The following is an excerpt from Everton: An Oral History that tells the story of Everton's so-near-yet-so-far brush with the Holy Grail of the Uefa Champions League in 2005.
Alan Irvine: David and I, every summer, would go and spend some time thinking, ‘What new practices can we make up? What can we change? How can we freshen it up?' I think that probably one of the things that dawned on me was in the first season — the first pre-season — we went to St Andrews and we had meetings in the hotel to talk about how the team would work together, with the players. In the first year those meetings were fantastic, and we actually laid down the ground rules about how as a whole team and playing staff we were going to work for the whole season. We tried the same meeting the next pre-season in St Andrews and I thought it was a disaster. I felt as if it we didn't get anything like the positive outcomes out of it. And that was probably a situation which should have been ringing alarm bells, you know? That maybe the players were going to find ‘crikey that was hard work, getting to seventh. Not sure if we can do that again'.
Alan Stubbs: David had a way of how he wanted his pre-seasons to go, no matter what. And knowing the fitness coaches that were there, Dave Billows, they probably had heated discussions on how it should go, and you've got Dave trying to bring in some new evolution of how pre-season training should go, and you've got David with his strong-minded beliefs of how or what he wanted to get out of pre-season. You can imagine the two of them going head to head, some interesting conversations. But David would always win, and they were really tough pre-seasons, probably as tough as what I've encountered.
Leon Osman: We went to [2004/05] pre-season in Houston — went to Austria first but then went to Houston. We'd worked under him for a while; he was very tense and very uptight. He didn't drop his standards, but his demeanour and manner just became more relaxed. It just really helped. We got there and he was usually very regimented but we got there in the middle of the day, say Friday, three o'clock, and we didn't train. We had that afternoon to ourselves, the evening, the full day the next day where we all played golf, and then had a night out. We didn't start training until the afternoon on the Sunday, because we had to acclimatise. That was so unlike David Moyes. It was usually get there, ‘Right let's get your boots out and go for a run.'
Alan Irvine: By the third year it was probably a case of well, that isn't a magic pill, having the meeting at St Andrews, we don't need to do that again. What we need to do is find a way where we can reignite the way that we were playing before.
Leon Osman: We had pretty much two full days on our own, and we had such a good time. We did all sorts, it was ridiculous. Ice rinks and golf and drinking, everything. It was like a mini stag do. But then when we got ready two days later, started training, it was like ‘Right, we've enjoyed ourselves here, this is it. Let's keep up, let's get back now.' And it just seemed to work. We'd had such a good time, up until then, so all of these stories lasted the rest of this trip, because you'd had your fun and every time in training something happened, you referred to something you'd done in the last few days. And it just became such togetherness, such a close knit group. And just constantly laughing and yet able to do your work.
Lee Carsley: We were doing an evening session in Houston. It had gone dark because there was no floodlights on the pitch. We'd finished a running session, which was an outrageous session, he fucking ran us into the ground he did. He got us all together in the centre circle and he said, ‘Listen lads, Wayne's going, I'm not bringing anyone in, this is going to be our squad for the season, so get your heads around the fact that we need to stick together and we need to pull together, and we need to fucking go for it.' That for me was one of them moments where the team just bonded. We got together. It was the best team talk he ever did whilst I was there.
Alan Stubbs: It probably brought all the lads together really quickly. I think it probably was a catalyst for us doing pretty well. I think it's difficult to turn round and go, ‘That was the reason why the season went so well,' or ‘that was the reason why the season went so poorly.' I think it's a number of factors that can ultimately lead to a good or a bad experience.
David Moyes: It was a play-off game. I said to Bill, ‘Will you come and watch a player at Millwall with me?' We had already met a few players in Bill's office, we'd done it with a couple of other players — we met a couple who we didn't really like. We didn't like their attitude. The two of us worked on it together. I took him to Millwall and said, ‘Come and look at this boy in the Championship who I really like.' We actually went to see three players: Lucas Neill, Steven Reid, Tim Cahill. And Tim was the one who I had my eye on. He was a midfield player who could get in the box and score. And I liked the thought of it. Anyway, we got him into the office as well, and Tim's charm and character, personality, he'd win over anybody, he really would. He won over Bill, and it matters a lot to Bill. Bill wanted to see people who had big heart and a big personality.
Mike Hughes: I can remember speaking to David Moyes about Tim Cahill. Tranmere had played Millwall in a night game and David Moyes had gone over to watch and I asked about Tim Cahill and he said, ‘No not interested in him. I've seen that in the papers we're not interested in Tim Cahill.' Obviously they then signed him. David Moyes would never tell you or wouldn't tell you much with regards to that sort of thing. I remember asking him on a Saturday after a match the transfer window closed on the Monday or the Tuesday in January, ‘Do you think Everton will be signing anybody?' ‘Er no we won't be doing any business' and they signed four players. That was what David Moyes was like.
Tony Hibbert: To be honest, with Tim, £1.5 million we didn't expect a world beater, we didn't expect a lad from the local park. We expected a normal player, we didn't expect anything. With him training, he was a normal honest lad and a good player, a very good player. He didn't light us up, this unbelievable kid, but as the games went on, he more or less bought into the whole idea, and I think it helped him that he was close to me, he was close to Ozzy, he was close to a lot of people that were close to the club. He bought into the fact that it's Everton Football Club, and we would die for this club.
Alan Irvine: We were a great move for Tim and he was a great fit for us, because Tim wasn't going to go and play in one of the top teams, but he had the chance to come and play every week for us. It was a great step for him and a terrific signing from the club's point of view.
Hana Roks: He had the passion and he loved Everton. When you got a corner you thought, ‘Tim Cahill's head's going on this.' And he had quite a little nasty streak in him as well which I always love. I always remember him losing his boot, I think it was at Blackburn away, and he's scored and he's had no boot and it was just great. He's just one of those players where you could be in the 97th minute drawing 0-0 and you think ‘Cahill'll step up here.' Obviously we didn't know much about him he'd come from Millwall and I knew he'd played against United when Millwall got beat 3-0 [in the 2004 FA Cup Final]. I think that's really the only time I'd seen him play, but he came to us and the rest is history.
Simon Hart: Maybe the World Cup shouldn't be viewed as the ultimate barometer and the Champions League should be, but Tim Cahill went and scored in three different World Cup finals. I think if you put him on a big stage, he tended to grow on that stage, rather than the other way round. And he'd do it in the biggest games for Everton. So I would say he's world class, and I love the fact that Cahill, at a time when other players would leave Everton citing lack of ambition, not only remained, but bought into the city and the club.
Alessandro Pistone: They were always trying to discover these new and upcoming players, young players with great potential to bring to Everton and to build up a new team, a big team. Obviously not spending massive money to bring in players with already three, four, five seasons in the Premier League because obviously you have to face up with the fact that you cannot compare with — at that time — teams like Manchester United, Arsenal, with massive money to spend. So they were always trying to do the things cleverly.
Leon Osman: Rooney hadn't gone at that point, but we all knew he was going. He'd injured his foot. We'd brought in this lad Tim Cahill who had scored a couple of goals for Millwall. Seen his goals, he was a good player but we hadn't met him yet, because he was at the Olympics. So we just had our little team and our little squad. I wouldn't say we were thinking, ‘We're confident' and all that, but we had smiles on our faces. We were enjoying playing football with each other. And that always helps.
Tony Hibbert: The team spirt was unbelievable. Great bunch of lads, friends on and off the pitch. It was brilliant. The club itself to be honest, from staff in the canteen to secretaries, it felt good, it felt a good place as a unit. It was just a good place to be.
Leon Osman: We didn't start off the season too well, but I think they were still ‘The Invincibles' back then, Arsenal, weren't they? We lost 4-1, but then we went to Palace, 1-0 down early again. And then their keeper — Julian Speroni — changed our season. Kev Campbell robbed him of the ball and from then we never looked back. The belief, the confidence, we just had all of it. Things fell into place, we went to Old Trafford and drew, we beat West Brom. The happiness and the excitement and the togetherness when we celebrated, every one of us got in a huddle. I think we were still referring to, ‘Do you remember that in Houston?' It was a really good time for us.
Kevin Campbell: Again it was that toughness. Tinkered with the formation, we started playing 4-5-1, and what tended to happen was Tim Cahill came in, who had a fantastic ability to get into the box late. The striker had to lead the line, so when the striker's leading the line you tended to find that the strikers weren't scoring a lot of goals, but Tim Cahill, who was kind of joining in, was getting quite a bit of the goals. Moyes tinkered with the system and it worked. Hard to beat, tough, hardnosed club again, which the fans love.
Alan Irvine: You've no doubt heard it plenty of times — goals change games and if you do get a goal and you are a team that is very determined, then there's a fair chance that goal might just be enough for you. Tim's goals were [important] things, but you know he headed plenty of balls in our box as well.
Leon Osman: Tommy Gravesen was one of the most technically gifted players I have ever played with. Skill, range of passing, strength. But defensively, we called him, ‘Mad Dog', because he just ran all over the place like a mad dog. So it was always difficult for Lee Carsley to play in a 4-4-2 with him because you need to work as a two, and Tommy would run all over the place, charge round people and leave big gaps. So it just fell perfectly for us because Tim Cahill could do both and Tommy could do both. So between them, they did half a job each to help Cars. So Cars did the main job and they did half a job each, and yet Tim got forward with his other half and Tommy created everything with his other half.
David Moyes: He was tough, Tim. He was tough, and he wasn't a great football player as far as midfield passers go. And this is where his position developed into a bit of a number ten, in between a midfield player and a forward. And Tim being what he was meant we had to try and find a way of playing which fitted Tim Cahill in. But at this time we'd started to bring in Mikel Arteta. We also had Leon Osman, a similar type, so you talk about style… I used to laugh when I heard people say it, because I used to think, ‘Well, what style do you play with Mikel Arteta and Leon Osman?' Yeah we had another type which was a Tim Cahill, or in the past it was Duncan Ferguson, Kevin Campbell, whatever, but we were trying to evolve our style to become better with our football.
Danny Cadamarteri: He played like a man possessed. He was all over the pitch. He'd chase the ball into the full-back, and the full-back would play it to the centre half, he'd chase it to the centre half and that centre half would play it to the other centre half, and he would run it down and play it to the other full- back, he'd chase the other full-back and then he'd win the ball.
Lee Carsley: My role was to give Tim and Thomas the licence to get forward, get second balls, to keep the play moving simply, to plug gaps in defence when needed, just be a good team player. We'd done a lot of work on the back four and myself in front; defending, defending, defending, wave after wave of attack against twelve players, fourteen players, sixteen players, and we just developed a real resilience. Along with Richard Wright and Nigel Martyn behind us, we forged a great unit.
Alan Stubbs: You didn't know what you were going to get from Thomas Gravesen, and I think that was the thing that was good about him. But I don't think Thomas knew what he was going to give you, so if he didn't know, then we wouldn't have a clue! But when he did perform, he was, at times, excellent throughout the season. Kevin Kilbane was probably a typical David Moyes player. Very honest, really hardworking, run forever, big, strong, powerful; and he was a brilliant lad.
Kevin Campbell: Tim's got a great leap on him, so he's got a better chance of winning that ball. He mastered it, didn't he? He mastered getting in the box late, which was great.
Nigel Martyn: I think defensively we got better. The midfield, he went with three in the midfield or five all the way across, and we had workers there that ran their socks off every game. With Marcus Bent up front that season, he was very mobile, so he could run into channels.
David Weir: I can remember winning a lot of games 1-0, and I can remember us having a lot of momentum and a good spirit about the place, and just a belief that we were going to win games. Definitely the pieces fell into place, Thomas Gravesen was a big part of it and the unity within the group was good. But again, you wonder if that comes from winning or vice versa. That's the kind of conundrum associated with football — what comes first? But the system itself, it wasn't revolutionary. We were hardworking, we were one upfront, and we played on the counter attack quite a lot, even at home sometimes, the opposition — especially the better teams — would have more of the ball. Marcus Bent was lightning quick, Tim Cahill could pop up with a goal, and defensively we were pretty sound, Lee Carsley being a big part of that, and Nigel Martyn I think was a goalkeeper at the time; top class players.
By the start of 2005 Everton had 40 points — more than they'd gained in the entire previous season — and were occupying a Champions League spot. In January they signed Southampton's centre-forward, James Beattie, for a club record £6million and Real Sociedad's midfielder, Mikel Arteta. Thomas Gravesen, however, was a surprise departure to Real Madrid.
Alan Stubbs: We would always be shouting and encouraging Thomas to get back in, whereas Mikel, he brought that discipline, but it was a controlled discipline. He was technically not as skilful as Thomas, but in terms of retention of the ball, distribution of passing, probably scoring a few goals, scoring goals and all from set pieces, he had a bigger influence on the team. He didn't have the dribbling ability of Thomas, even though Mikel was very good, but Mikel gave us probably something that at that time was probably more consistent of what we needed.
Leon Osman: We didn't really know much about [Mikel] when he came in, but what a good player he was. He seemed to fit in seamlessly, everyone took to him really well. I think we brought James Beattie in at roughly the same time, and he was another one. He came in and found his way in the team. Things just worked out for us at that point.
Tony Hibbert: Mikel was a brilliant player. Football ability-wise he was brilliant. To be honest I didn't realise how good he was until he came, but he probably gave us that football side of things.
Alan Irvine: Mikel had the reputation of somebody who was a nice footballer but didn't really work that hard. Mikel came in and fitted in brilliantly. I love players like Mikel, Steven Pienaar and Leon Osman and Leighton Baines — really talented footballers, technically very good, very aware of what is going on round about them, but they were all great characters as well. Fabulous footballers' and great professionals. The training was getting better and better. Mikel was a huge addition.
Kevin Campbell: I'd left by the time he came in, I'd gone. But obviously I watched from a distance. Mikel Arteta was a fantastic player. He was a dictator of the tempo of the game, which Everton really didn't have. Being able to dictate the tempo means that you control the game. Everton tended to control the game a lot better, and once you can control the game and control the tempo, you've got a better chance of winning games.
Many factors helped Everton's ascendancy that season, including a resurgent Duncan Ferguson, who put years of injury problems behind him to play a telling part in the campaign — often from the bench. On 20 April 2005 Everton effectively secured Champions League qualification with a 1-0 over Manchester United; Ferguson's winner the high point of one of the finest performances of his career.
David Moyes: It was incredible the night Duncan scored against Manchester United. I always think of Everton as a hard-working, industrial football club. They always talk about the School of Science, and I can see the players that they had, but I don't think I saw any of the great Everton sides that weren't competitive. When I think of Everton of the past I would think of Andy Gray and Graeme Sharp upfront, Trevor Steven one side, Kevin Sheedy, maybe Reidy and Bracewell, whoever it may be. I wouldn't have said they were going into those games not at it every game. I still saw Everton in that picture, that was my picture of Everton. I wanted to try and get a team — that could never be as good, never be the same — but could follow that picture.
Tony Hibbert: From the minute you kicked off you just knew. From the changing rooms, leading into the game, you just knew, he'd tell you he was up for it, no matter what. And you just knew, ‘Wow, we're going to get a game from Fergie here.'
Leon Osman: It was like winning the league for us. It was ridiculous. It was my first full season, and we'd done this, and who knows, imagine what can come next. It was really a good achievement. We got off to such a good start, we were in the top four pretty much all year, and really did deserve what we got.
Alan Stubbs: After that start, we just thought, ‘You know what, we'll just keep doing our own thing, we'll just keep going and see where it takes us.' And we probably got strength from everybody writing us off. Because from early on, you see, ‘Oh Everton have started off really well, but that will peter off, they'll probably finish in the top eight', type of thing, and it probably give us a bit of an extra incentive. As well as that, we had David driving it home all the time, because David would turn around and say he wanted to finish first. And we would all be like, ‘Yeah, okay, good one.' But that was him. He brought not just a winning mentality, but a real desire to not take second best. And with that group he certainly just seemed to light the fuse paper with it. And for that season it worked.
Nigel Martyn: The season before was such a struggle and it was hard work. That's when it's a tough place to be, where you're going in every day and you've lost again say the week before, you're down in a relegation fight. The following season you're up challenging for Europe, you're winning games, you're getting good results against big sides. Everything is brighter, your confidence is up, it's a much happier place to be. Training wise and on match day you feel a lot more confident, and it's not something that you can manually switch on and off, it's just literally how you feel. We, in that second season, were feeling better about ourselves, a bit more than we were the season before.
Kevin Campbell: Everton done so well to get into Europe, the Champions League. That actually bucked the trend, didn't it? That was like winning the division, because breaking into that top four was unheard of.
Leon Osman: You certainly look back now — and just think if we'd have done that now or if ten years ago Everton would have had the financial backing to go and support what we did… but we were a team; we'd just finished seventeenth, had to sell Wayne Rooney to pay the bills, couldn't invest any of it, got a great team together, managed to finish fourth, suddenly you've got all these extra games. And we brought in one player to strengthen. I think it was Simon Davies, who happened to be in my position, by the way. Imagine nowadays a team finishing fourth in the league and then buying one player? Without strengthening you're not going to be able to keep going.
After Liverpool's surprise Champions League triumph over AC Milan UEFA had to decided which of the two Merseyside clubs to allow into the draw. The rules clearly showed it should be Everton, but the governing body deliberated. In the end a compromise was reached: Liverpool would enter qualification at the first qualifying round; Everton would still enter in the final qualifying round. The draw would not prove kind though: the Toffees found themselves up against Villarreal, who had just finished third in La Liga and possessed the brilliant Juan Roman Riquelme in their ranks.
David Moyes: The build-up to it was obviously Liverpool winning the Champions League. I remember I was at home and the Liverpool game was on. I remember the staff were texting 1-0 Milan, 2-0, 3-0. The staff were all texting, ‘Great, great'. And by the end of it I had booked a flight to get out of the country, because I couldn't stand the thought. We had finished fourth, Liverpool had finished fifth and Everton had very rarely finished above them in [recent] history. For us to do it and find we were sort of trumped by Liverpool was terrible. So I got of the country. I remember phoning Bill Kenwright and saying ‘Tell me there's not many people on the streets Bill,' when Liverpool were parading the trophy, and he said ‘You don't want to know David.' So I was glad I got away. So that was the build-up.
Nigel Martyn: Celebrating finishing above them was great and then they go and spoil it by winning probably the most exciting European Cup final in memory.
Leon Osman: There was talk of us not suddenly getting Champions League and them not getting Champions League, qualifiers and all that.
Faith In Our Families is available now from deCoubertin Books
Reader Comments (141)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 13/11/2017 at 08:54:46
Never forgotten that's why we are the People's Club.
COYB always magnificent!!!
2 Posted 13/11/2017 at 12:24:04
3 Posted 13/11/2017 at 12:30:23
I never saw Gravesen and he's only ever mentioned once in awhile here.
According to this article, he was a top talent. Was he that good?
4 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:05:47
Problem was, the midfield and defenders always had to have in mind that he might lose possession and so would often hold back from getting in advance of him. As the excerpt shows, Carsley had the prime responsibility for covering when he did lose the ball.
5 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:30:57
I also loved Joseph Yobo. Moyes's first signing and often under-rated on these pages, I feel. He always looked like he might have an error in him but he was just so quick and strong! Wish we had a centre-back like him at the moment to be honest.
6 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:40:05
7 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:44:47
8 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:52:25
"He brought fireworks in one day.
"The physio's room was at the side of one of the pitches. The physio was one of the fittest guys at the club, he was in his 50s and used to play a bit.
"He was running with the injured players when Tommy comes out with a big rocket and fires it right at him."
9 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:53:15
No, he's tight.
"He had no outgoings, no bills," added McFadden. "He used to stay in Lee Carsley's flat. He didn't like having bills. He had a nice motor, but in the winter he'd sell it and buy a Renault Megane, because that's a 'winter car'.
"In the summer he wore new Hummel boots, but in the winter he dug out some leather ones and called them his 'winter shoes' - never boots."
In the Summer, Gravesen didn't care for plush holidays, he used to go stay in his mum's basement in Denmark.
10 Posted 13/11/2017 at 14:04:23
Short answer, James? No.
He was in fantastic form the first four months of the 2004-05 season, easily the best he had played in an Everton shirt but prior to that Tommy's performance levels were all over the place, veering from gash to good, with generous helpings of a sort of bald 'Bennett' from 'Commando' tribute act in-between.
As a mere spectator, there's no way I can go along with Alan Stubbs's assertion that Gravesen was superior to Arteta in either technique or his ability to beat a man (with the ball at his feet I mean, not mercilessly about the body and face).
There's a few reminiscences above that seem a bit ropy though. Osman saying Beattie came in and found his feet? Fuck me. He probably spent ages every morning fumbling about for them in a mad panic, fearing they'd been amputated in the middle of the night, until he calmed down and remembered they would usually magically sprout back again when he squeezed his moobs into a tight-fitting, sports bra. He was atrocious for the half a season after he signed (not much better after, either) and added almost nothing to the teams effort to secure fourth place. Stupidly butting someone in the back of the head was probably his sole impact.
Osman is off again when he claims only one new signing (Simon Davies) was made during the summer leading up to the Champions League qualifier. Pretty sure Matteo Ferrari, Per Krøldrup, Andy van der Meyde and Phil Neville all came in around that time... to undoubtedly leave teams on the continent absolutely crapping their keks at the thought of being drawn against the Blues.
11 Posted 13/11/2017 at 14:56:18
England got absolutely no change out of him, or that little mini me feller who played alongside him, who was, I think, at Bolton (name escapes me).
Definitely had 'it', but as with a lot of 'modern' players, you only get two good performances in every seven.
12 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:00:05
13 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:02:29
Reading the comments makes you realize the importance of psychology in how a team performs. Like with the St Andrews pre-season experience, you can't repeat it and get the same feeling or result.
I've always thought that was what made Fergie such a great manager: he realized this and was an expert and de-constructing and rebuilding a team which most people say he did seamlessly. I think every time he did it, he visibly improved upon what went before!
Fascinating read and interesting to see if Unsy can take some heart from the stories. I still do not know what to pin my colours to; the home-grown or the bought-in versions. I'll go with the home-grown for now and see how it shapes up.
Talking of home-grown, I am completely washed out with the England call-up for Dominic Red-Shite Solanke, when Dominic Calvert-Lewin was being talked up in the media beforehand. I bet some Redshite involved with communication at the BBC made the wrong call on purpose and no-one would back down or own up to the mistake!
14 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:06:56
I used to compare Tommy Gravesen to a British summer's day you never knew what you were going to get... he had that rare ability of being both the best and worst player in the same game.
But what you were guaranteed was 100% commitment, and as Ian (#6) says, Real Madrid saw something in him, but to be truthful I don't think that Tommy and Spanish football were made for each other.
15 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:07:12
When's the next gala dinner? Is it true Phil Neville is writing a book about 'that tackle' on Ronaldo?
16 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:22:50
17 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:46:08
That season was remarkable in many ways. Some very average players who just knew they were a cog in the machine and thats what they had to do.
We currently lack that type of unselfish player, even one who has limited ability but a good brain.
The seaon was filled with 1-0s and second half goals, my memory fades but fuck could we not muster a goal in the first half of games.
The United game was a thunderous occasion, under the lights and just a scrap.
Phil Dowd the referee that night let us get away with murder. We kicked and clawed at United. A referee who often was out of step with his type allowed a lot of physicality, often responded in kind when a player came with armed with a fouled mouthed rant. I enjoyed his ‘style.
The qualifier is almost a myth, legend in what actually happened. Many feel hard done by and even today a thread somewhere has something spewing about Collina and Uefa ‘fucking us over.
In truth we were poor in the first leg and not much better in the 2nd. Moyes was naive about Europe, and it showed we really got sucker punched at Goodison.
Having given home advantage up, our inability to score freely was exposed, and the rigidity that brought so much solidity became our undoing.
Oddly I think even though we played decent stuff in spells under Moyes. That defeat scarred him and coloured his attitude towards many a big game in the future.
A very brief but very Everton thing to do, break a hegemony then just slip away again like nothing had ever happened.
Everton my only footballing love, ‘mostly pulling the carpet from beneath me since forever!
18 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:47:54
19 Posted 13/11/2017 at 16:08:21
Of course he was misunderstood and misused prior to that Glorious season, but the talent was there for all to see. We just needed to stop booting it over his head, and to relieve him off defensive duties.
Arteta was more mobile that Gravesen and so Moyes wasted him on the wing, rather than playing him through the middle. He only got games in the middle after he came back from what I consider to be a career wrecking knee injury (in that he was never the same player again). I think he only played in the middle as he had lost that burst of acceleration that allowed him to play on the wing, and his quick feet that allowed him to twist and turn in tight spaces was also gone. His knee was clearly never the same again. He showed at Arsenal just how good a passer of the ball he was. Unfortunately, Moyes never let him put the two sides of his game together and show what he could do in the middle, in his prime.
As to who was better, Gravesen or Arteta, because of the above, I would say they were different players, and that Gravesen was the better central midfielder, but only because we only saw the post-injury Arteta play there.
Either way, two of our best Premier League Era players, and it was a joy to watch them both.
20 Posted 13/11/2017 at 16:48:56
I think the reason we never got as many points after Gravesen left, Steve, is because the small squad Everton used that season just ran out of puff? I remember going to Villa, thinking that I couldn't see where our next win was ever going to come from, and Osman, and Arteta combined brilliantly for us to win 3-1.
Have to agree with John, about Villarreal, and although Ferguson's goal should have stood, I didn't think we had enough quality, just when we needed it most. We had Villarreal penned in near the end, but the Spaniards were clever, and kept tucking in, so we had to keep giving the ball to Tony Hibbert out wide, and although he had the heart of a lion, he was also a very limited footballer, who was never really ever going to create anything that night?
That Man Utd game was one of my favorite matches under Moyes though, John, and although it was a scrap, it was United who ended up playing with nine men that night. The atmosphere was fantastic that night, and it is why I believe the next managerial appointment is so important, because we need a manager and a style of play that can really engage the crowd.
Goodison has been dead for way too long, but looked what happened against Watford, once the crowd got really involved.
21 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:13:25
If I remember correctly, the Collina disallowed Ferguson goal, would have been an equaliser, Everton were never ahead on aggregate at any time. Weeks later it was Dinamo Bucharest 5-1 Everton in the Uefa Cup. That's how good we were in the many Moyes years... we won nowt in 11 of them.
22 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:22:05
They were good days. And we have some fond memories. We hoped that we could build upon them to have some glory days, and as the foundations Moyes left behind crumble, who can blame us for looking back to a time when we rarely had spells like this (only the start to the season that followed finishing 4th).
23 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:25:18
24 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:34:54
Thats were if you put Steve & John Daleys posts together you get the quote from above “Tommy didnt even know what he was going to do”.
I always got caught up in his madness, I loved it, thought it was ‘very Everton. But the amount of times he took on ‘one more player after burrowing through a couple killed him and the team.
My memory was hed always lose it somewhere daft and expose the team to a counter attack, my rage was equal to my love from him. He clearly had ability, but no discipline, never calm but instinctual.
He could get me out of my seat but also easily get me to throw my toys into orbit.
Arteta never reached those extremes, and was calm, metronomic in his play. Sometimes too deliberate, the injury ruined him, thats fair for sure. More vital to Everton and did so for a prolonged time. Deffo the better player if not as emotionally impactful as Tommy.
His high point will always be the Fiorentina game, later than the seaon we are reminiscing about, but masterful that night.
25 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:43:06
Both would walk into the current team of largely anonymous individual's, but I would love to turn back the clock and watch the silky skills of 'Mikel' again.
Loved it when he ran at defence's and 'dropped his shoulder' and sent them totally the wrong way.
We certainly had the best years out of him prior to joining Arsenal. 'Where's the Arteta money Bill'?
Sorry couldn't resist that one.
26 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:07:06
Steve, apparently Bill ‘gifted' the Arteta money to Usmanov, who gifted it to Moshiri who bought 49.9% of Everton.
Did we sell Arteta by having to pay Arsenal for the pleasure?
Does Arteta actually own EFC by manipulating a Russian billionaire who puppet masters Moshiri?
Have we looked at this the wrong way around for years?
Mikel, where's the Arteta money!? A: In Riquelme's pension fund.
27 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:12:58
28 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:18:16
Despite this he did make some excellent signings but other were just a big bust. Timmie was as we all know was the signing of the decade in the Prem.
I am sure to that like all managers they had players who didn't see eye to eye and usually it is younger players who cannot take being left out when they feel they are better than others who are chosen.
Only Rooney will know whether he may have stayed under another manager and if the club were doing better at that time and I suppose that will be revealed when he writes his autobiography one day.
29 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:29:05
30 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:45:20
I think,this was definitely the best team Moyes had during his time at Everton, but I thought we fell short because Moyes was tactically short?
We might have won that cup that year if we had been a little bit braver or shown a little more nouse, but it was never to be. Glasgow Rangers knocked Fiorentina out on the way to the final, and I've always felt that it should have been us that year. Typical Everton really, so near but so far away!
33 Posted 13/11/2017 at 19:00:53
It wrankles with me a touch. Everton were a very good and confident side going into that tie. Better that Fiorentina for sure.
At 1-0 down in that game we did something unexpected to my mind under Moyes, we chased the tie believing the away goal would be the killer.
We exposed ourselves again, playing against the the grain and the way we usually played. 1-0 would have been fine, but again Moyes had little experience in knockout European footy.
As you say tactically short.
34 Posted 13/11/2017 at 19:04:58
As I've said before, not enough winners or players who actually detest and I mean detest losing. Cahill did and he's had a brilliant career. I just wish we could instill that belief and will to win in the squad we have now, though I actually think some of the kids may have it – I can only hope.
35 Posted 13/11/2017 at 19:39:10
When Deadly Dave left for Man Utd he admitted in public what a shithouse he was. "We feared for our lives coming to Old Trafford when I was Everton manager," he said. "Like taking a knife to a Gunfight." What a Tosser.
The only Miracle Moyes performed was lasting at this club for 11 years. He would probably still be here now shitting his pants if Fergie had not done an old pals act for him. Moyes was a total waste of space, a negative dour anti-football anti-personality type character. I was over joyed when Kill Joy left.
36 Posted 13/11/2017 at 20:00:40
Let's have it right, it can't be argued he never done a great job, but only if it's Bill Kenwright, doing the arguing!
37 Posted 13/11/2017 at 20:07:30
38 Posted 13/11/2017 at 20:37:52
39 Posted 13/11/2017 at 21:22:34
In an ideal world we would attract a top level coach but we are not in an ideal world. Do you seriously believe any Evertonian would want Allardyce here unless it was a necessity and short term?
Looks like I have upset another Deadly Dave Disciple. You would've probably welcomed Moyes back and clapped along like a sea-lion with Kenwright when he was unveiled... Let's just hope Unsworth keeps us out of the bottom 3 then mate.
40 Posted 13/11/2017 at 21:35:32
Those names you mention are not our only choices yet you have called for big Sam. You claim you don't really want him but you have put a lot of time and energy into trying to convince us he is the man for the job. I haven't called for either of the managers you mention. I called for Moyes or to take a chance on Unsworth but, having read some of the other posts from other contributors, I would go for Simione if there was half a chance of getting which there probably is because money talks and we now have money.
But yes you are right about one thing. I would have clapped if Moyes returned because now that he had gone, looking at the situation we were in, it shows what a fantastic job he did.
41 Posted 13/11/2017 at 22:14:47
Oh how we could do with Arteta & Cahill today. A playmaker & somebody who'll get on the end of crosses & corners.
42 Posted 13/11/2017 at 00:01:15
You're right, all those players were signed in the summer of 2005 but some only arrived after we went out to Villarreal e.g. Ferrari, Valente, Van der Meyde.
I think what Osman is getting at is that we only signed Davies prior to the Champions League qualifiers. He's still wrong because Neville had signed too but I'd forgive him for trying to forget that.
43 Posted 14/11/2017 at 00:10:49
44 Posted 13/11/2017 at 01:32:22
John #17, you made me smile with your recollection of Phil Dowd. My all-time favorite ref. Big smile, bit of a belly (when he trimmed down I thought it hurt his performance), last of the old-style refs who could give as good as he gave. Never covered his mouth when he did it, either. Fearless.
Now I know what book I want for Hanukkah!
45 Posted 14/11/2017 at 09:45:18
I remember given my ticket up for a game at Anfield because I was working. I later found out that the job had fallen through and the only ticket I could get was in their main stand down by the Evertonians.
I always knew what gobshites they were but I was shocked by the degree of their gobshitedness. They had played us off the park they were leading 1-0, they should have been out of site, but instead of watching the game and supporting their team, all around me were looking the other way at the Evertonians and giving them dogs abuse.
Fuck this "I want to see Everton do well" shite you hear them spout. This was toxic, proper hatred, the c**t next to me was the worst of the lot . . .Then about 3 minutes to go we got the dead ball situation they were all dreading, right in front of us.
All I could hear was panic, "Get hold of Cahill" . . "Don't let that fucker Cahill get near this" . .Somebody get hold of that little Ausie bastard".
Ball knocked in and despite the resolute determination of the red camp they could not shackle the tiger "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS GET THE FUCK IN" The blues ranks to our left went fucking mad
My cover was blown, but so was the cover of about a dozen other blues in that section who had all jumped as high as me. All that abuse, All that hatred. the relentless taunting . . They were getting it back big time. If they were hostile before hand they were fucking mental by now. The cunt next to me was screaming for us to be thrown out - deep joy and satisfaction.
It came as no surprise at all that after giving it all game, they were incapable of taking it back. Tough, like kids in a playground we delighted in taunting the fucking life out of them.
Tim Cahill could and did give us some wonderful moments. His goals at grounds like Mordor, Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford, The Etihad, proved he doffed the cap to nobody. What a pity his manager could`nt quite find that same self belief.
I get all Whitney Houston when I think of Tim Cahill, I will always love him
46 Posted 14/11/2017 at 09:51:56
I am shocked at your admission you would welcome David Moyes with open arms and clap like a sea lion if he arrived back here. Considering the treacherous way Deadly Dave disrespected the club and our fans when he left for Man Utd, I can't believe your statement. It's almost treason!!!
Let's forget about the clandestine meetings with the Man Utd board and SAF, let us focus on the snide prick Moyes trying to pinch our best players on the cheap once he landed at Old Trafford. Guns to knife-fight players being lured away to the bright lights by the Grim Reaper Moyes. What a snake-oil salesmen Moyes turned out to be.
How about EFC not receiving an penny in compensation from Man Utd because Moyes, prompted by SAF, did the dirty on us when he went for his illegal meetings with the OT board? How could you side with a traitor like Moyes after what he did?
Why would you want more KITAP1? Why would you like to endure more sucking up and cowering to the big teams coaches while being out thought in all big games?? Why would you want another 100 games without an away win at any of the elite clubs? Never once did we turn up at Anfield to try and beat them. No wonder Kenwright manipulates so many of us with mindsets like yours, mate. It's really frightening how low you would set the bar.
If you want the most recent updates on Moyes the man who almost ruined the biggest club in the world, just ask Sunderland fans who performed best in a relegation fight. Fat Sam or Deadly Dave... I think you will find Sunderland went down under Deadly Dave. Fat Sam kept them up from an almost impossible position.
47 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:01:36
48 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:18:46
Moyes has also always been in a higher league position than Niel Warnock as well but what does that prove?? In fact at least Warnock gets teams promoted.
What has Moyes ever achieved in a 20 years managerial career... Not a thing that's what. A blank CV is all Moyes has. All we can do is go like for like at Sunderland... Moyes losses badly.
49 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:31:29
You hate Moyes, and have never said a good word about him. Of course he was far from our greatest manager. But he did a very good job stabilising us and taking us back to repeatedly finish in the top 6, season after season, and established us as the best of the rest.
He laid some very solid foundations for Martinez to have a record breaking season. This did show that Moyes had been far too defensive, and that the team was capable of more than he got out of them, with just a few purchases. But Moyes was a far better manager than you will ever give him credit for.
50 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:37:58
I fucking give up. No more please. This bullshit is ridiculous now. I can't read any more.
51 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:50:57
Not a mess like the one we supposedly have now. We didn't have a team we had spent £200m to assemble. We had the likes of Ginola, Blomqvist, Gascoinge and numerous other players over 35 years old.
52 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:02:29
Everton have never been down in my lifetime. Why are you to say such things.
53 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:11:20
The year Moyes stayed up with the lowest points total and goals was not a season we were in any real danger of going down. We were midtable until the last few games when the teams that had actually fought relegation all jumped above us, and we dropped down to 17th. We were never actually in the relegation fight in a proper way. We had been 13th until he lost the last four games in a row. We were actually safe with two games to spare.
54 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:13:23
Also agree with @49. Moyes is a toe-rag for the way he left but I don't forget the good work he did. Keeping that awful team he inherited up and transforming them into a top 6 side was one of the greatest achievements in EPL history. Like him or not, that team was truly woeful and Moyes is twice the manager Big Sam will ever be.
55 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:14:44
Liverpool, were a good team then but they never beat Everton once in those three games over a fortnight, and that was one of the only times I was ever really proud of Everton, during Moyess reign at Everton.
I remember the replay at Goodison, and whilst I was watching I was thinking how brave we had been, simply because we never had a centre forward, and nobody with any real pace to run in behind and trouble Liverpool, that night.
The reason I thought we was brave was mainly because of “little Timmy Cahill”, he fought for every ball, both in the air, and on the ground, he never gave them an inch, and gave us the fight we needed to stay in the game.
Stay in the game we did and we even got a bit of luck against them for once when Gerard pulled up, and then Lucas was sent off, but Cahill, was the man for me because you could tell he loved the fight, and this really troubled the Liverpool players on that particular great night!
56 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:18:04
57 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:28:24
What is your argument here? You admit that under Moyes Everton survived and finished 4th from bottom with the lowest ever points and goals tally in the history of football. Lowest ever goals tally in Everton history but it doesn't count because we never went down. WTF... I'm speechless..
Doesn't all this this just prove Moyes was a poor manager at a big club that never gets relegated? I'm sure Moyes signed some absolute shite as well... Simon Davies, Kevin Killbane, Per Krøldrup being my favs along with re-signing Naysmith and Wier.
Yeah... brilliant manager was our Davey!
58 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:30:21
As for being a poor manager, Walter Smith was not a poor manager. He did not do well with Everton, but we all know his history in Scotland. Moyes took Everton up the table by around 10 places and kept them there. He did a good job. At times he did a very good job. A couple of seasons he did a very bad job. But mostly he did good, 9 times out of 11 seasons for me.
59 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:43:34
I can't remember one game where we ever battered anyone. It was all grim struggles to the death. I do remember going to Pompey one season around 2008-09 I think it was. We won 1-0 Osman fluked one. I remember driving back thinking, "What the fuck am I doing watching this twat's teams?" This was the game were Deadly unveiled his new ground-breaking master piece formation... the 4-6-0 line up.
It was light-years ahead of Unsworth doing it at Lyon. Fantastic it was... I was so proud to watch Everton shit themselves every time they took to the field. Big club or small club Davey knew how to raise a white flag and invite teams on.
The season Moyes left, I used to give my tickets away as I couldn't stomach it any more. Being dragged around IKEA and Travis on a Saturday afternoon by the missus was more enjoyable than watching us play. This was the Moyes I remember... the one who shat on us when he left..
Don't waste your time trying to convince me any different about Deadly Dave... I was right all along about Moyes and what a snivelling Git he was. He proved it when he went to Man Utd.
60 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:51:59
I would disagree that it was always terrible. Moyes always reset to a clean sheet after a bad run, no matter who was next. Playing bottom of the league? Doesn't matter lads, clean sheet is all that matters.
When we were going well though, he did loosen the reins and I think we played some tremendous football at times. Particularly Osman, Pienaar, and Arteta linking up. Yes it was never sustained, it was always flashes, and as soon as we had a bad result we reset and went for the clean sheet again.
A lot of your criticisms of Moyes are valid, Tony. They're just a bit over the top. He did the job we needed him to do, taking us back up the table and keeping us there. He really should have gone a bit sooner, not after 11 years and the way he did. Once we started paying him silly money in wages, that was too much for me, he never deserved that salary.
You can't write his tenure off as poor though. I'd say he did a good job and took as far as he could and we should be grateful for what he did. It is also right that he was never considered for the job this time around.
61 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:58:18
As soon as he signed for United then his allegiance and loyalties were to United. He never pinched any players, if anything we robbed United. He was the one who signed Fallaini for us and he did us a favour taking him to United because we used the money to buy Lukaku. And Felliani wanted to leave anyway we would never have got that kind of money had Moyes not come in for him. And with hindsight it might have been best if we had sold Baines at the time, he has been losing it ever since.
As for Sunderland, like you say it was an almost impossible task to keep Sunderland up, it was a small miracle and thats why Fat Sam got out as he knew he would not be able to repeat his achievements. Who ever took over Sunderland next was going down either way. Sunderland would not get 2 miracles back to back. But the season we finished 17 and then lost Rooney and Graveson half way through the season Moyes pulled off an even greater miracle by leading us to finish 4th and then help us to finish in the top 7 consistently for the best part of a decade with far less money than most of his rivals and competitors.
And as for almost ruining the greatest club in the wild, Van Gall spent another few hundred million and didn't do much better, mourinho came in and spent another shed load of money and hardly pulled up trees in his first season. The only thing close to treason were those pushing to get Moyes out, because if we go down this season they will have had a hand in it. And that includes you Tony as the chief Moyes basher at the time.
62 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:59:55
Yes, season 2003-04 under Moyes saw us finish in 17th place. We were NEVER, EVER in that season under threat of relegation. As Steve Ferns correctly points out, for most of the season we were mid-table. Following a 3-1 home win over Spurs, away draws to Leeds and Chelsea, with 4 games to go we were 13th on 39 points . and the team switched off.
Everton lost their 4 remaining games - H Blackburn 0-1 (finished 15th), away Wolves 1-2 (relegated, bottom of the table), H Bolton 1-2 (finished 8th) and A Man City 1-5 (which saw City jump above us on the final day of the season to finish 15th).
Certainly, as manager, Moyes must take some blame for such a fall away. I recall in interview after the City mauling he said this poor run had told him a lot about many players, who he needed to ship out and what was needed to improve the side.
And given that (as opening post recalls) Moyes did just that by finishing 4th next season (having finished 7th in his first full season the season before finishing 17th) only highlights how deeply prejudiced you are against Moyes, incapable as you are of acknowledging the very evident good things he did in his time at the club.
As I have consistently said in the wake of his departure to Manure, I do not want the man any where near the club or employed in any capacity ever again for the words and actions he directed towards Everton.
It is not a hypocrisy for me to state that, whilst simultaneously being capable of acknowledging we had some good times under Moyes and he did many good things.
I am sure I am not alone in noticing one particular quote in the opening post by Leon Osman on that 'CL - yer 'aving a larf' season:
"...we had David driving it home all the time, because David would turn around and say he wanted to finish first. And we would all be like, ‘Yeah, okay, good one.' But that was him. He brought not just a winning mentality, but a real desire to not take second best."
A counter to your oft repeated 'knife to a gun fight' example which I'm sure you'll readily dismiss as it shows Moyes as a determined winner which doesn't fit your image of him.
63 Posted 14/11/2017 at 12:12:56
For the record I have never said Everton are a big club but we are way bigger than Bolton mate. It's you and Steve who don't know this. You think we are the version of Everton Moyes presented to the world. That's not me.
I don't want Allardyce but out of the choices we were given due to the betting markets, I picked Sam Allardyce short-term over Moyes or Dyche or Unsworth... Best of a bad lot, in my opinion. You on the other hand think Ancelotti or that calibre will come here? Very delusional.
Moyes was the catalyst for Rooney leaving Everton and looking back, I don't blame Wayne for wanting away from Moyes..Rooney not good enough for a regular spot in a negative Moyes team but scores a hat-trick for Man Utd on his debut in the Champions League. According to Moyes, Wayne wasn't ready for the spotlight just yet... ha ha... Go figure that out.
Please stop making things up to further your arguments, Ian. I know some of you still have pics on your wall with Davey in his kilt with his top off but please, the man was a traitor. As bad as Smith and Martinez were they showed dignity, class and respect when the left us.. Davey shat all over his disciples...
64 Posted 14/11/2017 at 12:16:32
It also goes to the core of the manager talking to the press. Would you really be upset with a Moyes-esque manager dulling down expectations of the fans, to take the pressure off the players, if in the secrecy of the dressing room, he is in fact building them up and trying to give them the belief they can win. Is this not what Alex Ferguson always did so well?
65 Posted 14/11/2017 at 13:09:35
66 Posted 14/11/2017 at 13:58:50
Tony #57 That wasn't actually his claim and would be untrue, How about QPR 11/12 stayed up on 37 points, scoring less goals.
I will wholeheartedly agree with opinion of Moyes, thanks but never again . Big Sam should not even be allowed to wear a blue polo top never mind get anywhere near the home dugout
67 Posted 14/11/2017 at 14:52:10
It's one thing to reluctantly say you would have Fat Sam over the other managers but it's something else when you are fighting the cause and defending Sam to the hilt especially when he is so similar to Moyes. How can you criticise Moyes and his methods so much but defend Sam when he is far worse in every respect with on and off the pitch, for all Moyes faults he is not a corrupt fraudster. There is no consistency in your argument. If you are going to criticise Moyes and you don't want him fine but to praise Fat Sam in the same breath is a joke.
As for Rooney, he became the hottest prospect in world football under Moyes mentoring so he must have done something right. Rooney could have easily gone off the rails like so many other fantastic talents before him and after. Rooney now appreciates Moyes and the discipline that he tried to instil in him. Rooney is now burnt out and a shadow of his former self and only in his early 30s Moyes tried to manage him to prevent that from happening by using him sparingly. He would have been finished in his late 20s like Owen if you had your way.
68 Posted 14/11/2017 at 15:40:49
Football under Moyes was nowhere near as bad as it's made out, certainly not as ugly as it was under Koeman. Some of the play from Pienaar, Baines Osman and Arteta was as good as anything in the league... but he would always revert to type and shut up shop just as we looked like we were getting somewhere.
Moyes assembled a really good team on a shoe string, No two ways, but he let himself and us down badly, with his expectation management, his lack of real belief and his constant whinging about how hard done by he was. Burned his bridges forever with his behaviour when he thought he'd hit the big time.
I worry that Kenwright will have a big say (maybe even the final say) on who our next manager will be. He has succeeded in creating some of the richest failures in sport with his last three selections.
69 Posted 14/11/2017 at 15:51:22
Like I try and keep telling people I won't discuss or put forward names of managers the will definitely not give us the time of day..It is not being ambitious to call for Anchelotti or Tuchel or Guardiola it is being silly and deluded.
We will have to disagree on Moyes.He had poor man magement skills.Moyes even banned poor Howard Kendall from Finch Farm. Many players disliked Deadly and like I say he never got a result at any of the top clubs.. Something you can't say about Fat Sam.
Moyes along with BK dumbed you all down for 12 years.Its obvious the residule effects are still in some of you.
70 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:01:23
We used to fear for our lives..(Well the fans didn't)..It was like taking a Knife to a Gun fight !!!.. Deadly Daves cowardly words admitting shitting himself taking Everton to Old Trafford..
Don't dare try to spin it and put it on City..Do you think I would forget such Cowardly utterances and shitbag mentality from David Moyes.? No chance mate.Typical of the Davey Disciples prepared to alter history for him. Absolute Joke.
71 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:17:06
72 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:21:59
The quote from Moyes about going to Old Trafford included the pearl of wisdom, "When we came to United we were happy to just get out alive."
73 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:30:50
Give Moyes credit were due he made some brilliant signings for little money.Cahill,Coleman ,Arteta. The problem I have is the awfull parts of the Moyes era far outweigh the good. The football was mind numbing to say the least. The mindset was pity full and defeatist. The record against the then big 4
was diabolical.. To top it all off he did a deal with Utd behind the clubs back and shit all over his followers..
David Moyes got the shock of his life at Man Utd..No more cozy love ins with a chairman who massaged his ego.
No dumbed down supporters accepting mediocrity as the norm..Very high expectations
Exposed Moyes for what he is.A kick and rush Championship manager without a single accolade to his name in 20 years of management..
Example look what Eddie Howe has done with Bournemouth.
74 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:32:31
"... don't try and re write History for Darling Dave. Moyes was referring to us going to Old Trafford while he Moyes was manager...It was like taking a Knife to a Gun fight!!!
"Don't dare try to spin it and put it on City. Do you think I would forget such Cowardly utterances and shitbag mentality from David Moyes?"
No, you wouldn't forget Tony. It justifies in your mind another reason to bash Moyes with (and you DO understand Moyes left the left 4 1/2 seasons ago, don't you..?).
But you do make the wrong association as this link shows.
And BTW, that quote was one line in a 10 minute pre-match presser. I and many others understood what Moyes alluded to (the difference in spending power and quality of recruitment City were just starting to wield) and didn't take such deep umbrage at it as some (like yourself) took and continue to take.
A lot of hate and anger in you Tony that one line of many spoken 6 years ago still winds you up so.
75 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:36:48
I don't hate anyone or have any anger issues, mate. Far from it. I merely stating a fact to Darren Hind.
I gather you must also be one of the fans who were hoodwinked for years by Deadly Dave... That's okay we all make mistakes... It's just that, where Moyes is concerned, he never had me fooled for a second.
Chill, Jay. Peace and love to you, my brother Blue.
76 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:38:22
Was he better than Martinez or Koeman absolutely!
Was he better than his predecessors absolutely!
Was he better than the likes of Fat Sam absolutely!
Do we want a return to "defend for your life, boring attritional football absolutely not!!!
77 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:50:09
"The only thing close to treason were those pushing to get Moyes out, because if we go down this season they will have had a hand in it."
How can that be so, Ian? David Moyes didn't sign a new contract as he had been promised the Man Utd gig by his friend and hero, Sir Alex Ferguson. By all means defend the Ginger one if you must but please refrain from blaming the supporters for his leaving Everton – it was his choice and his choice alone.
78 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:51:36
Sorry to pull you up, mate, but wasn't Martinez first season the highest points total we ever had in the Premier League? Most goals also... I would say that is better than Moyes..Please don't say Moyes finished 4th it was a fluke. Lowest ever points total to achieve it. Then look what happened...
79 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:57:51
Good post. People forget that, towards the end of his tenure we played some excellent football but we didn't have the squad size to withstand injuries or allow rotation. You tend to play good stuff with Arteta, Pienaar, Coleman, Cahill, Osman, Baines etc. in your side.
Just as an aside,in the Times on Sunday they reported that, when Moyes left Sunderland, he chose to forgo a £3m severance payout because the club were going to make 70 employees redundant. Like him or loathe him, that is a very decent gesture, especially when you recall Martinez screwing us for £10m for being an abject failure. OK, he must be able to afford it but just the same
80 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:01:46
And you haven't answered the question, where you not delusional and was Moyes not ambitious enough when you thought he should be trying to win the league? Either way that has been proven to be a fallacy as Leon Osmen says Moyes wanted to win the league. And it's clear from many of the other quotes regarding how many players he was going to buy when he had us thinking we had no money that what he said in public and to the media and what he said and did behind closed doors are 2 different things.
As for Howard Kendall we do not know all of the facts. Bill Shankly was also banned from LFC training, it's not good but they felt it had to be done. I don't want to speak ill of the dead or an Everton legend but why was it that Gary Speed left Everton? The rumour is that Kendals alcoholism was having a detrimental effect on the team and they fell out. Again we don't have all the facts but one of the facts we do have is that it wasn't like Moyes was banning every Everton legend so maybe there was good reason. And so what if many players disliked Moyes many players didn't like Brian Clough or Alex ferguson, and were is the evidence that many players didn't like him? Either way he is not there to be liked he's there to get results and get the best out of his team. You are grasping at straws Tony, it is clear you have deep personal bias against Moyes. If you were more reasonable you might have a little more credibility but you are just further confirming and asserting the caricature that you have created for yourself
81 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:03:42
In Moyes's press conference when he took the Sunderland job what he said was a disgrace. Moyes raised the white flag and basically said we are already down... Disgrace full mate.
Just what the Makems wanted to hear... Deadly Dave at his Deadly worst!
82 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:07:21
If, like you and Moyes, we just accepted defeat as inevitable, what is the point in any of it? I'm still laughing that you agree with the guns and knives quote... Oh dear!
83 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:09:54
"I don't hate anyone or have any anger issues..."
Hmmm, I think there will be more than just me quietly amused by that line (and subsequent offerings of peace of love) given your posting history and rhetoric in virtually every offering you make on TW.
As ever, you try and paint things black or white when pompously stating: "I gather you must also be one of the fans who were hoodwinked for years by Deadly Dave."
Look back at what I wrote @ 62. It's called having a balanced view Tony. And no, that doesn't mean having a rabid anti-Moyes chip on each shoulder gives you balance or credibility.
I am able to acknowledge Moyes did many good things in his time with us. I don't wish him anywhere near the club in any employed capacity ever again, given his words and deeds on joining Manure.
Not big enough to acknowledge the link I offered @ 74 that rather undermines your claims about your elephantine memory re: the Moyes 'knife to a gunfight' quote.
Why am I not surprised?
Peace and love, fellow Brother Blue. Titter-titter.
84 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:13:37
85 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:17:41
If I was Moyes I would have been on my bike as well having read some of the vitriol about him. People like Tony helped to push Moyes out and now look where we are. Well done Tony, thanks for the pearls of wisdom, let's get fat Sam in to finish the job and put the final nail in the coffin.
86 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:17:41
If I was Moyes I would have been on my bike as well having read some of the vitriol about him. People like Tony helped to push Moyes out and now look where we are. Well done Tony, thanks for the pearls of wisdom, let's get fat Sam in to finish the job and put the final nail in the coffin.
87 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:18:40
What the fuck has Moyes ever won in football?? Don't forget he was at world biggest Club Man Utd and spent a ton of cash he must of won something.. Every manager does at Man Utd Answers on a post card please..PS.I will accept promotion as winning something..
88 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:23:53
89 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:28:23
Moyes won a league with Preston.
90 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:30:03
91 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:34:02
The devil is in the detail. My name is Jay WOOD (no 's' - so as not to confuse me with Jay WOODS (note the 's') who also posts on here.
And the detail of our exchange in this thread is clearly going way over you Zen-like head.
Typically, you're inventing and attributing a dialogue to me which simply has not taken place between us.
We are not and have not discussed your very simplistic claim that I (or others) are trying to convince you Moyes was a good manager. A completely different discussion (and with you, a totally futile exercise any way).
I have simply corrected a series of errors and incorrect claims you have made in this thread. I could add another one. There is no evidence that I am aware that Moyes 'banned' Howard Kendall from visiting Finch Farm as you claim. The story on that front is that Moyes simply never invited HK to visit, unlike Martinez who graciously did.
Not as 'tabloid shocking' as your claim though, is it Tony?
92 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:35:52
93 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:06
The problem with Moyes is that he didn't have the mentality to bring us success and he hit his ceiling with the FA cup final appearance and 5th place finish in 2009.
As others have mentioned, 2007-08 was our best chance and with a fully fit and firing Yak we should have made top 4 that season and won a trophy.
One issue we had was Cahill being injured for the most of the season. His scoring rate that term when playing was fantastic.
Another issue was typical Moyes. He signed Baines and wouldn't play him, preferring an out of position Lescott at left back. He signed Jags and tried for the first half of the season to play him as a defensive midfielder. It was only when forced into making the necessary changes that he stumbled on Baines Jags and Lescott in the same defence that made all 3 England internationals and earned Lescott a big money move.
The game away to Fiorentina was a microcosm of all Moyes failings. The tie was over on that evening after a truly woeful display by us. We looked a million miles from a team that wanted a result that night. Sure we came close in the second leg to pulling it back together but it's easier to motivate an underdog, isn't it?
Ultimately he left us at the correct time if not a season or 2 too late. It's been the failing of the board that they have not found a successor who could improve us from where Moyes left us, especially given improved finance.
Right now I could only dream of a midfield with the skill and creativity of Arteta, Pienaar and Osman.
94 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:30
He inherited an ageing squad of journeymen. He turned us into a good solid team. He was a bit too defensive at times for my liking - especially away against the big teams. But I felt we had the best defence in the league when we had a back 5 of Howard, Coleman, Jags, Lescott and Baines.
When the Yak was at his best, we played some lovey stuff. We had Baines and Pienaar down the left, and the likes of Osman, Cahill and Arteta linked up really well with Pienaar and the Yak.
We were just missing some of the final ingredients - mainly a couple of strikers and a right winger. I have my doubts as to whether we would have ever won anything with Moyes at the helm. But no-one can say he did a bad job at Everton - he just didnt win anything...
95 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:37
It was a throw away remark, but seeing as you have been such a know all about it and the fact that you always seem to be wrong, I decided to do some research... and guess what? Go ahead... Guess what: You (and John G Davies) are wrong, yet again Just Google it
I don't know why I bothered checking, One of you was still pleading for more time for Koeman right up to when he was told to clear his desk and the other has steadfastly campaigned to get "fireman Sam" in – Something you backtracked on as soon as you realised he wasn't coming
The "knife to a gunfight" quote was said about Manchester City. You are the one who is rewriting history, lad.
Oh and don't "darling Dave" me. I campaigned harder than you to get rid of him, but I wont be denying credit to Baines, Pienaar, Osman and Arteta for the football you want to pretend they didn't play.
96 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:43
How.many of those laughing at me were still laughing when Moyes stabbed you all in the back with his Knife. No pun intended..You accept the mentality of that loser .I wont ever..Guns to a knife fight ha ha you've made my day mate.
97 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:46:53
98 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:51:16
Some of them didn't even have a knife in the gunfight.
99 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:53:59
I didn't see Moyes teams as negative for the most part I saw them as pragmatic and effective given the poor talent at our disposal in the early seasons but that improved season after season. Mourinho is every bit as negative so what? but he has far better players and far more resources. But il tell you where we would have been had Moyes had the Koemen money or even the Martinez money we would be in a silmilar position to Spurs. And il also tell you about Lukaku, he only came to Everton because he was convinced by his national team mate Mirallas who Moyes signed so I think Lukaku would have come who ever was the manager. Another myth and fallacy spread by people like Tony that Moyes ruined strikers. We never had any money to buy a decent striker. You need 30+ million to get a decent striker or be lucky to bring one through the academy like a Rooney or a Kane. I don't remember Moyes ruining Rooney I remember Rooney becoming the best prospect in the world under Moyes and then recaptured his form again when Moyes was manager at Utd. And I don't remember many players leaving Moyes or Everton to go into bigger and better things.
Tony you don't speak for me or every evertonian. Moyes never stabbed me in the back, we or should I say people like you stabbed him in the back
100 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:54:27
Are you saying Moyes didn't make the statement I posted?
101 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:56:19
102 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:01:59
It was crucial when you came on all knowledgeable telling me I was re-writing history saying it was Man City... now your ignorance has been exposed again... it doesn't matter ?
Moyes's team had three straight victories at the Etihad. Even somebody who puts his fingers in his ears and says "La La La" as often you can't deny that.
You want to deny that Pienaar, Baines, Arteta and Osman played some fantastic football, that's up to you... but thousands of Evertonians saw it and no amount of nonsense you spout will alter history.
Perhaps they weren't booting it far enough for your liking ?
103 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:06:08
104 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:08:33
I would of taken Howard Wilkinson or Steve McClaren over Koeman.When Unsworth started fucking up I shouted get Fireman Sam in now before it to late..It satire,it's sarcasm it's desperation call it what you like because Who I want s managerirellavent .
If a few more results go the wrong way for Unsworth Big Sam might be all we have left so be careful with your words mate..Fat Sam might be the guy who gives you PL survival.
105 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:13:25
Tony, the fact that Moyes took Sunderland down is beyond question. He had taken over a shite team with little money, allegedly, but my point is that Moyes refused the £3m that he was entitled to and for the most admirable of reasons. Continue to don your blinkers and slag him off until the Grim Reaper appears at YOUR bedside (or pitchside) but try to accept for once that some aspects of the man's character may be honourable.
106 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:13:34
Bobby turned out useless but give him his due he believed we could beat anyone .
107 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:15:34
And there are many more examples.
He had no real belief in himself; and in the end his players didn't believe in themselves either.
108 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:17:38
109 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:19:36
He kept us in the top six over 10 years with breadcrumbs to spend, won a number of manager of the year titles and is still more successful than Mourhino and Van Gaal over the number of games he managed United till they sacked him and that was despite the poisoned Chalice that SAF left his successor..
110 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:29:47
111 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:31:46
112 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:37:06
Look at the numbers. Look how badly we slid after winning the league. Look how much we were in the wilderness, that one brief 6th under Royle. Then a sustained period of consecutive top 8 finishes. And then inconsistency that followed. Moyes clearly did a good job, you can argue about the quality of the football and how exciting it all was, but the stability and the results are beyond question. I'm not saying Moyes was great, he wasn't. But I will not have it that he was poor, as these are not the results of a poor manager.
113 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:38:16
You can't say what a piece of trash Moyes is while calling for Fat Sam to be our savior. All your arguments against Moyes easily apply to Sam, except Sam has actually achieved even less than Moyes.
Moyes was sacked at United, correct. But he did not spend loads of cash. That actually happened after he was gone by the following managers. And Moyes was actually getting the same amount of points as his successors.
Moyes didn't win away from home agains the "Top 4" at the time, but he did repeatedly stick it to City. He did have us in Europe multiple times, Champions League once. The club itself at that time was financially a joke, no money being spent at all. He took players and formed a team that was competitive, far more competitive than they had been in the years before his arrival.
Allardyce meanwhile was known for some of the worst football to grace England while at Bolton. Since then he hasn't really done much else. And he was rightfully sacked as England manager. He should have never been given that job to begin with.
114 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:47:16
I have no doubts you are all great Evertonians and have your own beliefs and club favourites. What really astounds me is the amount of fans still prepared to defend Deathly Dave despite the way he schemed and plotted with Utd for his dream job. I didn't like Moyes prior to his skullduggry but once it came out I felt vindicated for my years of slamming him.
Not only did Moyes collude with SAF to gain a compensation free move to Old Trafford he then decided to take the piss again by offering silly money for our best players. I think these actions should of been the end of anymore good will shown to Deadly Dave but it appears not.Some if you out there would take him back which fills me with dread..Even now when I listen to Moyes and his dour negative tone it makes me shudder. David Moyes will take West Ham to the brink of relegation if not down..Who is against me in this shout??
115 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:50:49
116 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:52:20
Could and should have told SAF to do things the right way instead of acting like his lap dog.
Won't contest he did well at times with little to spend but the manner in which he engineered his departure was shocking IMO.
117 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:52:58
As you are too, Tony, no doubt. But I don't know anybody saying Moyes will do the job at WHU; and nobody is denying his behaviour in ditching us for Man Utd - they are distractions from the main question here, his achievements at Everton. Steve #112 provides good stats.
118 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:54:11
119 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:57:31
120 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:00:21
If you saying Allardyce might be our last and only hope is not saying he would be our savior, I cant help you. Last and only hope is the same thing. Youve been going on for weeks now saying that Allardyce is the man we should turn to in order to avoid relegation. You tell everyone that to hope for anything better is being unrealistic. Maybe you should join Shearer in that football/dementia research.
121 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:04:07
I think points have been made. We should all leave it there. No opinions will be changed. Moyes is consigned to history for Everton. Let's look forward to the future. If we get a new manager in we can rally around, then great. If it's unsworth and youth development, then we will all be fully behind the kids. Tony included.
We're all blues here, and there's no point falling out over history.
122 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:08:00
If Unsworth continues like he has been doing, carrying on were Koeman left off, and we end up in the shite, no-one but Allardyce will come here. That's if we are lucky and haven't already pissed him off.
Do I want this scenario? Of course not. Is it possible? Most definitely... What's hard to understand there because, knowing Everton, it will most likely happen.
123 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:12:48
124 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:36:58
The fact that you thought Moyes should have been doing better with the crap at his disposal yet you think this top 7 side will probably get relegated without big sams help just shows the lack of logic in your argument and the inconsistency. If Moyes could finish 4th with the garbage he had at the time imagine what he could do with the players we have now and the money and the youth coming through. And don't give me that other myth that he didn't give youth a chance.
125 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:47:17
If you can't win stuff at Old Trafford, you might as well give in. This was before Man City broke out as well.
126 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:53:45
That said, Ferguson bailed on Utd at just the right time. That Champions were an old side and in need of a lot of work and it was always going to be a transitional phase. Dropping to 7th is unacceptable though. Woodward was a novice and cocked up the transfers, which didn't help Moyes, and that was another big factor.
127 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:58:38
128 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:07:14
129 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:12:38
130 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:17:43
Sociedad was a vanity appointment. He thought he could do what he did at Everton without learning the language, big mistake. It was doomed to fail from day one.
Sunderland was a disaster. The board lied to him. They wanted him to take the job, they made him promises about money and they didn't deliver. But he contributed to his own downfall with his comments that basically said they were down before a ball was kicked.
He doesn't seem to learn his lesson either, telling West Ham he'll be off to better things in 7 months.
Moyes at Everton worked the media well. His people's club comments were very astute and in tune with the fans. Now, he seems out of touch.
131 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:39:44
132 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:47:48
134 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:09:00
Just to put some perspective in this anti- Moyes tirade of yours, in their history Moyes has the third best win ratio/ percentage after Ferguson, 59.67%, Mourinho, which has risen to 61.73% (and they are shite to watch) and then Moyes at 52.94%, despite spending pennies compared to the other two.
I have no time whatsoever for Moyes following his behaviour after he left but let's keep to some accurate facts, eh?
135 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:20:39
"Moyes was selected by Sir Alex Ferguson to take on the daunting challenge of replacing him at Old Trafford in May 2013.
Moyes won the Community Shield at Wembley in August - becoming the first Manchester United manager ever to win a trophy in his first season in charge, but left the club after just ten months."
("Oh aye. Ah was oan feyer oan ma first day. They ungrateful bastards forget awl aboot that. Awnly United gadgie tae grab ay tin pot in his first game and they try to paint me as some sortay failure? Get tae fuck. Talk aboot rewriting history.")
136 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:27:50
All this talk about dour Davey just makes me appreciate good positive attacking football that little bit more, and I have to say the Danes have been a credit to their past tonight. They could have sat on the lead but they knew they were better on the ball than the Irish and they have just gone and totally dismantled them.
Moyes was a flat-track bully, pure and simple. He wasted the Lescott money when he had a good team and, although I have to agree that we played some good football under him at times, he was never a real winner... no fucking way was David Moyes a winner. All his best victories came at Goodison Park when his team had the backing of Everton's great support.
137 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:34:00
138 Posted 14/11/2017 at 23:29:47
139 Posted 15/11/2017 at 07:35:41
Seriously, as interesting as some of the insight here is, this is about a team, our team, finishing 4th. We didn't even get into the Champion's League, just a qualifying match, which of course we lost.
Really looking forward to the follow up from Tony Hibbert 'My 100 Best Throw-Ins.'
140 Posted 15/11/2017 at 11:49:31
No it's not a book about one season it's the story of Everton FC told by all those involved in that rich history.
Re-read the opening paragraphs again Jamie and I wouldn't worry too much about what our neighbours think, they are constantly on Blue Watch so they will always get wind of anything that is or has happened at Everton FC.
As Everton enter their 140th year, Faith Of Our Families: Everton: An Oral History tells the story of the club through the voices of the people who made the institution one of the most revered in world football.
141 Posted 15/11/2017 at 11:50:14
142 Posted 15/11/2017 at 15:51:04
143 Posted 15/11/2017 at 17:00:51
144 Posted 19/11/2017 at 16:03:42
I was fed up with him long before his eleven years were up.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.