When Nationalism and Internationals collide

From ESPNFC:

Tosun posted a photo showing him and other Turkey internationals saluting fans in support of the Turkish army's offensive against the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces after the Euro 2020 qualifying win against Albania.

Tosun wrote on Instagram: "For our nation, especially for the ones who are risking their lives for our nation."

Several civilians and fighters have been killed in ongoing military actions and several European states, including Germany, have blocked sales to Turkey.

The Turkish Football Federation also posted an image on their Instagram showing players and staff saluting in the dressing room.

Although reports said UEFA will probe the incidents, European football's governing body told ESPN FC it could "not confirm" that because they had not yet received the match official's report from Friday's game.

Meanwhile, the salute and its digital imprint has led to more controversy in the Germany camp, just over a year after Mesut Ozil quit the national team after a heated debate over a picture showing the Arsenal star, Gundogan and Tosun with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

At the weekend, Tosun's post was liked by Germany internationals Gundogan and Can -- an action they quickly amended.

However, that was enough to stir up another debate over Germany national team players with Turkish backgrounds.

"I took the like back when I saw that it was judged to be political," Gundogan said in a statement published in parts by kicker. "Trust me: The last thing I wanted to do is make a political statement after what happened last year."

"What is true is that I was pleased for my former Germany U21 teammate that he scored the winning goal," Gundogan added.

Following the 3-0 win, he doubled down on his explanation and told reporters he had no "political intention" when liking Tosun's post.

Earlier, Can had told Bild that he unintentionally liked the post while scrolling through his timeline, and added he is against any war. Both players were backed by Germany coach Joachim Low, who said postmatch that the likes were "in no case a political statement." He added: "If you know those players, you'll know that they are against war and terror."

Germany general manager Oliver Bierhoff added: "Many players on this world liked that post. And you can't allege that all of them are in favour of war and terror."

Bundesliga 2 club FC St. Pauli, meanwhile, have released Turkish midfielder Cenk Sahin with immediate effect following an internal review. On Friday, the 25-year-old former Turkey Under-21 international voiced sympathies with the Turkish army's military action in an Instagram story.

The club said they made their decision based on the player's "repeated disregard for the club values" but also to "protect the player." They added: "Without any discussion and without any doubt we oppose acts of war. Those and solidarity for them fundamentally contradict the values of the club."

St Pauli sacked a player for supporting it:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/oct/14/st-pauli-cenk-sahin-turkey-syria

Yes, we shouldn't be talking politics here, but simply by ignoring it won't make it go away. Address it clearly in public and directly to the players involved and if they continue to get distracted from football by politics, twitter or other social media or even their social life (ie, Jordan) then fine them heavily.

Neo-nazis popping up everywhere and mass shootings of minorities. Why can't people just accept what they have and get on with each other?

As for Tosun pulling that stunt while women and kids are innocently slaughtered, I've got to say I have no time for him now.

International football means nothing to me. It is a dead concept bringing nothing but sick nationalism and the utterly ludicrous idea that the accident of where you were born might make you superior.

God almighty, look at the bunch of sad specimens marching out of the Bulgaria game. The "master race" indeed. Their anonymous, pathetic Nazi salutes were risable. Just as pathetic and toe curling as the Turks.

Poor Tosun, he will have to remove every mirror in his house.

What Turkey is doing to the Kurds is not excusable. Support of that action is not acceptable. Their military supporting is not fighting for the people of Turkey. They're fighting for the Turkish government to subjugate others for political gain.

That said, in the NBA here in the US, we've seen evidence of how dangerous it is to stand up to the Turkish government, so I wouldn't fault Tosun for not denouncing their actions. Enes Kanter of the Boston Celtics (and several others prior to that) has seen his passport revoked, father thrown in prison, family banned from leaving Turkey, an international warrant issued for his arrest, and so on. It takes more courage than most of us realize to stand up for what's right in that situation and it affects more people than just the person taking action. If Tosun's motivation is to protect his family in Turkey, I don't think it's the right thing to do, personally, but I don't think it's a ridiculous decision either.

The club needs to make a statement, not denouncing Tosun personally, but making it clear that his actions are not aligned with the club's values. If that means parting ways with Tosun without getting a fee for him, so be it. I mean, I don't see him staying past this season anyway, so is the fee we would get worth more than the club's dignity? I think not.

The dickhead of a Bulgarian manager is the only person in the world who didn't hear any racial remarks during the game.

Many of our lads lost their lives in a war based on lies, do we dishonour them when the arseholes who knowingly led us at the time are making a fortune on the international speaking circuit?

Best us keeping out of politics and concentrating on footy and what's best for us and the players... People in glass houses and all that.

I holiday in Turkey a lot and have made some good friends there. The country is riven between those who revere Kemal Ataturk, father of modern Turkey, and those who support Erdogan, who appears intent on turning Turkey into a Sunni version of Iran.

What unites both groups is a fervent national pride. Whilst Kurds live, largely peaceably throughout the country, there has been a conflict with the PKK, Kurdish separatists, in the South East for over 40 years. This conflict has resulted in many thousands of casualties and deaths. Hundreds of Turkish conscripts have died as well as Kurdish civilians.

The Turks tend to view Kurds throughout the region as all wanting the creation of Kurdistan (something Britain promised to help great 100 years ago).

I'm not trying to justify Tosun's actions in the slightest, or to defend Turkey's foreign policy. What I am saying is that things are never that black and white.

World is going to hell on a handcart, that I do believe.

Edorgan is swamp life, there is no doubt, and his action against the Kurds is repugnant. He is rolling that country back to the dark ages.

@Jay
"Neo-nazis popping up everywhere and mass shootings of minorities." You are of course correct – extreme nationalism is on the rise and very worrying but there is also no shortage of Jihadis carrying out mass shooting etc which for some reason cannot or will not get discussed in an adult manner, this is very much as big a problem.

Any and all dogmatic belief systems that makes the protagonists feel they are superior to their fellow human being needs to be stood up to at every turn by any and all enlightened and respectful peacful peoples

Anybody at all who would take a life because of some ideology they hold should be put under the microscopes and held accountable i feel

More recently, slave labour is used to build stadiums in Qatar, Mikhatarian missed the Europa League Final because it's in Azerbaijan, FIFA allow North Korea to ban fans and TV from their game with South Korea, the Anti-Serb Eagle boys get no more than a slap on the wrist. It's a sorry legacy.

There are a great many layers to un-peel in the Turkish players gesture; it could be as simple as "support the troops" or a full-blown endorsement of Erdogan. None of us know, except the players.

It seems a bit unrealistic to expect Tosun not to support his country. I would rather he didn't in this instance but calling for him to be sacked seems a bit shrill.

You don't have to recognize politics in the region to see that this is a clear case of attempted genocide, just like Hitler's invasion of Poland and other dictators' attempts at ethnic cleansing.

Jer,

I think the Jihadi thing is a different matter and much more worrying. Jihadi culture comes from teachings that encourage hatred of the Western world and is more religion-based.

The fascist movements we are seeing all over the world are more nationalistic and divisive within our own cultures.

@Peter
Am no expert but am aware this will the 2nd genocide ( that I am aware of foisted upon the Kurds) by facist Thugs ( Hussein being the other) and coming from a man who spoke to 10s of thousands of Turks in Germany telling them not to assimilate, He has purged decenting journalists in Turkey and is dragging them back to the dark ages as I said previous, thats enough info for me thanks

Also is a football forum so the chance of finding an expert on the complexities of the plight of the Kurd is slim i would suggest

Andy #10, Pat #11 and Peter #21, good posts regarding the complexities here of which we know little. I would just point out that there's a broad expanse of middle ground between out-and-out support of Erdogan's ethnic facism and calling your own troops, in Andy's words, "fascist fuckers." We don't know where Tosun stands on that spectrum, but this certainly wasn't a good look.

I fully agree. I wouldn't cross the road to see an international match.

The whole thing is not helped by Trump and his twitter diplomacy. I also suspect that the Turkish President is cut from the same cloth as Mugabe and others and Turkish nationals both home and abroard have to tread very carefully.

Since 1914 (at least) the whole Balkan / Near East / Middle East has been one big wack-a-mole problem... Princip anyone?

So do they need reminding by high profile players or Managers, who are in the public eye via Television, of the political problems that are affecting that country, or even the World at that particular time?

I think as Andy Crooks suggested and many others have too, that Internationals are nowhere near as popular as they used to be, in fact they are bloody disruptive to the normal season. With so many International Breaks, many at a crucial time when a team has either built momentum or, as in our case, struggling for goals and points, do we really need another hiatus?

Then there is the added possibility of key players being injured whilst on International Duty, which is another problem to deal with, and could well be a nail in the coffin for sides if the season is nearing it's end.

Even the World Cup has lost a lot of its appeal, which thankfully is only once every four years, and while I appreciate it is an honour for a player to represent his National side and gain a 'cap', it is certainly not what it used to be.

Get paid

Imagine Everton are leading the Premier League table (ha.. ha..) and we have a shot at the title for the first time in donkeys years. And Cenk Tosun is our star player (our own Mo Salah, if you like – again, ha.. ha.. ha..) and our title hopes would vanish into thin air if he were to be banned. Hands on hearts, would the folks here calling for him to be banned still maintain their stance in such a (hypothetical) situation? Or would they look the other way?

{By the way, in this particular case, I think I can sympathise with Tosun's stand – he would be risking everything for himself, his family – if he were alone in NOT joining in the salute while all his teammates are doing it. Instead of focusing on individual players, the easy thing for UEFA to do would be to censure the Turkish FA, and dock them for points. In fact, the rules should be that ANY team whose members make a political gesture/statement should be immediately penalised. Now if that means not playing the National Anthems, then so be it.}

I can't say I'm full bottle on the history between these countries but how many think there should be one Ireland or independent Scotland and Wales? May be doing away with national anthems might be a start but wouldn't that lead to ending international matches? Or perhaps we do away with political borders altogether and take up Esperanto?

Politics, and they say they represent the people, or in this case is it the people representing the politicians. The only thing we can be sure of is that a lot more innocent people will lose their lives in these conflicts.

Next thing he'll be wearing a symbol on his jersey in memory of all his comrades who have died in various wars across the month of November.

I find it amazing every year that there are members of the British armed forces walking on to football pitches, being applauded by one and all (except James McClean) as heroes. Yet here we are, some of us, looking for Tosun to be sacked.

Countries not allowing women into stadia. Racism.

I appreciate it's difficult, however, we must try and keep football, and all sports outside of politics. Protection of players and enjoyment of supporters must be the aim.

However, it doesn't help when it's run by the inept and corrupt UEFA, FIFA and national associations.

It's a very bad and even sadder situation but, with Russia, set to intervene, I wonder how much of this was decided between Trump, Putin and Erdogan before this outrage began?

It is never black and white, but this is Tosun's third or fourth time to publicly show his political convictions while being an Everton player. It was his photo with Erdogan (and Ozil and Gungodan) last year which caused huge waves here in Germany eventually leading to Ozil's retirement from international football. But I never saw anything back then from our Club on our player's involvement.

I hope we take a clear and strong stance on mixing politics and football and instead rise above such polarisation of any kind. Football or sport in general can, must and should be the uniting force to keep us all from becoming affected by such small-minded thinking.

The Bulgarian manager "heard nothing". He's lying.

Everton need to demand a full explanation from Cenk Tosun regarding his actions. He needs to clearly justify his "celebratory action" to his employer. Then the club need to make a public statement.

Stephen @3, St. Pauli are a club for whom I have the utmost respect and sincerely believe that Everton should learn everything from.
I said this in My response to "Project Goodison" and the legacy of "God's Acre" when we (unfortunately) leave Mere Green Field.

The utter irony of International Football is that it supposedly draws nations together both as the country themselves and the opposing nations. A friendly encounter allowing and promoting cross cultural exchanges.

Yet, our representatives (fans mostly, but not solely) disgrace us time and again with behaviour that is unrepresentative, and shameful for our nation.
Do our player, coaches and officials denounce them ? No. No they never do.

What you permit, you ultimately promote.

I love Everton and I take real pride in the efforts of EiTC. Great stuff. Our players should take far more LEADERSHIP in EiTC's work. It should be part of their terms of employment.

I find modern footballers "goal celebrations" utterly fucking toe curling. Their contrived pantomime dance routines only serve to illustrate just how removed these overpaid cretins are from real life.

Don't let us be surprised that they eventually start supporting fascism and genocide. We sit by and feast their egos on a weakly basis. We are to blame for creating such "Idols".

The calls from some on here to sack Tosun, I find ridiculous. The world view from the Turkish population is very different from our own. Rightly or wrongly, they see the PKK as a domestic threat and equate the Kurdish forces in Syria with the same threat. They also refuse to believe in the Armenian genocide.

They may be ignorant or misguided but the salutes in the dressing room can be simply taken as support for their brothers in the conflict. This is a country that still has compulsory National Military Service amongst their compatriots. Therefore they are saluting many of their friends and family, and as footballers, they can pay a fee and be exempt from it.

So, with this in mind, as long as he doesn't start saluting in an Everton shirt, it's up to him.

Shaqiri and Xhaka made provocative gestures in the World Cup game between Switzerland and Albania and escaped bans - being handed fines only.

Ozil was publicly reprimanded by the DFB in a strongly worded condemnation which resulted in his retirement. If Tosun faces a ban instead of a fine then we should wonder why some political actions are deemed less provocative than others.

If you are going to impose sanctions, do it across the board on an equal basis, and set the boundary that politics has no place on the football pitch.

If you are going to allow people to show their political leanings then it cannot be one rule for some and one rule for others.

Exactly! This is a football site so it'd be quite something to find anybody informed on all the complexities of the region, and yet there are several posters who feel confident enough in their limited knowledge to call for our player to be sacked on the spot! Utterly ridiculous.

Anyhow, I'm breaking my own cardinal rule of not getting political on a sport site, there are enough footballing things to set one fan at anothers throat (I'm looking at you, Marco Silva).

The Turkish President seems all-controlling. How much of a hand did he have in this? Did he suggest the actions as a way of sending a message to his nation? Erdogan seems like a man you cannot say no to. Events after the recent uprising showed what he's capable of.

There's so much we don't know here and I think it would be foolish to judge. I would hope the club sit down with Tosun and discuss the matter. It certainly does not reflect well on us.

Turkey is a “young” nation and although the country is riven between traditional Ataturk supporters and those embracing Erdogan's programme, people will rally around the flag. Rightly or wrongly.

There is conscription / national service and thousands of service personnel have perished in the conflict with PKK-supporting Kurds. Many just young men called up to the forces.

I do not support the actions of Erdogan either in his domestic policy or his foreign. But I recall the words of a wiser man than me... ”One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter”.

The intricacies of history in that part of the world defies our comprehension. Here's an example.

I have had countless conversations with Turks, old and young, liberal and traditional. The one thing they all clam up about and deny is that a genocide was ever carried out against the Armenians in 1915 in spite of incontrovertible evidence. After hundreds of thousands were shot, hanged or starved, the surviving Armenians were marched to the deserts to the south east. Thousands starved en route. Thousands were preyed upon, robbed and murdered by Kurds.

A final point in my ramblings: Noraid, in the USA, collected funds for IRA during the troubles. The Provos were noble freedom fighters against an imperialist power. Try explaining that to the families of those kids killed in the Birmingham pub bombings.

On a lighter note...

I do wonder though, in our society whether some people are waiting to be offended? I would bet that our own Tim Cahill's boxing routine would these days be construed by some as encouraging violence! I seem to remember forwards scoring goals and shooting imaginary guns.

Rocking imaginary babies after a goal is scored today would be tantamount to encouraging over-enthusiastic crib-rocking. Bebeto watch-out.

And didn't England get fined by FIFA for wearing poppies on their shirts?

Putting aside the considerable question of nationhood and the (often arbitrary) drawing of national boundaries for a moment, lest we forget, the original Olympic games is (wrongly!) believed to have been a four-yearly meeting of Greek city states to pit their finest athletes against each other in which any conflicts or wars were suspended.

Whilst it was often an opportunity for rulers to meet and discuss, to make alliances and resolve issues, there most certainly were conflicts and battles at the games themselves, not least power grab attempts to establish rule over the site to gain the prestige and financial advantages the location brought.

Now many may wish to deny it, but politics impacts on every aspect of our daily lives. Nationhood (and religion) is fundamental in upholding - justifying, even - a country's political policies. Football, the authorities, the players and coaches, we the fans, are not exempt from such political influence.

If UEFA was true to its mandate, it would take issue with the direct intervention of the Bulgarian President who yesterday morning declared the head of the Bulgarian FA should resign. A few hours later he did just that. By UEFA and FIFA's own constitution they clearly state that there should be no government or state interference or influence in the administration of national federations. They do and have suspended many a nation for non-compliance of this statute.

Of course, given the rabid racism of the previous evening, UEFA would be held up to ridicule if they rigorously applied this rule. But it is an example on the 'flexibility' of such rulings and judgements.

Like others in this thread I have also worked in the region. I can honestly say, hand on heart, both the Kurds and Iraqis are the finest, the most friendly, the most generous people I have ever met. And I've travelled to 70+ countries. It is all the more remarkable to me that they are and were so kind to Westerners, given both recent and more distant history and how the West have treated both peoples and their nations.

I will close this post with a couple of observations:

I first learnt the word 'jingoism' during the Falklands War. Unlike the overwhelming majority in the UK at the time, I expressed a deep disquiet at the conflict and saw it as an opportunist war between two political dictators in which the losers would be the winners. And so it proved. It was the beginning of the end of military dictatorships in Latin America. The UK - arguably to this day - continues to pay the price of Thatcherism.

No one and no tabloid waved the flag higher or beat the drum louder than the despicable Kelvin MacKenzie at The Sun. Who remembers the headline 'GOTCHA!' with a picture of the Argentinian boat Belgrano being hit by a missle? Never mind that 1200 lives went down with that boat when it was sailing AWAY from the conflict area.

The 'STICK IT UP YOUR JUNTA' teeshirts the Sun profited from, based on another crass headline. Or reporting the conflict like (ironically, given the topic of this thread) a game of football? 'ENGLAND 6 ARGIES 0' (in reference to targets downed or captured).

Secondly, on the issue of Tosun and his team mates saluting their front line troops. You cannot underestimate the influence of peer pressure, education and media reporting of events.

You can rest assured that the Turkish education system will not offer a balanced and neutral report of the country's acts towards the Armenians or the Kurds. The media will be as jingoistic as MacKenzie's Sun was during the Falklands war. Some of the players will almost certainly have friends and family members serving in the (conscripted) Turkish military. They may even have served time in the military themselves.

The much deeper question that needs challenging to me is not whether it is worthy of an Everton player to do this and whether to cancel his contract with immediate effect, but the more disturbing rise of nationalism and protectionism which has echoes of the rise of facism and nazism in the 1930s which led to global conflict.

This opportunist land grab by Erdogan is a direct result from a brief phone call between himself and the very, very dangerous imbecile in the White House. Against all advice, without consulting with his advisors, Trump casually agreed to withdraw US troops from the region, allowing Turkish tanks to roll in.

Such is the Brave New World in which we live in.

My favorite inflammatory celebration (despite the context with the team) was Robbie Fowler's sniffing the white line. Can you imagine if that happened now? Fowler would have to go on a national "Just say No" tour with Zammo from Grange Hill.

"The real crime here is surely that the Kurds have never been granted nationhood. For that, all the members of the club of nations in New York should shoulder the guilt."

Michael, may I suggest to you that Palestine has a rightful place alongside Kurdish issue, it may actual be a UN reckognised nation already, but it also has suffered an unconscionable occupation in full view and acquiescence of the UN.

In 2003, the ship's captain Hector Bonzo confirmed that General Belgrano had actually been maneuvering, not "sailing away" from the exclusion zone, and had orders to sink "any British ship he could find".

What difference is there between sailing away from the exclusion zone and "manoeuvring away from the exclusion zone"?

Outside of football, life and politics are far more important, since people's lives are more important than 22 blokes kicking a leather sphere.

If I were to start questioning Tosun's actions outside of his actual playing of football, I would probably continue the process logically, and question many other aspects of top-level football that are of very questionable ethics, and I would probably stop watching football altogether.

The current conflict deserves widespread outcry and we should criticise a player who openly supports such an oppressive individual and regime. It is potentially problematic, as others have remarked, to define what political expressions should and should not he allowed on a football pitch. But I think most of us can agree that supporting an authoritarian regime committing human rights atrocities is something to stand against. We wouldnt want an Everton player supporting Nazis after all.

It's bizarre but true. They play the national anthem before anything and everything. I was angrily confronted by a middle aged veteran two weeks ago for "not supporting the troops." It was at a high school marching band contest. My "offense" was not holding my hand on my chest when they played the national anthem before the contest. Seriously. I thought I had done enough simply by standing and staring in the direction of an idolatorous flag. But this guy rushed several eats over to me, slammed his fist on his chest and said something about supporting the troops.

I watch internationals but in private as they bring out the worst in crowds. I watched Ireland v Holland Euro 96 playoff in the Kop at Anfield. Afterwards the train ride back to Manchester was pleasant with Irish fans singing, the Dutch were very magnanimous in victory. Six months later, I was at Wembley and saw England beat Holland 4-1. The train ride back was awful. Skinheads taunting Ducth fans aggressively and relentless renditions of "No Surrender to the IRA." Not sure what that had to do with Holland v England. More perplexing was why the fans were so angry after the team had just won.

... and let's not forget the Robbie (like Carra, Macca, Owen et al) started life as a blue.

I think Macca is still a closet blue. You can hear it in his voice when he is commenting on Everton games.

Some British Nationalism at the highest levels.

The very interesting thing about submarine participation in the Falklands war was the lack of them at the start of it.

British intelligence knew exactly what Argentina was planning before the invasion, American and Chilean intelligence were on our side. Forewarned and with a ringside seat we allowed them to invade.

It would have been ridiculously easy to have had a few submarines waiting in the 170 miles between Argentina and the Falklands, the war could have been stopped before it started and all at Argentina's expense. Or even the verbal threat of this would have stopped Argentina.

Maggie didn't do it though, but what she did do was what Cenk Tosun did, Salute the boys going and coming with the flag flying proudly up above.

I feel sure the benefits of having won a war while going into an upcoming election on a wave of nationalistic euphoria never entered her mind, not even for one second!

Suppose you are right. But he still needs to make sure he doesn't go back further, if he is to haven any chance of recovering his team place.

Everton in the final third seems to be a strikers grave yard, under Silva.

Not to hate or subjugate those who identify with another tribe is the best that can be done... Except of course the RS.

The master makes the rules, so let's hope Silva changes his own set-in-stone system, because goals win games, and his team are just not creating enough chances at the minute.

The UK was the sickman of Europe. This didn't immediately go away when Maggie changed the curtains in No,10. They'd probably of paid them to 'look after' the Falklands. But no, they took without asking, thus giving the still struggling new tory administration a rallying point, which maggie played to its jingo-istic hilt.

My dad was a para and jumped out of a plane over Holland to fight fascism, which is rearing its ugly head again, and when I see young Polish football fans sieg heiling after what the Nazi's done to Poland, I wonder if it was worth the waste of life.

And if you believe that elections in this country are 'free', you need educating. The UK elections are decided by a conglomerate of foreign billionaires, led by an Australian/American who has declared that he has been responsible for every PM since 1979.

You can call it whatever you want but the plain truth is that the Turks found an opportunity and seized it. Baptized their actions war against terrorism and with no-one to oppose them (Europe's reaction just laughable) just started dropping bombs.

Wars I suppose are good for economy, you have to spend some bombs in order to buy some new ones...

In an ideal world sports and politics shouldn't mix, but alas we know better.
For Tosun to salute Erdogan is very poor judgement.
He's bought the nationalistic propaganda.
Kurds are viewed as terroists there, most probably even the women and children...

We'll have to get used to it, the types of Erdogan, Putin & Trump, mad and power-hungry, aren;t going away soon.
Unfortunately.

You should be very proud of your Dad, as I am of mine. Their's really was a very special generation.

My Dad was 13 when his a Father, a senior regional police officer, was taken from their village by the Russians and later executed, along with many military officers, at Katyn. He joined the Polish resistance and fought against both the Russians and Germans. The Russians raided his home one evening and took him, his Mother and siblings and shipped them to an agricultural work camp in Siberia. He escaped and travelled south to Persia, now Iran, where he lied about his age, he was 15, and joined the British army.

Thanks, but I certainly don't need educating about free and fair elections. Of course I am aware of the influence of media magnates, but the fact that Mr Murdoch claims to have been responsible for every PM since 1979 does not make it so.

Dad was transferred to General Anders' Polish 2nd Army after training in Palestine and fought at Monte Cassino. It was the Poles who eventually took the monastery after many brave but unsuccessful attempts by, amongst others, the New Zealanders.

At the end of the war he was in northern Italy and given the choice of a train ride to, by now, Russian controlled Poland or a ship to the UK. Believing all of his family to be dead he chose to come here.

in fact, all except his Father survived the war and eventually made their way back to Poland. In the hope that Dad had managed to get to Persia his Mother wrote many letters addressed to him c/o The British Army, London UK. The Army eventually tracked him down in 1957 and presented him with dozens of letters from his Mother.

Unfortunately he never saw her again but his Sister and her daughters visited, separately, in the 1970s and 1980s. By the time the wall fell and Dad decided that he would want to visit Poland he was too ill to do so.

He died in 2004, a proud Pole but equally proud of his British citizenship.

And I'm sure you're aware of this quote from Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe: "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Every Sun reader would tell you we're free, but what free country would have foodbanks and homelessness while the taxpayers fund tax-dodging billionaires?

Defenders of communism often say that we haven't had ‘proper communism' anywhere in the world and therefore we can't say that communism hasn't worked. I call bullshit. Wherever it has been tried, it has failed.

Being a ‘free country' doesn't mean that everything is perfect. Freedom and rights comes with responsibilities, including the responsibility to look after and support yourself and your family, not relying on the state to support your laziness and fecklessness.

Lady Thatcher was spot on if you read ‘no such thing as society' in context of the whole speech.