What are you made of?

Pickford, Sidibe, Keane, Mina, Baines, Richarlson, Davies, Holgate, Gordon, Kean, Calvert Lewin. Subs Lossl, Coleman, Gibson, Delph, Bernard, Niasse and Tosun. I'm assuming the ineffective Iwobi is still injured.

I do not wish to see Siggy, Schneids, or Walcott in a Blue Shirt ever again. I would say let them train with the kids but that's obviously beyond them now. Leave Digne out for a couple of games it may do him some good.

In this transfer window we need to bring in a CB, 2 midfielders and a Forward. Given the money situation, something else we seem to have cocked up, they will almost certainly be loans, unless by some miracle we get half decent offers for the deadwood.

Row

An old term comes to mind...LMF - Lack of Moral Fibre.

Koeman; Sigurdssen, £45M. Schneiderlin, £29M.

Allardyce; Walcott £30M. Tosun, £25M

Brands; Kean, £30M.

£150+M or half a team, that if they never kicked a ball again, we wouldn't miss them.

You can't go on giving multiple 'last chances'. So I can see Davies and least 2 more kids in the starting 11. Kean might just make the bench, but I doubt the rest will...or is that a step too far for Ancelotti?

One thing in our favour is Brighton might be over confident.

Pickford (kicking aside) played well.
Sidibé was shocking - but deserves some respect for acknowledging the fans.
Mina and Holgate didn't do bad defensively (it was only their passing about that was poor)
Richarlison was poor but at least tried
Calvert-Lewin was ok when he got the service.

There's some truth in that argument. I posted on another thread that Ancelotti must take his share of the blame for the debacle; firstly for his team selection and secondly for the way the side was set up and his subsequent failure to change the shape and tactics.

The subs were warming up straight after the second half kick off but no changes were made for about 20 minutes and no change was made in the way we played.

As late as the 89th minute we were still fannying about trying to work the ball across the back line when the crowd was screaming for them to get it down the other end.

That must be down to the manager.

As for Digne, he seems to be missing Bernard in front of him but is that because he isn't good enough, Bernard puts a lot more in or the opposition noted that Everton, under Silva, liked to attack down that flank so previously avoided playing out through that side until Traore was it and/or a Watford player showed how Digne could quite easily be brushed aside.

The only other consideration, hinted at by John #7, is that they followed the manager's instructions to the letter but nothing more, the not my fault syndrome, without any thought as to if that was giving the club and fans their monies worth.

To me it is now a matter of hoping Ancellotti can turn these players around or if we would be better off playing those kids who will at least put the effort in. I know which path I'd prefer.

This season is all about staying in the Premier league, and planning for next season, expecting anything else from this squad is just fanciful. After Sundays game Ancelotti said our build up was to slow in the 2nd half, something that Silva said repeatedly. I cant understand why Silva having identified a problem didnt rectify it, but I am sure Ancelotti certainly will.

When things are going badly the cry from some supporters is play the kids, but the reason clubs in trouble don't play the kids is this is not the environment to bring young players into a side. You introduce them gradually and let them develop, bring kids into this side and it might destroy their confidence forever.

Alot of people, when we bought Siggy in for a huge fee and on big wages, came up with the repeating argument: "WHO CARES, ITS NOT OUR MONEY!!"

Well this is what you get. If you overspend on players in their late twenties who do not then excel then it becomes almost impossible to get rid of them; partially because no-one can match their wages and partially because the money men don't want to take a huge hit on transfer value.

For me the biggest issue is midfield. If you have two slow players like Sigurdsson and Schneiderlin who do not show for the ball and seldom move it forwards then the whole team lacks people to pass to. Holgate and Mina are both very capable passing the ball out but their job is made impossible if they have a statuesque midfield in front of them, scared of receiving the ball and simply hitting it straight back to them.

Sigurdsson, Schneiderlin, Davies and Delph. I don't believe any combination of this 4 constitutes a top 7 team midfield. Gomes is a little (but not alot) better. Gbamin is untried but appears to have qualities we very sorely miss ie athleticism and dynamism.

We have missed Gana Gueye more than even his biggest fans could have imagined and desperately need to find a central midfield that can get around the pitch, find space and do the basics well.

There's no distractions and no fatigue issues. It's time to prove to themselves and us they are good enough. Most importantly the teams competing for that spot are often as poor as we can be , very inconsistent too , it's wide open and achievable.

On a slightly different note, I watched Leeds Utd against Arsenal on Monday. They were unlucky in defeat but the sharpness, aggression and workrate from them was fantastic, Bielsa has transformed that team. Motivated and fighting to the limits of their capabilities. Leeds were undone by luck and a marginal differential in class but attitude-wise were everything we need to be.

If Ancelotti can get a Bielsa type attitude permeating our team we will be a different proposition. If not watch out, Leeds will be doing the double over us next season.

So, in order for it to work we need a top class coach to do the heavy lifting for Carlo. As Brian #16 said Carlo has had little time to effect changes on the training pitch. But Carlo Ancelotti is not the type of manager who does effect changes on the training pitch. He's usually the one stood to the side overseeing all but leaving it to a top class coach, such as Paul Clement and Hermann Gerland at Bayern, or Paul Clement and Zidane (who Ancelotti brought into the first team) at Real Madrid. I cannot work out who was the main coaches at Napoli and so I suspect that it was him and his son.

This is in fact how it is playing out at Everton. You see Ancelotti, Ancelotti junior and Duncan Ferguson running the sessions. Sorry, but we need better than that. Sure Davide might have lots of ideas ingrained into him by his dad, he might have been to all the coaching seminars and picked up loads of tips, but is he really now a first class coach?

Does Carlo himself keep up to date with the latest innovations and thinking so he can stay ahead of the game? He's the same age as the innovative Sarri, so it's nothing to do with age and everything to energy. Sarri is now in the peak of his career, this is what he has aimed for his entire life and he is singularly focused on it. Carlo Ancelotti has been at the top for over 20 years. Does he have the same energy, not on the touchline in game, but on the training pitch. In the past, he has clearly thought that perhaps he doesn't and taken a hands-off approach and got young coaches in with big ideas and let them do it all. This approach was the same as the one that brought trophy after trophy to Carrington for Alex Ferguson.

But it seems now, after years of taking the Alex Ferguson approach, that Carlo Ancelotti thinks he can step back in as a hands on coach. and lets make no mistake about it, this team does not need to maintain fitness and benefit from the wise old tactical fox on the sidelines, they need intensive hands on coaching to eradicate so many flaws that we see from one game to the next.

Now, I concede that Carlo Ancelotti has every right to think that he can be just that coach. If he keeps up to date, puts the hours in, and has the energy for it, then fine. In my experience, people who have been at the top of their profession like Carlo, for so long, are able to stay at the top when they utilise younger more energetic people to do the daily grind and instead leave the intense match day, with the judgement calls that 20 years experience gives him such an advantage, to the man himself.

I hope we do bring someone in, and someone in soon, otherwise lets hope that one of the reasons that Carlo took this job is that he fancied a big change from what he has been used to, and this change was to get his hands dirty with the coaching side of things.

Saturday should be viewed as a new beginning and I hope the fans get behind the team, not easy I know, in the weeks ahead.

More of a question will be , Has Ancelotti got the motivation for the job? He has chosen a difficult path and the alternatives to him failing are sunny european jobs beachside villas and alfreso seafood dinners overlooking the med.

Has he got the motivation and desire to get his hands dirty making Everton a success?

When Ancellotti took over the players have ‘ downed tools ‘ and disrespected the fans with their performances. Their only reward can be to sit on the bench or find another club.

Aside from this * Sam 17 is correct. The quality of the midfield is poor. They are unorganised, slow and have little quality. I believe the defenders aside from Coleman can improve with coaching, and in Richarlison and Calvert Lewin we have goals, so I return to the midfield as a rebuild job.

I've spoken, a lot, about my disdain for players like Walcott, Iwobi, Keane etc... players who are talented but weak mentally and physically. But for me the biggest disappointments have been Sigurdsson and Schneiderlin. Both were superb at former clubs Swansea and Southampton, respectively, but so so average for Everton.

I continue to support the likes of Pickford, Holgate, Digne, Davies, Richarlison, DCL, Bernard, Kean etc... as I think with proper coaching (not 1-2 days a week) they will form the basis of a very good team.

Summer will define us for a generation to come. We either make the right signings, and offload the deadweight, or we face another 30 years in the wilderness, so god help us.

Secondly I think this article, while well written is moot because there is NO redemption for most involved in “that” derby. To lose that game in the manner they did was such a severe and capital crime that the likes of sigurdsson, schneiderlin, Walcott, Delph will never have the support from a lot of us again. They need to be moved on even if it's at a sizeable loss.

It is an utter delusion to think these players will ever have the mentality and ability to get us into the top 6. And even if they did I wouldn't forgive them for Sunday. It's over for them at Everton and rightly so.

It makes me think, complete supposition on my part, that this is why Silva failed. I heard Curtis Davies, among others, talk very highly of Marco Silva in the post mortem after he was sacked. His only take on why it went wrong as that at Hull they were ready to do whatever Silva asked as they were dead and buried and had nothing to lose. So if Marco Silva wanted to do a throw-in 35 times and then said, right now from the other side, the players did it. And this actually happened. Such was Silva's eye for detail.

Curtis Davies had no insight into what happened on the training pitch at Finch Farm, but he could only concede that perhaps the Everton players were not as willing as he and his teammates were at Hull, that Everton players must not have bought in.

So here we are, being told that the Senior players are blaming the tactics and not themselves. The tactics of a 3 time Champions League Winner, and not themselves. It's like they do not realise that going through the motions can make perfect tactics fail. They have to give everything to make tactics succeed.

And that's just it. This is what I have seen all season long. They go around where they are meant to, they run about like they are meant to, the pass in the general directions for players like they are meant to, but it never looked as smooth as it should. The ball never zipped about, it was always laboured. The runs were not disguised like they should have been, the passing lacked conviction, the pressing lacked conviction, the efforts to make tackles when we lost possession were half-hearted.

These players sold their last manager down the river. I said about the passing around the back being down to the players, and not Ancelotti. This is another example of "it's not me it's the tactics". Scared football I like to call it. I saw this under Martinez, under Koeman, under even Allardyce, and under Silva. I think Darren Hinds called it Zombie football, which is a great description. It's football without thinking.

If the right back passes to the right centre-back, who stands still and waits for the ball to come to him, which trickles to a halt as it reaches him, then he passes sideways to the left centre-back and again it trickles to a halt as it reaches him. He then puts his foot on the ball and looks up and around, and then hits another slow pass to the left back. Do you really think ANY of our managers have ever coached our team to do this? The ball is meant to zip from one side to the other. Silva loved to switch play, his teams always did it, he would get the deep lying midfielder who just won a tackle to ping it to the left winger, who would then be swarmed and would instead hit a full length cross field pass to the opposite winger, beating the press and he would then charge into the box for the shot or to play in the striker. We saw this loads of times for Watford when they were doing well, not just at the clubs where he had success. But yet, it's like Silva thought screw that, I am going to coach them to pass the ball slowly around the back and let the opposition recover shape.

Ancelotti will not stand for this. Silva lacked the personality or the reputation to win that battle with his players. They cannot with Ancelotti. It seems like he has told Moshiri to "bin off" Sigurdsson when it seemed like Moshiri was telling Silva to play him, something like "you're meant to be a top coach, coach him, I spent a fortune on him and you're here to make him effective". Ancelotti has the gravitas that he can just say Sigurdsson is crap. He passed to Jordan Pickford more than our front two in the Derby Debacle, which tells you everything you need to know about him in that game.

These players have got away with too much, for too long. Hopefully Ancelotti can get the rotten apples out of the club. There is still a good team in there, if they can only cut the poisonous parts off, and bring some quality replacements in.

How do you feel about those players, whom spoke out blaming the tactics never play for the club again?

Because the faults that I saw were pretty basic and not at all tactical.

It was a collection of cowards who took to the pitch in the second half. Scared and spineless.

Men being bullied by teenagers. Crippled with fear.

It was an absolute disgrace and I am at a loss as to how it can be explained.

We have gone backwards in the last two games. With any bunch of players a manager must recognise their limitations and organise them accordingly. Duncan did that by keeping things simple; consigning the short goal kick tactic to the dustbin being one obvious example. That continued in Ancelotti's first two games before he had much opportunity to work with the players.

Sunday's performance suggested the players have returned to the befuddled, confused state they were in before Duncan took charge.

Now unlike Steve Ferns I don't know how hands on Ancelotti is on the training ground but you don't win as much as he has without your message getting through to players. As Steve says Alex Ferguson changed his head coach every couple of years, because he realized that when you have been working with a group of players for a number of years they have heard everything before. So he brought in coaches who would no doubt be preaching the same thing but said in a slightly different way. I am sure Ancelotti will asses his coaching team and if he thinks it needs some additions he will make them.

But come on lads we need to cut him some slack, this isn't a manager who had previously got his team relegated like Martinez and Silva, or someone who had eyes on the Barca job, or heaven forbid an Allardyce style manager. This is a man who has won more Champions league trophies than anyone at present managing in the Premier league.

Now unlike Steve Ferns I don't know how hands on Ancelotti is on the training ground but you don't win as much as he has without your message getting through to players. As Steve says Alex Ferguson changed his head coach every couple of years, because he realized that when you have been working with a group of players for a number of years they have heard everything before. So he brought in coaches who would no doubt be preaching the same thing but said in a slightly different way. I am sure Ancelotti will asses his coaching team and if he thinks it needs some additions he will make them.

But come on lads we need to cut him some slack, this isn't a manager who had previously got his team relegated like Martinez and Silva, or someone who had eyes on the Barca job, or heaven forbid an Allardyce style manager. This is a man who has won more Champions league trophies than anyone at present managing in the Premier league.

Coaching is not Ancelotti's strong suit historically and thats why I would have preferred Arteta. Though obviously Silva was very much a coaching manager and that did not work out.

Some days I honestly think we could pull Klopp or Guardiola in and They'd struggle to get a tune out of us. It's not that the players are awful (though they're not great) but something just seems off. Is it just lack of confidence? Does it come from higher up the ladder (Moshiri, Kenwright)? Perhaps fitness has something to do with it. I know we covered alot of ground under Silva but the players often seemed a bit knackered. Perhaps thats more of a confidence, head down issue. All sort of problems!

I think Moyes had a very disciplined and regimented setup at Finch Farm, then in came Martinez and he changed it (for the worse) and made it much more relaxed. This was great the first season as the players were still disciplined and regimented from the Moyes days and it took a while, and personnel change, for things to go soft.

We know Koeman then made significant training ground changes, erecting the fence, and making training start an hour early and finish two hours earlier so he could go play golf in the afternoons.

Only someone who is at Finch Farm on a daily basis can truly comment on what it's like there. But everything I have heard is about how soft it is there. Everything is nicey-nicey. Hence Duncan Ferguson not being allowed to tear a strip off the players.

And to go back to was it Ancelotti's tactics or was it the players, then why would Duncan Ferguson have been wanting to tear a strip off them it was Carlo's fault? I know who I blame for Sunday, and it was not the manager.

And it shows how pathetic they are. The misplaced passing, the lack of closing down, poor first control, and an absence of any intensity whatsoever are what cause the humiliation of Sunday.

The starting line up, and bench, on Saturday will speak volumes.

Carlo said after ‘The Disaster' that he'd now have time (a week) to work with this bunch for a few days to start getting his ideas through their thick skulls.

So for the embryonic “Ancellotti out” brigade at least give the man a week or two before you start building the gallows.

This was the same players who a couple of days ago were saying how Ancelotti had made some things simpler and easier to understand, now they want to blame the manager for his tactics. Also I would like to ask these players well what did he fundamentally from the first half when we could have scored 4 goals, to the 2nd half were we didnt have a shot on target. Couldnt possibly blame the players for that can you ?

Oh how we miss Gana.

Wanted, a midfield. Apply within.

We all know the players will include Sigurdsson and Schniederlin. Going off Fabian Delph's misguided interactions with fans on social media, I would throw him in there too. Perhaps he did not say too much that you could say was wrong, but it was extremely ill-advised, and you have to query how he can properly represent our fans on the pitch. And that's the point these guys seem to miss. That's what they are doing, representing us. Which is why, I always want the representatives to include as many players from Liverpool, Merseyside or England as possible.

Anyway, back to the changes, if you bin off S & S, then you have to pick from the following:
- Delph - is he ever fit, what about the social media stuff, was he not also to blame as he was in fact on the pitch (not Sigurdsson) when RS scored
- Davies - knee has been more and more heavily strapped with each game and his performances have suffered as a result
- Gbamin - injured
- Gomes - injured
- Baningime - injured
- Adeniran - played wide midfield these days
- Iversen - not long back from bad injury but not impressing
- Onyango - only 16 and looked lost in last few games for u23s
- Markelo - tends to play wide or up top these days

So who exactly comes in to shake things up? I expect Davies will declare himself fit. So of all of the above, I would probably select Delph to play with him as he is slightly more mobile than S & S, and has a better range of passing from deep. I hope Gordon might play against Brighton as it would give the crowd a lift and Walcott was so bad in the second half that he needs dropping. I think we should still go with the 343 formation as that would give Gordon support as the right forward and have less responsibility defensively with Sidibe and Coleman down that side too. He is also likely to come inside and can drop into the middle as well.

I would say that this week is the first week that Carlo Ancelotti has had to coach the team.

Do people on here moan, just for moaning sake? "Listen to me, I know everything" when in fact those those constantly moan know Fuck All.

Certainly many of us were concerned to see that our new man had seemed to re-introduce the 'play out from the back' approach that had been such a failure under previous managers. Truth is our lot aren't up to it and if persisted with it will soon see a decline towards the danger spots Moshiri is paying him a king's ransom to avoid.

Like many others, I suspect the new manager is already rueing his decision to take on a challenge like none other he has faced since early days in management. In his favour is that just like Big Sam, his only immediate challenge is to see us maintain Premier status as we prepare for the Usmanov financed dockland project. My view is that he will do that with ease as long as he cuts out the so-called pretty stuff although he will already have learned it will be in spite of the flotsam and jetsam he has to do it with !

We've all played football and if it's not working on the pitch a captain or a leader adapts the play accordingly! No more chances for many of these cowardly players!

100% behind the manager we should be! Let the clear out begin !!

There is no where to go, Ancelotti is it. I support him 100%, but I would feel a lot better about it if he brought in a coach of renown, like Paul Clement.

I think the answer has to be lemon jelly, if Sunday's embarrassing defeat is anything to go by. I am not going to laboriously go through each player, and either pick up on their good points, if there are any there in the first place, or denigrate them.

Having said that we can't continue with the main culprits, and gradually build on what we have, and if the remaining ' Last Chance Salooners ' continue to show LMF, and are bereft of improving the team, they can also go.

I have generally believed that we had a nucleus of a good side, and with a couple of astute additions we could start to show signs of being the real deal. It's down to the survivors of the inevitable cull, to show that they have changed, had a backbone implant, or silicon/botox injection, and vow never to repeat those acts of cowardice.

We have to trust Don Carlo. He's one of the greatest managers of all time. He's up there with Guttman, Herrera, Santana, Michels, Paisley (yes, I know), Ferguson, Mourinho, Guardiola etc.

If Carlo can't turn us around can the last one to leave please turn the lights off? This is last chance saloon people. So get behind Ancellotti and fucking pray!!

I know you go away with the team, I only go to the home games now, so what are the lads who go away saying about Ancelotti. I agree with you if appointing Ancelotti fails I don't know how this club will recover. I read this morning that Abramovich has paid £100 million in compensation to managers since he took control of Chelsea, I think if Moshiri gets rid of Ancelotti within 2 years he will have paid out about £40 million in compensation in 6 years. The big difference is that most of the time Abramovich still appointed managers who won trophies, so far under Moshiri despite him spending a fortune on redundancy packages he hasnt been able to replicate what Abramovich has done at Chelsea.

But this was the Koeman era, and it seemed a fanciful idea to get this American guy in with no knowledge of football. He was quickly binned off during the Koeman era. Silva or Brands then brought in Bruno Mendes from Benfica. It was probably Silva as he left with Silva, but Silva had never worked with him before. Mendes was the brains behind what was dubbed "Benfica Lab" which was supposedly the most innovative approach to fitness and injury prevention in football. It was a holistic approach that was meant to encompass the players entire lives, nutrition, sleep, off the field activities and make sure they were in tip-top shape. That we had a number of injuries and that he left with Silva tells me that Brands was not too impressed.

Instead we now have Francesco Mauri as fitness coach. Carlo Ancelotti worked with Giovanni Mauri at every club he coached at up to and including Bayern Munich. At Bayern Francesco Mauri joined the setup. You may have noticed the surname is the same, well that's because Francesco is the son of Giovanni. Giovanni retired after Ancelotti left Bayern. The criticisms of Ancelotti at Bayern were really criticisms of Giovanni and this must have led to him retiring. Carlo Ancelotti then appointed Francesco Mauri as his fitness coach at Napoli and he has brought him to Everton.

No idea if Francesco is any good or not, but Carlo obviously rates him enough to give him his Dad's old job. He has all the relevant coaching credentials and he has a degree in Sports Science.

We all have the right to express our genuine feelings on TW, and many say things in the heat of the moment, or the aftermath of a defeat, which they later regret, and in most cases they apologise accordingly.

On the other hand there appears to be a few, albeit and thankfully in the minority, seem to relish in being derogatory and harbingers of doom, before an event has even happened.

As far as Carlo Ancelotti is concerned, the man's CV speaks for itself, and if he can't turn things around, there is something drastically wrong with our Club. Apart from the one big problem most are aware of anyway!

If the same happens under Ancelotti then these players will need to be called out and held accountable. We need to shine a spotlight on the players now not the manager and tactics.

I do genuinely worry that Richarlison may have to be sold to fund the rebuilding of the midfield.

Ancelotti is the star now. He's the biggest name at Everton. He's the one that Moshiri needs to keep happy, not Sigurdsson. So if it means taking a massive hit on Schneiderlin and Sigurdsson (if they are indeed the bad apples that need to be out of the dressing room for things to improve) then Moshiri has little choice.

So perhaps, this is in fact what Everton needs most right now. The Big Man for the Big Decisions. No one can question him. Especially the tactics:
"Sorry Gylfi, you think my tactics are wrong? Can you tell me what trophies you have won, and then I can defer to your expert knowledge".

Even players with less talent are worth more to teams (at every level) due to their performance levels being consistently up there.

Our problem, in literally every department, is exactly that, a lack of consistency. We have players who have the ability, they just don't produce the performance level required in every game. Theo Walcott is a prime example of this - shows flashes of brilliance, has one good game in about 10 (pick a number in truth) and the rest of the time is bang average/awful - ask any Arsenal supporter. Iwobi is the same - and sold by the same club, for the same reason.

If you were to list every player we have, you could write 'inconsistent' next to every single name, without fail. Tom Davies shows consistency in his work rate, and application. He's the exception, not the rule.

This is the reason we've had the same shit performances under many different managers, in my view.

By that I mean, the dice are completely loaded in their favour, once they have a lucrative contract, they can basically sit back, and are made for life.

What other profession offers such generous terms, where if the individual simply, in a clever way downs tools, he doesn't get selected but still gets paid, to the end of the contract.

We all like to enjoy some sort of 'job security' but most (who are not in football related jobs) are on short-term contracts, which get renewed or not, after a specified term, Doctors, Teachers etc.

Daniel@ 56, I dare say you may be right about Silva being forward thinking, but personally I didn't rate him at all. (There's probably a brick with SF on it headed my way :-))

The main reason he got the sack, was his stubbornness, arrogance, lack of leadership and total resistance to try anything different.

This is also just my opinion, but I think he sent out a team last Sunday believing he was going to face a far stronger RS team than he did. Why would he have played Sigurdsson and Schneiderlin if he had known the RS team beforehand? Ancelotti has a good record against the RS and knows how to set up against them accordingly. If that was the case, then I know you cannot change your starting eleven once the team sheets are in, but I guess he could have made early substitutions to remove either Sigurdsson or Schneiderlin.

It's all water under the bridge now, and I'm 100% certain Carlo will not be making many more mistakes in the future.

At least Siggy has on occasion produced something scored goals and orchestrated play. (not recently I admit)

I can recall Schneiderlin having one decent game, in the time he has been with us, the 4-0 game against City, and that was probably because they all gelled on that day. What has he done since?

I like Lyndon's idea of some kind of acknowledgement of the display. It could be as he suggested, or it could be a statement from Carlo to the effect “We have had a week of training and discussions, we move on, but the staff and players take collective responsibility for Sunday and apologise for it”. It would be an act of leadership on his part.

We have just appointed one of the great names in world football as our manager. I was taken aback by the passing around at the back against City, I was horrified by it against the rs, but I'm not going to criticise the man. He knows a great deal more about football than us, I suggest and hope we give him great support, as the consequences of him failing would be disastrous.

Rob@62: It's possible that Ancelotti had a fair idea that Klopp would field a very weak side, as he did against Villa in the league, and knowing that the FA Cup just isn't taken so seriously anymore. He might also have had a fair idea that Everton would screw up as usual despite the weak opposition, or at least that there was a very good chance of it given our renowned mental fragility. In this case, the 'not unexpected' outcome of defeat against a very inexperienced side would provide Ancelotti with the perfect starting basis for quickly getting rid of players who are not in his plans. It's only a thought, but Ancelotti is no doubt a wise old owl and nobody's fool.

They where along the lines of if you can't get motivated for a local Derby game then you shouldn't be a professional footballer.

How many of our lads where up for the game on Sunday?

I was well rewarded. Oh for footballers at Everton who showed the obdurance, the belligerence, the courage and the ability to stand up in adversity and key moments in the match as the likes of Anderson, Sibley and the genius that is Ben Stokes did for England.

It was far more rewarding and uplifting than wading through the plethora of articles and posts since Sunday here on TW which, quite justifiably, are scathing of the team. I didn't need to feel even more despondent by reading reams of doom-filled messages.

Like Dave Abrahams in the match-day thread who first described Sunday's defeat as the most shameful in the club's 142 year history, that loss cut deeper than any other I have experienced on my watch.

Duncan Ferguson in his brief 4 game tenure immediately re-connected the club, the team, the players with the fanbase again. Carlo Ancelotti continued the good feel factor with two victories, an expected defeat away to City but a catastrophic loss to the Red's kindergarten team.

The abysmal second half no-show completely torpedoed the growing 'good feel' factor the supporters were feeling following Silva's demise. Now, their favour must be won over anew. The mood of the Goodison crowd and their reception for the team this weekend is going to be an interesting watch.

It's not going to be a quick fix.

It is one thing, as many have done, to scream on a fans' forum 'x, y and z should never wear the shirt again'. As Lyndon expresses, given our current resources, that is logistically impossible. Ancelotti doesn't have that many alternatives available to him to do just that.

So, deep breath time.

Carlo Ancelotti was appointed on Saturday 21 December, the day of Dunc's final game v Arsenal. We played 'them' on Sunday 5 December. In the 15 days between his appointment and that game we played 4 matches. Throw in the downtime for Xmas and New Year and Carlo has had virtually zero time to work with the squad beyond preparing them for the next game.

Even so, he affected changes to the playing style Duncan had introduced. Playing out from the back was re-introduced. The defensive line was higher, allowing the opposition little space to attack in behind or risk being caught offside. Quicker transition through midfield to attack was evident. The main striker was supported, rather than isolated. We created more chances and had more shots on goal.

Even the defeat at City was not as forlorn as some paint it. We comfortably held them at arm's length in the first half, but the transition forward was not getting onto their backline quick enough. Two defensive errors contributed to give them a two-goal cushion. Ancelotti was not passive in his substitutions. We pulled a goal back and were pushing for an equaliser until the final whistle.

The players spoke positively of the clear and simple instructions Ancelotti had given them which benefitted individuals and the team. And then Sunday happened.

Carlo now has clear water in front of him until the end of the season. 17 games in 130 days. A full week (and more) to prepare between each game.

Moshiri has clearly fully committed to Ancelotti by giving him a four and a half year contract. Brands is cemented into the set-up as Director of Football and, unusually, a place on the board.

On Brands, some people tend to focus on what he hasn't done. Get a centre forward, midfield dynamo, a centre back, rather than what he has done. Sign some good players, but equally necessary and important, clear away an awful lot of deadwood that was not of his making (a task still not complete), which in turn continues to hinder our options in the transfer market.

Like it or not - and clearly, some don't like it - but Carlo Ancelotti and Marcel Brands are contracted long-term to oversee the transformation of Everton.

For that reason alone, as an Evertonian, I have to hope and believe that they get it right. Because if the 'I-told-youists' prevail, we are fooked!

I was writing my post @ 70 in which I referenced Ben Stokes (and others) as typical of the attitude I want to see more of from Everton players, so hadn't seen your post.

I along with others have been saying for years, we have signed some talented footballers in recent times. Few, if any, had sufficient nark in them, the belligerence or determination to put their hand up and say:

"Fer fook's sake! Give me the ball and I'LL win the game on me own!"

Absolutely paramount in future new signings for the club is that they are driven manic winners, willing to kick their own grandmothers into touch and slide through the back of their three-year-old child to win the ball.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/marcel-brands-faces-angry-everton-fans-looking-to-confront-players-at-training-ground-nlc0wtsjt

The sale of Williams, for a measly 1million, has come back to bite us. He may not be world-class, but he'd sure be of more use than S&S.

Whatever came of Ryan Ledson? He was the next big thing before we flogged him to Oxford.

When you see the likes of Lundstrom and Duffy thriving in the PL, maybe we could look back to some of our previous academy products.

There is some quality in the Championship, surely better than what we have now. Brendford, Leeds, QPR, WBH, all got quality midfielders we should be in for them.

Maybe more thought should be given to how contracts are structured re. playing time/wins etc but I think that this is already the case. The huge amounts being paid are often the basic with other additions on top. Players/agents hold all the power and I cant see a way out other than better negotiating and better personal profiling to try and get some with a winning mentality. Re. the negotiating the average salary of a Prem player is now £3m but our standard model appears to be pay circa £25M and then £100K+ per week. We're a soft touch.

We mostly seemed to come into the game as they tired and their work rate slowed, so I hoped that the second half would be a different story, we just had to up our work rate in the face of an increasingly tiring opponent - assuming that they would tire of course.

I have to confess I too gave up shortly after half time and switched off. Just when we needed to step up we stepped down. Even then we were only beaten by a great shot from outside the area - was it a young Ronnie Whelan who scored a similar goal against us in the '80s?

1. We need a midfield engine room we can rely on to push back
2. We need to play as a team
3. We need a solution to why we don't pass & move well enough
4. In time we need to be pressing like those young lads can, credit where it is due. Every man was challenging or blocking all available passes.

Then we can start talking about expensive marquee signings

There's nothing ground breaking there. It's lots of effort and repetitive movements to create "spontaneous" passages of play. Here's a video of Bielsa coaching the coaches: Link

This video shows you passages of play by his team (then Marseille) and then shows drills that were run to make this happen. It's because of the likes of Bielsa that I wanted a hungry young coach with similar ideas. Who will run these kind of drills over and over.

Here's some more links to other videos, not sure if they still work as they are from 2013 when I campaigned for Bielsa to get the job ahead of Martinez. If only that had happened eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1hTMAy5duE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTXeIAcwWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJJZPDjHS_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQczQlipuvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWWYPGNTIpM
— One for the Spanish speakers - but listen to tone - here the great man is speaking to Bilbao after they have just lost finals, but there is no cup throwing or blow ups and he is able to address them in a way to build them back up and so get back out there. (Or so I'm told by a Spanish speaker!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lJ8SUGhF3I — Typical one hour press conference - the great man never speaks to the press outside of press conferences and so never shys away from them, instead he will sit there and field every last question even if he has to sit there for 4 hours. He will even answer questions in depth from the most minuscule of papers.

That can happen with players. They feel they need live up to the transfer fee, rather than to the football on the pitch. This is especially the case after they are 27, with family commitments and life after footbal! becomes within sight. Their contract rather than the football, becomes more valuable.

The cherry on top was Delph mocking and calling a supporter a gobshite on social media. The Daily Star have published the screen shots today. The guys been here 5 minutes and seems to have developed an attitude like Samual Eto'o after winning a couple of trophies at City. I never want to see him, Sigurdsson or Schneiderlin again. All three are shithouses as far as I'm concerned

Clearly tactics are to blame. Same problem with Koeman who's been a disaster with the Netherlands. Carlo has never won anything. Not like Silva had any success in Greece or Allardyce ever had teams punching about their weight. Players like Schneid and Sig had individual and team medals popping out their ears until they were unlucky enough to work with these terrible coaches.

Essentially the previous managers have needed those players more than the players needed them.

One thing is clear. We have a decorated, well credentialed manager, not one player in that side comes close to him as a player let alone as a coach. Ancelotti is not an authoritarian, so their ability and character is what's left. It's there for all to see. Ancellotti clearly has enough of a reputation to manage upwards, so you would think time has run out for those players?

Jesus. I thought we'd made a smart move when signing him in the summer.

But my oh my, and more than anything, it shows how thick he is

a) to respond in that manner

b) the number of errors, I mean he uses 'where' to say 'where fuming'. He also says 'your a disgrace' and 'your better' - two times the same mistake.

I mean jesus. Shit at playing football. Shit English. Woeful communication skills. Yet makes 100k a week.

Fran #96, those misspellings are not necessarily a sign of of poor English. When you talk-respond instead of typing your answer, the phone will frequently transcribe "you're" as "your". My iPhone does it all the time and I have to constantly go back and correct it.

Derek #63, Schneiderlin in fact had a string of very fine games in the spring of '17 -- best player in the club for about a 10-game stretch. Went into the shithole subsequently and never came out. And you're right, it's just plain wrong to categorize him with Siggy, who at least gives maximum effort every minute he's out there. Schneids' jersey doesn't even need washing, unless he falls over for some reason.

Derek, I posted after one of the game's last season that for some reason I'd closely watched where Schneids positioned himself in relation to the ball when we were in possession in that game. For most of the game he actually positioned himself with an opposition player between him and the ball so that a pass to him was never on. At first I thought it was just coincidence or whatever but the more I watched the more it confirmed my view that he was hiding,

A disgrace to the badge.

What makes this defeat sickening is that a couple of weeks before this group of players had run Chelsea ragged to a defeat. We have to hope that no professional would go out with a mindset that this game is going to be easy, and they don't have to put a lot of effort into the game, but it seems that we have some so called professionals who do, and it spreads through the rest of the team.

The major problem it seems is, we may now have the finances to bring in some new players, but we have a real problem in getting rid of some players that do not perform to the standard that the fees and wages they are paid demands better performances and attitudes from them.

All the more reason to give Baines a couple of games.

Maybe Silva was too timid, soft and lacked the courage and assertiveness that any good people manager needs, amongst other qualities.

Carlo Ancelotti is no mug, and is being dignified and respectful in the early days of his mission to see EFC, into better days.

Let's hope there's shrinks, priests etc hired to suss out future potential transfer targets and restore belief.

Such is the rotten demise of Everton football club.

Is this the bottom of the barrel, for EFC?

Hope eternal.

I don't think there is a single poster on here who would have played that fucking useless midfield partnership.

I don't want to hear people claiming I'm talking in hindsight. The dogs around Stanley park could have told you before a ball was kicked that we were fielding the most pedestrian of midfield against a team we knew would have an abundance of energy if nothing else. TW alone has been inundated with posters calling for them to be shipped out. . He didnt just play one of them. He played them both

There are people on here who don't seem to have the abilty to understand Ancelotti's CV was not created by playing with the dross we have here. They are treating his appointment as some sort of second coming. . . Hold your horses.
Ancelotti will need wholesale changes in the playing staff before he can begin to think about bringing this club success. Those who couldnt handle that brutal truth are now being faced with reality.

When you gamble the clubs future on a manager who has known great success though having the best players. You don't call for his removal until he has enough quality within his ranks to demonstrate he can do it here too. . . but Those who think he should not be held accountable while we assemble a squad of similar ability to the ones he has managed in the past are living in cuckoo land.

Ancelotti wont just become our manager AFTER or even IF we sign top talent..He hasnt been asked to wait in the stands until we can bring on the dancing horses. He is responsible NOW!. He is accountable NOW ! He is being paid 11.5m a year to manage the squad he inherited NOW !

Every manager is entitled to make a few mistakes in a new job. but that doesnt mean we have to pretend they were not mistakes. He made a couple of howlers on Sunday

It makes me laugh to hear people who were outraged at the suggestion that he would struggle with this caliber of player, now demanding others turn a blind eye to his errors. while he waits for the cavalry.

Its not happening. He will be judge on his performances after EVERY game from now on in

However I can't defend his tactics and the pussy footing around at the back instead of going direct to Calvert-Lewin and concentrating on winning the second balls.

Not a chance. Nor should anyone want him to.

He's going to assess the players himself in training (which he's had no chance to do) and on the pitch. And he's going to try various players in various positions in various alignments, and decide for himself what works and what doesn't.

So he played that crap partnership. He had to see for himself. And now he knows. And if he's as smart as we think, he won't do it again.

Blame? Yes, of course. That disaster was everybody's fault, his included. But he's gonna do lots more things we don't agree with, and some will work out and some won't.

Judge him after every game if you want. I'll judge him on where we are a year from now.

It's less relevant to tall about his previous clubs and the quality of player. Madrid and Bayern weren't JUST made up of peerless world class players they had good to average ones too, some differs as well. He is just as experienced in dealing with the variety of player we have at our disposal as he was handling Ronaldo.

What he's not used to dealing with is a culture of cowardice and inferiority, & self sabotage. It's that which dictates how much you can get out of any player good or bad.

Look no further that our neighbors, every player who didn't get on board was shipped out. The entire club is on board.

Ancelotti is the first manager in years we've had that has the standing in the game to dictate what he wants and the culture that drives it. Both the players and the board will I believe get on board or leave. He may not be the second coming but he's damn close.

Now I hear TW going mad over Sunday's debacle because he won't play direct. I've seen him for the last twenty years and he's never played direct. He will and he should continue the way he has been playing whether pain in the short term because that's how he will think we are going to compete at the top table. Any deviation from that is an admission he is the wrong appointment. You don't hire Fat Sam if you want tiki taka.

Secondly my big worry even before the match was his calming nature both in the presser and in his pre-match interview. Yes those fuckers should have been motivated of their own bat but the only time these muppets have lifted a leg is when they were shit scared of Dunc. Again we will soon hear our fans criticising Carlo but this is his way, he will face the same accusations as Silva.

We have to back him with how he sees the game played or sack him, we want your pedigree but we don't want your philosophy

I don't see what options he had in picking the team that started the game, Gomes and Gbamin are long term injuries and Davies is carrying a knock so who could he have played in central midfield.

Darren most fans knew that Ancelotti would need wholesale changes to this squad to gain any success, how could anybody build a successful team with the dross he has inherited. His CV is 2nd to none so lets not go down the road of kicking the most prolific trophy winner this club has ever appointed. And if he made such a mistake in selection and tactics then how come even with this side we could and should have scored 3 or 4 in the first half were I don't think they troubled Pickford.

The big fella was down to the bare bones against Chelsea. The injury list was chronic. Mina's absence meant he could'nt push Holgate into midfield as he did on other occasions. So yes it was the dreaded partnership, but Ferguson knew they would get murdered by chelseas promising youngsters, so for most of the game. He simply by-passed them. He played two up top and instructed his team to go back to front in a much more direct approach. Worked a treat.

Mike

I didnt say he should listen to anyone. I only pointed out that the dogs (and the cats for that matter) knew he was making a howler. without the benefit of hindsight.
Its going to be a long year for you if you are going to wait until the end of it before passing judgement on Ancelotti. Especially when you see most posters doing it game by game.
I suspect you and a few others have already indicated which way you will go. Your trumpets will blast when he wins. . and you will plead for more time when he doesnt.

Klopp was allowed to heap a mountain of pressure with his no lose plan. It should have been countered.
Holgate and Davies are vastly more experienced than their kids, but both are young enough to be considered their peers. They coudnt possibly have done worse than S&S.
I would also have played Kean up top. We have given him no chance by persistently putting him up against two vastly experienced center halves in the league. Yet when the opportunity comes where he can boost his confidence by showing what he can do against inexperienced younger defenders He sits on the bench

I can forget and I can't forgive

I hate them

As supporters we all assume that the players want to be playing in Europe and winning cups when the reality is it's the last thing some of them want.

I get the impression that there is a player culture at Everton where they know they are good enough to finish mid table but can't be arsed really trying to be successful as playing in Europe and with international games means they will hardly spend any time at home.

They would rather play weekends and train through the week so they can be home each night. Still pick up massive wages an don't get grief off the Mrs for never being around.

As Darren said Carlo did fuck up with s&s. Before the team came all the lads I was with wanted Davis an Holgate for their energy against what we thought would be a stronger Shite team.

But that second half, yes the midfield were shite and I never want to see them in an Everton shirt again but where are the leaders on the pitch, telling Pickford to stop playing it short, knock it long to DCL and get around him then play from there, not the greater at football but necessary.

It all screams an it's not my fault attitude from the players with no accountability. If that means fans rocking up at finch farm then I'm all for it. Maybe Carlo can explain what would have happened at the training ground if they had been playing for Milan

I will admit that, based on his past record, I am more optimistic about Carlo's eventual success than I have been about any of our previous manager hires since Moyes, but I'm not committing yet. For example, since we have only given up one corner kick goal in four games, Ancelotti is clearly the most brilliant manager we've had in years. However, as I said on the Forum, Carlo was to blame for that one goal because his defensive setup resulted in Siggy hopelessly man-marking Telephone Pole Carroll.

I want to see him through a couple of transfer windows, the long grind of games with 9th in the table at stake, and maybe some tough Cup ties before I decide whether he was the right manager signing or not. But after Martinez, Koeman and Silva, I will cheerfully concede that Ancelotti's hiring is the first to actually make me smile in a very, very long time.

but you have to accept that he will be judged after every single game.
This site runs 2-3-4 after match threads every time we play, Imagine those threads if everyone was to declare they are reserving judgement ? It`s not going to happen and I have a bottle of rest breast that says you will not be able to keep out of it

For what its worth I agree with you. Overall judgement should be put on ice. Assessment of his suitability after 3-4 transfer windows would be fairer and more accurate.

There are few things that could make us an even greater laughing stock than Sundays performance, Sacking Ancelotti after a season would be one of them. This is the route we have gone down. no backing out now - Not for any of us.

Des Farren @113.

"Both sides of the argument covered" ? wouldnt that be nice. I would argue I have neither side of the "argument" covered.

The article I submitted before Ancelotti was appointed amounted to no more than foolish crystal ball gazing. A "what If" scenario I put up to generate debate.
I gave my opinion (which hasnt changed) and invited others to give theirs. . . but now we are in the real world.

The proper "arguments" don't start until AFTER the games. Before we can argue about a result or a performance we need to have seen it.

I'd like to claim my - praise good performances/Criticise bad ones, was a novel approach, but I cant. Millions of fans have been doing it since the game began.

You should try it. It knocks spots off trying to tell others what they REALLY mean

All 4 of them not good enough.

I hope Carlo judges them accordingly now. Why Davies wasn't in that starting line up is beyond me.

As for tactics, I saw the much-publicised methods he used against them at Napoli. Defend deep, hit them on the counter. Three missed chances doing that in the first half. If you pass from the back you keep the ball moving and need people from midfield seeking the ball and taking it forwards. Nobody did that. I think Davies would have at least tried it.

For me, poor team selection, dreadful performance by the players. This could pan out very well if the club play it right. Here's hoping.

THE problem at Everton is that we have too many players who can put in a decent performance every now and again. We are so desperate for success that a few positive results get us fans fantasising about top 6, cup wins, Europe. Some of us even utter phrases like "bring on the derby". Remember under Silva when Pickford gifted Origi a winner? I still have nightmares about it although last weekend's performance has replaced it as my all-time derby horror show. A lot of us on these pages consoled ourselves after the Pickford fuck up by stating that the way we played would result in us finally turning the RS over the following season: we got beat 5-2 and they rested 6. We then lost to their kids after they rested 9. We got excited about 1 performance which was a defeat. This is the crux of the issue. The likes of Sigurdsson will score one "worldy" and that buys him time. I've read comments on these pages about Bernard being a great player and Sigurdsson being class. Pickford will make one good save every now and again. DCL finally takes a few chances and he's talking about playing for England. Hold on lad, you need to consistently start banging in goals for Everton first. The problem is that these players aren't good enough but our standards have gradually fallen. The Colin Harvey era would be looked on as a successful few seasons these days.

We need players who deliver week in, week out. Home and away. Players who roll their sleeves up when going a goal down not players who can't wait to get down the tunnel, into their Ferraris and home to their trophy wives. Not mercenaries who can choose when they turn up and regularly put in gutless performances and then spout platitudes in the local newspapers about how they'll turn things around for the next game. We need to start standing by our motto. This manager IS one of the best. The players are nowhere near the standard this club should accept and it's time we started letting them know.

When I read of players unrest, arguing with big Dunc after last Sunday, fans turning up at finch farm wanting to speak to certain players,the £100M loss in the financial year 2018/19, (it does make you wonder what guarantees Ancelotti was given regards any transfer budget), I really do worry that Ancelotti will think "What the fuck have I done", and call it a day. He needs time, at least five transfer windows, to turn things around. We just got to hope and pray that he's up for the challenge?

I read until Annika @ 3, and then just stopped.

All of those senior players mentioned by Lyndon should never play for this club again! Now is the time to give the kids their chance and see what we have got.

Can they possibly be any worse than Sigurdsson, Delph etc?

Nope. They can't. And none of those senior players should start (or possibly ever play) again.

I'd like to see Everton bring in a midfielder this January, and play young and for the future. Start building something while we watch the clock tick down on the veteran's contracts.

If they don't bring in a midfielder in January, I'd move Holgate into midfield and play Keane at CB next to Mina. Our problems are down to Theo, Siggy, Delph, and Schneids. Yup, that's midfield. Bin them, put Holgate in midfield, and let's see how motivated the veterans become after weeks of splinters in their ass.

You have the temerity to yell at a man who walked into an IMPOSSIBLE coaching situation, fraught with peril, negativity and toxicity brewing? A man who took that situation on, rekindled the soul of Everton Football Club, and had us playing some of the most inspiring football I personally have ever seen in my 14/15 years?

Just who in the holy fuck do you think you are?! Talk about THE NERVE!

Fuck every single one of the whiners out of Everton pronto.

Unfuckinbelievable!

TY, rant over.

This Club needs very brave leadership, and a pruning. Step up Carlo, this is why you have the reputation you do, and why you're paid a disgusting amount of money. You're worth it, grab your nuts and do what must be done.

1. Stay as we are and plod on.
2. Accept our fate and go down,hoping a new Blues team will be reborn playing in the Championship.
3. Buy a ready made team (International side folks,you know who,they play at home in Cardiff),then flesh it out using our youngsters and loaned out players.

Just pick one Blues!.

The total lack of openness and ability to operate on anything even approaching a professional level, in all aspects of running an elite level sporting business, was always going to result in the sorry, pathetic mess we are now in.

Not enough pressure has been put on the protagonists involved in the decline of standards at the club, it's been ignored or accepted for too long. Don't expect any help from the media, this has to be done by what's left of our support.

I only hope that we can stay up this season, not a given by any stretch of the imagination given the depths these clowns are plumbing, and hold a full and proper inquest into the events of the last 20 years of Everton.

Make no mistake, this is the worst crisis in the history of Everton Football Club – it's not a blip, bad luck or a run of poor form, it's sheer, unadulterated incompetence from the amateurs at the top running the club into the ground at every level. It's that serious.

I was in the Enclosure with my oldest mate (a red) that day and I was 15. I remember on the 68 on the way home feeling really inconsolable that we had been so easily torn to shreds, that we'd chased shadows for 90 minutes and not caught one of them. But I was little more than a child, and Liverpool were in their pomp, and they didn't field a combination of unknown teenagers and fringe players. And we had ten men. So on reflection it was fair enough that I was upset.

On Saturday evening, at the age of 52, I was close to tears at what I honestly believe to be Everton's lowest moment in a long history of low moments. Instead of answering the insult (which I for one took personally) that was casually thrown our way when the opposition team sheet was delivered, with a four or five goal hammering of those arrogant bastards, we proceeded to make a reserve team look like Brazil circa 1982. And we lost without even a hint of a fight.

Tomorrow (against Brighton) now seems irrelevant, to my mind at least. When acquaintances with only the barest knowledge of football are themselves embarrassed to mention Saturday evening's game to you for fear of causing further upset, you know the barrel is being well and truly scraped.

Even mediocrity looks to be well beyond the reach of the current crop of "stars" but then if ever a football club revelled in making a virtue of incompetence it's Everton. I will hold onto the memory of Reid, Steven, Bracewell and Sheedy to cheer me up, and try to imagine the havoc they would have wreaked last Saturday evening.