Silva' honeymoon ends amid defensive collapse at Goodison

I say I feel for him because he's come in to a complete shambles of a mess at this club now and, apart from Martinez first season, there hasn't been one ounce of stability at this club since the David Moyes era.

The losers' mentality just seems to run rife at the club (it did even when Moyes was here, just seemed like more better organised failure then).

No matter how much money we spend and it's been the same since summer 2016, nothing ever gets learned, even the smallest progress doesn't seem to develop, it's just a sideways step followed by a backwards step and maybe another sideways one from there.

We are pinning our hopes so much on the returning Richarlison, Gomes, Mina and Bernard and we can only hope and pray that these lads are bloody good and if they can stay fit long enough to actually make a difference before already we are in another bleak midwinter writing off another season.

What's the ulterior motive????

We'll score goals with Richarlison in the team but I fear we're going to ship them the other end regularly. That's 9 goals now in 5 league game and not a clean sheet to be seen. When you look at the level of the opposition played, it's getting a bit worrying.

Mina should help, especially as he's 6ft-5in! But he's also new to the league so don't expect too much. He'll need a few months to get used to his surroundings.

It was a truly poor result today and I'm just hoping we get at least one win from the Fulham and Palace home games coming up. I have no expectations this season and can see us struggling to make top half, never mind top 7. We have so many truly average players in the side who are not decent on the ball – it's amazing how we signed them all.

We shipped out a ton of dross in the summer but at least another 4-5 need to go in January or next summer. This season is simply about bedding in the new players, getting enough points to be clear of the drop zone and focusing on signing the right players in January and next summer.

Hopefully we'll have a decent cup run or two ‘cos nothing special is going to happen in the Premier League.

I'm sure the RS can't wait to force-feed Pickford humble pie after that gaff – stupid prick.

Martinez was often criticised for setting his team up to play with style rather than substance. Today we had neither. We looked disjointed with the ball, disorganised without it and bereft of confidence. It is however far too early to write off this season's manager.

The return of Richarlison will make a difference in attack and we can but hope the other new signings establish themselves during the coming weeks. In the meantime, I hope the manager deals with some fundamental issues on the training pitch, notably how to make the team difficult to play against, difficult to score against and difficult to beat. Today, we were a soft touch.

His ability, indeed willingness, to deal with the basics of defensive play will determine how successful he, and we, will be this season. The evidence so far is less than encouraging but he must be given time.

Until our defenders toughen up (Holgate needs to get on some weights and stop reading the Ashley Williams book on bad distribution) and learn how to defend then we are always up against it.

Regardless of how patient people want to be with players, it has taken me half-an-hour to realise Bernard is a far superior technically gifted footballer than say Calvert-Lewin or Niasse. It doesn't take two years to spot a good footballer; you either can trap a ball or you cannot.

We should not be relying on Tosun, Niasse and Calvert-Lewin as our hopes for goals if Richarlison is not there, these players are not good enough and it beggars belief with all that money why they are still getting wheeled out.

Even though I suspect none of the trio of Gylfi, Gana and Morgan will get into the starting line-up should Gomes, McCarthy and Baningime recover the best of their form and fitness (okay, Gana may still deserve a spot if work rate and disruption of opposition possession are the sole requirements), I don't think anybody expected our midfield to be as ineffectual as it was today and the manager did at least try to alter that with an early substitution.

Ha!!...

Still before 9am Sunday here, just sitting down to my breakfast and I get up the result to see this DISASTER!!!

WTF???

ps: The Watford board and fans must be laughing their gleeful bollocks off!!!!!!!

Isn't that what our board have been doing up the fans' arses for way too long now???

So.. who's the next managerial target who's gonna – somehow – turn it all around for us???

New stadium? Full of what?.. a Subbuteo flick-to-kick Blues 'dream-team'???

(Sorry.. just every time I start to get hopeful... Yeah, I know, we're all there, too!!!)

This club will rise again but it will NOT be with Marco Silva.

Everton have zero chance of beating Arsenal away – absolutely zero we all know it and some of us will say it.

I am gobsmacked at how fucking shit we are and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

I challenge anyone out there to tell me that I am wrong and explain in detail why I am wrong...?

I feel for you Lee not even being able to watch the game, I live in Indonesia and have been for 15 years.

You would not have wanted to watch the game as it was pathetic to watch and you would have had no sleep at all.

I looked forward to that game all fucking day and I was horrified at how shit we are.

We are actually worse than when Koeman was here and that is the most alarming thing of all.

Arsenal will absolutely batter us and we CANNOT beat them.
What the fuck can we do?

So I tune into TW as usual and read how shite we were against the bottom side... Will my dream come true now? That's a scary thought, but nothing surprises me with this club...

Will our very expensive Number 10 still disappear except to take corners and hit free kicks into a wall? Will we persist in using a static and cumbersome central striker who has no support from midfield and whose two wide strikers persist in staying wide?

The wide strikers should move inside to support the central striker when the attack comes from the opposite wing. Ours don't. Walcott has pace and good feet, but from his days as wunderkind at Southampton, through his Arsenal and England career, he has never shown a sign of a football brain of the nous that a top player has instinctively.

We are a tactical mess we have a system that doesn't work and players incapable of making the system work. The supporters have a blind faith that Richarlison et alia will fix everything, they won't. He had a great start at Watford and then disappeared for 80% of the season.

We've gone out on a limb to sign a manager, risking even a points deduction, whose record with Hull City was relegation and who, at Watford, lost the dressing-room and was sacked.

As Dick Fearon asks — What do they do at Finch Park?

When the line-up was announced I wondered where the creativity was in the midfield and later when it was said that Schneiderlin's father had passed on during the week I had to wonder which idiot decided he would be in the right frame of mind to play football.

Even when he was substituted it seemed not to be through physical injury and at two minutes to half time seemed a very strange time to let the opposition know where you see your own weakness.

Otherwise, the radio commentator gave the opinion that Everton had enough chances to at least come out with the draw, was that so?

Instead we have seen a series of collapses possibly even worse than in previous recent seasons where won games were thrown away as soon as the opposition worked out that a) the defence was playing to a plan more suited to curling or chess than football, b), the midfield was without any talent whatsoever, and c) the attack consisted of Richarlison.

It took Allardyce's brain-dead thug tactics to get this team to survive last year, and I was very happy when he left, but there is a very deep-seated problem at this club which may get price terminal.

The difference between us and our neighbours is immense, they buy outstanding players at reasonable prices and then get them to play attractive football as a team, we buy mediocre (if that good) players at vast prices, and then get them to play as isolated individuals. No team which has spent the sums we have should have players out there of the low quality of Gueye, Schneiderlin, Tosun, Sigurdsson, and the homegrown Holgate, Calvert-Lewin, even Davies, seen to have, at best, not improved over their days under Unsworth and mostly got worse.cast

Moshiri has bought what he thought was a decent plot of land for redevelopment, but has found that it has been a secret dumping ground for asbestos, nuclear waste, and old chemical warfare shells for the last 30 years.

I think it will take the likes of Alex Ferguson, or Allardyce with a long-term plan and an actual footballing brain to turn the club round. I have doubts that it is even possible.

Steve: Did you say Silva likes to play the pressing game? Yesterday, not one of them could press a shirt never mind the ball.

Oh, and why was the poor lad Schneiderlin allowed to play football when his dad had just died? My mind boggles at the management incompetence.

I've said it before on various threads and the live forum, why do we employ managers that have been sacked for failing and expect something different?

Would any of us be happy to work with a colleague who had been sacked from their previous job for incompetence?

Shite performance true, but the real cost to us came from individuals making errors.

I am willing to give Silva at least 10 games before really judging. He has yet to put out a full first choice 11 yet.

Gana is a headless chicken and has no positional discipline whatsoever. He has no concept of danger and I lost count the amount of times he just chased the ball like a kid at Under-10 level.

Digne and Kenny are both poor positionally as full backs. Both have great delivery when advanced though. In the case of Digne I would play him further up the pitch. Kenny I think isn't at premiership level.

Calvert-Lewin is a centre-forward, and unless u play him there u may as well have him on the bench.

Tosun is not the answer for us and I would either play Calvert-Lewin or Richarlison as our central striker. Tosun's movement is poor, he has poor pace, and he can't link the play.

At the moment we are so easy to beat, not just crosses but also to play through. Other teams will be licking their lips. Having two defensive midfielders who don't seem to add much means we lack creativity for no real defensive advantage.

The Schneiderlin - Gueye partnership is a major problem. Gueye can tackle all day long but simply can't pass a ball. The only positive point was that Bernard looks classy. And if Calvert-Lewin is going to play put him in the middle and give him a run of games there, pointless having him out on the wing.

Si (#8) Defending should start at the front of the team and continue through the midfield and defence and that includes the keeper. It requires players to work as a unit, hold their positions, look after the ball, spot danger and minimise risks.

Yesterday, we were all over the place positionally, looked as though some of the players had only just met each other, careless in possession, unaware of the threat posed by the opposition and cavalier in our approach to the game. The second goal summed up our malaise; a careless kick by Pickford and out-of-position defenders permitting Yarmolenko the time to autograph the ball before rifling it into the net.

I think it's obvious that the spine of this team is weak. We don't have a leader at centre-back, the best leader at centre mid is a 20-year-old and we have a static striker.

Saying this though, do we deserve any better?

We slated Stones because he was young and made mistakes – he left.

We slated Lukaku because all he did was score – he left.

We slated Barkley because he wasn't Gerrard – he left.

We slate anyone who tries something and loses the ball, to the point where they play safe passes so they don't hear the familiar chorus of boos.

We have to take a big responsibility as fans for turning so short-termist and demanding instant success. There's even people now saying that Silva should go.

Honestly, I used to slate some rival fans thinking that we had a realistic, knowledgeable fan base. Nowadays we're as bad, if not worse, than the rest.

Keep on booing, keep on slating players constantly, keep on demanding managerial changes, keep on demanding massive overhauls of players every year, keep on demeaning every youngster with an ounce of potential because he isn't instantly perfect, keep on demanding expensive imports.

It's worked so far, hasn't it?

We are usually set-up with two holding midfielders, much to the annoyance of many on here. However, successive managers have realised that it is the only way to protect our centre-backs.

Previously we had the disaster of Williams who couldn't be trusted, Jagielka on the wane, Keane out of confidence, and now we see a new loanee, Zouma with green Holgate who lacks muscle. If Mina had been there, he too would have come unstuck with the early ball over the top. We need Jags back in to organise them .

At Arsenal, we will be sitting deeper so perhaps we can do a "West Ham" and hit them on the break and beat our bogey side!

I went the game yesterday and I observed a team that just did not try hard enough. I watched Walcott, Tosun, and Calvert-Lewin and I can't remember a single time that they chased back. I watched Pickford shouting at players for not breaking out quickly from a corner, when he knows full well we never leave any players forward at corners.

The manager is to blame for playing Schneiderlin. That lad had just lost his father where else was his head and emotions going to be. Bernard should have started and Walcott should have been taken off at half-time for Lookman.

We will get better – but not by much this season.

Silva has been found out already and will be gone by Xmas. Trouble is, no-one will come to our rescue this time after the way our club and many fans treated the last manager who did.

I hope you're all happy – it could have been a good season if we had hung onto Allardyce and built on what he did last season. Instead, we're in the usual mess and staring into the Championship abyss. Mind you, at least you will all see plenty of goals and end-to-end football as we lose or draw every week.

I really don't understand the constant booing from fans and as you said it will affect the players. Get behind the team even if we lose a game. I will judge Marco Silva after next Summers transfer window and we finally get rid of the last remaining deadwood.

People on here saying Niasse should never play again, well he has to because we have no other strikers available and no one wants to buy him on his wages, not Marco Silva's fault. As for getting another quality striker, who wants to come to Everton at the moment?

I feel sorry for Silva because already he is being judged. Give the man a break! He hasn't been able to even select his first choice back four yet.

Yes, there are worrying signs, to say the least, but come on, let's give him a chance to get it right.

If you go to all the trouble of "tapping up" or illegally approaching a manager (as it should be called), then surely pick one with a proven track record. Not one who, in his two previous Premier League appointments, got one team relegated and in the other lost the dressing room and got sacked.

If Silva is, as we have been led to believe, Moshiri's own choice, then I would seriously question his judgement. Silva's tactical acumen seems limited, (See "Tapping Up!", published on here yesterday), his man-management in picking Schneiderlin, when his father has just died, seems bizarre and his motivational skills limited as the players took 30 minutes to begin to play.

Yes, we should improve when Richarlison (if he plays well for more than half a season), Gomes, Mina and Bernard are all firing and fit, but so we should for the money spent.

Mina's face yesterday when the cameras focussed on him had that look of "What have I let myself in for?"

Silva needs time, but the early signs are depressingly worrying.

I think he is as poor as a lot of fans think he is, but centre midfield is the biggest failing at the club and will not improve until McCarthy proves his fitness or we sign a solid midfielder in January.

I had my doubts about hiring Silva, but some of the comments here are verging on ludicrous. Apparently his "motivational skills are limited ' when every new player we signed this summer cited talking to him as the reason they signed.

I can understand why fans are irate and frustrated, it seems to be a never-ending line of Managers, and players, who seem to make the same mistakes, and produce lacklustre, dispassionate performances.

There doesn't appear to be much team spirit either; what is happening behind the scenes is a mystery to me. While I agree, some of the booing may lead to players leaving, equally the fans have little or no say in the Transfer of incoming players.

I am beginning to think Marco Silva (admittedly not my preference) is out of his depth, and while our attacking has marginally improved, our defending has alarmingly got worse, if that's possible.

Our midfield should be Schneiderlin - Davies - Gomes or Dowell and our attack Bernard - Richarilson - Walcott.

Hopefully Mina is fit asap.

Quite rightly, individual players are getting slated but Silva must also be questioned. So far this season his obstinacy, game management, selection, substitutions and tactics all leave a lot to be desired.

No manager is perfect but we are all seeing the same issues every game and there appears no change. The squad are not good enough but some things do not need massive changes just tweaks here and there.

A great early fixture list for us to get points and confidence has been completely wasted.

We are still many players short of our strongest team, and I'd go for this line-up on Sunday:

Pickford GK
Kenny RB
Digne LB
Keane CB (Another week's training and hopefully he's given the all-clear)
Mina CB (If he's fit, he starts; we need his strength & height if nothing else)
Gana CM
Schneiderlin CM
Sigurdsson AM
Bernard LW
Walcott RW
Richarlison CF

Subs:
Stekelenburg
Tosun
Baines
Calvert-Lewin
Davies
Hornby
Zouma

I'd send Lookman to the U23s and ensure he's sold in January. His attitude stinks. He doesn't deserve to play for Everton – get rid ASAP.

And Niasse, for all his effort, and big 'chewing gum' smiles, is basically just shite, and needs U23 football and goals to get his touch back.

Even when we had poor sides and believe me I have watched some poor Everton teams over the years but even then the fans got behind the team. Were now its very much fans sitting back and saying "Come on, let's see what you have got." And if, like yesterday, it wasn't great, then silence descends over Goodison. I think I have seen more atmosphere at Central League (reserves) fixtures at Goodison.

I would love to hear why our fans have become so quiet at Goodison, yet the same fans away are brilliant. So where playing at Goodison was an advantage, I now think it has completely changed and it's become a harder place for our players to play.

There endeth the good news.

The bad news = we haven't got a centre-forward worthy of the name. Our midfield has the strength of a paper bag with no synergy whatsoever. The spine of our team is... well, spineless.

Arnautovic is the sort of player we need. A real bully who wants to win. Who have we in our squad that even comes close to his attitude?

We are the nice guys of football and it shows.

I just hope Moshiri is ready to empty his wallet in January; otherwise, it'll be Sam time before we know it.

We will have a strong squad if we can get the injured players on the park, strong but not quite good enough to challenge for a top six spot.
While I conced that managers differ in ability, players quality is way more important than the manager for me, imagine two or three of the top teams stars in our team, our results would improve a bungle straight away.
Until we somehow get a top six quality side together we will almost always be a nearly side looking up.

This squad is good enough to be 7th or 8th if their given time to get it all together though, we need to be a bit more patient again. I'll give it till Christmas; if results are still poor by then, maybe then we should worry.

Roll on January – and please, no more banging the drum for McCarthy. Unless we hire a proper fitnes specialist, he can't be relied upon in the slightest.

But it's not the end of our season... a long way to go, and there are reasons for optimism.

Let's not drag the team down with so much collective negativity.

I'm worried now. We have some top teams coming up starting with the Arsenal; we could easily be in the bottom 4 by Christmas if things don't improve.

He doesn't want the ball back to goal. He can't do that. He can't win headers and have a big centre-half getting digs in in his back. He needs to play as he does, left forward, almost central and off a striker who does all the unglamorous stuff.

I think Calvert-Lewin deserves a go, despite how shite he was yesterday, he's bigger and faster than Tosun. But then again Tosun and Richarlison already have a rapport and a understanding.

You can't call for square pegs in square holes and then put Richarlison in a position that's not his best. He played there for Brazil in a game against weak opposition where he got the ball to feet. Not where he needs to win headers and be big and strong.

Theres no gimmies in the Premier League; I suspected that the West Ham game could go either way.

I think what some posters are suggesting is playing him as a false No 9.

We will continue to be a nice "after you, sir" type of team while the club captain is so timid and couldn't wait to shake and greet Carragher by the hand before a derby. His words, not mine.

That said, it's a tad reactionary from some to compile lists of our squad who they claim are not fit for Sunday League football, let alone the Championship, or start calling for the manager's head already, as some did in the wake of yesterday's game.

In the two away games to date, the team and individuals coped admirably withto playing more than half the game with 10 men. There was no little craft, bags of resilience and plenty to be positive about, in spite of dropping four points.

We were largely dominant in the home win to Southampton. Turgid and lacking in guile to find a way through and around Huddersfield's packed defence. Mostly woeful and abject yesterday against Der Hammers.

But even yesterday, it wasn't all forlorn. There were good moments by players heavily castigated by some.

Theo Walcott showed great trickery 1-2 times in tight situations to open things up in behind the West Ham defence.

Calvert-Lewin had a storming run from the half way line, deep into the West Ham penalty and - with 4 men around him - still managed to get the ball to Tosun who blazed over.

Gana did find our own players with some enterprising passing.

Kenny linked up well with Walcott and put in some blinding crosses.

Digne showed similar on the opposite flank.

Bernard showed teasing glimpses of what he might bring to the table. Even against big grocks, he left one for dead to put in a cross and drew fouls because he shields the ball so well.

Am I papering over the cracks and trying to promote the idea that these wee snippets are enough to have us competing and winning games? Most certainly not. For the most part, we were abject yesterday, and for that, I have to point the finger primarily at the manager.

I don't buy the excuse 'he hasn't been able to play his preferred XI yet.' It doesn't count a jot for me. Player injuries, player suspensions, player loss of form, are all part and parcel of football management. You have to get a tune out of whatever is available to you.

We are told Silva follows a formula. He likes a ball-playing goalkeeper. Two tall centre-backs. Marauding fullbacks. Defensive midfielders who support the back line. Speed in transition from defence, through midfield, to attack. Pacy wide men, supporting a mobile striker.

If that is his template and the one they work on in training every day, then every player in the squad presumably is well versed on what is expected of them in their position if they get on the pitch.

We are now a good 2 months on from Silva's first pre-season game as Everton manager, and the model isn't working efficiently yet. Worryingly for me, as evidenced by the last two home games, the savvy managers of fellow Premier League clubs know how Silva's Everton will set up and counter that accordingly.

West Ham did to perfection yesterday what a more conservative Huddersfield failed to do. To counter Silva's desire to see his full backs push on and for his centre-backs to play a high defensive line, WHU – like Huddersfield before them – sat deep and invited Everton on to them, then hit us on the break. We looked good... until their first goal.

Watch how that goal unfolded. Gana - as he was entitled to – plays a decent ball from the centre spot into the feet of Tosun. It's Tosun's poor touch that allows his centre back to pick off the ball. Some have (unfairly, IMO) placed the blame at Gana's feet that we conceded from here. How, I can't fathom. The ball is still deep in West Ham territory, 70 yards from our goal.

The problem is in the set-up and that clearly comes from the manager.

The West Ham centre back plays it forward to the midfielder Obiang, taking Gana out of the game. Schneiderlin closes in on Obiang who simply dinks it over our man to Arnautovic near the centre circle. We are already in trouble at this point. Why? Because our two full-backs are both way in front of the ball in the WHU half, wide on either flank. Kenny 10 yards behind the play. Digne even further adrift - around 20 yards.

Arnautovic plays a chest pass to Obiang who plays a first time through ball back to Arnautovic, who in the meantime has turned and got the run on Holgate. Zouma, who was 15-20 yards off Arnautovic, tries to get back as cover, but has too much ground to make up. Yarmolenko, in the meantime, exploits to the full the free space he has to run into from Digne's absence and Zouma chasing down Arnautovic. The latter unselfishly rolls the ball across to the Ukranian who finishes with aplomb.

All that stems from how the manager sets up the team.

The second goal starts from Pickford's appalling pass. Now I for one do not wish to discourage him from playing this way. In the long term, I believe we will benefit from this. I also believe his distribution for Everton has improved this season, compared to last. But it was a shocking effort.

Even so, his intended recipient – Digne ~ gets a tackle in on the player who picks up the loose ball. Digne even gets back in front of Yarmolenko with Zouma, but poor player awareness (ehrm... did neither of the Everton defenders know not to allow Yarmolenko inside onto his wizard left foot..?) and we are 2-0 down.

It was bold to introduce Bernard before half-time. Sigurdsson's goal from Kenny's excellent cross gave us hope. There was flickering improvement in the second half, but not enough to convince we could salvage anything from the game.

Arnautovic's second, doing Holgate like a kipper, put an end to any hope.

In conclusion, I'm not ready to make a blanket condemnation of our squad as some have expressed. I'm not ready to label Marco Silva 'Martinez Mk II' as some have already.

That said, Silva has yet to allay for me at least the nagging doubt many expressed about his recruitment, namely, the number of goals his Premier League clubs concede on his watch.

It's nine and counting in five fixtures to date, against 'benevolent' opposition. It's something that very much still needs addressing.

It's also a radical tactical shift. Why not keep simple and let him play where he's excelled?

It's the defence and midfield that needs tweaking the most. They're making terrible mistakes. They can be most easily fixed.

The last two home games have shown none of the above, and as a fellow poster mentioned, the atmosphere was subdued, or even absent altogether.

I couldn't get to the match, probably a blessing in disguise, but did watch the whole match via Sky. One thing that did stick out for me that for most of the game, all I could hear was the Hammer's fans singing, that tells me there is something wrong.

Goodison always used to be a fortress, and a ground where opposition teams dreaded coming. The last two games have been like a hunting ground for those who should have had little chance of gaining points, to come in and help themselves!

We are clearly reliant on the incomings working, but we've seen so little of them, apart from Richarlison, who looks very promising. Mina and Gomes are key because the alternatives in their positions, Holgate and Schneiderlin, just aren't good enough. Certainly I've seen enough of the latter with Gana to provide compelling evidence that playing the two together doesn't work.

And Holgate was hopeless on goals 1 and 3, especially the first when he did not even sprint back to the penalty spot to at least try and cover the square ball to Yarmolenko. He just gave up and jogged back and left it an easy 2 on 1.

Sigurdsson has been a massive disappointment, albeit there was no way on earth he was a 㿔M-plus player, more like half of that, so we are maybe expecting what he simply does not have. He needs some time out, he's achieving precious little and his confidence looks shot. I'd give Bernard a try there.

A lot of the kids just aren't ready for the top level yet. Kenny is like early Coleman, good attacking instincts but defensively weak. Davies and Calvert-Lewin are short on quality and the latter is certainly not a winger or wide left player. Maybe try him in the middle, because unfortunately Tosun looks little more suited than Niasse to this level, game though both are. To compound the matter, we have no real leaders on the pitch, we seem to have a squad filled with shy introverts.

I think we are a mid table side at best with current personnel.

I think you hit the problem yesterday in the statement of opposing premiership managers are aware of Silva's tactics and are prepared for them. This is what makes the premier league one of the best, as any club are capable of winning on a given day.

Everton had their opportunities yesterday but did not capitalize on them, West Ham did. We all are aware that we needed a competent striker after Lukaku left, but sadly this never happened; until we can get one, we will struggle in this position, unless the new boy Richarlison is tried and proves to be a success.

We have played 5 games and have "unlike Watford" managed to put out the same starting 11, and hopefully we can achieve this soon with a full squad.

This does not give any excuses for some of the poor play yesterday or the manager's team selection or tactics. As you stated, these are professional football players who earn more in a month than most of us earn over years and all train together with Silva as the coach.

For once, I actually thought the atmosphere was boiling up quite nicely at one stage in the second half. Pity the players never responded by performing any better.

I switched off a 2-0 yesterday because all I could see was last season all over again. Aren't we supposed to give him 10 games before we start judging? Well I think yesterday went a long way to guaranteeing that we will be on the bottom half after 10 games and he will not be judged well.

Personally, I think Moshiri is the issue, but unfortunately he's the one with the finger on the trigger and pretty much untouchable.

Okay, first defeat but, in all honesty, they haven't shown that things are much better than last season so far.

Silva has plenty of time to work on the problems and perhaps when all the new boys are up and running it will be a better team.

However, one just knew that ridiculous action by Richarleson would cost the team and whilst one man shouldn't make a difference it's obvious Everton are severely limited up front.

If you struggle to score, then, at the very least, you have to be sound defensively but against a team like West Ham they were amateurish at best.

Now they have to face the Gooners who have some good finishers so one hopes they can sort out the problems. With what was still a comparatively new back four they were all at sea against a team that have had a poor start to the season.

The bad luck of losing Keane and Coleman so early and Mina still unfit is proving to be a big problem and if it isn't sorted out soon then they will be in dire straits — even this early in the season.

If Gueye was making mistakes because Silva told him to be more adventurous in getting forwards and to try and grab the game by the scruff of the neck, then you have to hope he's learnt his lessons.

If Tom Davies played like Gueye did yesterday, then we'd never hear the end of it. Here's a 28-year-old international that can't pass to a blue shirt. He ran past better ball players and tried passes that weren't on. We needed to keep the ball moving and to pass it quickly. We kept slowing it down and passing it lazily. For me, this is something any manager can fix.

What we also need to remember is that the team trained together after the international break on Friday and Saturday only. So Kenny stepping into the preferred backline happened late. At least we have the full week to get ready for Arsenal now. We can work that makeshift back four, or get Mina into the side, we can get Richarlison back into the side and find a role for Bernard.

I would expect a reaction come Sunday. We've all week to work towards it.

Just take a look at the 15 minute highlight reel of the game on the club site. Now of course, it is not completely representative of how the game played out, but in that reel alone count up the number of very good and accurate crossfield passes Gueye sprayed to both wings.

Yet to hear you and others, you give the impression the lad didn't complete a single pass to a blue shirt all afternoon. You – and others – are wrong.

Yesterday, he really did nothing right. We all know he needs time, God knows that's all we hear off some on here, but that should not give him a free pass when things go wrong.

The players, where necessary, should rightly be criticised, but so should the management. We were quick to slag off Moyes, Martinez, Koeman and Allardyce – even before he got appointed – but for some reason, many on here want Silva given an exemption for all his failings so far.

Most Premier League teams had guys away on international duty, not just us. Most teams only trained Thursday & Friday, we actually had an extra day. The difference being most teams didn't embarrass themselves like we did.

You'd expect a reaction on Sunday? Don't hold your breath on that... Because every realist amongst us knows that will not happen.

Any midfield containing the likes of Schneiderlin, Sigurddson, Gueye, and Davies will struggle at the best of times. Not a creative nerve in any of their bodies. Admittedly Schneiderlin shouldn't have been on the pitch yesterday in light of his circumstances... but he's still not good enough.

Walcott is another who blows hot and cold. Lookman doesn't want to be here so that leaves us relying on Richarlison and, to be fair, he can hardly carry that lot until January at least.

Sigurdsson needs benching and Bernard brought in to see if he can be the playmaker we've been screaming for since Arteta left Up top is a similar story and one that needs addressing next window.

Sure the defence is not working right now but, when Mina comes in to Partner Zouma and we get a stable midfield without Schneiderlin in including Gomez, Bernhard, Richarlison, Walcott and Sigurdsson playing as a unit we will improve.

Did we really think top 4? No way, if we finish 7th or 8th and have a decent cup run it will be a good season. Let's stop the negativity and get back to reality of where we are as a club and get behind the manager.

The high pressing didn't work because out left, Digne had no one in front of him and no one from midfield would cover him when he went surging forward so there was a huge hole there. On the right, Walcott was too deep, and Kenny too far up so they kind of got in each other's way.

To compound things, Schneiderlin tended to drift to the right side of the field, and Holgate was running over to right back to cover Kenny. Consequently, in the first half, we basically had four guys lined up within about 25 yards of each other on the right flank, one person down the entire left side of the field and Zouma all alone in his own half.

I say "cowardice" cos us too because on more than one occasion I saw Sigurdsson doing a Michael Owen, eg, receiving the ball near the box, quickly passing the buck to someone else (usually Gueye) then backing off out of sight of the other attackers into a spot where no one would pass him the ball. He wasn't getting into space, he was hiding. He should be pulling the strings but he chickened out.

Up top, Calvert-Lewin and Tosun were getting under each other's feet and neither seemed confident. The only bright spots were Digne going forward, and Bernard actually looking like he wasn't afraid of the ball and doing things such as dribbling, looking for a good pass.

If he starts the next game with Richarlison then at least with Digne too there will be three players who aren't afraid of the ball. Sorry, make that four as Gueye is no coward but he simply can't pass or shoot.

You are right when you say it wasn't so much the pass from Gueye that caused the first goal, it was Tosun's inability to look after the ball. Then having lost the ball where was the other defensive midfield player, and how come Gueye never got back to help his defenders? As regards Gueye's passing, I don't know if you just saw highlights but apart from one or two passes by and large he missed as many as he made.

I also think watching the game on the television often it doesn't show you the full picture, so if a defender has the ball the television can't show you who is making a run off the ball and who isn't. That's why sometimes there is a difference of opinion for those of us who were at the game and those who watched on the television.

That pass absolutely was poor by Gana and led to their break for the first goal. For five minutes after that he then went on a run of not completing a single damn pass. He continues to be awful with the ball and his poor pass to a man standing still with a defender draped on his back led to us getting caught out of position and their opening goal.

I agree, Gueye's passing was terrible, but he was the only player making himself available for the ball. Schneid and Sigurdsson were hiding, Walcott hanging around the halfway line with Kenny. So it fell to Gueye as the only option to try and control the midfield which is clearly not his forte. But, like Tom Davies in the last few games, I would argue that, while he was ineffective, he was at least brave enough to try and make things happen.

It 'absolutely' was NOT a poor pass by Gueye.

It was a perfectly legitimate pass to make to our – what is it? 㿃 million target man?

It wasn't misplaced. It wasn't overhit. It was a ground pass accurately played into our striker's feet. It was Tosun, if anybody, who failed in that play when the ball bounced up off his feet, allowing it to be picked off by the centre-back.

It was (another) aspect of yesterday's game that stalled Everton's play. Until yesterday, Tosun had done well in holding up the ball and laying it off. He didn't do that well yesterday.

My playing days are well behind me and I never played to any great level, but I insisted my team mates played the ball into me even when closely marked because I backed myself to draw in and beat my marker.

It is a nonsense to suggest as you imply that you cannot play a ball in any circumstances to a to 'a man standing still with a defender draped on his back'.

Aside from the exaggerated description you apply, David, you most certainly can and should (when it suits) play such a ball to potentially take an opposition player out of the game.

The primary failure in that play was Tosun's, not Gueye's.

We should consider something more radical as Calvert-Lewin, Niasse and Tosun are not right presently to lead the attack. I still think Cenk is a player and has worked hard for the team under Silva's system, but the lack of goals is sapping his confidence.

For my sins, I endured the whole game live on TV, not just highlights.

I referenced the 15 minutes highlights on the club site as evidence that Gueye's passing was nowhere near as rank as some are claiming. I clearly also stated the highlights, obviously, are not representative of the full 90 minutes.

The play for their first goal is exactly as I described it @ 54, which is evident from both the TV images or if you attended the game live. Indeed, I would guess being live at the match very few would have taken in the detail of just how far advanced our full backs were that left us vulnerable to West Ham's counter-attack for the goal.

I agreed entirely with what you said about the mistake for the first goal was Tosun's not Gueye's. I was at the game as always and I think our fullbacks were pushed on but we had control of the ball in midfield and they only had Aunautovic in our half when Tosun lost the ball. So if we want to play an attacking game in that situation, it was right for Kenny to have gone forward, maybe Digne didn't need to go forward as well.

I, like everybody else, was disappointed with the result, but just seen a piece by Andy Gray and agree with everything he said. He said one man doesn't make a team but if Everton had a Premier League striker then I think we may have seen a different result. He said in his opinion that Tosun or Niasse are good enough to play in a top 10 Premier League club and I wholeheartedly agree.

He also said that that's so far 3 managers who haven't replaced Lukaku, which has to be our number one priority. But, to be fair to Silva, he has had 1 window and I am sure he realizes that we need better strikers.

Early days and I support Silva but Schneiderlin & Gueye doesn't work. Carrying on with this partnership into the new regime shouldn't be an option.

"[Gueye] Spraying the ball about to both wings – having a laugh."

Watch the 15 minutes highlights and count the number of times Gueye does just that successfully. It should give you 'a giggle'.

For the third time in this thread, I will repeat that the highlights are obviously not representative of the entire game. But brief and selective as they are, they make a nonsense of some of the more extreme denigration some are making about Gueye yesterday.

Yesterday, I am afraid the young lads struggled to suggest they're ready, and the older pros proved that they're pretty average.

Cheap goals, poor passing, and no threat from the centre-forward rounded the day off. Calvert-Lewin on the wing was a mistake, and keeping him on over Tosun was yet another. Early days...

I'm not suggesting that Gueye is the cause of all our problems but his partnership with Morgan is a major part of it. Their partnership doesn't work, and over 90 minutes Gueye's passing is shockingly poor. Combined, they don't protect the defence enough meaning we setup with minimal creativity for little defensive return.

We were terrible last season and I'm not expecting to Silva to sort this out in 5 games but persisting with a midfield duo that has consistently failed shouldn't be an option. Fixing this is just one of the many issues Silva has to solve but it is an important one. Not sure I'm yet up to watching 15 minutes of lowlights.

We need to go all out and get a top class centre-forward.

Once we have our quota of defenders back, I fully expect us to knit as a unit.

Marco will have stronger options in defence, and in attack I have every faith in Tosun and, with Richarlison returning and Bernard looking good, we will be fine.

What does concern me is our midfield and, prior to the season starting, I thought we were lacking quality. However, in Gomes we may yet have an exceptional talent. Schneiderlin and Gueye don't work, as I have said several times.

Aaron Mooy is the man for me in the centre but that's next summer's business when Huddersfield may sell as I think they may get relegated.

James McCarthy and Beni Baningime? Can they really make a telling forward pass? They are water carriers – no different from Schneiderlin and Gueye.

Let's hope Gomes is the answer. We just want the manager to start seeing things early and at least try and rectify it. Or we will be looking for manager number six...

Pellegrini had done his homework on Tosun and knew they could pick him off, when they ball is played into him. Lukaku had more strength to hold the defender back give himself half a yard or roll the defender. Tosun doesn't have that strength or ability as much.

This attribute of a striker goes under the radar but can change the shape of games.

Our problems will not be solved in one transfer window. Give Silva time!

It's an absolute must and it was clearly evident when we sold Lukaku that we never had a focal point and someone to hold the ball up that's why Koeman tried his best to sign Giroud.

Tosun was bought under the premise of having these attributes as well as being able to finish. The fact is evidently he's not strong enough to cut the mustard in the Premier League.

I'd give him one more game up top and if he doesn't improve I'd drop him put Richarlison up top and Bernard on the left wing and give that a go. Richarlison has everything to be a top strker as well as a top winger.

One moment I was up off my seat thinking “That's a fantastic run”, a microsecond later my match-going pal of almost 50 years was shouting “That's shite control”. And we were both correct, at Premier League level.

Such fine margins.

Pickford-Coleman-Mina-Zouma-Digne-McCarthy-Gomes-Sigurdsson-Walcott-Richarlison-Bernard.

If that side doesn't win us some games, then I'll start getting worried. I think good times are just around the corner.

Silva and his tactics have got a lot to prove as well as the new signings and current crop of players playing this way.

Interesting to hear while typing this comment Troy Deeney saying how impressed he was with Marco Silva at Watford and backing him to do well with us; time will tell!

Most of these players have got two managers sacked and a third received his marching orders because the only way he could get points was to keep the team on a tight defensive leash because, if we opened up, we would get murdered.

Enter Silva and Brands. The defence is crap and we needed players – Digne, Mina, Zouma brought in. We lack creativity and goals – Richarlson (Silva was desperate to get him), Bernard and Gomes, brought in too.

All these players will surely improve the first XI: Digne looking okay; Zouma played twice; Mina not at all; Bernard still getting up to speed but he looks good to me; Gomes not played yet; and Richarlison really looks the business but let himself and the club down at Bournemouth.

The rest for me can be assessed as follows:

Pickford, very good but like Keane, is suffering in my opinion from too much football and the mental tiredness it brings with it.

Walcott will do a good job for us, if he stays fit.

Coleman needs this season to get himself back up to speed and his confidence fully restored after his horrific injury.

Baines is a good back-up to Digne now.

Kenny is learning so Walcott has to help him out, as will Mina. His crosses on Saturday were terrific.

The midfield of Schneiderlin and Gueye is finished and will never be the answer to controlling a game – when was the last time we did control a game, by the way?

Davies is learning but the penny has to drop soonest.

Holgate will be a good central defender but not a centre-half who dominates centre-forwards as I expect Mina and Zouma to do when they eventually play together.

Jagielka and Keane are not good enough, sorry to say. Both internationals who make poor judgements and get caught out, leaving attackers unmarked too often for my liking.

I reserve judgement on Tosun until I see him with a proper creative midfield behind him (not two holding) and players who can play him in behind defenders.

Niasse can go but, as he will be around until January, he should play in the Under-23s to get some goals.

Calvert-Lewin is still learning but I believe there is a player in there.

Sigurdsson worries me as he is not getting involved enough. Maybe it's mental fatigue too. Also it could be because the other two in midfield can't pass forwards or, as on Sunday, sideways.

Lookman wants out which makes me sad and I would like to know the real reason why he so obviously hates being at EFC.

Silva needs time and he also needs a lot more quality. Until such times, here is my immediate future should everyone ever be fit at the same time. Some hope, I know, but it's hope that keeps me going, well most of the time anyway:

Defence: Pickford, Coleman, Mina, Zouma, Digne;
Midfield: Bernard, Gomes, Gueye;
Attack: Richarlson, Walcott and Tosun.

Subs: Stekelenburg, Baines, Holgate, Sigurdsson, Schneiderlin, Davies, Calvert-Lewin.

With more quality to be brought in during January.

As regards the way players are treated at Goodison Park: A memory that has long lived in the memory for me is the cat-calling of Peter Reid in his final days at Goodison. Yes, he was not the player he was but god he gave everything for EFC and yet he was booed by fans who once adored him. I have never forgotten it. The fickleness of some so-called die-hard Evertonians can be very hard to take sometimes. Patience, people, please.

Their second goal wasn't really typical of a systemic defensive failing apart from the fact that the ball was needlessly given away and all three of their goals were clinically taken.

Do you think any coach has to teach his players not to give the ball away? For some reason Gana Gueye, Zouma and Holgate seemed to think they had to produce wonder passes whenever they had the ball when I'm sure that wasn't the game plan at all.

Looking at the first goal in detail, it starts to go horribly wrong when Gana decides his best option is to ping in a twenty yard pass to an isolated Cenk Tosun who already has the defender right up next to him. Terrible choice, especially when Digne was following what I thought was the manager's game plan by drifting into acres of space on the left flank in their half.

Unsurprisingly the ball ricocheted away from Tosun to one of theirs who plays it past the on rushing Gana (presumably keen to make up for his error) to Arnautovic. Holgate panics and decides to rush to Arnautovic who simply lays the ball back to a team mate and spins quickly to run behind our defence.

Schneiderlin is too far away to do anything but still takes himself out of the game by attempting to get to the West Ham player Arnautovic played the ball back to. That is Gana, Holgate and Schneiderlin all taken out of the equation pretty much by their own poor decision making in the space of two passes.

Zouma now has Hobson's choice; he has to abandon his reasonable defensive position to cover Holgate. His first step is to try tomatch Holgate's charge up the pitch to see if they can at least put Arnautovic offside but that doesn't work as the ball over the top for Arnautovic to run onto is played quickly. Zouma's really got no chance of getting to Arnautovic and Yarmolenko made the supporting run and got his reward.

So that is two errors by Gana and one by Holgate that were wholly avoidable, combined with good reactions and slick passing by the West Ham players that led to that goal. Do you believe Marco Silva spends his time saying “Gana, ignore the man in space with the capability of delivering good crosses and instead zip it in to someone who has nowhere to go and no-one to play it to in the hope that he can do something miraculous.”

Or, “Mason, it is crucial that when you are 4 yards away from a player like Arnautovic when he is receiving the ball on the half way line with his back to goal and no one ahead of him you rush at him in such a way that a simple lay off and spin will take you out of the game.”

You are apparently seeing evidence of players being coached to defend badly, whilst I see players continuing to make the same poor choices (that will forever mark them as nearly men) that they have made under previous managers. Gana's never going to learn not to be too ambitious with his distribution which is why he shouldn't be taking on the amount of passing duties he is. I don't know if Mason Holgate can learn to make better choices on holding or committing himself.

I was working purely on memory from yesterday afternoon, but I am certain that it was an awful choice of pass by Gana, and he and Mason Holgate made poor choices following the loss of possession (Schneiderlin and Zouma had no real options but to react as they did following the decisions made by Gana and Holgate) and so I think the general point I was trying to make still stands.

Gana can pass and his work rate is great, but he tries passes that he consistently does not make and his decision making over the options available to him is not perfect either. Like a lot of players, he can clip the ball about to players who have time but he doesn't have the absolute accuracy or timing for precision play in heavy traffic.

Tosun had no real chance with that ball and there were better options available.

Tosun had a perfectly good ball played in to him and one of his asks in the absences of goals is to hold and link play up. He was just like a paper bag just blown away like a schoolboy by the defender.

On top of that, Tosun has no movement and no work rate. He absolutely needs dropping until his confidence returns.

If your forwards aren't moving the defense about, who can you pass to. That was one of the big problems for Holgate and Gueye yesterday. Players are hiding instead of showing for the ball.

A “hard bastard” center-mid wouldn't go amiss in January and a new “goalscoring” centre-forward... if the recruitment staff can remember what one of those is.

None of the others are any better than Tosun, we have no-one who we could put there unless we draft Richarlison there or possibly Walcott there.

It is an absolute must we bring in two quality strikers in the next window, one at the very least.

Yes I think its generally accepted thats what we are missing and certainly Silvas previous interest in Doucre points to what kind of player he wants in Midfield.

Perhaps Brand is already on the lookout for such a player...and there maybe one available somewhere in Europe that we can get in January.

However, getting a 20-goal striker will be a much more difficult task and beyond even Brands to obtain in the January window and we will probably have to wait until the summer. This then begs the question: Who can we realistically attract?

Every club is after a regular goalscorer and the Champions League clubs will always have first pick of the best; however, other clubs in the past seem to have picked up players that have been under the radar or overlooked... eg, Demba Ba, Vardy, Payet, di Canio... (granted some of these weren't prolific goalscorers but were undoubtedly talented and exciting when in their pomp).

I suppose we did attempt to find one in Sandro who did look a decent prospect after a good spell in Spain but we all know how that has ended.

Personally, I have no idea of any likely candidates but there's sometimes a player at a particular club that just doesn't gell there and moves on to another and then just clicks... (eg, Mitrovic at Fulham; Duncan Ferguson when he was at Rangers; also, when Andy Cole first went to Man Utd, he was woeful and their fans wanted rid... in fact, there were strong rumours he was on his way here).

Maybe there are some here who may have some knowledge of strikers at other clubs abroad... or even closer to home, who may fit that bill?

The quality of the player, their pedigree and Club/International background, shows they are meant to be in the starting 11. Digne (Barcelona), Mina (Barcelona), Gomes (Barcelona), Bernard (Brazil International), Richarlison (Brazil International), Zouma (Chelsea).

Our back line should be Digne, Mina, Zouma and Coleman. Our attack should be Richarlison, Bernard, Walcott, with Gomes in midfield.

They were never going to flip the squad in one Summer, never. They addressed a hell of a lot, including clearing out a massive number of players. I would imagine a striker is high on Brands's and Silva's list, but it has to be done over a period of time.

The last thing we want is to take another risk on a striker that we're not fully confident on or doesn't have a well-established pedigree. None of what we have up front right now is anywhere near the quality we need. It will be addressed, but not until next year, finances dictate that.

As others have pointed out, the midfield and striking options are the biggest problem. Calvert-Lewin isn't the answer, Niasse isn't good enough and, while Tosun has his attributes, he isn't a 20-goal striker. The obvious name to buy is Rashford and I think he'd be tempted to come and be our main striker.

In the meantime, I'd be giving Richarlison a try as a No 9. We have strength in wide areas and it might be an idea to stick Bernard or Lookman out on the left-hand side and play Richarlison centrally. Either are better than Calvert-Lewin who isn't good enough as a wide striker.

As for a midfielder, I have to say we missed a trick not buying James Maddison.

Tosun, Niasse and Calvert-Lewin are simply not cutting it at the moment, whether it be lack of skill or confidence.

You must be living in Cloud Cuckoo Land, pal!!

Let's all get behind a manager that has done nothing but FAIL in the Premier League. Why should I or any other Evertonian get behind him???

5 games and we should have won them all except West Ham because they were the better team, more desire, more hunger more class.... Fact!

Get behind the Manager? Fuck him... He's useless!! Gone by Christmas. Mark my words!!

I agree with David Barks assessment apart from Zouma, I prefer Keane in there.

When are we going to get a break? It's true that it's 5 managers we have had who are nowhere near top level.

If Brands continues to find us class players but the boss can't fathom a winning system, he will get fed up and be tempted by Man Utd. No doubt they will come sniffing sooner or later because we seem to be their air supply if they go looking for class... or looking to offload a has-been or a crock.

Koeman, Walsh and Allardyce have made sure that Silva, or whoever it was that took the manager's job, had a mountain to climb. Cut Silva some slack until all 5 of his guys pull on the Blue shirt. I will reserve Judgement untill Gomes, Mina and Bernard join Digne and Zouma on the pitch.

One thing I have noticed this season is the lack of attention being paid by our fans to the dismally poor form Jordan Pickford is showing. We are crucifying everyone that moves yet Jordan is immune from stick and he has been utter shite this season. The free kick Neves scored for Wolves in the first game was the start of the awfull form and, on Saturday, Pickford was abysmal.

So Jordan saved a penalty for England in the World Cup... big deal. I don't think many of us give a shit about England at the moment. I said at the weekend Pickford is too small for a keeper and some bright spark on here reffered to Shilton and Banks being the same hieght as Pickford. Yes, that's great but Shilton and Banks were probably the biggest guys on the pitch at the time. There were no 6ft-6in center-halves and strikers coming up for corners back then.

A bigger keeper would've blocked West Ham's 3rd on Saturday. A big keeper is not just about hieght and coming for crosses – it's also about filling the goal space, making yourself BIG!!! Don't get me started on the West Ham 2nd goal which was disgraceful and a non-English keeper would of gotten both barrells for it.

We all know we have an injury-stricken defence, a slow useless midfield, and no proper striker at the club, so now we can also throw in to the mix a tiny dodgey keeper for our troubles.

Anyone want an Arsenal away ticket??

Brands was not even started in his job, but was brought in early to deal with the only candidate for the manager's job and the various promises that were made to him. He could do little about the promises, but could at least talk to Silva and see if he was suitable for the job. The contract was agreed with the rest of the Board and Brands would have to wait to see if Silva could deliver on the pitch.

Brands did provide him with suitable players, sort off. He had to risk taking on injured players, given Everton's reputation as a career destination. This seems to be working out. He also reduced the squad by moving on players who were not up to standard, limited by the amount of work that can be done in one transfer window.

Brands will be wanting to appraise progress so far and want all players to play so that he can get an assessment of their ability. He will be drawing up a list of positions that need strengthing and players required. Brands will also be appraising tactics, their implementation and suitability. He will be looking at areas to improve and setting goals regarding this improvement.

Brands won't care who Everton play next or whether its home or away. He will want to see improvement in tactical implementation and selection, with transferred-in players used to good effect, to fulfil the strategic plan. There is no doubt that some players in the first team are on trial, only there because of the limits of one transfer window.

Even a slight improvement against Arsenal in selection and tactics may make a difference; Silva can be sure that Brands will be watching closely and won't hold back on decisions once he has done his assessment. The good thing about the West Ham game is that it was good preparation for the Arsenal game, which will be similar in style.

Arsenal is going to be a big test for Silva in more ways than one.

Gana and Shneiderlin is still not a good combination.

Pushing Gana forward has been tried before and doesn't work.

We are missing Keane's improved form this season.

Calvert-Lewin is not going to make it. Good athlete, not a footballer.

Tosun lacks pace and his confidence has gone.

Walcott is always going to be in and out of the game.

Sigurdsson is not the creative Number 10 we need, but scores the odd goal.

In the words of that old song, you took the words right outta my mouth.

The ball is always in the air, our passing is woeful, players still slip and slide all over the fucking place or go down way too easy, players played out of position or off form, we persist with systems that don't work every fucking game, we always look so slow in everything we do, we start games at a snail's pace and look so easy to counter and slice open time and time again???

Regardless of manager or players, nowt seems to ever change. Time to think outside the box and try a radical new approach or this shit will continue for years to come.

So, for me... 3-5-1-1:

Pickford
Holgate Jagielka Zouma
Kenny Coleman Gana Baines Digne
Bernard
Richarlison

Try something new! ...nothing to lose down at the Emirates, as our record there is a disgrace as it is.

But if that's the deal then you have to be honest with the supporters, tell them that's what you're doing and what went wrong and, in particular, what radical actions you are taking with players who do not sign up.

we have had a bellyful of false dawns, overrated players, phoney buys and half-hearted time-wasters. Lay out your vision and the process and let people buy in. If you haven't got one, or prefer to keep it to yourself, then I can tell you right now which way this will go.

It sounds as if you're saying you want Silva to say something along the lines of "we are bringing a knife to a gunfight".

Jeez, you boys are being hard taskmasters.

Watch the play again for that Calvert-Lewin run from Gueye's excellent 40-yard pass.

Whilst Gueye takes a few strides forward with the ball at his feet, Calvert-Lewin, looking at Gueye who is right of the centre circle still in our half, starts from just inside the centre circle, again in our half.

It is Calvert-Lewin's sprint and awareness that BEGS for the pass from Gueye, who duly delivers (that's the wee fellah in midfield who can't find a blue shirt with his passing, of course).

It is Calvert-Lewin's run that carries him beyond the West Ham backline.

If you watch the play as the ball falls to him Calvert-Lewin cannot attempt the volley you both say he could have tried because he is in the wrong stride pattern. The right leg is already extending as the ball falls to him and he would not have been able to get any sort of accuracy or power on the volley you say he should have attempted.

You might have a case if his left leg was the extended and supporting leg as the ball fell for him, which would allow him to attempt the volley you suggest with his following right peg.

To offer that up as an example, Steve, of a chance that a top-level striker would be scoring all day long is a tad hyperbolic. Scoring from that type of situation is not commonplace at all, even by the world's elite strikers.

There was much to admire in that play in a game of so much dross. We should be praising both Calvert-Lewin and Gueye for it. Not criticising them.

I am comparing apples to oranges here style wise, but to your point, I remember Shearer talking about going to Blackburn. He said the biggest thing was that Dalglish spent a lot of time working with him on his running, movement and stride. Consequently, he would be best placed to get the shot away.

We heard a lot about Big Dunc working with Lukaku on holding the ball up and aerial prowess – which was one of Dunc's skills, but do we have anyone in the staff to help with the prowess of other aspects of striking?

I don't think that back 4 had played together before and we have been mixing and matching there all season, which has been a problem position for 2 or 3 seasons anyway. I was worried when I saw the back 4. Centre-backs very rarely get thrown together and gel, it's all about combination play and takes time.

However, I don't think Silva helped them by playing it way too open and high up the pitch with the fullbacks bombing. It was asking to be countered.

The mix in midfield has been a long standing problem as well, which I assume is the reason he signed Gomez. We need someone in there that can play ahead of the holder and pass it, control the tempo and make things tick. Davies or Gana – who was awful, aren't an option for that role as far as I am concerned. I guess it's why Silva dropped Sigurdsson in there but the whole thing was a bit of a mess really.

We signed 3 players in the spine (2 centre-backs and a mid) of the side as the whole thing needed sorting. I wanted a pacey striker as well. It was completely obvious we needed it to stretch sides and give centre-backs more to think about.

We will be more than ok but that result and performance is a reality check. We need to get the new lads playing and bedded in.

With our limited options play Calvert-Lewin as center-forward and give him a run of games. Leave Richarlison out wide and cutting in, get more creativity in midfield by dropping one of Gana/Morgan and try to get a consistent defence, although this has proved to be impossible with injuries.

Richarlison looks great, Bernard looked classy, Digne looks good going forward but maybe exposed defensively. Let the team gel.

I didn't say I expected Calvert-Lewin to score, I said it would have been a great goal. I give Gana credit for a very good pass and Calvert-Lewin for a great run, he's a young lad who I expect to make continued improvement.

As for the incident of the goal-scoring chance, I think it is the mindset of Calvert-Lewin, if he's telling himself "I'm going to get hold of this" (the pass) that's what he tried to do, and it didn't come off, now if he told himself "I'm going to wack this when it comes through" – then he might have beat the keeper with the shot, it will all come with experience.

As John McFarlane might have said, "It's a lot easier looking at it from off the pitch."

No, I never watched that game, Everton know I go out for a good drink on a Monday but they still choose that night for a lot of the U23s matches!!!

I didn't miss much by the sound of it, did I?

"It's a lot easier looking at it from off the pitch."

That half-chance only came about because Calvert-Lewin took the initiative to create it, starting his run from the centre circle, in our half, anticipating ahead of any other player on the pitch what was 'on'.

His run begged for Gueye to make the pass he did. Calvert-Lewin is running at full speed, looking for a high dropping ball over his shoulder. There was an awful lot to compute in the nano-seconds he had to make a decision.

He didn't fail on poor vision or anticipation, or lack of speed, or poor technique, or poor coordination, or poor finishing, or lack of effort, or lack of experience.

He failed on bad luck that his final 1-2 strides weren't quite in sync with how and where the ball fell.

That play alone shows me once again what an unappreciated player we have in Calvert-Lewin.

I know the overall game was dross on Sunday, Dave, but too many are ignoring some very good things that did happen in that game, seemingly, it appears to me, to beat up on their own preferred 'fall guy'.

There's the Chang as a temptation.

Jay (123), not blaming Calvert-Lewin at all, if the move would have
come off we'd be talking about it ten years from now. As for Sunday: well we were poor for long stretches of the game, had good chances which should have been put away and goals scored by West Ham which came from mistakes by our own players that caused the wrath of a lot of supporters, including me.

Football, as you know, Jay, is a very emotional experience and, let's be honest two, or three of the Sunday's team will not be missed, by me at least, when they are moved on.

Like everyone else, I was disappointed that the chance wasn't converted, but the players are not machines that you can programme, and better players than Dominic Calvert-Lewin have suffered the same fate.

I believe that we as supporters sometimes demand perfection, but when the initial disappointment wears off, we acknowledge the fact that perfection is an elusive thing.

Five games, for fuck's sake! He will not be gone by Christmas, that is just utter garbage.

Also I think you are bang on about Silva/Brands signings, we have to wait untill all fit, but I have a feeling they are gonna be a much higher standard than Klasson, Keane, Sigs, a static midfield and a 49 year old Leighton Baines. The damage done since we've had money is sickening spent by Koeman/Walsh. Lets face it 27 million on Tosun is also a farce.

The West Ham result had been on the cards as it was third game at GP, - Soton, Huddersfield and West Ham, were our midfield was done, albeit v Soton we just held on plus some weird ref descisions, but the alarms were there.

In all games the defence resorted sadly to their “default mode” and went missing. This cost us and now from a god fixture list we find ourselves in the position of far fewer points than all thought.

Huddersfield, read the riot act as the worst team at GP in years made Everton look like a Team that was lost and had no direction. Their midfield turned up and out thought and out played ours.

West Ham deserved what they got but in my view this game, highlighted little cohesion and team play in pressing and closing and almost playing like independent formations with little or no communication. We need a real Captain on the pitch, but do we have a charamatic nark, in the mould of Reid, and guile of Ratcliffe, in this team, or even in the whole club?

Hopefully the riot act has been read. Lessons learnt, we hope so!

Silva he's not had a fair chance yet. But fight, guts and spirit, identity he's talked about off the pitch in interviews must be default requirement for every match. Play like their lives depend on it. On Sunday the game feebly was over by 70 mins albeit Niasse miss, but West Ham played with us.

I hope history is written this Sunday and We will allbe made up..but what happen v Fulham, do we have the level to knock out back to back wins against such teams?

I hope the team plays as a team and doesn't put all hope on Richarlison. Hopefully some spark will return and the mental fears are lost.

Let's not get too despondent and hopefully the club dusts itself down and shows guts and character this week.

But as optimistic as I am, I see us getting a good start at Arsenal, and like so many times

Down hill slalom at 12 noon tomorrow, the weekend beckons, All have a good week.

Trying hard to think of any other forwards we could land who could fit the forwards role better.

I took it as a positive from the match. It was a good move.

DCL possibly showed inexperience as much as lack of technique. It was a difficult ball to take.

Most of all, on a weekend when there have been some pretty strong posts on here against fellow supporters, I was commenting on how the same split second could be viewed so differently by two people sitting next to each other. We didn't insult one another, we ended up
Just laughing at how differently we had seen the same thing.

Since my first game at Goodison in 1947 I have seen everything, from dreadful teams in the post war era, to the Vernon, Collins and Labone era of great Everton teams who played football that was admired throughout England. We then had to wait until the eighties to be able to watch another spell of always being near the top of the league and taking part in a number of cup finals.

Since then we have had our ups and downs with some Okay seasons but nothing too super special. Money has become the major factor in success and the Premier league has significantly reduced the chances of ever seeing any teams such as Ipswich, Derby, Portsmouth, Burnley etc etc winning anything except the annual fight against relegation.

I did not include Everton, my beloved "Blues" in that group, not because I am biased, which I am, but because I am an Evertonian and I still think we CAN win the Premier league. Obviously not this season but possibly during the life time of those under Thirties who I referred to earlier in my post.

I think all younger supporters are understandably frustrated and rightly so. They have been given a bum rap and want to see more success than they have been provided with over the past thirty years. This is why they seem to have a difficult time watching such recent games as Huddersfield and West Ham and seeing such poor football along with unacceptable results. I still think and hope that good things may be around the corner.

I also think that younger fans are often tired of hearing older Evertonians talk about the great teams of the past .I do know how you feel because my Dad and Uncles and older brothers used to constantly tell me about Dixie Dean and the unbeatable Everton teams of the nineteen thirties. This was in 1950 and I was eleven years and had only ever seen very poor Everton teams, always near the bottom until we were relegated in 1952. At that time and age I never thought that we would ever win anything again. However things did improve and hopefully they will again.

One final thought in my ramblings. I am so glad I am an Evertonian. It has always been an immense part of my life. I also have Three Evertonian kids plus Evertonian grandchildren. I NEVER envy the red enemy over the Park no matter what they win. We will rise again and we will be great again. We all need to try to be patient even through the most difficult times. CYOB Blue for EVER.

Brands and Moshiri have a totally different mentality than anyone around them. Silva so far is making the same mistakes game after game... which, for now, is okay – but is he learning from them??

If Silva is as good as the other two, then exciting times ahead. If not... well, false dawn Number 6.

I too used to wonder if what my father (Kendall, Ball & Harvey) & Grandfather (Hickson & vague Dixie Dean recollection) were telling me the truth. I kept the faith.

Putting it into more modern reality, when we were gloating in the 80s, a certain Manchester United had not won the league since 1968 and actually been relegated in the early part of the 70s.

More recently lesser yet reasonably big clubs (in the traditional sense, not the modern Sky TV classified sense) such as Chelsea & Man City have come from the lower divisions (yes what we now call Championship & League 1) to dominate; arguably a modern version of Shankly's 1960s' into 1970's Liverpool.

So what? It can happen; it will happen; it's happened to us just as it has to others. We just have to keep believing it will!

Our day will come again.

I too used to wonder if what my father (Kendall, Ball & Harvey) & Grandfather (Hickson & vague Dixie Dean recollection) were telling me the truth. I kept the faith.

Putting it into more modern reality, when we were gloating in the 80s, a certain Manchester United had not won the league since 1968 and actually been relegated in the early part of the 70s.

More recently lesser yet reasonably big clubs (in the traditional sense, not the modern Sky TV classified sense) such as Chelsea & Man City have come from the lower divisions (yes what we now call Championship & League 1) to dominate; arguably a modern version of Shankly's 1960s' into 1970's Liverpool.

So what? It can happen; it will happen; it's happened to us just as it has to others. We just have to keep believing it will!

Our day will come again.

Many of the posts so far highlight the (widely recognised) inadequacies of a number of players. Whilst, to varying degrees, these criticisms may be valid, they aren't exactly news; most of us have been aware of them for quite some time. This shows just how big a job that the owner, DOF and coaching staff have in trying to develop us into a consistently competitive outfit that challenges at the very top of league. Its also a task that most of us recognise will take a number of transfer windows (and no little money!) in order to transform the squad. Therefore I find it a little pointless to scrutinise the performance of players that may not be here when hopefully we have become competitive.

Instead over the last few weeks I've turned my attentions to the common denominators between the current position and hopefully the 'promised land'.

One must assume that Moshiri and Brands are in this for the long haul (we'd be in real trouble is Moshiri wasn't!). That leaves consideration of the manager. Personally, I've been singularly unimpressed by Silva's start. Although we've played the whipping boys in the first 4 games (although, unlike many, I do recognise that WHU are much better than bottom of the table suggested and was never going to be easy) we've rarely looked a cohesive unit and exhibited no real developed pattern of play with the result of securing only one narrow victory.

Whilst the fans can see the players' inadequacies, I wonder if Silva can because it's clear that in particular our centre halves and centre midfielders aren't strong enough to accommodate the tactics of pushing the full backs (almost negligently) too high with the consequence that when we inevitably cough up possession cheaply (whoever the culprit may be at that particular time) the opposition is straight onto our rapidly back-peddling back three (including GK). This has happened against the whipping boys - goodness knows what will happen against the good sides. To date, based on average goals conceded, we'd need to score 3 goals a game to win - even some halfwit can tell that that's not a sustainable model.

I'm really disappointed and concerned that Silva hasn't addressed this and tinkered with / moderated his tactics to accommodate the quality of the players he has to work with. Unless he does then it will be a long and arduous process until Brands and Moshiri can recruit the quality of player that can make a decent fist of such adventurous tactics. The problem for Silva being that Moshiri may run out of patience with him in the meantime.

Whilst I'm definitely not advocating yet another change of manager not least as we desperately need some stability, Silva needs to perform so much better than he has so far, even if its at the pragmatic expense of reigning in some attacking desire including his idealistic obsession with pushing his full backs so high.

The period to Christmas (by which time we've played everyone once) will tell us much more about Silva's abilities and inform his long term future.

Like you, I expected Silva to address in this match the repeated problems that have arisen in the first four games.

Given that there where errors made by individual players, what stood out for me was team selection, implementation of tactics, and coaching thereof.

Silva initially started with a high pressing game, but he did not have the players, particularly with pace, to implement it. Tosun and Sigurdsson where clearly off the pace and ineffective leading the press. The gaps that were left allowed West Ham to bypass the defensive midfield and the defence was left out of position, with pace issues and in a number of cases showed lack of coaching on whether to commit or not. The West Ham midfield trio were able to tackle, overlap and rotate throughout the game largely unchallenged, pressuring the heart of the Everton defence, with success.

The defensive midfield of Everton largely played long passes, which sacrificed accuracy, to the Walcott wing. It must have been to take pressure off the Calvert-Lewin wing, where any forward play was dominated by the excellent Digne. Why was Calvert-Lewin initially put on the wing? And no place made for Lookman was bad omen from the start.

Sigurdsson was bypassed or went missing most of the game. Tosun seems to have a "lay the ball off" role and provides overlap for Walcott, but the fact that he can't seem to turn his marker or take a chance means that opposition defences are able to push up, maintaining a higher line, compressing Everton play and providing support for their midfield to turnover Everton players. I don't think Silva has an overall forward tactical strategy and can't find anyone who can.

The question that I am asking: Is Silva's coaching and tactics so weak that the result is that players don't know what they are doing? West Ham beat Everton with a clear tactical strategy, well implemented by well-coached players. Their playing style is similar to Arsenal. The West Ham success at the heart of the Everton defence is worrying given that Everton weren't tested once by a set piece.

Yes, Stephen, Silva worries me as well.

So Lookman would have been “shunted” off the park but Bernard was able to come on and repeatedly skin his man? And is Germany known for being a small league? Because Lookman did just fine there.

One thing I do know is that Calvert-Lewin on the left wing has and will continue to be absolutely useless. Once Bernard came on, suddenly we had a threat on the left. Before then, nothing.

That is the only thing that is concerning me about Silva, that he is doing the same as previous managers and putting the likes of Calvert-Lewin out wide. That problem goes back to Moyes throwing Anichebe on the wing. I just can not understand why the hell a manager won't just put a player in his natural position.

Bernard not fully fit? Fine, throw Lookman out wide. But the next man Calvert-Lewin takes on and beats with the ball will be his first. He's useless out there.

Calvert-Lewin also offers some height in a track. With Walcott on the other side it's a very short front line. Our full backs were both decent with their deliveries in Saturday.

For me neither of them should be starters. Not to say they couldn't be, but I don't see enough in either of them yet.

Then, the biggest mystery of all, selling Lukaku and not replacing him with a decent quality striker. Fans can see the bleeding obvious when it is right in front of them.

The whole forward line only produced one passing movement all game, originated by Bernard, resulting in a goal, everything came from the wings. Again, there was tactical and coaching inadequacies shown by Silva.

Bernard looks a great prospect, but Silva needs to improve on tactics and their implementation in the performance against West Ham.

All this has a habit of catching up on managers that can lead to their demise, as confidence begins to ebb away throughout the squad.

And if he's spent the money on some “proven” goal scorer he'd be attacked for neglecting the left side of the attack, or the defense that has been declining for years, or the midfield that needs upgrading.

Almost like the entire team needs to be rebuilt and that's an impossible task to accomplish in one Summer while also having to ship off more than a dozen players. Almost like this is a long-term project that will take more than one Summer and the management is focused on the bigger picture as opposed to the opening 5 matches of this season.

Everton have spent huge amounts on other players in the past 2 seasons, yet, under Martinez, even when cash was short, he may sure Everton had at least a centre-forward who could score goals and lead the line.

At the moment, up front, Everton look so desperate, with no-one chomping at the bit threatening the opposition goal. Doesn't bode well for the near future. IMO.

Say no more.

If your idea of a centre-forward is not scoring goals for club and country this season, if you don't mind, I don't share this particular idea of yours.

The other problem is that this isn't working either, because the shape to hold the high pressing game favoured by Silva isn't holding together, because of lack of pace of the players selected and poorly coached individual players. This leaves the centre-forward position unsupported and isolated.

In the West Ham game, there was only one passing movement involving all the forwards. Any crosses where ineffective, because Tosun was the only forward challenging for them. Calvert-Lewin stayed wide, only coming central when Bernard come on. Even then, all long passes from midfield were played to the Walcott wing. After this change, Digne provided consistent crosses all game from the left wing, with players not set up to challenge for them.

What I am saying is that Silva's tactical plan for the forward players did not exist and any tactical plan for support play failed. This explains the ineffectiveness of the forward players in the West Ham game to some extent.

Can we just wait to see how the fucking season develops once Richarlison, Bernard, Gomes, Mina, Digne, Walcott actually play together?

Go away, have a good think, find a player or two (especially if it's one brought up through our youth system) that you can tear into, become so inebriated that you forget everything you have ever known about building a football team — all the while watching a constant stream of RS goals, and then, just maybe, you will be ready to come back.

Tosun, the leader of the high press, providing lay-offs and overlap for Walcott, has come to realise his survival will depend on him actually scoring goals. He therefore will have his own priority and Silva's priority will take second place.

This is the problem Silva has now, on not addressing issues game on game as regards tactics and individual coaching of players. Silva has to play the tactics to suit the players he has. He cannot impose tactics on players who are not capable and not coached to implement those tactics.

Also, his player selection and replacement has to be consistent with the tactics he is trying to implement.

As Lyndon has said, there are questions all over the shop.

Very interesting points but, as for Tosun, despite your assertion of his role as a link man, he found himself in on goal on three occasions (thinking of himself?) and failed to score.

His confidence must be low now.