unforced errors of which there were many according to many who went to the game, and the poor quality of Everton's football, which might have been caused by the weather, but not all the time.

All-in-all, Ciaran, you got most things correct, so not really negative but truthful and realistic.

The back 5 didn't work out last night. The goal and two other very good chances came from poor defending. Not really sure where it went wrong, but will say Crouch stayed out the middle and Austrian lad had Holgate on toast.

Credit to Koeman for changing it. Barely got a grip in the second half but we did have our usual last 10-minute power drive. We came on strong and created the best chance via Davies and Lookman.

In a game we're little football was played the obvious players won and lost. Rom, Kev and Ross were anonymous. Morgan, Davies and surprisingly McCarthy clearly our best players.

Special mention to Robles, not spectacular by any means but competent and safe.

If we follow that up with a win a Saturday then that okay with me, a draw or defeat will have me thinking why did Koeman get outfoxed against Hughes using a back 5?

Maybe I could win "nail on the head geezer of the year". [shakes fists in the general direction of broadcasting house].

I was unfortunate enough to be at Vicarage Road on 10th Dec - that really was abysmal! Conversely I was lucky enough to be far away in Niagara for the Bournemouth game and in Madrid for the Chelsea debacle – in my view last night's performance was vastly superior to either of those but of course it's every one to his own on here!

There were however a number of positives in last night's game; for example, the performances of Joel, Schneiderlin, Davies (in parts), McCarthy (for 45 minutes) etc and I suppose it is the fact that you seemed to focus on the poor aspects of our play rather than the encouraging ones that drew my attention to your posts.

Anyway, no offence was meant, mate, and whilst you could get a nomination, you'd never win TW's most negative man award!!

I would imagine that Man Utd fans have more to analyse than we have.

"It was soooooo windy" ... was it? Those who were there will tell you it was no more than a stiff breeze, the sort of whether you are almost guaranteed for a large percentage of the EPL season.

Ciaran McGlone's comments are attacked for being negative, but they are the most positive on the thread; he saw shite and called it for what it was. He found it unacceptable. WTF is negative about that? ... and how come its "positive" to deny/ excuse/ apologise a truly lamentable performance? Since when was it "positive" to brush a shite performance under the carpet?

The self proclaimed "positive" need to adjust their outlook, Stoke have always been agricultural, but blaming them for OUR horrible performance is like blaming an unattractive girlfriend for being an ugly twat yourself.

Everton hardly play the most glamourous of football, they never won, so why would the BBC glorify them? Put Chelsea's strikers in Lukaku's position and a goal is very likely each and every time. The only time Everton win 3-1, 3-0, or more is if the other team don't play well, or call in sick. It's just not good enough. Stop all this "Everton have improved", and Koeman(Comical Ali) embellishing Everton's performance.

You can take the Stoke out of Pulis... but you sure as hell can't take the Pulis out of Stoke on this evidence though.

Add the famed Mark Hughes 'happy to give it, but whinge like a baby when you get it back...' attitude and you have Stoke in a nutshell.

They leave something in on every tackle, but just cannot tolerate a taste of their own medicine. Hughes is a narky-faced manager and was a spiteful player – and his team epitomise that image in every respect.

Shame, as they can play good football. But they still have to live up to their 'macho team' image it seems. Most of them look like Neanderthals and it is abundantly clear they are all drilled to rough the opposition up at every opportunity.

Happily, Everton wouldn't be bullied though and the referee was spot on from start to finish.

The other things that struck me from the game were:

i) Robles is developing into a confident keeper, but is still a bit timid when it comes to putting himself in front of a 50/50 ball when a forward is flying in. I know he saved two admirably from Arnautovic, but they were not as physically threatening and he had time to spread himself for the block without fear of injury. I thought he duffed out a bit in front of the more 'loose' ball Crouch got his feet to and should have been more imposing? Not the first time this season either...

ii) We are becoming very prone to a ball over the top down the left wing. Noticeably. For numerous games now. Urgently need to get that 'tactic' negated.

iii) Davies really is one hell of a prospect. Box to box, gets stuck in, confident, inspirational, makes himself available, courageous and a goal threat too. Am I going to be castigated for suggesting he could be our very own Gerrard?

iv) Good to see Koeman having the nous to change the balance of play by switching from a back three to a back four. Finally, he is starting to show signs of being capable of becoming the manager we need/expect .

v) How much longer are we going to leave Lukaku ploughing a lone furrow up front? One step backwards for Koeman on this one, as EVERYONE can see it is costing us possession, rendering promising breaks and attacks redundant and generally meaning that, if he doesn't score, we need an inspirational performance from someone, or a flukey bit of luck (a la last night), to grab goals. It is a self-imposed (stubborn?), short-sighted glass ceiling and will stymie any hopes we have of challenging the front runners.

Predictable and so easily nullified by any opposition manager with half a clue. But equally easily rectifiable with two up front and a matching game plan to get them both involved. Just chucking Mirallas up there and then leaving him stranded to seemingly play it by ear, is not the answer. Show us what you're made of Koeman and get it sorted.

The trouble is that you are at the other end of the spectrum. You are devoid of any positive thoughts altogether. We played distinctly average – 'a truly lamentable performance' it was not.

I've not read through the comments, I'm sure there's the odd happy clapper, but you really do your best to see the worst in everything, Darren. You're a deeply depressing person.

Man Utd can't be said to be short of players who can pass and move, but apparently suffer the same malaise as Everton's players, when it comes to finding the onion bag.

Did you miss 2014-15 and 2015-16, John? Because whilst we may have scored more than most teams our defence was utter crap, it's not much better now but at least for the most part it's organised. When did some Evertonians start to believe that they should be watching Barca or Bayern every week?

I had a great time with mates last night before and after the game... You probably had a great time too brushing up on your Ken Dodd routine.

What, and miss all those positive comments?!

Prepare for melt down :-)

It would be interesting to hear a counter argument from somebody who actually has one.

So many of these threads are hijacked by people who repeatedly post without actually saying anything.

I too had a great time with mates before and after going to the game... As going to the game is such a chore to you, why interrupt your great time by doing so?

I was here a long time before Koeman was and I will be here long after he leaves. I support my team – no matter who is in charge

You say there is a counter argument to my points. Let's hear yours.

Did we pass badly last night?

Did we play into Stoke and Crouch's hands by defending far too deep instead of pushing up towards the half-way line?

Did our centre-backs hoof it far too often?

Was our football ugly, disjointed and directionless?

Did Lukaku constantly isolate himself by getting too far ahead of the midfield ?

If the answer to any of these questions is a No, then I was at a different ground than you.

We committed the cardinal sin of starting badly against Stoke. We were slow, they got the early goal, their tails were up, we didn't know what to do, so we went deep. Too deep.

Second half was better. They didn't do much, but our passing was awful. Not the ones where various players tried something incisive that didn't work, it was just generally awful. That was the reason we didn't win.

I liked the fact we harangued the officials to get the right decision. I liked the way we stuck at it. I loved the authority, presence and control Schneiderlin had, plus the energy and nous of Davies and Lookman. And Robles looked good, again.

Darren's comments about our lack of style got me thinking of many conversations I had with non-Blues in 1985. The gist of these conversations were that we had no style, we just pushed the other team back in their own half and let our creative players make use of the space, or just bludgeon the opposition into submission.

These days it's called pressing to make it sound scientific, but it was what most of the successful English clubs did. So I can see what Koeman's trying to do. I think he's got to get these, or other players, to do it when the other side presses back or parks the bus.

I hope he plays Holgate on Saturday. I hope he brings Gueye back, keeps Davies and drops Barkley. And I hope he plays Lookman from the start. These kids are raw, they commit howlers, but boy they've got something about them that makes things happen.

For me, we're getting close. I'm not prepared to get excited till we get consistently closer and we have players that are prepared to grab the game and push the other side back regardless of what it does.

Hope that's not too happy clappy.

Joint top of the form table for last six league games.

Who knows where we will be when we stop passing badly.

Stop defending far too deep.

Stop our centre backs hoofing it.

Stop playing disjointed and directionless football.

However, there were, in my view, positives. Robles was excellent, I believe he will solve the goal keeping problem.

Holgate will have learned one hell of a lot from that, and with good coaching he will get better and better. Tom Davies was tested and came through.

Our coach showed flexibility and decisiveness (you may disagree with that one). We ground out a draw and could have nicked a win. I detected a togetherness about the players that, to me, bodes well.

I saw the gaps between our back line and our forwards. There is much work to be done but there is progress. I find it as frustrating as you that Koeman seems to pick up late on things that seem obvious to us.

For the moment, though, I can only accept that he is a highly paid coach who has the trust of the board, he MUST know what he is doing and I believe he does. Onward and upward, Darren, but continue to be sceptical, that's fair enough.

SSN PLY W D L GF GA PTS GD PPG POS
2006-07 23 8 8 7 29 23 32 6 1.39 7th
2007-08 23 13 3 7 40 23 42 17 1.83 4th
2008-09 23 10 7 6 31 27 37 4 1.61 6th
2009-10 23 8 8 7 33 34 32 -1 1.39 9th
2010-11 23 5 12 6 27 29 27 -2 1.17 13th
2011-12 23 8 5 10 23 26 29 -3 1.26 10th
2012-13 23 9 11 3 35 26 38 9 1.65 5th
2013-14 23 11 9 3 35 24 42 11 1.83 6th
2014-15 23 6 8 9 31 34 26 -3 1.13 12th
2015-16 23 6 11 6 40 34 29 6 1.26 12th
2016-17 23 10 7 6 34 24 37 10 1.61 7th

I've never met Darren or Ciaran but it is obvious they love Everton as much as anyone on ToffeeWeb and only want the best for the club, like all of us on here.

It's amazing how you can be made to reconsider by people who actually have something to say.

It's good to get an alternative point of view about last night's match... on a thread that is meant to be about last night's match.

The positives are not the things that need to be addressed and fixed.

If people want to blow smoke up people's arses after that performance then fair enough... that's their prerogative... but there seems to be a prevailing mob on here obsessed with berating posters if they're not balanced, positive, wearing a grass skirt and flying a fucking kite.

That was a miserable display and it made me miserable. I make absolutely no apologies for that.

I'm off to work.

If you look at the bulk of research around feedback, the results will tell you that you get a greater increase in performance when you talk about what people have done well and get them thinking about where else they can do it and how they can improve it further, rather than making them try to improve their weaknesses. I can tell you that's a hard sell in workplaces, but that's what the evidence tells you.

Some may call it happy clappy, I call it evidenced research.

He has mentioned once or two hundred times already that he wants them to press. That some of them are having difficulty understanding and implementing this 'skill'. That they need to do it as a team. That different sections of the team are too deep or too advanced, etc to do so successfully. That players need to 'run more'.

Why don't they? Maybe they're idiots and are completely clueless? Maybe they think that 'dirty work' like actually moving about a bit is beneath them? Maybe the years of not doing a particular thing and instead doing something else has made more of an impression on them than the few months of trying to get them to do something new has?

Old habits die hard, etc. Maybe events in a game influence their judgement and they find themselves doing something instinctually. Like dropping deeper and deeper.

I expect the usual responses. 'He's the manager'. 'That's what he gets paid £6 million a year for', etc. What is he supposed to do to make them play a particular way consistently?

Incidentally, you did say it was a 'decent point' in your first post. That's a positive surely? ;)

I agree. It's clear we need to improve; I don't blindly back the manager regardless. My point is he must be doing something right recently if we are top of the form table for last 6 games.

Hard to deny he is making good progress, but you would think we were fighting to avoid dropping into the relegation fight looking at some of the posts.

I don't doubt Darren and Ciaran love the Blues. But hopefully they don't doubt that the "happy clappers" and the "grass skirted kite flyers" love the Blues as much.

Your Tony posted the other week about a poster being like Koeman in his blunt manner of posting. Nothing wrong with that; I prefer that to be honest. As long as the blunt poster doesn't see his khasi when the bluntness is returned. Like for like and all that...

Worked fucking wonders for Roberto that didn't it, Paul?

Seeng as though you cited 'confirmation bias'; perhaps your own statement borders on post-hoc ergo propter hoc?

For me, there HAS been a tangible improvement, though the jury's still out... I'd like to see our keeper less exposed by roaming defenders, our forward players keeping hold of the hot potato, and possibly supplying it to the only guy who seems to know where the net is: we rely too much on defenders to add to Rom's tally.

Also, some help for Baines if Barry isn't playing – we seem all right-sided. Apart from that, I'm behind the team and manager 100%, as every blue needs to be, and am expecting a good result against the Cherries, and a late rally when the pitches imporove, and our class players are at their best. COYB

I watched the game in the US online with someone who was constantly pointing out the mistakes, being really critical and creating a negative atmosphere. It wasn't fun. I can see the problems and some of the solutions, but at that moment I want to support my team.

I spent many years on the terraces and know how important it is to vocally support the boys. I don't want to watch the games with someone who only sees the problems.

I punch the couch and wake up the family screaming like anyone else, but I can let it go and get back to enjoying the game as much as possible. I'm a "glass half-full" kinda guy, tea of course.

So what if they are aggressive and nasty, part of the game at the top level. Teams with proper ambition should be blowing this rubbish away.

Two points dropped and a poor performance, not good enough for a club of Everton's standards.

There is a reason why we are a mishmash of a team and that, in at least 20 of our games this season, we have been disjointed and an eyesore.

To play the "pressing game" you need to move up as a unit, a proper unit. If only one or two do it, they are made to look twats. They are passed around with ease.

Ashley Williams is a model pro and he has proved he can play at this level, but he is painfully slow. He knows it, his opponents know it. He's not comfortable leaving space behind him. So he stays at home.

I've become more and more sympathetic to Lukaku's situation. The guy is being asked to hunt and he is crap at it. Opposition players will play it around him as if he isn't there. He's then blamed for walking back from offside positions.

The rest of the team will see a 60-yard gap between Williams and Lukaku and don't know whether to shit or bust. we often find ourselves strung out like a washing line. That's why we are often forced to hoof it and look so disjointed.

THAT, my friend, is Koeman's fault. You don't buy Ashley Williams if you want to play a primitive (but effective) pressing game.

A football pitch is like a theatre. You'll only entertain the audience if you have the right people in the right roles. If you ask a woman to play lead male and a man to play lead female, you end up with a fucking pantomime.

You have submitted some fantastic stuff in recent debates, but I'm afraid JD gave your last effort the treatment it deserved.

When we beat Man City, the praise for Koeman as universal. Proof positive that his critics can be brought on board.

Unfortunately we have people who cant/wont see the flaws. They are not difficult to spot. They'll start a sentence with something like "I don't blindly back the manager regardless" then, without any real counter argument to the criticism, they will come on here and back the manager... regardless

That's not supporting the team, it's blind devotion. I don't see how that can be healthy for our club.

Accept/excuse shite and they will serve it to you by the bucket.

I was actually responding to a post which stated that when we play badly we should just focus on the negatives. I disagree with that, just like I disagree with the idea that because Martinez was ultimately a baseless optimist, all other optimists are equally baseless.

People improve by utilising and improving their strengths. Southall told the tale of how he hated Kendall at one point because he had told him what he liked about his goalkeeping and made him practice it continuously. He realised later that it gave him the confidence to be braver in other aspects of his game and he became one of the best keepers I've seen.

There's a huge difference between saying Koeman's team plays pug ugly football and they'd improve if the back four had the confidence to press more and the midfield passed the ball better. Darren made both good points in the same post. One statement you can't learn from, one statement you can. That's my point.

And you're right, John, I have loads of confirmation bias, like everyone on this planet. I also like to see both sides of an argument.

Bit rich for you to claim people don't answer questions: you never answer a question. But let's give you the opportunity to keep your record up.

Do you think Koeman has improved the team? Yes/No? If No, can you explain why we are top of the form league for the last 6 games?

As I said earlier, you talk bluntly to people on TW (which you do with the exception of one who you don't go anywhere near). Reminds me of my football days. We played a team in our derby game who had a kicker in the midfield, he used to kick fuck out of all the other teams in the league. All except our own kicker who he was wary of.

After he jibbed it in our game his manager made a cunt out of him: "Hey, if you want to kick, you've got to kick them all."

There are many negative points to our play however there are some positives. In my view, to focus solely on the negatives to the complete exclusion of the positives is overall a negative approach. It seems that we disagree.

Yes, I agree Koeman is improving the progress of the team but it will not happen overnight.

After the two previous games, it looked as though we were on the up (I still think we are), but then to see them start the game with the same weakness, not really getting into the game until 20 minutes had passed, the same basic very poor passing, which has been there for the last three seasons with no improvement, the lack of movement, especially up front, gets people's backs up and so they point these faults out, maybe out of frustration, but they are still valid points.

At the end of the day, we are all supporting the same team, show it in different ways, but all want the same outcome: Success for Everton FC.

My own pet dislike is Lukaku; I want him to score every game. The more he scores, the quicker he will get his wish to move away from Everton; the less he scores means clubs might start looking at the rest of his game... it won't take long, and then he will never get the move he wants and he will be stuck at a club where he doesn't want to be and we will be stuck with him, which will make more Evertonians happy than unhappy. The other side of that situation could be that Lukaku has a good go at improving his all-round game, then everyone will be happy.

I agree with your point. And more importantly the way you make it.

Easy to give it the 'happy clapper' bollocks, just gets people's backs up.

I can however readily identify those who focus entirely on the negatives and are unwilling to acknowledge any positives. In a way, they and and so-called "happy clappers" are cut from the same cloth albeit (at the risk of mixing metaphors!) at different ends of the spectrum.

It's further proof that the media only pander to the top clubs.

"Teams with proper ambition should be blowing this rubbish away."

-- carries slightly less weight in a week where United couldn't beat Hull, Spurs couldn't beat Sunderland and Arsenal flat-out lost to Watford at home.

The 'happy clapper' tag is not aimed at people who simply support Koeman. Most on here are knowledgeable balanced people who are prepared to accept his shortcoming because they believe his strengths will outweigh his weaknesses. I get that.

I don't believe we will ever be successful under Koeman. To the point that I would bet a large sum of money on it. I believe he does dither, he is boring, and he misses the obvious... does that make me right? Of course not, I've lost numerous bets before. But I say what I see and I say what's in my heart.

I don't care if I'm in a minority. It would be pretty pointless for me to come on here and give somebody else's view. I like when people speak to me in plain good old-fashioned scouse rhetoric. I understand their language even if I disagree with their point. The 'happy clapper' tag is aimed at a small minority; if you don't see them on these pages, I will help you out.

Look at anything from John G Davies, I mean anything... on any thread. The guy will deny all criticism of the Koeman, no matter how true, how fair, or how reasonably put. If you think I'm wrong, look for yourself. He hates anybody saying this, but when challenged to point to a single case where he has been "balanced", the best he can come up with is, "we" need to change.

Now there's nothing wrong in blind devotion if you are prepared to admit it, or you didn't get aggressive with posters who criticise the guy you adore.

The 'blind devotion' label is not my stock answer to those who disagree with me. It's reserved solely for those who practice it. Koeman's been here seven months and we have experienced some dark days during that time. But I bet nobody can find a single Koeman-related thread where John G Davies comes even close to apportioning any blame to the Dutchman. You wouldn't have thought that was even possible.

I will always reply to your posts, as I do to Andy and Paul T and others... but I've come to realise, you can't debate with blind devotion.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. Bournemouth next...

Is the fact that we didn't beat Stoke and can't be guaranteed to beat teams like Stoke a negative? Not a bit – the game has changed dramatically in recent years... yet some seem to have missed it? This week, Watford won at Arsenal and Hull got a point at Man Utd. Liverpool lowered their standards a very small amount and lost three home games to much lesser sides

Is the lack of marquee signings a negative? Not a bit – development has to be slow and, from now on, developing home key players will be the crucial issue everywhere. Are we negative in developing our own young players? Not a bit – we are very good.

Is being 7th a negative point? Not a bit – that is just about where we should be now in terms of development and resources.

Is the future looking negative at the moment, given that we were effectively broke a few years back? Not a bit – I see only positive aspects when I look at what is happening at the club. We are also in a run of very good results and have played well. Was the Stoke game ugly? Yes... but a lot of modern matches are ugly because the difference between teams form the Premier League and even the Championship is small. Is that a negative? Not a bit – the whole world watches the English Premier League.

There are no "happy clappers" in the Everton fan base. That is a childish and stupid epithet to classify any of our fans with. In the main, our fans are knowledgeable and reasonable people. There is a tiny minority who won't see anything positive and only look for negativity. I'm sure that there's a word for it... but not for me, as a reasonable fan, to use. Other fan groups use "bitter" but I'd never say that.

Darren. Your reply to my post re the kicker who would kick every opponent except one, the one who he gave a miss, shows me you know who I am referring to.

Never mind... it is probably a wise decision you made.